Name of Church Christ the King
Address 1800 Bedford Way, Bakersfield CA 93308
Phone number (661) 391-4640
Website www.christtheking.ws
Mass times Saturday vigil 4 & 6 p.m. (Spanish); Sunday 7:45 & 9:30 a.m., noon, 2 p.m. (Latin Tridentine). Daily, 7:15 a.m. Holy days, 7:15 a.m. & 6 p.m.
Confessions Saturdays, 10-11 a.m.
Names of priests Msgr. Stephen Frost, pastor. Daniel Rindge, deacon. Deacon Rindge has drawn some attention in recent years for his public defense of the Catholic faith on issues such as the ordination of women. He also contributes to the parish’s website; see the Catholic videos he’s posted on the homepage on religious liberty, Father Barron’s Catholicism, Catholics Come Home, and more.
School No.
Special parish groups Life Teen, Boy Scouts, Little Flowers Girls’ Club, Knights of Columbus, Ladies Guild, Prayer Blanket Ministry, Pro-Life
Music Choirs for weekend Masses.
Fellow parishioners Mostly an English-speaking community.
Parking No problem.
Acoustics Average. Christ the King is one of the few parishes that has a sign language interpreter who serves at the 9:30 a.m. Mass.
Cry room Yes, in rear on left.
Additional observations Christ the King is a parish of the diocese of Fresno in central California, about halfway between Los Angeles and Fresno. It was founded in 1952 and serves an area known for its farmland and oil production. Among its offerings are a Sunday Tridentine Mass (offered by one of the diocesan priests).
Prayer To Christ The King #1
Christ Jesus, I acknowledge You King of the universe.
All that has been created has been made for You.
Make full use of Your rights over me.
I renew the promises I made in Baptism,
when I renounced Satan and all his pomps and works,
and I promise to live a good Christian life
and to do all in my power
to procure the triumph of the rights of God
and Your Church.
Divine Heart of Jesus,
I offer you my efforts
in order to obtain that all hearts
may acknowledge your Sacred Royalty,
and that thus the Kingdom of Your peace
may be established throughout the universe.
Amen.
It is wondeful to learn that some parishes have both forms of the Mass. This is what Benedict XVI intended with Summorum Pontificum. Congratulations to the Diosece of Fresno. Perhaps it will be here in California where the Latin Mass is preserved for future generations.
How sad the article doesn’t properly documented history of the traditional Latin Mass community in Bakersfield. The traditional Latin Mass community is alive and well in Bakersfield thanks to God and the late Monsignor Ralph Belluomini.
Deacon Rindge seems a faithful spokesman regarding Catholic teachings and faith, including his directly on-point refutation of Valerie Schultz’s May 19, 2012, column, wrongly holding forth on women’s ordination. (It is over, Dear Feminists, and the answer is “No”.) Also, the Pastor is to be praised for having a regularly scheduled TLM, particularly in the Fresno Diocese with its anti-Tradition Bishop Ochoa. (One might quibble with the 2 pm start time for the TLM, but that is a minor point, given the commitment to have the regular mass.) Still, one cringes at what will happen to the Church with the announcement of new Cardinals by Pope Francis. Cardinal Muller? Really? He simply despises Tradition, or with any reconciliation with the SSPX, or any basis of Tradition. (No, it does not matter if he says a TLM now and then.) The small flames of passion for the true meaning of the Church, as is shown at Christ the King, are in serious danger. When Francis was first elected as Pope, many bishops, including those in Italy, asked him to “outlaw” the TLM, as it was divisive. “Cardinal” Muller, has also spoken out, in various ways, about the need to “control” Tradition — and now he gets to vote on the next Pope. The need to fight for the Faith, including doing battle with those that control the Church, has become even more important and necessary. The tragic excesses of the Vatican’s treatment of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate promises to become more the norm — perhaps a kind of Catholic “Kristallnacht.”
Your arms are too short to box with God.
And your arms/mind are too short to box Him in, Anonymous, so stop already. God works where He wills….. not you. God bless you in your Pharisaical embracing of the letter of the law.
You would see people outside the Church if only to be right/righteous. You might do well to reread the Old Testament as concerning those who were given ‘control’ over the chosen people.
There is one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Indeed, the Mystical Body of Christ!
Yes, as in this teaching of the Church from prior to Vatican II:
MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI (On the Mystical Body of Christ)
Pope Pius XII
Encyclical promulgated on 29 June 1943
22. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. “For in one spirit” says the Apostle, “were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free.”[17] As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith.[18] And therefore if a man refuse to hear the Church let him be considered—so the Lord commands—as a heathen and a publican.[19] It follows that those are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.
God bless you – yet again – in your Pharisaical embracing of the letter of the law, Anonymous. You are obviously in the safe and secure zone by that standard. Bully for you.
But question, if you’re such a faithful adherent to Catholic hierarchy and the teaching and authority and example – the very same you advocate the laity should not question or call out in any way for fear of sinning – why is it that you have such a thing for me?
I mean, if Cardinal O’Malley, one of His Holiness’s new gang of eight, can not only submit to, but ask for a baptismal anointing from a Methodist Ministress in a highly public forum, on what basis do you preach here about what constitutes Catholic Truth? Scandal? Or anything?
Good grief. In for a penny, in for a pound. You cannot have it both ways and be credible, Anonymous. Take a lesson from the men you are so eager to defend and be generous in your outreach. Blur the lines if there are any anymore. Speak out both sides of your mouth… or seem to so as to confuse everybody.
Or at the very least give yourself a name. Parroting shut-up answers won’t convert a soul. Or help you to understand the wounds of those you supposedly desire to heal.
So you disagree with Pope Pius XII? Millions of people do, I guess. Catholics obey. (There is nothing wrong with the “letter of the law.” It is forgetting the heart of the law that is wrong.) I don’t know what the rest of your post means.
And God knows, Ann Malley and many many others here rant against others who do not conform to the letter of the law, to the extent that they believe that the entire Church can be condensed into the CCC and Canon Law. Oh, and GIRM.
Anonymous, I don’t know what you mean or precisely what you are addressing when you make statements like’…our arms being too short to box with God.’
Are you saying that the repression of the TLM amounts to fighting God or are you saying that promotion of the TLM is fighting God.
Your post seem to indicate that one should not resist the modern push that goes for a taffy pull on the spirit of the law. Confusing the heart to no end.
That is why I wonder where yours is. That is why I wonder what your reaction is to learning that one of the Cardinals Pope Francis just elected to his new advisory board (the gang of eight) has just engaged in the above outlined ecumenical ‘outreach.’
As for, ‘Catholics obeying,’ Catholics obey that which is lawful to obey. Not everything exacted by a superior is due lawful obedience, Anonymous.
You rightly say, “…There is nothing wrong with the “letter of the law.” It is forgetting the heart of the law that is wrong.”
That last bit is precisely why there are those Catholics, good Catholics, mind you, who are fighting to retain the heart of the law. The Spirit. Not because everything is hunky dory, but rather because it is not, and if the laity just idles along with ‘Catholics obey,’ the heart, the spirit, the Faith will be systematically removed in those parishes where the letter, that is shut-up regarding constant innovation, reigns supreme.
Yes, YFC, there are those who specifically quote the letter of the law. That said, I was not negating the letter, but only the upholding of the letter to the negation of the Spirit of the law. You know that.
The Spirit of the law regarding sodomy is clear. As in – don’t engage in it. Don’t promote it. That is why you ranting over how you conform to the letter while promulgating the acceptance of sodomy and all that goes with it is so obviously contradictory.
Saying that sodomy isn’t good for a body and/or the proper usage thereof and can confuse children when that is promoted as the ‘family’ model is something that can be said outside of anything religious. It’s a physical observation. So God bless you with the mention of the CCC, GIRM, and Canon Law. These underscore the obvious reality in this area.
God bless!
Ann Malley, you asked me my reaction to Cardinal O’Malley’s asking for the water on his head from the Methodist minister. My reaction was “Are you kidding me?” Same as my reaction to the one who laid flowers on a hindu altar. “What’s up with that?’ I don’t idolize priests, bishops, cardinals, even the Pope. You need to know your faith and practice it. My parish rocked a strong Protestant vibe at one time. I remember going before the Blessed Sacrament and telling Jesus “I don’t care if no one else believes in you. I do.” I am not responsible for the behavior of those men just because I am Catholic. Being Catholic is not an endorsement of any person’s behavior. It is following the Lord in the manner He Wills. I don’t let other people’s errors or misdeeds get in the way or run me off.
Great, Anonymous, I’m glad you had that reaction to the scenarios outlined in my previous post. I’m glad you believe and haven’t been allowed to ‘run off.’ That’s God’s grace at work. Fabulous. Give great thanks for that.
As for knowing the Faith and practicing it, that is precisely what I am doing, too. And going with the grace that God has given me to that end. That said, while you seem to be a strong, big fish, I’m a little one who needs to avoid the occasion. Much like I need to watch what I eat. This is likely why Our Lord has led me to where I am today. Protection. His protection.
You may consider that as running away, but again, you haven’t received the same graces as I have and/or been exposed to the same trials. God bless!
Ann Malley, with all due respect, (and I do mean that sincerely), I have probably spent a great deal more time in both prayer and intellectual pursuit of the spirit of Church law regarding homosexuality than you have. And to me, the spirit of Christian spirituality regarding the sexual life stems entirely from the statement during creation, “It is not good that man be alone”. If you believe these words, which are repeated at the beginning of the Catechism when it introduces the section of sexual morality, you understand and believe that spirit. Those who obsess about celibacy for gay people say exactly the opposite: “Unless you are alone, you cannot achieve salvation.” Tell me which position is more in keeping with the spirit of the Church’s moral teachings, the words of the Creator, or the words of the obsessed ones?
God bless you, YFC, for your prayerful discernment/searching. And I mean that, too. That said, “…It is not good for man to be alone,” does not only equate to a sexual situation. There is friendship as you know. It isn’t good for man to be alone. But sodomy is not the answer – as the Creator speaks out against that as well.
There are countless heterosexual couples that are called, after life’s myriad happenings, to lead a celibate life. It isn’t easy. Not at all on the purely physical level. Or the emotional level. It often *seems* highly unfair and unnaturally evil and waaay too difficult – that’s one reason why ‘annulments’ have done nothing but skyrocket. People are thinking on the human level, not that of what God calls us to.
That is why the cross of SSA, if embraced generously, can be one of the most meaningful offerings one can make to God. Giving your whole person. Don’t forget, there is a bar against sodomy for heterosexuals as well because it leads to the misuse of the marriage bed. Lack of generosity in giving back the fruits of one’s labor.
Also, if you consider the phrase you quoted as coming from the Creator, should you not consider all the words that came from Him? Or do you believe that the words of Christ and St. Paul are ‘obsessed’ ones? I’m really trying to get a handle on your position because many of the things you’ve said – especially lately with regard to your mention of Martin Luther’s position regarding sacramental marriage – do not sound Catholic at all.
Ann Malley, I (and many others I have talked to) found that anytime we were being upset by error or started to question things, God always sent a person or a book to help us. This was in the days before the internet. The Blessed Mother will not let you go astray. You are under her mantle. Two things I have noticed: your image of the Catholic Church is quite distorted, almost like a caricature. Also, you seem to think that I am personally going after you and really, I’m not. So I wonder whether our Lady is trying to nudge you. None of us know what is ahead of us. Every time we say the Hail Mary, she really does pray for us at that moment and she will pray for us at the hour of our death. I had an experience that I will share with you. A fallen away Catholic (really-one Mass in 30 years) thought they were dying so we were praying the Rosary but I could not feel Mary’s presence. The person did not die that night. The following week, the person thought they were dying and we didn’t really believe it and were just trying to make them comfortable. Suddenly, I felt Mary’s presence. We started praying urgently and the person died very suddenly. I know this person prayed the 54 day Rosary Novena as a child. You may have said a prayer that is being answered now.
Anonymous, yes, there are may factors in my past that would correlate to a miraculous ‘save’ thanks to the Blessed Virgin Mary. There is, in Truth, no other explanation. That is why this caricature of which you speak is not one of my creation, but rather that which is presenting itself all over the world. The very same I avoid by God’s grace. That self-same grace funneled my way by Our Lady’s glorious intercession. You have no idea as your viewpoint is from the ground up, not looking from the top down at the maze of life like the Blessed Mother.
All of the books I have been ‘moved’ to read, and I will not tire you with a list, are indeed those solid Catholic volumes that encourage me to be right where I am. The same holds true for the people Our Lord has been kind enough to set in my path.
Having said as much, you may want to seriously consider – and I mean this in all sincerity – that Our Lady is specifically giving you an encounter here with someone who attends the SSPX as the vehicle to open your eyes and heart to the Truth that the Society is accomplishing on behalf of God and the Blessed Virgin that which They desire. The spread of the fullness of Faith in teaching and practice.
In other words, thanks to your prayers, She is giving you the opportunity to meet those who actually attend the SSPX so that you may see/experience the fraternity with your cause. If only in spurring those ‘in full communion’ to finally yield to the Truth and allow the practice of Tradition.
That said, you may want to readdress the idea of viewing institutions as caricatures. For you are viewing the Society in caricature which is wholly unfair, but more importantly, it does you no service in recognizing those who, in reality, should be your dearest friends.
Ann Malley, it is the name of a Broadway musical about the Gospel of Matthew. It is taken from a old sermon:
Young man-
Young man-
Your arms too short to box with God.
But Jesus spake in a parable, and he said:
A certain man had two sons,
Jesus didn’t give this man a name,
But his is God Almighty.
And Jesus didn’t call these sons by name,
But every young man,
Every where,
Is one of these two sons .
I wrote it because St. Christopher said that he was doing battle with those who control the Church. God controls the Church such as He wills.
I can’t say that I really understood your reply but it seemed as if you were saying that there were other churches that were also part of God’s plan. All Salvation comes through the Catholic Church. The disunity of Christians is not God’s will. All other churches were founded by a man; only the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ. There are other Churches such as Eastern Orthodox which are in schism. They have retained apostolic succession. There are hundreds of “alternative Catholic Churches” which retain the ecclesiastical elements of the Church but have their own beliefs. They are not really Catholic churches because there is ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH. It is necessary to hold that belief. To believe in or to start one’s own version of the Catholic Church is the sin of schism and schism always involves heresy. I am not saying you or St. Christopher do this. Your post just seemed like a middle finger to the Church’s teaching, but I really didn’t understand what you said.
Thanks for getting back, Anonymous. While I can appreciate your sentiments, you should read back through the history of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church to gain a clearer view about the factions within her. Factions that have done battle for a long time.
In times of crisis, life isn’t as easy as I-get-my-underwear-at-KMart. Not when they are closing all the KMarts nationwide and shutting down the elastic factories. That said, the objective of the Church is saving souls and that is why She often supplies in such times. She doesn’t use the rule of law to expel those who have practiced what She has always taught.
Nobody is advocating ‘creating their own church’ or ‘creating their own beliefs’ rather holding true to that which has always been taught. That which is still taught, Anonymous, but supposedly is constantly misunderstood by media and the promoting of men who make scandalous offerings to idols and mislead the masses with their false ecumenism.
That said, your posts seem rather like a middle finger to those folks that actually understand the Faith very well and are trying their darnedest to protect and uphold it.
Anonymous,
k – anonymous – kanonymous, Your duplicity and ambiguity have finally caught up with you. You cannot serially coddle and enable sin by defending and running interference for homosexual activists on a faithful Catholic website and then suddenly claim to be a lone bastion of upholding Catholic teaching at your parish. The only reasonable or acceptable excuse for your duplicitous behavior would be a non- blaming diagnosis of schizophrenia. Your co-activism with homosexual activists has almost as many posts as your denials of ever having done that. Unlicensed physician heal thyself and select a name so your pattern style of undermining the Truth is properly called out for what it truly is. Slithery and duplicitous!
Ann Malley, I really have tried not to make this personal. This isn’t really about you. In one post you say that you don’t know the Faith well enough to attend where error may be present and in another post you say that you understand the Faith very well, so I don’t know and it is not my business what your issues are or where you go to Mass or if you go to Mass. My intention with this article was to post a prayer and you also gave me the opportunity to post a papal writing on the Mystical Body of Christ. I don’t even know why you are called me a Pharisee and saying stuff about the letter of the law. I assumed it was because you did not like what Pope Pius XII wrote. You started in with insults and I really hadn’t done anything to you. I tried to be nice about it and kind of blow it off and some other guy starts being nasty and going on about the SSPX and how I’m anathemizing people and now some other person is calling me schizophrenic and gay. This is nuts! Definitely wacky!
Got issues? Ya think?
Thank you, Catherine, for pointing out an increasingly clear call to charity in dealing with Anonymous. He/she seems to suffer from something. Seriously. That’s the only explanation for the blatant disconnect.
God bless!
Anonymous, I never said I didn’t *know* the Faith well enough, I said I was a little fish. That is I need to be surrounded by and steeped in the actual practice of the Faith. One can know something is right and yet be influenced in practice by that which is all around. Think of the Grand Canyon.
As to ‘issues,’ perhaps you are not the famed Anonymous that stalks CCD. Sadly, however, there is an ‘Anonymous’ poser, I mean poster, who has ruined the moniker Anonymous as he/she has taken it as a shield against his/her own inconsistency and anything close to true dialogue.
So if you are a new Anonymous, my apologies, if not (and sorry, Anonymous, but even your post proclaiming misunderstanding is frequently used by this odd individual) please seek help. Or give yourself a name so that there can be some progress in even the most basic discussions.
God bless.
Ann Malley, You are welcome! Yes, there is most definitely a blatant disconnect and similar to YFC, these deliberate patterns have been there since his/her very first post. There is definitely a reason why k-anonymous wants to now silence you and others who do speak up. Through the merciful merits of Jesus Christ crucified and the joyous awakening of your own greatest contrition and sorrow, Jesus is now allowing you to cooperate and beautifully use those splendid gifts on CCD that He had initially always given to you via your parent’s willing cooperation with God’s grace. Your humility is rooted in Christ and humility is the powerful horse that enables the pulling of that uniquely carted gift of expression. Life marinates but Christ mercy tenderizes all who are willing to pick up their crosses to follow Him. As Tracy earlier stated, God has given you a remarkable and uncommon ability to express the Truth. These Truths awaken the slumbering and threaten the enemies of the Church. Many roads lead to Rome (just look at St. Augustine) and many who are falsely accused have never left Rome to begin with. Yes, in many cases it IS the accusers who have left Rome. THERE is the deliberately intended disconnect that is anonymously plaguing Christ’s Church.
Luke 18: “But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth? [9] And to some who trusted in themselves as just, and despised others, he spoke also this parable: [10] Two men went up into the temple to pray: the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.[11] The Pharisee standing, prayed thus with himself: O God, I give thee thanks that I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, as also is this publican”
continued….
Continued from January 16, 1:13pm post
Ann Malley, The Fullness of the Truth has always threatened the father of lies and his agents bearing ambiguity, chaos and confusion. Feigning loyalty is not being in “full communion” and this feigning of being in “full communion” simply flies out the window when reading kanonymous’s many strategically disloyal, (also known as), ambiguous posts. Anonymous would have no ability to protect the current state of deliberately planned confusion if he/she did not somewhat partially feign being “in full communion” Inconsistent and ambiguous posting actions always speak much louder than pretending to be in “full communion” while beating up others who expose the serially diabolical pattern of how the Church is currently being attacked from within.
CCD published an article on April 13, 2012 Titled ‘It Was Fabulous Darling’
USD’s Drag show goes on despite protests. Please check out the entire thread of comments by kanonymous and read the same pattern of duplicity that you are presently being attacked with. Here are some of the responses back then.
‘It Was Fabulous Darling’
Posted Sunday April 22, 2012 by k-anonymous
“JLS, Maybe the problem isn’t my inconsistency. I have noticed on some other articles that somme posters only discuss certain subjects no matter what the article is about. They discuss homosexuality, abortion, the USCCB or the Latin Mass. And they can do that. But it is trolling if I continue to discuss the issue.”
Continued from January 16, 1:29 pm post
CCD Topic ‘It Was Fabulous Darling’
Ann Malley, Here are two responses to k-anonymous’s deliberate brand of disconnect. JLS and Larry both responded to k-anonymous.
Posted by JLS on April 22, 2012 8:54 am
No k, that is not what it is being pointed out. It is not a topic issue that is being pointed out. Half the time your posts are rational, and half the time they go haywire. In the case of the haywire posts, you often have good points to discuss but your rhetoric makes no sense and often seems to contradict logic or a reasonable evaluation of the facts that you try to explain. Looks like “mood swings” two weeks on and two weeks off, very patterned.
Posted Tuesday, April 24, 2012 8:13 PM By Larry
K: You seem excessively concerned over people’s mode of expression to the exclusion of the ideas being expressed–to the point where you risk, I think, falling into Pharisaism. Jesus at times used language far harsher than most of us even attempt here primarily against those who vigorously objected to His ministry because of a host of technicalities, such as the fact that He’d cured a sick person on the Sabbath–even as they themselves had abandoned all pretense of charity. Whether you’re talking about religious or secular matters, it is an ugly and obnoxious vice, not a virtue, to love the rules more than the purpose the rules are meant to uphold (and I’ve met people like that.) Such a person is pleasing neither to other people nor to God, as Jesus made clear with the Pharisees. It reminds me of the scene from one of the Pink Panther movies where Peter Seller’s Inspector Clouseau harasses a sidewalk organ grinder for city ordinance violations while through a window we can see armed robbers looting a bank only a few feet away. Let’s not get obsessed with nit picking.
Each post is distinct. It doesn’t matter who writes it. There is a temptation when one thinks they know the person from what they post. YFC came here to call you out on your inconsistency in saying that he has to hold to all Catholic standards when you yourself do not. One has to fight that temptation. I think I have fallen for it here, too.
Not sure where in this lovely, long thread my post to you got filed, Anonymous, but there you are clouding issues again. (And missing out on any hints of humor, sarcasm, and – well – and anything short of a hammer upside the head.)
Avoiding the occasion of sin and seeking out the fullness of Catholic teaching – within the Catholic Church – during times of crisis is not the same as advocating for homosexual marriage and the baptism of sodomy.
You can call yourself out on a whopper misconception if you do think they are the same. In addition to your ongoing assumption that you not only know everybody on this thread, but everything. So, yes, I’d agree you have fallen into that temptation.
Catherine, thank you for helping me to understand the ins and outs of k-Anonymous. I very much appreciate the deep-dive necessary to give a clear picture. Your access of particulars is amazing. What a place to learn!
I’ll visit ‘It Was Fabulous Darling’ to better educate myself.
Thanks again and God bless!
Wow! I just read the, ‘It was fabulous, Darling,’ thread and was it informative. I can see very clearly now why ‘k’ ‘k-Anonymous’ and now ‘Anonymous’ believes that God has led him/her to hide in the shadows based on previous treatment. That is his/her treatment of all rational thought and Catholic thinking. Hamster wheel anybody?
Talk about your false prophets. Reminds me of a homosexual activist troll promoting the Boy Scouts gay agenda on Yahoo. Dang! Dang! And double-Dang!
Thank you again for the deep-dive explanation, Catherine. God bless!
You are very welcome and God bless you too Anne Malle!y It is always helpful to know when we are dialoguing with the strategic slitherings of ambiguity and duplicity.
Thank God for parishes like Christ the King. May there be many more like that. I also attend a lovely church called Our Lady of Mt. Carmel in Littleton, CO on Hickory Circle and Powers. It is a medium sized gothic church and has tridentine Masses said by the Fraternity of St. Peter. Look up the site if you come to our area. http://www.olmcfssp.org.
Great to see the TLM there Deo Gratias, and ALL BOYS on the roster for servers as it should be. And yes the continued destruction of The Franciscans of The Immaculate continues, now they need a “permit” from the Vatican to say the TLM no joke folks check out Rorate’s blog and see it with your own eyes please pray hard for The Franciscans of The Immaculate this is just scary!!!!
This parish caters to the needs of those that want the NO and those who want to worship using the TLM. That is the way it should be. Both are very good ways to worship. The recent elevation of new Cardinals represents the new reality for the church. Most Catholics are in the southern hemisphere. The U.S. represents only about 6% of the world’s Catholics, yet we have @10% of the Cardinals. Europe, where churches are empty are loosing their influence at the Cardinal level. I doubt that the folks in equatorial Africa are clamoring for Latin masses, but I don’t know. I would predict, that we will see less and less of the TLM in the next twenty years. But, it is nice that this parish serves it’s parishioners with both worship formats.
The SSPX Churches in Africa are growing exponentially, Bob One. The newest being in Nigeria. (People need to be taught about that which is good – much like all humans do.) That said, as long as the Society is around, I don’t think the TLM is going anywhere as dioceses will always feel the need to compete.
That’s why last month’s, ‘Churches worth driving to,’ was St. Catherine’s in Veneta, OR. Nothing but competition. Not a tender yielding to the pastoral needs of the people.
You see, the town itself is tiny and yet the traditional community at St. Thomas Becket, the SSPX Chapel, is about three times the size as the whole of St. Catherine’s, maybe more. Families move regularly to Veneta, OR to partake of the traditional parish life offered at St. Thomas Becket. The town is really growing now, much thanks to the solid Catholics moving there and building it up. The same scenario plays out all across the United States. An interesting pattern.
But hey, if it promotes Traditional worship which, in turn, advocates traditional values, solid catechism, staying CATHOLIC, and seeking sanctity out of Love of God, (for young and old alike) I say, THANKS BE TO GOD!
Are you the same Ann Malley that just dissed traditional values and staying catholic in the post above?
What is traditional about asking for baptismal anointing from Methodist ministeresses, Anonymous? And if you still don’t ‘get’ what I’m talking about, it may be good for you to read a little about what is actually going on in the modern Church in America and across Europe.
That said, you may want to rethink what it means to ‘diss’ traditional values and staying Catholic. Retaining the Faith extends beyond pay, pray, and obey.
Interesting that if you take your comment Ann M about a burgeoning SSPX in Africa with Bob One’s comments. So here we have the lessoning influence of Europe with the rise of the periphery. That gets multiplied with Francis emphasis on the periphery. Just look at his consistory!
A perfect opportunity, as it were, to appoint Cardinals from these regions. Yet if it is SSPX who is creating converts South of the Equator, they will not be represented among future Consistories, so long as they cling to their own decision to refuse reunification with Rome. If I were an SSPX ‘political operative’, I’d reune with Rome so that Francis could appoint princes from within my own ranks.
If the SSPX were out for political gain then the tactics you propose would be spot on, YFC. Thing is, the Society, at least as far as I can discern, comes from the position of believing the deposit of Faith and the Spirit of the Law. And opting to have their actions underscore that position.
That said, the SSPX is a growing influence, but one that will not compromise with modernity like – say – Cardinal O’Malley who asks publicly for baptismal anointing from Methodist ministeresses or offering flowers to Hindu idols as the newly proclaimed Cardinal Vincent Nichols did in ’09.
While the above mentioned Princes have their agenda of ecumenism (Conversion, I hope, but doubt.) they do confuse the faithful as well as the non-Catholics they are supposedly trying to reach. (With what, I don’t know if everyone is supposedly ‘okay’ where they are.) But wouldn’t opting for letting your ‘yes mean yes and your no mean no’ go a lot further in the long run. I mean, the Apostles were not political wranglers. They just said it the way it is.
So political posturing may seem the very logical, human course of action when trying to influence a group – it isn’t the most Godly way.
It will be the other way around Bob One, the man made Novus Ordo will be buried in the asheep of history and The True Mass of All Times will prevail.
” I would predict, that we will see less and less of the TLM in the next twenty years. ” You mean you hope to see less and less of the TLM,,, sorry to disappoint you Bob One, it will out live you and the NO
“So you disagree with Pope Pius XII? Millions of people do, I guess. Catholics obey”: So alleges Anonymous. In the ascerbic responses to Ann Malley and others by those who enthusiastically (now) wrap themselves in the papal flag, I see a pattern: Marginalize orthodox (traditional) Catholic belief “from the center” by quoting selective Catholic teaching. For example, quoting “at” someone some lines from Mystici Corporis (1943); or alleging or inferring the SSPX are “in schism” –even though since 2005 through 2012, Card Dario Castrillon Hoyos, the head of the Ecclesia Dei commission has repeatedly said they are not [ Feb 8th, 2007 interview: “The bishops, priests and faithful of the Society of St Pius X are not schismatics. It is Archbishop Lefebrve who has undertaken an illicit Episcopal consecration and therefore performed a schismatic act. It is for this reason that the Bishops consecrated by him have been suspended and excommunicated. The priests and faithful of the Society have not been excommunicated. They are not heretics.” ] Traditional Catholics scare people like Anonymous and YFC — it isnt clear why — and so the latter have to find “reasons” to rationalize their negative animus. Mind you, these are the same people who laud Vatican II for its “ecumenism” to other Christian sects (Lumen Gentium) and demand total allegiance to V2 as though it is infallible (but not all acts of a Council are infallible, sorry: ex., Chalcedon defined the 2 natures in Christ, but many of its acts are denunciations and deposings of other Church Fathers in shameful fashion, hardly infallible material.) Arguments about the “infallibility” en toto of V2 by its proponents are based on V2’s documents—a tautology, or circular argument. How does that work?
It doesnt: and both John XXIII and Paul VI went to pains to avoid declarations of “anathema” upon those who dont accept this Council. No problem: Anonymous and YFC will supply the anathematic declarations.
Steve Phoenix, I am a traditional Catholic. I am not afraid of traditionalist catholics; I pray for them. Many are deceived. You will notice that the other poster uses Vatican II concepts like ecumenism and the Protestant concepts like the invisible Church to justify her attendance at non-Catholic chapels. SSPX chapels are not Catholic. They do not claim to be. SSPX is not in formal schism. The SSPX priests are suspended not excommunicated. It is not a sin to attend an SSPX Mass or even one at a sedevacantist or other independent chapel. One must find out for sure whether it fulfills our Sunday obligation so that we do not find ourselves committing the grave sin of not worshipping on Sunday. I declare no one anathema. No lay person has that ability. I am sure that you know that and were just being mocking and insulting. I will pray for you, too. God sets boundaries for our good.
Anonymous, you still do not understand do you? The other poster, me, uses the Vatican II ecumenism argument to show you that you are not such a wonderful follower of those God has allowed to rule the Church. And being part of the Mystical Body of Christ is not a Protestant concept when one is practicing that which the Church has always taught, avoiding novelty as the occasion of sin that it is. The occasion that it has proved to be in one’s life. (But again, if you were a true follower of current Church leadership, at least as it is expressed at parish level, you would be loving and kind and non-judgmental of me. You are not.)
For whatever reason, you’ve got a hot button for SSPX and anyone that doesn’t do the diocesan approved route on which God has mercifully placed you. (Maybe because you husband has forbid you attending such or you made that decision yourself. Or because you had another option. I don’t know.) But contrary to what you personally believe, SSPX Chapels are Catholic. You can argue till you turn blue and will not change that fact.
But you do Tradition and the restoration of Tradition no service whatever in pitting yourself against those that love Christ, love our Holy Mother Church, and suffer a many an injustice by folks just like YOU. Folks who do not take into account that very clearly Our Lord is making use of the Society to bring traditional practice back to the people – even if it is diocese finally relenting to get people away from the SSPX.
Be thankful, Anonymous. Look around you at the broader picture of Faith and what that means outside of blind obedience.
Or maybe you choose to attend a Church in full Communion with Rome. #justsayin
You’ve completely lost me, YFC. That said, you seem to be more intent on full communion as it pertains to structure than what the structure is meant to house.
Please note the comment of Card Edward Cassady, head of the Pont. Council on Christian Unity, Jan 20, 2005 (posted also below) in which he summarily states that the SSPX are within the Church and therefore Catholic: ““The situation of the members of this Society is an internal matter of the Catholic Church. The Society is not another Church or Ecclesial Community in the meaning used in the Directory. Of course the Mass and Sacraments administered by the priests of the Society are valid. The [SSPX] Bishops are validly, but not lawfully, consecrated…. I hope this answers your letter satisfactorily.”
Haahaaa. I’m not scared by SSPX, and I don’t declare anathematizations. I just know what the true status of this group, and the harms to the Church that they bring.
Glad you know the true status, YFC, unlike many who are your spiritual superiors. I wonder how you’d judge your own status with regard to agitating against the true nature of marriage as outlined by Christ. And, no, you’re not just talking about ‘civil marriage’ when, in other threads, you call into question the validity of marriage even being a Sacrament and use Martin Luther’s doubts as your backup.
Dear Ann M: (more about that name below): You are trying to change the subject and get it back on your desired track with respect to the status of gay people and against people who dissent with respect to the teachings of the Ecumenical Council Vatican II.
I will take your bate, because you cite an example where you misunderstand me: My reference to the historicity of sacramental marriage had nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not the Church should stand in the way of civil marriage. I believe, as I have posted here before, that whatever you believe about the sacramental nature of marriage, that if you are a true American bound by the Constitution, that you can support the issuance of civil marriage licenses to same sex couples without compromising either your faith beliefs about sacramental marriage or your opinions about the morality of same sex relations. You can do so, for example, because you believe that children are better protected when marriage licenses are granted to those who are raising children. See this for example: https://www.wistv.com/story/24449024/disabled-boy-pays-the-price-for-parents-same-sex-marraige
Nobody is trying to change the subject, YFC. I’m just trying to understand your desire to call in the Editors to silence Vatican II discussion while seemingly wanting to allow your own dissenting views to be given full air time. It is a curiosity. Much the same as your calling into question whether or not folks are ‘true Americans.’ As one should place God above the State. Otherwise we’d just devolve into the Nazi mindset. (Nazi first, Catholic second?)
Sorry Ann M: I forgot to add the part about the name as I promised above!
Folks here use YFC to refer to me. I take it as pretty neutral. (I could choose to use it against people who refuse to recognize that, as Their Fellow Catholic, I sit next to them in the pews every Sunday. But I choose to think it is a neutral moniker, and so I don’t make an issue of it.)
It feels awefully formal to always refer to you as Ann Malley. In the first place, if that is your real name, I respect you for using your real name. Secondly, I am reluctant to abbreviate it because I don’t want to minimize your presence here. I have used shortcuts for others, and I felt in retrospect that I was disrespecting them, even if unintentionally so.
So I just want to ask you, do you prefer that I use your full name when I address you here, or do you have a preferred shortcut/moniker. Perhaps AM ?
I don’t mind what you call me, YFC. AM would be fine. No minimization. That said, there is another Ann on CCD, I think she spells her name with a ‘e’, so better to identify me with something that has an ‘m’ somewhere.
You are not a fellow Catholic YFC, you are a dissident and evil heretic, who deserves a heretics fate.
Canisius, you may refer to me as Your Fellow Catholic, however much your incessant threats and hateful language may jeopardize your own standing in the Church.
Ahh YFC, my standing is in no jeopardy, the difference between you and me is that I admit to being a sinner, you on other hand celebrate and demand affirmation of yours, you still refuse to state whether you believe sodomy is a sin, you have never been and never will be a fellow catholic YFC, you contain the worst kind of false piety, while spreading deceit, lies and dissent….
Thanks, Anonymous, but I think YFC would prefer to defend himself if that’s the best you can do. God bless!
Sorry, I think this is my third response, which I really try to avoid: For the record, I actually DO agree that marriage is sacramental. I just was pointing out that the historical evidence that it was treated as a sacramental is sketchy. I would even go beyond those opinions that, when the Church does its pre-Cana work, that that is among its most important work in American society. It highlights aspects of the marital relations that, frankly, the secularists ignore.
I’d go a step further, YFC, in saying that catechizing children in the fullness of faith and self sacrifice and mortification and the sense of duty is what prepares them for pre-Cana. Sadly, much of this ‘formation’ has been lacking which is why the pre-Cana specific work is so necessary.
Many ‘Catholics’ who attempt sacramental marriage have been left to hang in a debauched me-centric culture since their Confirmation as to the nature of what they are called to do/be as Catholics. The focus being not giving offense as a Catholic rather than being a Catholic witness being the norm.
That said, bringing up the so called ‘sketchy’ aspects of the Sacramental nature of marriage is no endorsement or witness to one’s belief in it. Rather it works in the opposite, especially when it comes to understanding your actual position on the matter.
AM I mostly agree with your above post, except where you rearrange my words to pretend that I posted things that I did not. You won’t find me using the word “sketchy” to modify the noun “the sacramental nature of marriage” as you pretend that I did. I referred to the HISTORICITY as being sketchy. Please try to quote me more accurately!
No pretending, YFC, so you have my apology for any perceived misrepresentation of your meaning.
Even so, I find your use of the word sketchy with regard to the historicity of marriage an interesting choice of one who is so solidly behind sacramental marriage.
…. and the ‘harm’ brought to the Church is consistent Catholic teaching and morality without compromise. Compromise with the world that you seem very eager for, YFC.
“Haahaaa.” = reaction with pitchfork in hand
Miraculous Medal Prayer
O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee, and for those who do not have recourse to thee, especially the enemies of the Church and those recommended to thee. Amen.
Fatima’s Angel Prayer
Oh Most Holy Trinity,
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,
I adore Thee profoundly.
I offer Thee the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity
of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world,
in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and
indifferences by which He is offended.
By the infinite merits of the Sacred Heart of Jesus
and the Immaculate Heart of Mary,
I beg the conversion of poor sinners.
Amen.
With the Blessed Sacrament suspended in the air, the Angel of Peace prostrated himself and recited this prayer during the third apparition to the children in 1916.
The Prayer of the Miraculous Medal is “O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to Thee.”
I have searched every legitimate website and source that I can find and I do not find the version that you use. I found it on one website that associated it with Saint Maximilian Kolbe. I do not find it on any reputable website on Saint Maximilian or those of the Militia Immaculata that he founded. The other website said he wrote it after seeing Freemasonry in the Vatican, but if you have read his writing you know that what he saw was not in the Vatican but under the Vatican window. It was a banner that showed St. Michael under the feet of the devil. Horrible! In the end, Mary’s Immaculate Heart will triumph.
God Bless you Catharine!
Steve Phoenix, thank you and God bless you. Your clarity, true charity, and unabashed chivalry are so very welcome.
Judging from the comments above, it would seem the notion of the SSPX being in Africa came as a surprise to YFC. Likely the same could be said for Anonymous and Bob One. I wonder if they have any idea of the Traditional numbers in Europe. Not that numbers come before Truth. But Truth will always out.
Thanks again for being there!
Traditional Catholics are a balm on the wounds of the Mystical Body of Christ as long as they stay in full Communion with the Church.
When they leave to worship in chapels and parishes that are not in full communion, they cause pain as Jesus limbs are distended, each bone out of its socket but still hanging by skin and sinew.
Those who pray for their return slowly ease the pain of Jesus and bring the bones back into place.
God bless you, Anonymous, but you are stubborn in your politicspeak. What of those ‘Catholics’ who actually learn what it means to be a Traditional Catholic and/or practice the Faith in these chapels that are not in supposed full communion? (You have no answer to that.)
How do you think Our Lord God would have treated the Good Samaritan? You totally dismissed that last part of my previous postings, ascribing my position as purely emotional attachment. But really. How do you think God would treat the one who fed and cared for His sheep and taught them how to follow Him… and serve Him alone. (Not Buddah, not Shiva, and not the world?)
These Catholic Chapels that you erroneously bash are producing the Traditional Catholics that you specifically call balm – while the parishes that they could belong to would turn them in a wholly different direction. You know not of what you speak.
I believe you are the type of puffed up Traditionalist that Pope Francis seems to disdain. For you are so locked in, you do not even recognize a potential ally when you encounter one.
Anonymous, you say that ‘Traditional Catholics’ are the balm for Our Blessed Lord as long as they remain in full communion. So question: are you saying that NO Catholics are not a balm? If that is so then you should pray for the increase of Traditional Catholic practice for without those groups who are outside ‘full communion’ it is increasingly suspect that Traditional practice within the Church will soon disappear.
That said, thank you for being a balm for Our dear Lord. He deserves so much better than we give Him!
I really don’t want to get sucked into division because it is of the devil. I called myself a traditional Catholic meaning that I believe and accept all the teachings of the Holy Catholic Church. (As you know there are many who don’t.) Your use of the term NO Catholic would indicate that you are a schismatic who believes there is more than one Catholic Church. When one capitalizes Tradition it should only mean Sacred Tradition also known as Apostolic Tradition. There are groups of rebels who call themselves Traditional Catholics who are not longer in communion with the Catholic Church. Many of them reject the Pope and refer to the Holy Catholic Church as the Novus Ordo Church, which is heresy and schism. Some people credit rebel groups for the return of the EF in the Church but really there have been people within the Church who have worked, prayed and waited for its return (and continue to do so) and it is really to their credit. Actually, traditional practices such as novenas are not disappearing at all. We have now begun the Novena for Life. I hope you will join us.
God bless you, Anonymous. The SSPX will go on and the various diocese (especially those with Bishops who consider the TLM divisive right now and fight against it) will continue to follow along with full communion TLM in her wake. That said, nobody is discounting the clusters of those in various dioceses praying and desiring and petitioning. Absolutely their prayers count! But their prayers do not negate the prayers and actions of others.
You may not appreciate that, but there are many who do as they are deprived of the rite and the fullness of teaching that they need.
It’s all good as it is Catholic Tradition. Capital ‘T’ or small ‘t’ – whichever you’d like to use, it matters not as I follow all the teachings of the Holy Catholic Church as well. As to ‘heresy’ and ‘schism’ you may want to leave that to others to decide and focus on unity as you suggest.
Thank you for your invitation regarding the Novena for Life. I will spiritually unite our family intentions to yours as pray an ongoing devotion for the unborn in conjunction with our Rosary.
God bless.
Truth? Would I look to you, dear Ann Malley for the Truth, when I have the Bible, the Sacraments, Tradition, and our Apostolic Bishops, to look upon for our faith? Our treasured Deposit of Faith?
You don’t even look to the Bible consistently, YFC.
As to looking to me, heaven’s no. As to your sources of Truth, “…Bible, the Sacraments, Tradition, and our Apostolic Bishops, to look upon for our faith? Our treasured Deposit of Faith?” I would say, YES, absolutely.
But this fullness of teaching is precisely why when ‘Apostolic Bishops’ go outside all the rest that you have outlined, one must be prudent and discerning. Judas was an Apostle, too.
No.
Again, you’ve lost me, YFC. ‘No,’ to what?
Okay, your ‘no’ was a form of dramatic pause. Pose the question in post one then answer in post two. I get it now. Like the one word paragraph used for impact purposes when writing a novel. You are consistent in that at least.
So while you tilt with literary arrows over where the Church is supposedly going, look back to this ‘treasured’ deposit of the Faith. There is much to be plumbed therein and great fruits to be had. But they require sacrifice and much of it being the physical comforts we would otherwise think we couldn’t live without. (Even so, YFC, you have such a rare opportunity to give God so very much. And it is a crucifixion to be sure.)
God bless
It seems like people feel threatened when some worship places are called non-Catholic churches. Here is the criteria for being a Catholic Church: it must be in union with the local Church that is in union with the Pope. (There are also a few prelatures that are in union with the Church.) Most of the “alternative” or “independent” parishes, chapels, Masses held in hotel conference rooms etc. are very truthful about whether they are in union with the Catholic Church. They really do not try to fool people. It is a badge of honor for them that they are not part of the Catholic Church because they think the Catholic Church is wrong about something. They don’t want to be part of the Catholic Church. That is why they left. I assume if you go to these places, you either agree with them or it’s just someplace that you like better than your local Catholic Church. You can do that. It may not count towards your Sunday obligation. It does not matter why you go. It’s just like abortion. Abortion is killing a baby whether you think it is or not; whether you have what you think is a “good reason” or not. There is no excuse or reason that you have for going to an independent chapel that makes it a Catholic Church. It doesn’t become a Catholic Church because you and a hundred other people who consider themselves devout Catholic go there. It doesn’t become a Catholic Church because your parish priest says things you or even the Pope don’t agree with. It doesn’t become a Catholic Church because the priest reads things out of a Catholic book or missal. Those things don’t make it a Catholic Church. It just doesn’t.
God bless you, Anonymous. Teach on without learning anything yourself. That is why you cannot, in all honesty, answer the questions I pose to you. You are wholly scripted and nothing more.
I tried hard not to make this personal. It wasn’t about you. Really. Every schismatic, every heretic, every pagan thinks they are right. Heretics only have to have one belief wrong to be a heretic. Schismatics don’t have to have anything wrong except they won’t worship with the Catholic Church united with the Pope and the local bishop-they usually have a reason which would be their heresy. Even the most pagan religions far from the Lord will have some element of truth. It is not OK to do evil hoping God will bring good from it. That is why your argument that Catholics are being formed in these parishes does not work. There are many people who find God in nature and He is there. But you don’t worship nature. A lot of people found what they needed in Jim Jones, in Hara Krishna, in cults like the Moonies. Then there is the whole Rock n Roll is Savior phenomenon. God is everywhere. His mercy is everywhere. He does meet people where they are. You will probably never view things exactly the way the Church does because you are coming at it from a totally different direction. It the “Been down so long, it looked like up” step in the right direction phenomenon. Some people move on, others stay stuck. This is the same phenomenon why people are so loyal to abortion. It made them feel better when they were upset. It solved their problem and put their life back on course. This is why you don’t trust yourself. You trust God and the authentic voice of God comes through the Catholic Church-Scripture, Apostolic Tradition and the Magisterium. You don’t let someone else’s screw-up come between you and God.
Anonymous you are the one who said you do not lay blame at the feet of the Catholics that attend Independent Chapels, the SSPX in specific. That is an admission that – shock of all shock – there are Catholics to be found there. You have said it.
Logically, one must admit, that these Catholics didn’t drop from the sky or sprout up in the pews or – sit down for this one – get poached from other parishes as some have never attended anywhere but the SSPX or another Independent Traditional parish.
So again, your hamster wheel argument makes no sense. But that is okay. I know that you have struggled against a lot of nonsense at your parish, and likely still do. Your suffrage in the face of ‘someone else’s screw-up’ is a valid cross. God bless you for carrying it. But the existence of the Society is no negation of your cross or sacrifice. Your cross is also not a negation of the cross of others or the graces that others receive.
You may fantasize that going to the SSPX would make things so easy for you. But that you, unlike others, are towing the line and doing what is right while they, those poor saps, are doing wrong, wrong, wrong. In your mind they must be. Because if you admitted, even to yourself, that anything of what I say might be true, the ‘temptation’ to go to the SSPX might be more than you can bear. For that is your temptation.
Your top priority or expression of Faith must be that of the promised ‘full communion.’ And that is a-okay if that is what you need, and how you carry your cross. And if that is where God has placed you.
But going toe to toe with faithful Catholics just because you need a sticking point on which to prop your heavy cross is not the way to find peace with your cross. If you choose ‘full communion,’ go for it. Thank God for it. But if you love God, and truly trust Him as you say you do, respect the reality that He is bringing forth good fruits outside what you believe is possible. But God is not confined to our imaginings – thank goodness!
So yielding, even in your mind, that perhaps God is at work in the SSPX, doesn’t mean you have to attend SSPX chapels. It doesn’t mean anything to you except that there is indeed mystery to the mystery of Faith.
God bless.
Ann Malley, I don’t have any fantasies about going to an SSPX chapel. The thing that totally turned me off of them was when I researched them and found that the leader says that they have a problem with some things in the new Mass but the people who attend their chapels are too confused to understand that so they just tell them that the new Mass is evil. No faithful Catholic of any stripe would refer to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as evil. I wouldn’t be interested in following that man. I am a Catholic and I go to Catholic Church. As for my parish, prayer changed things. It is no longer as it used to be and the people who made it that way changed too. The Catholic Church is the Church established by Jesus Christ. If you do not worship Him in the Catholic Church, you are not receiving all that God intends for you to receive. You can by validly baptized in SSPX chapels. When you receive communion at their Mass, you are receiving the Body, Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. However, since the priest is a suspended priest and is no longer connected to the Body of Christ that is the Church, you will not receive the same grace as if you received communion in a Catholic Church. You actually should not receive communion from them. I know their marriages are not valid and neither can they absolve sins in Confession.
You give up a lot to go there.
You sound more offended at the laity being treated as ‘too confused’ more than any mention of the NO being evil, Anonymous. Nobody in the SSPX is following ‘…that man!” They follow Christ Jesus. And they acknowledge the Pope as the Pope and pray very much for him.
But having traveled a lot and attending NO across the country and back again, I’ve got to say it is wholly confusing, and disappointing, Anonymous. You have no idea how the prayers change. And change and change. That does change people as you admitted – often into that which they’d never expect.
But in reality, all heat aside for nobody is dismissing Our Lord’s great dignity in the Mass, the NO doesn’t have the same solid Catholic foundation as the TLM. A side by side comparison of the two rites and the rubrics and practices is very illuminating. And it answers much of why it is so confusing. Not to say that there aren’t good people who attend the NO. There ARE!
Regarding confessions, Holy Mother Church supplies in times of crisis, Anonymous. Despite what you may be being told, there is one. Also the hard and fast – their marriages aren’t considered valid – may be what is written, but experience has also informed me that that is not necessarily how matters are handled in practice on the diocesan level. That was a shocker for me too at first.
So while you opt for Full Communion, don’t chalk off fullness of Truth.
Whichever Anonymous I am addressing now, none of my comments dated 1/15/2014 were at all “being mocking and insulting”, unless facts are insulting.
I cited facts which I am glad that the Anonymous responder of 1/15/14 seems to know (that the SSPX is not in schism, per Cardinal Hoyos—-of course you will get a different answer from Card. Gerhard Mueller); I also objectively observed that I see a new technique being applied to trad Catholics is to “push them to the outer edges”, to marginalize them, and to claim the center of tradition, by citing excerpts from Cath teaching. I called no one names and insulted no one, but I am curious what is the energy that drives the hatred of the SSPX Catholics, and yes, they are Catholic too. Cardinal Edward Cassady (Head of Pont. Council on Christian Unity wrote 1/20/2005 in a letter response: “The situation of the members of this Society is an internal matter of the Catholic Church. The Society is not another Church or Ecclesial Community in the meaning used in the Directory. Of course the Mass and Sacraments administered by the priests of the Society are valid. The Bishops are validly, but not lawfully, consecrated…. I hope this answers your letter satisfactorily.”
So. The SSPX is not OUTSIDE the Catholic Church. Now, some apparatchiks in the new Curia appear to be trying to re-draw the lines of the debate—but this is the outcome of over 20 years of “dialogue” up until the end of Pope BXVI reign.
Thank you again, Steve Phoenix, for battling that spirit who prefers anonymity, half truths and outright falsehood. I wish every truly Traditional minded person on CCD would do some homework regarding the SSPX, that is study her position and history, instead of just listening to what they’ve ‘heard’. This is not to say that you should leave your parish, no, but it would be very helpful to all parties to have a solid understanding based in fact and truth instead of biased hearsay.
Even if one didn’t agree with the Societies position.
In his letter of 10 March 2009 concerning his remission of the excommunication of the four bishops of the Society of St Pius X, Pope Benedict XVI declared: “Until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers – even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty – do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church.”
God bless you, Anonymous, for staying on top of this issue.
For a bishop’s statement see
https://www.calgarydiocese.ca/news-a-events/29-parishes/907-important-clarification-re-st-dennis-church.html
Another Bishop:
To the Faithful of the Diocese of Covington:
There has been established within the jurisdiction of the Diocese of Covington, … a chapel of the Society of St. Pius X. The church and the society that sponsors it have created much confusion and misunderstanding in the Diocese of Covington.
… [T]he priests of the Society of St. Pius X are suspended (cf. Code of Canon Law, canon 265). Please note, the Sacraments of Penance (Confession) and Matrimony, administered by priests of the Society of St. Pius X, are invalid (cf. Code of Canon Law, canon 966 and canons 1108 and 1109)…
It is morally illicit (unlawful) for the Faithful to participate in Masses of the Society of St. Pius X unless they are legitimately impeded from participating in a Mass celebrated by a Catholic priest in good standing in the Church (cf. Code of Canon Law, canon 844.2). The fact of not being able to assist at the celebration of the “Tridentine” Mass is not considered a sufficient motive for attending Masses offered by priests of the Society of St. Pius X. Participation in such Masses and in the administration of the sacraments at the chapels of the Society of St. Pius X can, over a period of time, lead to a schismatic habit of thought and heart as one slowly imbibes a mentality which separates itself from the Magisterium of the Holy Roman Catholic Church…
edited to meet the word limit of CCD
And of course, Bishop Bruskewitz:
All Catholics in and of the Diocese of Lincoln are forbidden to be members of the organizations and groups listed below. Membership in these organizations or groups is always perilous to the Catholic Faith and most often is totally incompatible with the Catholic Faith.
Planned Parenthood
Society of Saint Pius X (Lefebvre Group)
Hemlock Society
Call to Action
Call to Action Nebraska
Saint Michael the Archangel Chapel
Freemasons
Job’s Daughters
DeMolay
Eastern Star
Rainbow Girls
Catholics for a Free Choice
God bless you, Anonymous, you have said it. I *do* have a legitimate impediment and am, as the Bishops says we should, avoiding that which would lead over time to a schismatic habit of thought and heart as one slowly imbibes a mentality which separates itself from the Magisterium of the Holy Roman Catholic Church…
That’s my entire point. I have no desire to be separated from that which the Church has always taught.
So now that you’ve quoted others, can you answer any of the questions I’ve posed to you? Especially the one about how Our Lord would treat the Good Samaritan? Think about it. Outside of what you’ve been told. How do you believe God would treat the Samaritan from his own parable outlining true fraternal charity and selflessness?
Oops! This Anonymous was/is me. Sorry Anonymous for hijacking your name. No offense intended… Ann :)
Ann Malley, you often ascribe to me things I did not say. I think you are not very honest. I don’t buy your excuses. I do believe that your reason for attending non-Catholic churches (if you even do) is more psychological and emotional than spiritual. I think I answered your questions but here they are again. No one learns to be a traditional Catholic in those sects. They learn to be traditionalists which are rebels against God’s Holy Church. I am sure there are some who get wise to them and leave. As for the Good Samaritan question, I don’t really know what you asking. I assume it is some question that is supposed to legitimize going to non-Catholic parishes?????
Forgive me if my last post was harsh. I believe in the absolute Truth that has been revealed by God and is contained in it’s fullness in the Holy Catholic Church. I do not have tolerance for relativism not do I feel that I should. I will continue to pray for you.
I forgive your harshness, anonymous. But if you believe that I ascribe things to you that you do not say, perhaps it is because you refuse to give yourself a unique moniker which lends itself to mistaken identity. (Focus on what you may be doing first, anonymous, before calling someone else dishonest.)
As to my reasons behind attending Catholic Mass, think what you will, Anonymous. They are only your thoughts not reality. As for the good Samaritan question, relax, it’s just a question. Consider it.
You thinking is so unCatholic that I can’t even get my brain around it. It is not traditional Catholic or traditionalist. I’ve never seen a traditionalist justify themselves by relativism. I think I read that you were raised in Marin County which is not exactly a bastion of conservative Catholicism and is kinda known for new age and zen and that thing that starts with an e. I forget what the name of it is but CCD ran a story about it not too long ago. Did you smoke a lot of weed when you were young? Your blowing my mind. So tell me what it is you want me to realize about the good Samaritan. (A title which is really an insult to Samaritans in this day and age. I guess there is not enough of them left to voice a protest.)
Anonymous, I have tried to be patient and kind with you. Your comments regarding illegal drug usage are beyond the beyond.
That said, if you cannot follow the string of logic I have already spent ample time explaining to you on this thread, there is no point in explaining further. Examine the question yourself. How would Jesus welcome the Good Samaritan? When you have the answer, go and do the same.
Well, whichever Anonymous I am addressing, it looks like we have struck a nerve: there appears to be no enemy greater than inferring that the SSPX’s sacraments are “invalid” (SSPX “do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church.”) Please note that BXVI’s statement did not declare the invalidity of the SSPX sacraments (they are valid) and please note that he did not call them “schismatic”, my two main points. So I notice when one argument is met head on and disproven, the argument shifts to another — canonical liceity or “legitimate exercise of minstry”. That is of course still in progress, but it seems to me that the Anonymous crowd very much do NOT want the SSPX to be brought into full union, and that is what I wonder as to why.
Now as to the other arguments that “whichever Anonymous I am addressing” brings up—(1) The statement of Bp. Roger Foys of Covington, KY, who by the way is a bishop with a very good record of orthodox service—I am aware of his statement. His statement is not part of the infallible ordinary magisterium BY DEFINITION. Anonymous can research that, but in short, Card. Hoyos, Card. Cassady, and Pope Benedict XVI far outrank him in their status of defining the issue. Also, Anonymous, I thought you would want to observe that when Bp PJ McGrath of San Jose made his false statement (Dec 2013) that “the SSPX are schismatic” he “lifted” whole sections of the statement of Bp. Roger Foys word-for-word (Foys is canonist with a Ph.D in the field), indicating that he did not bother to seriously consider the many issues re. the TLM in San Jose diocese (or lack thereof), and that a march is on the SSPX, now that there is a far less sympathetic pontificate. Interesting. (2) I am also aware of Bp F. Bruskewitz’ letter. Again, with all respect to a very good ordinary, his statement is not part of the infallible magisterium: the matter is already being adjudicated by Ecclesia Dei commission. However, Anonymous, I would think you would find it embarassing that a group so dedicated to “what we believed up until 1965” — the traditional Catholic Faith, the cult of the BV Mary and the saints, a higher life of prayer and Christian morality— that this group is “dumped in” with known heretical, abortionist, or hate groups such as Planned Parenthood, the Hemlock Society, Call to Action, Call to Action Nebraska, the Freemasons, and Catholics for a Free Choice. This is utterly incredible, and not reasonably believable. So, go at it, the SSPX are clearly enemies of some in the present Catholic Church. Amazing.
God bless you, Steve Phoenix! But it is apparent from the above that He already is very much. Deo gratias.
They got lumped in because they were advertising in the newspaper as being a Catholic Church. I don’t hate the SSPX. It is interesting that you interpret it that way. I love the Catholic Church. I love Jesus Christ. The SSPX and other traditionalist and progressive alternative and independent churches are hurting Jesus Christ. “I can number all my bones.” Psalm 22:17
Those statements don’t have to be “part of the infallible magisterium”. They are still binding on the faithful. You need to obey your ordinary.
I understand that for some people this is a real struggle and I ask God to bless you and lead you to Him here and in eternity. God love you.
Steve Phoenix, some people make a fully informed decision to go to SSPX chapels. Others are led there by another person. They may not really know what they are doing. Some people may go because they really don’t like the Catholic Church but they want the old-timey Catholic Mass experience. Some may be there out of anger at the Church. But some are there out of a misplaced fear of the Church. Some people have great anxiety and sometimes it is caused by people who tell them things that are not true. I saw a post that said you live in the San Francisco diocese. I do not know if the ordinary there has made a statement. You would not be bound to the statements of other bishops, however you would be bound to consider them and not dismiss them out of hand. An example, two bishops in the US have said that those who support gay marriage should not receive communion. People in those dioceses need to obey that. They may need to get clarification on why. Others not in the diocese who heard about it would need to pray over it and maybe discuss it with their priest or bishop. The issue is the state of one’s soul, whether one is pleasing to the Lord, in communion with Him. These are not small things that should be decided on one’s feelings. Human feelings are very unreliable. They are not unimportant but one needs to pray and to think and to learn and be faithful and trust in the Lord.
“Some people may go because they really don’t like the Catholic Church but they want the *old-timey* Catholic Mass experience.”
“old timey” = The modern day experience of recognizing an ages old style of attack.
The devil has always hated the fullness of Truth. Hence the agitation when there is the just the mention of the Medal of the Immaculate Conception or dialogue about the SSPX. The nerve that is always struck is that the devil is always repulsed at the very thought of SSPX being reunited. This would mean that those who cleverly pretend to be in “full communion” would be witnessing the embracing of the fullness of Truth. The devil prefers the watered down version where heterodoxy can claim to be in “full communion” while dismantling certain “old-tmey” truths one by one.
Catherine, I did not know that you attended SSPX Mass. However, your assertion that the devil does not want SSPX to be reunited is, I believe, very true. All traditional Catholics, all faithful Catholics, including myself, were very hopeful last year that this would be achieved. Bishop Fellay was being crucified by other members of the SSPX for even talking to the Vatican. How did they view it at the parish that you attend? You are also correct when you say that the devil loves it when the Truth gets watered down. I am kind of surprised that you would say that the SSPX is the fullness of Truth. Obviously, there is Catholic doctrine that it won’t accept because Pope Benedict said that the issues were doctrinal and the head of the Congregation on the Doctrine of the Faith said that the Church can’t change its doctrine for anyone. There also is nothing watered-down about Catholicism when it is taught correctly. May I ask if you have a specific teaching that you think has been watered down?
“…Obviously, there is Catholic doctrine that it won’t accept because Pope Benedict said that the issues were doctrinal and the head of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith said that the Church can’t change its doctrine for anyone.”
You quote a high level statement from those not about to get into particulars of ‘internal’ Church matters with the general public, Anonymous. Why? There are factions within the Church that do not want the ambiguities of Vatican II addressed. They like the ambiguity that allows for broader application of…. novelty, modernism, and those ‘pastoral’ oddities that like Cardinal O’Malley asking the divorced Methodist Ministeress to give him a baptismal renewal blessing.
Clarity is what is required to teach Catholicism and transmit it correctly. And the SSPX wouldn’t agree to cease and desist the rightful critique of these ambiguities. Would you, Anonymous? Really? If you were praying for the SSPX to mend fences with Rome, would you want that done at the cost of a gag order that would only allow the ongoing confusion foisted upon the Faithful under the supposed Spirit of Vatican II?
Because even if that so called Spirit was a fake, a hijack, a media-spirit, who would question it? Nobody. Because all opposition to the ever increasing gray area would effectively be silenced. So if you wonder why the talks seemed to get so close to a final make-up and then went sour, that’s it.
But now look what has happened to the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate.
In response to Anonymous’s January 18, 2014 at 2:46 pm post
Anonymous, Thank you for asking for clarification. I have never attended a SSPX Mass or a Mass at an Independent Chapel. When I made the comment… ‘This would mean that those who cleverly pretend to be in “full communion” would be witnessing the embracing of the fullness of Truth,” I was referring to the witnessing of the fullness of Truth once there had be a re-uniting with the SSPX and Rome. Many within the Church pretend to be in “full communion” but there is no faking it when it comes to recognizing the consistent clarity in upholding of the fullness of Truth. The devil and his minions cannot conquer Christ’s love! Hence the constant agitation and animus directed towards the mere mention of SSPX let alone the beautiful re-uniting of the SSPX.
There would be such an incredible draw of everyone having the incredible opportunity of hearing the richness and fullness of Truth being taught without the obstacles of those who do want the steady stream of ambiguities in order to further their own agendas. These agendas have nothing to do with the salvation of souls. Yes, there would still be the animus from those who pretend to be in “full communion” because many still reject many Revealed Truths, but we have Our Lord’s promise that the gates of hell will not prevail even though there is a still a great battle being waged. Years ago there was a generic product ice cream called imitation ice milk. Watered down in flavor but you could pretend you were eating real ice cream. Once you’ve tasted the real deal teachings of our faith you immediately recognize that the very watered down versions of teaching the Catholic faith is quite lacking in flavor and content and once you were taught the full truths you would choose to only digest the true teachings with the much richer and favorable content.
continued
continued from January 20, 2014 at 3:06 pm
Anonymous, I agree that the SSPX are our dear Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ and I do sincerely believe that this is one of the reasons that the devil does not want this re-uniting. Just as the fullness of Truth is so appealing to those who are truly searching to serve God, ….well the exact opposite applies to those who are always searching for ways to excuse sin. They are agitated and repulsed by the fullness of Truth.
You are also right about the fact that many of the faithful are truly praying for this re-uniting. I was also very hopeful about the talks. One individual told me that the SSPX were going to be able to have many local parishes with schools and that they were not going to be under the authority of a local bishop but that they would directly answer to a their superior in Rome. I have no direct knowledge if that was true but it sure sounded wonderful and so very hopeful. I agree that when the faith is taught properly it is NOT watered down but realistically speaking we know that many of the teachings are often deliberately ignored, distorted and watered down right under the banner of pretending to be in “full communion”.
The following De Fide statements comprise “Our Catholic Faith without which it is impossible to please God” (The Council of Trent, Session V, explaining the correct interpretation of Hebrews 11: 6). These positive “articles of faith” have the function of fundamental principles which the faithful accepts without discussion as being certain and sure by virtue of the authority of God, Who is absolute truth (Council of the Vatican). They represent the mind of Christ as St. Paul says:
•1 Cor. 2:16. But we have the mind of Christ.
•Hebrews 13:8. Jesus Christ yesterday, and today: and the same for ever.
Since Our Catholic Faith comes from God, they are not open for debate, and they are not reversible.
The Christian is called to adhere to Christ and His teaching integrally; the unity of faith is the dominant motif of divine revelation on which St. Paul insists energetically, when he writes:
•1 Cor. 1:10. I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you: but that you be perfect in mind and in the same judgement.
There is, then, no place for “pick and choose” in the truths proposed to the Faith of Christians by the Infallible Teaching Church for they are bound in Heaven by God Himself. If something is decreed on earth and is also bound in Heaven, that thing must be the truth. Otherwise, God is no longer the Truth, which is contrary to the Gospel:
•Matthew 16:19. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in Heaven.
The Catholic Church is infallible because it is :
•1 Tim 3:15. the church of the living God, the pillar and the ground of the truth.
If a baptized person deliberately denies or contradicts a dogma, he or she is guilty of sin of heresy and automatically becomes subject to the punishment of excommunication.
VI. Dogmas on The Catholic Church
1.The Catholic Church was founded by the God-Man Jesus Christ.
2.Christ founded the Catholic Church in order to continue His work of redemption for all time.
3.Christ gave His Church a hierarchical constitution.
4.The powers bestowed on the Apostles have descended to the Bishops.
5.Christ appointed the Apostle Peter to be the first of all the Apostles and to be the visible Head of the whole Catholic Church, by appointing him immediately and personally to the primacy of jurisdiction.
6.According to Christ’s ordinance, Peter is to have successors in his Primacy over the whole Catholic Church and for all time.
7.The successors of Peter in the Primacy are the Bishops of Rome.
8.The Pope possesses full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Catholic Church, not merely in matters of faith and morals, but also in Church discipline and in the government of the Church.
9.The Pope is infallible when he speaks ex cathedra.
10.By virtue of Divine right, the bishops possess an ordinary power of government over their dioceses.
11.Christ founded the Catholic Church.
12.Christ is the Head of the Catholic Church.
13.In the final decision on doctrines concerning faith and morals, the Catholic Church is infallible.
14.The primary object of the Infallibility is the formally revealed truths of Christian Doctrine concerning faith and morals.
15.The totality of the Bishops is infallible, when they, either assembled in general council or scattered over the earth propose a teaching of faith or morals as one to he held by all the faithful.
16.The Church founded by Christ is unique and one.
17.The Church founded by Christ is holy.
18.The Church founded by Christ is catholic.
19.The Church founded by Christ is apostolic.
20.Membership of the Catholic Church is necessary for all men for salvation.
THE UNITY OF THE CHURCH from St. Thomas Aquinas
Of the first, it must be known that the Church is one. Although various heretics have founded various sects, they do not belong to the Church, since they are but so many divisions. Of her it is said: “One is My dove; My perfect one is but one.”[5] The unity of the Church arises from three sources:
(1) the unity of faith. All Christians who are of the body of the Church believe the same doctrine. “I beseech you . . . that you all speak the same thing and that there be no schisms among you.”[6] And: “One Lord, one faith, one baptism;”[7]
(2) the unity of hope. All are strengthened in one hope of arriving at eternal life. Hence, the Apostle says: “One body and one Spirit, as you are called in one hope of your calling;”[8]
(3) the unity of charity. All are joined together in the love of God, and to each other in mutual love: “And the glory which Thou hast given Me, I have given them; that they may be one, as We also are one.”[9] It is clear that this is a true love when the members are solicitous for one another and sympathetic towards each other: “We may in all things grow up in Him who is the head, Christ. From whom the whole body, being compacted, and fitly joined together, by what every joint supplieth, according to the operation in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in charity.”[10] This is because each one ought to make use of the grace God grants him, and be of service to his neighbor. No one ought to be indifferent to the Church, or allow himself to be cut off and expelled from it; for there is but one Church in which men are saved, just as outside of the ark of Noah no one could be saved.
Catherine, I think if you search on the Internet you will find that you are romanticizing this group. Many people have left it. Some came back to the Church; some went further away. But I think you will find that most of them left because they felt that SSPX was not really keeping to Tradition and because of corruption and lies. As you know Bishop Williamson was expelled. Even taking everything with a grain of salt, knowing how you feel about purity in the Church, I think you will agree that one can’t give unconditional support to this group.
Thank you, Anonymous, for recounting Trent and also the following:
(1) the unity of faith. All Christians who are of the body of the Church believe the same doctrine. “I beseech you . . . that you all speak the same thing and that there be no schisms among you.”
As I’ve tried to explain to you before it is very often difficult to teach the Catholic Faith within the context of having to move so often – which is the Cross that God has given my family. As you’ve stated above, one Bishop can ignore the error of ‘Catholics’ who support same sex marriage while another Bishop will disallow Communion, and rightfully so, for those who advocate in favor of same sex marriage.
The unity in belief is not quite unity as actions do speak louder than words. Especially when attempting to catechize folks. Otherwise, there would be no reason for the ‘faithful’ Catholics in your earlier posts to ask their Bishop why they shouldn’t present themselves for Communion if they support same sex marriage.
Silence often implies consent, Anonymous. But even more pointedly there are parishes where the pastor speaks falsely, that is against written doctrine. So what is a body to do? For while you may have been gifted with the knowledge of the law via pre-Vatican II experience/TRAINING/and grace (Trent) others are not so endowed.
So have mercy. Those you are discounting are doing nothing but trying to cleave to the unity and promote the unity of doctrine that you propose.
kanonymous, The only thing that should be romanced on CCD’s website is the Truth. You might think that you are getting away with trying to appear that you follow what you’ve just posted but your history of posts tell quite a different story. You are the same individual who has given unconditional kindness and support to homosexual activists in who are destroying the Church from within. This explains your inability to reach out in love to all of Christ’s lambs that have been scattered in order that we may be one. Shame on you for your feigned “full communion” posts that you often duplicitously ignore. I have posted some good examples of your selective obedience and your many attempts to also silence anyone including CCD for exposing the rot within the Church. If you loved the Church you would not attack or undermine the faithful priests who do abide by what you’ve just posted in order for you to protect the rot with such duplicitous fervor. Your goal should be heaven and so far your main goal is to only defend and appease homo-heresy and gender identity issues while attacking those priests who are striving to only follow Christ. Your smoke and mirror posts are the same formula that was used for selecting many a disloyal bishop. Feign occasional public shows of orthodoxy and get selected as you steadily “hide” your undermining of the Catholic Church from within.
“I beseech you . . . that you all speak the same thing and that there be no schisms among you.”[6] And: “One Lord, one faith, one baptism;”
Here are two examples #1. kanonymous’s selective obedience and #2. kanonymous’s duplicitous attempt to silence CCD for courageously exposing the error within the Church.
The Catholic Church has clear teachings regarding attending weddings of divorced and remarried Catholics or attending weddings at other Churches. k-anonymous completely ignored the teaching instructions of the Catholic Church and followed the opinion of a pastor who also did not follow what the Church teaches. k-anonymous just posted three long beautiful and truthful posts on fidelity, oneness of mind and unity. Actions speak louder than words. This is a post where kanonymous informed the entire blogosphere that Cafeteria Catholicism is fine and dandy. No oneness of thought here. Each pastor has a new teaching opinion and kanonymous was just fine with that. Attend the wedding, don’t hurt anyone’s feelings!! The reason that kanonymous is going to such great length to silence others and show such lack of charity in the hopeful re-uniting of the SSPX is because many are extremely threatened at the thought of Catholics who know, love, and defend their faith in actions and not just words of claiming to be in “full communion.”
CCD Topic ‘Catholic Strategy in Shambles
Published November 22, 2011
Posted Sunday, December 04, 2011 5:26 PM By k-anonymous
“Catherine, off the subject, but, our pastor said to attend the wedding. Our not attending will not stop it ” = Selective obedience
CCD Topic ‘Catholic Strategy in Shambles’
Published Novemeber 22, 2011
Posted Wednesday, November 30, 2011 10:27 AM By Catherine
Rick DeLano, I would like to explain something very important that I did not explain earlier. When you challenged me with going over the top with k, even though I posted my strong reaction to your post, the crucial point that stood out in my heart the most was your exemplary charity for the protection of another soul. You also demonstrated this quality with John F. Maguire. I will leave this up to the editors of CCD to post this. The prime reason I challenged k, was due to a post of k’s Feb.09, 2011, 7:11 post under the CCD’d topic of Suffering and inequity. k posted these words. “So California Catholic Daily does not have permission from the local ordinary to use the name Catholic? I could not find permission from the ordinary on RealCatholic TV either.” Rick even though you still might disagree with me, I found this post to be very troubling and disturbing, That post does not signal the appreciative awareness of the real goodness of CCD’s mission. This post seemed a bit over the top if you are trying to combat the real error and heretical issues that are being brought to light by CCD. This post could be perceived as someone trying to quiet or shut down CCD. Rick even though you used your gentlemanly fashion to challenge my posts to k, I could always clearly see the underlying fraternal charity for all souls in all of your posts. You have been extremely profitable in ways that you do not realize. Thank you for always defending what the Catholic Church teaches and thank you for giving the fine example of desiring the salvation of all souls. Even the ones we disagree with. How much more *profitable* can one’s post be?”
Catherine, you are simply AMAZING! Thank you.
And Anonymous, by your suggesting that Catherine look to learn about the SSPX by merely trolling the internet and taking your word regarding the particulars of those who have left and/or stayed in the Society (a dynamic that effects Holy Mother Church every day as well) you have just engaged in the advancement of idle hearsay and gossip.
For as you are favored of asking me, how is it that YOU know what goes on at a Church that you do not attend, Anonymous? Are you listening to tale bearers? Are you spreading false witness? Maligning your brothers and sisters?
How do you know what ‘most’ did with regard to the Society? Truth is, you don’t, Anonymous. You are doing nothing but engaging in the false pretense of piety of which you accuse others.
God bless and aid you. One can still lose their soul in full communion.
You missed one, very large category in your list of those who attend SSPX chapels, Anonymous. Specifically those who go to the SSPX because they understand that, “…the issue is the state of one’s soul, whether one is pleasing to the Lord, in communion with Him.”
That last word, HIM, is the mainstay. Contrary to what you may have been told, most who attend the SSPX do so for reasons of conscience. A conscience that accepts the tough call to avoid the occasion of that which vociferously attacks Faith. And their children. It is no easy decision, Anonymous, as the threat of not being in full communion is always there. What a catch 22.
To quote you, “An example, two bishops in the US have said that those who support gay marriage should not receive communion. People in those dioceses need to obey that. They may need to get clarification on why. Others not in the diocese who heard about it would need to pray over it and maybe discuss it with their priest or bishop.”
to Anonymous continued:
To what end, Anonymous? If said Bishops do not follow the Church’s moral law, they will not listen to you. Place that complete absence of unity before an intelligent child and you will a lesson learned. That is, the house is divided, there is no right, no wrong, and I can basically do what I want because that’s what the priests and Bishops do. Monkey see, monkey do
is very accurate when dealing with children and a good many adults.
To readdress your example, a properly catechized/formed Catholic should not have to ask ‘WHY’ supporting same sex marriage goes against Church teaching. One should know because one has been taught. To do otherwise is to educate by way of omission that such practice is acceptable. Another lesson learned. Do what you will as long as you ‘say’ you love God. Don’t bother trying to love Him. He understands.
So you are absolutely correct in saying that the admonishments of the Bishops are, “… not unimportant but one needs to pray and to think and to learn and be faithful and trust in the Lord.” And that is precisely what folks who attend the SSPX do, Anonymous. They trust in the Lord who has mercifully supplied in leading them away from that confusion until the dust settles.
That is why I say again that you are dismissing those who should be some of your closest allies, Anonymous. It is a real shame you do not trust in the Lord and give thanks for His bounty. He is giving you endless opportunities to come to know this truth…. but you dogmatically stick to false obedience, decrying the methods He using to accomplish His work. Not yours.
Well you certainly are Unitarian. I don’t compromise my Faith.
God bless you for your no-compromise status. You are a fine example!
A lot of Protestants believe that it doesn’t matter where you go to Church. It matters where you go to Church. You should go to the Catholic Church. I am sure many people leave the Church because their “conscience” is against discrimination of women, or discrimination of gays or discrimination against those who divorce and remarry. Or maybe, their “conscience” won’t allow them to participate in an organization that hid child sexual abuse. There are ill-formed consciences and we cannot judge and I guess, according to Ann Malley, we are supposed to support them. But I won’t and I tell to get back to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
God bless you, Anonymous. I pray you stay well.
Intercession: For the mother who awakens each morning with the memory of abortion fresh in her mind: that the Lord may still the terror in her heart and lead her gently to the well-spring of his love and mercy in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. May she, and all who’ve been involved in an abortion decision, find healing and hope through Project Rachel Ministry.
Our Father, 3 Hail Marys, Glory Be
Reflection: Today’s Gospel reading from Mark recounts Jesus dining with tax collectors and sinners. When the Pharisees question Jesus about this, he responds, “Those who are well do not need a physician, but the sick do. I did not come to call the righteous but sinners.” In a society where millions of people have fallen prey to the false promises of the culture of death, let us witness to the mercy of Jesus and invite all who’ve been harmed to experience his abundant love and healing.
Acts of Reparation (choose one):
◾Take time to write a handwritten note to someone who is lonely or needing encouragement.
◾Pray for your deceased relatives and those who have no one to pray for them.
◾”Spiritually adopt” a baby by saying this prayer every day: “Jesus, Mary and Joseph, I love you very much. I beg you to spare the life of [baby’s name], the unborn baby that I have spiritually adopted who is in danger of abortion.” – Prayer of Archbishop Fulton Sheen