Name of Church St. Joseph Church
Address 601 South Lincoln, Sandpoint, ID 83864
Phone number 208-263-3720
Mass times Monday-Friday, 12:05 p.m. Saturday vigil, 6:45 p.m. Sunday, 8:30 & 10:30 a.m. and 5 p.m. Holy days: 12:05 & 6:30 p.m. It’s a predominantly English-speaking area, and all Masses are in English. The parish has a quaint mission church, Sacred Heart in Clark Fork, on the opposite side of the lake. A retired priest offers Mass there on Saturdays at 5 p.m.
Confessions Fridays, 5:30 – 6:30 p.m. and by appointment
Names of priests Father Dennis Day, pastor. He’s a faithful priest who offers reverent liturgies.
School No.
Parish groups Legion of Mary, Knights of Columbus, Altar Society.
Music Piano.
Parking No problem.
Acoustics Fine.
Cry room There are pews in the narthex which are separated by glass from the main body of the church.
Additional observations St. Joseph is located in the diocese of Boise, in northern Idaho alongside Lake Pend Oreille, one of the deepest lakes in the country (the U.S. Navy has conducted submarine research there). Catholicism arrived in the region more than 200 years ago when Catholic Iroquois from Quebec came to the region; the first parish opened in 1907. The current parish church was built in 2010. It’s built for the new liturgy, but is well done (lots of wood!). It has high ceilings and a large interior—its nickname is the Cathedral of Northern Idaho.
Why? Built for the “new Liturgy”? What does this mean, and why celebrate this craziness! Dollars to donuts these parishioners know absolutely nothing about what Catholicism means (just fill in the blanks). 2015 should be the first big year for a Catholic Uprising (to cite Michael Voris, although he is not the only one saying this).
Time to rise up! Throw out the overfed, overpraised, over deferred-to, over-smug, and over-wrong bishops (with a few exceptions). Why do bishops and cardinals wear red? To signify the death of martyrs and to stand up for the Faith, to the point of their own death. Hahaha: these guys express outrage only against Traditionalists, only against those that dare to kneel when receiving communion, or who express a desire for a Latin Mass: they laugh at real practicing Catholics, gearing up to “welcome the gifts of sodomites” after it is directed as the result of the Synod in October 2015. Only the direct intervention of the Holy Ghost can save the Faith.
Smug, Christopher says!
St. Christopher, I’m so sorry you have been bitterly disappointed by bishops who have been, to be polite, unfriendly to tradition. Having personally experienced this, when as one example, I was denied a TLM for my wedding, I do understand. But I see there is a temptation to take out your frustration on this parish, the priest here and the people who attend this parish, some of whom know nothing about the TLM. This parish is not ‘gearing up to “welcome the gift of the sodomites.”‘ as you say so your comment feels misplaced here as a comment about the parish. What goes on in this parish is the re-presentation of Calvary which is the light of the world. It also sounds like it has a great priest, which is huge. God is working though this parish and it’s unfair to this parish to try and deny that. God Bless you.
…just being denied a TLM for your wedding is not the same as seeing prelates deny the precepts behind the TLM in order to foster a different way of believing, Carol. The push to “welcome the gifts of sodomites” is part of that “different” way of believing. Or you can call it a different and/or softer approach being brought in under the auspices of, “God is working through this (insert the blank).” It’s the, not-so-bad-as-all that mentality when faced with a mortal sin that one cannot root out – i.e. well, at least there is some good there, instead of calling evil evil so as to identify it and get rid of it. Trouble is when one compromises as a rule of thumb, then there is a diminishing of any rule and/or truth.
Nobody is denying that the unbloody re-presentation of Calvary is occurring at this Church. If St. Christopher were implying as much, then he likely wouldn’t care what occurred there. But it is the acknowledgment of the supreme dignity of what occurs at mass which drives many to speak so vehemently against the shenanigans encouraged to go on within the Church by this continued push for modernization. It becomes pandering at some point, Carol, and not wanting Catholics to be pandered to or to come to accept that as the reality of being Catholic is the point.
It kinda goes back to St. Paul and his admonishment about being wary of angels of light preaching a different gospel. And it’s really unfair to continually paint those who see this disconnect as somehow disrespecting the people, the priest, and/or Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. So feelings run both ways, Carol. Try to understand the motivation behind why others are actually posting instead of what you feel their message or intentions are.
Otherwise you’re being just as unfair as the next guy.
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Are you calling this parish evil?
I know you do not understand what I am talking about, that is apparent. Thank you for stating as much. What I’m saying, and what I’ve said countless times, Carol, is that this cleaving to the novelties given way too in a looser rite of mass (the NO) lead to a different belief, one that deviates from doctrine.
That is why perhaps you have expressed in previous posts that you experience a richer sense of that which is Catholic at a TLM mass. I understand this to be true in my own experience.. And striving to retain that ‘richer’ sense of practice is the issue here as Christ is indeed present. This is why losing that sense of supporting doctrine within the mass itself can prove so damaging to Faith. (The meet-them-where-they-are mentality can lead to a perpetual lowering of external practice which, in itself, can and often is an education away from what the Church teaches outside of pure obedience in attendance.)
So, no, nobody is calling the ‘parish’ itself evil. And again, thank you for asking.
Ann Malley, the Church is protected from error, so it cannot preach a different Gospel. When you say “It kinda goes back to St. Paul and his admonishment about being wary of angels of light preaching a different gospel.”, what, exactly is the “different gospel” about which you speak?
As to your rant against pandering….so in your opinion, there is pandering going on. Therefore, you apparently believe, it is OK to trash talk a parish about which you know nothing, and to leave the entire Church in communion with Rome in the dust. Over “pandering”. Wow.
YFC, the Church does not preach a different gospel and yet when her prelates do not preach the actual gospel, that is a problem. That is ‘the’ problem…. but one you prefer as it suits your lifestyle choices. Increasing numbers of prelates are beginning to negate the sense of sin in favor of false mercy.
When you say “It kinda goes back to St. Paul and his admonishment about being wary of angels of light preaching a different gospel.”, what, exactly is the “different gospel” about which you speak?
If you’d like to know, YFC, one aspect is the intimation that living an active homosexual lifestyle is a matter of conscience and then quoting the Catechism to back it up. That is the different gospel… but the one you like. And many others, too, for you certainly promote it enough. That’s why the October Synod was such a doozy.
So yes, YFC, if the parishes you see start preaching the goodness of homosexual unions that that would be worth leaving – because that is not the Catholic Faith. And if there were no threat against the Church in this regard then there would have been no need for St. Paul’s warning would there? Or the warning regarding blind guides.
And while we’re all hot on full communion, please remember that the Church of today is supposed to hold full communion with the Church and teachings that have been handed down, YFC. No 180’s allowed.
So ‘Wow’ on that for a while and devolve into labeling dialogues you are ill equipped to handle as rants. That’s about all you can do.
Ann, I still have a hard time following along. Are you saying the NO mass is evil?
Carol, I’m saying you should listen to the talk by Cardinal Burke on Gloria TV and take what he says to heart. That is what I’m saying:
https://gloria.tv/media/v6WpZoaFx8t
God bless Cardinal Burke for speaking honestly about the reality of the issue – but hey, he just got shunted off. That’s a pattern, Carol. Speaking the truth, even about one’s own real time observations, is now labeled mean, heartless, uncharitable because many cannot follow along – either because they don’t want to, are afraid to, are scared off by those who intimate that the knowledge of one’s own Catholic patrimony is divisive. Either way it leaves those speaking to the truth and fullness of the TLM branded unfairly – but to whose detriment? Not those who support the TLM, but those who continue to want to promote that which is stripped nearly bare.
Ann Malley, I can’t thank you enough for posting the link to the interview with Cardinal Burke.
I hope everyone will watch it. Especially at the end you can see who the Cardinal really is. Soft-spoken but clear and firm in the faith.
You can see why the Pope calls him “smart.”
I hope you watched the whole thing.
He could very well be our next Pope.
I had never heard of Blessed Columba Marmion who book is liked by Cardinal Burke.
Here is a link to an article about him:
https://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2006/czehnder_bmarmion_sept06.asp
Yes, Anonymous, I did watch the entire interview. I read it when it initially came out, too.
Carol, Ann Malley is a schismatic. She comes here to enlighten us about the bad Catholic Church. Ignore.
Mous, Carol has an SSPX priest in her family. Read a little. It helps :)
St. C, enough, already. You constantly defile the Catholic Church and the Catholics in general with your terrible screeds. Enough! The millions of Catholics who go to Mass every weekend are not bad people. The go to worship their God on the Altar, they go to communion, they praise him with song and psalms. They pray as a community of people dedicated to the Christ that will bring them eternal life. It is time for you to stop criticizing everything Catholic. Watch youtubes of the Pope saying Mass at midnight in Rome. That is the Catholic church and the Catholic Mass. Enough!!!!!!!!
Bob One, consider you wrote the following: “…Surely, there must be a simpler way to bring people to Christ. Now, I realize you can’t be a Catholic Christian unless you admit that you are a sinner, but wouldn’t it be easier and better if the Priest led a confession at the start of Mass, and then said “I absolve you of your sins.” There, now we don’t need canon lawyers. That should save the church millions each year that can be given to the poor.”
You write screed all the time, Bob One. So, yes, indeed Catholics go to worship God at Church, but the slow degradation of what that means is the problem. And usually for the sake of ‘being easier’.
CAROL God bless you for your charity. You speak the truth!
Pope Pius IX, Quartus Supra (#12), Jan. 6, 1873, Definition of a Schismatic: “For the Catholic Church has always regarded as schismatic those who obstinately oppose the lawful prelates of the Church and in particular, the chief shepherd of all.”
St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Pt. II-II, Q. 39, A. 2: “Hence the sin of schism is, properly speaking, a special sin, for the reason that the schismatic intends to sever himself from that unity which is the effect of charity: because charity unites not only one person to another with the bond of spiritual love, but also the whole Church in unity of spirit. Accordingly schismatics properly so called are those who, willfully and intentionally separate themselves from the unity of the Church… Wherefore schismatics are those who refuse to submit to the Sovereign Pontiff, and to hold communion with those members of the Church who acknowledge his supremacy.”
St. Augustine, Faith and the Creed, 393 A.D.: “We believe also in the holy Church, that is, the Catholic Church; for heretics violate the faith itself by a false opinion about God; schismatics, however, withdraw from fraternal love by hostile separations, although they believe the same things we do. Consequently, neither heretics nor schismatics belong to the Catholic Church; not heretics, because the Church loves God; and not schismatics, because the Church loves neighbor.
I highly recommend this good read:
https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/apologetics/my-journey-out-of-the-lefebvre-schism.html
…you assume hostility and separation, Abeca. That in itself is uncharitable as charity believes all things. This is why your perpetual labeling of schism or schismatic to that which you do not understand or automatically reject out of fear of taint is so exhaustively annoying. There is no way in which to reach you intellectually for your engine seems stuck on blind programming that negates reality.
This latter is precisely why many non-Catholics do not join the Church. But that too is in God’s hands. For true unity comes from accepting the Faith, whole and entire, not being a heretic who just happens to have the label of ‘full communion’ while spreading poison. And those who spread poison and allow it to be spread are the very leaders scandalizing the flock – sometimes with abuses, but more often with neglect of teaching and the reflection of said teaching in practice. Those who facilitate the spreading of error by blindly stating that we should all remain blind so long as we hold hands while falling into the pit are also not helping build up the Church.
God bless and be well. I hope you’re not too disappointed if the Society comes to an agreement with Rome in which the ‘label’ of doctrinal disagreements is suddenly transformed into the reality of a call for clarity to teach what the Church has always taught. In light of the October Synod, it is increasingly clear that the ‘pastoral’ has run amok….
…also, Abeca, if your fears are based on the horror of true schism, you should stop bringing up that which you consider schism all the time. Your posts are more of an advertisement than anything else. Try to correspond based on what a person writes, not what you ‘fear’ they may be writing because of your own personal bias. Putting the cart before the horse as the saying goes.
Otherwise you are indeed a tool, not to unseat the truth of what others post, but rather just giving folks information about that which they may not investigate if you hadn’t been so fearful as to bring it up.
There are many ‘inside’ the Church according to your measure that feel very much the same as I do. And there are reasons why.
Cardinal Burke also speaks truth:
https://gloria.tv/media/v6WpZoaFx8t
Specifically when he indicates that certain elements were unwisely removed in the new rite and as such there is a stark difference between the two rites. “The rich articulation of the Extraordinary form (TLM) – all of which is pointing to the theo-centric nature of the liturgy = that is practically diminished to the ‘lowest possible degree’ in the Ordinary Form.”
So if the TLM is theo-centric and the NO, wherein many of the elements which contribute to this aspect of the mass are removed, presents a stark difference from that center, where does that leave the new rite? And where does that leave the masses that attend the NO? Signs point to the crisis that we have today.
With a stripped down rite that downplays the central aspect of the mass? That may not present an issue for some (especially if they’re getting theirs), but for those who desire for *all* Catholics to get the Faith whole and entire, it does.
and Abeca this and Abeca that…….the false teachers never stop.
Lets continue when Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre in His decision to break away from Apostolic succession, to appoint his own bishops without approval, he did much great harm and created this “bad will type of church militant” style that Catherine and Ann Malley display. When people judge Pope Francis often and magnify his flaws, which yes I also find concerning but let us remember that Lefebvre is not much different than Pope Francis. They both cause different types of scandals that it leaves to the conclusion that we are not to put our trust in men but only in Christ and His church, we are to remain faithful. Read your CCC, holy scriptures and what the doctors of the church write to help you stay faithful, do not lean on man’s understanding. Catherine and Ann Malley are humans too just like our priests and bishops, they too pick and choose like the Cafeteria Catholics issues we have in our church. As Catherine once stated “sin complicates things” That is when she conveyed common decency and respect and made sense. God have mercy on us all and save us. Lets pray for one another even in times if diversity and division.
Abeca, your ‘he did much great harm’ is what gave the FSSP priests who were trained to say the TLM. As for Archbishop Lefebvre being ‘not so different from Francis’, you – yet again – show your complete lack of understanding or even study of the subject.
Read up and look to what you are saying before you speak, Abeca. It help with credibility if nothing else.
That said, do you realize YOU just defamed a sitting Pope by your eagerness to slander Archbishop Levebre? No, of course, you don’t understand that. But that is precisely what YOU just did by your writing – no interpretation of any ‘ladies’ to blame.
Bob One: AMEN!
https://www.waragainstbeing.com/node/41
Lets continue to pray for SSPX to unite and be in full communion. Lets pray for this.
Let us pray for the likes of Cardinal Kasper and company to be in full communion, Abeca. Let us pray for that. Cardinal Kasper is in ‘full communion’ and according to your other posts regarding schism must be given full credit for leading under the auspices of unity. THAT is a joke. And a scandal.
So I suppose if the Society is allowed ‘full communion’ without having to pull back in the rightful criticism of those ambiguous documents that give way to the abrading of Faith, then you’ll be okay. Good grief.
Prayers to be sure. God bless.
Ann, I know you never said or implied I was part of the homo-heresy network. My point is that I’m not and I still don’t think these parishes should be criticized so harshly simply because they have the NO mass.
Also, I don’t think the SSPX has created division with tradition. I think they created division when they left the fold. But all is not lost. We can still see them come back and be regularized. We serve the God of miracles.
Finally, I think it is correct to say that what someone gets out of the mass is what they put into it. Your personal benefit is related to your personal disposition. Someone can receive more of God’s grace at a mass said out in a field by a missionary priest than they can if they are at the TLM and doing a slob job. Although most people who attend the TLM aren’t this way, I’m just using it as an example. The source of the grace is the cross, 2000 years ago, but the reception of the grace occurs throughout time as you attend mass. And because what you get is related to what you put into it, I don’t think it’s necessarily ‘denying’ anybody something by not having the TLM available to them. Someone who loves the TLM over the NO is like someone who appreciates opera over pop music. But to plop someone in there and to expect them to get what you get out of it is unfair. They have to be taught, as I was. And then, on top of that to turn around and tell them what they are doing isn’t good enough is mean spirited. And it’s counter productive. I know your whole life isn’t this site, but I do hope you are doing something to promote the TLM by educating people about it. God Bless.
Carol, the SSPX didn’t leave the fold, creating division. You may want to check in with the priest in your family on that one to get the reality of the situation not just the spin.
“…Someone who loves the TLM over the NO is like someone who appreciates opera over pop music.” No, Carol, this is not the case although it seems like a handy analogy. You may want to revisit what Cardinal Burke has to say on the subject: https://gloria.tv/media/v6WpZoaFx8t
To tell them what they are doing isn’t good enough is not mean spirited, Carol, when the emphasis is properly placed on those in authority who have chosen to pass down the lesser instead of the fullness that they themselves received. Your continuance of making it personal is counterproductive, especially as many people are not hard wired to react to all stimuli as a ‘personal’ insult. To intimate as much is rather insulting to the intellect of many, including those who have no knowledge of the TLM.
So yes, the source of the grace is indeed Christ which is why a rite of mass that deflects from that centrality to focus elsewhere is lacking. Again, check with your relative for the actual information about those who support the TLM instead of ascribing sensibilities that you feel. I understand you’re trying to be kind, but often kindness can become smothering and turns a great many away as it presents the Church as overly feminine which it certainly is not.
Hello, Ann…did I miss anything? haha I see abeca’s record has a deep groove in it from the same phrases being repeated over and over and over and over…oops. (eyes got stuck from rolling) What we’re seeing in the Church is what has been taking place in this country politically, don’t you think Ann?…deep division, the inability to have rational discussions and a chronic inability to laugh at oneself. What I’ve found is under this papacy is there is so much confusion as Pp Francis confounds his hearers with constantly conflicting statements. It’s enough to make anyone cranky. Anyway, I hope you had a lovely Christmas. I love singing out all those wonderful old carols….Oh, Lovely Rose Ere Blooming, O Holy Night, etc. So many joys about being a Christian! I wore a veil for the celebration of the Immaculate Conception…it was a white mantilla that my dad gave me for my 16th, birthday…I may have mentioned it here. Anyway, another lady had on a black mantilla. Is there a certain time of year to wear white or black veils?
(not to be confused with white shoes after labor day) I mean like for the occasion specifically, like I wouldn’t wear a black veil on Easter, right?
Carol, I appreciate the civility you bring to this site, it is most welcome at least by me. I would ask you though, that when you refer to the TLM, it equally pertains to the NO, especially this quote: “But to plop someone in there and to expect them to get what you get out of it is unfair. They have to be taught, as I was. And then, on top of that to turn around and tell them what they are doing isn’t good enough is mean spirited. “. Perhaps if folks were taught about the NO, they would appreciate it better. This is why I don’t disparage people who attend TLM, though I do criticize those who exalt it above the NO as though one is better than the other. I know that is not your position, btw. Thanks again for your witness here.
Used to be that unmarried ladies wore the white veils and only married ladies wore the black – likely code for all the men doing their best ‘not’ to look at the lovely hairdos ;^)
Keep that sense of humor, Dana, it serves everyone. What with the the on goings in Church and politics taking on ever increasing and very open similarities, we’ll need a good laugh if only to stay upright and keep plugging along. Duck, cover, and maintain the state of grace!
Best of the New Year to you and, yes, Christmas was excellent! God bless.
I pray for this constantly. I have someone in my family who is a SSPX priest and I pray he can be in full communion with the Church. The divisions the SSPX create are really heartbreaking. In another family I know a tragic funeral wasn’t attended by certain people in the family because it wasn’t the ‘right’ form of the mass. It just makes things worse. There is no reasoning with them so all you can do is pray.
The SSPX isn’t creating the division with tradition, Carol. It is the ongoing compromise formula that has led folks like you who state that they enjoy the fullness of the TLM while seeming incapable of understanding that others would benefit from it too. And not 50 years from now, but now.
But what a grace you have in the family, Carol, for a young man to be so faithful – even if you don’t understand it.
God bless.
Carol you are correct about what you share here. One of my best friends use to attend SSPX. She went throught her journey back to being in full communion. She is very holy now. She exposed some of issues she went through with SSPX. Well its to long to share about her journey but Im grateful she returned to Rome. She and many wonderful Catholics are the reason we have a TLM parish in full communion in our area. We also fought and continue the good fight to help local OF parishes understand our concerns. We have come a long way and none of us bash any official forms of mass.
“Lets continue to pray for SSPX to unite and be in full communion. Lets pray for this.” = Better late than never although you have lost your posting credibility. Chalk it up to finding oneself in a state of manufactured anemia caused from a deficiency in charity and consistency. Your posts are not to be trusted. You worked very hard for several years in order to all of the sudden start to coddle and first run interference for homosexual activism. That is an extremely poor example of claiming to be in “full communion”. YFC and you/k claim to be in “full communion” while you have only been in “full communion” with duplicitous chicanery.
It IS important to be in “full communion” and that is why there are ongoing talks taking place. You have quite another agenda. While running interference for YFC, you have very obviously been inconsistent and selective on who is worthy of being attacked for not being in “full communion” and it seems that it is only based on who is willing to let you go on and on about your petite figure while working at the muffler shop, or others being jealous of your figure and smile, or you’re anything but humble blogosphere pronouncement of “I SMELLED THE ROSES FIRST.”
Never underestimate what lengths the Homo-heresy network is willing to go to undermine Church teaching while pretending to be in “full communion” . The Lavender Mafia = BAMN = By Any Means Necessary – Remember The Vatileaks Scandal and the Chicanery at the recent Family Synod.
I’m not part of the “homo-heresy network”. I am very genuine and sincere in my prayer efforts to have the SSPX in full union with Rome. I also wish people would stop bashing the parishes profiled here. I don’t see anything in Abeca’s comment to warrant your spiteful response. And yes, Ann, we need to pray for the Cardinal Kasper’s too.
I should say I don’t see anything in Abeca’s comment to warrant Catherine’s spiteful response.
I think it’s an excess of estrogen, Catherine, all around. Nobody seems to recall that Our Lord also said He came to bring the sword and that anyone who loved father and mother ‘more’ is unworthy…. but, oh my, we cannot offend this overwheening sense of motherly unity. The fake kind that makes you hug your brother just so ‘she’ can be happy long enough to snap a picture.
Just think if the mother in Macabees had advised her sons to just yield a little so they could all hug and be together. How sweet that would be.
“I think it’s an excess of estrogen, Catherine, all around. ”
Yes, indeed, all around. Ann Malley, you’ve hit the nail/hormone right on the head. Also….When Goliath was fast approaching David can you imagine that same kind of estrogen induced yelling out for David to stop picking on or bashing Goliath because they thought that Goliath could sometimes reason well. Excess of estrogen indeed!
First Book of Kings (1 Samuel) Chapter 17:34-37 And David said to Saul: Thy servant kept his father’ s sheep, and there came a lion, or a bear, and took a ram out of the midst of the flock: And I pursued after them, and struck them, and delivered it out of their mouth: and they rose up against me, and I caught them by the throat, and I strangled and killed them. For I thy servant have killed both a lion and a bear: and this uncircumcised Philistine shall be also as one of them. I will go now, and take away the reproach of the people: for who is this uncircumcised Philistine, who hath dared to curse the army of the living God? And David said: The Lord who delivered me out of the paw of the lion, and out of the paw of the bear, he will deliver me out of the hand of this Philistine. And Saul said to David: Go, and the Lord be with thee.
Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible
Carol YFI I think you are new, but if you follow along from this past year, you will see how they try to twist and take out of context posts of anyone trying to reason with them. They will most likely demonize your comments, manipulate the conversation to get you on the defense. Its how they work. They are good at it too if you re not prepared. I have seen them lose common decency. Throwing false accusation and twisting ones intentions. so don’t let them get to you. God bless you for your nobility, I can see that you are of good will. Don’t let them manipulate you into their thinking. If you point out how they may have misconstrued your comments, you may be accused of having “manufactured martyr syndrome”. When they are the ones who manufactured reactions to their insults. Yes those are the weird words they use. They expect you to show charity towards them but if you admonish them, they will not show any charity on you, for they will most likely molest and take out of context your comments.
Carol I don’t think any amount of charity will help these ladies remain calm. These are words they use to manipulate:
1. excess of estrogen
2. Manufactured Martyr syndrome
3.Homo-heresy network
4. They mock the term Full communion because they have hostility in their hearts
5.state of manufactured anemia
6.They abuse the word charity to mean only on their terms, but notice the hostile words they use when speaking to those of good will
7. I once used the word missy and Catherine had an interpretation saying that “you sound like a disrespectful brat” but when they disrespect you, then its OK and you must be a good little Catholic and not react back.
8. and let us not forget the famous mocking and judging ill fully of “I SMELLED THE ROSES FIRST.”
9. The list goes on…….what a lovely representation of Traditional woman. Its no wonder people are converting here to their agenda, its no wonder they win hearts. I have never seen behavior like these personally before from any OF parish ever, so we have to discern, that their guidance and advice is not coming from a good place.
there is so much more. Gotta love them. Keep going Catherine and Ann Malley, you both look pretty good and holy there. Why stop while you are ahead.
Carol, I did not say you were part of the homo-heresy network. Never even implied it. Also, I am not bashing parishes here.
Also, whereas you do not ‘see’ the need for spitefulness, the misunderstanding history(or not knowing it at all even as pertains to posts) and the motivations of the current day is precisely what leads you, it appears, to think posts are spiteful instead of understandable, necessary at times, and wholly justified based on a willful lack of accountability for what one says and does while at the same time claiming to be all for Jesus.
Your reaction, in my view, mirrors things within the Church – because you seemingly do not understand the impassioned dialog you assume it wrong and mean, etc and go forth to ascribe bad motives according to the present moment/devoid of history and the obvious shifts. It’s the Faith that unites, Carol, not just the Pope. That is why you can have a Church supposedly in full communion that is in complete disarray with what it preaches.
I’m glad you pray for the union of the SSPX. Because if that were so, then that would mean Catholics could point out the time honored teachings of the Church and preach those – not the pastoral versions that leaves much out – to the salvation of souls without being falsely labeled for merely passing on the Faith that has been handed down.
Abeca, you lose all claim to decency when you expect people with a brain to accept “I am all for Jesus” as the cure-all for your own inconsistency. It is much the same when the Church begins condoning the good in homosexual relationships as a vehicle to promote ‘unity’. The news is, unity without the Faith is no unity, Abeca. Just a photo op to look like it.
“It is much the same when the Church begins condoning the good in homosexual relationships as a vehicle to promote ‘unity’. The news is, unity without the Faith is no unity, Abeca. Just a photo op to look like it.”
Common decency while posting as a married woman, (if true at all) while cleverly luring a great big fish right into the slimy net of an indecent, improper and extremely inappropriate conversation? Perhaps no one was paying attention. Disappointing but true. There is nothing new under the sun. First it was an Eve who beguiled an Adam and now on CCD it is a YFC who promotes an Adam to beguile and share “his special gifts” with a Steve. And all with the ardent support of a Family Synod “in full communion” and Abeca’s selective use of “full communion” charity.
The selective attacks and selective common decency coupled with the flip flopping has served it’s own purpose. Many are called but few are chosen…AND many failed to notice this unusual post that displayed such a “common decency” erosion. These ravenous wolves care about systematically dismantling the ONE last impediment to total secular freedom. The Catholic Church. They do NOT win but the battle is raging. ………….”In The End My Immaculate Heart Will Triumph!”
Your Fellow Catholic Meets k/abeca Christian INDEED!
Never underestimate the duplicitous lengths the lavender mafia will go to when systematically undermining the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Abeca, don’t forget for pointing out the architectural feature I liked I’m accused of being part of the lumber industry because it happened to be made out of wood! I think prayer is more powerful than words sometimes! The Church everywhere, but also right here in CA, needs to be strengthened since she will always be under attack.
… you’re accused in a rather humorous way of perhaps, just maybe, having some other intention behind your posts, Carol, outside promoting true unity of Faith. So prayer is most definitely needed to understand what things mean… instead of taking everything one doesn’t understand as being ‘mean’.
God give us sight to see that which tears down; usually it is the rot that is allowed to fester from within, like mold, not the one who tells you there is a mold problem. And saying there is a problem is not ‘being against the Church’ or mocking ‘full communion’. It is very much loving the integrity of the Church and wanting union in the Faith – the very same that was given to the Apostles at Pentecost. Not the false notion of having to accept error as a means of ‘creating’ unity. Again, just a photo op.
Poor Catherine she is so delusional as always.
I dont care what your opinion is Ann malley nor of your partner friend Catherine because you are hypocrates, double standard and are poor very poor witnesses.
…you obviously don’t care about history or reality either, Abeca, so I’m in good company. That is why your estimation of my being a ‘bad witness’ is a compliment. Thank you. But at the very least, I try to be honest and consistent – not only with what I think or feel, but with regard to what the Church teaches, too, and not throwing those who took risks for us to have what we need and appreciate under the bus.
Ignorance can be blissful, but it can also negate a lot of truth, too.
Bob One, the Laity who attend the OF (Novus Ordo) Mass and some Priests are the ones who defile the MASS.
They do not adhere to GIRM regarding gestures, etc. And choose to do their own thing.
Even many Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, Choir members, etc all set a bad example for others by not adhering to GIRM for the Laity regarding gestures, etc., holding hands, mimicking the Priest by raising arms, etc.
Bob One, I have no problem with you promoting the OF of the Mass,
but you should instruct people on the proper behavior and dress.
Those of us prefer the EF Mass should not have to do it for you.
https://www.praytellblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2011-Pastoral-Letter-with-Decree-Bulletin-Insert.pdf
Jose, i agree 100%. There is nothing in the GIRM for NO Masses which allow them. But the NO should not be condemned because some priests think they know better, with their “hey kids, let’s put on a show” attitude and “I am the star of the show” irreverence. Truly upsetting.
I have no quarrel with those who prefer the TLM Mass, snide comments to the contrary. But I do hope that those who want the TLM and are deprived of it, contrary to Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, petition their bishop for a more extensive offering of it; or find a FSSP parish or priest. No need to go to the SPPX, who have separated themselves from the teaching authorities of the Church!
I agree bob one enough is enough.
St. C …. You read like you’re trying to be the new Martin Luther. You might think about whether you’re over reaching. Also, I believe that orthodox Catholic theology says that we gay people have gifts…no matter how modest ..to offer God and our fellow men.
C&H “Also, I believe that orthodox Catholic theology says that we gay people have gifts” understand this C&H despite the progressive heretics.. your gifts that you have are not because you are gay.
C&H Canisius is correct, gifts don’t come because you identify yourself as “gay”. Gay is an agenda-ized word. “:gay” is a man made new word, now if you suffer with same sex attractions, then you are called to use your gift of Chasity and live chaste. If you don’t know what that means study up on what the church really teaches about those things. God bless you, I’ll continue to keep you in my prayers.
Canisius your post to her is charitable. God bless you for being gentle.
. God bless you for being gentle. only because its Christmas….On a side note… My Father confessor told me that two gay men walked out of the Christmas Eve midnight mass during the homily when he stated. “Isn’t it a shame that you are now considered a bigot when you believe marriage is between one man and one woman”.
And I, you Abeca.
C&H, yesterday you brought up a 2013 post of mine, but the editor has taken it off for newer posts. All I can suggest concerning your friend is that you pray for the forgiveness of her eternal soul and for any sins, especially with you, that she committed, and for forgiveness for yourself for any part you had in leading her astray or partaking in her sins. Remember the only unforgivable sin is the refusal to repent. That is all I have to say about the post you brought up. I only brought it up now because your post was taken off, and I do not have the time to find it again.
If it is any comfort to you, C&H, I did an plenary indulgence today for your deceased friend. It all depends on the state of her soul when she died as to whether or not it will help her.
Thank you Anne.
Anne ~ You should be happy know that she was Anointed before she died.
What a tremendous grace, C&H! Thanks be to God.
The Ship of the Church is guided by Christ and by His Vicar … It alone carries the disciples and receives Christ. Yes, it is tossed on the sea but, outside it, one would perish immediately. Salvation is only in the Church; outside it, one perishes.
Pope John Paul I
We are compelled in virtue of our faith to believe and maintain that there is only one Catholic Church, and that one Apostolic. This we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins … For at the time of the Deluge there existed only one Ark, the figure of the one Church. And we read that all things existing upon the earth outside this Ark perished.
Pope Boniface VIII
AMEN Abeca!
Carol thank you. Please checkout the links above that i posted. God bless you.
Faithful priest, reverent liturgy and I love the ceiling. Thank you CCD for highlighting this parish!
I agree Carol, CCD does a great job at informing us of good parishes to attend, especially that is helpful when traveling. We need to support holy priests and encourage them to keep the mass holy. One of my best friends, who live in Virginia, their OF mass parish have a holy priest who is faithful to the Magisterium, His homilies are very holy, they have adoration, they pray the rosary before Mass, they evangelize the faith very well. What we must all do, is write to our diocese and encourage them to keep our local parishes holy etc. We had a good friend who use to posts here often, JLS, he always said that our Bishops and Priests need to be holy. So with that said, the lay faithful, need to encourage their bishops and priests to be holy.
Carol as long as Catholics continue to behave unholy against Christ’s church and against each other, then the church will continue the way it is now. Men breaking away from Rome, and appointing their own bishops bear this kind of unholy behavior. Its like tearing a piece of limb from our beloved Jesus and justifying it. The nearer we be with Christ, the more we understand what harm has been committed.
So they can blame the Pope, blame their bishops or priests but these sins have been committed since its beginning time when our Lord was here. Look what the same type of behavior did to our Lord. They cruxified Him. Its for the Love of Jesus that i say this.
And Judas stayed within the fold and betrayed Christ, Abeca, so that behavior has been going on for quite some time, too. But while you’re enjoying your TLM, the next time you do, you may want to consider that those who ‘tore of the limb of Christ’ in your estimation are the very same who, with Papal approval, began a society dedicated to the formation of priests who would continue to offer the TLM. The very same you enjoy and promote as long as it is ‘in communion’. But without the courageous Faith of those who put Faith first and trust in God, you wouldn’t have your TLM.
It is out of love for Jesus that I say this, Abeca, and love for the truth which is precisely why those you falsely calumniate stick to the doctrine that you consistently insist should be taught, but is obviously not taught by many in ‘full communion’. Call that mockery if you’d like, but blaming the TLM groups for the breakdown in the Church is delusional.
Ann Malley, to “falsely calumniate” means, I think, to tell the truth about something. Or were you just being redundant twice?
God bless you, YFC :)
Ann Malley the TLM remained with us because it belongs to the church. It does not belong to SSPX. Its the property of Christ’s church. Just because SSPX broke away and appointed their own bishops doesnt mean they own the rights. Our church did what it coukd to preserve it. Its like the protestants who broke away from Rome and have the bible. Its because of the Catholic church that they have holy scriptures. They dont have a complete bible because they removed some of the books but those things happen because they broke away and consequences follow.
Abeca, the Society kept training the priests in the TLM – without the training, there would be nobody to celebrate the TLM. So, no, it is not like the Protestants who broke away. You need to learn the history or else do not claim to know what it was like.
Much like the idea now is to keep the doctrine untouched, but do something else by way of not teaching it. That is precisely how we have ended up with a Catholic ‘faithful’ who do not know and/or accept what the Church teaches because they were not taught or held to any standard for fear of people leaving.
God bless you.
Ann Malley, you are a Judas. You betray Christ by attending a non-Catholic church and pretending it is Catholic. You betray him by attacking His Church and His faithful.
Judas betrayed Jesus because he really did not recognize God. You are the same, the exact same. Judas did not believe Jesus was God. You do not believe in the Holy Catholic Church which is the Mystical Body of Christ with Jesus as His Head. The Vatican and the Pope has not betrayed Him. You are so far gone you think black is white.
Both Forms (OF & EF) are HOLY when done according to the Rubrics.
These rubrics include not only the Priest but the Laity as well.
No Priest is permitted to change the rubrics. If the Priest does not correct his error then contact the Diocese Bishop.
Any Catholic who denies either Form of the Mass is a heretic.
The OF (aka Ordinary Form, Novus Ordo) must be in full accord with GIRM (Nov 2011).
https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20030317_ordinamento-messale_en.html
The EF (aka Extraordinary Form, Latin, Traditional, TLM) must be in full accord with the 1962 Roman Missal.
https://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/motu_proprio/documents/hf_ben-xvi_motu-proprio_20070707_summorum-pontificum_en.html
and
https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_commissions/ecclsdei/documents/rc_com_ecclsdei_doc_20110430_istr-universae-ecclesiae_en.html
AMEN! Thank you David.
Amen to that DAVID V. You post the truth and you are a noble gentleman delivering the truth. After all its about saving souls. Praise Be Jesus Christ. God bless you and Carol.
you hit the nail on the head.
Another parish stripped of its Catholicity…..yes I mean votive candles, statues of Mary and the Saints. Frescoes etc.. Bob One if those things bother you just make the full jump to protestantism
Canisius, they don’t bother me at all. Votive candles, statues of Mary and the Saints, etc. are in every church. I just don’t consider them important to the faith. Tradition, with a small t but not the faith. The Eucharist is the summit of our worship and faith. That takes place at the altar. From there we go out to the world to spread the Gospel. The altar is the center piece of our church, not the other stuff. That doesn’t mean a church has to be bare or ugly, just that everything must point to the altar. By the way, I liked your comment that you had nothing against the NO, you just didn’t like it. That may be true of most commentators who call for an end to the NO.
BobOne, what you consider important to the Faith is different than the instructions from God and from His Church.
When you post in the media as a ‘Catholic’, you should not contradict either.
Your personal opinion means nothing.
Sacred Scripture: Ex 25:18-20
“And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends.
The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be.”
CCC: ” 2502 Sacred art is true and beautiful when its form corresponds to its particular vocation: evoking and glorifying, in faith and adoration, the transcendent mystery of God – the surpassing invisible beauty of truth and love visible in Christ, who “reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature,” in whom “the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.” This spiritual beauty of God is reflected in the most holy Virgin Mother of God, the angels, and saints.
Genuine sacred art draws man to adoration, to prayer, and to the love of God, Creator and Savior, the Holy One and Sanctifier. ”
CCC: ” 2513 The fine arts, but above all sacred art, “of their nature are directed toward expressing in some way the infinite beauty of God in works made by human hands. Their dedication to the increase of God’s praise and of his glory is more complete, the more exclusively they are devoted to turning men’s minds devoutly toward God” (SC 122). “
Vatican II Document – Dogmatic Constitution – “Sacrosanctum Concilium” Chapter VII, paragraph 122.
” 122. Very rightly the fine arts are considered to rank among the noblest activities of man’s genius, and this applies especially to religious art and to its highest achievement, which is sacred art.
These arts, by their very nature, are oriented toward the infinite beauty of God which they attempt in some way to portray by the work of human hands; they achieve their purpose of redounding to God’s praise and glory in proportion as they are directed the more exclusively to the single aim of turning men’s minds devoutly toward God. ……”
Bob One as I understand you, things that direct us to God, ie paitings, statues, votive candles, etc are not important, but alas they are. They direct the senses of the faithful directly to God. We had a gang of thugs tear these things away and we have been robbed of our Catholicity, this gang in my opinion is evil. I repeat I have nothing against those who prefer the NO, however I have in the past attended some NO’s masses that were nothing more that protestant worship services, which is why I do not attend NO unless I have no choice.
“Bob One” you and your Liberal pals would be more content with the “Happy Meal” Mass (which is pretty near what a priest on the East Coast used to do by using a Snoopy Cup for a chalice — more common, you see, thereby making it more holy). It simply does not matter that a group of bishops says do this now and not that (which was done for centuries).
Merely because people are in power does not make what they do as “holy” or equal or superior to, a prior version of a sacrament. Take a look at Michael Davies, “The Order of Melchisedech” (1979, 1993) regarding the doctrine of indefectibility, “The doctrine of indefectibility most certainly does not require us to believe that new sacramental rites promulgated with papal authority are ipso facto superior to those that they are intended to replace. It
is perfectly permissible to claim that such a rite gives liturgical expression to the doctrine of the Sacrament it enshrines less effectively than its predecessor, thus weakening the principle lex orandi lex credendi. It is equally permissible to argue that the prayers and ceremonies of a new rite are less effective in raising the hearts and minds of the faithful to Almighty God, and evoking in them the sentiments and dispositions most likely to ensure fruitful reception of the Sacrament. All that the doctrine of indefectibility requires us to believe is that at the very least in its Latin Typical Edition, any sacramental rite approved by a Pope will be valid, contain no heresy, and nothing overtly harmful to the faithful participating in it.”
Try really, really hard to understand what is at risk by watering down the sacraments, by belittling the Church’s own DNA, and by arrogantly revising virtually every prayer (some exceptions), calendar, manner of thinking of the Church and its Saints, everything. We might be minimally OK to attend the N.O., and that is usually all that can be done, but we are at risk to a weakened belief, to a weakened heart for Christ. This is the “sin” of pastors in churches that were wreckovated, while sneering at Traditionalists and those that try to hold dear to the true Faith.
Canisius, Have you been to this parish? Do you know they don’t have a statue of the Blessed Mother and votive candles are you using rash judgment?
Carol, Bob One has constantly stated his dislike for the TLM…
Canisius, I’m not so sure. I’m going to go off what he is saying now, about this parish, which is what this post is about. What I hear in his comments is that he is not going to bash the parishes that have the NO mass. Please stop bashing the parishes profiled here. It hurts the Church that Christ suffered and died for – this parish has beauty and a wonderful priest. Be grateful for what God has provided to you. He is the giver of all good gifts.
When you continue to mislabel other’s posts as ‘bashing’, Carol, you do nothing but spread propaganda according to Carol’s interpretation of what another means. Or the interpretation that would brand the likes of Cardinal Burke so that he can be shunted off center stage. But, darn, he’s so doom and gloomy about the state of affairs in the Church today. (He might be hurting feelings.)
No doubt some might have labeled Christ’s announcing His impending crucifixion as downer defeatist talk that would only upset the folks and sound cruel and repugnant. Nobody wants to be crucified, after all, that’s hard.
You declare “What hurts the Church” without understanding the soft pedal approach that is still hurting the Church, Carol… and robbing those who would otherwise have the fullness that YOU enjoy for fear of being mean.
You admonish others to be ‘grateful’ for what God has provided without understanding that that gratitude is precisely what drives many to speak so vociferously in opposition to a stripped down Novus Ordo. True love and charity must by its very nature – share, Carol. So while you may not believe others are of good will or genuine based on your view of life, those who speak strongly here on CCD *do* care. Deeply. That is why we want the Giver of All Good Gifts to be acknowledged as THAT and not anything less by way of a rite that opens itself up to a lack of focus all over the world.
Carol please stop wagging your finger at me like some school marm if a parish looks like a gang of reform ripped it apart in the name of tolerance I am going to attack it head on..
Thank you, Canisius, for being head-on. So much side-winding renders one to behave like a snake.
Letting one’s yes mean yes and one’s no mean no is so refreshing.
God bless.
Not a single thing Bob One has said makes me think he is the least bit bothered by the Catholic things you identify above. You shouldn’t tell anyone to leave Christ and His Church because he accepts and appreciates the validity of the new mass, I think even sarcastically that’s in poor taste.
Please stop bashing these parishes! They are part of the Church Christ suffered and died for!
All Parish Churches are under the authority of the current Diocese Bishop.
If people believe that something needs to be done (in accord with Church teaching), they should contact the Diocese Bishop.
(In the USA, it is interesting to note that each Parish is listed in the County or City land records as being owned by the Bishop.)
Some may want to contact their Diocese Bishop to:
1) have installed Prayer Kneelers (Prie Dieu) or partial altars in all the Churches to serve those who wish to receive Our Lord while kneeling;
2) ask that all Seminaries and Convents use the “Catechism of the Catholic Church” as a required text.
3) ask that all Seminaries teach both Forms of the Mass to serve all the Faithful.
Should have been partial “altar rails” not partial altars.
“…They are part of the Church Christ suffered and died for!” That is precisely why there is the push for orthodoxy, Carol, not just a more elaborate wedding venue.
“…You shouldn’t tell anyone to leave Christ and His Church because he accepts and appreciates the validity of the new mass.” Again, another emotional assessment based on the world according to Carol.
God bless you in your endeavors just the same.
“Please stop bashing these parishes!” …..”I love the ceiling”
Carol, Why are you NOT defending Our Lord’s houses being bashed or as Our Lady of Akita said, “churches and altars are being sacked. ” Would you ever think to call Our Lady of Akita, Japan a church basher too for speaking up against churches and altars being sacked? Would you also accuse Our Lady of Akita, of not reasoning well when she warned us about these occurrences?
Carol, Did YOU or ANY member of your family either submit and or perhaps even collect some $$ for submitting St. Hedwig’s or the above Church, to be considered as a Church worth driving to? ” I love the ceiling.” Carol, Do you have friends or family members who are involved with the lumber industry in Idaho?
Um, Catherine, no. I have never given money to this parish. I have said the same thing here that I have said every time I see a church here assailed for not having the TLM. I’m shocked at your assertions. I’m not in the lumber industry. I just love Christ and his Church. I’m sorry you don’t see/understand my genuine and sincere concerns. God bless you.
Canisius is talking about the architecture and you keep harking back to people assailing the N.O. Mass. When we were discussing the other church\ the week before I was strictly referring to the architecture and the same response came from you and some others. I don’t care if people like this building…there’s no accounting for taste. Frankly, it reminds me of the hotel at the rim of the Grand Canyon or a train station, but if these parishoners are happy it’s none of my affair. I think of many of our brothers and sisters in the Middle East, whose churches have been destroyed, and even as I type, they’re living in tents in the mountains somewhere, hungry and afraid…I’m sure they would be very thankful for a building like this. Especially the restrooms!
I’m all for porcelain, Dana. Bring it on!
Catherine, really, accusing Carol of these things makes me wonder whether there are some serious things that you need to work out in your own emotional or psychological or spiritual life. IMO, one of the best things about CCD is this series, which highlights parishes “worth driving to”. Then a bunch of you hurl unfounded criticisms at the Parish and often at CCD. Then if someone says “Hey wait a minute, why are you trash-talking a parish you know nothing about?”, you come on here and make up accusations about the person defending the parish, making them up out of thin air, in this case it is Carol. There is zero reason why a parish, the CCD editors, and those of us who enjoy the profiles ought to be subjected to unending vitriol and made up accusations. Really, I genuinely hope you find healing for whatever issues you seem to be experiencing.
“Um, Catherine, no. I have never given money to this parish.” = Um?
Carol, Please reread my December 28, 3:41 pm post. I never asked you if you gave money to the parish pictured above. I asked you specifically if you or a family member perhaps collected $$ after you submitted St. Hedwig’s or the the church pictured above as a church worth driving to. Did you or a family member submit the name of St. Hedwig’s and the church above. Please answer honestly because it will help you to understand what I am trying to communicate. Carol I do see your genuine concerns and this is why I asked you if you or a family member submitted St. Hedwig’s or the above church. Thank you and God bless!
YFC,
Thank you for pointing out that it is a combination of psychological, emotional and spiritual problems that HAS YOU referring to yourself as “Your Fellow Catholic” while consistently undermining Church teaching on CCD. You introduced yourself to this Catholic website as a homosexual living in a 22 year committed relationship. Your memory is inconsistent and you will deny that you wrote that which leads us to believe there are more than one individual trolls using the name YFC. Another poster found a website titled Your Fellow Catholic Meets Abeca Christian and neither one of you addressed this fact.
You support same sex unions, homosexual adoption and you also claimed that a homeschooling family from Germany, (who sought help in our country) had no Constitutional rights to remain in the United States. You defend homosexual adoption because you “claim” to care about children. You showed your true colors when you did NOT care about the children of the Christian family from Germany whose parents would surely face arrest and their children would be removed. You entered this website to “introduce your gifts” in preparation for the recent Family Synod to introduce those “same gifts”. Abeca Christian is now all of the sudden going out of her way to call your posts. “well reasoned.” Once again, Never underestimate what lengths the lavender mafia will go to “sound in full communion” while they are more interested in introducing “those same gifts” that were introduced in “full communion” at the Family Synod.
Yfc im sorry that these ladies set a bad witness to you but thats what people of bad will will do often. Carol is a good Catholic her witnese here is refreshing. Even Caniuses showed true Charity to C&H. He is not flip flopping but showing charity as a gentleman does.
Catherine, you don’t hear your own silliness. I’m going to state this as plainly as I can and then I’m not going to continue to defend myself. I did not submit this parish and receive no compensation for defending the parishes listed here. I had no idea you could make money doing that – are you? The fact that you have gone down this road says that can’t respond to the point I have made over and over again: these parishes are part of Christ and His Church. Some I’ve liked better than others, but I would never go here and bash the parishes.
Published: November 4, 2009
A Mass Worth Driving To
New California Catholic Feature – $50 for Your Help
Starting this Friday, November 6, the California Catholic website will begin featuring profiles of Catholic churches in California.
Any valid Mass is infinitely worthwhile. But the human elements of a Mass vary.
“Catherine, you don’t hear your own silliness.”
Carol, YOU don’t hear you’re own lack of “silliness” by being perhaps a great enabler to those wreckovators when you expect faithful Catholics to not speak up about the wreckovation that was done to St. Hedwig’s by a more openly progressive homosexual clergy member. Do you know how silly (aka enabling) you sound when say “Amen” to those who mock Traditions? I don’t think your goal is to be a useful idiot or battlefield clutterer but that is what you are doing and the most liberal posters love you for this. How silly of me. Carol, You think that people should just look the other way while our Catholic identity is removed from our Catholic churches? Do you know how silly you sound when you say “Amen” to Bob One a poster who has consistently mocked Cardinal Burke and made quite a few pleasurable little shots that belittle the faithful for still being attached to the TLM Mass. Bob One is also a great fan of the new Protestant looking Christ Cathedral. Perhaps you are also a fan of the new Protestant looking venue to water down even more Church teaching.
continued from January 1, 2015 11:25 am
Carol, This is the last time I will ask and I suspect you will find a way to STILL play dodge ball. Carol, Did a close family member submit St. Hedwig’s to CCD in order to receive $50? You covered yourself but have failed to answer two times if a close family member submitted St. Hedwg’s. You keep distorting my question so that you don’t have to consider your half response as a lie. Also, I never asked if you or a family member were paid to defend the parishes. Did a close family member receive $50 to submit St. Hedwig’s church?
“The editors of California Catholic invite readers to provide information on churches of their choice — sorry, California only, Catholic churches only. We will pay you $50 if we print your submission. ” = I am only asking about St. Hedwig which is in California. Your strong defense AND silence regarding St. Hedwigs wreckovation is the reason for the lumber industry comment. You seem to prefer to bash those who do not want to see the Catholic identity stripped and if it was for 50 Siver coins then your usage of the word “silliness” becomes very clear.
God bless you yet again, and, indeed I believe He has, for nailing the issue squarely and calling out the schmuck, Catherine. Your gift is amazing.
Too few realize that promoting that which is the lesser is what is bashing parishes and parishioners. Subtly, but right where it counts – in the Faith and the true understanding thereof.
Abeca Christian says:
December 31, 2013 at 12:32 pm
YFC I hate hypocrisy! How dare you say that it is people like Catherine. No it is you YFC who does the bad will interpretation. Now with your comments here, you speak as if you are a person of authority and clearly you are not. Say what you will but what discredits you the most is your prideful conveyance, conveying that you know better than Catherine, when clearly she is consistent in her Catholic faith.
******
The above post says it all to me, Catherine. Far too many are manipulated and subsequently used as tools for ‘fear’ of being consistent in Faith… or being considered mean, the highest crime of all.
Ann Malley it says that if you read that whole article on its date and time and its topic YFC did need admonishment. Just like you and Catherine need one too here in its present time, on these latest topics with your tactics of bad will. It also says that I am fair to you and Catherine like I can be for YFC because I believe in the truth not as you believe it to be. Just like Fulton Sheen stated about the topic on truth and as you pull past comments, from past articles they were directed at that point in time and as rightly as they should have been, but like Catherine loves to promote…she “flipped flopped” and is no longer of good will, so now it is a good time to point out the truth. You two ladies continue to dig a hole for yourselves. I agree with Caritas for pointing out your bad will, as well. You ladies play dirty and it goes to show you how people can continue taking out of context and making irrelevant comments just so they can distract away from their bad behavior here. PAX CHRISTI
Catherine and Ann Malley, please stop being mean.
Thank you Ann Malley for finding that post. God bless you! No one should ever say “Amen” to those who cleverly undermine Church teaching or “A So Be It” about any Catholic church that has been deliberately wreckovated by those who hate what the Church teaches. Little by little if you keep failing to teach what the Church actually teaches and remove the Traditional practices and visual beauty then you can more easily shape a new feel good anything goes gospel where the only sin is not feeding the poor. Many completely ignore Jesus’s words, “For the poor you have always with you: but me you have not always.” Matthew 26:11 Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible
Sometimes people remain selectively silent because of the fear that if they speak up it might have some adverse impact on them financially. Is loyalty given to God first or to what will first affect the wallet. Many have forgotten that when you do teach the fullness of truth then the blessings overflow. Today the vineyard is overflowing in error due to compromises, scandals and a great loss of faith.
May God continue to bless California Catholic Daily for truly caring about the salvation of all souls while faithfully marching on where angels fear to tread. California Catholic Daily has certainly been a tremendous gift for all Catholics in California and I am quite sure in many places.
Catherine, read Abeca’s post of Abeca Christian says:
January 2, 2015 at 7:53 am.
In it she states basically the same position of those she wants to falsely label as schismatic. Namely, to cleave to the Church and the Faith, not trusting in men… to include Pope Francis. I’m not sure if she understands that she has taken the same position that I have been posting for over a year now.
Flip, flop, flip – we all need to maintain the state of Grace and pray.
God bless!
Canusis ~ When I went to CYO camp as a girl, mass was said in the outdoors with a covered picnic bench becoming the altar. In Vietnam, my father went to a mass with the altar set up in the bed of a Duce-and-a-Half. Like you, I prefer the more traditional style of Church architecture ,but really, anywhere we gather for the liturgy
becomes sacred space.
C&H I have nothing against making do to have a mass, by necessity those things needed to be done that you mentioned . However I detest these protestantized, vapid, sterile, “worship spaces” that try to pass as a Catholic parish. Every parish should give glory to Christ, and every inch of it should in someway reflect his Majesty. Everyone of our senses should know what we are in a House of God, not some auditorium.
Yes, good to keep in mind! I was also with a missionary who traveled around rural areas to visit towns of a few thousand people to provide the sacraments. It was certainly not the Notre Dame, but knowing that these people had to walk a long way to attend mass is a good perspective to have. I can’t help but feel their faith is just as rewarded by God.
Carol these women need to be reminded that it is a sin to wish ill upon anyone, it is a sin to curse another human being, witchcraft is a serious sin. I am noticing a very deep spiritual war with this website, there are demons attacking and causing much havoc. There are serious sins being committed here, since you are a person who is coming off rational please pray some exorcism prayers for all here who post. Pray for my intentions. Thank you God bless you. God bless you for your piety.
Yes, indeed, Abeca.
Libera nos a malo. And free us from false charity and false mercy.
The deep spiritual war is within you. Your statements, “Carol these women need to be reminded that it is a sin to wish ill upon anyone, it is a sin to curse another human being, witchcraft is a serious sin,” is just bizarre.
I’m not quite certain to whom you are referring, but you’ve gone off the deep end none the less.
Ann Malley glad that you acknowledge your false charity and false mercy…if only you would practice what you preach. It would do you great justice to help you grow in virtue and grace.
That is usually why the most poor of parishes, when given opportunity, used to build the most elaborate of Churches, Carol. When they had the funds, the opportunity, the freedom to worship God, they would give Him their very best as an outward sign of love and adoration. That is why the Israelites built the Lord the temple. They didn’t just up and keep Him in the tent while they build themselves comfortable living spaces.
That is the disconnect. Unless, of course, as a people we’re going to start living in the streets by choice and camping like gypsies just to show how poor we are.
It is so good to see balanced people writing balanced posts, rather than being subjected only to the rants of the Ann Malleys, Catherines, Linda!Marie!s, et al.
Many people who love traditional services have very different approaches in presenting our preferences. It’s a good thing to remember!
Thank you, Carol, that was tremendously even handed and appreciated. But Caritas seems to understand very well that it is not a matter of mere preference and that is what seems, at least in the past, to have provoked his/her ire.
no, ann malley, that is not it at all. what i am complimenting is the polite, non-accusatory tone of posters like Carol—whom you have just praised. for a description of denunciatory, angry, divisive rants, that pit faithful Catholic against faithful Catholic, see abeca christian’s 29 dec post @
12:41. it’s that kind of ranting that is upsetting.
no, ann malley, that is not it at all. what i am complimenting is the polite, non-accusatory tone of posters like Carol—whom you have just praised. for a description of denunciatory, angry, divisive rants, that pit faithful Catholic against faithful Catholic, see abeca christian’s 29 dec post @
12:41. it’s that kind of ranting that is upsetting. [i should clarify; abeca is describing the style of the well-known ranters here. i am not saying abeca engages in such.]
…upsetting indeed as you seem to find logic and accountability distasteful.
And your initial instincts regarding Abeca Christian’s 12:41 post was spot on. A Freudian slip perhaps, but spot on.
Thank you caritas. Ann Malley has selective eye sight, we all know what you meant. You were actually paying attention to my post of what I pointed out about Catherines and Ann Malley style here and as you see, even Ann just showed her true colors by adding malice to your valid point. I don’t think this will change. But miracles do happen right? Lets pray.
The selective eyesight, Abeca, that just read you saying not to trust in Pope Francis as per your post: Abeca Christian says:
January 2, 2015 at 7:53 am.
You advocate sticking with Christ and the Church Fathers etc… Well, Abeca, welcome onboard.
God bless :)
New “liturgy” well that says it all, it is the man made “Novus Ordo” not the True Mass of All times, sad that this parish like most don’t know what the True Mass is. Pray for the return of Traditional Latin Mass to the Vatican and all of our altars.
Many of us do, but in the meantime I’m not going to bash the parishes that have the NO.
The OF Mass is holy too when done in accordance to the GIRM. There are many holy masses being offered daily. This website is not balanced, you have many who are like minded with Ann Malley and Catherine….even when they display bad behavior, it is often excused. They say that those from the new mass are hostile to those from the EF mass, its not true, this website has many posts that has living proof.
You should listen to Cardinal Burke, Abeca, and then take the temperature of your own skewed behavior. Again, nobody is saying that the sheep in the NO are opposed to the TLM, Abeca, but rather the leadership that wants to keep the NO and the ambiguities in allows firmly in place.
Please, while you attempt to ascribe bad motives to those whom you falsely label as misrepresenting YOU, stop blindly misrepresenting the views and statements of others. Your continued misstating the position of others to suit your own agenda is no longer coming across as an innocent misunderstanding, but rather as feigned ignorance being used as a weapon to silence people. Much like many would silence Cardinal Burke because what he is saying is the truth.
“Your continued misstating the position of others to suit your own agenda is no longer coming across as an innocent misunderstanding, but rather as feigned ignorance being used as a weapon to silence people. Much like many would silence Cardinal Burke because what he is saying is the truth.”
Ann Malley, Excellent post. That is exactly what is taking place.
See Jose these ladies stating their own opinions over and over again. Mocking, taking out of Context, falsifying intentions etc. The only ones silencing people are what those two ladies are doing. They are not in truth because if they were they wouldn’t play dirty. Using words like estrogen, bipolar etc etc to provoke uncivil dialogue only speak volumes of their ghetto dirty unholy dialigue. Its all there to see. Facts not falsely made up tactics but only as displayed by them. Well lets hand them over to God. Im done with this article. PAX CHRISTI
Playing dirty is playing the victim, Abeca, when you are called to answer for what you write. But again, look to your own post of :Abeca Christian says:
January 2, 2015 at 7:53 am
You state that we should not rely on men, indicating that even Pope Francis isn’t to be trusted but that we should look to the Church and Christ and the CCC. You’re doing nothing but stating the position I’ve had since the start, Abeca. So thank you for listening.
And God bless you for finally understanding the message.
Well, OK, the people who are telling you yentas to take it elsewhere are not trying to silence you.
Just trying to tell you that you are being rude and inappropriate.
Learn some com-box manners.
No one else wants to have to “listen” to your pettiness and umbrage over imagined wrongs.
Thanks, mous, I’ve always thought being a ‘Yenta’ would indicate that I’d finally arrived. Wow! Maybe Dana could whip me up some lovely calico number and I’ll crochet a head scarf and maybe borrow a pair of drudge boots from Abeca…. although they’d probably be too small. I’ve got full-sized feet :)
But I can always rely on you to assume that wanting the fullness of Faith and practice for all Catholics in all places is petty. Thanks again for posting as you illustrate the vacuous lack of understanding to a tee. For a Church worth driving to, in my view, should be one that offers fullness. And without a TLM offering, sorry, there’s much to be desired.
The Ordinary Mass IS the true mass, just as the TLM is, and to suggest otherwise is heresy. The OF is no more and no less “man-made” than the TLM, and your statement to the contrary is also heresy.
No Bob One that was the “man made” Novus Ordo service you watched from the Vatican not the True Mass of All Times that the martyrs and saints knew. The saints and martyrs would be in SHOCK if they saw what passes for a Roman Catholic Mass! Giant puppets, hand holding, kiss of peace, not kneeling, communion in the dirty hands of people instead from the sanctified hands of the priest, altar girls running around the sancturary, female lectors, drums, guitars, pianos, ripped out high altar, ripped out communion rails, and yet the S.S.P.X. are treated like lepers and the pope hangs around schismatics such as the Eastern Orthodox begging the Partriarch for HIS prayers.
Janek, where on earth did you see giant puppets? Certainly not here!
Janek, please bring an historical view to your comments. I understand that you love the “True Mass of All Times” and wish you luck finding convenient locations to attend each week. But let’s be candid about the fact that that Mass too was written by men who were trying to change the liturgy. The NO, while not nearly as elaborate at the TLM, was an attempt to take the church back to its roots; back to the times when “mass” was said in the homes or any other place people could meet. True, it was celebrated for hundreds of years around the world and it was changed every so often as the world evolved. But, that doesn’t mean that change can’t continue as we evolve. It is ok to change, even the liturgy. We may not like it, but it is ok. Perhaps, you can find a spiritual director who can help your work through your disappointment with the current Church and its Pope. I’m sure that at some point the S.S.P.X will accept the authority of the Pope and the teachings of the Vatican II Council and you will be able to find a new home parish.
Bob One, apparently you have not read the 1962 Missal. Some of the most important aspects of the Liturgy have been moved to the current OF liturgy – same wording.
Your interpretation is wrong regarding taking the OF Mass back to its original origin.
Please provide an official link to VII doc which states your presumption.
VII docs can be found on the Vatican web site. Give us a llink and paragraph number. (Prove your statement with official documentation.)
This is what I do not like in the OF Mass –
1) Priests who do not adhere to GIRM, and doing their own adlibbing;
2) Laity who are doing their own desired motions.actions that are not included in GIRM, which are distracting from God and pretending to be holy;
3) Laity who talk to each other socially inside the Church before and after Mass distracting those who are there to pray.
4) Dressing carelessly as if going to the beach (shorts, sleeveless shirts, etc.), rather than dressing to visit our King.
I also believe that both forms of the Mass are Holy when the Liturgy/ Rubrics are adhered to by all,
For some reason many Priests do not correct the Laity and their behavior is just getting worse.
Hi Rachel, good references.
a cogent post with which i heartily agree. it is SUCH THINGS that make the NO Mass experience much less than it was intended to be.
I agree caritas and Carol. God bless you both.
Have you read Sacrosanctum Concilium? It is truly a wonderful gift to the whole Church. Here is the link: https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html
Bob One, there are many who are unhappy with some of the thoughtless comments of Pope Francis.
What may be acceptable in some Countries are not acceptable in all parts of the world, and he needs to be more considerate of his words.
Vatican employees and others should not be required to explain what the Pope “really meant” when he “appears” to violate Doctrine of the Faith.
Creating confusion about the teaching of the Church is not the work of God.
Here is a link to Cardinal George’s concerns:
https://www.lifesitenews.com/static/cardinal-george-on-pope-francis-why-doesnt-he-clarify.html
QUOTE: ” The question is raised, why doesn’t he (the Pope) himself clarify these things?
Why is it necessary that apologists have to bear that burden of trying to put the best possible face on it?
Does he not realize the consequences of some of his statements, or even some of his actions?
Does he not realize the repercussions? Perhaps he doesn’t. I don’t know whether he’s conscious of all the consequences of some of the things he’s said and done that raise these doubts in people’s minds. ” UNQUOTE. – Cardinal George
CCC: ” 2285 Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized.
It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.”
Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others.
Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing. ”
Popes are human beings and sin as well.
“Bob One”: are you compensated by the Zombie-Liberal Catholics (or the USCCB)? Everything that you state on the Mass is Liberal propaganda.
First, you preach revisionist nonsense to suggest that the Novus Ordo was formed for anything but to appease Protestants as an aid to “ecumenism” (and how is that working). Please read the ocean of literature on this; start with anything by Michael Davies, including “The Liturgical Revolution”. A helpful pamphlet type book was published in 2009, “Liturgical Shipwreck”.
Second, the N.O. is driving away people from the Church, for a number of reasons. Most importantly, the overtly Protestant elements of that Mass, coupled with the overwhelmingly poor teaching of the Faith from priests and bishops, has delegitimized the Church to many Catholics. Why attend a church that rejects its own history and (almost certainly to come) its own beliefs?
Too bad Pope Francis, who is entirely ignorant of the TLM and does not say it (nor permitted it much when he was archbishop of Buenos Aires), feels that the growth of the TLM among Catholic youth is a “fad”. To paraphrase the famous Churchill line, “some fad, some Mass”.
People, stand up to bully bishops and demand a regularly scheduled TLM in each and every parish, and that Traditional sacraments be taught in every seminary and in every Catholic school and catechism. Too much disobedience to the Pope (Benedict, that is) already. Time to be a man and speak up.
We may not like it, but it is ok. I would love to hear your reaction if under some near future new pontificate the NO is abolished and the TLM made the ordinary….
Canisius, if the Magisterium decided to go with only the TLM, I would attend of course, even though I wouldn’t be happy about it. If I were in a town on vacation and the TLM was the only form available, I would attend. I think I could even be an acolyte. Well at least I remember about 70% of the Latin responses and 95% of the actions required of a server. I’m just a guy who prefers the simplicity of the NO and the fact that it is in English. If the TLM was in English instead of Latin that might be a great thing even though many would consider that an oxymoron.
But SPPX is itself schismatic, Janek.
No, Caritas, you’re wrong.
Are the Eastern Orthodox Churches “schismatic”, caritas? If so, Pope Francis disagrees with you, based on his most recent visit.
Or, caritas, perhaps just for some historical perspective, Athanasius was pronounced excommunicate by the Pope and “schismatic”, St Joan of Arc was called schismatic-apostate- and heretic and excommunicated (sounds like you would fit in with the English Lords there), St John of the Cross was excommunicated by the reigning Papal Nuncio of the time, and St Thomas Aquinas had his commentaries burned as heretical by the Bishop of Paris. Finally, as Augustine is said to have written, “..One morning the Church awakened to find that she was Arian.” The heresy WAS the official theology of the Church.
You would have had a name-calling field day, had you only lived then, caritas!
I think I shall copy this post by Campion for future use.
“caritas” you are completely incorrect. Please review the Feb. 8, 2007 statement by Cardinal Hoyos (which is widely available): “The Bishops, Priests and Faithful of the Society of St Pius X are not schismatics. It is Archbishop Lefebrve who has undertaken an illicit Episcopal consecration and therefore performed a schismatic act. It is for this reason that the Bishops consecrated by him have been suspended and excommunicated. The priests and faithful of the Society have not been excommunicated. They are not heretics.” Many other sources of rejection of your statement are available.
And, of course, these bishops are no longer excommunicated by the Church, making your argument even less persuasive. Please do not rely on wrong statements by others, such as recent statements by the Bishops Zubick (Pittsburgh) and Semararo (Albano, Italiy) demanding that no one can receive the sacraments offered by the SSPX, and other such nonsense. SSPX has no canonical mission in the Church, neither it nor its priests are schismatics (but we do pray for them to formally rejoin the Church).
Your post was excellent, “Janek”.
Nice try but fact track your source Rome has said on many many occasions that the S.S.P.X. are in fact NOT in schism, all four S.S.P.X. bishops had their excommnications lifted sir!! We understand your hatred of the True Mass of All Times, it is very sad.
They have non-canonical standing they are not schismatic …
Caritas, there are Traditional Latin Masses that have been approved by the Vatican and are not SSPX. Two of the orders who serve them are The Institute of Christ the King and Fraternitas Sacerdotalis Sancti Petri — the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter or FSSP.
it is perfectly OK and in line with Church discipline to attend Masses offered by THOSE priests. Not so with SPPX. Attending Mass celebrated by an SPPX priest does not fulfill the Sunday (or holy day) obligation.
Yes, Caritas, it does…. again do the homework.
You are very wrong caritas please do some research the S.S.P.X. are NOT in schism, this from the Vatican itself. And like I said all FOUR S.S.P.X. bishops had their excummincations lifted by our Holy Father Benedict the XVI whom we miss so very very much!!
The SSPX is not a Catholic organization..
The bishops are suspended priests; they may not say Mass. When they do, it is illicit. Their disobedience is gravely sinful.
They are not in formal schism. But of course they are schismatics. They refuse to join in communion with the Catholic Church, therefore they are in schism. Formal schism would occur if they renounced the Pope which they have not done. But they do not obey him, either.
The Vatican has also stated that (until further notice) that the SSPX:
“do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church.”
https://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20090310_remissione-scomunica_en.html
This was signed by Pope Benedict XVI on March 10, 2009.
The lifting of the excommunication of the 4 SSPX Bishops was a SEPARATE matter and dated Jan. 21, 2009.
https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cbishops/documents/rc_con_cbishops_doc_20090121_remissione-scomunica_en.html
Thank you MARY but they dont care. They avoid those facts and try to bring much confusion.
…and you smear the Pope.
Yes and one of the four bishops was expelled from SSPX, at least two others are basically sedevacantists, and there are at least 2 other breakaway “societies” that are either to the left or the right of the SSPX itself. Who in SSPX and its various breakaway movements has the TRUTH? There are now about as many Vatican II denying protesting/protestant denominations as there are Trent denying protestant denominations. Pick a card, any card.
Janek, are you aware that Pope St. John II has called Orthodox Churches “sister Churches” to ours; has stated that the Orthodox Churches offer salvation to their members WITHOUT the need for conversion; and that these Churches are not merely “ecclesial communities” (I doubt you understand the difference) because they possess Apostolic Succession and seven valid Sacraments which confer grace when administered by them? You are out in left field with your (as ever) mean-spirited comments.
I’m sure Janek is just bowled over by your love, Caritas. I can feel it radiating even here in Ohio. Ah, just feel the compassion and concern that oozes from your key board. Let’s compare that with something I’ve written here before from Gerard Manly Hopkins about the love of our Lord…
The world is charged with the grandeur of God.
It will flame out, like shining from shook foil;
It gathers to a greatness, like the ooze of oil
Crushed. Why do men then now not reck his rod?
Generations have trod, have trod, have trod;
And all is seared with trade; bleared, smeared with toil;
And wears man’s smudge and shares man’s smell: the soil
Is bare now, nor can foot feel, being shod.
And for all this, nature is never spent;
There lives the dearest freshness deep down things;
And though the last lights off the black West went
Oh, morning, at the brown brink eastward, springs—
Because the Holy Ghost over the bent
World broods with warm breast and with ah! bright wings.
I never tire of this! Picturing God as a broody bird, all warm and protective. I guess the word ooze triggered the memory. Anyway, I suppose my point is that there’s a certain irony in castigating someone for mean-spirited comments mean-spiritedly, if you catch my drift.
So you don’t see something odd about the Pope implying that formally schismatic Orthodox can find salvation outside the Catholic Church – that is minus submission to the Vicar of Christ.
You’ll swallow anything as long as you * think * it issues from Rome. Good grief.
But hey, you may want to try being a progressive ecumaniac and cut the Society a break, understanding that the new order of the day seems to be just ‘saying’ it’s all okay. You could get a gold star for ecumenical outreach, caritas, and avoid a whole bunch of nasty nasty that, by this precedence, could just get waved off on a whim. Politics, caritas, plays a huge role in more than you know.
Bob One, if you are saying the Traditional Latin Mass of Trent was “created by men” as, in fact, the New Mass was (“…about the fact that that Mass too was written by men who were trying to change the liturgy.” –Bob One), even the latest Gen Instr. on the Roman Missal (GIRM, Mar. 2010. n. 6-8) states very clearly that the Mass of Trent was the same as the Mass in effect in 1474 and virtually undifferentiated from the Mass in effect under Pope Innocent III (d. 1216, a contemporary of S. Francis and S. Dominic).
This most recent effort to partially repair the disinformation of Annibale Bugnini’s commission 9the “Consilium”) and the progressivist V2 followers is a start: but in fact the Verona and Gelasian Sacramentaries (ca. 500-600 AD) all attest to the remarkable continuity of the Trad Latin Mass aka the Mass of Trent to even prior to that. The Roman Canon was not ever written down in this era (prior to Gregory the Great, d. 604) as part of the Disciplina Arcani, where the most sacred mysteries such as the Canon were deliverately never written but memorized, to avoid their profanation. In fact, the Roman Canon shows notable similarities to true Anaphoras of the Eastern Churches (Liturgy of St James; Liturgy of St John Chrysostom; Maronite Rite; etc) in its structures and organizaion, revealing its origins by Our Lord in the Upper Room. And by the way, the TLM as the Mass of Christ in the Upper Room was Catholic belief until about 1965—read any contemporary Catholic Missal, liturgical manual, or essay of the time. How far we have defected from the truth!
I mention “true Anaphoras” of the Eastern Churches, because part of the man-made liturgy of the Novus Ordo are the fabricated “Eucharistic Prayers” —really “Institutional Narratives,” which are quite familiar to Protestants— which break with identification with the valid “traditio” of the Church (“Communicantes” prayers — “In union with..”) which show clearly, prior to the Words of Institution, that the priest is offering a Mass in union with the Bl Virgin Mary, the Apostles, and the Roman Martyrs—in union with what was communicated by Peter and Paul in Rome to us now. This break with the recalling of the saints and martyrs of the tradition was first created by Cranmer under Henry VIII, a deliberate break with the traditio.
“Euch. Prayers” 2-4 notably dispense with this careful reference to the inherited tradition—because they represent a break with the past. EP2 starts, “Father, You are holy indeed, the Fountain of all holiness:” and jumps right into the “Narrative” of the Words of Institution. To solve this obvious problem, Bugnini’s people claimed EP2 was authored by St. Hippolytus (d. 236): Now, after some years, this spurious attribution of EP2 to St. Hippolytus as a true anaphora has been disproven—another vain attempt to gain “cred” with traditional believers. But it really disguises how the other “man-made” prayers, as Bob One agrees with me on this, were creative writing projects of the Consilium after V2 and a deliberate break with the past.
Watch the Stoning of Soraya M. Its a muslim story. But its no different from any religion who have cult like behaviors from its members.
…yet another odd posting, Abeca. And yet your persistent stonings here on CCD are very cult like. That’s the scary part and very bad for building the true Church.
Ann Malley why do you have to attack people simply for putting their opinions online? You use your same old technique of taking a persons words, twisting them around and hurling them back as though you are the wind returning a boomerang. Really, Abeca is just sharing an opinion, no need to bring out the fangs and the claws.
YFC, all Catholics must strive to be ACCURATE when posting in the media, per the CCC.
Accuracy is much more important than personal opinions which may be in error and cause scandal.
Personal opinions are not important in most cases.
Jose, of COURSE catholics should strive to be accurate. But people are entitled to their opinions, and I’m sorry if you feel threatened when people express them. And of course, your admonishment against issuing opinions is ITSELF an opinion, and you won’t find support for your opinion in Scripture or the Catechism. So why is it that people express all kinds of opinions on here about whether there should be altar rails, or Mass in dead languages, or whether a Church is worth driving to, yet you don’t chime in with your opinion about not having opinions?
Well Jose tell that to your friends who have given alot of their bad behavior opinions, Ann Malley and Catherine. The fact that you only corrected YFC shows where your heart is and your own opinions. Have you no shame. They attacked a faithful Catholic by the post name Carol and all you can contribute is these comments to YFC. I question your integrity and geniunity.
Abeca, question your own integrity. Read your own post:
Abeca Christian says:
January 2, 2015 at 7:53 am
You attack faithful Catholics of good will daily and without cause.
Ann Malley you just keep arguing for the sake of arguing and saying things that are not even logical. . I don’t know what you are talking about. Dialogue is not attacking. You attack with your usage of words like “bipolar, manufactured martyr syndrome, etc etc So don’t go there by stopping dialogue. Its your style that is the issue here not mine, dialogue is not attacking, its call speech, you and Catherine dehumanize people with your verbal usage of attacking character. So it is what it is Missy. Remember that one…it is Catherine who attacked by saying that me saying missy makes me sound like a disrespectful brat….if that is not attacking words then what is. Plus you broke the rules of civility here, so you need to earn my respect now! Plus its not easy to dialogue with you and Catherine, you two caused all this division and also you use irrational thinking, even your last post stating questioning my integrity, is so irrelevant and you are wrong to call yourself faithful Catholics…your unholy behavior here shows your bad will, you and Catherine. But even with all that, I will continue to pray for you. Bye now….
“I question your integrity and geniunity.”
Try to remember to TYPE *Abeca Christian* in the name box instead of rushing to be uncharitable and forgetting to remove the name anonymous. Instead of just charitable stating that you are praying for all of our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ to be united in practicing the True Faith you choose to attack even the sitting Pope along with the SSPX. We should never aspire to be spineless ambassadors of ambiguity and confusion. Call out and expose the rot within the Church so that the Truth will not be suppressed instead of trying to silence others.
Double-check the name box before you post your flip flopping comments.
“These modes of communication seem to express different levels of genuinity and varying distance from the objective truth.”
continued…..
continued from January 4, 2015 at 11:04 am
Abeca Christian says:
January 2, 2015 at 7:53 am
“and Abeca this and Abeca that…….the false teachers never stop.”
“Lets continue when Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre in His decision to break away from Apostolic succession, to appoint his own bishops without approval, he did much great harm and created this “bad will type of church militant” style that Catherine and Ann Malley display. When people judge Pope Francis often and magnify his flaws, which yes I also find concerning *but let us remember that Lefebvre is not much different than Pope Francis. They both cause different types of scandals that it leaves to the conclusion that we are not to put our trust in men but only in Christ and His church, we are to remain faithful** Read your CCC, holy scriptures and what the doctors of the church write to help you stay faithful, do not lean on man’s understanding. Catherine and Ann Malley are humans too just like our priests and bishops, they too pick and choose like the Cafeteria Catholics issues we have in our church. As Catherine once stated “sin complicates things” That is when she conveyed common decency and respect and made sense. God have mercy on us all and save us. Lets pray for one another even in times if diversity and division.”
Anonymous jan 3rd is mine. I dont know why my name didnt go in. Catherine since you and Ann are not civil. I do not want to reply to your irrational posts. Your lack of logic is one that hurts the mission of the church. SSPX has produced such things due to its schism and heretical militant encouragement of its followers. Its heartbreaking. I place you in God’s hands because i am sincerely concerned for your salvation. I continue to pray for you. I love you in Jesus. Pax Christi
Ann Malley why do you have to attack people simply for putting their opinions online?…YFC you are the biggest hypocrite… how about removing that plank from you eye first… judge not,, right isn’t that what you liberal spout constantly….
A ‘simple’ opinion that baits and switches especially with false charges is no simple opinion, Canisius. You might not be on the ‘list’, but JOSE just got a finger-wag and an accusation of ‘friendship’ with those on the baddie list for doing nothing more than posting something to YFC. Again, not simple opinion but hot-head agenda.
A new word “hot head” agenda again used by the same instugators lacking civility. Plus the facts i posted on another thread as well are not opinions. They are matters to take seriously if one cares to grow in good will. Its about saving souls and defending the truth in Christ’s church. We have a moral obligation to correct error as best we can. Posting facts about SSPX is to inform the lay faithful and to warn them.
Abeca,
Look to what you wrote yourself and explain it:
“…but let us remember that Lefebvre is not much different than Pope Francis. They both cause different types of scandals that it leaves to the conclusion that we are not to put our trust in men but only in Christ and His church, we are to remain faithful**
You need to be corrected for what you wrote or at least called to explain more fully. You chastise others for following Christ and His Church (not just since the 60s) and yet you in your wisdom advise the same.
Thank you for your prayers, but please, I’d appreciate your rationale. That and factual information not heated bias bent on a hot-head agenda. I could simper and say ‘sweet, darling lady’ if you’d like, but that kind of banter is precisely what sickens me with regard to those who use such language as a coating for something that is rotten underneath.
Ann Malley, then stop stoning people and come back to the true Church.
We who have defended Tradition and the TLM will not be silent any longer, 50 years is enough of the disaster brought on by Vatican II.
Janek, shout as loud and long as you want. The NO Mass is here to stay. And the vast % of Mass attenders prefer it. You are angry because you just cannot convince them that the NO Mass was designed to weaken their faith. Keep tilting, Don Quixote.
There is no need to convince anyone that the NO was designed to weaken faith, Caritas, because the experiment has proved this to be the result – no matter what the intention. As for what the vast majority prefer, the wide road that is easier to travel is most always the preference, especially when the unsuspecting don’t understand where it can lead.
You could say the same about people preferring foods that are bad for their health, caritas. Yes, they’re here to stay. Tilt that windmill, baby. Smoke that stogie and chow down on that heart-attack hamburger. You have your rights (or should I say, rites). But eating what people prefer often leads to premature death. And that’s the whole point, friend.
Does the 2nd paragraph mean to say that the NO is bad for your spiritual health? Does not provide the same graces as the TLM, assuming attendees at each have the same proper disposition? That attending the NO Mass leads to spiritual disintegration and even spiritual death? That’s what it seems to say. The authentic teaching authority of the Catholic Church teaches otherwise. But, of course, they are no match for Ann Malley! She alone possesses the TRUTH, as she has often written.
All analogies limp. Hers has paralysis. No logic there, and from someone who calls others “illogical”. Here come the onslaught of “ad hominem” insults instead of counter-arguments!
Read the second paragraph as you will, caritas. And eat as you will, too. So while you go by the ‘authentic’ teachings, you may want to look to Christ who said by their fruits you shall know them.
But then you do not seem to understand what an ‘ad hominem’ attack is either, for you indulge in them only to falsely diagnose them in others. As I said, go forth and eat that heart-attack burger, caritas. It is your choice.
God bless.
caritas, thank you for pointing out the uselessness and inadequacy of analogy. If there is understanding of a issue, no analogy is necessary. Anyone can create an analogy to try to persuade those to their way of thinking. They are a sign of a lack of understanding and a need to manipulate.
The comparison of the Mass with its Bread from Heaven to unhealthy food has been made by this person before. Quite offensive to God.
It is typical of a certain immature stage of religion that people with anxiety will become afraid of things that there is no need to be afraid of. Probably at the incitement of Satan. Sometimes called scrupulosity.
Those who attend the Ordinary Form of the Mass have more faith than those who attend non-Catholic chapels that imitate the Catholic Church.
I do not think that the form of the Rite is what weakened your faith, it just revealed the weakness of your faith.
Now I grant you that, like always, there are those who attend the Catholic Church who do not accept all the Church’s doctrines and disciplines. But I would think it is a no-brainer to say that all of those who attend your chapel do not accept all the Church’s doctrines and disciplines (with the exception of some who may simply be attending because of coercion of another).
A faithful Catholic won’t set foot in those places, although I also realize that those who attend them believe that they are the faithful who are preserving the “true faith.”
Merry Christmas to all Orthodox Catholics.
Ski Ven, I suggest a “Merry Christmas” to all people, not just Orthodox Catholics. Its part of the New Evangilization! :)
Its part of the New Evangilization! … which is failing completely
I wasn’t talking to you, Bob One.
Merry Christian Ski Ven and Bob one and everyone. Pax Christi
OFFICIAL Church position statement regarding the SSPX posted on the Vatican web site.
” This disciplinary level needs to be distinguished from the doctrinal level.
The fact that the Society of Saint Pius X does NOT POSSESS a CANONICAL STATUS in the Church in the Church is not, in the end, based on disciplinary but on doctrinal reasons.
As long as the Society does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church.
There needs to be a distinction, then, between the disciplinary level, which deals with individuals as such, and the doctrinal level, at which ministry and institution are involved.
In order to make this clear once again: until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers – even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty – DO NOT LEGITIMATELY EXERCISE ANY MINISTRY IN THE CHURCH ” – Pope Benedict XVI,
March, 2009.
https://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20090310_remissione-scomunica_en.html
In the future, when something else “OFFICIAL” is documented by the Church and posted on the Vatican web site, please post for all of us to read.
(Personal opinions can be in error.)
In the meantime, pray for unity.
Attend FSSP Masses, and those of Priests who have been taught the EF (Latin Mass).
For the EF Mass closest to you: https://fssp.com/press/locations/
or, your own Diocese web site or call your Diocese office for more information.
Okay, okay, I say we decide once and for all who is right. All those who favor the NO Mass and modernist churches can be the Jets, and all those who prefer the TLM and Traditional churches can be the Sharks. We can meet behind the school after dark and have a Grand Rumble on the playground. To the women: no hair pulling, scratching or goudging eyes. To the men: no hitting below the belt, no saying bad words and no goudging eyes. Father Karl can be the referee if no sides prevail and in the event that we’re caught by Officer Krupke, the general rule applies…everyone runs for cover. No knives or silverware of any kind allowed. No dirty dishes, dirty laundry or spitting is permitted either. Winners take all. End of discussion. Let’s let the world see just what great Catholics we are, no holes barred. I’m sure Jesus is terribly pleased with all of us and the sincerity of our discussions, but we need to decide once and for all who is holiest, smartest and most Catholic or there just won’t be any peace. Let me know when you’re all ready and I can order some red and purple satin to run up a few jackets with our insignias. Nice.
But I want the red AND the purple satin. Can I, can I???!!
It looks like it’s just you and me, little lady, and we’re on the same side. Since we have no takers I say Tradition (picture Tevye belting it out…Tradition!) wins hands down. Apathy and generally fusbiness lost in a rout I say this calls for hot toddies and toasted cheese by the fire. Back to the subject at hand, when I compared this church to a hotel or train station, it got me thinking about the impermanence and lack of personality. When you enter a traditional church it looks like someone lives there, with lots of art, decorations, statues, fulsome scents…and it looks like it will be there for some time to come. It’s a piece of heaven. These modern churches are utterly devoid of passion, color, or even that certain air of Catholicity. I would call them tapioca without the vanilla…banal, mediocre and utterly without depth. I’m just speaking as an artist now. As a Catholic, it makes me so sad that people are actually content with so little. I Have no doubt it’s full of terrific people…loving and caring as anyone. They deserve so much more! God deserves more!
Grace builds on nature, Dana, so the stripping down of the mass, the Church, etc is very sad indeed as the Faith and God are ultimate beauty. The fact that our Churches are being outwardly built to reflect a sterile, businesslike coldness has its effects.
As an artist, you’ll get that – naturally. Others, not so much. But colors, textures, etc effect a person. And I couldn’t agree more with, “I Have no doubt it’s full of terrific people…loving and caring as anyone. They deserve so much more! God deserves more!”
So keep on keeping on, letting the artist in you speak with that which is Catholic. Take back the culture on a cultural level – ever thought of trying your hand at making TLM vestments? I’ve made quite a few and it’s an intensely rewarding experience – if only to add the BEAUTY back in where it belongs :)
That’s fascinating Ann! I don’t know anything about making TLM vestments…did you make up your own pattern or are there specific designs and fabric you must follow? I painted Our Lady of Lords for our church, and I said a novena everyday before and during but I know for a fact my pastor would never wear a homemade vestment. But then our church practices the NO Mass. I knitted him a cashmere scarf and he never wore it or even thanked me :( Anyway, thaks for your loving support. God bless.
I made my own pattern originally – the old fashioned way – butcher paper pieces modeled off of an existing Spanish style vestment. That was before the Summorum Pontificum – patterns were hard to come by before that. But I guarantee that ‘homemade’ vestment made with LaLame fabric from New York or imported from Italy would render any pastor – TLM – wide-eyed and hopping for a pontifical vestment set. Guaranteed. NO mass produced vestments are easy to make, no work at all.
Sister Mary John has some excellent pattern offerings here:
https://www.sewvestment.com/page/302239
The following for fabric is top shelf:
https://www.lalameinc.com/ Talk to Ed. He’s great.
I was chief Statue painter, vestment maker, ad hoc seamstress, lace maker, etc, etc back at my old parish. It’s been a while. But I’ve made almost every sacristy item – specialty cinctures/tassels and crocheted lace stole collars are my favorite. And it is THAT kind of beauty that I love to see in the Church…. on the altar and on the priest when he is acting as alter Christus during the mass.
The true work of our hands, beautiful craftsmanship – the best we have made with prayer and care just like you obviously took while painting and knitting. God sees and appreciates your efforts, Dana, and since the priest didn’t thank you, God will do it in spades when it counts. God bless :)
Thank you Ann, for the links. I will check them out. I used to sew etc. a tremendous lot. I think I had mentioned here that when I was about 50 I went back to school in NYC for a deg. in fashion design…I didn’t want to live there, though I love it, but I had a job lined up here and then while I was at school the design offices moved to NYC! All that work for naught. It was an incredible experience though. I had to make a pattern and sew a half jacket in less than two hours. My favorite was costume design…which kind of leads into the albs, etc. but believe me I am sooooo rusty. Also, not having any requests, I hate putting alot of work into something and no where to put it, so to speak. I know the fabric stores you are talking about…spent many hours drooling over the yds of gorgeous fabric…and soooo cheap. I still have some of the ‘ends of buttons, fab. etc. that the fash. houses donated for our use. Thanks so much for the support. I must get that chess set done…I keep breaking pieces and having to remake them…takes tons of time. Each piece is a character from the canterbury tales.
“…Each piece is a character from the canterbury tales.”
Wow! My kids would awe at a set like that, me too. Literary artist types, all of them. I hope you know that every time you break a piece, it’s God’s way of giving you patience and a product that is more perfectly crafted than the masterpiece you thought you had.
At least that’s what I’d tell myself to forestall frustration. Enjoy ;^)
Lets expose some of the SSPX’s agenda’s: One of the Society’s four bishops, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, has stated that Pope Benedict XVI “has professed heresies in the past! He…has never retracted his errors. When he was a theologian, he professed heresies, he published a book full of heresies.” In the same interview, Bishop Mallerais said of the Second Vatican Council: “You cannot read Vatican II as a Catholic work. It is based on the philosophy of Immanuel Kant. …I will say, one day the Church should erase this Council. She will not speak of it anymore. She must forget it. The Church will be wise if she forgets this council.”
Similarly, Bishop Richard Williamson has said of Pope Benedict XVI: “His past writings are full of Modernist errors. Now, Modernism is the synthesis of all heresies (Pascendi, Pope St. Pius X). So Ratzinger as a heretic goes far beyond Luther’s Protestant errors, as Bishop Tissier de Mallerais well said.” Williamson added that the documents of the Second Vatican Council “are much too subtly and deeply poisoned to be reinterpreted. The whole of a partly poisoned cake goes to the trash can!” (see where this type of “bad will church militant” style comes from. Its stuff that Catholic articles do not expose on the scandals that SSPX cause, they even bashed Pope Benedict, whom we all love!)
Abeca, do you know the philosophies of Emmanuel Kant? Do you not realize that the pastoral language favored since VII is precisely what has ushered in the debacle of the October Synod? (The same pastoral nonsense that enables abuses in the Church left and right.)
The only agenda of the Society, Abeca, is sticking to the Faith whole and entire, even to the point of speaking out clearly about what those in the hierarchy do/say when it is against what the Church has always taught. That is not causing a ‘scandal’, Abeca, but responding to that which is said. Much like I respond to what you actually say.
Don’t slay the messenger just because what is said upsets your apple cart.
Enough already, Abeca! I have been sitting back reading many posts between you, Ann Malley, Catherine, and “like-minded” posters. You bait all of them on every acticle and when they own you and respond to your insults, accusations, derogatory names…you act like a poor victim who is the only faithful poster on CCD. These women and “like-minded” posters love the Church every bit as much as you do. You and others can call them schismatics, heretics, out of communion, but you are not God nor their judge. Whether you want to believe it or not, there are major problems in the Church today. They and I are only doing what God is leading us to do. I have not been to a Novus Ordo Mass in over 16 yrs. If it were not for the Latin Mass I would have given up on the Church altogether. I know countless others who feel the same way. So, you are NOT the only poster here who has remained faithful to the Church. What I, Ann Malley, and Like-minded posters are doing is remaining FAITHFUL to the way the Church and Sacred Tradition was for almost 2000 yrs before Vatican II and all of it’s changes. If we are wrong, then the Church before Vatican II was wrong, and I don’t think so. And by the way, I am not a Pius X, but I truly understand their position and their beliefs. I support them in their cause.
God bless and thank you, RR!
RR, you have the absolute right to fulfill your Mass attendance by assisting at TLM Masses as you wish (provided it is celebrated by a priest in communion with the Catholic Church, as the Catholic Church defines “in communion with”). So If the TLM Mass gives you more spiritual nourishment, FINE! The point is, no one is arguing that TLM is invalid, inferior, etc. But there are plenty arguing that the NO, promulgated by the same Church, IS invalid. This questions the power of the Church to speak authoritatively on the manner in which the Sacraments are celebrated. But Christ entrusted the Sacraments, and such related matters, to the Church. So choose the TLM form if it gives you the most sustenance; but please don’t throw rocks at the NO, which the Church teaches is equally valid.
“…But there are plenty arguing that the NO, promulgated by the same Church, IS invalid.”
Who, Caritas? Nobody is stating here that the NO is invalid. Please, if you’re going to debate, at least have a firm understanding of the position of your perceived opponent.
That said, the Orthodox Churches do not acknowledge the primacy of the Pope and yet you believe that they are now Sister Churches by the word of the Pope. So you’re rather off base regarding your assessments of those others *you* consider to be outside the Church. Please, read up. Get current. Otherwise you’re getting angry over a nothing, something of your own construct.
Yes, Ann Malley. The Orthodox Churches do not accept the Pope’s primacy of jurisdiction (but they have always afforded a Pope the primacy of honor). For the reasons I stated and which you didn’t dispute (Apostolic succession, seven valid sacraments) Pope St. John Paul II
called them “sister” Churches. No logical conflict here. Since logic does not seem to be your strong point, let me make it simple: A denies a certain quality of B (in this case, primacy of jurisdiction). B says that denial is erroneous, but asserts that A possesses a different quality (in this case, being a sister Church). Just because A and B cannot agree with respect to one quality, B can concede a DIFFERENT quality to A with no logical inconsistency.
God bless you caritas. Thank you for your charity. I completely agree with you. Thank you for your honest input that you contribute here.
Your ‘logic’ is not based on logic, caritas, but on whatever explanation is given to you despite the lack of logic it contains. That kind of logic I will do without, and pray God that never changes.
Wrong, caritas! They have never once said the Novus Ordo is invalid. Just the opposite. Show me a post where they said it was invalid,
RR i have found a quote from its founder but now its missing. When i find it again. Ill try to post. But that is not the main concern.
In the Vatican Documents the correct terms are:
Ordinary Form of the Mass, and Extraordinary Form of the Mass.
This terminology (“Ordinary Form”; “Extraordinary Form”) is entirely artificial and dates from July, 2007, being first used in BXVI’s motu proprio “Summorum Pontificum”(SP).
This is not a criticism of BXVI: it is a criticism of those progressive liturgists who insisted that this contrived terminology be inserted in SP, an effort to paint the Novus Ordo Mass of Paul VI as the implicitly “correct” Catholic Mass, when they realized that they admittedly had ceded tradition to the Mass of Trent, the Traditional Latin Mass as correctly the Catholic Mass of, well, Tradition.
The NO Mass has been a serious break with that tradition. After all, the NO of Paul VI had improper words of institution for over 4 decades (“…for you and for all”; deletion of “mysterium fidei”), words that completely lacked any scriptural basis and/or defected from the centuries-old defined Words of Institution, effectively rendering doubts about validity of this New Order’s consecration of the elements. Well before Trent, these words were defined and had to be exactly followed for valid consecration.
So much for “extraordinary” and “ordinary” forms of the Mass.
Amen to that caritas. God bless you for caring about souls and the truth.
No. The Church before Vatican II was not wrong. And it taught that there is one, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Those who attend Masses that appear to be Traditional but are not in the Church are breaking the precepts of the Church from before Vatican II and after.
Priests cannot start their own chapels and claim that they are Catholic.
They are not.
You have been fooled into thinking that you are being faithful when the Catholic Church is being unfaithful. That is ridiculous. All the heresies start like this. Some of these chapels do not even pretend to be part of the Catholic Church. It seems as if you have fallen for a pig in a poke.
Thank you RR…so good to hear from you. May the Lord bless and keep you throughout the coming year. And it’s the same for me…though I only attend a TLM occasionally because of the distance, I truly respect those who are part of the SSPX and hope they’re able to influence the restoration of traditional Catholicism.
From someone who has done their research on the SSPX:
They say Honorius I was condemned by the 6th Ecumenical Council of Constantinople. The SSPX calls him a heretic outright (on page 11) and seeks to close the book on anybody defending Honorius by hiding behind a book titled The Dictionaire Theologique Catholique: “. . . this pope was a heretic, though many have tried to prove the contrary.” They then point out how the hierarchy can “oppose and work against the good of the Church.” It is well known that Honorius was “anathematized” because he did not use the Papal prerogative of Infallibility, not because he defined error. Nobody would deny the hierarchy is not impeccable, but no Catholic, within the solid foundation upon which is the true faith, which pleases God and will conduct the believer into heaven, can deny the defined doctrine of Infallibility.
Abeca, nobody is denying Papal infallibility. One does not have to use Papal infallibility to combat heresy – they just need to be consistent in teaching what the Church has always taught. And that’s what we all want… and need.
Please, stop confusing matters with this imaginary bee that has gotten itself under your bonnet. You’re angry over nothing if your objective is to support actual Church teachings.
It is the faithful within the Church who are “restoring” traditional Catholicism. (which has never been gone from the Catholic Church but, in some areas, was diminished.)
Jesus, bring home the lost sheep..
…the faithful within the Church are greatly aided in obtaining the *permission* for Catholic tradition due to the leadership’s fear of losing increasing numbers to other TLM venues. Take those venues away and ‘restoration’ is just like it was when the Novus Ordo first came into use. Translation: there is no restoration.
Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth, Anonymous. Be glad of it. And thank God that you are in a position wherein you can receive the fullness of Catholic patrimony and faith without carrying the badge of baddie…… Jesus restore the sheep fold and drive out those who would deceive from within under the guise of being Shepherds.
“Enough already, Abeca! I have been sitting back reading many posts between you, Ann Malley, Catherine, and “like-minded” posters. You bait all of them on every acticle and when they own you and respond to your insults, accusations, derogatory names…you act like a poor victim who is the only faithful poster on CCD. These women and “like-minded” posters love the Church every bit as much as you do. ” = Excellent and insightful summation!
RR,
I would like to thank you for speaking up and calling a spade a spade. God bless you!
Catherine, Ann, And Dana, and “like minded” posters: I don’t know why Abeca has such a hatred for the Pius X members. Her comments are vicious and hateful. You now have to “earn her respect” because you have offended her, and yet, she has done nothing but insult anyone who has a devotion to the Pre-Vatican II Mass. Funny how she loves to throw around the term “in full communion.” I think it is funny how people dedicated to the Tradition, Traditional Latin Mass, and Sacraments are considered “not in full communion” and a plague to be around (gasp!) while the Novus Ordo Bishops and priests hob-knob with the Protestants and even had them participate in making up the New Mass. The Bishops at the synod last October are all “in full communion” yet they want to accept the homosexuals as having gifts to bring to the Church and want to allow remarried Catholics “NOT IN COMMUNION” with the Church to receive Holy Communion. Who truly is not “in full communion?” If these Bishops who believe these things are in “full communion with the Church, then I don’t want to be. It is schismatic and heretical what they are even considering.
I agree RR…and I’m in “full communion” but respect the SSPX people and their sincere love of the TLM and I also love my fellow Catholics at my NO local church. I suspect Abeca must agree with Fr. Paul Nicholson who said there was something worse than a Black Mass, and that was the SSPX. To me that was truly shocking, but certainly shows the hatred that exists in the hearts of some people against tradition. Well, the people’s pope has found his groove…in Argentina there were very few new vocations and low Mass attendance under his auspices…and now he has the whole world to inculcate the tango and and the hokey pokey. He says some truly wonderful and powerful things and then does almost the opposite. It sounds like many here are staying the course, and that’s good. Actually, when you think about it, our daily lives go on as usual. I’m going to stop worrying about it and trust in God’s Will. ” Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.”
No RR no hatred…I think you have not followed along for a while to understand the issues….so with that said I will not reply to your comments because there is no need to argue. I value you and do not want to stir division. Just follow my comments with an open heart to gain some understanding. God bless you and know this that it is always about saving souls. My stance has always been about saving souls and gaining sanctifying grace. What you see as hatred, it is not.
I am sorry that you do not understand, you have missed the many threads leading up to this but know that it is not hate but its sincere trust and love of Christ and His church. You don’t understand now but you will someday…I place you in God’s hands and love you in Jesus! PAx Christi…..
RR, as you well know, abeca problem is not with the Latin Mass.
This is the problem. You said it yourself: if these bishops are in “full communion with the Church, then I don’t want to be.” Then you aren’t in any communion with the Church you are a schismatic. You are more dead as a Catholic than a sexually active homosexual person. You may accept all Church teachings but by rejecting the Church itself, you have separated yourself from the Body of Christ. The Traditional Latin Mass and Sacraments are valid and licit if performed by priests of the Catholic Church who are authorized to perform the sacraments. Suspended priests are not authorized to do this. Why do you not understand? It is the union with the Church-even if an individual is in error-from which the grace and merits and efficacy of the Sacraments derive because the Church is the Body of Christ with Jesus Christ as Her Head and there is no other Church.
Anonymous: Wrong! If Bishops are not in full communion with the Church you’re darn right I don’t want to be in communion with them. I would be the opposite of them which is IN COMMUNION with Christ and His Church! I learned my faith from my mother who passed away last April. This woman was the most dedicated, God Loving and fearing woman her entire life. She taught me all about Church teaching and Dogmas of the Church. She taught me everything about the Blessed Mother and the Rosary. I know what I know from her and nobody, not you nor abeca, will ever get me to believe otherwise that the Traditional Mass and Sacraments isn’t where the faith is at. I will FOREVER go to the Latin Mass and you will NEVER see me in a Novus Ordo Mass made up by liberal Bishops and priests and with the help of 6 PROTESTANT ministers. Definitely pray for my soul, but don’t pray for me to go back to a Novus Ordo Church. It will NEVER happen. Pray for your own soul, too. You are NOT in Communion with the Church.
RR, God bless you, but don’t let mous rile you. He/she is merely desperate to prove some superiority as if following a Judas priest is somehow proof of Faith when said Shepherd is visibly leading the flock over the cliff.
And thank God that your mother taught you as diligently as she did. What a blessing. Not only for you, but for us, too. Thank you for your faithfulness and for posting :)
RR, in your post, if you re-read it, you specifically said that you do not want to be in full communion with the Catholic Church.
And yes, I am in communion with the Church.
My condolences on the death of your mother. You are blessed to have someone to teach you the faith.
Protestant ministers did not make up the Catholic Mass. You should research that a little better. It is a blessing to go to the Latin Mass and receive the Sacraments as long as it is a Catholic Mass. Some wayward priests deceive people into thinking that because they are Catholic priests they can say Mass even though they have been suspended. God bless you and protect you from all evil and bring you to eternal life.
Ann Malley: mous does not rile me. He humors me. I read his posts and I laugh, do an eye, roll, and shake my head. As though people take his posts seriously! YFC might, but that says a lot too! Anyway, I thank God for my mother and because of her my faith is what it is today. If it weren’t for her I would not have any faith and I would not be going to church. I was taught watered down catechism in the “Catholic” school that I attended and it has only gotten much worse since the 70’s when I was in grade school. My mother always taught me to go to God and Mother Mary whenever I have a problem or troubles. I have faith and know that the Church will become strong again because The Blessed Mother said it would and that in the end Her Immaculate Heart will triumph! I don’t need (as some people do) to criticize people for trying to remain firm and strong in their convictions to remain steadfast in the traditions and teachings of the Holy Mother Church.
Thanks for responding RR and for reaffirming reality. As for mous, he/she is intent on not root causing the ongoing crisis in the Church. And it is because things are not analyzed back to the root that the problems continue to grow. Sad. But that is the way many are misled into castigating the very methods that could aid them.
“…Protestant ministers did not make up the Catholic Mass. You should research that a little better.” Mous needs to research this a little better and look to the influences/misguided motivations that led to the abused rite that we have today. Bad fruit doesn’t just suddenly spring off of a good tree for no apparent reason and to promote otherwise only aids in perpetuating that which is against the Faith.
So mous gets an A+ for following the letter, but the Spirit? Not important I suppose for there is absolutely no effort of discernment on his/her part.
WRONG AGAIN, MOUS! What I DID SAY is this, “If Bishops are not in full communion with the Church you’re darn right I don’t want to be in communion with them.” You said that I said, “you do not want to be in full communion with the Catholic Church.” You leave out the most important words. You left out, “If Bishops are not in full communion with the Church.” Why would I want to be in communion with Bishops who are not in full communion with the Church? It makes no sense to me as a Catholic. That is heresy and schism. I will go where I know the Bishop is not in schism or heresy and is in full communion with the Church. Little word twisting, eh?
Anonymous: Wrong again on another point! The names of the 6 Protestant ministers are: The six Protestant Ministers who helped design the New Mass were: Drs. George, Jasper, Shepherd, Kunneth, Smith and Thurian. Go check them out!
RR is also one who has been immersed in the SSPX heresies and schism. God love her. I only posted facts about their beloved SSPX…..the truth offends them. Double standard. The truth sure hurts. With RR’s posts it reaffirmed me as to why we should continue to have the information out to save souls. WE need to rebuttal their arguments with facts, follow up with prayer and fasting to help them leave the cultish heretical views that SSPX has formed in their members. The rest we leave them in God’;s hands. If God took mercy upon my friend, who left the SSPX, then we must trust that he will with those in whom we pray for. I was reading more of what their founder was teaching and I found several heretical teachings, its no wonder they have this type of anger militant style type of take over. I have demonstrated before, for those who are following well, how they use words that demonize and dehumanize just so they can intimidate etc..
What cultish heretical views, Abeca? You still haven’t supplied anything, but erroneous half truths. You yourself wrote:
“…When people judge Pope Francis often and magnify his flaws, which yes I also find concerning but let us remember that Lefebvre is not much different than Pope Francis. They both cause different types of scandals that it leaves to the conclusion that we are not to put our trust in men but only in Christ and His church, we are to remain faithful.”
So your position on the matter of the Faith seems very much in line with the Society. What are readers to make of your assertions that Pope Francis is less than what he should be? You’re riding the fence here, Abeca, as you and your friend seem to have a particularly dull ax to grind.
Abeca: I see a flip-flop you just did like Ann and Catherine say. In your post to me On jan 5th at 1:56 pm you were very kind to me. You told me, “I value you and do not want to stir division” and in the next post to me 26 minutes later you said, “RR is also one who has been immersed in the SSPX heresies and schism.” FLIP-FLOP! You both love and hate me! LOL! Also, I AM NOT A PIUS X!!! Although, I do support them in their beliefs because they hold on to Church Traditions and beliefs and not the watered down version of Church teaching. And I refuse to get into it any further whatsoever with you because I am not a Pius X and I am also not obsessed over them. You are NOT GOD NOR THE VOICE OF CHURCH AUTHORITY so stop acting like it and stop judging people who are devoted to Christ and His Church.
…thank goodness for eyes to see, RR.
God bless
When former S.S. Captain Erich Priebke died in October 2013, the Diocese of Rome forbade a Requiem Mass for him. The reasons cited were Priebke’s involvement in murdering 335 Italians in the 1944 Ardeatine Massacre and his subsequent lack of remorse. SSPX offered to hold a funeral and issued a statement on their website saying, “A Christian who was baptized and received the sacraments of confession and the Eucharist, no matter what his faults and sins were, to the extent that he dies reconciled with God and the church, has a right to the celebration of the holy Mass and a funeral.” Nevertheless the ceremony was not held due to 500 protesters outside the SSPX headquarters in Albano. The lawyer, Paolo Giachini, told reporters outside the SSPX headquarters that the funeral Mass had not taken place, but that he had fulfilled his obligation to arrange a funeral. “Now it’s up to the authorities to decide what to do with the body,” since he was unable to find a city where Priebke could be buried.
What is your point here, Abeca? What aspect of the Faith was abraded by what you just posted. The only thing I see again is your own dogged agenda of browbeating with no basis of understanding concepts and motives.
I think the effort here is to smear the SSPX by associating them with the Nazi SS. Weak minds will run with it.
I’d say that’s a foregone conclusion ,Campion. They already have ! ;)
No its to show double standard. These facts only show that if this was about V2 you people would be thriving in it and feeding your prejudices but since its not, youll excuse it.
Then tell SPPX Bishop Williamson, the Holocaust denier, that he is weak minded.
Caritas, you really need to read and keep up with what is current. Grabbing stuff out of thin air just for show doesn’t show well either.
God bless you caritas for doing your homework. I posting about the SSPX because I am tired of the double standards here. I don’t like how they treated you and Carol. Their behavior is uncalled for and unwelcoming to those who are faithful Catholics who appreciate knowing which churches are worth driving too. This behavior on this website has been going on for too long. They blame the liberals of being the thought police but they should look in the mirror, now seeing their unholy behavior here and even to the point where it is not civil, that I just about had it. We ladies should all strive to role model after our Blessed Virgin Mary.
Well anyhoo, They end up provoking you in ways that can be sinful, so I had to detach myself and be more prayerful, offering up what I can for their salvation. I can say that I pray the rosary more than I have ever in my life.
The worst thing is that they don’t see the error of their ways with their insults and slander. There is no reasoning with their kind. They want to fix the homosexual activist that come here, but how can they when they need their own hearts softened and fixed to the real message that the Lord has given us. Obedience is a gift, being in full communion with Christ’s church is a great start, but they come often with excuses and say “will you obey sin”…OF course not! Being obedient means to God and His church in full communion with Rome, which His faith does not change but men still are men, they are not perfect and we should work often on being meek and humble of heart to understand those differences. In the end we all will have to answer to God. Lets just pray that we persevere in His truths in full communion fighting the good fight.
” But there are plenty arguing that the NO, promulgated by the same Church, IS invalid.”
caritas, It’s best that you find a new moniker such as ‘mendaciunculum’, which is Latin for falsehood, FIB, or lie, especially if you are not going to tell the truth. Please copy the exact posts and dates where I wrote or Ann Malley wrote that the NO Mass was invalid. You will not find one because I never said that and Ann Malley has never said that. Why are you lying about us? You have not done your homework caritas. Post the exact names because you used the word “plenty” and let the CCD “plenty” that you accuse respond. Now that would be caritas.
It appears to be an obvious effort to smear the SSPX by associating them with the Nazi SS. The low-information crowd will run with it.
Low information is the word.
Just like the many media articles on our true Catholic church. Just like they ran off with our Popes words ” who am I to judge” and they took it out of context and the SSPX followers, just like the homosexual activist, thrived on that in different ways of course, used it out of context too. Pope Francis does concern us but its no reason to feed off his words that were taken out of context and twisted! There is no truth with deceivers just what they want to see or hear. The truth is the truth and you and Catherine have gone all out too on a smear effort against the church I love and have discerned to be true! Smearing my faith and love of Jesus…you know how you contributed to that…God have mercy on us all.
Abeca, you imagine smears so that you can play the great and victimized defender. Look to the post you just wrote about the Pope being a man. By your standards, you just smeared him and again, by your standards, the Church.
Read what you write and take responsibility for it.
No not imagining. Ive given facts with your word usage like ‘bipolar, estrogen, magnified martyred syndrom etc etc’. You follow those tactics. Well So RR’s complaining does that make her the great victimized defender of SSPX. Your too much. You cant even make good sound arguements.
You’re not too much, Abeca, but rather what I’ve come to expect. You still haven’t responded to how you justify smearing Pope Francis. By your logic here you called him a schismatic heretic. Deal with what you wrote, Abeca, and understand that folks are responding to that.
This is why the focus should be on the crisis in the Church and you smearing Pope Francis right here on CCD – not your upset over terms you find personally offensive. It’s not about you, remember, it’s about souls. God bless.
But megabites of copy and paste quotes. ;)
Not really. There is plenty of readily available information, going back to SSPX’s origins:
Lefebvre:
* Supported the Vichy government in France
* Supported fascist dictators Francisco Franco and Agusto Pinochet
* Open endorsed Jean-Marie le Pen
SSPX harbored fugitive Nazi collaborator and eventual Crimes Against Humanity convict Paul Touvier.
Lefebvre-(illiicly)-ordained bishop Richard Williamson is a outspoken Holocaust denier. He was ousted, but over internal politics, not anything related to his antisemitism.
Both Williamson and Fellay have called Jews “Enemies of Christ”. It’s not like Fellay is any better… It’s a virulently antisemitic organization.
The Erich Priebke funeral fiasco is a pretty good case study. SSPX disobeyed and directive from the Vatican, and got lots of attention for it… all of it highly embarrassing. Disrupting a Holocaust memorial in 2013. They have a well-earned reputation for being the Catholic equivalent of the Taliban.
Honestly, it’s hard to see why SSPX would even want to be in communion with Rome. It’s not suited to being anything more than a small fringe cult.
* Supported fascist dictators Francisco Franco and Agusto Pinochet, so what these men crushed the Communist sworn enemies of mother Church…
Two wrongs do not make a right, Canisius. Franco, Pinochet, and all the Communists were murders and authoritarian dictators. One does not have to support Pinochet in order to oppose Communists, or did you know?
Campion, do you assert that SSPX Bishop Williamson long spouted the view that the Holocaust didn’t happen/was grossly exaggerated?
Hear it in his own words:
Thanks Hugh I don’t understand why they give a blind eye to the heresies of the SSPX and the problematic issues that they brought against salvation and Christ’s church. The many issues we face today are partially due to their example to disconnect with the church. Now they will label you as hating the SSPX. It is not. It is about correcting their errors and in doing so, it may help them return to Rome. For the sake of those who follow and attend SSPX, we need to be firm and always stand in the truth…..even if they use name calling or mock or use your words out of context, we must be firm with love. Lets pray for them, lets offer up the rosary. IF we are obligated to correct, do what we can do within our church, to correct the errors then we also have a moral obligation to correct those on the outside especially more since they advocate being Catholic. Some seem to have worked against our mission to spread the gospel and in their doing so has caused this, their double standard ways didn’t fly with me.
“…The many issues we face today are partially due to their example to disconnect with the church.”
Abeca, your complete disconnect of taking accountability for your own irrational posts mirrors the irrationality coming out of the Vatican for the past 50+ years. You can try all you’d like to blame others for the fact that the sheep are scandalized, but you’re still scandalizing with the utter lack of reasoning with regard to your own inexplicable behavior. Laying it all on trusting in the Lord doesn’t hold water either as you could say the same about every abuse within the Church – they just trusted in the Lord and did whatever.
Good grief but you are a stellar example of what is wrong. Smiling and covering up the garbage just isn’t hiding the smell anymore. Sorry. And neither is pointing a finger at whoever passes by.
Whatever your fixation on ‘double standard’ look to yourself in this area.
Ann Malley, you are a former Catholic who comes on to a Catholic website. Yes, we know you think you are better than us. You have made abundantly clear.
I, for one, am quite wearied by your unwarranted attacks on the Catholic Church. Whatever smell you think you smell is coming from your own soul.
This argument is what you call “the ever-increasing net” device. Bishop Williamson expresses personal opinions= therefore, anti-Semite, therefore all trads and SSPX = anti-Semites. Ex-SS given funeral rites, therefore SSPX = Nazi SS. Bishop Fellay expresses personal doubts, therefore all trads are anti-Semites.
The accusation of anti-Semitism or Nazi affiliation is always leveled by the progressive-left, esp the Communist left, against trad or even somewhat conservative-faith, Catholics. Pius XII was accused, JP2 was accused, and of course Ratzinger/BXVI was accused (also of being “Hitler Youth”, when he was unwillingly forced into service in a end-of-the war Volksturm Home Defense AA battery).
What most people dont know about the Ardeatine Cave incident is that, besides the many completely innocent people who were massacred, the largest single group executed were members of the militant Bandiera Rossa Italian partisan group—the reason that the Italian very-left press and its contemporary partisans, such as Giovanni Franzoni (the “Red Abbot”), pressed this issue was to create a memorial event for the Bandiera Rossa “martyrs”. .. and to bludgeon their enemies, esp. the Catholic Church into political submission. And it worked! But you didnt know that, did you?
In the case of SSPX, a lot of this in the DNA. It’s rooted the contempt for modernism/relativism and ecumenism. The antisemitism appears to have as much to do with maintaining the resolute supremacy of Catholicism as it does with being a small fringe-y group where nonsense like the Elders of Zion conspiracy can have traction.
There is way too much evidence of antisemitism to dismiss so easily. Google SSPX and antisemitism. Tons of quotes, lots of it published by various chapters. It’s endemic, but maybe antisemitism is unfair, as it’s anti-everything else.
Canisus demonstrates well how someone could justify supporting a Fascist autocrat. Pinochet and Franco were Catholics… Pinochet had death squads and Franco had concentration camps, but also enforced some more conservative Catholic sexual/social mores by reign of terror. Depending on how willing you are to throw reason out the window, that can ostensibly make up for the other horrors of a military dictatorship. So much better than the godless Communists, right?
PS. Bandiera Rossa were a resistance movement against Mussolini. Who cares if they were militant? Or Rossa (red)? Sounds like you’re defending their massacre…
Bandiera Rossa was an equally ruthless Communist 5th column, who believed as did the SS, in murder and torture, in their case, to take over Italy after German occupation ended. So murder is justified, as is calling anti-Semitism “in one’s DNA”, as long as it smears your perceived enemy. , the trads. Just as has been done with Pius XII, etc. Here one can see the bitterness of hatred directed against any trad Cath group. But you didn’t know that. Not that facts matter.
Lenin called it, “All for the cause. “
…if one has the Faith then one understands that the Catholic Church is supreme, Hugh. It comes from Christ Himself. That is why this degrading into false ecumenical dialog that gives credence to error for the sake of getting along is so dangerous.
So when you say, “It’s rooted the contempt for modernism/relativism and ecumenism,” you are almost nearly correct with the exception of needing to add the modifier of ‘false’ to ecumenism.
Catholics who have the fullness of Faith should be anti-modernism, anti-relativism, and anti-it’s-all-good (Christ didn’t teach that it was all good, Hugh, but told the Apostles to go forth and baptize all nations, teaching what they had been taught – not accepting error to avoid martyrdom.)
Thanks for posting.
Steve Phoenix, there is not hate for traditionalism; as long as you stay in the Catholic Church, you can be traditional even ultra-traditional. It is duping people into believing that they are attending a Catholic Church and misleading people into thinking they are preserving the True Faith, while they are simply suspended priests who are rebelling against the Catholic Church. This is why anyone who attends their Mass was threatened with excommunication by Bishop Bruskewitz. Medicinal remedy.
The SSPX only teach the traditional Catholicism that suits them. They themselves are modernists and relativists. If you understood the Faith as it was taught before Vatican II, you would not be fooled by these disobedient and rebellious men.
“Worshiping with SSPX is the same communion as an ordained man who married a woman and is saying Mass as the Marriott with the puppets and ‘women priests’.
The Eucharist is valid and the Romans haven’t cut y’all loose but your scraping the bottom of the barrel in the spiritual world. You’re not in some underground group preserving our religion. You’re in a group with people who’ve invented their own magisterium. ”
From
https://throwthebumsoutin2010.blogspot.com/2014/04/franciphobians-cry-whats-wrong-with-sspx.html
This is from the SSPX website:
“We have been living in independence from the Pope and the Bishops for a very long time, as if that were normal. We pretend to defend the doctrine, but we all run the risk of establishing a chosen doctrine, abandoning certain dogmas, those that bother us, especially those concerning the primacy of Peter. We all run the risk of becoming accustomed to the abnormal, of living in a comfortable situation, as if it were right and in conformity with the spirit of the Church. The Pope and the bishops are little by little confined to the realm of the beings “of reason”, with no influence on concrete life; Rome is no more than a pilgrimage site, and the Church is a Mystical Body with Jesus Christ for a head, the Holy Ghost for a soul, and the “Trads” for members. Our priests can quickly become gurus. Everyone could be a Pope with his Denzinger in hand, and every father of every family could be the Pope of his family. In these conditions, our children would no longer have any idea of what the real Church is in its full incarnation, from head to members, in all the realities of daily life.
As for authority… recognized in principle but not admitted in fact as far as the Pope is concerned, it risks no longer being recognized at any degree whatsoever.
Campion, I would just observe that Ann Malley, as an example, has written in these pages that the young Nazis who committed atrocities did not bear responsibility for their actions because they were told to act a certain way by their superiors. It is not uncommon to find among neo-Nazis in Holland and Germany a rejection of Vatican II. And ultra right-wing dictator Franco in Spain imposted conservative Catholicism on his country for decades.
“…I would just observe that Ann Malley, as an example, has written in these pages that the young Nazis who committed atrocities did not bear responsibility for their actions because they were told to act a certain way by their superiors.”
The above is an entirely false statement, YFC. I said that you cannot paint all those who fought for Germany in WWII as being anti-Semetic or those who were forced into the Nazi youth. I know older people who fled Germany who, when in the home of their birth, had been forced into these ‘youth’ groups. The same can be said for young soldiers, YFC.
For someone who always claims to not want to be pidgeon holed for one aspect of ‘who you are’ you certainly seem to believe it all right to do the same to others from an era and under a regime that was horrific to live under. Have you never heard of Claus von Stauffenberg? Not everyone was pro Nazi. Grow up.
GREAT to see you posting again Steve Phoenix. And so on top of the facts as usual.
God bless.
Anonymous, you prove by your posts that the Society does indeed recognize the Pope as the Pope. Thank you for posting. But your insistence on declaring that which is far above your pay grade is just an example of your own lack of obedience or the observance of keeping to ‘your’ duty of state. Yours is not to judge the situation as it is being handled at a higher level.
IOW: While you falsely accuse others of being out of communion you are doing so with a massive dose of priest/Pope envy.
Ann Malley, the devil recognizes the Pope as the Pope, too.
So do the Protestants. But they do not recognize him as the Vicar of Christ and give him obedience. And they are independent of the Catholic Church.
Did you read the part where the SSPX priests said that they are independent of the Pope and the Bishops? That means they are independent of the Catholic Church!
I posted the quote from the SSPX website.
You can attend and defend any chapel and priestly fraternity you want to but don’t lie and say they are Catholic. They are suspended Catholic priests who operate independently of the Catholic Church. They are not a Catholic organization. They are not preserving the True Faith. If you knew the Faith, you would know that.
…and the Orthodox who are *formally schismatic* do not recognize the authority of the Pope as the Vicar of Christ, mous. That means they are independent of the Catholic Church. That is why stating that the Orthodox can attain salvation outside the Catholic Church while not recognizing the authority of the Pope while saying that Traditional Catholics who do recognize the authority of the Pope, but strive to maintain the fullness of Faith in the face of the above disconnect to that very fullness, is absolute absurdity. If you cannot grasp that, you have issues far deeper than can be assessed and/or addressed on CCD.
Ann Malley, there is no salvation outside the Church. The issue you are referring to is personal guilt. “However, for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity.” From Catholic Answers
https://www.catholic.com/tracts/salvation-outside-the-church
Ann Malley, I know your purpose here is to confuse and decieve the Children of God. When did the Catholic Church ever say that the Orthodox can attain salvation outside the Catholic Church while not recognizing the authority of the Pope?
The question is schism. Traditional Catholics who never would leave the Church to join with a schismatic group or would never attend a parish that has not been duly erected by the local bishop really don’t have any problem with salvation.
Those who call themselves traditional Catholic while attending parishes that are not in union with the Catholic Church are deceiving themselves as to how traditional they really are.
So, Anonymous, you don’t see the disconnect in proclaiming that salvation can be had in a ‘formally’ schismatic Orthodox Church that is not in union with Rome because it does not submit to the authority of the Pope?
You can talk all around that issue as much as you’d like, but that is preaching, “Don’t preach. Don’t evangelize. Don’t relate there is no salvation outside the Church because what ‘Church’ means now is up for grabs.”
So yes, I am talking about choices here – the official yet unofficial choice to be inconsistent in teaching/preaching. As to the state of the Orthodox Churches you may want to check with Caritas and his/her post at: caritas says:
January 3, 2015 at 9:50 am
You may want to take your proclamation of a “mission to confuse the children of God” to the hierarchy that is so confusing. Targeting those who would like clarity is not going to solve your problem.
You are confusing me. I know of no Church document that proclaims that salvation can be had (whatever that means) in a schismatic Church.
Could you please post a link or name the document?
What do you need clarity on?
The Church’s teaching is “There is no salvation outside the Church.”
Does that mean that everyone outside the Church goes to hell? Not according to Bishop Fellay of the SSPX who is reported to have said:
“Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church. He lives according to his conscience and to the laws which God has put into his heart. He can be in the state of grace, and if he dies in this state of grace, he will go to heaven.”
I have never heard anything like that from the Catholic Church. How would he get in a state of grace without baptism? Maybe you could find out for us.
I love the Catholic Church.
And I don’t find the hierarchy confusing at all.
Perhaps you need to spend more time learning and praying to the Holy Spirit for the gift of understanding.
I am sure that your questions can be resolved.
Anonymous, since you have expressed confusion even over the term ‘salvation’, it might be best for you to seek out your pastor and ask him these basic questions. The statement you posted regarding the potential salvation of those in a state of invincible ignorance is true and wholly Catholic.
As to what was said regarding salvation in the Orthodox Churches, ask Caritas. Mine was only a refutation of the logic therein.
God bless.
Again, and again, and again –
People should keep this link as a favorite because it is OFFICIAL.
The Vatican will let us know when/if there are any OFFICIAL changes.
https://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20090310_remissione-scomunica_en.html
Per Pope Benedict XVI in a letter to ALL Bishops throughout the world
dated March, 2009 AFTER the excommunication of the four SSPX Bishops was lifted in Jan of 2009:
QUOTE: ” The fact that the Society of Saint Pius X does NOT possess a canonical status in the Church is not, in the end, based on disciplinary but on doctrinal reasons.
As long as the SOCIETY does NOT have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers DO NOT EXERCISE LEGITIMATE MINISTRIES in the CHURCH. There needs to be a distinction, then, between the disciplinary level, which deals with individuals as such, and the doctrinal level, at which ministry and institution are involved.
In order to make this clear once again: until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the SOCIETY has NO CANONICAL STATUS in the CHURCH,
and its ministers – even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty – DO NOT LEGITIMATELY EXERCISE ANY MINISTRY in the CHURCH. ” UNQUOTE.
This should be the end of the political debate. There are no other facts, and the SSPX does not legitimately exercise any ministry within the Church.
Pray for Unity.
Apparently people dont know that Bp Williamson was expelled from the SSPX because his views did not represent the SSPX’s charism, according to the SSPX’s own major superior. However, low-information people with an agenda to express a vicious hatred toward traditional Catholic movements will never miss an opportunity, no matter how factless, to smear their supposed enemies–esp. if they are trads.
As for the Priebke case, an unworthy attempt to paint the SSPX as pro-Nazi by association:
Not that facts matter, but Priebke in a July, 2013 interview renounced his previous anti-Semitic and other Nazi views and expressed remorse for his past (people dont want that, though: a witch-burning is needed). He had converted to the Catholic faith years after the war, due to the influence of his wife; he had also previously on at least two occasions expressed his regret for his part in the murders at the Ardeatine cave. He regularly attended Mass and confession. In 2013, he was almost 100 years old at this point, and to doubt a man facing his Maker at this stage of his life, this I leave to the omniscient crowd that so proudly waves here the Pope Francis flag. The fact was the cowardly decision to refuse burial rites to Priebke by Bp Marcello Semararo of Albano came directly from Pope Francis as he in fact, as bishop of Rome, was fearful of the outcry from powerful far-left forces who hate the Church and how they might view him.
Well put Campion, but oh how the enemies of the Church would embrace a former communist conversion. The Left is inherently evil
Bishop Williamson was expelled for leading a sort of coup of more hardline SSPX against Fellay, going as far as publicly calling for his ouster, criticizing him for acquiescing to Rome, and drafting a list of non-negotiables that would never realistically happen.
In an oblique way, his holocaust denial had something to do with it… the interview was aired the same week as lifting his excommunication, embarrassing SSPX and angering Benedict. Seems like, aside from eliminating a political threat, Fellay was also making nice the Vatican.
As for Erich Priebke, he never apologized. He offered defensive justifications. “I was following orders” … “they were guilty” … “If you mess with Hitler, you must accept the consequences.” His defense for being a Nazi officer was that if you were German in 1933, that was your path in life. Look it up. He went so far as to have his lawyer release a posthumous video with more of that. Not at all adequate.
Who knows the status of his soul … but SSPX getting involved in dignifying the death of a publicly unrepentant war criminal was an incredibly stupid political act. Really just bizarre. Why choose that as the battle line to openly defy the Church and capture a moment of the world’s attention? If anything it’s evidence of how far off the deep end they are.
In the April, 1996 statement at his sentencing was one of the (at least two) times Priebke specifically expressed remorse for his participation in the Ardeatine caves crimes. Read it.
But that was never the point: the point of many who comment here is to smear trad Catholics as Nazi-symp atizers
Us “low information people”, whatever that means, understand that Fellay said what he felt he needed to say to keep SSPX together in the midst of a scandal he and his fellow bishops including Lefebvre should have seen coming. Unless, of course, they sympathized with his opinions.
Ah, yes, a scandal based on human respect and politics, not the scandal today that is attempting to turn homosexual sexual activity into nothin’ but a thang, the latter actually being sinful. But there are many in the new order who sympathize with your opinions, YFC, not because they have the Faith, but rather because they do not.
Yes, Phoenix: “..It’s in their DNA.” Low – info people will run with it..
At least “Hugh” is correcting his facts on Bp. Williamson—now–as well as being forced into finding out that the Italian Communist Party was the principle force behind the sensationalism of the Priebke case. “Not that facts matter.”
And please note Card. Dolan was proudly present at extreme pro – abort Gov. Mario Cuomo ‘ s funeral at Jesuit-run St Ignatius Church on Park Ave in NYC yesterday. Sure glad that wasn’t a canonical case of scandal ( Canons 1185-1186, New Code). How many were destroyed by Como ‘ s participation in the American Holocaust?
Campion, you are defending Bishop Williamson? Interesting, since birds of a feather flock together. Try changing the subject to Cardinal Dolan, since you and Williamson clearly belong in the dustbin of history. His infamy and yours don’t belong united to Rome.
But Dolan’s infamy and yours in future parades do belong in Rome? Give it up YFC. Political correctness ends at the grave, friend, even for the smiling bishops who behave as if they might live forever or are guaranteed last rites upon their death bed. So yes, birds of a feather do flock together, especially the rainbow kind.
The facts are, which Hugh and others did not seem to know, are that Williamson was expelled fr the SSPX. Not that facts matter.
Also, that this whole effort (Priebke, Bp. Williamson, etc.)is to mask the hatred of trad Catholics by smearing them all as anti-Semites and Nazi sympathizers, a desperately foul calumny. Meanwhile, the real modern Nazi’s and anti-Semites are daily launching rocket attacks and suicide attacks on Israel, and most Catholics today are silent.
..And meanwhile, other Abortion Holocaust Catholics ARE buried, like Cuomo, like Ted Kennedy, with high praise, accolades, with cardinals and hierarchy present, and here there is no “scandal” (apparently) to the faithful (Canon 1184.3), new Code Canon Law), as so quickly was Priebke was. But you didn’t ‘get’ that connection. Too many facts for low – info people.