The following comes from a July 17 posting on Christian Pundit.
A friend of mine attended a Christian college where almost all of the students, including her, grew up in non-denominational, evangelical Protestant churches. A few years after graduation, she is the only person in her graduating class who is not Roman Catholic, high Anglican or Lutheran. The town I live in has several “evangelical” Protestant colleges: on Ash Wednesday you can tell who studies at them by the ash crosses on their foreheads.
Young Christians are going over to Catholicism and high Anglicanism/Lutheranism in droves, despite growing up in low Protestant churches that told them about Jesus. It’s a trend that is growing, and it looks like it might go that way for a while: people who grew up in stereotypical, casual evangelicalism are running back past their parents’ church to something that looks like it was dug out of Europe a couple hundred years ago at least. It’s encouraged by certain emergent leaders and by other “Christian” authors whose writings promote “high” theology under a Protestant publisher’s cover.
Ten or fifteen years ago, it was American evangelical congregations that seemed cutting edge. They had the bands, the coolest youth pastor, professional babysitting for every women’s Bible study, and a church library full of Christian novels. But now, to kids who grew up in that context, it seems a bit dated or disconnected—the same kind of feeling that a 90′s movie gives them. Not that it’s not a church; it’s just feels to them the way that 50′s worship felt to their parents. So they leave. If they don’t walk away from Christianity completely, they head to Rome or something similar.
In a way, it’s hard to understand. Why would you trade your jeans, fair-trade coffee, a Bible and some Getty songs for formal “church clothes”, fasting, a Bible and a priest? It makes no sense to want to kneel on a stone floor instead of sit in a comfy chair. And if you’re hearing about Jesus anyway, why does it really matter?
In another way, it’s very obvious why these kids are leaving and going where they are. In her recent article, “Change Wisely, Dude”, Andrea Palpant Dilley explains her own shift from Presbyterianism to apostacy to generic evangelicalism to high church: “In my 20s, liturgy seemed rote, but now in my 30s, it reminds me that I’m part of an institution much larger and older than myself. As the poet Czeslaw Milosz said, ‘The sacred exists and is stronger than all our rebellions.’ Both my doubt and my faith, and even my ongoing frustrations with the church itself, are part of a tradition that started before I was born and will continue after I die. I rest in the assurance that I have something to lean against, something to resist and, more importantly, something that resists me.”
The kids who leave evangelical Protestantism are looking for something the world can’t give them. The world can give them hotter jeans, better coffee, bands, speakers, and book clubs than a congregation can. What it can’t give them is theology; membership in a group that transcends time, place and race; a historic rootedness; something greater than themselves; ordained men who will be spiritual leaders and not merely listeners and buddies and story-tellers. What the kids leaving generic evangelicalism seem to want is something the world can never give them–a holy Father who demands reverence, a Saviour who requires careful worship, and a Spirit who must be obeyed. They are looking for true, deep, intellectually robust spirituality in their parents’ churches and not finding it….
To read the entire posting, click here.
Tradition! Tradition! There is a saying, “To be steeped in history is to cease to be Protestant.” I know I always loved history and ended up a convert to the Catholic Church because of it, and these young people are gradually making their way back too. Welcome home.
I read the entire article via the link. The remainder informs the reader how evangelicals can and are keeping their kids from leaving. All in all, very interesting.
Many of my relatives attend some of those mega-churches and I’ve often wondered what will become of them when that now-great-preacher has retired or moved on? It all seems to center around a great preacher rather than around Christ, so it’s all pretty ephemeral, at best. The non-denominational church my brother attends has become so anxious to attract young people that ‘Christian’ rock music blares from speakers and congregants can take coffee cups etc. with them to their cushiony pews! I kid you not! They even talk during the service!
You can look to the Crystal Cathedral to see what can happen after a mega-church pastor retires.
Yes! It gets bought by the Diocese of Orange and becomes a*real* Crystal Cathedral!!!
Your right – In my day we had many Catholic Schools and Priests, Brothers and Sisters always available to speak with us if there was a problem or questions regarding the Church or anything in general for that matter – V2 stopped all of this and it seems we have professional career leaders rather than religious leaders – Sad, very sad –
Exactly, Eric. We used to have “shareware” Catholicism; now we’ve got professional Catholicism. With shareware we can find answers when the need arises, but with what we’ve got now, the people who know the answers do not share them freely, but make their living off what God intends to be free, ie salvation. I suspect that this explains why this blog site has such a pronounced dearth of high end intellects. What puzzles me is the dearth of high end intellects in who make their livings in fields other than relgion, and who know Catholicism: Why are these so scarce? Why do they not come forth on the blogs and liven up the shareware Catholicism? There is a vast gradient from modest intellect through top end brain power: Why would someone who knows not be willing to straighten out those who have trouble with the concepts, with the insights … Why should the Church be satisfied with lower intellects carrying around dull and ignorant concepts? Some of these folks seem to think that gaining religious knowledge is a fight, but it’s not; it’s humility. It’s not who’s right; it’s how to become right.
Skai, perhaps you would like to peruse our Catholic website. It aims to educate as well as inspire. catholicism dot org
It was not Vatican II that did this. It was the abuses against Vatican II. Vatican II gets credit/blame for doing much that is nowhere written in the documents of the council. A great majority of Catholics have no idea of what Vatican II REALLY did or intended because it got hijacked by innovators before it even had a chance, and Catholics never read the documents to see the discrepancies between the documents and what they were led to believe. Just read “Sacrametum Concilium” and tell me how many parishes have made Gregorian chant the primary music or have “retained Latin” as the document required, and nowhere did the council say to remove the sanctuary railing or do any of many more innovations that happened. I conclude that ” an educated Catholic is also a good Catholic”.
You are right, John. People just believe what they are told sometimes and do not question anything if that is what they want to believe.
Well, because maybe Jesus wants to bring the Bible to the Catholic Church.
Bring the Bible to the Catholic Church? Oh Boy? Skai, you really don’t know the faith at all. The only thing you seem to know is the Eucharistic Presence of Jesus Christ. You remind me of another person who had a similar experience to yours where the presence of Christ in the Eucharist was manifested to them miraculously. You at least have read the Bible (not that you don’t put your own interpretation on it.) This person think they have no need of the bishops, or the CCC or even the Bible. They rely solely on what they think and feel. They are pro-choice and pro-gay marriage, pro-government programs.
Well, at least this “Anonymous” has his or her brain up and running, unlike several of the other replies. This is a good sign, a sign of hope. But you’re still at the stage of trying to put square pegs in round holes. You folks really ought to go to the trouble to read Bl John Paul II’s life work on the nature of the person. Also, try reading the Bible in such a way that A. you grasp what the words say, B. you understand what every sentence says, C. you remember what you read. It just seems like so many of you watch a half hour Bible program on TV and then figure you’ve got it down.
Skai – the Bible is not the same document instituted 2000 years ago – It has been changed so many times it very hard to believe what it is really trying to tell us – I look back to my Bible I received in the 50’s and the one used today and they are saying two (or more) different things – It seems to me it is now a guide but where it is leading us I have no idea –
It just so happens that the Biblical readings are read at every single Catholic Mass. On Sunday you get and Old Testament reading a New Testament reading a Psalm and the Gospel. During the other 6 days of the week there are 3 readings. New or Old Testament Psalm and Gospel. All of this 265 days of the year.
…and even the other 100 days too. ;-) Actually, one of the beautiful characteristics of the Church is that every moment of every day, the Mass is being said. Every second of every day, someone is receiving Communion. It is the “perpetual sacrifice” spoken of in Daniel.
Skai,
“Well, because maybe Jesus wants to bring the Bible to the Catholic Church.” You know better than that, the Catholic Church has always had the whole Bible, no missing books, and it has always had the Mass which consists of more Bible reading than most Evangelicals get, but it has also encouraged private reading of the Bible by granting Indulgences for such reading!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Kenneth, countless individual Catholics have never received “the Bible”. The Church has the Bible, but countless members of the Church do not, nor do they even know much of what it is, they do not know what it says, they are starving for the Word of God. “Isaias (Isaiah) 5:13
Therefore is my people led away captive, because they had not knowledge, and their nobles have perished with famine, and their multitude were dried up with thirst.” Interpreting this passage will be insurmountable by some readers, which only proves the point made by this Prophet.
Dear Skai:
Excuse Me! I am Roman Catholic and have attended bible studies, read my bible along with my RC friends. In addition I get 3 bible readings every Sunday from the priest in addition to the psalms. What you don’t get is that RCs receive the Body and Blood of Christ which comes right out of John 6. Seems to me that you are the one not getting the bible kiddo. I am in love with Christ and my church. IN LOVE. Sharon. PS: I will pray that you lose that attitude that sits like a CHIP on your shoulder that controls your hand. Get it? God Bless you.
The Catholic Church gave everyone the bible. It’s a Catholic book, please look up church history.
Jesus didn’t leave us the Christian Bible. It didn’t exist. The Catholic Church gave it to us.
Skai see what I mean?
Let this article be a reminder to us all to keep praying for our youth no matter where they come from…..I can’t express enough how important that is to do so. They all need our prayers.
I also disagree…I see more Catholic youth leave to attend those mega churches with video games and such. At the mall near by my house, there is an advertisement from a non-denominational church that says “come as you are, even with your sandals” ……. I think that is still very appealing to them in my area….there is a church near by that they call the Rock n Roll church….most of whom attend are Catholics who left the faith.
Those who leave will eventually come back if they are sincerely following Christ. Evangelical Protestantism only gives so much. Also,
a lot of youth these days are not only battling secularism but out and out paganism and the occult. Evangelical Christianity is ultimately incapable of driving out the devil. ONLY Christ’s Sacramental Church can do that.
“a lot of youth these days are not only battling secularism but out and out paganism and the occult”: Amazing, must be something new in history.
It is not really new, Skai, as the occult — astrology, spiritualism, numerology, etc. has always been popular in certain parts of the U.S.A. and in the Middle Ages. President Lincoln’s wife was into spiritualism (calling up the dead) after their son died, even though the Bible forbade it. He allowed her to have seances in the White House to humor her, he thought to help comfort her, but she ended up in a mental institution. There is the Winchester House in San Jose, California, that has doors and stairs that lead to nowhere. Sarah Winchester, whose husband developed and sold the Winchester rifle, had a lot of guilt over the people who died from his rifle and got into calling up the dead and went crazy, but because she was wealthy she was able to have carpenters built a huge weird house just the way she said the spirits told her to do so.
“if they are sincerely following Christ”, if you lead them instead of resting in your vanity. OK, harsh words! Try reading Thomas a’ Kempis, “Imitation of Christ”, and you’ll see my words as easy to take.
Abeca Christian, they can only keep children and teens children and teens for so long, then they mature and want something more substantial. When they actually read the Bible for themselves, they begin to question as I did. As St. Paul said, “When I was a child, I thought as a child, I behaved of a child, but when I became a man, I put away childish things.” I left out some of that verse, but that is the substance.
Also, many of their teachers are not Biblically well informed as they say the are. I had one woman who was teaching a Bible class tell me that fornication was just idolatry and not sex outside of marriage. She was wrong of course. It is both. Understandably, it affected her behavior and that of her grandchildren. I kid you not.
That is what St. Paul meant when he said that Scripture was not meant for private interpretation, and that some would twist it to their own damnation. When she meantioned how she did not understand another denominations interpretation about no music in their services, and that she did understand where they got that from the Bible, I told her that was why the Catholic Church had forbidden private interpretation, it made her angry, but hopefully some of it got through to her.
Correction: I meant to write that “she did NOT understand where” in my sixth line. Also, many Evanglicals do have a good understanding of the morals values of the Bible, unlike the woman to whom I was talking, so I was not talking about such well-informed people and ministers, although they do use private interpretation somewhat.
Ann T I disagree…..many still do not return because of their heretical indoctrination of Virgin Mary. Well it does not matter who is right or wrong, it’s about saving souls and we need to keep them in our prayers but first nurture our own salvation.
Your are right about those those who many times are not really looking for the truth. One can usually spot them because they have a blind spot and will change the subject if one gives them a passage in Scripture that backs up Catholic teaching. They really do not want the truth, not at that time at least.
And, Abeca, that is usually when they have brought up the subject themselves by denying Church teaching from the Bible. I find it is usually because the person has something going on in his/her life that is against Church teaching, and they just cannot face the truth at that time if ever.
To all those that think these up-beat Rock and Roll churches is the way of the future…I just would like to remind them this revelation from a former Mason priest. This is the New World Order- Universal Religion, people
This is # 7 of 33: E mail me if you would like the whole list.
7 Eliminate the sacred music of the organ. Introduce guitars, harps, drums, pounding and holy laughter in the churches. This distracts people from their personal prayer and conversations with Jesus Deny Jesus the time to call children to religious life. Performed liturgical dances around the altar in exciting clothes, theaters and concerts.
13 In the Gospel reading omit the word “holy”, for example, instead of “the Gospel according to St. John,” simply say: “Gospel according to John.” This will remind people not to venerate them anymore. Continuously write new bibles so that they are identical to those Protestants. Omit the word “Holy” in the “Holy Spirit”. This will pave the way. Emphasize the feminine nature of God as a mother full of tenderness. Eliminate the use of the term “Father.”
19 Burn all catechisms. Tell teachers of religion to teach to love God’s creatures instead of God Himself (this will violate the 1st Commandment) . Open love is testimony of maturity. Let the term “sex” become a household word in your daily religion classes. Make sex a new religion. Introduce images of sex in religious lessons in order to teach children reality. Make sure that the images are clear. Encourage schools to become progressive thinkers in the field of sex education. Introduce sex education through the Bishop’s authority so parents will have nothing against it.”
…So to those who believe all this “upla-la” your are on the right path….to perdition. You are bound by a rope, like a sheep to the slaughter.
Josie, I am going to be very truthful here. Many, both younger and older, leave the Church because they cannot abide by the “hard sayings” of the Lord Jesus Christ. I have seen it over and over again. Just as some of Christ’s disciples could not abide his “hard saying” about his Body and Blood and so left him, many still cannot abide it along with other such hard saying as no divorce and remarriage, no contraceptives, even though they know they are harmful to the body and society and often to future children. I have seen Protestant churches used as hunting grounds for ex Catholics to find a new wife or husband, etc. I am sure you know all this.
“…that told them about Jesus.”
I am suspicious of that line.
Then, you should investigate it. Get out your magnifying glass and your Sherlock Holmes kit, and have at it.
Skai you are coming off prideful… I am sorry but you have lost me on this thread…I still respect you and appreciate your past devotion to defend the faith but thread, I am puzzled. It is not sounding like you…are you OK? I’ll keep you in my prayers.
Too bad the mainline Catholic Church is rushing headlong toward Protestantism. The Catholic N.O. liturgy is simply awful, and theologically suspect, even if politically accepted for the time being by the Church. In fact, the post-Vatican II crowd has done all it can to eliminate the “specialness” of the Catholic Faith, virtually re-writing everything about the sacraments, ordination, the calendar, and all that, and, of course, the Mass itself. But, the Holy Ghost is in charge, so it will all come out right in the end. Good to have all come home to the Catholic Church, however. This is the true and only ecumenism.
Catholics have to have both the Bread of Life and the Word of God. Many Catholics have the Bread of Life but are not being fed the Word of God … so they go looking for it. Many Protestant churches put forth a great deal of the Word of God. Hey, if your bishop is starving you to death, do you intend to just go with the flow and die?
If Catholics really have the Bread of Life and understand it, Jesus and Mary will ensure they get the word at mass which they already do. Sharon Bourassa
A very encouraging article for me to read! We have raised six children in the Catholic Faith and only one of them is a practicing Catholic. With this new rise of “Evangelical Catholicism” that our pope has called for, and a return to a “simpler but truly orthodox faith, I believe many who have left the fold of the Great Tradition will return to find safety and substantial food for the journey. Praised be Jesus Christ!
Dear Skai, I have news for you. The Holy Bible came from the Catholic Chruch. It was the Catholic Church that gave us the first Bible when it was compiled in 397 in Carthage, North Africa. It is the Catholic Church that is in possession of the first manuscripts. You’ll find these manuscripts at the Vatican. Now, will you give thanks to the Holy Catholic Church for giving us the Holy Bible? God bless you.
Amen! again, Philip Saenz.
Saenz, duh.
What is needed is for the older priests and bishops to retire. Older Catholics remember how it was prior to and just after VII – a lot of people left after all the changes occurred (some of them were not what VII even mentioned). Whatever one thinks about VII, the fact remains that there are many who left, there are many who became Catholic and left because it wasn’t “as advertised” and they saw the same thing in their Protestant church.
Banal continued, Anonymous. You simply prove incapable of any perspective other than what is called the “cyclops way of seeing things”. Don’t you even care?
SKAI, your replies seem to indicate that your always right and no one else is entitled to their opinion. It’s very possible other individuals see more than you are aware of and understand more than you do. I would suggest you tone it down a bit.
John, sad to learn that that’s the best you can do. Try harder; maybe it will come to you.
Skai, I do not have to try harder as I use common sense in my thoughts. You may wish to review my comment again and think about it as your reply does not seem to fit the statement.
John, from Catholic Encyclopedia: “Man is rational in the sense that he is a being who arrives at conclusions from premises. Our intellectual life is a process, a voyage of discovery; our knowledge is not a static ready-made whole; it is rather an organism instinct with life and growth. Each new conclusion becomes the basis of further inference.” So, this side of the Beatific Vision, the way we ascertain fact and truth is through the use of reason.
Skai, so what’s your point. Why don’t you explain your point in good, understandable English. The above is a viewpoint and nothing more and to many means nothing. In fact, and to quote a famous phrase” What is truth”.
No, not at all, Anonymous. You’re defying Pope Francis and Pope Emeritus Benedict, who both say that bishops should become holy and practice what they preach. Why are you trying to lead the Church astray with your lazy uncharitable escapism?
To Skai,
The bible is a catholic book ! It was the CC that chose what books would be in the Bible. If you would take the time to find out what the CC actually teaches you would find out it is the most bible based of all the churches.
Amen! thorn.
thorn, you should try to come to terms with the fact that “Catholic” has at least two meanings. Use the other one to interpret my post.
Skai why do we have to interpret your comments…….why can’t they just be simple…. : )
Language has different levels; we interpret according to our particular data set and life experience. It gets better though, when we pay attention to the lessons taught by St Paul. It gets worse when we take someone’s words for the reality they point to. Then again there is the well known “The medium is the message” idea by Catholic Marshal McCluhan. Example: “Water is wet”. One has to define water, because there are various meanings of it, depending on context. Understanding is not so simple, not even of the simplest thing: Why? Because the simplest thing is not all that simple. Does a photon have mass? I have to deal with people who wonder about such things … Theology and religion are even more difficult than hard and speculative sciences. Jesus is not the lowest common denominator, nor is He simple. So, why should we cow tow to those who demand that we deform truth into something they are happy with? Why not rather insist that they strain their brains a bit in an effort to seek truth. Jesus is not only God but He is flesh and blood … Thus, the least of His people have no excuse to adopt some partial or deformed fact or truth and rest with it. Never give in to the world.
I keep meaning to read Marshall McLuan, Skai. I heard an interview with his son and he was so much more interesting than I ever realized. I did learn from McLuan that I was always getting into trouble because I was a hot person whereas Nixon, eg. was a cool person and people could interpret what he said according to how they wanted, whereas a hot person is too blunt and doesn’t leave room for interpretation. Right? I think I came across that in a magazine eons ago but I never forgot it…maybe cuz I never knew it?
Skai yes what you say makes sense but St. Paul did say to reach them at their level right? Sometimes we have to be careful not to cause confusion also because of misunderstandings. Take a look at Bishop Fulton Sheen, he was known as the great communicator. Even Billy Graham called him that. He explained things so well that they were conveyed well. I enjoy doing the research on him.
But we also have the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas. That was hard to read for me but when I found other books that helped me understand it, it was better but I must say that it was a challenge and I did enjoy the original and unabridged books because those were the writings of a wonderful saint. I am a romantic so his writings were passionate to me. Also St. Augustine’s.
The real question for you Skai..is who do you want to model after from these holy men? Of course Jesus being the ONE as the beginning but we also look to the saints and in Fulton Sheen’s case, we also look for those who are holy from our faith and not saint yet or whatever our Lord wills, we accept…but we can learn from them. You do have your own style…and that is a gift too. : ) Fulton sheen not only got people to think but he also conveyed well and challenged them to be better in Christ. Just something to think about.
More briefly, to read is to interpret. Interpreting what one is reading cannot be avoided, as it is part of the process, intrinsic to the act of reading.
Because reply #3: Because we are using written language and not spoken language; the rules for clarity are different. If we continually allow our blogging to be narrowed down to some framework mimicking spoken language, then confusion will rise. Another reason is that more and more bloggers are joining the fray and making it obvious that they have a great deal of writing and reasoning discipline to work on. Some of these are almost impervious to the realization that their world views are not necessarily commonly held. Any reflection by anyone would bring to mind the wonder why philosophers and poets use thousands of pages to present their views, instead of a few winks and nods.
Thorn, you created a strawman argument instead of engaging what I blogged, but you insinuated that your strawman is my blog. Why don’t you consider that the word Church can mean an idea and also that it can mean individuals of a group. For your penance, go and read all the works of Blessed John Paul II. Read them over and over and over until you eventually get it. He is called “The Great” for a reason, and so far it is a reason you have no hint of.
“one holy catholic and apostolic church, which includes all the baptized. The Bible is for all souls in all times, not for slothful and fearful circle the wagons catholics to horde in some dank cellar where they never read it.
Skai but not everyone is in your level of understanding and not everyone can reach that level….a sign of humility is to understand that as well. You view things differently but it still directs one to the truth, that I see in you but sometimes some of your comments can be abstract and can lead thoughts to wonder off to a huh?
Well at least you don’t get mad if one can not agree with how you wanted to convey the truth…they may have a different way to convey but still leading to the truth…all leading to the right and same path in truth. That is the goal. Skai but keep humility at the top, reflecting that we can’t always be right and only trusting in our Lord as He leads. God bless you my brother and friend in Christ. : )
Interesting article. Hope the trend continues, but the reported increase of young people into the Catholic Church is anecdotal……the actual numbers of young people belonging to ANY kind of Church in the US is plummeting to record lows; this date from the Pew Center for Religion, which surveys households nationwide every year.
“James in Colorado”: The notion of an “Evangelical Catholicism” is an oxymoron. Christ gave the great commission to his disciples, and to all of us by extension. Being a Catholic means you are called on to be “evangelical”. Instead, what is meant by this is kind of like what happened in China some decades ago. When nothing was working there: the economy, education, military, nothing; the only way to call attention away from that nation’s failed political fantasy was to start something like the “Great Leap Forward” and things like that. Disrupt normality in the name of “really concentrating” on Mao’s Little Red Book lead to massive social, economic, and political disruption, and generations of personal misery. Many many in the Catholic Church hierarchy of today simply do not like the Church, its Traditions, beliefs, and the like. Most importantly, they despise the movement back toward the Church’s basic mission, of salvation and of liturgies and the like that achieve that divine goal. It is unclear what the Pope is after by his statement, but one thing is clear: the old, tired liberals are jumping for joy over the concept of an “Evangelical” Catholicism, which promises the same sort of hootenanny mentality that has driven many out of the Church in the past. There are already calls for masses with literally no content, with priests free to make things up “as the Spirit” moves them. Unfortunately, Francis has is playing directly into their belief system by virtually eliminating any Latin in his liturgies and the like. And, wouldn’t you know it, now there are calls by leading “liberal” bishops to “outlaw” kneeling, genuflecting, the TLM, the use of Latin, the “new Missal” and all the rest of the modest movement back toward Tradition. This is all done, apparently, in the name of achieving “uniformity” and achieving a sense of “greater community”. Pictures of happy peasant farmers all holding up Mao’s Little Red Book come to mind.
Christopher, when I first heard that phrase, “Evangelical Catholicism” I thought the exact same thing. I first heard this phrase through an interview with George Weigel about his book named “Evangelical Catholicism: Deep Reform in the 21st Century Church.”
This is the guy who went around explaining what the Catholic principle of just war is so Catholics would support George Bush’s war in Iraq… which of course was not based upon a honest pretenses. In this interview I heard, he explains that what he means is not the debasement of the Catholic Faith with Protestant traditions (my words, not his), but that we take the charge in evangelizing the world as Christ commanded. Although,… the phrase has a way of conjuring up images of Pentecostal/Assemblies of God worship services. The explanation of the phrase he uses for the book is further obscured when he talks of the charismatic Catholic movement in relation to this ‘new reform.’ Based on the interview and not the book, I do not agree with him… but again, I haven’t read the book.
I believe that “Evangelical Catholicism” is a perfect fit to be used as an umbrella phrase to carry out every sort of un-Catholic, un-Christian doctrines and traditions that we have seen in Protestant “ecclesiastical communities.” A reform would be the wide-spread re-emergence of traditional Catholicism, as St. Paul commanded us: to hold fast to the traditions … whether by written epistle or word of mouth.
code, you’re attempting to polarize by means of sentiment. Try reasoning out each of your points.
codephined,
More recently, much more recently, at Akita Our Blessed Mother called for staying with Tradition!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
They never taught me about Our Lady of Akita when I was in school. I never heard one priest or nun ever say a word about her. I know several people who went to Medjugore but only ever hear about Our Lady of Akita from people here.
You brought up some pretty profound thoughts, St.Christopher. Your critical thinking processes of seeing obscure but corelating thoughts and their broader implications are most thought provoking! I don’t know if this relates or not but for some reason what you wrote triggered this thought…I went to a faith conference that was sponsored by a very well known Catholic convert and several things really bothered me about it. Though I’d only been a convert for about a year, I didn’t feel comfortable with the strong protestant/evangelical flavor that tainted everything. I felt like I was at a megachurch and though all the speakers were very famous voices in the Church, the undercurrent was predominantly evangelical. Also, the music bothered me tremendously…it was all hard rock so-called Christian, or in this case I suppose, Catholic music, and I really disliked it immensely. It wasn’t reverent or spiritual, and many of the attendees were from 40 to elderly. I couldn’t put my finger on it until I’d read your post. I don’t see the connection to what you wrote, but that memory came back so strongly! Maybe it’s just seeing how protestantism is creeping into the Catholic Church through seemingly spiritual retreats like this? I don’t know. I do know that I felt bad for having such a negative feeling for something that was supposed to be so great.
New Hope “church” has been popping up all over Hawaii. They now are looking into building their “Promised Land” over Agricultural Lands which will include a school and of course their mega church. This is land that our State needs to feed the people. In the short time that New Hope has been in existence, one wonders “where does all they money come from” or is this church money driven?
But in reading this article, I am sooooo very happy that those have gone astray are coming back to the Catholic Church. Our prayers are being answered!
That is strange, 96706. Is there any way you can find out the New Hope church’s financial background? I think it has to be available to public view as it has tax exempt status? Sounds like a cover for something else…like when it goes under, will it be made into a resort? I remember Michener’s book Hawaii, and how greedy those missionaries were in the 19th cent. But it wasn’t til I became Catholic and I saw how they viciously attacked Fr.Damien (whom I named my son after) that I saw how really mean they were. He didn’t hold it against them, however, so neither should I. They should have zoning laws where you are to protect agricultural land. I’m sorry to hear that. Where I live all the farmland is being converted into one acre housing blights…I mean sites.
Jesus said: “I am the bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread and drinks this blood will have Eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day”. What the Lord is referring to is the Eucharist – the bread of life where He is truly present – body, blood, soul and divinity. Only the Catholic Church can explain this mystery; it’s the thrice Holy God’s way of reaching us; a profound measure of His enormous Love for us. Satan succeeds in deceiving so many because he does not want people to receive this bread of life. Amen.
Amen, Napiliko! I am so glad you’re not deceived. May more eyes be opened. We must pray for the lost to find ‘The Way’ and the conversion of sinners.
You are leaving out the Orthodox Churches that have the same reverence of Christ in the Eucharist as the center of the Mass only their Liturgy has never changed. Their Liturgy is much richer. I just went to my first Latin Mass since Vatican II and it is a world of difference. Much deeper than the current Catholic Lite we have now.
Skai, the bible came from the Roman Catholic Church. The canonists, guided by the Holy Spirit decided which of the hundreds of writings were truly the word of God. And guess who the canonists were, they were Roman Catholic Bishops (4th century). There were no Protestants around until the 1500’s. God Bless you on your journey to the one church founded by Christ.
Try re-reading my post while using the definition of Church as a group of individuals, and see what you come up with.
Skai Guys is correct!
It depends on how you interpret “Church”. If you interpret it as an idea, then he is correct. If you interpret it as all the members of the Mystical Body of Christ, then he is not correct, because some resist, defy and mock the Bible. The Bible thumpers have done a great deal to promote the Bible, thus moving it into the awareness of many Catholics who otherwise would enjoy not knowing much about it. Remember that Protestantism can be interpreted as an idea or as individual people. The idea is heretical; the individual people may or may not be heretics … depends on what they know and what they have been taught … same with Catholics. PA certainly does not believe the Bible, which is one example. But there are Protestants who believed the Bible to the point that they became Catholic because of it, Scott Hahn is one example among countless.
Well, let me correct one thing. No member of the Mystical Body of Christ would mock the Bible, although they might defy it in some way out of ignorance.
There were many heretics prior to the Protestant revolution. St Augustine in the 4th century describes at length the major errors in thought and belief, errors which run rampant yet today. The Bible was written because people wanted to read it … ie, there was a demand for the Bible. The Catholic bishops may have been so frozen in form that they missed the heart of the invention of the printing press. Somehow bishops as a group go on these century long benders and it costs countless souls and great misery in the Church and the world. This is one more reason to believe the Saints who said the skulls of bishops pave the streets of Hell. Jesus tells us that even one grain of salt can save the recipe … one holy bishop can save the Church from the unholy bishops. I think we’re seeing this happen today on an historical level. Even Pope Francis said the curia is laced with corrupt gay men; he also just announced from Brazil that he wants the youth to churn up the Church and set it straight. Pope Francis wants to renew the Church. The information in the Bible would have a great effect if only Catholics learned it. The difference between the Bible and the CCC2ndEd can be seen: The Bible is the Good Shepherd, and the CCC is the pack of sheepdogs. If you wander too far from the Good Shepherd, then His sheepdogs run around and when and if they find you, they try to bring you back into the fold.
Guy, I was confirmed in the Catholic Church in 1979 by Bishop Shubsda of Los Angeles.
I bet those returning to the Catholic Faith are most likely in the Dioceses that are still reverent with Tradition. That is what brings the youth back, they are staving for His Light in these dark times.
Those returning to the Catholic faith are individuals. There is no way to determine, to speculate accurately, whether one or another form attracts them. Jesus can be almost absent in a Traditional diocese … Otherwise how did Vatican II happen?
Don’t go to the Church, the Holy Catholic Church, that Jesus founded and then endowed it with the charisms of infallibility and indefectibility. Heck, just go to Skai; he knows everything.
Saenz, ask and you shall receive. Knock and it shall be opened … which is why I’m knocking on your head.
Skai why are you challenging Philip? He sounds faithful…I don’t get it.
Abeca, I don’t get it either, but it sounds interesting, as the developing thread proves.
For my fellow Catholics that are new converts, and for those Catholics that might have forgotten: We all know that Jesus our Lord founded a church. What kind? Jesus’ church is endowed with the charisms of infallibility and indefectibility ONLY IN FAITH AND MORALS, the two ingredients that are necessary for salvation. Be careful, I said ONLY IN FAITH AND MORAL. Not only faith tells us this, but also common sense. Why would Jesus found a church that is defective and contradictory, “teaching every wind of doctrine”? Jesus wouldn’t because he loves us too much to lead us astray. May God bless us all.
Dear Napiliko, the Catholic Church does not “explain the mystery” of the Holy Eucharist. However, we believe because of faith. The Holy Eucharist remains a mystery; a mystery cannot be explained. However, if God can change bread into human beings, why can’t He change bread into His body? For me, it is much easier to believe since I have experienced many things in the supernatural. MANY! All were connected to the Holy Catholic Church. God bless you.
Dear Philip, what I’m referring to about this “mystery” is the process by which God transforms bread into the body and blood of Christ; the Catholic Church calls this transubstantiation; it’s a doctrine of the Church; we as true Catholics do not merely “believe because of faith”; we accept this process (transubstantiation) as true because God is TRUTH. God Bless.
What to ask a person who is giving you a hard time about your religion of the Holy Catholic Church: Ask him if his church was endowed with the charisms of infallibility and indefectibility. When he answers NO, then ask him why you should listen to any of his argument. Who needs errors, since errors can lead you to hell?
What to tell an atheist who is giving you a hard time: Ask him this question: What is easier to believe, that matter without intelligence is eternal, or that God with intelligence is eternal? Only one can be correct. Then ask him, since he doesn’t believe in God, to prove that matter is eternal, and that it can plan to create, for example, a complex man and a complex woman to complement a man. Ask him to prove that matter knew how to create a man and woman in such a way that they could reproduce. Then watch him turn into knots.
And do not forget to be humble as humble gets when you hold forth your claim, Saenz. You may be presenting the red carpet or the cold spell to your neighbor.
Skai what is it that Philip said that wasn’t good? Correct me if I’m wrong but I saw nothing prideful about his comments, he has pride in His faith, which is good, not the wicked pride that we see often…maybe I missed something.
The key to access is missing. My hypothesis is that this key is humility. For example, if trying to convey the Gospel to someone such as David Hawking, would you kill all his followers and then present him with the points made by Saenz? If not, then how would you do it?
I’ve seen this article shared a couple of times…you can you make this claim: “Young Christians are going over to Catholicism and high Anglicanism/Lutheranism in droves…” and give absolutely no statistical evidence of this in the remainder of the article? Can someone give some deeper insight or post a link with evidence to support the above statement? Every statistic I’ve seen says the opposite of what’s state in this article. Namely, that younger “Christians” are either leaving the church or pursuing ultra-contemporary or missional churches. Thanks for any response that includes statistical evidence.
This is a most interesting article…cause for reflection…Anglican’s are heretical as are Lutherans…just sayin…
Dear Skai, don’t worry about my humility. Thank you. I led an army in Central America not so many years ago, and went against a huge satanic cult numbering in the thousands. We destroyed about 6,000 thugs who were kidnapping little children everyday, and doing what satanic thugs do to children. After the thugs finished with them, they would sacrifice them, drink their blood, and chew on their hearts. There were hundreds of miracles that would blow your mind. My lack of humility had nothing to do with it. This is something that God gave us as a gift. My state of mind had nothing to do with it. Thank you.
Philip, “nothing to do with humility”, your “state of mind had nothing to do with it”? Humility is simply being honest. The Centurion whom Jesus extolled for his exemplary faith would also exemplify humility. I’m looking for a way to convey Christ without killing those who do not believe in Him: Your Gospel challenge is perfect in so far as it goes; what is missing is perhaps not you but the back up, namely the holy bishops to engage the heart rather than to challenge the heart. Also, can you say where an account of this battle can be found? Sounds interesting.
The reason I nit pick is because it is a form of formal argument. It serves to sharpen one’s ability to precisely convey what one intends to convey. Lack of precision can easily lose a battle or a soul. Those who are lazy with their words are perhaps also not so caring about souls as they ought to be.
If people truly want to understand Catholicism, its foundation, and history, and want to debate, go to Catholic Answers Forum, and scroll down to the Non-Catholic forum. Many consider it the best religious forum in the world, covering many topics, including Sacred Scripture, the Liturgy and Sacraments, faith and morals, etc.
By 100 AD, the Church, through many people, discerned through the Holy Spirit which books to use for public worship; the Gospel of St. John, and book of Hebrews took more time in terms of authenticity and revelation. So, the Church essentially drew the books of Scripture, had a consistent form of liturgy in message, spirit, and tone that we witness today, the episcopal form of church governance, and the Creed.
I was on a virulently anti-Catholic site and when I wrote out the description of the Mass by St. Justin the Martyr around 154 AD, it was deleted by moderator.
When I was in my twenties, Kathleen, I bought the debate of Justin Martyr with Trypho the Jew from the classic book club, which was not even Catholic, but it helped lead me to the Catholic Church, especially his description of the Mass and the Blessed Sacrament. One time many years later a Jehovah’s Witness came to the door and handed me one of their newspapers. They used to give them out at times free, but now they charge for them. When I read it, they had completely misquoted St. Justin Martyr, even according to the secular Classic Book Club book I had with his debate. It is not called a “debate” in the title, but my daughter has the book now, so I am not sure of the exact title.