The following comes from a Nov. 7 posting by Austin Ruse in Crisis magazine.
Brian Camenker is a rabble-rouser from Massachusetts who founded something contentiously called MassResistance, a state-based pro-family group that takes perhaps the most aggressive stance in the country against the homosexual agenda.
In a recent column published on his website, Camenker offers no quarter to the national pro-family groups that he says have botched the fight against same-sex “marriage.” In fact, he says “the pro-family movement helped spread ‘gay marriage’ across America.”
Camenker is especially annoyed at the legal case put on by marriage defenders in the Prop 8 and DOMA cases. Camenker describes the well-funded and well-planned assault by LGBT activists. including skilled attorneys, shrewd judge shopping, emotionally compelling legal arguments, a media juggernaut, training judges, and psychological manipulation. Even so, he says this could have been overcome except for “the terrible incompetence of the lawyers on our side.”
He says our lawyers put on weak defenses, with hardly any witnesses and used arguments that tended to go no further than “this is not about homosexuality but that children need both a mother and a father.” He says these “soft arguments” would have no effect, and they didn’t.
Besides soft arguments, most people don’t know that the lead witness for our side in the Prop 8 trial — David Blankenhorn of the Institute for American Values — actually said on the stand that America would be better on the day after we allowed for gay marriage. This was our witness.
No surprise not long after that Blankenhorn formally joined the movement for homosexual “marriage.” As he went out the door he said he was leaving because our side was mean — this after we adopted his softer messaging strategy.
Not enough people on our side know that the lead attorney in the Prop 8 case, Charles Cooper, was not on our side either. He was at that moment helping to plan the wedding of his stepdaughter to another woman. Sure, your lawyer does not need to know that you are guilty of murder, but in a case like this, he at least needs to agree with the arguments. Cooper didn’t and it showed abundantly.
Camenker traces these legal arguments to what he sees as the surrender of the mainstream pro-family movement, led by people like Blankenhorn, to certain assumptions of the LGBT movement including tolerance of homosexual behavior, believing that homosexuality is not immoral but natural, that loving homosexual couples are a legitimate part of society, allowing for gay civil unions, and much else.
He points to two heroes of the marriage movement and mistakes he says they’ve made. Brian Brown of the National Organization for Marriage went into the home of the odious Dan Savage, in the presence of Savage’s gay lover, over glasses of wine debated same-sex “marriage.” I have watched that film and I think Brown did a terrific job. Camenker says it was a huge mistake.
He also criticizes Maggie Gallagher, someone I have praised regularly, because she went to the Boston College law school and said, “It’s possible that gay couples could on average be much better parents than opposite-sex couples because they don’t have children as a result of sexual passion.” She prefaced that by saying it was reasonable to conclude that having gay parents was better than being in an orphanage or foster care.
He says the theme of the 2014 March for Marriage was “tolerance and that we’re ‘not haters.’” Camenker knows of no national pro-family group conference that has included speakers on “homosexual medical issues or the homosexual agenda in schools.”
And these are the nub of the issue for Camenker. Those two issues—the medical reality of homosexual behavior and what happens in schools—are the issues most national groups shy away from and are the ones Camenker believes are most effective.
The thing to know about Camenker is that he was radicalized on this issue because of what happened in the Massachusetts school system. In 1992 his neighbor showed him a teaching guide from the public school that depicted information about gross homosexual behavior. This was foisted upon kids without warning or parental approval. Camenker tried to get a bill passed by the legislature that would require teachers to inform parents when such subjects were to be taught and allow parents to remove their children. Camenker says the final bill was gutted.
In a quite remarkable documentary about what happened in Massachusetts after same-sex “marriage” was judicially imposed on that state, Camenker describes how rapidly the homosexual ethos was forced even upon kindergartners.
Though very rough and poorly made, the film makes the strong case that once same-sex “marriage” is allowed, certain things inexorably follow, things that are impossible to resist. The film was shown recently on national television in Finland and is credited with stopping their Parliament from allowing same-sex “marriage.” I recently invited Camenker to show the film at a conference for UN diplomats and the result was electric. When he showed a picture of two brothers, no more than boys, with one of them dressed as a girl, jaws dropped all over the room.
Besides what happens in schools, Camenker says the medical evidence about homosexuality is very powerful but left unused by the national groups. In fact, even after years of safe sex education recent data from the Center for Disease Control shows homosexual activity is profoundly dangerous. The infection rate for HIV continues to rise and is due almost exclusively to the homosexual community. So vast and interconnected are the health risks associated with gay sex—disease, drug/alcohol abuse, neuroses, violence—that researcher Dale O’Leary says the medical community refers to it not as an epidemic or even a pandemic, but something most of us have never even heard of—a syndemic.
Camenker believes the mother and father arguments don’t convince anyone and the reliance on them demonstrates that pro-family leaders have fallen for human respect. He also believes the studies showing the importance of moms and dads are mostly ineffective, too. After all, we trot out a new study, and the other side trots out two more. And look what happened to Mark Regnerus and his study. He has been professionally and personally crucified.
I am not a legal expert and therefore cannot comment on whether these arguments would have been allowed in a court of law. They certainly would have advanced the claim of the other side that it is “animus” that compels our opposition. But, we got that anyway.
Where I think Camenker is right but perhaps too late is in the court of public opinion. Everyone should read Robert Oscar Lopez on the dangers of sodomy. Everyone should read ex-gays and what happened to them in the gay subculture. It is all so horrific and anyone reading such things would feel great revulsion and understand that we cannot accept gay relationships let alone same-sex “marriage.”
I applauded some years ago when Maggie Gallagher and others came up with the new messaging about how this is not about homosexuality but what children need, more than anything a mother and father, something two men or two women cannot provide. It seemed brilliant to me then. But, this alone has not convinced, and the result is we have left behind other—perhaps more unpleasant—but possibly more effective arguments.
To read the original story, click here.
To view the video shown to the UN diplomats, click here.
The pro-family movement was caught unprepared and flat-footed. Camenker was more correct than not in saying that the litigation needed to go to the issue of the awfulness of homosexual sex and its subcultre. These people, who profess normailty, are not. Their sexual practices, being unnatural, lead to horrendous medical issues. Homosexual “society”, if permitted to conjoin mainstream society, will pervert social norms and expectations. All these arguments have nothing to do with religion.
Why can’t a society set limits on what it believes is in the best interests of its citizens. Bestiality, polygamy, adult incest, age of consent/child sex, all of these things are within the right of sociey to control or to prohibit.
What has happened is that sodomites have turned the courts into a “prove it” session. There is nothing historically accepted, or acceptable, about homosexual sex, child-rearing, or marriage. A society can recognize the fact of homosexuality, and take steps to deal with its complete perversion and outcomes.
Timing, of course, is not good for the pro-normalcy crowd; popular belief has largely been turned and it will be difficult to reverse course. And, of course, let’s hear it for our bishops, and now the Vatican, that now want ot create a new “pastoral” approach to sinful behavior, demanding that all welcome it and its “gifts”.
Good luck Mr. Camenker. Good Catholics should all be part of your efforts. Instead, you will get Cardinal “Chuckles-Bravo” type responses increasingly from the Church, and from its members. Time to pray like never before to the Holy Ghost.
I submitted an Amicus (friend of the Court) Legal Brief in both the CA Supreme and now former judge Walker’s Federal Prop-8 cases, and sat in the front row of the court gallery during Examination / Cross Exam of Blankenhorn.
To call the proceedings ‘Circus Like’ would be to insult the professionalism of carnival workers, although Walker certainly seemed to enjoy playing ringmaster.
Few people realize the level of ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’ going on in the Court and Media that surrounded the case, particularly given that Governor ‘Der Arnold’ was being Blackmailed (over his allegedly ‘secret’ Extra Son, amongst other items)…
– by the same Gaystapo thought Police; who made sure the bought and paid for ‘free press’ stayed away from the subject of Walkers own huge Personal Conflict of Interest.
Questions regarding Manipulation of both Judges Assigned (few realize how Powerful & Partisan the Court Legal Clerks can be) – and decisions denying status to those who would best Defend the Constitution of the State – including their own high quality witnesses and empirical evidence never allowed in the Walker case – remain open to this day.
Truly – those who enjoy sausage or respect the ‘law’ – should never watch either being made – particularly in ‘our’ Turkey Baster Creationist ‘justice’ system.
I think your use of terms such as Gaystapo and Turkey Baster Creationist very much weaken your witness. Please just tell what happened factually.
Anonymous, you don’t think appeals to bestiality weaken his witness? Appeals to adult/child sex? or his later post’s references to “der arnold” as though The Governor’s Austrian routes makes him fodder for Nazi references? or his outrageous accusations that the appellate judicial assignignments were rigged? Maybe you do, and chose to pick your battles. But this McDermott throws wild pitches, and they all need to get caught, so the gay friendly San Francisco Giants win the World Series.
YFC, I was referring to his witness as a person in the courtroom. He told nothing of what actually happened.
“your use of terms such as Gaystapo and Turkey Baster Creationist…”
Actually I see such as ‘Terms of Art’ (A word or phrase that has special meaning in a particular context.) – necessary to insightful understanding of social phenomenon – like the Annual Tax Subsidized Anti-Male Hate Riot = the SF Dyke March.
Turkey Baster Creationists include those who mock certain individuals who take various forms of a Biblical ‘Creationist’ view of the universe & humans – which is supposed to render them incapable of valid reasoning regarding human Existence and Creation itself, as it is allegedly ‘Anti-Scientific’ –
For TBCs – Although the Church clearly acknowledges that the Bible is Not a Science Textbook, the ‘magic’ story of Creation found in Genesis is too metaphorical for them – and pre-supposes the Existence of God, so they don’t like it and retaliate against those who disagree.
Yet these Same double-think / talk ‘Turkey Baster Creationists’ are the ones who say a child can have two or more same sex parents, and usually relegate the role of Father – to a genderless ‘Donor’ with a Non-Existant legal / financial status…
– and who beyond retroactively changing Gender on Birth Certificates as a tool to enforce mandatory pandering, in CA have rewritten the UFC (Uniform Family Code) provisions for who qualifies as a “Presumptive Father” to include Dykes – although All Procreation is Heterosexual.
GILBERT GAYSTAPO?
The term ‘Femi-Nazi’ was originally coined in the pathetic farce of Academentia – where the Twysted Sisterhood of ‘Radical Gender Feminists’ (See “Who Stole Feminism” by Christina Hoff Sommers) regularly staged outraged rampages of Misandrist Tantrum Theater…
– Such as annual campus productions of eve ensler’s ‘Ragonya Diatribes’ – celebrating “Good Rape” – of young Girls by older Dykes…
– The better to secure their place wallowing at the front of the tax subsidized tenure trough – and of course feed their need for BAMN BAMN = To Bash Men, By Any Means Necessary – Censoring any dissent / questioning.
The term became imbedded in the national vocabulary after certain ‘media personalities’ began using it on air – striking a sharp chord amongst those who had encountered the phenomenon by succinctly summing up the true nature of the beast.
While proving such a definitive term for Misandrist Womyn (Hateful to Men & Boys, Masculinity & Normal Heterosexuality) as to be instantly understood when first heard – it failed to do ‘justice’ to the true diversity of the ‘Happy’ GILBERT? Gang.
Their War against the ‘Linear Straight & Narrow’ types proved so eerily similar to pogroms by party founder / leader Ernst Rohm’s Homo-Nazi Terrorist Storm Troopers, that a More Inclusive Term was needed.
Thus Townhall Columnist Mike Adams and Huffpoo’s Johann Hari popularized the more Diversity Inclusive ‘Gaystapo’
SEE
The Strange, Strange Story of Gay Fascists.- by Johann Hari.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-strange-strange-story_b_136697.html
The lost boys of Afghanistan by: JOEL BRINKLEY.
https://www.startribune.com/opinion/101505674.html
Actually Michael,
You know as well as I do that your ‘Terms of Art” is simply your pathetic attempt to justify hurling a barrage of ad hominems at a group that you hate.
The ad hominems also provide cover for the plethora of logical fallacies that you use in your arguments. I hope you didn’t use such poor reasoning in your amicus brief, or else you only succeeded in embarrassing yourself.
The traditionalist side is has been losing due to bad arguments. For example, the health risks caused by homosexuality is not a pertinent argument for allowing gay marriage. Instead, its a relevant argument for overtturning Lawrence v. Texas.
To show you how stupid this argument is relative to gay marriage, are the STD’s spread by heterosexual sex a reason to ban heterosexual marriage? The whole idea is silly, especially since gay people who do not have multiple sex partners will not spread STD’s. Since gay marriage presumably includes a promise not to have sex with other people, it’s hard to argue that gay marriage will make public health worse.
Pretty much the only argument here is that gay marriage will make homosexuality more socially acceptable such that more closeted gays might enter relationships.Yet that cat is mostly out of the social bag except among fundamentalists—and I don’t think that legal gay marriage will change anything with respect to that social group.
A “Zero Sum Game” in which One Side Must have All Power to be ‘equal’, is little different than my slogan of: Pander or Perish = the ‘gospel’ of the Gaystapo
SEE
Rick Santorum: We’re losing on gay ‘marriage’ because the Church has been silenced
Former senator and presidential contender Rick Santorum has a theory about why supporters of true marriage are losing ground in the fight against marital redefinition – increasingly, they’re being banned from the debate entirely.
“The arguments are being won among young people,” Santorum, a Republican, told Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council in a recent interview.
“We are losing in this particular area among young people not because we’re out there and competing, it’s because they have effectively silenced the church on a lot of those issues and young people don’t even know what the opposing view is on these issues.”
“I really believe in this subject matter at hand with the gay community that a Judeo-Christian worldview cannot survive with a worldview that is as rabidly secular as this movement is,” Santorum continued.
“One is going to battle the other and I can tell you that the statists, these secular statists, do not want the competition that comes from the church and so they are going to do everything they can to marginalize them, to force them out of the public square to be quiet.”
“They’re going to use, as they have, the Johnson amendment, try to use the IRS and the tax code to do so, they’re going to use every lever of power the government has to keep this competition of ideas silent so they can win the argument,” he added.
The reason why “Pro-Family” groups have lost the debate over marriage equality is simple: Most people have friends, family members, and co-workers who are Gay, and they simply tend to be much more accepting and supportive. 30 years ago most people were not aware of anyone close to them who were Gay. Today most ARE. It’s not that the number of Gay people has increased, it’s just that most Gay people today are living their lives openly, productively, and with humility and integrity. It also goes without saying that social networking sites like Facebook have made the proverbial “closet” pretty much obsolete.
If ALL Gay people were the disease-ridden sexual predators you like to portray us as, do you really think we would have so many Straight friends?
Chuck, I have found that most or many “straight” friends who approve of homosexual activity or “marriages” are not living very chaste lives themselves. They know they have serious sexual sins of their own, so they have no moral ground on which to correct others until they repent and change themselves. I have seen it over and over again, even in my own and families close to me. Some people have had as many as four “marriages”, and are not with their first wife, so how can they tell others something is wrong without changing their own lives first. Serious sinners seem to “feed” on one another, meaning they want approval for what they are doing, so they give approval to the serious sins of others, so it makes their sins look good. This is not always the case as some approve out of naivety as to the dangers of such behavior and/or misguided compassion.
By the way, that is what I think the Lord Jesus Christ meant when he said, “Take the log our of your own eye, then you will see clearly to take the splinter out of your brother’s eye.” It not that we should not correct others, but that we should not be doing similar serious sins when we correct someone else.
Well said, Anne T. The contraceptive mentality – to include what folks refer to as a creative or diverse sex life even within marriage – has given way to “If we have sex just for fun, why not everyone?”
Good Point Ann-T
Because of the high population of Homo-Anal Coprophiles in the so called ‘Hospitality’ industry (Hotels, Resorts…) they have been able to ‘network’ with the Gaystapo HQ (like Larry Brinkin’s ‘in-human-rights’ campaign) and forward all sorts of juicy insider stories about who (in power) is doing what with who – they are Not Married to – that nobody was supposed to know.
When a Senator is quietly told by Gaystapo Lobbyists that they Know He spent the weekend billed as a political junket / fact finding mission – hanging with a mistress at a ‘discrete’ location…
– And their Wife & Constituents will be told about it unless they become more ‘tolerant’ and Vote as Told…
Well – the use of such ‘insider’ knowledge about His ‘Secret’ Extra Son – to manipulate Governor ‘Der Arnold’ is a Classic Example of the types of Political / Professional Blackmail that is a specialty of the Gaystapo Thought Police.
After all – those ashamed of their Own Behavior being Exposed, make great allies / stooges to those who promote Evil Behaviors, as they have no credibility that isn’t shattered by their own hypocrisy.
No Chucky the reason is the gay and their allies have complete control of the culture especially media (Hollywood) and have brow beaten society into demanding acceptance of a perversion.
The Canny One is Right On
SEE
BILL MAHER: ‘THERE IS A GAY MAFIA … YOU DO GET WHACKED’
https://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollywood/2014/04/05/maher-gay-mafia-real-and-will-whack-you
During the online-only “Overtime” portion of Friday night’s “Real Time with Bill Maher,” the HBO host brought up the controversy surrounding Brendan Eich [pictured], the Mozilla CEO forced to resign over a 2008 contribution to California’s Proposition 8, the successful referendum that ensured marriage remained a union between one man and one woman.
“I think there is a gay mafia,” Maher said. “I think if you cross them, you do get whacked.”
MAHER: What do you think about the Mozilla CEO having to step down over his donation to a pro-Proposition 8 group…
FMR. REP. TOM DAVIS (R-VA): Because he gave $1,000 eight years ago and it’s come back to haunt him.
CARRIE SHEFFIELD, FORBES: Well, and he gave it when President Obama was still against gay marriage. So, I don’t think it’s very fair.
MAHER: Good point. Also, I think there is a gay mafia. I think if you cross them, you do get whacked.
And with that, Maher joined Andrew Sullivan, another high-profile, pro-gay marriage leftist, in condemning the power-mad mob mentality that hounded a man from his job, not because of anything he did, but because of his personal beliefs…
The term gay mafia might not have been invented by former-Hollywood heavyweight Michael Ovitz, but it did enter the American lexicon in 2002 when Ovitz attacked the “gay mafia” for bringing down a company he formed…
The response from Geffen and a number of other media moguls was swift and severe. Ovitz was never able to recover. Today, the man who once ruled Hollywood has almost completely disappeared.
Maher is a comedian.
Chuck, look at the gay pride public displays and parades.
That is not living with humility and integrity.
That is promoting, advertising, and stuffing your sinful sexual lifestyle in the faces of others.
Those that choose to live a life of sodomy should keep their sexual life private.
Janice, when, exactly, did we stuff our parades into your face? You could have stayed home, you know, and kept your precious children indoors. Or have you no control over yourselves or your families?
“Chuck”: You focus on the wrong reason. You are correct, of course, that homosexuality and its attendant sodomy, are more accepted by all. However, the reason for this acceptability has little to do with how nice and “normal” homosexual couples seem (which is itself a topic of great debate).
The lack of Faith is the real reason that most Americans accept homosexuals as representing “just another flavor” as one critic put it. If Americans believed in the Bible and what it says about sexual ethics was true, acceptance of homosexuality would greatly drop; “marriage” would be seen as impossible. But America is essentially a Pagan country now, where individual “rights” are seen as paramount, at least as to sexual expression. (This is why there is not more outrage over abortion, among other things.)
Homosexual sex is an insult to nature, and to God, its creator. Untold medical and social issues have, and will, flow from the acceptance of homosexuality. Sodomy is no more to celebrated in this country than addiction to heroin, or bestiality, or pornography (which, by the way, is a speciality of the German Bishops, at least in the printed form). But, the Catholic Church is full of homosexuals, and men that are feminine in nature. And, society at large, even among Protestant ministers, are largely afraid of media criticsm and loss of credibilty by opposing “the freedom to love”.
Chuckie,
“Most Gay people today are living their lives openly, productively, and with humility and integrity”!
You will be able to “enjoy” your sodomite partners, even if it is just one, which is highly doubtful for ALL ETERNITY IN HELL!
God did not destroy Sodom and Gommorah for the sin of not being hospitable!
You ignore His Word at the peril of your own salvation! Enough said!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts!
May God have mercy on an amoral Amerika and His Church!
Viva Cristo Rey!
Kenneth M. Fisher
Chuck, you are mostly right, but I don’t believe you went far enough. Not only have gay people come out in the last 30 years – which was incredibly important, but what happened in the last 10 years (since Massachusetts) and 5 years (since Prop 8) was even more important: We came out as people who are capable of, and want, long term permanent loving relationships, and we allowed our straight friends, families, and co-workers to see those relationships for what they are. And what they are are families just like their own.
LOVE is NOT SEXUAL ACTS.
LOVE IS helping the loved get to Heaven for eternity, which includes REPENTANCE for Sodomy (and other mortal sins).
Sodomy is the unnatural abuse of the body of another for one’s personal pleasure.
Read regarding homosexual acts:
Gen 19:1-29; Rom 1:24-27; 1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10; Jude 1:7.
St Paul – 1 Cor 11:27-30 about condemnation for receiving Holy Communion unworthily.
Already those in such so-called “marriages” are divorcing and causing huge problems in the courts if children are involved. Throwing children out of the frying pan into the fire solves nothing. Our society has already suffered enough from heterosexual divorces, and this only adds to the funeral pyre.
One saving grace for our country is that young people get more conservative on the social issues when they get older because they see all the destruction immorality has caused, and the adult children of such “marriages” are already speaking out. That’s all I have got to say. Only God can change hearts and sometimes he does it slowly. One can only hope the train wreck left behind is not too much of a pile up.
Is that ‘T’raditional teaching, YFC, or ‘t’raditional teaching? It is important not to confuse the faithful.
Chris, you confuse love with sexual acts, I don’t. Love consists in a lifetime of mutual giving and caretaking. Im sorry you can’t see that gay couples embody that. But millions of Your Fellow Catholics do get that, and that is why you are losing in the court of public opinion, and, from time to time, within the church.
People can always be led away from truth, YFC, by hirelings. And if those folks in the Church are swayed by your legion, it is not of God, nor is it of Truth which is the foundation of the Church.
But you are right in that love involves commitment, usually the commitment to do or try to do that which is best for the beloved. Consigning one’s beloved to commit mortal sin is not loving them. Mutual giving does not have to include giving that which is morally corrupt, but can and does include sacrificing out of love for the other. Not offering to yield to their desire for you to commit that which is an abomination before God – seemingly out of love. No.
You confuse the temporal with the spiritual and the Faith with public opinion. But methinks that is your agenda.
No need for Brian Camenker to ponder in such depth (with such little insight) the failings of Prop 8’s legal defense. He’s missing some basics here:
1. Prop 8 itself was doomed anyway. It was a last gasp effort to write into law a world view that was declining rapidly, and had the slightest margin of majority support (like 51-52% at the time of its passing). That number has steadily declined since, and wouldn’t have even passed by the time it went to trial. It would have been repealed in one manner or another. That ship has sailed.
2. As Chuck mentions in a previous comment, there are plenty of gay people who are living openly, so everyone knows someone, relative / friend / coworker / public figure… it’s much harder to demonize, and gay people are no longer ostracized and forced to hide as they were generations ago.
The musings on what might be a more successful strategy (more unabashed demonizing and vehement scare tactics) just sound delusional. If anything, they would further marginalize the world view he espouses.
Let us pro-family defenders defend the meaning of marriage, the union between a man and a woman. Let us not call a same-sex union a “marriage.” The former union is good, the latter is evil!!
Most thinking people do not see two people committing to one another in marriage as moral or immoral to begin with, let alone good vs. evil. Try that argument in the courts! LOL!
Peter, try that argument with God! Holy Spirit, guide us!!
Joel,
Thanks, you just spared me the same writing!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts!
May God have mercy on an amoral Amerika and His Church!
Viva Cristo Rey!
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founding Director
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.
Sacred Scripture (Catholic Bible) is the Word of God. (CCC 81)
The “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” contains the Doctrine of the Faith (with footnotes pointing to important Church documents).
* * * * * These are the two most important Books in our Faith, and gifts from the Magisterium.
Bishops and Priests (and Nuns) do not encourage literate Catholics to read these at home.
This is the real reason we are losing all the secular wars.
Catholics do not know their Faith accurately and completely – and the reasons “WHY”.
(“Why” is included in the CCC.)
At the USCCB Bishops conference last week, they reported the following.
They did a survey over the past couple of years in selected US Diocese. Each group had five or six questions to answer.
The groups of Catholics were: Priests, Young Single Adults, Young married Adults, those who attend Mass rarely, those who attend Mass on Sunday regularly, and Hispanics.
The same thread came up in each Groups –
1) Better catechesis with the reasons “WHY”;
and
2) Bishops should stay out of politics.
Most Bishops still do not get it.
Yes, and every group also said that we need to make use of real stories in our Church. I assume that means stories of real people’s heroic attempts to live a Christian life – whether it s from the lives of the Saints or from fellow parishoners (Results were not reported at that level of detail, tho). Of note, the youngest group said that the old meme “love the sinner hate the sin” really means “Hate the sinner”.
YFC, remember that we are talking about people who have not had proper catechesis for over 45 years.
They thirst for the TRUTH, and the reasons “why”.
And the truth is:
1) Sacred Scripture contains the Word of God (CCC81);
and
2) The Catechism of the Catholic Church, second edition (of 1997) contains the complete Doctrine of the Faith.
Therefore these are the two most important books in our Faith.
Every Catholic should read them from cover to cover.
The CCC answers the questions why.
And your personal quote of: ” Of note, the youngest group said that the old meme “love the sinner hate the sin” really means “Hate the sinner” – is a lie.
This is not in the verbal or written report.
Unfortunately “stories” can be twisted, misconstrued, and made up (lies).
Let’s work on getting the TRUTH out first. This has to be our main goal.
I watched the USCCB Conference, and your last sentence about hating the sinner, YFC, was never stated. Where are you getting such baloney?
You harm your own credibility when you make up or repeat things from unreliable sources.
GIFT IDEAS – – – –
Consider giving a CATHOLIC BIBLE an/or the CCC as Christmas gifts this year to all those you care about.
(And for birthday, wedding, or all other occasions.)
For quotes from Popes Francis, Benedict XVI, and St. John Paul II see:
“What Catholics REALLY Believe SOURCE” on the internet.
https://whatcatholicsreallybelieve.com/
Share this information with others.
Give the book – “REMAINING in the TRUTH of CHRIST, Marriage and Communion in the Catholic Church”
published 2014 by Ignatius Press with the copyright being held by “Libreria Editrice Vaticana
to your Diocese Bishop and your Parish Priest.
There is a problem with the proposed argument. It argues that sodomy is dangerous and that homosexual subculture leads to awful results including STD’s, alcohol abuse, violence, etc. But, heterosexual people – whether married or not – also practice sodomy. This is considered part of a “varied” sex life. It turns out that there is a heterosexual “subculture” that also participates in sex outside of procreation.
You can’t argue this as a problem with only homosexuals. You have to be able to look at all sides of an argument and provide plausible responses. As is, this line of argument makes the pro-family movement look bigoted. They argue that this is a problem with gays when it’s looking like more of a widespread practice for all of humanity.
tm17, using the Bible or the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition
please provide the verse or paragraph number where Sodomy practiced by anyone is not a sin.
Or is the practice of sodomy by married persons ok via your personal opinion, or the personal opinion of someone else ?
Sacred Scripture is the Word of God.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Editon contains the Doctrine of the Faith.
These are the most authoritative books in the Catholic Faith – given to us by the Magisterium.
CCC: ” 2349 People should cultivate [chastity] in the way that is suited to their state of life.
Some profess virginity or consecrated celibacy which enables them to give themselves to God alone with an undivided heart in a remarkable manner.
Others live in the way prescribed for all by the moral law, whether they are married or single.
Married people are called to live conjugal chastity; others practice chastity in continence:
There are three forms of the virtue of chastity: the first is that of spouses, the second that of widows, and the third that of virgins. We do not praise any one of them to the exclusion of the others. . . . This is what makes for the richness of the discipline of the Church. ”
Just because someone is married, that does not mean that they can do whatever they wish sexually, and this includes but is not limited to contraception, voluntary sterilization, etc., etc., etc.
That’s right, Sam, straight people can’t have oral sex either, so says the celibate clergy. Which is why the non-celibate straight married church going people role their eyes and refuse to take seriously anything else of a sexual nature that the church teaches.
“Anonymous”: Homosexual people cannot have sex, regardless of whether married (Man-Woman) have sex in a number of different positions. Any other sex is a mortal sin.
Also fundamentally, homosexual sex is an abomination before God (regardless of whether they engage in a position now and then like Man-Woman married people). A man is not ever supposed to be intimate with another man; what they do is unimportant. A man is created for a certain sexual role, and it is never, ever, to be sexually intimate with another man.
And, no, people do not roll their eyes because of any confusion with even treatment between homosexual and Man-Woman couples that choose to have oral or other sex. People roll their eyes because they reject anything that the Church says about sexual restraint and proper limits to be placed on intimacy.
Why is this? People reject the Church’s sexual ethics because they lack Faith. The Church has neither taught them the truth, nor sought to enforce it through thoughtful sermons and other teachings. This is why people are so lost; they have lost their Faith (as have the vast majority of Catholic priests, bishops and the like, a good number of whom are practitioners themselves).
It is wrong for homosexuals to marry because that is not what they were intended by God to do. This conclusion is very clear from the Bible and from Church teachings. Civil law used to parrot Church law to a great extent, but now — under Satan’s superior intellect — courts have sought to create an unnatural division between them. Still, homosexuals should not marry, just like people should not be having sex with dogs.
So Saint Christopher, I have to ask: If a virginal gay man convinces himself that he is straight and marries a woman, and then has sex with her, is that, in your mind, moral? Can he do that on Saturday and go to Church on Sunday and receive communion, if in the interim he realizes it was a mistake and that he was gay all along?
St Christopher opines: Homosexual people cannot have sex, regardless of whether married (Man-Woman) have sex in a number of different positions.
Uhhh. homosexual people have a lot of sex. Where do you get your data?
Saint Christopher you are so silly. You pretend that straight people role their eyes because they think oral sex is something gay people do.
nother, mous-
If a virginal gay man convinces himself that he is straight and marries a woman, and then has sex with her, is that, in your mind, moral?
If they married in the Church, yes.
Can he do that on Saturday and go to Church on Sunday and receive communion, if in the interim he realizes it was a mistake and that he was gay all along?
Yes, as long as he has not committed any mortal sin.
Anonymous, every time you post because you make so many false statements about Priests and the Faith – please provide a link to an “official” Church document to insure/prove you are not lying.
Where is the link to prove your statement ?
“Anonymous” and “another ‘mous”: You did not read my post, as you rarely ever do. Homosexual sexual people cannot ever, never, have sex (regardless of what positions they assume).
Stratight people think of homosexual sex in “fairness” terms, in that straight people are not taught the truth and the consequences of sinful behavior.
You try ot Pharisee every argument, by seeking a point of definition here, or some element of law there. None of that is relevant; whatever married people do together cannot ever, never, justifiy homosexuals having sex. Is that easy enough for you to understand? Merely because married people might have oral sex, or engage in sodomy, does not justify homosexual sex. You sound like little children in a school yard: “no fair, they go to do it, why can’t I do the same thing”/
Well homosexual sex, however practised, is never the same thing. And a society has a right — separate from a religious commandment — to control deviant behavior (bestiality, sex with children and homosexual sex). Happy that the Sixth Circuit says so, and we will see what the Supremes do with the issue.
They may not have read your message, St. Christopher, but they understand it very clearly. That’s why they are sticking to fallacious reasoning and – very accurate – sounding like foot stomping children on a playground demanding more recess time or needing to ‘make sure’ they get the ball at the next play time. I’m thinking it’s the latter.
That last bit about a virginal ‘gay’ man who marries a woman is absurd. This whole push to remove/replace man – that is what the individual is – with the term ‘gay’ is such a ruse. Nobody seems to so narrowly define this group as themselves, and yet anyone who disagrees with the convoluted logic is told to stop viewing them as just being ‘gay’.
That in itself, the ocd call me this, no don’t call me this, seems like a mental disorder if not a Charles Boyer gaslighting attempt. Thank you again for wading through the plague of mice.
Ann Malley, I’m sorry, but your response here just amounts to bad spirited attacks b/c you don’t like the questions raised.
You use a “gay” man simply to differentiate him from a man that is sexually attracted to women. The question, to me, is sound.
If a man who is sexually attracted to other men, but marries because he has difficulty accepting this about himself due to being told he is a disgusting sick freak by his church and not wanting to be ridiculed and rejected by his own family, this is a significant problem.
Once he understands he is not sexually attracted to his wife, and has never been sexually attracted to his wife, he should immediately seek an annulment. It is simply not fair to his wife, who deserves a life partner that experiences the same joy in their relationship that she does. There may very well be altruistic love between them, but that is not the relationship that fits a marriage.
In short, this is a man that is incapable of practicing the sacrament of marriage with his wife, and he should not pretend otherwise.Thus, yes, it is a sin for him to continue in this marriage once he understand he is unsuitable.
However, Ann, your attempt to dismiss this legitimate question by comparing the person who posed the question to a “child” on the “playground” is both arrogant and condescending.
You are attempting to assert your superiority by doing so, probably due to you thinking your Traditionalist views somehow make you more worthy before God. Perhaps this is so, but your desire to parade this “superiority” suggests your conformity is considerably influenced by your desire for worldly, rather than heavenly, status.
As for you St. Christopher, you say society has a right to stop “deviant” behavior. Just what is “deviant”—behavior that personally disgusts you? Or is it serious sin? If it is the latter, does the law have the right to 1) ban gluttons from eating at a restaurant or buying more food than is necessary to survive? 2) put people who are say 50 or 100lbs overweight in prison for their gluttony? 3) ban gluttons from openly expressing their love for food or good tasting meals? 4) ban gluttons from both buying and eating particularly unhealthy food, or food that tends to make them gain weight?
If it is not moral for society to stop the deviant eating behaviors of gluttons, why is it moral to stop the deviant sexual behaviors of homosexuals?
…your attempt to promote the strawman of a virginal ‘gay’ man who marries a woman is a futile attempt at distraction, JonJ, much like your attempting to make this a personal attack based on mean spiritedness. The same can be said for your attempt to stick the label of arrogant and condescending on a response aimed at individuals who do not even care to name themselves and engage in proper dialog – but choose instead to adopt a pack mentality of attack and divide and distract. You may consider that mature and well intended, but we differ in that assessment.
The question posed – ‘gay’ man marrying woman – may be sound to you because it is one that is used in an attempt to unseat the clear teachings of the Church with regard to homosexual sexual activity.
The Church must always speak the Truth, JonJ. Much like Christ always spoke the Truth because He was/is the incarnation of just that. And that which is intrinsically evil, needs to be called out as such. If individuals ‘choose’ otherwise, they are at liberty to go their own way. But attempting to force inclusion into the Catholic Church by way of prideful promotion of that which goes against Christ is disingenuous and beyond the pale.
Much like if the United States instituted regular flag burning ceremonies complete with anti-American demonstrations as a means of demonstrating her inclusive nature. Sorry, but you’re not fooling anybody. Inclusion isn’t the game – destruction is. And we all understand this.
The Question, Ann, is sound because it is something you frequently see in the life experiences of gay and transgendered individuals.
In my youth, I was quite interested in the impact of Dawinian natural selction on human behavior, a field of study known as Sociobiology, or in its more recent manifestation in psychology: Evolutionary Psychology.
I considered two human behaviors as difficult to explain under this theoretical framework: 1) warfare and 2) homosexuality/ transexuality ect. I put considerably effort trying to understand these apparent paradoxes though, honestly, I was much more interested in the behavioral underpinnings behind warfare.
As a result, I spent a lot of time in talking to people in a local gay bar (in a small midwestern city such that I ended up meeting both gay and openly transsexual people. My theories at the time were embarrassingly crude, but I had a lot of open ridicule, abuse, and open violence directed at no only others but also at myself because some people assumed I was also either gay or transgendered.
While most people don’t go out of their way to be hateful or abusive, enough do that the POV of these individuals is one of disproportionate hatred. NO ONE deserved to be treated like these people. I am disgusted that self-proclaimed devout people here say the same sort of things.
Hypocrites, look to the board in your own eye first.
#17 Makes a basic mistake in attempting to compare Heterosexuals who dip in to Physically Harmful & Pathological Hetero-Anal Behaviors – and the Homo-Anal Coprophile caucus within the Gaystapo Alliance.
It is a long standing axiom of the Law that “The Use of Something is Not known by its Abuse”
For instance, automobiles are meant for transportation, not car wrecks – but they do happen, even to good drivers – but more often to bad ones (like those fleeing the Police pursuit running over pedestrians to get away) But – this does Not mean that responsible drivers should be penalized.
Heterosexuality can be Open to Life – or in some cases Abuse, in a way that Homo-Anal Behaviors Never Could.
That Some Heterosexuals Abuse the Gift – does not make it equivalent to the Homo-Anal Coprophile Population – whose pretense of ‘Love’ between Men is the opposite of the Catholic Church, which fully endorses True Love between all Men & Women (as brothers & sisters in Christ)…
As opposed to the demand that “Love” Must Include Acts like joining the Conga Line of Buggery that continues to produce many new treatment resistant strains of diseases that the Human Lower Colon provides a most efficient means of transmission.
BTW – investigations in to ‘Heterosexual Aids’ quite often reveal that the Male Partner was switch hitting ‘On the Down Low’.
Although his HIV/ STD Status is as unknown as the most basic information about POTUS Barry Soetoro (like the ‘sealed; settlement of Barry Sexually Harassing Men at Harvard the media avoids) – Him and his pal The Rahm were both notorious stall stallions at Chicago’s “Man Country” Bathhouse…
This is in response to the post of tm17. Sex perversions are IMMORAL, and condemned by the Church! No one in their right mind, engages in such FILTH!! These filthy acts used to be ILLEGAL!! Also– DEFINITELY against the law, in marital relationships! PERIOD!! Only VERY SICK MARRIED COUPLES, engage in such ABUSIVE FILTH!! And a doctor, clergyman, or psychologist, ought to PUT A STOP to such deviant behaviors, of SICK married couples!! Such acts are a TOTAL VIOLATION OF MARRIAGE VOWS– and may also be a sign of deviant ABUSE to one’s spouse!! NO– this is NOT MARRIAGE!! And NO– this is NOT a common practice, of healthy, NORMAL married people!!
As Camenker clearly shows, Alliance Defending Freedom, the group who was “defending” Prop 8, is nothing more than a money scam. They need to be exposed and return donations they have collected fraudulently.
It all goes back to the lack of catechesis by Bishops (whose main task is to teach), and their Priests.
They do not tell Catholics to read the Bible and CCC at home. –
The two most important books in our Faith, and from the Magisterium.
How many Catholics do you know who have read the Bible from cover to cover ?
How many Catholics do you know who have read the CCC from cover to cover?
How many Diocese Bishops (and Parish Priests) have encouraged the at home reading of both at home ?
It is NOT important that the Church be large in numbers.
It is important that the Church teach TRUTH.
Jesus said few will be saved.
This is in response to the post of Chris. A parish church is supposed to teach the Catholic Faith, to all of her Catholic Faithful, in the pews! NOT send them all home, to hopefully pick up a Bible or copy of the Catechism, and try to read it— and understand what they are reading, too! Bless you, for suggesting this, however! The parish church is supposed to thoroughly teach the Catechism, and all aspects of the Catholic Faith, to everyone! Children are supposed to be required to attend Catechism classes! And adults must all be brought up, the same way! The priests (and nuns!) are supposed to train everyone, and answer their questions! A Catholic is not prepared to go to Mass, Confession, or any other Sacrament– until they have received a complete religious training! Tragically– since Vatican II, the Church has irresponsibly abandoned religious training! Well, God bless those who recommend reading the Catechism and Bible, at home! Our Church has sadly abandoned everyone– it is morally and spiritually corrupt, and nearly destroyed!!
Homosexuality, not so long ago, almost always was considered and viewed as a moral issue in our once somewhat former Christian moral society. Today homosexual promoters along with libertine Democrats have taken this moral issue in this dumbed down society of today and remade it into one of civil rights and discrimination and refer to it as simply a debate. Always brought up by them is the touchy-feely word “love” and always implying it must be good while ignoring any truth that there is “bad love”. Apostate federal judges, knowing full well Gods laws, instead declare themselves supreme over God and rule in favor of the homosexual agenda. This immorality is not about civil rights or discrimination, the reality is that this truly is a continuation from the serpent tempting Adam & Eve and continuing to our day. The War of Good verses Evil and by all appearances Evil today seems to be winning while Christianity appears to be losing and collapsing.
I think this whole issue has to be judged in light of the modern day sexual revolution. As the late, great Fr. Benedict Groeschel reminded us in this video, the sexual revolution was NOT started by persons with same-sex attractions. They were-and still are-a much too small group compared to the much larger heterosexual population who both started it and are still participating in it-right at this moment and at a massive scale. Its first major starting point was probably after the 1929 Lambeth conference in the Anglican Church, which erroneously legitimized contraception, then came the FDA’s approval of birth control pills in 1960, Griswold vs. Connecticut in 1963, etc., etc. What demographic group is seeing an alarming rise in sexually transmitted diseases right now? Elderly heterosexual people! Authentic Christian chastity must be evangelized to persons across all demographic groups. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m3Y_15y9w8
Jeremiah, you harm your credibility when you do not use official info.
Always check things out.
The Center for Disease Control (CDC) states that the highest age group for sexually transmitted diseases is15 – 27.
https://www.cdc.gov/std/stats/STI-Estimates-Fact-Sheet-Feb-2013.pdf
and
https://www.cdc.gov/std/stats12/adol.htm
However it would not surprise me that with the unnatural quest for youth, and availability of unnecessary drugs such as Viagra (at taxpayer expense) that the older population STD rate has increased.
People need to be more concerned with their eternal salvation, and less with lust.
Good Point Al – particularly the use of CDC studies showing that the biggest Growth in the spread of Aids, Syphilis… is predominately amongst the younger Homo-Anal Coprophile crowd – many of whom are infected with strains that are Already Treatment Resistant when received.
This often means that someone using the new Aids’ Drug Cocktails’ (Often at taxpayer expense – via ‘partners’ benefits) has gotten just well enough to rejoin the Conga Line of Buggery – without actually being cured before doing so, often developing Treatment Resistant strains in the process.
Indeed, amongst many in the Homo-Anal Male population the push for ‘marriage’ / partners programs is designed primarily to gain access to Free Benefits for treating Diseases Acquired from Pathological Behaviors they Chose to engage in…
– In turn allowing them to spend their money on Attacking Marriage & its defenders in the hated Herero-Patriarchy; as opposed to paying for the consequences of their Behaviors.
BTW quite a few actually seek to spread the Virus / Bacteria (Known as “Bug Chasers & Gift Givers” )in order to ‘enjoy’ full (excrement deleted) contact so central to the ‘Frothy Mixer’ lifestyle of the Savage Lickspittle Lobby.
The ‘thinking’ is that If you already have Aids, then there is no need to use anything (like the ‘full body condom’ from National Lampoon movies) that gets in the way of full bare backed contact.
Actually the ‘sexual revolution’ was largely fueled by ‘Unkle Kinsey’ (Homo-Anal Sado-Masochistic Pederast Rapist ‘Dr. Alfred Kinsey’ – and colleagues) – who used Junk ‘science’ and ‘Scientific Rape’ of toddler age boys to legitimize his own pederast perversions and ‘inspire’ others to ‘Love’ all the harder…
And the Hollyweird Media of course – whose product is finding and Sell the ‘sex appeal’ – in everything from toothpaste to dog food:
SEE
San Francisco’s Gay Icon Larry Brinkin Guilty of Felony Child Porn Possession
https://cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/san-francisco-s-gay-icon-larry-brinkin-guilty-felony-child-porn
SEE ALSO:
KINSEY: THE LEADER OF THE MOST VICIOUS INTERNATIONAL PEDOPHILE RING OF THE 20TH CENTURY
http://www.drjudithreisman.com/old/table34.htm
“Table 34” from Sexual Behavior in the Human Male (1948) page 180,
Includes claiming a 5 month baby tested for “orgasm” allegedly has “3” and the 4 year old has “26” in “24 hrs,” which is a round the clock (Rape) ‘experiment’ on this child, and others.
This was obtained, the Kinsey people claim, from the Nazi, Von Balluseck, and/or from “Rex King,” the Arizona rapist of 800 children that Kinsey and his colleagues celebrate.
Our precious, God-given Judeo-Christian heritage, has been lost, since the evil 1960’s! A great tragedy! Christian Marriage is a Sacrament in the Catholic Church, and in most other churches, too! Regardless if you have children or not! Children are a secondary issue– but all couples who take Marriage Vows, must, before God– be open to God sending them children!! Marriage is ordained by God! And it is NOT all about transient human emotions, and narcissistic pleasures!! Marriage Vows are a BIG ADULT RESPONSIBILITY!! NOT FOR ANTI-SOCIETY, IMMATURE, IMMORAL HIPPIES!! Sex outside Marriage is a SIN!! Deviant sex acts of all types, including gay sex acts– are a SIN!! The Divinely-ordained virtues of Chastity and Modesty are of SUPREME IMPORTANCE! Americans all need to GO TO CHURCH ON SUNDAYS, and LEARN MORALITY! It is only through our churches, and through Biblical training— that our Judeo-Christian heritage can be fully recovered! Then, our society will be able to be re-established upon the principles of our true heritage!
I will add something to my above post. The traditional, God-given, beautiful roles of “Mother” and “Father” have been tragically mocked and ridiculed, by immature hippies, liberals, feminists, and other “anti-society” misfits! The young are no longer taught to grow up, to be a true MAN and a true WOMAN— just as God, and Mother Nature, meant for them to be!! And to someday, after marriage— become excellent Mother and Father role models, for their children!! Instead– the crazy liberals teach them all to grow up to be immature, immoral, selfish, babyish MISFITS!! Just as in the days of Moses, wrangling with the unfaithful Israelites— we desperately need strong religious leaders, to bring the wayward “American sheep” back to the fold!! Tell all the immoral, immature feminists, liberals, and other misfits: NO!! And MEAN IT!!
Linda, I don’t think all of the “feminist” agenda was immoral and immature. Some of what the feminists had to say made sense. But, like any big social movement, it also attracted a lot of people who wanted to use just change to make immoral behavior acceptable.
For example, we DID have some silly, and toxic ideas about what it meant to be a man or woman—and many of these ideas operated against women.
Some people had this idea that women weren’t suited for anything but housework and baby rearing. That being a woman made one unsuitable for working as a doctor, lawyer, a politician and all kinds of other things that women were perfectly capable of doing.
These ideas became hugely constricting for single, never married women. It was somewhat cruel to act like they could never be anything more than handmaids to male decision-makers in the work world, no matter their capabilities, knowledge, or experience.
In effect, the social mores were preventing them from sharing the gifts God gave them with the world because society was telling them their “proper” role was to be a mother and raise children, and if they couldn’t do that, then they were useless failures,
From the apparition of Our Lady of the Americas: In August 1957 The Blessed Virgin said; “What am I to do, child of my heart, when my children turn from me? The false peace of this world lures them and in the end will destroy them. They think they have done enough in consecrating themselves to my Immaculate Heart. It is not enough. That which I ask for and is most important many have not given me. What I ask, have asked, and will continue to ask is reformation of life. There must be sanctification from within. I will work my miracles of grace only in those who ask for them and empty their souls of the love and attachment to sin and all that is displeasing to my Son. Souls who cling to sin cannot have their hands free to receive the treasures of grace that I hold out to them.”
Make sure that your own lives are perfect and holy:
Make sure that you love God with all your mind, all your soul, all your heart and all your strength.
Make absolutely sure that you love your neighbor.
Leviticus 19: 1 And the LORD said to Moses,
2 “Say to all the congregation of the people of Israel, You shall be holy; for I the LORD your God am holy.
3 Every one of you shall revere his mother and his father, and you shall keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.
4 Do not turn to idols or make for yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.
5 “When you offer a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, you shall offer it so that you may be accepted.
6 It shall be eaten the same day you offer it, or on the morrow; and anything left over until the third day shall be burned with fire.
7 If it is eaten at all on the third day, it is an abomination; it will not be accepted,
8 and every one who eats it shall bear his iniquity, because he has profaned a holy thing of the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from his people.
9 “When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap your field to its very border, neither shall you gather the gleanings after your harvest.
10 And you shall not strip your vineyard bare, neither shall you gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and for the sojourner: I am the LORD your God.
11 “You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another.
12 And you shall not swear by my name falsely, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.
13 “You shall not oppress your neighbor or rob him. The wages of a hired servant shall not remain with you all night until the morning.
14 You shall not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block before the blind, but you shall fear your God: I am the LORD.
15 “You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor.
16 You shall not go up and down as a slanderer among your people, and you shall not stand forth against the life of your neighbor: I am the LORD.
17 “You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason with your neighbor, lest you bear sin because of him.
18 You shall not take vengeance or bear any grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.
“Anonymous”: None of this, none of it, justifies any sex between people of the same gender. There is no Biblical support — none — to support the application of acceptance, of mercy, of welcoming, of anything (other than disgust and rejection) regarding the degradation of two men having sex with each other (however performed).
Christ commanded his disciples to go forth and teach the world His commandments. They did not go into the world and say, “hey listen up: whatever yuo were doing to each other, and to your neighbors, it is fine with me and with God. Just try to “love”. What garbage you and your sodomite pals try to foist on Catholics. Too bad that our bishops just love what you say.
You need to remember that none of what you list has anything to do with confronting evil, and with rejecting the truth of evil when you see it. It is not “slander” to tell your brother that he is committing a mortal sin when he is! In fact, it is scandal when you ignore it, and accept it, and try to pass it off as pleasing to God. The HomoFascist Squad needs to watch out what they say: words count.
OK St. Christopher, once again, you are just totally gay-brained.
Of course there is no sex between people of the same gender. No duh.
Everything the Lord lists (it is His Word) has to do with confronting evil.
It is not slander to tell someone they are committing a mortal sin. Or a venial sin.
This was about reformation of life that our Lady of America asked for which is necessary for God to pour out His grace on us.
Thank you again, St. Christopher for speaking to the truth. But those with itching ears will not have it.
God bless!
The question, St. Christopher, isn’t about gay sex being justified. For the devout Catholic, that answer is clear.
The question is: how are we to treat someone who cannot, or will not, stop sinning? Your answer is “nothing but disgust and rejection” if the sin is homosexuality.
I don’t think this is Biblical. Certainly, the Bible tells us to reject sin, to avoid the near occasion of sin, and to remove people from society who cause moral rot. Yet, on the other hand, Christ showed mercy and kindness to openly sinful people like prostitutes.
Christ, of course, told them to “sin no more”. Yet, since none of them were the Virgin Mary, we know that, to a lesser or greater extent, they all failed. Further, as God, Christ knew they would fail and could probably tell you exactly how many times, and under what circumstances, they would fail.
Consequently, Christ’s respectful treatment of prostitutes was not conditioned on them sinning no more. I guess you could say that treating a habitual sinner with dignity might be conditioned on the sinner making a good faith effort to sin no more. Yet, I think it’s safe to presume that Christ must have encountered many prostitutes whom his divine insight told him would never change their ways. The Bible does not record Jesus treating these individuals with “nothing but disgust and rejection”.
So St. Christopher, we come to the question what IS allowable behavior for a Christian when confronted by a person who will not stop sinning. Part of the answer depends on the nature of the sin.
But, let’s leave that aside for a moment and get back onto the general appropriate response for a Catholic. Rejection might be appropriate, but I think should be restricted to cases where the sinner’s behavior is tempting US into sin. Thus, rejection comes into play due to the particular moral WEAKNESSES of the Catholic. Rejection as a method to highlight the moral probity or righteousness of the Catholic is someone who has succumbed to the sin of pride and the trap of seeking worldy status as a reward for their godliness.
Now, Christ could not be tempted into sin and thus needed to reject any habitual sinner. Thus, rejection of the habitual sinner should not be a universal response of every Catholic.
On the flip side, a Catholic who fails to reject a sinner whose failures tempt them in an effort to appear more like Christ than they really are, has also succumbed to the sin of pride.
So, St. Christopher, if you find yourself tempted into sin by the presence of a habitual homosexual, by all means reject them. Otherwise, I think you should accept them in your presence with respect and dignity in the hope that your example will help them “sin no more”.
JonJ – I find your comment very insightful. Thanks.
You are assuming, JonJ, that St. Christopher is only advocating against the sins of homosexual sex. If that is your assessment, it is only indicative of your own hyper-focus on that particular issue.
Get off the high horse, Ann. Clearly what JonJ has written goes much deeper than the superficial homo-fixation you and most of the regular posters betray here. Read it again.
Gosh Ann, the text of St. Christopher’s comment makes it pretty clear that he is referring ONLY to homosexual sex
:
“None of this, none of it, justifies any sex between people of the same gender. There is no Biblical support — none — to support the application of acceptance, of mercy, of welcoming, of anything (other than disgust and rejection) regarding the degradation of two men having sex with each other (however performed).”
Frankly Ann, I’m mystified how you think St. Christopher’s use of “disgust and rejection” can apply to ANYTHING but homosexual sex. He even specifies that it is homosexual sex between two men that he is referring to.
Your effort to refute my analysis is really extending to the pathetic.
Re: Anne T. says:
November 13, 2014 at 12:03 am
You are correct Anne T. Well it seems like we are losing but even if we save just one soul with the truth, we have won so much more for our Lord. Even when the end times come, our Lord will take back what is His. The enemy may think it is winning but no, for in this life everything is only temporary. Which I rejoice in the Lord knowing that. He is our peace, our joy and love. We grief the poor souls lost for now but it is OUR Loving and most merciful Lord who decides if they are truly lost for He knows their hearts. It will take humility in practice to continue to pray for the conversion of all sinners. Not praying in the way we see fit but truly seeking to pray in which most pleasing to our beloved Jesus. Have nothing to do with the ways of the world but only seek Jesus and His saving blood. His blood is precious and pure. The deceptions and lies of the enemy are not, they only lead to ugly pride, moral relativism, darkness etc We pray that many will make God’s holy will a priority even when faced with challenges. Those that have power to do and we all have a responsibility to at least pray and fast.
Amen, Abecca.
I remember waiting in line outside former judge ‘von-wanker’s Prop-8 courtroom for a good seat during Blankenthorn’s testimony.
Most around me were GILBERT Activists – including one younger womyn, who was asked by another womyn if she too was ‘Gaily Happy’.
She replied somewhat ashamedly that No, She Wasn’t; But brightened up and added – “But I am Questioning”, as if it was a self improvement program she was working on.
Hence the GILBERTS? Try to pitch real big tents – inclusive of all save those afflicted with the Thought Crime of ‘Ism-Obia’ – meaning failure or refusal to pander to their pathology.
Author Johan Hari provides background on the pogrom, and although himself a Homo-Anal Coprophile – discusses the Gaystapo in his essay:
The Strange, Strange Story of the Gay Fascists
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-strange-strange-story_b_136697.html
… This is a taboo topic for a gay left-wing man like me to touch, but there has always been a weird, disproportionate overlap between homosexuality and fascism…
And this Gaystapo has an icon to revere, an alternative Fuhrer to worship: the lost gay fascist leader Ernst Rohm. Along with Adolf Hitler, Rohm was the founding father of Nazism…
– first spotted the potential of a soap-box ranter called Adolf Hitler… for many years as “Rohm’s boy… “Hitler was, to a substantial extent, Rohm’s protégé.”
He flaunted his homosexuality in public and insisted his cronies do the same.
He believed straight people weren’t as adept at bullying and aggression as homosexuals, so homosexuality was given a high premium in the SA.