….First, I think the TLM is a beautiful liturgy with a truly ancient provenance that is spiritually fruitful and aesthetically uplifting when done well. It was the Church’s liturgy for centuries and has spawned works of artistic genius in music, architecture, and the visual arts. For example, would the architectural grandeur of gothic churches have ever been invented for today’s horizontalist liturgical emphasis? I think not. And the beauty of the spiritual and artistic progeny of the old Mass belongs to the entire Church and her patrimony and it should never have been suppressed, even as the legitimate liturgical reform moved forward—a reform movement I think was necessary.
Therefore, ironically, I reject the suppression of the old Mass and its banishment to a few backwaters as a move almost guaranteed to remove that liturgy from the Church’s treasury and memory and to place it instead into the hands of those who would weaponize it against the Church. The more broadly it is available, the less will it become a talisman of a faux recusant resistance to the contemporary magisterium.
Second, although I support the Novus Ordo as the expression of the liturgical reform and I in no way reject its legitimacy (and even affirm the unique beauty of its “noble simplicity”), I think it has been a mistake to treat the liturgical reforms as a “one and done” kind of deal where any future tweaking of that liturgy is disallowed. After all, the liturgical changes were sweeping, swift, and rather radical, so why should it just be assumed they got everything correct right out of the gate? Why the defensiveness where every question about the reform is treated as an act of disobedience to the Pope? And how does one make the claim the Novus Ordo is now set in stone when its very existence is proof that no liturgy is set in stone?
Therefore, I think Pope Benedict XVI, in issuing Summorum Pontificum, got it right. He was correct to hope for a gradual cross-fertilization of the two liturgies. And the fact that after only a few short years such a process had not yet happened should not be an indication the attempt was flawed in principle and a failure in practice. I am a firm believer in the so-called “reform of the reform” of the liturgy and there are some hopeful signs emerging in the work of people like Adam Bartlett with his “Source and Summit” resources that should not be casually dismissed or ignored. I think that this process of reform requires an “all hands on deck” approach (Todos! Todos!) where all voices are heard and all constructive input is welcomed no matter the source.
Perhaps, instead of a synod on synods, we should have a synod on the liturgy where all such voices are heard. Indeed, a good case could be made that the heart and soul of any true synodality is the fact that the whole Church is present in the Eucharistic celebration of the local Church. Therefore, a healthy synodality requires a healthy liturgy.
Third, I signed the letter because I am a firm believer in ad orientem worship and I support the cross-fertilization of this element of the old Mass into the new. And the reason why I support it has nothing to do with aesthetics. I support it because I think worship where the priest faces the people fosters clericalism. I know many priests who primarily celebrate the Novus Ordo who, when celebrating the TLM, speak of its liberating effects wherein the priest ceases to be the focus of attention, where he does not have to be “on”, and where he can lose himself in the liturgical action wherein “He must increase and I must decrease”. The priest faces East, along with the people, and carries them on his back.
But all too often the priest in many parishes becomes a “show” and even takes it upon himself to alter the words of the liturgy (especially with “gendered” words). This can obviously happen as well even in ad orientem worship and so it is no guarantee against liturgical clericalism. But I would wager that it is far less frequent since it is, in its essence, less clericalistic.
Finally, I support wide access to the TLM because I think it is the pastorally sensitive thing to do. I mentioned earlier my critique of elements within the traditionalist movement. But I also acknowledge that those people are Catholics too and worthy of pastoral accompaniment. I do not think it wise, therefore, to further the radicalization by trying to stomp it out with acts of raw authority in which the true root causes of the malaise are never addressed. Does this Pope not speak all the time of the need to accompany those on the peripheries? Is that not why he turns a blind eye to the proliferation of “Pride” Masses? So we can “build a bridge” to those sexual peripheries in highly questionable ways, but we must burn the bridge to the traditionalist periphery? The former is deemed to be “wounded sheep in need of a shepherd”. The latter is just dismissed as “indietrists” who require a quick slap across the face….
By Larry Chapp in Catholic World Report
I went to a TLM in my diocese to check it out. Little House on the Prairie women and children, small church was only half full. I don’t get it. Have no interest in returning. Leave it alone and it will die, IMO. Doesn’t appeal to the modern person who has an iPhone and wears blue jeans.
If you are repelled by children and families, that says more about you.
Get back to us with your thoughts on any LGBTQ Mass you attended. How were their outfits? How can we let that group die out?
Why on earth do you look at “who is going to Mass”— like “who are the “cool guys” at your favorite, sinfil bar in town?” Good Catholic families– married in the Church, with children– are exactly who should be at Mass! Sadly, there are too few of them! Instead, there are many more “shacking-up” couples, with birth control and abortion, these days! Horrible! It is just wonderful, that this Latin Tridentine Mass priest is providing a beautiful, holy Mass for these good, devout Catholic families! The Mass has nothing at all to do with whoever attends it. You should know that. Go to Mass only for one reason: to worship God. Forget the people. How many young unmarried, “living together” couples, with birth control and abortions, and abortion providers, gay couples, etc, are at your Novus Ordo Masses– receiving Communion, or even serving Communion, as Eucharistic Ministers? Modern people are typically irreligious, materialistic, “Me-oriented,” worldly, seculns— and very casual with sins, which they think they are “entitled” to “choose” for themselves. People in contemporary society do not know or understand God or religion. Throw away your cell phone, and go to Mass and start practicing the Catholic Faith– alone, cultivating a relationship, prayerfully, with the Lord.
The word “secular” was misspelled in my comment of July 27, at 5:52pm.
It would be hard to compose a more judgemental post than that. Congratulations. If judgmentalism were an olympic sport, you’d win gold.
Ahem! I usually leave my cell phone in a secure place in my car when I go into a Traditional Latin Mass. I also leave my blue jeans, and I do wear them with modest blouses and tees, at home, safe and secure for gardening, shopping and climbing ladders, which cannot be done so modestly in a skirt. I know quite a few other ladies who go to the Traditional Mass who do the same. By the way, I am not typing on an old push carriage type writer but a fairly modern computer. I would say, though, that some older inventions are much better than some newer ones, like Morse Code is much faster than texting.
You forgot Chapel Veils ding dong.
That does NOT describe the typical Latin Mass community. You probably attended some outlier community of sedevacantists. Find a mainstream TLM church for a better impression or understanding. And what do jeans and iPhones have to do with ANYTHING regarding the Catholic Faith or celebration of the Mass?
I take quick and resolute exception to the inaccurate description by Chapp: that those who are exclusively devoted to the Extraordinary Form are being “dismissed” by the Pope and by the Holy See as “indietrists’ who require a quick slap across the face.”
This is false and wrong, as one can plainly see by objectively looking at recent Church history.
The previous two popes, as well as the present one, Pope Francis, have bent over backwards to accommodate and to accompany those who are devoted to the 1962 Missal.
What did the Church get in return? Petulance, divisiveness, contempt. I mean, look at the detestable behavior of the beloved SSPX.
No, the devotees of the EF have not been “mistreated” in any way. Rather, these people have been disobeying the Church since the early 1970’s, and it’s got to stop already.
Their dissent has gone on too long, and we should breathe a sigh of relief that at last the Church, out of love and pastoral care, is finally addressing their stubborn disobedience and dissent.
“What did the Church get in return? Petulance, divisiveness, contempt.”
I must have been asleep in quoting jon. I meant to add that (in so many words) this characterization was a tendentious over-generalization/ over-simplification of the facts. There — I’m awake now.
Jon needs to go back and read the news stories of public apologies made by recent popes– Pope St. John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI, and Pope Francis have all made many public apologies for many scandals, mistakes and misdeeds of the Church– clerical sex abuse scandals, financial scandals, mistreatment of indigenous peoples, Jews, Black slaves, etc., mistreatment of Protestants, historically, burning Protestant reformers at the stake, etc. Our Faith and Morals, the Bible and Catechism– all 100% truthful, handed down to us from Christ, are all correct, set in stone, forever. But sometimes, Catholic clerics do commit sins, against Christ! If so, then they must go to Confession and repent. Catholic clerics sometimes misjudge things, and they do also make errors, and sometimes, some of them do commit sins. For example, the former Cardinal McCarrick, once one of the “C9,” the Pope’s Council of Cardinals, was a terrible, terrible sinner! The Pope has the “C9,” and College of Cardinals, and all his bishops, who all have served as his advisors from time to time. A pope never acts alone, in guiding the Catholic Church– he needs his advisors. The errors of the “Pachamama” incident are well-known. Hope we never again see those awful, heretical Pachamama idols! Not sure if Pope Francis ever apologized for using a filthy Italian slur to describe gays. He has also made other errors of judgment, using filthy language. And he has supported filthy, sinful celebrities at times, as well as bad, sinful Catholics– like bad Jesuit Fr. James Martin. And he lifted the rightly deserved excommunication of evil, ex-Jesuit Marko “Rapenik”– although an outcry in support of the poor victims caused the Pope to re-open “Rapenik’s” evil, demonic case. It looks like Pope Francis has been very slow to support victims of evil clerical sex abuse, he seems very lenient on criminal clerics, even supportive of them, allowing them to go unpunished– unless there is a big outcry. So anyway, popes do make misjudgments and errors. That’s a fact. However, their human errors do not change Christ’s teachings– if you commit sin, you must go to Confession. The pope has always had a Confessor. He needs one. Everyone does! It is possible that Pope Francis made an error in judgment, trying to wrongfully restrict our access to our ancient, holy, 1500+ years-old, Tridentine Latin Mass– which can never be abrogated. This is one form of Mass, very ancient, which rightfully belongs to all Catholics. Have there been liturgical abuses in the Novus Ordo Mass, or the Tridentine Latin Mass– or any other forms of the Mass? There is absolutely nothing “wrong” with any of those forms of the Mass. If there are abuses, let’s see the Pope, or a local Bishop, clean up those abuses! That is the right thing to do! For example– Jesuit Fr. James Martin daily commits sins and liturgical abuses at his Masses, as some sort of “Gay Lifestyle Apologist,”
championing the Gay Lifestyle, blessing gay unions– and that is extremely sinful– and heretical! But there is nothing wrong with the Novus Ordo Mass itself. Those abuses must be cleaned up. No Mass must ever be turned into a “Gay Mass”— a horror, before Jesus Christ!
This comment by “Reply” is a fine example of straw man and of inappropriate conflation of topics.
One only has to read the first sentence to see that. Then skip the rest.
Quote “So let those who want to pray be allowed to pray in what they consider their Church. Please, let no Christian church be abolished directly or indirectly,” Francis said.
“Churches are not to be touched!” he added. Unquote
https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2024/08/26/pope-francis-on-ukraines-russian-orthodox-church-ban-churches-are-not-to-be-touched/
The person on here who coninues to mock the TLM, Latin, lace, incense, altar boys only, kneeling, communion on the tounge, Mozart, Palastrina, Gregorina chant, organ music and all that is holy only tries to make you upset, he or she is obviously a sad and lonely person who can only mock the TLM every chance he or she can and it shows how much the power of the TLM is to live in thier minds, so just pray for this individual who posts on here ranting about the TLM.
I know for a fact that many of the people who want the TLM hate the Novus Ordo. I lurk at a music director’s website forum sometimes, and the musicians there who prefer the TLM deride the Novus Ordo all the time and say that it’s inherently defective.
Believe me, the TLMers only want the TLM. They will go to SSPX or in schism if it comes down to choosing between Novus Ordo and TLM.
A lot of people in today’s world do not know that the priest, trained, ordained and living a holy life, consecrated to God– is our “Alter Christus” at the holy Altar of God, acting in the place of Christ. The priest is like a “middleman,” binging to us Christ in all the holy Sacraments. He needs to face God– not the people– to do his work at the altar, without distractions. He can face the people as necessary, for the Mass readings and sermon. Etc. Otherwise, he needs to prayerfully face God.It was a terrible shock, the first day of the New Mass, facing the people, at the strange, new Protestant-style, “table altar,” as well as other new things– and no altar boys. The congregation at Mass does not need a bunch of “stuff” to do, or “roles to play.” They need to just prayerfully assist at Mass, which is being done by the priest for us all. It is very prayerful, very holy, because Christ actually cones down from Heaven to us! Those are my thoughts.
The purpose of the holy Mass is to help our souls to get to Heaven. It is very holy and sacred. Christ is actually present on the altar, at Mass. The Mass was given to us by Christ, at the Last Supper, to continue His sacred work on earth, after dying on the Cross to save us from our sins. He gave us the holy Mass to sanctify us and prepare us for Heaven. The Mass must never be misused, or abused, for “entertainment,” to promote worldly or political causes, or for “personal enjoyment.”
I grew up with the TLM and was an altar server prior to the liturgical reforms of the 1960’s. Personally, I do not care for the Extraordinary Form, however, I am not opposed to allowing people access to it if that is their preference. My experience with people who prefer the EF is that they are dismissive of the OF and the current pope both of which I find offensive. In the Sacramento diocese where I reside it seems that the folk or guitar Mass has been banned which is unfortunate. If various forms of the Mass are going to be permitted, then I think folk, jazz and even rock masses should be allowed.
I would like to see a kazoo Mass, myself.
I too grew up with the TLM in the 60s. I remember the Masses being profoundly sacred and reverent. I now attend the NO Mass regularly, but was curious about a TLM offered in one of the parishes in my diocese. I went there and it was packed. Granted, people had come from all over the diocese to attend, but I was nevertheless impressed by the turnout. I found the Latin Mass deeply moving in its celebration of the sacred mysteries. I think your broad generalization about people who might prefer the Latin mass to the NO and are dismissive of Pope Francis is misguided and unfair. I know many people who now love Pope Francis but were also disdainful of Pope Benedict, and people like myself who attend the NO Mass but also cherish the Latin Mass because we can. Don’t be so quick to judge.
You will always find Catholics who like or dislike a priest, prelate or pope. That is completely normal. I greatly dislike “Gay Apologist” Jesuit Fr. James Martin, a papal favorite, for very good reasons. As for Vatican II, from Day One, in the late 1960s, when our pastor explained to us that now, we are all “on our own,” to “make our own, free decisions,” regardless of the Church’s teachings– don’t call him anymore, for advice! — make your own decisions, on everything— on something like missing Mass, and on all major issues, like birth control, sex before Marriage, a woman’s personal decision to have an illegal abortion (at that time, it was illegal in the U.S.), smoking marijuana, annulments, separations and divorce, obeying the military draft, being either a soldier or Conscientious Objector (C.O.) during the Vietnam War, even deciding to run off to Canada (most drafted boys went into the military, but many didn’t agree with the Vietnam War) — and a bunch of other stuff– the pastor told everyone, to “make up their own minds, by their own conscience.” This garbage was all taken mainly from a Council document, “Dignitatis Humanae,” which affirms religious liberty, etc. etc.– but in my opinion, it goes way too far. Acceptance and practice of the Catholic Faith requires respect for it– and faithfulness to it, it is a big responsibility to God! With Catholic individuals deemed “free to “decide for themselves” (in the light of true Church teaching– but which many may reject) as well as, potentially, Catholic clerics, prelates, nuns, Catholic schools, hospitals, colleges and seminaries “deciding on things, individually, by their own consciences”— you are going to have a runaway train, going off-track, falling and crashing, extremely destructive! And whole Catholic countries will soon be affected. Morality will be a huge problem– a family, a community, a city, and a whole country always has to keep a vigilant watch over morality, or you will have huge problems with sin and crime! Watch out! And guess what? It did happen! All of this did tragically contribute to a “runaway, crashing train”– the fall of morality, worldwide– and today, Catholic-dominant countries are no more! Most are ravaged wuth legalized sin– promiscuity, illegitimate children, abortion, birth control, gay “marriage,” pornography, divorce, drugs, euthanasia, etc. etc. Human nature really needs strong (Catholic) teaching and guidance– and good laws, and good, solid controls on sin and crime. Parents also at that time, were worried about their kids, and worried about the Catholic schools, and nuns “trying out” weird “new” things… no, you can’t run a Church by allowing everyone to “do as they please”…mistaking that for a “well-formed conscience.” Do not be naive about that. There are lots of Catholics — including Catholic clergy– who do not agree with Pope Francis, or who did not like Pope Benedict, because of one reason or another. That is normal. And it is normal for those who attend ANY kind of Mass, the Novus Ordo, or the old Latin Mass— to have their own opinions on both Vatican II and popes and prelates, and likes/dislikes of different priests. I bet you have your own views, your own ideas, and likes/dislikes, too! Lastly, I am a musician, highly trained in Catholic Sacred Music– and I believe that the holy Mass— all forms of the holy Mass– require, and deserve, only holy, reverent, proper Sacred Music, fit for the Catholic Mass– with correct theology, too. Canon Law also contains this requirement. Just as we were taught, long ago, in Music School. The Mass is not a personal religious event, it is very holy and sacred, before God. Christ is truly present on the altar. Secular, worldly musical styles do not belong in church. Just like, women should not wear jeans, or spaghetti strap tank tops with no bras, or blouses with very low necklines, to church– very rude, coarse, inappropriate. And I sometimes see men (family men, husbands and fathers) in church, even serving as lectors and Novus Ordo Mass Eucharistic Ministers– disrespectfully clad in crummy shorts and t-shirts, and sneakers– highly inappropriate. Bad example, for kids. Catholics need a lot of catechetical training, before they come to Mass, to understand the Mass, and correctly practice their religious faith. That is very important. Those are some of my thoughts.
For 60 years now we have heard the same rubbish over and over again, that Vatican II did not want to do away with Latin, Gregorian chant, organ music, rip out high altars, rip out communion rails, tear down statues of saints, rip out confessionals, yet all of this HAS happened yet I have NEVER heard Rome or any defender of the Novus Ordo explain how this was allowed. The Novus Ordo is a man made new Mass with altar girls, lay lectors, Protestant hymns, a Protestant dinner table, drums, guitars, bongos, hand holding, kiss of peace, clapping, clowns, lay women and men handing out Holy Communion, gospel music, rock, Native American music, Jazz, giant puppets, this is a complete and total differant Mass that the Traditional Latin Mass that was in force for 1,500 years, so do not insult us by saying it is not a NEW Mass which it most certainly is. Remember you were once what we were 60 years ago, you have changed we have not. Don’t tell us what Mass we have to attend and that we are schismatics who are you to even judge us? Please by all means keep your New Mass with its felt banners, altar girls, kiss of peace, hand holding, ghastly music, dancing nuns with incense bowls, giant puppets, clowns, women handing out Holy Communion, immodest dress, and the list goes on. You have the Cathedrals and the churches we have the Faith, so please leave us alone yet we know you will not for you fear and loath the TLM because it is truly the Mass of All Times, and like Pope Benedict the XVI said the Church will be smaller in size but we will have the Faith.
Ask Vigano how that attitude worked out for him.
Yep!
With the New Springtime came the total collapse of the Roman Catholic Church in Europe, case in point the Paris Olympics with the disgusting depiction of The Last Supper of Our Lord with drag queens at the table, the beheading of Queen Marie Antoinnette with blood on display holding her own head, France once called the Eldest Daughter of The Church is now so depraved and like most of Europe has been invaded by Muslim immigrants who point to the fact that see: Even the Europeans mock their own Christian faith. The last time I went to Germany I was shocked by the empty Catholic Churches, even the cathedrals are for the most part tourist attractions, for the Germans no longer believe in God be it Catholics or Luthererns. So called Catholic areas such as Bavaria and the Rhineland with the stunning Gothic cathedral in Colonge are empty shells. On the other hand I watched as thousands of Muslim Turks and Syrian men prayed in the streets of Berlin, Frankfurt, Hamburg and other cities and I thought to myself my God where am I Europe or the Middle East? Islam tried to conquer Europe by the sword hundreds of years ago and failed because Europe had the faith, now its only a matter of time that Islam will be the dominate religion in Europe simply by sheer birthrate, Muslims in Europe have between 6 and 10 children per family, White Europeans stand at about 1 to 2 children per family at that rate its clear what fate awaits Europe in the not to distant future. So when you mock and chastise the Traditional Latin Mass just remember what Vatican II did to Europe, either on purpose or not Rome has destroyed the Christian culture of Europe.
Hey, well said, my man.
Possible Francis reply: “Who am I to budge?”
Just letting you know Vigano has guts like it or not. He is what you call a real man! He condemned the perversion that is the Paris Olympics but not a peep out of Rome, no shocker there.
Vigano did not follow up with the checking up on reports about McCarrick, which is what the Holy See charged him to do. He dropped the ball on that, and then started to unjustly and wrongly blame Pope Francis with shielding McCarrick, when it was he, Vigano, who shirked his responsibilities. Talk about deflection!
So, don’t talk to us about the alleged “virtues” of Vigano.
He’s got no virtue of perseverance to stay faithful to the Church. How’s that for “guts”?
No one with an ounce of reality and genuine integrity would fall into schism and get himself excommunicated.
He’s careless of his own salvation, and extremely foolish.
The Mass is man-made. It has always been that way, and it changes over time.
In 190 AD the Mass went from Greek to Latin. Imagine the uproar.
In 323 AD the Council of Nicaea changed some of the Mass. Imagine the uproar.
In 1545-63 the Council of Trent changed the Mass. Imagine the uproar.
In the 1970s the Mass changed again to the vernacular. Oh, the uproar.
In 2000+ it will change again. Imagine the uproar.
Back before 190 AD, folks gathered to read the writings of the Apostles, pray the prayers of the people, and distribute bread and wine, in remembrance.
Change happens!
Christians have never met to “distribute bread and wine, in remembrance” but to participate in the one august sacrifice on Calvary in an un-bloody manner and eat His flesh and drink His blood. He said “whosever eats My body and drinks My flesh shall have eternal life and not die.” I believe Jesus, not theologians.