The following comes from a Jan. 30 story on the website of the Cardinal Newman Society.
Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone of San Francisco, who recently announced the formation of an archdiocesan office to ensure the Catholic identity of Catholic high schools, emphasized the need for schools to focus on proper faculty formation and hiring in order to effectively hand on the Catholic faith to students, according to the National Catholic Register.
“I would like to focus on what is uniquely Catholic and instill a sense of confidence in what the Church teaches,” the archbishop reportedly said.
Archbishop Cordileone stressed “the need for careful attention to teacher formation and hiring of faculty,” which are “critical elements of [a] Catholic-identity initiative,” the Register reported.
“We hear stories of children going through 12 years of Catholic education and then they leave the Church,” Archbishop Cordileone reportedly remarked. “Somehow, we are not instilling a sense of Catholic identity in many of our students.”
As a solution, the archbishop hopes that the new initiative will “strengthen the transmission of Catholic faith and culture to the next generation” without relaxing religious standards, the Register wrote.
Melanie Morey, who has been hired to lead the initiative, will reportedly visit the archdiocesan schools and help to provide them with a “baseline assessment of their Catholic identity.” Then the schools will regularly report their progress to the Office of Catholic Identity and cooperate in achieving the expected standards, the Register reported.
Archbishop Cordileone also highlighted the importance of effectively teaching the Catholic intellectual tradition. The Archbishop reportedly suggested “incorporating great music, art and literature [and] celebrating the Church’s contribution to science and scheduling Eucharistic adoration” as integral factors in promoting “a Catholic educational environment.”
And if “the school is going to further its Catholic mission, those entrusted with furthering its mission cannot be acting against it,” he told the Register.
In late December, Morey met with high school administrators within the Archdiocese to answer questions and discuss the Office’s goals. The meeting was reportedly well-received and generated fruitful discussions, indicating a positive start to Archbishop Cordileone’s Catholic identity initiative.
PRAISE BE TO GOD!!!
What a true Shepherd the Archbishop is.
I would also suggest at just looking at Marin Catholic as the model, they are just outstanding. I saw it at the Walk for Life West Coast, the joy of the sisters (and fully in habit) which spills over to the students! It brought tears to my eyes.
Catholic schools fail because aside from being owned by a diocese, they are indistinguishable from public schools. Why pay tuition when you can get the same dreadful education for free, right?
We will see what all this means. It is wonderful that Abp. Cordileone has been kind to Star of the Sea regarding the TLM and a change in altar boy policy. However, the Abp. has completely failed to address the obvious homosexual lifestyle enabling that results from MHR failing to advise homosexual practitioners that what they are doing is not Catholic, is a mortal sin, and that they should not present themselves for communion unless practicing chastity, and after going to confession.
Also, the new Catholic school initiative must do far more than teach art, and chant; it must teach the Catholic Faith, including all the hard doctrines. Many (?most?) Catholic schools are populated by non-Catholics, or students that, if Catholic, are nominal in the Faith and, out of ignorance (their own and their parents) insist on challenging things like abortion rights, sexual rights of all kinds, and homosexual marriage. If Abp. Cordileone does not do this then he will not be doing anything. Catholic schools should graduate thinking Catholics, not empty-headed People Magazine Catholics, who are swayed by whatever a celebrity says about these issues.
You have much work to do, Abp. Cordileone. Better to ultimately close these schools, if you are graduating, in the name of the Catholic Church, students who despise the Church and what it stands for. Start with the Catholic high schools in your jurisdiction, this is where you will need to redefine what they are being taught and the direction of their Faith.
I think it starts with using orthodox books, hiring orthodox teachers and administrators, carefully overseeing the schools to make sure they remain faithful and converting the parents and getting them involved in the education. I think you have to do one school at a time; getting in a solid teaching order is always helpful. I am of the mindset, however, that most Catholic schools today are not Catholic.
I might add that admissions should be restricted to “Catholic” children. Also, graduation should include a test to demonstrate the child’s knowledge of the Catholic Faith, Doctrine and Traditions.
Excellent posts Carol and gravy! Also It really helps if the solid teaching order is solidly united on certain issues such as admitting the adopted children of homosexuals to Catholic schools. This can send out extremely damaging mixed messages to the faithful when there is not unity within the order. Through no fault of their own, innocent children of homosexuals who have been baptized Catholic could receive private instruction in the faith and this may potentially one day lead to the conversion of the individuals who selfishly chose to further their own personal agenda by harming the innocence of children. Did these individuals send their adopted children to a Catholic school because they were banking on the new wave of *quality gifts and Catholic- lite instruction* ? Even if the full truth was being taught, how conflicting and cruel to have children inevitably discover that the individuals who adopted them were in reality mocking and railing against God’s laws. How unbelievably cruel and selfish. Playing make-believe house to validate one’s illusions at the expense of innocent children. Two men wearing weddings bands sitting next to each other as a couple at the PTA meetings and back to school night at a Catholic school is wrong. When a bishop sends a letter to a Catholic school commending the Catholic school for allowing this, it is not a sign of charity. It is a sign that he (the bishop) has also lost his way. Especially when the same bishop has sent out memos to his own diocesan priests supporting homosexual domestic partnerships.
continued…..
continued In response to Carol and gravy
Pope Benedict XVI wrote, “Allowing children to be adopted by persons living in such unions would actually mean doing violence to these children, in the sense that their condition of dependency would be used to place them in an environment that is not conducive to their full human development.”
No one wants to see innocent children suffer for the sins of the individuals who ignored God’s natural law. These individuals never considered the terrible injustice that they were doing to these children. Society has become increasingly diabolically disoriented. The homosexual agenda even within the Church seeks to call those who speak the truth haters when in reality it was the hatred for Gods laws that compelled them to even resort to using innocent children as a deceitful back door method bargaining tool. God will hold accountable each and every politician, judge and individual who assisted to facilitated these adoptions and adoption laws which would have been entirely unthinkable at one time.
continued
Pope Benedict XVI wrote, “Allowing children to be adopted by persons living in such unions would actually mean doing violence to these children, in the sense that their condition of dependency would be used to place them in an environment that is not conducive to their full human development.”
No one wants to see innocent children suffer for the sins of the individuals who ignored God’s natural law. These individuals never considered the terrible injustice that they were doing to these children. Society has become increasingly diabolically disoriented. The homosexual agenda even within the Church seeks to call those who speak the truth haters when in reality it was the hatred for Gods laws that compelled them to even resort to using innocent children as a deceitful back door method bargaining tool. God will hold accountable each and every politician, judge and individual who assisted to facilitated these adoptions and adoption laws which would have been entirely unthinkable at one time.
Well said Catherine!
There goes Catherine, all homosexual obsessed as ever, changing the topic once again to homosexuality.
…and as usual, Catherine was well spoken and on target. That said, with the filter you use to excuse your living situation, I cannot help but think you the one who is homosexual obsessed.
Thank you both Nicholas and Ann Malley!
That’s right YFC and thank you very much for the assistance in allowing everyone to read the important reason why.
Taken from: Fr. Dariusz Oko’s major article: “With the Pope against the Homoheresy”
“The lengths to which militant homosexuals in cassocks can go can be observed in the behaviour of the particularly “liberal” and “open-minded” Archbishop Rembert Weakland, who ruled the diocese of Milwaukee, U.S.A., in the years 1977-2002. He openly admitted to being gay and to having had many partners in life. Throughout the term of his office – for 25 years – he continuously opposed the Pope and the Holy See on many issues, particularly criticizing and rejecting the teaching of the Magisterium on homosexuality. He supported and protected active gays in his diocese, helping them avoid liability for sexual offences they repeatedly committed. At leaving his office, he defrauded about a half million dollars to support his ex-partner.
continued
Taken from: Fr. Dariusz Oko’s major article: “With the Pope against the Homoheresy”
“One of the most influential people in the Church of his time, Marcial Maciel Degollado, founder of the Legion of Christ, turned out to be bisexual and to have perpetrated serious sexual offences against many members and underage students in his own congregation, including even his own son…
All four went entirely unpunished for a long time, despite many complaints and charges against them sent to Rome for years. Only direct contact with the Pope or publications in the media finally helped. Otherwise, everything was blocked at lower levels of local or by the Vatican hierarchy. It was similar in many other cases. For instance, several years passed before Bishops Patrick Ziemann of Santa Rosa in California (1999), Juan Carlos Maccarone of Santiago del Estero in Argentina (2005), Georg Müller of Trondheim and Oslo in Norway (2009), Raymond John Lahey of Antigonish in Canada (2009), Roger Vangheluw of Bruges, in Belgium (2010), John C. Favalora of Miami (2010) and Anthony J. O’Connell of Palm Beach in Florida (2010) were removed from office for active engagement in[, or cover-up of,] homosexual paedophilia or ephebophilia. Similar steps had to be taken with respect to many other bishops who concealed or covered up such offences. The same applied to many, sometimes very influential priests.”
https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/02/fr-dariusz-okos-major-article-with-pope.html
Catherine: All while being “in communion” with the Catholic Church! Then the Church and others(one in particular) punish and call faithful Catholics schismatics and heretics when all they want to do is to hold onto the traditions of the Church. What is wrong with this picture?
…but too many believe that as long as nobody says something, RR, it isn’t true. Namely that there are those inside the Church who, while having the moniker – full communion, no longer have the Faith. As if ‘full communion’ were the goal instead of the Faith. They take the taxi for the sake of the taxi ride, but with no destination.
RR, homosexual sex, schism and heresy are ALL mortal sins. There are others, too.
RR,
When someone is doing what Abeca is doing you have to consider the facts that Abeca’s dear friend, (the poster named k) tried to silence CCD and CMTV. Abeca often even criticized CCD for reporting on particular stories. This made no sense, especially due to the crisis that it taking place. Abeca is also suggesting that CCD is fear mongering.
Abeca’s posts are always followed by an “anony” poster praising her post. Perhaps they are even the same individual. Abeca has not answered the question “Do you support Pope Benedict XVI’s statement that homosexuality is incompatible with the priesthood.” Abeca’s close pilot fish friend k, (who is now k-anonymous) undermined the priests such as Father Guarnizo and also Father Rodriguez. Abeca criticized CCD for certain stories long before Ann Malley ever posted.
The bottom line is 2 Thessalonians 11:15
11] That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity. [12] But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved of God, for that God hath chosen you first fruits unto salvation, in sanctification of the spirit, and faith of the truth: [13] Whereunto also he hath called you by our gospel, unto the purchasing of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. [14] Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.
pilot fish is a very apt description.
As is well documented by much literature and on various blog sites, such as recent comments by Bishop Athanasius Schneider, “We are in the fourth great crisis of the Church”. (See, the UK, “Catholic Herald”, dated 06/06/2014). A central focus of this crisis (but not the sole focus) is that of sexual ethics: abortion, adultery (the remarried/non-annuled communion issue), fornication (freedom to engage in sex without responsibilty; living together without marriage), and, of course, homosexual sex.
In fact, “Your Fellow Catholic”, it is your own people who force this issue to the fore. HomoFascists rant about their rights, everything from being able to counsel and educate kids in school, to being free to have sexual partners of their own sex, to civilly marry, to adopt, and all the rest.
Catholic schools are ground zero for Satan to try to advance his free sex agenda. Team up with Planned Parenthood to torture logic and bring the “joy” of sex to kids at a young age, and then abortion rights, and all the homosexual rights you can think of. School kids and parents rage (and you know this, don’t you) against “orthodox” Catholic speakers who say things like: no communion for the divorced/non-annulment people, no sex until a man-woman marriage, and never any homosexual sex. We all know that it is hard to see the truth in this for you, but it must be taught.
Mister Christopher I agree with you on a point, though I would frame it a bit differently. Yes, gay people have stood up and demanded to be treated fairly and without discrimination. Who can blame us? Even the Church says that gay people should not be treated to unjust discrimination. It’s actual practice, however, is quite a bit different.
Notre Dame High School has removed its Little Black Book of Teen Resources, which listed every Planned Parenthood in the country amongst other unsavory organizations, from its website. Now it needs to come in line with church teaching and remove “Pride” see below – which unbelievably is still listed as a counseling resource for teens, on the school’s website. I don’t think that helps strengthen the school’s Catholic identity. The only church approved ministry is “Courage?”
LGBTQ issues
800-246-PRIDE or 800-246-7743
LYRIC (Lavendar Youth Recreation and Information Center) http://www.lyric.org
Free and anonymous hotline provides peer support, health and sexuality information and referrals.
I am glad to read that they are doing this.
I would love to see the assessment criteria.
Hogwash! This exercise is an ineffectual waste of time.
If they really cared about creating real Catholics form tomorrow they would not wait until High School, but instead begin to provide the needed formation in the earliest years…Adoration Holy Mass the Rosary to elementary school children….but someone is too afraid to “buck the system” as it presently lies.
You can’t educate children in a pagan environment for 9 years and then expect to turn it around in high school.
Jim and Carol, You both are right:
https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/1452-catholic-schools-week-2015-can-catholic-schools-become-catholic-again
Catholic schools are not a pagan environment, although they differ greatly from school to school and from teacher to teacher on the quality of Catholic education. Our school has the Rosary on special occasions and Mass 3 times a week. Eucharistic Adoration is held in the Church; it is up to the parent to take their children there.
It is nice to know that there are a few decent Catholic schools out there.
Do they teach the Faith from Sacred Scripture and the CCC as age appropriate ?
When we were kids we learned the 10 Commandments, Precepts of the Church, why God made us, etc., etc., all by age 7 when we made our first Confession and Communion.
Is this the case at your school ?
10 commandments-yes.
Bible stories.
Precepts of the Church-yes but not as a list.
Don’t know on the why God made us if you mean “to know, love, and serve Him in this world and to be happy with Him in the next.” I think yes, but maybe not as a formula that is memorized.
Much emphasis is placed on teaching the children that they are not a random accident of evolution, that they are created and wanted and loved by God and that God has a purpose for them. That their family and church are the means through which God loves them and tells them how to live as Jesus lived.
I think a women , especially if she is a mother, is better listened to, and also has more insights , intuition regarding children.
A couple – husband and wife , would do good also.
And why not – grand parents or single uncles and aunts.
…what you point out, Jenny, is true and why it is critical to the success of ‘Catholic’ schools to have informed and faithful Catholic parents at home. Both mother and father.
Parents are the primary teachers of *their* children and cannot push off that responsibility on the schools and expect success. After all, children are grand imitators by design and if they see Mom and Dad playing hypocrite, most often they will do the same – wink, wink – despite what they learn at school. Much like we cannot hide from God, parents cannot hide the real lessons they teach their children.
The same scenario is repeated within dioceses as the “teaching” says one thing, but the practice allows for another. Whether it be for “pastoral” reasons or not makes little difference. The lesson of ignoring what the Church teaches is the same much like the fallout – hypocrisy and open dissent.
“We hear stories of children going through 12 years of Catholic education and then they leave the Church,”
This is mainly caused by lack of education in the Faith.
Sacred Scripture and the CCC must be required texts for grades 10, 11 & 12.
Code of Canon Law, and GIRM should be generally reviewed.
Far too many Catholics of all ages have never read or fully been exposed to these Books and Documents of the Catholic Faith, and thus causing ignorance.
Due to lousy homilies each Sunday that never speak about:
Sin, Death, Judgment, Heaven, Purgatory or Hell – – – , once a student has left Catholic high school, the majority have no further religious education for the rest of their lives. – And when they do, it may or may not be accurate – depending on the formation or beliefs of the individual Priest(s).
Sacred Scripture and the CCC will ground them for their entire lives. They will know where they can find the truths of our Faith.
One reason kids stop going to Church-no one is making them go. They never went for any other reason than that their parents said they had to.
Another reason-they don’t believe any of it and they never did.
They witness so much hypocritical behavior from so-called Christians that it turns them away from the Church.
Evil in the world convinces them that no good God would allow it so they conclude there must not be a God.
They still believe in God but they do not think it is necessary to go to Mass.
They become influenced by others who do not believe.
They have committed serious sin and do not have the courage to confess.
Stories of hell and punishment are one of the reasons they reject the Faith.. It is too threatening and/or they are so narcissistic they don’t think they have any sins. This is also why so many evangelicals leave their Churches after leaving high school.
Why people stay-they really love God and they believe God loves them. They want to be among others who believe. They believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament and want to receive Him. They really feel like they are receiving grace from God during Mass and prayer. They love their fellow man and the Church provides them with ways to devote themselves to helping their neighbor. But honestly, it is a great grace from God to always stay in the Church.
Anonymous, baloney.
The reason kids quit going to Church is because their parents have never been taught accurately and fully either.
Neither the parents or teens were ever taught it is a Mortal Sin to miss Mass on Sunday either. Just ask them.
We have lost 2 generations – the parents of today’s teens and well as the teens themselves because of Bishops and Priests not teaching the entire truth.
Most of today’s “Catholic” teens have never even heard the truths of mortal sin, or Hell. All they hear in Church is love, love, love like some sit in.
Just what do you think your are doing, Anonymous – trying to insure that the truth will never be taught ?
Jesus said if you love Him you will keep His Commandments – and that means all of them.
He also said many will not be saved.
He preached more about Hell than anyone else in the Bible.
Jesus is not a liar. Or do you say He is, like Fr. Robert Barron does?
We will agree that many sin because they see the bad examples of heretics like Pelosi, Brown, Biden, Kerry, Cuomo, and other bad Catholics.
Those evil Priests who abused children did not help along with their Bishops who assisted in hiding them – like Bernardin and Mahony, Weakland, etc.
JOSE, thank you for your reply. I agree with you that kids and parents have a lot to learn about the Faith. But I know lots of people who were taught that missing Mass is a mortal sin, who stopped attending Mass for reasons such as “got out of the habit” or “moved and just didn’t go to church after that.” I know others who left the Church for other Christian churches because they believed in keeping holy the Lord’s Day, but lost confidence in the Catholic Church’s teachings and preferred the teachings of heresy. Others left the Church to join schismatic sects or quit attending because “it’s not the same Church I grew up in.” I know plenty of people who left and rejected the entire teaching of the Church, not just the mortal sin of missing Mass but even the existence of God.
As for your question as to whether I want to ensure that the truth will never be taught- no. I am one of the parish loudmouths who speak up when the truth is not taught (even if the error is coming from Father Barron.) And I am one of the busybodies who when I hear someone say that they used to be Catholic, asks them why they left the Church. And invites them to return..
Thank you Jose for your great response! Anonymous, really? “Stories of hell and punishment are one of the reasons they reject the Faith..”?!!!! Where have YOU been?!!!!!!!!
I have been at a Catholic Church.
There are very few people who want fire and brimstone.
If you want it, you can find it. Be sure to only apply it to yourself or you will be guilty of disobeying God.
My recollection of sermons before Vatican II and directly after- no one ever preached about hell and damnation. Mostly they talked about money and the needs of the Church.
Many people lost confidence in the Church when it “changed” after Vatican II. The relaxing of the rule of not eating meat on Fridays (which we are still asked to do voluntarily unless we substitute another penance) seems to me to be one of the most devastating decisions the US bishops made. In many people’s minds, it became “The Church can change it’s mind on that which was a mortal sin” and so anything that the Church had taught was a mortal sin became less certainly wrong. When people were raised believing that you would go to hell for eating meat on Fridays and that changed, it devastated the moral authority of the Church for many and people began to use their own sense of what was right and wrong. That generation which was raised to believe in mortal sin became timid about teaching it to the next generation. The publication of the CCC was a great help in giving people confidence again in the Church’s teaching. Priests have played a major part in restoring the teaching of the Faith (though not all) Bishops are responsible to see that their priests are properly trained to deal with situations that trip up many people. Bishops are responsible to ensure catechists have the resources they need to transmit the faith and to ensure the fidelity of the catechists themselves.
Most of the things that people do not like and “changed” after Vatican II were special INDULTS that were applied for by the US Bishops Conference (under the goals of Cardinal Joseph Bernardin and his ilk).
An INDULT is special permission granted from the Vatican but not the norm for the worldwide Church.
The worst INDULT allowed in the USA was that people are no longer required to Kneel when receiving the Body and Blood of our Lord. (Standing and in the Hand which due to the insistence of the Bishops at that time became the norm for the USA and some other Countries.)
There was no indult to remove the Altar Rails, the US Bishops just did it so people would find kneeling before the Lord and getting up more difficult.
Ps 95.6 ” O come, let us worship and bow down, let us kneel before the Lord, our Maker! ”
and
Philippians 2:10
” so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,”
This lack of reverence has led to today where High Ranking Clergy like Baldiserri, Wuerl, Cupich, Kasper, Abp Forte, etc., want to commit Sacrilege by distributing Holy Communion to those choosing to continue living in mortal sin.
I wish we could get a list of ALL of the INDULTS in the USA, and request reversing many of them via US Bishops and the Vatican.
(Some indults come with expiration dates, but no one checks this.)
The alleged “Failure” of Catholic Schools – at least in passing on Understanding of the Faith, if not reinforcement / witness to those inclined favorably towards becoming a Believing Practicing Catholic – requires over 250 words just to introduce.
The popularity of Catholic Education amongst those not of the Faith, yet able to afford tuition – often beyond the reach of ‘migs’ (*Members in Good Standing) – is not only based on a reputation of Academic Superiority – but also ‘Discipline’ – so often seen as lacking in the free public schools.
Such ‘Discipline’ was traditionally accomplished platoons of Nuns (depicted as habit wearing boot camp drill instructors – wielding yardsticks bigger than baseball bats) – with God not just on their side, but actually available on call for direct condemnation of miscreants before the flock.
Having experienced various forms of Education AND Training myself over the decades, I am deeply concerned about the Future of education in general (essentially now partisan political indoctrination by Caesar)…
– And the Escalating Attack on Catholic Education that incorporates both Morality and Rational / Reasoned Fact Based Logic to achieve a balance often lacking in Academentia.
Laws such as senator Mark “Kiddie Porn King” Leno’s AB-48, which Forbid Facts or Discussion in school that fails to “Reflect Favorably” on the entire Gaystapo Agenda – will soon be used along with other Thought Crime legislation passed by a legislature not fit to pass gas & their turkey baster creationist Courts…
To Produce an Orwellian Pogrom as Insane as it is Anti-Catholic
Academentia has become the ‘Advertiser of Choice’ – whether instructed in school using (thus becoming familiar with) one company’s product versus another, or through a ‘Common Core’ of Partisan Political Ideology designed to make “Thought Crime” (Most Authentic Catholic Teaching now qualifies) – a Forgotten Nothing.
The constant ‘Formation’ of new consumers & political cadre – loyal to the party line and ignorant of any contradictions (like Catholic Teaching & its own rational, reasonable fact based intellectually & morally valid basis), is SSADly an increasing priority in ‘school’ at all levels.
Further, even in the Catholic Schools, it remains Boys who are targeted for most Animus – and They Know It. I once taught a section of 4th graders for the last two months of the semester – because their Radical Gaystapo Activist ‘teacher’ eventually got the boot. Those Boys clearly described a Pogrom straight from the Twysted Syster Playbook in ‘Womyn’z Studiez’ – just from their class experience.
Few Men are involved in grade school education (mostly coaches / MS types) and one of the most common observations shared by them is the Hen-House’ nature of the Faculty & system. Not everywhere, but in Far Too Many places.
It is not just that Boys aren’t being challenged – but are rather being challenged to be Ashamed of being Male…
– As in the brutish testosterone poisoned pig oppressor whose denunciation is the primary Tenure Track to more advanced areas of ‘learning’ – where allegedly ‘enlightenment’, education and Enumeration are all PHD – Piled Higher & Deeper.
Hooray for the efforts of Archbishop Cordileone! Catholic restoration efforts are much better spent on schools than on – for example – bashing Most Holy Redemer, no matter how popular that would be here. Managing is about effectively focusing your efforts on the most important tasks, not merely reacting to the endless provocations that present themselves.
Catholic schools have been in decline for decades, even prior to Vatican II, and one reasons is because Catholics have not been producing orthodox textbooks. Recently, these new Catholic textbooks have been enjoying increasing ecclesiastical support, giving reason for Hope that efforts to reclaim the schools are not limited to San Francisco. I encourage homeschoolers and others interested to investigate them. http://www.catholictextbookproject.com
Brian S. Thank you for the link. I see they are seeking donations to continue developing these books. https://www.catholictextbookproject.com/about/help/
There are several references on the web that discuss excellence in Catholic Schools and what the standards and outcomes should be. One, and it is only one reference is: https://www.catholicschoolstandards.org/files/Catholic_School_Standards_03-12.pdf
If, indeed, the Catholic school system has room for improving it Catholicity, then the Archbishop is making a great first step. Closing the schools, as some have suggested, only deprives good students of a good education. Setting standards and ensuring that they are met involves a long well thought out process. Faculty have to be trained or retrained, parent expectations need to be strengthened, and community expectations developed. This could take years in a city like San Francisco and a few less years in other dioceses. A simple example is the development of standards expected of new faculty and the process by which they are hired. Not only do teachers have to meet Archdiocese standards, but they must be hired in a manner that meets state and federal hiring standards. School leaders may need retraining in interviewing skills, writing job expectations, contract enforcement, and a number of other areas. With forty plus schools, it may take a while. What if a school doesn’t meet the established standards of working with parents to teach them how to train their children in the faith?
BO Says: “A simple example is the development of standards expected of new faculty and the process by which they are hired. Not only do teachers have to meet Archdiocese standards, but they must be hired in a manner that meets state and federal hiring standards.”
Of course the two are at severe odds when it comes to pandering to issues like the sick hatreds and vile perversions of the Gaystapo Agenda.
When Judges are Forbidden to even Volunteer time with the Boy Scouts – despite the scouts inexcusable and ultimately fatal ‘partial pandering’, then the Gaystapo will Dictate Who and What gets ‘taught’ in the Catholic schools too.
The only real alternative is to Recognizing Catholic Education & Teaching as a MINISTRY of the Church – and completely revamp the system to avoid the Anti-Catholic ’employment’ scams that fill our democrat legislature and their turkey baster creationist courts.
Try Defending the Catholic Magisterium before the likes of Theresa Stewart – former city attorney for Sodom by the Sea who attacked Marriage & the Church Directly (and big Dyke March enabler) – who is the latest CA Supreme Court appointee by Moonbeam.
Justice will not emirate from any of these forums – and it is time to Abandon the Cowardly Farce that it might, and that We as a Church can survive within their ever more Evil confines.
I realize that facts are not your strong suit, Counselor McDermott, but Stewart was appointed to the District Court of Appeals, not the California Supreme Court. Secular Judges, like Stewart, are not the appropriate place to defend the Catholic Magisterium. “Emirate” is not a verb, at least not in English. Should I continue??
GIGO Vs. GooGhoul
I submit that the true Paradigm Shift in Education will be Distance Education / Data Access & Self Correcting E-Drills – Mixed with two types of physical interaction.
One will be ‘Classroom / Forum’ – where students gather in real time (or certain time frames – like ‘one chess move a day’) – during which Live Professors are available to go beyond canned lectures (saved on line) – and actually guide the discussion forward…
– Ever Seeking what is otherwise known as the “Ah-Hah – now I get it” moment – which is IMNPHO the pinnacle of ‘education’ – when the student actually teaches themselves using clues highlighted by the ‘teacher’.
Physical Education is equally important – but need Accomplish More than just Play (*Which is also vitally important). PE Class should range from the design & creation of structures for play – to he games / sports and rules / realities of them.
‘Older’ workplace qualifications like Good Memories may be challenged by easy access to Large AI / Data Interfaces – but Known Facts have stubbornly hung around before hackers and censors achieved such power to ‘erase’ them. Besides, well trained memories have many uses.
SSADly – Much information control today resembles the1930s – when by “Fundamental Transformation” of Germany the Gaystapo finally seized the apparatus of civil power (courts, police…) And They Become ‘the law’
Hence the term GIGO:
“Garbage in = Garbage Out”
A Watchword for all ‘official education’ in this Age of Abomination.
*BTW Check Your Own Sources & No Metaphysical Bootsrrapping
Beginning with kindergarten, and ending up doing college graduate work, I always attended Catholic schools. Until I entered the seminary, I was taught solid, Catholic morals and doctrine. When I switched seminaries for theology, I was once again educated by sound and orthodox teachers. Today, which basically began in the 1960’s, Catholic teaching slowly but surely disappeared from the Catholic schools, and now there is practically NO difference from the education a child receives from the parochial or public school. The good sisters taught us, NOT FOR PAY, but out of the love of God. There are no more nuns, so the laity are teachers, and most of them know nothing about the faith. The only remedy is home schools, which seem to be doing a great job. Knowledge is power, and because not much is learned today in Catholic schools, it is safe to say most students are weak.
For the Catholic Church to truly carry out Christ’s holy mission to sanctify and save souls on earth, she needs desperately to get rid of most of Vatican II, and make a total return to her traditional Faith and Morals, as well as to both the Traditional Latin Mass, and maybe a very lovely, reverent “Ordinary Form” Novus Ordo Mass, as it seems the Church really likes that Mass. (I don’t!) Next, we need a solid, traditional religious education program, for everyone, from preschool through adulthood! And the Church really needs to put an end to babyish ideas of “hippie freedom!” In religion, there must only be fidelity to Church teachings! The Catholic marriage, home and family, the very heart of the Church— needs tremendous support, especially in today’s world! CLOSE THE DOOR to the “fallen”, secular world– and PRACTICE THE FAITH!! All Catholic clergy, nuns, employees, and all Catholic schools, charities, hospitals, and etc., should be run ONLY by the Code of Canon Law– and penalties MUST BE GIVEN– to those who DISOBEY!!
The SSPX have the same issues as our church when it comes to transferring homosexual priests and inappropriate behaviors. In a letter from this website https://jloughnan.tripod.com/urrutig.htm Sample of letter:
“stating what had happend: Fr. Carlos Urrutigoity, the founder and former superior general of the Society of St. John, had been dismissed for homosexual behavior when he was a seminarian at the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) seminary in La Reja, Argentina. In that same letter, I noted that Urrutigoity, after he had been dismissed from the seminary in La Reja, was admitted as a seminarian into the SSPX seminary in Winona, Minnesota, where he was eventually ordained and made a professor. Finally, I further mentioned that Fr. Urrutigoity was subsequently expelled from the seminary in Winona as a result of his subversive activities.
My letter left many readers with the same question: How could it be that the SSPX dismissed Carlos Urrutigoity for homosexual behavior from one of its seminaries, but subsequently accepted him into another SSPX seminary, and then ultimately ordained him a priest and even made him a professor there?” https://jloughnan.tripod.com/urrutig.htm
Another case involving another SSPX priest: Taken from another website source:
“San Francisco Faith
November, 2005
FATHER BENEDICT VAN DER PUTTEN, a priest formerly of the Society of St. Pius X, has been relieved of his faculties by Pope Benedict XVI, according to an announcement issued by the chancellor of the diocese of Marquette in August. Van der Putten, who, beginning in 1995, had been retreat master at the society’s St. Aloysius Retreat House in Los Gatos, left the Society of St. Pius X in 2000 to seek reconciliation with Rome. In December 2003, the bishop of Scranton, Pennsylvania, where Van der Putten had gone to seek regularization, announced that he had refused incardination to Van der Putten “because of the seriousness of his admitted sexual misconduct.” According to the diocese of Marquette, Van der Putten, “at one time a holder of a celebret from the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, has been dismissed from the clerical state by decree of His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI, after being accused of sexual abuse of minors.” Van der Putten reportedly is currently living in Hawaii.
Regrettably, no Traditionalist group has been immune from the scourge of the accusations of child abuse, whether they be Ecclesia Dei, SSPX, or Sedevecantist.
It is a problem after all that St. Peter Damian faced during the 1000s.”
There is a lot of fear mongering information out there. I feel for Linda Maria because she is mislead and has been scandalized by the information she is being fed that is leading her towards schismatic behavior. I don’t know if she has noticed but she is handling the crises in our church, the wrong way. She is not listening to Christ, To His word and His call to all His lay faithful in full communion with His church.
This is why I consider the problems with SSPX problematic. The devil is using their breaking away as another tool to slow down the mission of the church. It has erupted with more moral relativism. That is why we need to armor ourselves with Christ’s truths, read His word in Holy scriptures, read the CCC, study the lives of the saints on matters of obedience and holiness etc. Please pray for Linda Maria today. Do it with love and compassion for what she is feeling right now. All this anguish she is spilling here, we hope that it doesn’t cause more scandal but we pray that it will prompt others to pray and fast. Some sins are harder to rid of, some need not only prayer but also requires one to fast. Don’t forget confession with a priest who is validly ordained. Fasting is key. Please pray and fast.
This is in response to the post of Abecca, bullying me irrationally! Why do this? And why bully the SSPX?? It is not good, to try to reply to someone who is engaging in bullying, name-calling, and similar RUDE behaviors! When writing a post, one should be polite, mature, state only the facts, give your own opinions.
Double standard. Now that we state facts about the SSPX, now its bullying. But Their constant bickering on how the church has gone bad isnt. This is very predictable of them. For the life of me i will never understand their lack of common sense. Why react in such a way that makes you look like a victim. That is not the intention. Its about correcting error. Pray about it.
Linda Marie, it is obvious to me that the Blessed Mother has sent Abeca Christian to save you from mortal sin. PLEASE, listen to her and pray your rosary with this intention.
Do you pray the prayer to St, Joseph after your rosary? It was written by Pope Leo XIII-the Pope of the Rosary, to whom the prayer to St. Michael is also attributed. Please pray that too.
I will post it on another post so you can have it.
Please listen. All the SSPX priests are suspended priests who illegitimately say the Mass. They are excommunicated because they do this. They are in mortal sin. Pray for their conversion.
“To thee, O blessed Joseph, do we come in our tribulation, and having implored the help of thy most holy Spouse, we confidently invoke thy patronage also. Through that charity which bound thee to the immaculate Virgin Mother of God and through the paternal love with which thou embraced the Child Jesus, we humbly beg thee to graciously regard the inheritance which Jesus Christ has purchased by his Blood, and with thy power and strength to aid us in our necessities.
O most watchful Guardian of the Holy Family, defend the chosen children of Jesus Christ; O most loving father, ward off from us every contagion of error and corrupting influence; O our most mighty protector, be propitious to us and from heaven assist us in our struggle with the power of darkness; and, as once thou rescued the Child Jesus from deadly peril, so now protect God’s Holy Church from the snares of the enemy and from all adversity; shield, too, each one of us by thy constant protection, so that, supported by thy example and thy aid, we may be able to live piously, to die holy, and to obtain eternal happiness in heaven. Amen.”
Linda Maria is an adult, Abeca, not a babe being ‘fed’. Would you describe Cardinal Kasper as a poor misled lambkin, being fed by some unknown? For while he is in ‘full communion’ that which he says and teaches seems far out of light with Church doctrine.
1. No one said Linda Maria is not an adult By insinuating this could cause more un-productive arguments.
2. Don’t know where you got the analogy of not a babe being fed. So that is irrelevant…Often times the truth is presented to us at a later time…its on God’s time and if one is open to them. Pride usually gets in the way. No offense but Its hard but not imposable, to undue schismatic or heretical views from anyone, from within and out of the church. As you can see by the issues we are faced often. Blame it on moral relativism as well.
3.Never thought about Carindal Kasper in the way you describe but you know that Christ’ warned us about false teachers in His church. But wait there is hope……Those that protect His church and live the faith from within, are the real lay faithful who are in full communion, don’t judge the whole church by the actions of those who dissent. Remember we are dealing with human beings. .
4.I appreciate your post but you mention things that only distract away from the real reason I posted my comments. I’m sorry if I did not convey well enough to help you understand me. I don’t know how else to communicate it better. I thank you for this cordial dialogue. I mean it.
Abeca, I do not know how to convey to you that it is what you write and how you write it that gives me the impression I have of you. You may not be aware, but talking down to folks like you just did to Linda Maria and also YFC is distracting and rather insulting. Children do not like being patronized and do not respond well to such treatment when it is identified, but adults are especially put off by such an approach.
Even comments such as, “Don’t judge the whole church by the actions of those who dissent. Remember we are dealing with human beings,” is assuming a level of ignorance and/or bad will of those who are also merely human beings who are following God’s graces. Human beings that, despite your view, know much about the Church, love the Church, and are part of the Mystical Body despite what you may have been told.
Protecting the Church does not mean lying about or downplaying serious problems. Nor does it mean attacking others one falsely perceives as enemies. That is why calm, rational dialog is key, that and grace and the desire to truly learn, not just be right.
I’m sorry if you consider what I’m saying a distraction, but your style is distracting in that it is not consistent. And that lack of consistency is what advertises problems instead of solving them.
God bless.
Abeca, the topic is why Catholic schools are failing.
Why this persistent advertising for the SSPX? That said, Society schools are doing quite well in transmitting the Faith and they are actually increasing in number, that is number of schools and number of students in attendance.
If you want to begin quoting pedophile cases, you could begin by looking at all aspects of society and you will learn that parents often abuse their own children. Would you like to use those statistics to dissuade parenthood? School teachers have also been accused and found guilty. Shall we denigrate all educational institutions?
The subject at hand is why Catholic schools are failing. And the chief reason why Catholic schools are failing is because they are not teaching the Faith, consistently, firmly, and without apology beginning at the primary grades. Scrabbling to ‘be nice’ often leaves one with being nice as the primary virtue as God’s law doesn’t fall off the cracker, but is shoved off the cracker.
But thank you yet again for advertising the SSPX with regard to burgeoning Catholic education – and vocations. You are a huge help!
The topic mentioned in this website, are issues facing the church and its appropriate to mention the SSPX, especially since there are many here who support the SSPX many here who magnify the imperfections of the church, while painting a lie that the SSPX is perfect and that they will save the church. Its all lie. SSPX will not save the church, they only contribute to the spiritual problematic battles we face daily. Heretics, schismatics and even moral relativism, it is because of those reasons, that our church is faced with obstacles that corrupt the church and slow down the mission of the church. Sin complicates things. Disobedience, lack of reading the CCC, holy Scripture. etc
Abeca, your continued reference to the SSPX is nothing but advertisement as there is no magnification of the problems going on in the Church. The problems are real, pervasive and despite your efforts to deflect reality, are coming ever clearer to light. You cannot blame those who see the problems with being the cause of said problems. That’s killing the messenger, friend.
The only one painting any lie with regard to perfection or the hinting thereof is you. What will save the Church is the fullness of Faith, Abeca, that is why it is not the Society itself that will do the job. That is your own imagination and fears at play. Rather it is the keeping and promotion of the fullness of Faith that will come to the fore, calling that which isn’t a ‘lie’.
So again, seek to know who and what the real enemy is. Otherwise you waste your energies fighting those that can help and are doing just that despite your anxieties.
Great post, Abeca.
Thanks Anonymous and others read
HOW THW SSPX PERSECUTED FR JOHN RIZZO
How the SSPX Persecuted Fr. John Rizzo taken from:
In The Line of Fire: Fr. John Rizzo, Ex-SSPX
by Michael J. Mazza
Fidelity Magazine, May 1995 Issue
https://thetraditionalcatholicfaith.blogspot.com/2010/08/how-thw-sspx-persecuted-fr-john-rizzo.html
This is a great article. Gives plenty of facts that are helpful in understanding the problematic issues we face with acts of schism. They contribute to the many problems we face in Catholic schools, in our church. Because it lends itself to moral relativism and being outside of the church makes matter worst.
…and yet the ‘great’ post gives no illumination as to why Catholic schools are failing, rather it seeks to point the finger elsewhere. That continued denial of a problem within the Catholic schools themselves, is, in fact, the problem, mous. It is distraction and no aid whatever.
So yes, indeed, that was a great post as it sheds more light onto the buck being forever passed and at whose expense? Those who want their children educated in the ‘Catholic’ Faith, not the worldly compromise that has left the salt with no flavor :(
…are you going to turn every CCD topic thread into an SSPX reveal session from the disaffected, Abeca? That will not solve the problems in Catholic Schools. Again, your posts only highlight the unwillingness of some to look at the source of the problems and actually solve them.
That is not love,that is enabling.
Sure why not. Well Ann Malley i would like to keep chatting with you but I dont have alot of time this weekend. Be assured I dont enable but it seems like you are enabling the SSPX situation by ignoring the facts that make them problematic. Well it doesnt matter Ann Malley, dont fret over me. I cant wait till Jesus calls me home because frankly as a lay faithful i can only do what i can and I feel saddened by all this division. Takes alot out of anyone so its just best to trust in our Lord more. Prayer is the key. Im a nobody now. We are always at the mercy of our beloved Jesus. I hope that gives you peace of mind. This life is only temporary and frankly its fustrating enough especially because sin complicates things. I hate sin even more so because sin hurts Jesus. Thanks Ann Malley for your time even though i feel that you have a complicated way of viewing things but it is what it is.
…Thank you again, Abeca, for your time. But your ‘sure, why not’ demonstrates yet again that you are not about seeking or following truth, but prefer denial and finger pointing to anything other than what will identify the problem. Those who love the Church seek to defend Her, Abeca, by extricating the evil that would work within….or at the very least, speaking boldly about what the Church has always taught.
And yes, trusting in God and prayer are key. That is why Catholic schools, in my humble layman’s view, speak to the truths of the Faith unabashedly and without apology. And that is also why Society schools are blossoming.
Enjoy your busy weekend :)
Your welcome Ann Malley. I like to trust in Jesus, In His mercy and also because I remain faithful to Him and His Holy and Apostolic Catholic church, that He will continue to lead and protect me in His truths. Just because you don’t understand that, does not mean I am not walking in the truth.
What goes wrong in our church, also concerns me very much and often take actions in what I can do to be doers of our Lord’s word. I have nothing to prove to you. No offense meant. You want me to rant all day about the scandals, I have already done that here on this website for years. But I look deeper and the root of any dissent that occurs in the church, it is all contributed by heretics and schism, and products by moral relativism.
AM I like what MIKE always preaches….He says protect yourself by reading the CCC, bible, learn the GIRM etc. I say YES to that and also by living a prayerful life, fasting and trusting Jesus. The rest, Jesus will take care of. Our Lord is a loving Father, who will correct all His children. We just have to remain faithful Thankfully we have good Catholic schools as well throughout the whole world who do honor God. The schools mentioned here are from San Francisco. Thanks Ann…nice conversation. I mean it about tea,,,,,wish we could have tea. Even if we have much disagreements. I would also like to meet YFC, would love to witness to him, and since its not possible through these threads, I pray that a devout, holy Catholic would and help him. I pray that someday YFC would honor God’s calling for his situation. The church does teach that homosexuality is a disorder and it also tells them to be chaste. We need to address those issues, because we need to give them hope, that they too can get to heaven. They just need to fear the Lord and turn away from sin, especially with sins against the natural law.
Well I must get back to my weekend, you too have a nice one.
St. Rita pray for us, St, Padre Pio pray for us, St. Jerome and St. Patrick pray for us. JMJ
Ann Malley, anybody who corrects you, also corrects those “inside the Church.” You are not being singled out not is the SSPX. We are told to admonish the sinner-that means all of them. Schism is a mortal sin. Any Catholic who does not correct you is at fault.
…if you like what Mike says then, please, stop hijacking threads with SSPX distractions and imagined schisms intended to harpoon individuals. Pay attention to what’s occurring inside the Church and pray.
Pandering to the world is dangerous business…. and very much what believing Catholics (all of them) fear may be put forward in the October ’15 synod.
As to ‘sinners’, Anonymous, leave that to God after you’ve done your admonishing. If one starts advocating leaving the Church, then you may have a call to correct – otherwise it’s just trying to work ahead of grace which is prideful.
God bless
Ann Malley,is it OK for people to commit adultery as long as they do not advocate it for others?
Are we not to admonish them?
Abeca’s “Anony”, The best way for Catholics schools to not fail is to remove those professional paycheck collecting Catholic dissenters “within the school and the Church.”
According to Cardinal Kasper, a lot of things are going to be “OK” when you change the Gospel to meet “special needs and gifts”. Anony, you are not fooling anyone with you’re method to distract. You undermined faithful priests. If you want any fellow Catholics who have been scattered by such wolves, to return to a diocese then please do not call them “slime” and then invite them for tea. After all you DO realize that it is the wolves within that are causing such chaos. Plain and simple. Ann Malley is simply requesting what many Catholics (including what Cardinal Burke and Bishop Athanasius Schneider) are requesting. Many things need clarification and now we have publicly outspoken wolves who want to change the Gospel. BTW The best way to re-unite the SSPX is through prayer and to consistently show that you uphold “all” Church teaching. So far you have only undermined courageous priests and upheld “name calling.” IOW to you the New Evangelization means to call people who actually do understand the faith “slime”…. And then invite them for a cup of tea. I’d certainly have a chemist sitting right next to me before I ever took one sip of your *slippery elm* tea concoction.
…I’m with you Catherine ;^)
More Heresy From Linda Maria!!! You cannot “get rid of most of Vatican II” and be a faithful, orthodox catholic. Period. Exclamation Point!!!
This is in reply to the post of “Your Fellow Catholic.” You do make a good point, that the post-Vatican II Church does require that everyone follow Vatican II, and they consider it wrong, (but not “heretical,” really!) if you disagree with parts of Vatican II! The whole problem is, YFC– that the post-Vatican II Church leaders and laymen, are in a HUGE crisis, because so many of them DO NOT BELIEVE in the true teachings of our Church– her Faith and Morals, as set down in the Magisterium!! Many are immoral heretics! And all are granted the “Vatican II Freedoms,” to believe as they wish! That is why “bad” Catholics, like Nancy Pelosi, will not be excommunicated!! That is why a great number of pro-lifers were brutally persecuted, at Notre Dame, when the abortionist, and gay “marriage” promoter, President Obama, came to give his big speech at graduation, and received his big awards, from Notre Dame!! VERY SAD, don’t you think??
President Obama is not a Catholic. I’ve never known Catholic schools to prevent non-catholics from speaking, or being given honorary awards, etc. I am not in a position to say whether Nancy Pelosi is a good catholic or a bad catholic. That’s not my call. And it’s certainly not my call to decide whether she should be excommunicated. I think it would, however, be helpful for posters such as yourself who deny the binding authority of Vatican II to come out and state without hesitation that they accept it fully as a solemn ecumenical council of the Church binding on all the faithful. I think it would also be helpful if posters like you would retract the things you say about our Holy Father’s intentions, his faith, and his ministry. Evangelism is impossible in an environment in which people bad mouth the councils of the Church and its sacred leaders.
Evangelism is impossible if one cannot state clearly, as a Catholic, whether or not one taking the positions that Nancy Pelosi does with regard to Catholic teaching is fodder for excommunication and/or is at the very minimum – bad. Otherwise, the evangelization is ‘… think and do what you will and call yourself Catholic if you like.’ I gather, however, that that is the mode you angling for.
…as for ‘Sacred’ leaders,they are men, YFC, not Sacred Cows whose behavior and personal agendas are impervious to that which is sinful. They draw their authority from God and the teachings of the Church, not from personal opinion. That is why, to evanelize successfully, Catholics should be honest when the hypocritical positions of the ‘Sacred’ leaders causes scandal and disconnects from the source of all sacredness.
The Catholic Church states it is a Sacrilege for anyone to receive Holy Communion unworthily (in a state of mortal sin).
And Sacred Scripture states receiving unworthily is a cause for condemnation 1 Cor 11:27-30
If you do not know that you are not Catholic.
“Your Fellow Catholic”: You are so confused, but this may be understandable, given the vast amount of literature available about Vatican II and its meaning. From what St. John XXIII said, and Paul VI implemented, no authority was was recognized in the Council, nor did it claim any, to treat dogma. That is, the Council was intended to be, and was, a “pastoral” council and not dogmatic.
This means that its documents (although some were labelled as “dogmatic”) are not part of the magisterium. No de fide statements of truth were developed to which Catholic belief is owed.
The very recent discussions between the Vatican and the SSPX brought to light the purposeful “ambiguities” and the “time bombs” that were planted in the Council’s documents. These have been helpful to Zombie-Liberals in later years, to advance heresy. Calls have been issued to create a list of the ambiguities created by Vatican II documents so that they might be corrected, a position that Benedict seemed to favor (but then he resigned).
Of course, Francis will have none of this. He describes himself as “I am Vatican II”, so, for the time being, Catholics are stuck while the Church tries, while it is institutionally dying, to create more and more “springtime of Vatican II”. Time to teach and implement Catholic Tradition.
AnnMalley you have followed many sacred cows in your time, so you must know what you are talking about.
I am pretty sure that people who badmouth the Church and the pope do more damage to the Church and her evangelical mission than Nancy Pelosi.
YFC,
You consistently badmouth God’s laws (Church teaching) and you have done far more damage to God’s intended mission regarding the soul of your friend and also to your own soul. Then to add even more insult to your injurious choice to spiritually damage others you also cavalierly refer to this damaging behavior as fellow Catholic behavior.
…the teachings of the Catholic Church in their fullness are not sacred cows, YFC, but rather sacred. Not due to the teaching in and of themselves but due to the source from when they’ve come. And Catholics do tend to follow that which has been passed down, YFC, at least those intent on faithfulness. That is why you and I are often at odds as you tend to look to the present without any tangible link to the past which is what lends credibility.
As to doing damage to the Church, if the notion is to just put forward an ever evolving institution say like an all boy’s club that now accepts women, then you would be correct. But again, the Faith is not the Theory of Evolution. I know that disappoints, but there we are, friend.
But that is precisely why we must be clear about what the evangelical mission is – build up numbers with no Faith or spread the Faith. It’s a honest query that deserves an honest and forthright answer, but one that seems to perpetually confuse and or anger you.
God bless.
One of the sacred cows you parade around regularly is the supposed “confusion” that resulted from Vatican II. This was the very first of Lefebvre’s charges against the Council. Oh the poor Arch was “confused”. I have consistently and regularly invited you to tell us what exactly you are confused about, so that we might help you seek clarification. Yet you demure every time. We have no idea what you or your founder were confused about. Being confused can be an honest response to a doctrine you do not understand. Seeking genuine clarification to confusion is an act of grace. Constantly harping on your confusion is a sacred cow.
…a Sacred Cow is indicative of that which is not allowed to be touched or questioned or even thought of as problematic, YFC. So indeed, VII is your Cow. That said, if you are confused as to what the Society’s issues are regarding that council, objections shared by many faithful Catholics, I suggest you visit the following website to obtain accurate information:
https://sspx.org/en/faq-page/what-should-catholics-think-vatican-ii-1988
If you do not educate yourself, that is on you, YFC, despite your attempt to *consistently* wriggle away from responsibility. Your blame shifting tango impresses no one, YFC, especially not anyone with an education that goes beyond a homosexual sexual agenda.
So sorry, councelor, your closing statement lacks any weight whatever for the confusion is yours…. and by design. You’ll have to do better than that.
How often do we have people say anti-V2 comments that are only based on prejudges and ignorance. Yes we know we have issues, that is why people fight the good fight, its been happening since the beginning of time. They neglect Christ and His promises to His church faithful, they depend on outside sources to feed them untruths. Often there are comments saying that the SSPX is better and this and that. So they bring it up, now its time to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Its up to you to put the puzzle together. An X-member of SSPX gave us facts that the SSPX also moved some priests around who were caught with some sexual abuse. They took a while too to resolve and it disappointed the SSPX member. It was kept secret. So while those who hate our church are busy trying to remove the splinter of our church’s eye’s, they neglect to remove their own Rod, out of their own eyes. Which in their case, it is their refusal to return to ROME! So yes its appropriate, any actions from any protestant group, affects us all in some way or another, it contributes to the issues we now face even from within! Gossip, slander, scandal etc all create chaos, moral relativism, confusion, fear mongering, etc etc….need i say more!
No, Abeca, you do not need to say more.
The jig is up as your blind bias against something you do not understand and refuse to educate yourself about is clear.
Again, the topic is why Catholic schools are failing. That is the issue here, Abeca, and try as you may you cannot blame that on those who are successfully teaching the Faith and cleaving to it. Not even by using capital letters.
Ann Malley, I have never claimed to be confused. It is you and the Archbishop-founder of SSPX that from day one has claimed to be confused. Please do not take a word that you use and then when you are asked about your confusion, you pretend that everyone else is confused.
In his life, Lefebvre used this notion of his being confused many times to get out of what he was being told by his Ordinary and by the Popes that be. When he was told he had to shut his seminary, he said he was confused about whether the order applied to him. Then, a year later when he was about to ordain priests and was warned not to ordain them, he said he was confused about how you could possibly train clerics and then withhold ordination from them. Both times, the Pope made a direct order of Lefebvre. I think both times, the Pope sent additional warnings that the orders did in fact apply to him. Yet, he always refused to comply. There is no way he was could have been confused, unless he was suffering from some kind of dementia, and I don’t think there has ever been any evidence that he had any such disease. His gospel was not that of proclaiming Christ’s Good News, it was to say to the world that if you don’t want to follow the Roman Pontiff, just tell everyone you are confused.
Please, followers of the SSPX, go to their website.
Someone is kind enough to try to tell you the truth about them but you do not want to hear.
Maybe you just go to one of their chapels for Mass and you do not see them any other time. Every trad priest looks holy during Mass, but it is the Mass that is holy not the priests.
Every time Ann Malley trumpets how they teach the fullness of the faith, I want to reach into my computer and shake some sense into her. Why would anybody buy that claptrap?
Nobody that knows the Catholic Faith would go near that bunch of liars. You expose your own ignorance of the Catholic Faith by following them.
1. no jig…I won’t feel insulted, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you meant no insult here
2.no blind bias Not at all, I’m always seeking the truth.
3.as much as you like to insinuate that I am ignorant about something that I do not understand, I assure you is not true. I’m sorry you feel that way.
4. please refer to my original explanation….I guess we don’t see eye to eye. I think you feel offended. Not my attention, but as the saying goes “The truth hurts’ No pun intended.
5. Thanks Ann Malley for your comments. You are expressing how you feel. Nothing wrong with that, it doesn’t always make you right but one can certainty appreciate your opinion and how you want to convey when it is civil. Thank you for this civility. Thank you for this opportunity. God bless you : )
Ann Malley, thank you for posting the page from the SSPX. It would take a lot of posts to address all the errors but we can work on it if you like.
Red flags: fragments of sentences taken out of context.
Red flags: telling you how you should interpret things that they never even present
Red flag: distortion of the truth and glaring errors that people who are not well educated in the faith might not catch (but should)
So shall we begin:
Vatican II was a meeting of all the world’s bishops-yes, a very special meeting called an ecumenical council. “Ecumenical Councils are those to which the bishops, and others entitled to vote, are convoked from the whole world (oikoumene) under the presidency of the pope or his legates, and the decrees of which, having received papal confirmation, bind all Christians.”
Ecumenical means of the whole earth. It does not mean “appealing to the religiosity of all people whatever their religion” as the SSPX website erroneously states.
“The greatest concern of the Ecumenical Council is this: that he sacred deposit of Christian doctrine should be guarded and taught more efficaciously. That doctrine embraces the whole of man, composed as he is of body and soul. And, since he is a pilgrim on this earth, it commands him to tend always toward heaven.
This demonstrates how our mortal life is to be ordered in such a way as to fulfil our duties as citizens of earth and of heaven, and thus to attain the aim of life as established by God. That is, all men, whether taken singly or as united in society, today have the duty of tending ceaselessly during their lifetime toward the attainment of heavenly things and to use. for this purpose only, the earthly goods, the employment of which must not prejudice their eternal happiness.”
What do you think was going on in the world that Pope John XXIII felt it necessary to call an Ecumenical Council-to bring the bishops of the whole world together just to guard and teach the deposit of faith? Efficaciously-with the power to produce the desired result. This was 1962 and the council had been in the planning stages for 3 years-since January 25, 1959. He describes the moment of the words ecemenical council as a sudden inspiration that came into his heart and on his lips, that was completely unexpected, like a flash of heavenly light, as he made it known to the College of Cardinals and that brought sweetness to eye and heart and great fervor in the Church.
…educate yourself, YFC. You are nothing but confusion sowing confusion, friend. You do not seek clarity or understanding.
I would ask you not attempt to confuse the situation of VII’s lack of clarity in certain areas by attempting to paint individuals as ‘confused’, but that would be futile as that is your favored method. Referring to an Archbishop as ‘Arch’ is also a giveaway as to what you really think of ‘sacred’ leadership of any kind. That is why your overblown references to ‘holy’ ring false.
That said, you are confused if you believe that keeping the Faith is only a matter of follow the leader, friend, for the leader has a leader and certain obligations as well. And the more confusion you and others can sow regarding that reality seems to be the ultimate goal.
Again, you’ll have to do better than that.
It looks as if you’ve been seriously looking at the shortcomings of your own posts, Abeca. Well done. Although the ‘truth hurts’ jab was intended, but that is okay too as this seems to be your first venture toward mutual civility. Taking responsibility for your own bad behavior goes a long way to mutual respect.
1.) Jig is not an insult, Abeca, so there is no need to give a benefit of the doubt. But thank you anyway. That is progress
2) It is blind bias for, despite your protestations, your posts represent a throwing of stones and half truths from muck racking sites. Even when you castigate so called muckrakers. This inconsistency is proof of bias to the onlooker, even if you don’t agree.
3)Being ignorant of something does not imply a lack of intelligence, Abeca, but a lack of information. Again, you seek information from muckrakers as a means of slamming that which frightens you because of a ‘tone’ you sense/fear. That is not the fashion after which one pursues understanding, intelligence, or Truth. Rather it broadcasts a seeking to be right. There is a vast difference.
5)Your original ‘explanation’ is completely off topic and only serves as more advertisement for the organization you fear as the topic here is why Catholic Schools fail. And if you believe the answer to that is not right in the schools themselves then, no, we do not agree.
God bless you, Anonymous, but I understand what an ecumenical council is. I also have a firm grasp of the world climate at the time VII was called. Your indestructible innocence is astounding, but sadly, not up to the task upon which you venture.
“The greatest concern of the Ecumenical Council is this: that (t)he sacred deposit of Christian doctrine should be guarded and taught more efficaciously. ”
Your quote above is precisely why VII demands written clarification. The reality that a majority of Catholics do not know their faith – even those who attend Catholic schools, Church, etc – bears witness to the corrosive fruit that is the result of a lack of clarity.
“…He describes the moment of the words ecemenical council as a sudden inspiration that came into his heart and on his lips, that was completely unexpected, like a flash of heavenly light, as he made it known to the College of Cardinals and that brought sweetness to eye and heart and great fervor in the Church.”
And while you may be led to believe that the above wasn’t used by the powers that be – and not the good ones – to insert that which is even now devastating the vineyard, then there is no discussing realities with you, Anonymous. You will forever be held captive in the flash of light that is all too often deceptive.
Ann Malley you have so fine tuned the confusion excuse that you are confused about confusion itself. I remind everyone again that from Archbishop Lefebvre till this very day, accusations of confusion are used as an excuse to ignore the magisterial teachings of the Council and obedience to the Roman Pontiff. The best AM can do is lead us to a web page with a table that takes fragments from long complicated documents and slaps up how they got interpreted, provides foootnotes that don’t exist on the page, and never says anything about what they are confused about, why VII was wrong, or what is to be learned, in their opinion, from VII. If you are confused about what Vatican II taught, it is because you have been confused by your leadership or your own attempt to justify your schismatic ways.
Ann Malley, going over the Vatican II documents to clarify them for you will take even longer than addressing all the errors and untruths in the SSPX page that you linked to, but I am willing to do it.
What document would you like to start with?
Ann Malley you are wrong. What you interpret as malice intent is not. Im done going over this with you. You will only come out with some sort of interpretation of your own. You either get it or you dont. Jesus and His truths is my only concern. Well it would do us well to pray for one another. Take care.
Ann Malley, The sspx page that you suggest we read points out three times that Vatican II was pastoral. No where does it say what pastoral means. Pastoral comes from the word pastor which means shepherd. Pastoral refers to the care of souls. And they do not say why it is significant. Obviously, dogma was well established and there was no need to go over that. From Pope John XXIII opening address to the council.
The salient point of this Council is not, therefore, a discussion of one article or another of the fundamental doctrine of the Church which has repeatedly been taught by the Fathers and by ancient and modern theologians, and which is presumed to be well known and familiar to all.
For this a Council was not necessary. But from the renewed, serene, and tranquil adherence to all the teaching of the Church in its entirety and preciseness, as it still shines forth in the Acts of the Council of Trent and First Vatican Council, the Christian, Catholic, and apostolic spirit of the whole world expects a step forward toward a doctrinal penetration and a formation of consciousness in faithful and perfect conformity to the authentic doctrine, which, however, should be studied and expounded through the methods of research and through the literary forms of modern thought. The substance of the ancient doctrine of the deposit of faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another.
Fine tuning is correct, YFC. Sadly, I am no master at it, but even if I were, I am no Shepherd. Those like Cardinal Kasper and whatever leadership has given you the erroneous impression that promoting homosexual sexual unions is somehow good and righteous and ‘Catholic’ are masters of spin and subtlety. Talk about your 180 on what the Church actually teaches.
And yes, YFC, the best I can do is lead you to a source for the information for which you asked. If you *desire* further understanding, read deeper. But that is precisely the point. You choose not to do so, but rather wallow in the sound-byte pool in an effort to makes all loose their taste for depth and constancy so as to cling instead to the oily surface of what is stagnant. That’s why Catholic Schools are failing, friend.
Children are not stupid and can recognize falsehood and shallowness when they see it. Perhaps not while they are beneath their parents thumb, or dependent upon their funds, but when they reach maturity they’re gone – often starving while searching for what will fill up the empty void below the shallow pool.
“…What you interpret as malice intent is not. Im done going over this with you. You will only come out with some sort of interpretation of your own. You either get it or you dont.”
That is why it is so critical that writing and teachings be clear, Abeca, precise and consistent. Catholics should not have to rely on the ‘Interpretation Bird’ on their shoulder when looking to that which should be very clear – Vatican II documents,the CCC, etc. That need for the Interpretation Bird is what has given Church hierarchy the green light to ‘interpret’ at will – and not always with the same meaning. (That need for clarity is what gave us the CCC 2nd edition because the first edition, despite its release, contained that which could be mis-interpreted. Just like your posts.)
So while you tilt at the windmills of those who should be your allies, if only for their desire for clarity and consistent teaching, those of your mindset only enable the continued mis-interpretation of documents that gave us the ‘Spirit’ of VII instead of ‘what was intended’.
Again, enjoy your weekend.
Ann Malley, the SSPX page that you gave us to read also quotes from the brief of Pope Paul VI at the closing of Ecumenical Council of Vatican II. The again point out that he called it pastoral (remember that means care of souls) and that it made an effort to reach out to the souls of separated Christians and those of other religions. Here is the whole brief. I will make special note of something very pertinent that the SSPX did not point out.
APOSTOLIC BRIEF ‘IN SPIRITU SANCTO’ FOR THE CLOSING OF THE COUNCIL
December 8, 1965 read at the closing ceremonies by Archbishop Pericle Felici, general secretary of the council.
The Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, assembled in the Holy Spirit and under the protection of the Blessed Virgin Mary, whom we have declared Mother of the Church, and of St. Joseph, her glorious spouse, and of the Apostles SS. Peter and Paul, must be numbered without doubt among the greatest events of the Church. In fact it was the largest in the number of Fathers who came to the seat of Peter from every part of the world, even from those places where the hierarchy has been very recently established.
Apostolic Brief (cont)
It was the richest because of the questions which for four sessions have been discussed carefully and profoundly. And last of all it was the most opportune, because, bearing in mind the necessities of the present day, above all it sought to meet the pastoral needs and, nourishing the flame of charity, it has made a great effort to reach not only the Christians still separated from communion with the Holy See, but also the whole human family.
At last all which regards the holy ecumenical council has, with the help of God, been accomplished and all the constitutions, decrees, declarations and votes have been approved by the deliberation of the synod and promulgated by us. Therefore we decided to close for all intents and purposes, with our apostolic authority, this same ecumenical council called by our predecessor, Pope John XXIII, which opened October 11, 1962, and which was continued by us after his death.
(Now comes the REALLY IMPORTANT PART left out by the SSPX)
WE decided moreover that all that has been established synodally is to be religiously observed by all the faithful, for the glory of God and the dignity of the Church and for the tranquillity and peace of all men.
Final part of the Apostolic Brief closing Vatican II:
We have approved and established these things, decreeing that the present letters are and remain stable and valid, and are to have legal effectiveness, so that they be disseminated and obtain full and complete effect, and so that they may be fully convalidated by those whom they concern or may concern now and in the future; and so that, as it be judged and described, all efforts contrary to these things by whomever or whatever authority, knowingly or in ignorance be invalid and worthless from now on.
Given in Rome at St. Peter’s, under the [seal of the] ring of the fisherman, December 8, on the feast of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the year 1965, the third year of our pontificate.
Ann Malley, the SSPX page that you asked us to read criticizes the Vatican II Ecumenical Council for having no condemnations. What the page does not inform its readers of is that all of the condemnations of doctrines from the Council of Trent and though out Church History were valid before and after the Second Vatican Council and are still valid today.
“…WE decided moreover that all that has been established synodally is to be religiously observed by all the faithful, for the glory of God and the dignity of the Church and for the tranquillity and peace of all men.”
But, Anonymous, when statements are able to be interpreted in myriad ways, the binding nature of statements being “religiously” observed goes right out the window – as things are left open to interpretation. Not definition.
That’s the problem.
Ann Malley, I’m starting to think that you never read the page before posting that link. So much of it is obviously wrong and even ridiculous. I’m happy to continue even though other posters are complaining about too much SSPX talk.
This article is about education and Catholic education does not stop just because you are out of school.
Ann Malley, there are not a myriad ways to interpret the statements.
From the CCC
“The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ.” This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.”
And that is binding on the faithful.
Nothing is left open to interpretation. By whom? You don’t seem to understand the Church very well.
The SSPX page that you referred us to states that the aspect of Mass is stressed in the document Sacrosanctum Concilium. The word banquet occurs once in the document; here is the passage.
7. At the Last Supper, on the night when He was betrayed, our Saviour instituted the eucharistic sacrifice of His Body and Blood. He did this in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the Cross throughout the centuries until He should come again, and so to entrust to His beloved spouse, the Church, a memorial of His death and resurrection: a sacrament of love, a sign of unity, a bond of charity , a paschal banquet in which Christ is eaten, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to us .
The SSPX oage cite paragraph 10 as being the one which stresses the banquet aspect of the Mass. It says:
. Nevertheless the liturgy is the summit toward which the activity of the Church is directed; at the same time it is the font from which all her power flows. For the aim and object of apostolic works is that all who are made sons of God by faith and baptism should come together to praise God in the midst of His Church, to take part in the sacrifice, and to eat the Lord’s supper.
The liturgy in its turn moves the faithful, filled with “the paschal sacraments,” to be “one in holiness” [26]; it prays that “they may hold fast in their lives to what they have grasped by their faith” [27]; the renewal in the Eucharist of the covenant between the Lord and man draws the faithful into the compelling love of Christ and sets them on fire. From the liturgy, therefore, and especially from the Eucharist, as from a font, grace is poured forth upon us; and the sanctification of men in Christ and the glorification of God, to which all other activities of the Church are directed as toward their end, is achieved in the most efficacious possible way.
The SSPX page that you referred us to says that the Liturgy of the Word is stressed in the document Sacrosanctum Concilium. The term “liturgy of the Word” appears once in the document in paragraph 56:
The two parts which, in a certain sense, go to make up the Mass, namely, the liturgy of the word and the eucharistic liturgy, are so closely connected with each other that they form but one single act of worship. Accordingly this sacred Synod strongly urges pastors of souls that, when instructing the faithful, they insistently teach them to take their part in the entire Mass, especially on Sundays and feasts of obligation.
Mister Christopher makes several errors in his post of “February 4, 2015 at 3:35 pm”. The fact that the Pope declared that the council was “primarily pastoral in nature” does not mean that there were not doctrinal elements contained within its declaration. The opinion that there were no de fide statements is just that, an opinion. And even if there were no de fide statements, it does not remove the declarations from the realm of magisterial teaching, binding upon all Catholics. ALL ecumenical councils have contained a mixture of pastoral and doctrinal elements. But true faithful catholics don’t cast aside councils with less doctrinal elements in them. They attempt to learn the doctrinal and pastoral elements being taught – all being taught as part of the Magisterium of the Church and ALL binding on all the faithful. When you so confidently and arrogantly declare that ” its documents (although some were labelled as “dogmatic”) are not part of the magisterium” is itself an heretical and possibly schismatic statement. ALL documents eminating from an ecumenical council that meet with the approval of the Pope are part of the magisterial teachings of the Church. By Definition.
I will add to my above post. Since Vatican II, the Church has almost forgotten, that its true mission is to become the holy, spotless Bride of Christ! The Church is NOT OF THE “FALLEN,” SECULAR WORLD, it is of CHRIST!! We must exist in the world, but not be “worldly,” as Christ told His disciples, at the Last Supper. The Church must CLOSE THE DOOR to the “fallen,” secular world, that does not know, nor understand, nor accept Christ! Baptism is the doorway to Heaven! After that, as children, we must have our little footsteps guided lovingly and correctly, so that we grow up as PRACTICING CATHOLICS, in a PRACTICING CATHOLIC HOME! As true, devoted PRACTICING CATHOLICS, quietly following Jesus Christ each day, we can bring His Light and His Love, to the suffering, ignorant, ” fallen” world! All Catholic schools and colleges, are established to educate Catholics, and make them excellent, practicing Catholics, for the Church’s future, for Christ! This way, the Church will help make a better world, everywhere, as good, practicing Catholics bring Christ to the world, daily, in all of their endeavors!
May God continue to gird you with His Grace, Linda Marie, so that you will *always* speak the truth for love of Him. Would that the same could be said for those who claim faithfulness, but work against Our Lord in those myriad capacities more commonly known as, ‘Useful Idiot.’
I will add one last thing to my two above posts. I think the Archbishop is wasting his time with his “Office of Catholic Identity,” and his “Catholic school identity measurement program,” led by a young lay woman, Melanie Morey. Silly! This is a fearful, useless avoidance of the REAL PROBLEM!! How about first having the Pope issue a proclamation of some sort, stating that the Church will now abide strictly by the Church’s Code of Canon Law, plus– requiring that all clergy, nuns, and religious orders, as well as secular Church employees, immediately obey, and begin a program of traditional Catholic instruction, as well as religious practice– to turn them all into very excellent, truly practicing Catholics?? Then, ordering ONLY reverent, holy Masses, in the Ordinary or Extraordinary Forms— with the priest fully in charge, and only traditional Catholic liturgical music?? The Catholic Church is in DESPERATE NEED, of FIRM, HOLY, MANLY, OBJECTIVE, COURAGEOUS LEADERSHIP— IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST!! WITH THE POPE AT THE TOP, AND EVERYONE ELSE TO OBEY!!
Linda Marie, you are a silly woman if you think a Bishop or even a Conference of Bishops can command the Pope to do anything.
Further, would you have a Diocese Bishop do nothing to correct the lack of accurately and adequately teach the Faith in Catholic Schools in his own Diocese?
Each Diocese Bishops must do whatever he can to correct wrongs within his own Diocese.
Everything starts in the individual Diocese – good or bad schools,
encouraging all literate Catholics to read Sacred Scripture and the CCC at home, etc.. etc.
Pray for the Pope and all the Bishops, and publically support those who are trying to do good.
If you have better ideas, you have a duty to contact your own Diocese Bishop and/or Parish Priest as appropriate. Have you done that?
CCC: ” 907 In accord with the knowledge, competence, and preeminence which they possess, [lay people] have the right and even at times a duty
to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church,
and they have a right to make their opinion known to the other Christian faithful,
with due regard to the integrity of faith and morals and reverence toward their pastors, and with consideration for the common good and the dignity of persons.”
This is in response to the post of Anna. Why call people names? Of course, I am NOT a “silly woman!” Are YOU? Popes, bishops, and conferences, of post-Vatican II, just have lots of “talk,” or “dialogue.” But Church leaders of the post-Vatican II Church, do NOT believe in traditional Church governance, using the Code of Canon Law! Nor do they necessarily follow the Catechism, nor even the Holy Bible! All are ABSOLUTELY “FREE,” to do as they wish! That is why the Church has been DISINTEGRATING! S.F. Archbishop Cordileone CANNOT, for example— go over to a gay-infested parish church like Most Holy Redeemer, and order it to be all truly Catholic, with stern penalties, for disobedience! Nor can he do likewise, at USF– and order the “bad” Jesuits, to clean up their school! NOT IN VATICAN II!! HE CANNOT! All he can do– is approach problems, with modern, two-way “dialogue,” and suggestions. That’s all! So– do not call me names! Our Church has a very serious CRISIS!!
Linda Marie, simply prove your statements by providing links to Official Church Documents.
Be as specific as possible.
Many of us would like to know what facts you are using. So far we only hear your personal accusations and opinions without any OFFICIAL documentation. Don’t expect people to believe your hearsay.
Give us the FACTS.
By using caps you are ranting and raving.
Yes thank you DAVID V I agree.
Your caps would indicate the same, David V. The fact that there is no ‘official’ proclamations made against heterodox teachings and/or pastoral ‘approaches’ that is suspect.
Ann Malley there HAVE been proclamations against the heterodox! Against Archbishop Lefebvre’s society, against his ordination of priests, against his ordination of bishops, and finally his excommunication! You seem to have conveniently forgotten those.
YFC, there is no heterodoxy in the Society. And the refusal to embrace heterodoxy as pastoral is the *doctrinal* difficulty. Again, educate yourself. But again, that is what you prefer as you seek to selfstyle as a ‘Catholic’ in good standing while promoting that which goes against the teachings of the Church…. and the Bible.
Love the caps,friend.
Ann Malley, heterodoxy is why the SSPX exists and why they would not sign the doctrinal preamble presented to them by the Vatican.
Ann Malley, you really don’t seem to know much about the SSPX. Are you sure you are not just arguing for the sake of arguing?
It is easy to say “educate yourself” but to be honest, we should stop spending so much of our time educating ourselves in other people’s errors and spend out time learning God’s truth.
You seem to be fairly obstinate in your defense of the SSPX even when people post examples of their heresies and their errors and their just out-right lies. No serious Christian can support this group. You lie for them and you don’t even know the first thing about them.
Ann Malley stop lying about it. This shows the danger in “Church shopping.” You end up at a Church you like and you don’t want to hear the truth about it.
It wouldn’t kill you to go to a Catholic Church, though. It is one hour a week. Why would you go to hell over this silly loyalty to a bunch of mortal sinners?
“…you are a silly woman if you think a Bishop or even a Conference of Bishops can command the Pope to do anything.”
It is absurd to believe that a conference of Bishops cannot pressure the pope via threats of schism to do what they desire and/or to allow them to continue on their own way, Anna.
So yes, everything begins in the diocese, but when those in authority ‘fear’ that a huge block of misled and or headstrong parishioners will leave said diocese (along with all their $$ and what children they have) because the teachings are too hard, they do not do as Christ did, and let them leave. They soft pedal or get off the bike entirely so as to ‘keep their places’.
So Linda Maria is not silly at all, rather she is calling on the Vicar of Christ to use his position to defend the fullness of the Faith which is a righteousand long overdue request.
You have GOT to be kidding!!!!!
Do you not know anything about the Catholic Church????????
How ridiculous!!!!!!!
LOL!!!!!!!!!
So much for civility.
…you may want to look into the development of the Dutch Catechism, Abeca. Many lessons to be learned about how things work in real time, not just how they are ‘supposed’ to work.
Please forgive me, Abeca, that last post should be directed toward Anonymous.
I looked up the Dutch catechism. I see nothing about a bishop’s conference threatening schism.
The Dutch Bishops’ Conference After V2, the local “Magisterium”, developed a seriously defective catechism that deviated on moral, Christological, and Mario logical issues. So serious was it that Paul VI ordered several top V2 cardinals, most notably Belgian Michael Browne and Joseph Frings, to go and meet with the Dutch episcopal leadership and bring them back into orthodox teaching. The Dutch Catechism was denounced by the CDF, yet after all this, the Catechism continued to be printed and used, even despite the specific condemnations.
This is what Ann Malley is talking about, and it is pretty poor form to infer she is making the whole thing up when instead it is a demonstration of one’s dramatic ignorance on these matters.
And by the way, before V2, Dutch Catholics comprised about 50% of the Dutch population; in 1970, it had fallen to 40%. Recently, Abp. Eijk, primate of the Netherlands estimated that the actual population percentage of Catholics in the Netherlands had fallen to 16%! (SIXTEEN).
These are the measureable fruits of Vatican II.
You don’t have to like Vatican II. You do not even have to know Vatican II. or the Council of Trent or any other council.
Stop worrying abut what happened 50 years ago in the Netherlands and just live a good Christian life. Fulfill your duties. Obey God’s laws.
Take care of your own corner of the vineyard.
God bless you, Steve Phoenix, once again. You’re much appreciated, you know, as is your knowledge in all matters Catholic :)
The Dutch Schism: it actually gets worse. It was first, in Oct 1966, ten months after the close of V2, when the Dutch bishops, led by none other than the Card. Primate himself, Jan Alfrink, refused to change the Catechism and it’s notoriously heretical positions: by Jan, 1969, the national Dutch Pastoral Council, with Alfrink himself and all the bishops, voted in favor of a “Declaration of Independence”, rejecting specifically Humanae Vitae, but also demanding pre- marital relations, homosexuals unions, abortion and euthanasia, to be ok’d, demanding “radical new approaches” to pastoral matters. (Is this all familiar?) You have to read books on history to know this: try DeMattei, Amerio, and M. Davies for starters.
Now, the quack-quack Novus Ordo ducks will claim the official Dutch Magisterium was never in schism–even after all this factual citation. Only their supposed enemies, the trads and esp. the hated SSPX, are “quack-quack HERETICS, quack-quack, SCHIS-MAT-ICS!” Bishops, councils, synods, pontiffs and episcopal conferences occasionally veer into heterodoxy, and the Faithful better listen up and take conscientious responsibility for their Faith.
And here comes October..
Steve Phoenix, you really have this all wrong. No one hates the SSPX or the ultra-trads. We just don’t want people to fall for their BS. People do not know the Faith and they do not understand the Church and they believe any bunch of bunk that these heretics put out.
Read this from the Catechism of Trent from the section on the tenet of the Creed: I believe in the Holy Catholic Church
“First, as St. Augustine observes, the Prophets spoke more plainly and openly of the Church than of Christ, foreseeing that on this a much greater number may err and be deceived than on the mystery of the Incarnation. For in after ages there would not be wanting wicked men who, like the ape that would fain pass for a man, would claim that they alone were Catholics, and with no less impiety than effrontery assert that with them alone is the Catholic Church.”
I have six children in Catholic schools, and one of the most celebrated days of the year is halloween.
Quoted from https://sspx.agenda.tripod.com/id21.html ( IN this web link, it also speaks of a school failing and the issues it faced with an inappropriate love letter given to a student. )
“Why must there be all this quarreling and bad blood, these feuds and dissensions among you? Have we not all the same God, and the same Christ? Is not the same Spirit of grace shed upon us all? Have we not all the same calling in Christ? Then why are we rending and tearing asunder the limbs of Christ, and fomenting discord against our own body? Why are we so lost to all sense and reason that we have forgotten our membership of one another?” (The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, c. A.D. 96, #46, as quoted in Early Christian Writings, Maxwell Staniforth, trans., New York: Dorset Press, 1986)
St. Ignatius of Antioch, on his way to Rome to have his own body be torn apart by lions, reminded the hearers of his letter to the Philadelphians to protect the body of the Church:
“Every man who belongs to God and Jesus Christ stands by his bishop…. But make no mistake, my brothers; the adherents of a schismatic can never inherit the kingdom of God (The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians, (3,2,3), as quoted in Early Christian Writings).
Unfortunately, there will be no UNITY within the Church until all adhere to Sacred Scripture and the CCC.
If literate Catholics read and adhered to the CCC, there would not be a need for a Synod on the Family.
Further the heretical Clergy would have very few followers.
___________________________________
Those who want to know the latest about SSPX, here it is from Pope Benedict XVI.
https://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/letters/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20090310_remissione-scomunica.html
Those who want or need to read the Vatican II Documents, here they are:
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/index.htm
Please people:
1) Personal opinions can contain ERROR.
Use links to Official Church documents to support your positions. Be specific.
(Ask other posters for OFFICIAL documentation when their post is suspect or in error.)
&
2) Stop hijacking important articles and posts for your own agenda on the SSPX and Vatican II, or other things which are NOT RELATED to the article.
Do not mention them and ignore the hijackers.
&
3) Let us all remember that some posters are not even Catholic although they pretend to be.
They want to spread error and disunity, and distract from important information (in the articles and related posts).
I agree that they are trolls and should be ignored.
People try to do a work of mercy by instructing the ignorant, counseling the doubtful and admonishing the sinner.
There is within the Church today a special danger for those who, often for seemingly legitimate reasons (abuses of the liturgy, the open promotion of heresy even by clergy, and similar causes), have sought refuge in traditionalist movements on the margins of the Church. These groups, distinguishable from those who love the Tridentine tradition of the Mass and sacraments and who celebrate them in Communion with the Pope, go their own way outside of the laws of the Church. They typically rationalize their disobedience by attacking the Second Vatican Council, the current liturgical rites, ecumenical and interreligious dialogue, and often Pope John Paul II personally, never distinguishing between teaching and law on the one hand, and the abuse of it by dissenters and the disobedient on the other.
These groups, such as the Society of St. Pius X, of Pius V, the “We Resist You to Your Face” movement, Br. Dimond and Holy Family Monastery, make ready use of scandals to gain support among the unwary, who, discouraged by their local situation, may think they are joining a more perfect orthodoxy and a more loyal remnant of Catholics. Thankfully such motives may excuse the average person who takes comfort in such groups, at least initially, though as St. Thomas Aquinas teaches to take scandal in other’s sins is istself sinful.
Also unfortunate for such souls is the fact that these ultra-traditionalist groups profess to be doctrinally orthodox, an orthodoxy which necessarily includes the teaching that Outside the Church There Is No Salvation. This means that someone who has formally separated himself from the Church through heresy or schism, or knowing the Church to be true failed to enter her, cannot be saved, unless of course they renounce their own will and reconcile with the Church. Unlike the non-Catholic Christian, can the super-orthodox claim invincible ignorance of this teaching? Can they escape the condemnation of Pope Boniface VIII, who in first elaborating it said, “this authority, although it is given to man and is exercised by man, is not human, but rather divine, and has been given by the divine Word to Peter himself and to his successors in him, whom the Lord acknowledged an established rock, when he said to Peter himself: Whatsoever you shall bind etc. [Matt. 16:19]. Therefore, whosoever resists this power so ordained by God, resists the order of God …? No wonder that given enough time such groups inevitably produce those who claim that the See of Peter is vacant, since the logic of their schismatic attitude is ultimately irreconcilable with the doctrine of papal primacy, as enunciated by both Pope Boniface and Vatican I.
From EWTN
“Teacher directive prompts vigil at San Francisco cathedral’
By LISA LEFF
Associated Press
https://www.wafb.com/story/28045107/teacher-directive-prompts-vigil-at-san-francisco-cathedral
AP Wirehead ‘Lefty Lisa’ Goes Raging Cagin Against Catholic Church – Again
One reason the media ‘Wirehead’ scam remains an effective propaganda tool is that Few Readers know about the small stable of alleged ‘Reporters’ – used by the bought and paid for ‘free press’ to deliver their Party Line to the ‘Mushrooms’ (clueless suburban readers / “Stupid American Voters”)…
– Who are otherwise kept in the dark & fed ‘media’, as part of the political indoctrination Pogrom permeating all levels of the Abomination.
The recent hatchet job by Notorious ‘AP’ Gaystapo Propagandist “Lefty Lisa” (Lisa Leff – of the allegedly “Associated Press”) Trashing the Catholic Church and Arch Bishop Cordileone of San Francisco for actually promoting authentic Catholic Teachings – is a classic example of the scam – even though published in Louisiana about Sodom by the Sea.
Formerly part of the massive Dean Singleton Propaganda Empire that twice facilitated the Electoral Fraud putting POTUS Barry ‘on the Down Low’ Soetoro and Stooges in power; AP became part of the “Digital First” syndicate when Singleton retried – after forcing his ‘chosen one’ up the public wazoo and in to the oval office.
Being fed Lefty Lisa’s steady diet of MISANDRY (Hatred of Men & Boys, Masculinity & Normal Heterosexuality) combined with pervasive Censorship is a big reason why we know more about Abusive Priests in Patagonia than the Larry Brinkin Racist Toddler Rape Ring apparently run out of the ‘in-human’rights’ commission in Frisco.
Which is just fine with ‘our’ Watchdogs of Truthiness.
” They typically rationalize their disobedience by attacking the Second Vatican Council, the current liturgical rites, ecumenical and interreligious dialogue, and often Pope John Paul II personally,
never distinguishing between teaching and law on the one hand, and the abuse of it by dissenters and the disobedient on the other. ” – Excellent post.
The Laity violate GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal) – and most Bishops and most Parish Priests do not correct them.
And sometimes the Clergy even participate in the abuses or create the abuses themselves.
Posters must learn to DIFFERENTIATE the true teachings of the Church which can be found in Sacred Scripture, CCC, GIRM, and Code of Canon Law from – abusers, dissenters, and the disobedient.
It is mortally sinful to LIE about Christ’s Church,
by posting that something is Church teaching – when in fact it is only the actions of sinners.
Failure can sometimes be ‘relative’ – and this article shows just how Far the Gaystapo feels ‘Catholic’ Schools must sink to meet their failing grade:
SEE
SF Bay Area School Permits Queer Straight Alliance to Bully Students
https://www.pacificjustice.org/press-releases/sf-bay-area-school-permits-queer-straight-alliance-to-bully-students
A school district already in hot water for its controversial sex ed program has further infuriated parents by singling out and shaming students who don’t subscribe to politically correct views on gay issues.
Attorneys with Pacific Justice Institute sent a demand letter to attorneys for Acalanes High School late Wednesday over incidents last week where students were singled out and ostracized for their beliefs.
Students reported that, on Jan. 29, members of the school’s Queer Straight Alliance (QSA) took over all freshmen English classes to grill students about their beliefs and their parents’ beliefs on LGBT issues.
The QSA had students step forward to demonstrate whether they believed that being gay was a choice and whether their parents would be accepting if they came out as gay.
Students who did not step forward were ridiculed and humiliated…
PJI believes the school exercise violated federal and state laws requiring parental notice and permission before students are questioned about personal or family beliefs on sexuality or morality.
PJI further explained that the school’s actions violated the students’ constitutional privacy rights…