The following comes from an Oct. 29 story on Religion News.
Philadelphia Archbishop Charles Chaput, a leading culture warrior in the U.S. hierarchy, says he was “very disturbed” by the debate over church teachings on gays and remarried Catholics at this month’s Vatican summit, saying it sent a confusing message and “confusion is of the devil.”
In a lecture delivered Monday evening (Oct. 20) in Manhattan, Chaput also suggested that in the wake of the rapid series of court decisions legalizing same-sex marriage in more than 30 states, Catholic priests might consider opting out of certifying civil marriages as a sign of “principled resistance.”
Chaput is expected to host Pope Francis in Philadelphia next September for a global World Meeting of Families, and his criticisms tracked complaints by other conservatives who were upset with Francis for encouraging a freewheeling discussion among the 190 cardinals and bishops at the Vatican’s two-week Synod on the Family.
The 70-year-old archbishop, who was not part of the Rome summit, made his remarks in response to a question after a lecture event sponsored by the conservative journal First Things.
“I was very disturbed by what happened” at the synod, Chaput said. “I think confusion is of the devil, and I think the public image that came across was one of confusion.”
Francis convened the synod as part of a two-year discussion on the Catholic Church’s response to rapid changes in modern family dynamics. Media attention focused on proposals that would push the church to be more welcoming to gay Catholics, and to cohabiting couples and the divorced and remarried, who are currently barred from receiving Communion.
An interim report on the closed-door discussions included calls for the church to reject an “all or nothing” approach to families in “irregular” situations, such as those who are divorced or living together without being married.
The midpoint report also said there were “positive elements” in those relationships, as well as in the love between gay couples, and it said gay Catholics have “gifts and qualities” to offer the church and should be welcomed.
Such language, even if not final or official, was unprecedented for church leaders and it prompted a media tsunami. It also upset conservative churchmen at the synod, and they spent the second week engaged in a concerted effort to water down that language for the final report.
They largely succeeded, though Francis said that the church’s approach to gays and lesbians, and to divorced and remarried Catholics, should continue to be debated.
In his remarks on Monday, Chaput said the final synod report was an improvement. But he was still concerned that it did not go far enough in clearing up the confusion and clearly restating church teachings on marriage and homosexuality.
“None of us are welcomed on our own terms in the church. We are welcomed on Jesus’ terms,” he said. “That’s what it means to be a Christian. You submit yourself to Jesus and his teaching. You don’t re-create your own body of spirituality.”
Chaput also raised eyebrows when he urged the nation’s Catholic bishops to consider stopping the signing of civil marriage licenses for all couples in response to what he called the “new marriage regime” of same-sex civil marriage. Pennsylvania, along with more than 30 other states, now allows same-sex marriage.
By long-standing U.S. practice, a Catholic priest, like any licensed clergy, acts as an agent of the state when signing a couple’s marriage certificate.
“It’s hard to see how a priest or bishop could, in good conscience, sign a marriage certificate that merely identifies ‘Spouse A’ and `Spouse B,’ ” Chaput said in his prepared remarks.
“Refusing to conduct civil marriages now, as a matter of principled resistance, has vastly more witness value than being kicked out of the marriage business later by the government, which is a likely bet,” he said.
Chaput said he wasn’t necessarily endorsing that move yet, but “in the spirit of candor encouraged by Pope Francis,” he said the American bishops should “discuss and consider it as a real course of action.”
The idea of separating civil and sacramental marriage services has been floated by religious conservatives and some liberals, who saw denying civil marriage to same-sex couples as an injustice. But Chaput appears to be the most high-profile Catholic leader to raise the issue.
The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops meets for the fall meeting next month in Baltimore, and it was unclear whether Chaput will bring it up then, or whether the idea — which is a major break from tradition — would garner any support if he did.
Chaput’s lecture, titled “Strangers in a Strange Land,” focused on the theme that traditional believers are experiencing an internal exile akin to that of the ancient Israelites in Babylon.
Chaput said that the U.S. Supreme Court decision earlier this month not to review state appeals against gay marriage was a “tipping point” that confirmed that traditional believers are now a minority in society and on the defensive….
To read the original story, click here.
It’s good to have an Archbishop who is open and honest, and hates confusion as much as I do.
He is right that “confusion is of the devil, and … the public image that came across was one of confusion.”
Archbishop Chaput is not conservative; he is Faithful.
“None of us are welcomed on our own terms in the church.
We are welcomed on Jesus’ terms,” he said. “That’s what it means to be a Christian.
You submit yourself to Jesus and his teaching. You don’t re-create your own body of spirituality.” – Abp Chaput.
This quote needs repeating.
This is in response to Pete’s post: I agree! Abp. Chaput’s quote is excellent! We desperately need a Pope just like him!
What teaching does Pope Francis want debated ?
“Thou shall not commit Adultery” – GOD’s Commandment
Ex 20:14 ; Deut 5:18.
“Thou shall not covet thy Neighbor’s wife” – GOD’s Commandment
Ex 20:17 ; Deut 5.20.
Teachings of JESUS about divorce and remarriage –
Mk 10:6-12; Mt 5:32.
Teaching of JESUS about adultery, mercy, and required Repentance –
“Go and Sin NO more” Jn 8:11.
Teaching about homosexual acts:
Gen 19:1-29; Rom 1:24-27; 1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10; Jude 1:7
St Paul – 1 Cor 11:27-30 about condemnation for receiving Holy Communion unworthily.
CCC: ” 81 Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit.
And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its ENTIRETY the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit.
It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching. “
What teaching of the Church that 100% corresponds with Sacred Scripture does Pope Francis want debated ?
Regarding divorce and remarriage: CCC 1649, 1650, 1651;
Regarding homosexuality: CCC: 2357, 2358, 2359, & 2396;
Regarding sacrilege against the Body and Blood of our Lord, CCC: 2140;
Requirement for repentance: CCC: 2140; 1451;
Teaching regarding Scandal: CCC: 2285, 2286, 2287.
Everyone needs to read these to follow debates among the Clergy over the next several months.
See the footnotes in the CCC related as well.
Don’t forget CCC: 1650, 1651 Living in chaste continence.
When you take Caesar’s Coin in return for doing Caesar’s Evil for Profit – you become his servant, and Not God’s.
This is similar to Many Diocese having been forced out of providing Adoption services and other charitable works for the same failure to pander.
During Census 2010 I had arranged for the Diocese of Boise to permit training of Census Workers in Catholic School meeting and classrooms without charge, when they were not in use.
I was assured most sincerely that in doing so that Nothing Hateful towards the Church or its own Teachings would be acted out on Catholic Church Grounds.
However – the Gaystapo enforcers of the Abomination then introduced the ‘GLAAD’ Glossary in to Mandatory Census Training – which itself trashed the Pope and Magisterium in a crude and hateful manner for their alleged Thought Crimes of intolerant “Ism-Obia”…
Of course we were also assured that with Obamacare we could keep our current doctors, and that prices wouldn’t go up or service down – and the IRS didn’t target ‘enemies of the state’ either… Much.
Regarding Divorced and Remarried Catholics –
(I am divorced and remarried, and have no issues with the Church. I own my own sins and take full responsibility for them. My civil wife and I would be dishonest if we tried to prove our first marriages were not valid. Therefore because I have come back to God, and love God, and love my civil spouse and myself – with our goals of helping each other get to Heaven – we have chosen option #2 in accord with CCC 1650. It can be done if you put God first.
Catholics who are divorced and civilly remarried have 3 choices.
– – – 1. If they believe that their first marriage was NOT VALID, they should contact their Diocese office of Marriage Tribunal for further information and needed forms.
(Remembering that truthfulness is important because we can deceive other human beings, but not Jesus at our particular judgment.)
– – – 2. They can repent and live as brother and sister, and receive the Sacraments. (CCC #1650)
– – – 3. They can choose not to repent, and continue committing adultery with someone else’s valid spouse, and NOT receive the Sacraments, but must raise their children in the Catholic Faith. (CCC # 1651)
Dear Al…I am so proud of you and your wife! May our Lord continue to bless you both and your family. I know I speak for many here when I say that what you have chosen to do, though diffiult, is as incense to God, pleasing and fragrant to the Church. It is not in vain. It is totally countercultural, and authentically Catholic! Having been in a similar situation at one time, I can only say that it was liberating not to be ruled by my illusory biological needs…and my relationship with Jesus was never better.
I second the appreciation for your decision, Al. Like Dana, I was in a similar circumstance and found that option 2 is very fruitful regarding the drawing down of grace and strength and the realization that IT CAN BE DONE despite the sexual slavery promoted by our current culture.
God bless you Al, Dana and Ann Malley! Your individual testimonies are truly appreciated and they were very much needed at the Family Synod. Thank you for courageously sharing them.
‘HEAVEN’ – Taken from the Catholic Encyclopedia
“Every man has an innate desire for perfect beatitude. Experience proves this. The sight of the imperfect goods of earth naturally leads us to form the conception of a happiness so perfect as to satisfy all the desires of our heart. But we cannot conceive such a state without desiring it. Therefore we are destined for a happiness that is perfect and, for that very reason, eternal; and it will be ours, unless we forfeit it by sin. A natural tendency without an object is incompatible both with nature and with the Creator’s goodness. The arguments thus far advanced prove the existence of heaven as a state of perfect happiness.
We are born for higher things, for the possession of God. This earth can satisfy no man, least of all the wise. “Vanity of vanities”, says the Scripture (Ecclesiastes 1:1); and St. Augustine exclaimed: “Thou hast made us for Thyself (O God) and our heart is troubled till it rests in Thee.”
Catherine, thank you…that was a great quote and utterly profound.
…I wish the Synod had representation from married couples who, for whatever reason, are abstaining for the love of God. It seems very one sided that those married folks given leeway to speak were all for opening things up and stressing the nature of sexual intimacy in marriage.
That last part is a given. Pretty common sense despite the so called ‘revelation’ of intimacy that was streamed across the media. But what about the spiritual revelation of what is often the fruit of a cross willingly carried? The push always seems to be ‘it’s too hard’ ‘too much to ask’ which is absurd as that ‘incapacity’ is countermanded daily by regular folks quietly carrying the cross.
In fairness, I have to include the last phrase when I quote you Malley: “It seems very one sided that those married folks given leeway to speak were all for opening things up and stressing the nature of sexual intimacy in marriage.That last part is a given.”
Like really, you even have to question whether marriage ought to be a place of sexual intimacy? And when exceptional circumstances, such apparently as yours, come into play, you resent the majority view? How about, instead, look to others with unusual circumstances and offer mercy and support for them as well, the same kind of mercy and support you are asking for yourself? How about ask for representation from other exceptional circumstances similar to your own, in which partnerships can’t be recognized as marriages within the Catholic Church?
My opinion: If we could all come to realize that these issues separate us, often needlessly, there might be much more unity in the Body of Christ.
You miss the point entirely, diff mous. The reality of which I was speaking is the that of graces received when a cross – one that we don’t like – is imposed. It’s amazing what a body can do or refrain from when girded strengthened by grace.
That said, you assume much about the facts surrounding my marriage. Fact is, you don’t know where my marriage was validated or by whom.
So why not give over your wedgie about the Society and discuss the issue here. Your obsessive trolling against anyone speaking the truth displays a lack of discernment. For even if I attended a diocesan parish, I’d be saying the same thing, diff mous.
From what you post you seem to be all for opening up the doors to mercy. If that is so, then why are your posts so unmerciful? I fear the answer is that you are merely attempting to silence what you consider the opposition to your mercy campaign. To include? I don’t know what, for the mercy isn’t springing from your heart with regard to me, no, but most assuredly for the ‘other situations’ you seem to want to champion.
I think you miss the point entirely.
Of course I don’t know where or who “validated” you marriage. But it is public record, is it not?
Regardless, I was referring only to what you had recently offerred about your marital state. Are you now rescinding those posts? Purely for the sake of becoming argumentative? Or do you stand behind your posts and your marital situation. You confuse us all because you change your story oh so often!
You think I am unmerciful about those “speaking the truth”. Odd that you take that view when I am offering you mercy, even when you seem so slimy about the “truth”.
What are you even talkin about?: “So why not give over your wedgie about the Society and discuss the issue here.”
Are you experiencing a wedgie? I am not. And what “Society” are you talking about, homie? What issues do you want to get real with here girl?
Thank you Ann Malley for seeing right through a different mous’s droppings.
a. d. m. wrote, “If we could all come to realize that these issues separate us, often needlessly, there might be much more unity in the Body of Christ.” = IOW gradually loosen up that rigid Doctrine and we’ll all get along.
Doctrine and Pastoral Practice Together Win Souls
“Truly pastoral practices hold firm to the truths and disciplines of the Church while applying them effectively in concrete situations that present themselves. It seeks doctrinal penetration and not doctrinal abandonment. Placing doctrine and canon law in opposition to pastoral practices and mercy demonstrates an inability or unwillingness to recognize that these help to actualize the love of Christ and not prevent it.
Naturally, doctrine and the laws of the Church must always be presented in the most loving fashion. However, there is nothing pastoral in denying the teachings of the Church nor is it compassionate to break the laws of the Church.
Though the Extraordinary Synod on the Family is now over, this erroneous mentality that places the doctrinal and canonical against the pastoral and merciful continues and must be challenged vigorously, particularly as questions continue about the possible reform of the annulment procedures and as preparations begin for the 2015 Ordinary Synod.
All bishops, priests, and even the lay faithful must work, gently but firmly, to correct this destructive error and to affirm especially the truth about marriage and the family.”
And boy are the mice dropping, Catherine. Stinky.
Yes, mous, meeces, mice, your brand of mercy is part of public record. The message is the same – don’t speak the truth or we’ll use whatever we ‘think’ we can to silence whatever is too consistent or follows the precepts of the Faith outside of obedience to the thought of now.
God speed with that.
I appreciate very much the very strong desire to live according to Christ, and the strength it must take, but isn’t that living in the near occasion of sin?
Not just a strong desire, YFC. That said, if there were no kids involved, living apart would have been required. But recourse to St. Joseph is invaluable to maintain purity…. cannot explain it save to say, “It’s ALL real. Grace, God, intercession, etc.” God shows His strength (and ultimate love) in our complete weakness.
Much of that was learned via carrying the cross that so many – including myself back in the day – would convince their brothers/sisters is impossible to do. Not so.
Hey Ann Malley, how about extending that same Josephine philosophy towards those same sex couples who marry. It might go a long way towards our mutual understanding.
It saddens me that you don’t have a strong desire to live according to Christ, Ann Malley.
It’s a conviction, YFC, not just a ‘strong’ desire which can be applied to all manner of sin, too. That said, it is not a matter of ‘me’ extending anything to those who are in homosexual relationships. If it were, things might be different, but ‘mutual understanding’ cannot trump doing one’s utmost to live the Faith.
Ann, if I’m ever in California I’ll definitely meet you for coffee…we would probably have a meal like “My Dinner with Andre” and talk til closing. haha
No kidding, we could talk to closing. Who knows, maybe we’ll get an invite to the 2015 Synod and keep everyone up with stories of life on the ground. Could be fun!
Keep people up, Ann Malley? Very likely we’d put them to sleep at the synod :)
Also, haven’t you heard? God loves surprises! I was raised to believe He was omniscient. omnipresent …pretty hard to surprise, but we could always present our tired stories in fresh, new ways. I grew up in the fifties, so I know all there is to know about ” new and improved” and especially progress….”At GE, progress is our business.” Rocket fins on our cars, bras like cones on space ships. Maybe we should teach our husbands the tango! Mine is in such a rut of Buddy Holly and the jitterbug.
Sounds like you need that coffee.
Rocket fins, cone bras and Buddy Holly – that says it ALL, Dana. And I’m thinking there might be some serious flash fiction in your future. Seriously!
God bless :)
Ann, you know that you and I differ intellectually on a lot of matters. But I must say that your living out your present marriage in accord with Church teaching–and the thought-provoking words you’ve used to describe that very much moved me. Hats off to you, my ol’ sparring partner! And God bless you and your family.
Tried and true remedies are often best , Fr. B. Even if we don’t think so at the time. We’re just such a sound byte society, conditioned to believe that we need Everything and Now, Now, Now, that we don’t have the patience for the things that bear the fruit – the kind worth eating.
God bless you, too.
…. also, Fr., I do not want to give the impression that I am in a second marriage. That is not the case. I’ve been married to the same man for 27 years.
Suffice to say, there were circumstances surrounding our situation, however, that called for abstinence.
Thank you for the clarification. I’m sorry I misunderstood. But, much more importantly, THANK YOU AND YOUR SPOUSE for your heroic decision to live your conjugal lives according to Jesus’ teachings! I need to say it again– God bless you, your spouse and your entire family! [Not to take away anything of the above, is it possible for you to find a parish where the TLM is celebrated? I want you one with us completely!]
OR they can divorce and remarry their original spouse-or not.
Random thoughts of Bishop Tobin of RI
“ — The concept of having a representative body of the Church voting on doctrinal applications and pastoral solutions strikes me as being rather Protestant. “- Bishop Tobin
“ Pope Francis is fond of “creating a mess.” Mission accomplished.” – Bishop Tobin
“— Relax. God’s still in charge.” – Bishop Tobin
As others have stated:
It is NOT pastoral, merciful, or charitable to confirm, affirm or approve anyone choosing to obstinately live in mortal sin of any kind.
Un-repented mortal sins send Souls to Hell for eternity.
CCC: “1451 Among the penitent’s acts contrition occupies first place.
Contrition is sorrow of the soul
and detestation for the sin committed,
together with the resolution not to sin again.”
The Fall General Assembly of the USCCB, is November 10-13, in Baltimore.
And this is usually televised by EWTN.
Mark your calendars.
It is unfortunate that some of the USCCB discussions are in closed sessions.
And therefore we will be unable to know the heretical Bishops from the faithful Bishops in all discussions.
We deserve to know the truth.
Transparency is not an agenda item at this time.
I would wager that quite a number of Catholics (and even non-Catholics who “watch” the Catholic Church) are stunned at what’s coming out of Rome these days….Apparently (from the Catholic news…) marriage, divorce and re-marriage are okay now–all in the name of “compassion!”
Forget the 6th and 9th Commandments, forget what Jesus said to the “woman caught in adultery.” (“Has anyone condemned you?….Neither will I condemn you. GO, AND SIN NO MORE.”)
We have the GREATER law of “GRADUALNESS” !
What’s happening in the Church?….”When the Son of Man comes, do you think He will find faith on the earth?”
Never before have I had even a thought that these words of Jesus might apply to Cardinals and Bishops in HIS CHURCH!
God help us all and deliver us from the snares of the evil one !
Keep praying for the Cardinals and Bishops in this Preliminary Synod and the 2015 Synod next year.
The synod proved one thing, we not only have cafeteria Catholics, we have cafeteria clerics. (Heretics and those in Apostacy).
CCC: ” 2089 …
HERESY is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;
APOSTACY is the total repudiation of the Christian faith. …”
Well, People, if everyone believes (as they must) that scripture was largely avoided in the Synod, and that “confusion” was created by the feminized language on homosexual “relationships”, then do something about it:
1. Withhold at least a significant portion of weekly donations to your local Church.
2. Designate, to the pastor (cc; local bishop) that the withheld portion of your money is going to a Traditional Catholic Order (e.g., the FSSP, of Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest are a couple of suggestions).
3. Send detailed letters to your bishops (cc: Vatican leadership) demanding straight and true teachings on all subjects, including sexual ethics.
4. Send a letter to the Pope (cc: Cardinals dealing with clergy and seminarians) demanding an end to the focus of the Church on homosexual issues. The Church is heavily invested in homosexual leadership, and it shows.
Funny how Francis said that the Church was too directed to discussing issues on abortion and homosexuality when he was invested as Pope. Yet, his reign is greatly devoted to sexual issues, including homosexuality and in lifting centuries long prohibitions on fornication, contraception and the like. Make no mistake, these signals of change come from the top, and this madness has nothing to do with the Holy Ghost.
Great idea from a great Shepherd of The Church. Priests should not function as agents of The State. Priests should only administer The Sacrament of Holy Matrimony, not a state certified function.
I wonder if an attorney could comment on the idea of priests refusing to sign marriage licenses,perform ceremonies. I believe that there is a category called “clergy malpractice”….and I would hate to see any faithful Catholic priest be sued….but as we all know…there are folks who would love to take another shot at the Church
Is it any wonder that the Gospa of Medjugorje has been asking the faithful to pray for our shepherds? pray for our priests?
In view of this strong emphasis on the homosexual issues that this “synod” is preoccupied with, is it possible that Msgr. Lefebvre could could have been rightly concerned by the present state of our Church?
Is it possible that our Pope is being led by other than the Holy Ghost? Did this synod contain any of the Holy Scriptures condemning homosexuality or adultery? Is Frances a loose cannon, with an fends? Faithful priests and Bishops, keep your eyes open.
(CORRECTION) I meant to say “agenda” My apologies.
NO. Please keep your heretical ideas off this website.
The question does arise……what about heterosexual couples who have been living together as husband and wife….and sexually intimate with each other even though they are not married in the Church….these couples want to have their civil marriages validated in the Sacrament of Matrimony…..it would be interesting to hear Archbishop Chaput on this question…should priests also refuse to assist these couples?
What do you think we’ve been writing about? The Church most assuredly DOES ‘assist’ these couples the same way she does all fornicators and adulterers…they go to confession and repent, live as brother and sister after they’ve gone through pre-marriage guidance just as any other couple wanting to get married. By the tone of your post, you make it sound like the Church has it in for these couples. We’re all sinners. We just have different ways of indulging in them but all are treated in the same way by our beloved Church…your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more!
and marry, after pre-marriage guidance. Sorry, left that out.
He is not talking about not having a sacramental marriage.
This situation is perfect. The couple is already married legally so the the priest convalidates the marriage which is recorded by the Church, not by the government.
In the Catholic Church Marriage is a Sacrament, just like Baptism, Penance, Holy Orders, etc. I agree with the bishop that the Church ought to take itself out of the partnership that it now has with the secular government in registering sacramental marriages that they confer, or rather witness, for the faithful. If you get my drift, let me give a brief (I promise) explanation.
Since Marriage is a Sacrament in the Church, preparation for it, and the witness of it should stay within the Church. The couple profers the sacrament on eachother, the Church acts as a witness to the confering, blesses and registers that sacrament of the couple within the Church. When the Church breaks their partnership with the secular government, we will free ourselves of the encumberance of having to abide by the rules of the laws of the secular government. We would be able to confer the Sacrament within the Church, to Catholics who have prepared themselves according to the Church, and the Faithful who go thru the process would be truly prepared, truly understanding of the sacrament, and willing to abide by the guidelines of what that sacrament calls for within the Church. The Church would be strengthened, the Faithful would (hopefully) be truly dedicated to the Church and Her teaching on the Sacraments (all of them) and we wouldn’t have to be worried about whether the same-sex partnership would have to be conferred in our Churches.
Dear Life Lady, this is in deed a solution offerred by many who are pushing for same sex marriage, and is the most common way marriages are dealt with in Europe. There is nothing novel about what you propse, but it is a very good way to help educate people about the differences between Sacramental Matrimony and civil marriage licenses. There is tremendous confusion about that in the United States.
Having said that, no religious person has ever had to marry two people they didn’t want to marry, they won’t ever have to, and civil liberties attorneys are at the ready should some local authority claim otherwise. Catholic priests have never been forced to marry two Jews, two atheists, or even two Catholics from their own parishes if they didn’t want to.
YFC, Ministers or Priests should not have to go to Court to practice their Faith of not marrying those choosing to live in Mortal Sin.
And that is what they said about not being forced to provide adoptive babies to homosexuals. That it would never happen and no one would be forced.
Another homosexual lie.
That is why Catholic adoptive services had to close in several States.
SAM, you and I agree i think. Ministers and priests should NOT have to go to court to marry people they don’t want to marry. This is the way it has been since our founding as a country and this is the way it should be. There is a case, instigated by YOUR side of the debate, that seeks to challenge that, and shift the debate to the other side. If the case brought by YOUR side of the same sex marriage debate gets its way into the court MY side will come and defend YOUR side. How about that?
A Catholic priest is forbidden to assist at many weddings not just those of gay couples. Some are supported by the state, such as not marrying those who are underage or who are already married to someone else, but a priest also should refuse those who he does not feel are psychologically or emotionally mature, those known to be impaired by alcohol or drug use, those being coerced or pressured into marriage etc, also if they are not Catholic or Christian he may refuse to assist or may have to get permission from the bishop. Also if he feels the couple is not entering marriage with the intent to stay married, be faithful and have children.
He’s right; Catholic priests have no business signing marriage licenses.
Yes!! If you take the King’s shilling, you must march to the Kings’s drum. The same holds true of the income tax exemtion for churches. Tell them to put it in a remote place and stand boldly for the right and for truth and let no man threaten you with the loss of money. Your immortal soul is worth far more than money. Those who fail to stand for what is right and who are concerned about money will receive their reward. For truth prevails and evil perishes, be sure that you do not perish with it.
Catholics should not be FORCED to have to get married twice. – Once as a Sacrament, and then civilly to keep the government happy – for their legal requirements.
why not? Do you actually adhere to the first amendment, or do you not? Or do you just prefer to bluster about in your catholic priviledge, assuming everyone should just get out of your way as a catholic priviledged citizen?
YFC, you can marry your dog too. After all isn’t that your civil right ?
No addison, I cannot marry my dog. My dog cannot sign the marriage license. My dog is not a person. However, Republican judges on the Supreme Court believe that corporations are people, even people of faith. Can I marry my corporation? Ask your Republican judges who decided that corporations are people. Or ask Governor “Coporations are people too, my friends!” Romney. I’m sure he would marry his corporation if his Mormon religion still allowed multiple wives…
European countries have been doing this for a long time.
Dave N, why should Catholics and those of other religious faiths who get married in Churches, Synagogues, or Mosques have to bow down to active Homosexuals and other deviants and have to get married twice ?
– Once for their religious beliefs and again a second time for governmental acceptance of the marriage ?
To show that how the Church defines marriage and how the State defines marriage are two very different things.
Dave N., the state doesn’t care what anyone does.
Next one will be able to marry his dog, since that is his civil right.
Dave N. you did not answer the question.
Why should people of various faiths have to get married twice so that homosexuals will not sue their Churches, Synogogues, and Mosques ?
Homosexuals should not be in a position to dicgtate to any of us.
Churches do not have to marry anyone. They don’t have to marry anyone they don’t want to. Catholic priests, for example. don’t marry two jews, two athiests, or even two Catholic members of their own parish if they are not ready. No religious person will be forced to marry two people of the same sex. So please, calm down.
exactly the point. well. sort of exactly the point.
” FACE IT .. and DEAL WITH IT! 10-27 ” –
Many Cardinals and Bishops do not know the “Catechism of the
Catholic Church, Second Edition, as evidenced at the Synod.
Of course then they do not encourage others to read it.
Far too many Seminaries do not use the CCC as a required Text.
And instead of teaching what the Bible states, they teach what some theologians think they state or want the Seminarians to believe.
If Pope Francis wanted to do the best service possible for the Church members it would be to REQUIRE every Single SEMINARY world-wide to use the Bible and CCC as REQUIRED TEXTS in first and second year.
(The Pope could require this Motu Proprio.
And all Bishops should insist that their Diocese Seminarians are required to study them in full, or send their seminarians to a Seminary that teaches the Catholic Faith – via Bible and CCC. )
Both need to be studied cover to cover, before any other Theology is studied.
If Pope Frances wanted to do the best service for the Church, he would reaffirm in the strongest terms the Catholic , nay ,Biblical teaching on adultery and sodomy and cease to have anything to do with the perversions of the world. By being “tolerant” or “compassionate” souls are led to Hell and the witness of the Church is diminished. He does no one any favors. Powerful medicine is what is needed. He needs to start “Poping”. and acting like a Leader. War is tough, but that is what we are engaged in, and so far, we are losing.
hosemonkey, it all starts at the SEMINARY level if you want to reach the most people throughout the world.
When Bishops and Priests do not accurately and completely know their Faith, they can not accurately pass it on to others.
ALL Seminary Students should be required to read the Bible and CCC from cover to cover for themselves from cover to cover within the first two years of study.
Not merely the interpretation of some professor who may accidently or purposely teach error.
MACK is 100% correct – Pope Francis can absolutely REQUIRE this by publishing MOTU PROPRIO – that EVERY Seminary MUST use as a required text a Catholic (approved) Bible and the CCC for the first two years of study.
Anna, you make the assumption that seminarians don’t study the Bible? Where do you get that idea? Have you not googled the curriculum of the various seminaries around the country? Are you listening to propaganda? What do you think they study in two years of philosophy and two years of theology and the other courses they take to get a Masters in Divinity? Everything they study is based on the Bible and the CCC. The basic curriculum developed by the Vatican for all nations is used for seminaries in this country. What do you think goes on in the formation program that is not based on the Bible?
I have checked it out.
Unfortunately, heretics like Fr. Barron who believe “we can hope that all people are saved” in direct contradiction of the words of Jesus, head up Seminaries. (Barron heads up the one in Chicago.)
They teach their own personal beliefs, rather than requiring the Bible (from cover to cover) and teachings of the Church.
Further why did you not mention the CCC, Bob One ?
Anna, if you look at the entire curriculum for seminaries in the U.S., all the courses involve study of the CCC in one form or another. Some seminaries actually have a separate course for it, but it is woven into all courses from what I understand.
The book “Render Unto Caesar” by Arch-Biship Chaput should be required reading in all schools, even the ‘catholic’ universities – if only for its unvarnished insights in to the world of today’s Caesar.
Don’t Be Fooled, Pope Francis Will Never Capitulate
10.20.2014 Commentary by Paul Bois
When it comes to Pope Francis, the left has created for themselves a tooth fairy and the right has created a bogeyman.
A few rips on capitalism, one wildly misinterpreted quote regarding homosexual orientation, a botched mid-term report at the synod followed by a homily completely taken out of context, and suddenly everyone thinks Barack Obama now sits in the chair of Peter and the “gates of Hades” have prevailed against the church.
But we have all been been duped by a left-wing media intent on pushing a false narrative in hopes of frightening Christians into silence on the issue of same-sex marriage so militant activists can run roughshod over the trembling protests.
The Catholic Church under Pope Francis will not capitulate on the issue of same-sex marriage nor will it change its teaching on homosexual acts. It won’t happen-end of story.
The Catholic Church spans all seven continents with an estimated congregation of 1.2 billion people in virtually every country.
While the Catholic Church has lost its prominence in the West due to cultural acceptance of homosexuality and gay marriage, it compensates with growing congregations in Africa, Asia, and Eastern Europe. Homosexuality and gay marriage are met in those cultures with a resounding “no,” and that also includes majorities in Central and South America…
All are Welcome, sort of – provided of course you fall in certain categories. Ahem
” Template for priests on how to welcome ‘gays’ in your parish
There is a special version of this helpful template for Cardinal Kasper, in which case an exception can be added at the end:
“…Therefore, I hope you all feel welcome, apart from any Africans.
We don’t listen to you and you can’t tell us what to do.
Your views are not wanted and your participation is not welcome here.
By the way if anyone asks you whether I just said that, I didn’t. In the unlikely event I have been recorded, if you have recorded me saying that, I have powerful friends in journalism, so don’t take me on.
I can destroy you, hear me? Yes! Destroy you!”
“Fear NOT those that can destroy the body, rather fear those that CAN destroy the Soul! Our Lord and Savior!
May God have mercy on an amoral Amerika and His Church!
Viva Cristo Rey!
Yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founding Director
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc
I suspect that Arch Chaput ( Not the greatest bishop himself by any means – having met and talked with him)
is an admirer of Pope Francis.
He would be disturbed to see how all you Francis bashes have taken his questioning words and put two and two together to make nine-. You are way off base about something you can only guess at.How dare you second guess this Pope.
Does it never dawn on you all that there is, in Francis Pontificate, all kinds of skulldugery, deception, subderfuge and game playing that you and I can not possibly understand. Pope Benedict in his humility knew he could not handle it and past on the baton believing that the Holy Spirit would find the right man to confront these evil forces.
Praise, bless and pray for Pope Francis like you’ve never done before for any Pope.
Fr. Malachi Martin SJ anticipated all this many years ago. Now it has all come to pass and Pope Francis is battling with principalities and powers in an effort to keep the ” Ship of Faith afloat.” He has all the qualities needed to outwit these evil forces. I for one have every confidence in him.
I am seventy years of age. I have never seen such momentous times in our Church like what we have today.
The Pope speaks for himself – by his public words and public actions – many of which are contradictory and confusing.
Michael P. Mc Crory, any Pope can act on his own authority and have Bishops removed from Office per Code of Canon Law via accepting a resignation, transfer, removal, or privation.
His personal appointment of featured speakers Kasper and Danneels at the Synod speak for himself. And he appointed the Secretary of the Synod, etc.
He also just appointed Blasé Cupich to head up the Chicago Diocese, and Cupich has publically stated that those living in mortal sin should be able to receive Holy Communion (just like Donald Wurel).
Christ did not teach UNITY at ANY COST.
In fact JESUS let many of his disciples go rather than change his teaching or change his vocabulary. 6:66.
Truth is truth, and must not be compromised.
What you call pope bashers for the most part are just concerned that in all this confusion and stress the teachings of Christ are somehow being subsumed into what the pope thinks…I feel there’s just way too much of Pope Francis and not Jesus in all this. Blame it on the press, or secular bloggers etc. but when a pope tells us to go and make a mess when the world is in disarray, Christians are being tortured and slaughtered around the globe, American courts ruling against traditional marriages etc. the last thing we need to be doing is adding more messes. That’s just what they did in the sixties…make a mess of Church teaching. Chaos does not come from God. Confusion is never a tool used by Jesus. I do not care what anyone says to the contrary…a pope never tells people to go make messes. He does not sow confusion. Men do not marry men and we do not try to make it more palatable for them by being more welcoming. It just goes to show that people do not learn from history or experience.
Good job Dana, – ” Confusion is never a tool used by Jesus. I do not care what anyone says to the contrary…a pope never tells people to go make messes.”
But unfortunately this one did, and it was reported in Catholic as well as secular publications, including his Vatican Press. World Youth Day 2013.
Just because a Pope says something, does not mean he cannot make errors.
No one said all Popes, all Cardinals, or all Bishops will get to Heaven either.
Just a reminder – St Paul Rebuked St. Peter (first Pope) – Galatians 2:11
(If it had originally been up to Peter, only Jews and those converting to Judaism would be eligible to become Christians.)
Gary is right – good job, Dana. Very well said.
Thank you Dana! And Gary you are correct. “Confusion is never a tool used by Jesus.” Pope Francis even called the Church a “hospital” for the wounded and for sinners, which is true. This is all the more reason for clarity.
Can you imagine how many dead bodies or injured people there would be if a chief surgeon also instructed the staff of surgeons under his charge with such ambiguity or confusing mixed messages? Each surgeon would now be allowed their very own opinion while ignoring perhaps specific important standards of cleanliness or other well recognized procedures. Spiritual malpractice, is even deadlier than medical malpractice, because it can cost someone their Eternal life. If the relatives and families of the deceased or injured victims of medical malpractice requested an explanation with clarity in practice and procedures then these family members would never be viewed as Chief Surgeon bashers. God never asked St. Peter or the apostles to gradually anesthetize the normal brain activity that allows a person the ability and the right to discern danger.
Typical Job Description of a Chief Surgeon in the Hospital
by Stephanie Reid
A chief surgeon manages a number of staff members.
A chief surgeon in a hospital holds a leadership position, overseeing the day-to-day tasks and activities of the surgical services component. The chief is also responsible for directing the hospital’s pursuits with regard to research, personnel, education programs and clinical care. This job requires knowledge of administrative procedures, quality measurement and regulations related to the practice of medicine.
Dana, the Pope talks about Jesus every day.
What has the Pope done that has confused you?
Anonymous, I have saved every day’s homily and public statements from the Pope since he was elected. You can find some of them posted on the Vatican web site.
Many times he says one thing to one group, and the opposite to another group- which causes confusion for everyone. It’s kind of schizophrenic. People in Europe are starting to wonder if there are mental issues.
It would be best for him to just stick to the Doctrine of the Faith .
“Go make a mess”, – Francis, World Youth Day 2013
You will have to start reading for yourself, there is just too much to print here. Don’t be lazy -READ.
Pope Francis the Sinner: Why he Preaches Love Above All
If you want to get to know the real Francis then don’t listen to sensationalist headlines, go directly to the good stuff.
Another call for clarity!
NASHVILLE, TN (WSMV) –
Father Joseph Breen, pastor of Nashville’s St. Edward Catholic Church, is perhaps the best-known church leader in all of Nashville and is definitely one of the most controversial.
In the same sentence, you can call him popular and beloved and also three-times reprimanded by his superiors.
Breen, a Nashville native, is one of nine children from a family full of priests.
And in a few weeks, he is retiring after 53 remarkable years as a priest, including 30 at St. Edward.
Breen is a man of ritual and a man of great compassion. Kindness radiates from him.
But don’t be fooled. This is as outspoken a priest as you will ever meet.
“Until we have married priests, we can pretend and whatever you want to do, but the church will continue to falter,” Breen said.
He speaks about the topic of birth control.
“We say you want to be a responsible Christian person, then some form of birth control, so long as it’s not abortive,” he said.
He even speaks about gay marriage.
“We have all been redeemed. There’s no difference between the people I know that are homosexuals and those that are heterosexual. What makes them God’s people, what makes them healthy is the ability to love and be loved,” he said.
Read more: https://www.wsmv.com/story/25541332/nashville-priest-offers-revealing-farewell-interview-before-retirement#ixzz3HZMhSiYW
I think what many Catholics of today fail to understand, is the difference between a mere civil marriage ceremony, with no religious obligations, not even mentioning anything about “God,” and the Catholic Sacrament of Holy Matrimony– a definite religious Sacrament, in which Christ’s Life-Giving GRACE is at the heart of the Marriage– and the married couple has definite religious commitments and obligations, lifelong! So many people of today, are not taught what a Sacrament really is, and that it is very serious! Many people just think of Marriage and children in secular terms— with no mention of God! The Pope should realize this, and maybe set up strong, worldwide Catechism programs, to teach his people! A church is also not a social club to enjoy attending, where everyone is warmly welcomed– but yet, there are no religious teachings nor responsibilities to Christ!
Linda Maria, if Catholics have to get married twice, many will simply skip the religious ceremony.
That is what has happened in European Countries.
This is in reply to Tom’s post to me. Yes, Tom, many European “Catholics” have lost their faith, even faith in God! But are they truly Catholics, sincere followers of Christ? Have they been correctly taught their Faith, since Vatican II?? Do they truly want to base their marriages and families on God, and on the holy Sacrament of Matrimony? Why go to Mass and call yourself “Catholic,” if not?? Perhaps Word War II, as well as Modernism, and Vatican II– have ripped to pieces, the souls of these people! The core of the Catholic parish, is the Catholic Marriage and Family! By contrast– in some countries of Eastern Europe, where the Church was brutally persecuted by the Communists, Catholic and Orthodox believers have become very strong, and have treasured their Faith, and salvaged as much of their Faith as they could, despite horrible circumstances!
I agree with the first post of Kenneth Fisher. Our Church leaders must properly use their own Canon Law, and not just “pick and choose” which Canons to use, according to personal whims, and big excuses! That includes, particularly– Canon 915! Yes, even our better Church leaders– are still, sadly— not faithful enough, to Jesus Christ!!
” Canon 915 Those who have been excommunicated or interdicted after the imposition or declaration of the penalty
and others obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin
are not to be admitted to holy communion. ”
Instead some high ranking clergy participate in the Sacrilege themselves by providing those in the state of public mortal sin the Body and Blood of our Lord;
and commit the additional mortal sin of Scandal.
Condemnation for Receiving Holy Communion unworthily – 1 Cor 27-29.
CCC: 2285 Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized.
It prompted our Lord to utter this curse:
” Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.”
Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office
are obliged to teach and educate others.
Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing. ”
CCC: ” 1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:
– by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
– by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
– by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
– by protecting evil-doers. ”
Wonder how Donald Wuerl, Blasé Cupich and others justify their actions !
It is not pastoral, charitable or merciful to help send Souls to Hell.
‘Principled Resistance’ to Gay Marriage: Refusal to Sign Civil Marriage Licenses
10-30-14 -By Lauretta Brown
(CNSNews.com) – Catholic priests could “refuse to conduct civil marriages now as a matter of principled resistance” to gay marriage, Philadelphia Archbishop Charles J. Chaput said last week.
“A friend recently suggested that the Church should get out of the civil marriage business altogether,” Chaput related in his October 20th First Things Erasmus Lecture in New York.
“In a way it makes sense. It’s hard to see how a priest or bishop could in good conscience sign a marriage certificate that merely identifies Spouse A and Spouse B. That’s happening now,” he said.
“This dramatizes in a concrete way the fact that we face some very hard choices in a new marriage regime,” Chaput stated.
“By long-standing U.S. practice, a Catholic priest, like any licensed clergy, acts as an agent of the state when signing a couple’s marriage certificate,” the National Catholic Reporter notes.
“Refusing to conduct civil marriages now as a matter of principled resistance has vastly more witness value than being kicked out of the marriage business later by the government, which is a likely bet – or so the reasoning goes,” the Philadelphia prelate added.
However. the archbishop added that “having said that, I don’t necessarily agree with this approach, but in a spirit of candor encouraged by Pope Francis, I hope our nation’s bishops will see the need to discuss and consider it as a real course of action, as a possibility.