The following comes from a September 5 story in the New York Times.
The inscribed granite stones that form the Walk of Faith outside the Crystal Cathedral here were supposed to last forever, sustained in perpetuity by the thousands of dollars churchgoers paid for them. Or so parishioners were told.
But like so much else at the Crystal Cathedral, the stones, many of them memorials to dead loved ones, have become expendable since the church, founded by the Rev. Robert Schuller, filed for bankruptcy protection three years ago.
The Roman Catholic Diocese of Orange, which bought the enormous glass and steel church last year, has begun ripping out the memorial stones as it begins major renovations to modernize the campus and convert the nondenominational megachurch to a Catholic place of worship. Over the next several years, most of the 1,800 stones will be removed, diocese officials said, and there are no plans to reinstall them. Instead, digital photos of the stones are now on display at a diocese-sponsored Web site.
Once a source of pride and a place to commemorate departed relatives, the Walk of Faith has now become yet another indignity for former Crystal Cathedral parishioners who devoted time and money to a church campus that is no longer theirs.
Twice, Judy De Clercq paid more than $2,000 to have a personalized stone installed on the walk, first in 1996 after her husband died, and again in 2010 after the death of her son.
Her family advised her not to buy the second stone for her son, because she lives on Social Security benefits. But she still visits the stone regularly, even though, at 88, she walks with a cane.
“The thought of them being dug up just sends me into tears,” Ms. De Clercq said, crying as she spoke. “I don’t even know if I’m going to live through this. I’ve just been so devastated.”
The cathedral was the creation of Dr. Schuller, the founder of the Sunday “Hour of Power,” which for more than a decade was the most-watched religious television broadcast. But by the time his organization filed for bankruptcy protection, the church had become overburdened by debt from vanity building projects, changes in the religious broadcasting industry and a deep rift in the church leadership over the line of succession….
The diocese has announced that those who purchased stones would be able to come and claim them. But at 100 pounds each, they will not be easy for someone like Ms. De Clercq to take home.
She now questions whether the cemetery where her husband and son are buried will indeed remain ecumenical, despite the diocese’s assurances. The balloons and artificial flowers that she used to occasionally leave on their graves have been banned — only fresh flowers are permitted now. Even the American flag she put there on Independence Day was removed, she said….
To read the entire story, click here.
This is a tough one. I am surprised these stones were moved. There was really no need to move them, unless they are going to sell new stones to replace them.
At least they are archived on-line for perpetuity. The concerns about the cemetery are unfounded.
I still thank God the Catholic Church was able to purchase this magnificent campus. Thanks be to God!
This happens all the time with the changing demographics of communities. Parishioners GIFT/Donate to Churches all the time (new organs, bells, pews, chairs, confessionals, stain glass windows, vestments), the list goes on and on. Families donate and the churches are SOLD. We never see articles about our Catholic Churches being sold and “poor widows” who GIFT. The Catholic Church is always a target from the secular media.
Your correct. With our country’s changing demographics, in 20 years the Crystal Cathedral might be a mosque.
Naw. You’re clearly ignorant of OC demographics. The number of Catholics is exploding in that diocese.
To:RB Rodda I believe you are missing the point here. Yes Catholics are growing in some areas of California, however those following Rev Schuller’s religious message is not. This is a shift in demographics. The responsibility of the flock lies w/the leaders of Rev. Schuller’s administration group. Not our Bishop. As for the mosque comment, who knows where our country will be in 20 years, not alone the small geographical area referred to as Orange County. Mr. Jackson may be on to something!
yes, manly immagrants, like the irish. italian german polish and others who gave their money to build saint patricks cathedral the shrine in washington d c. i hear robert schuller is gravely ill he is a good man i always enjoyed his program bishop sheen also visited and gave the address i never forgot that talk
thomas nawn, thanks for sharing the story about Bishop Sheen. Blessed Mother Teresa spoke there as well. We should remember that Robert Schuller wanted the cathedral sold to the Catholic Church.
Well, its not theirs anymore. why should they care what is done with it?
Those who deny the fullness of the truth are often “surprised” by the reality of circumstances that follow.
#1. R.B. Rodda says:
August 20, 2013 at 4:24 am
“I am a bit SURPRISED and concerned that it will take until early 2016 to reopen. Over 2.5 years to remodel? Christ Cathedral was originally built in less than half that time. ”
#2. R.B. Rodda says:
September 10, 2013 at 8:31 pm
“This is a tough one. I am SURPRISED these stones were moved. There was really no need to move them, unless they are going to sell new stones to replace them. I still thank God the Catholic Church was able to purchase this magnificent campus. Thanks be to God!”
Defintion of surprise
noun
1. an unexpected or astonishing event, fact, or thing. “the announcement was a complete surprise”
synonyms: shock, bolt from the blue, bombshell, revelation, rude awakening, eye-opener, wake-up call; More a feeling of mild astonishment or shock caused by something unexpected.
synonyms: astonishment, amazement, wonder, incredulity, bewilderment, stupefaction, disbelief More
denoting something made, done, or happening unexpectedly.
synonyms: astonish, amaze, startle, astound, stun, stagger, shock; More
astonished, amazed, astounded, startled, stunned, staggered, nonplussed, shocked, taken aback, stupefied, dumbfounded, dumbstruck, speechless, thunderstruck, confounded, shaken up; bowled over, flabbergasted, floored, flummoxed
unexpected, unforeseen, unpredictable;
astonishing, amazing, startling, astounding, staggering, incredible, extraordinary,
Synonyms
bombshell, jar, jaw-dropper, jolt, stunner, bolt from the blue (also bolt out of the blue)
Related Words
shock, thunderclap; eye-opener, revelation, shocker; amazement, marvel, wonder; fillip, kick, kicker, twist, wrinkle
You don’t need to pick on people. Be a Christian.
“You don’t need to pick on people. Be a Christian.”
Thank you for finally admitting that you should not have picked on those faithful priests who courageously upheld Church teaching on homosexuality. It was not Christian to pick on them and undermine Church teaching.
I don’t want to pick on you, either. Peace and love, R
Catherine is not picking on people. She is the one who conveys wisdom and common sense
Don’t worry when God calls you home…..no earthly possession will be able to come with your soul….
in Morelia, Mexico there is a beautiful Cathedral that once belonged to Catholics but now it is a place of worship owned by a Baptist church.
All over England are churches built by and for Catholics, ripped away by Protestants, and now largely ignored except by tourists. No doubt elsewhere in Europe as well.
Abeca, do you know the name of the city in Morelia where this has happened?
in philadelphia several beautiful catholic churches have been sold the older cities in america are changing, look at detroit with the beautiful cathedral and saint louis with the cathedral there just stunning aswell as the cathedral in philadelphia go on line and look at these churches they are so beautiful with alktars mosaics so grand they do not build them like that anymore
Tracy I posted you a comment but it was not allowed to go through……wait till another day or so and I will try to repost again…..I don’t know if this one will get through …..but I don’t recall the street name but it was located in Morelia near a tourist area, chocolate and coffee, gift shop. (they make their yummy chocolates there) My last post gave you a more detailed one but since I am not sure if this will go through, I just send a short brief one. The small Catholic building church(little Cathedral) said “Iglesia Baptista” or something like that. It was over 5 years ago or more since (actually more but don’t recall the year now)I last visited that area.
Thanks Abeca. I made a little mistake because I was confusing the city of Morelia with the state of Morelos. I see now that the city of Morelia is in the state of Michoacan. At any rate I imagine that there may be a newer, larger Catholic cathedral in Morelia or a city near by and that the smaller one was sold to the Baptists. These things do happen. Look at Los Angeles. The original cathedral is now a dance hall or something like that.
…to bad the stones were moved…..
They weren’t “parishioners” of a Catholic church so the stones should be removed.
You cannot be a parishoner in an non ecclessial Christian commune. These were just babtised people outside the Church that was Founded by Christ.
These days things are so bad we have to examine the rite of babtism for these non ecclesial Christian communities to figure out if they have been babtised when they find the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Such a Christian Attitude!
For a church with so much emphasis on tradition and continuity, I am very surprised that more creative minds didn’t deal with this issue. This is a sad, sad story.
I can imagine the hue and cry that would be emitted if the shoe were on the other foot.
Read history, Jim. It has happened to Catholic churches countless times, and far worse has happened when the churches were violently taken over by warring Protestants than stones in a walkway being removed and offered to past donors who were never told they owned them. When this particular group of Protestants mismanaged their donations and brought the church down into financial ruin, they created the situation that is grieving this donor and others, not the Catholic Church, who is treating them with dignity as they create a new Catholic cathedral out of the mess the previous owners left behind.
Jim Mcrea Maryanne Leonard is correct. Mr. Jim why do your comments come off as an enemy of the faith?
To criticize this move makes me an enemy of the “faith?” What has faith to do with crass misjudgement?
We are talking in this time and place, not a few hundred years ago, when neither side had a records about which to brag.
I can’t imagine why the new owners would rip up memorial stones like this. Sad and confusing… :(
Cold hearted Catholic hierarchy and the evilness of division rule the Catholic Church. Why would anyone close to God rip up stones that were donated in faith and love to beautify God’s house of worship? Cruel, lacking compassion, and just plain mean are the first thoughts of the Catholic church that come to mind, remember you will reap what you sow.
We all would like to think that we will be remembered on earth by other human beings in perpetuity.
Eternal Life does not depend upon a brick or other man-made monument. Just because someone bought a brick does not mean the person being remembered will be in Heaven. – That is only for Jesus to judge.
The original bricks were intended to be Protestant memorials via that specific Faith.
Unless there is something contrary in the purchasing agreement (contract) by law the new owners of the property will change things.
The statement in the article is that the stones when purchased were supposed to “last forever.” That indicates an agreement between the former owner of the cathedral and the individual purchasers of the stones. Now that the stones are apparently not lasting “forever, ” those individual purchasers may have a right based in contract against the former owner of the cathedral.
There is no such thing as last forever…who do they think they are? God?
Going to the heart of the matter…. The relative is not the stone, nor are the relatives under the stone. The gesture of having the stone laid does not constitute the love for the person that was lost. It is only a ritual of a sort to console the living.
Removal of the stone does not erase the loving memory nor the dignity of that person who died. Loss of a material stone certainly does not compare to the loss of the person who once lived. The only thing lost here is money and the tangible means in which someone has chosen to honor a memory. It is love that remains. Love is not the stone, and no one can take love away. Honor your relative by remembering them in love and by loving. A better way to spend $2000 in honor of a loved one would be to give it to the poor who need it…ie medicine for the 3rd world, water wells for clean water. I am sure this would be the Lord’s perspective. A rock is just a rock, but there are people still living in desperation in this world who need our generosity….this should be the concern of the living.
Amen Amen Amen
I doubt seriously you would feel this way if it were YOUR loved one involved. And how dare you tell someone else how to remember their dead, and how to spend their money doing it.
Well then, if they cared, then they should of done everything possible to not lost their church….Its not our fault….so C Alexander who do you really serve? You don’t sound like a friend of our faith!
What do you think a headstone in a Catholic cemetery costs?
Let them become Catholic , then we will keep the stones. Problem Solved!! Heresy has consequences period!
Well, that certainly sounds like something a follower of Christ would say {sarcasm}. You might want to focus on being a little less “Catholic” and a little more “Christian” in your outlook.
I find this to be sad and insensitive. If this was necessary, why could they have not waited 20, 30 even 50 years to do it? By that time, probably, the majority of those whom were closest to the deceased probably would have passed on themselves, and the pain would be far less. The Church is eternal and the Archdiocese could have waited.
Philanthropically speaking, the stones’ removal is so very insensitive, not only to those who were being remembered, but to their benefactors as well. This lack of respect will come back to haunt the dioceses.
It would be or would have been great and a lovely gesture if each stone could be or could have been given to the survivors.
Well, I hadn’t thought about Dr.Schuyler’s feelings in all this…it was his dream and he dreamed big and the sidewalk was all part of it. Well, for the people who have been affected, I would think they would form a committee and try to obtain justice and resolve the issue somehow. I’ve never been a fan of memorial sidewalks so I’m prejudiced, I’ll admit, but when people’s feelings are involved you have to be sensitive to them…actually, I don’t know why I’m spending so much time in this debate. Too bad someone representing the restructuring doesn’t write a rebuttal explaining the Church’s side in all of this…as it is we’re all just blindly natterng about something of which we none of us know anything.
I’m sorry, but she must have a way to have 100 pounds picked up by a family member or two, or workers there on the site, and taken home to her place of choice. Where is the obligation of a homeowner to keep a stone memorial to a buried beloved pet among the landscaping he may wish to remodel?
I know of a man in our neighborhood whose remains are buried in the front yard, no doubt illegally, and when his wife lost the house to foreclosure 10 years later, the bank had to disclose that in selling it, and buyers paid probably $150,000 less for the home since it had a stone burial plaque in the front yard. I don’t see it there any more and don’t know what happened, but I’m sure he is not obligated to have kept it there for any reason whatsoever.
Do we have a new troll…. I mean a new poster named Maryanne Leonad or did Maryanne Leonard slip up and forget to write her last name correctly when filling it back in? It would really be helpful as well as important to know if we are addressing the Maryanne Leonard who always brings up the importance of being sensitive to women. Something is not consistent then. Please answer Maryanne.
If this is Maryanne Leonard then it is very cold sounding, very unfeeling and very insulting to this heartbroken woman to compare a buried pet or an animal with the memory of her beloved husband and son. If this is the same Maryanne Leonard then you owe an apology to this woman for making such a very cold, unfeeling and insensitive remark. Actions of how you treat another woman speak so much louder then ONLY whining when someone talks truthfully about the destructive aspects of the feminization of the Church. Or do we have a new poster named Maryanne Leonad? Which one is it? Oh what a tangled mess we weave……when at first we practice to deceive. If we do have a new poster named Maryanne Leonad, I would still remind this new poster how very cruel and unfeeling she sounds. Which Maryanne is it?
Catherine, I am not unfeeling, and neither is the Catholic Cathedral being unfeeling here. It’s just that a new owner is not obligated to keep a past owner’s buried remains or memorial stones when he buys a property, and I am pointing out a common law principle that people may well be able to understand. I am not equating this woman’s suffering with that of family who lose pets, merely pointing out the principle. If someday some Koreans or Arabs buy the property, they are free to do with it as they wish, and may just throw all Catholic items in the trash, as they wish. Real estate rights, Catherine, that accrue to the new owners. Period. The Catholic Church is within its rights to do with the property anything they wish to transform them into consecrated grounds housing a CATHOLIC cathedral.
Let’s not call each other names here, Catherine, or denigrate one another when we disagree, unless we are talking about the promotion of sin, the denigration of the faith, or other areas of concern not worthy of tearing each other to shreds. It’s beneath us to attack others when we simply disagree, most especially when the so-called offense was never intended, but rather a principle of law was being explained in laymen’s terms. I forgive you but must ask you to lighten up on people in general. Some of your posts are too harsh to be worthy of a good Catholic like yourself, and in this particular case, I do not deserve the particular bashing you chose to deliver. You bring so much to this site, let’s keep it on a higher level, ja?
Catherine I’m sorry that you misunderstood ML, I don’t think she is insensitive….I’m sorry too because I probably seem insensitive too in regard to this subject at hand but it’s not the case…I tend to look at the whole picture…
Another article from the NYT bashing the Catholic Church. So bored with this. If Granny was living on a fixed income, receiving government benefits, maybe a $2000 stone was a poor choice for her. Clearly her family thought so. I do to. Lastly, a GIFT to any church is a GIFT.
It is shameful that these people were sold this concept by the bickering bunch that were in charge of building that church. The theology behind this kind of thinking is a challenge. The tangible will never replace a true faith in the mercy of Our Lord. Their displeasure should be directed at the Schullers of the world. It is a shame something better could not have been done. My message to these poor disappointed folks: Come to the Church established by Christ, not men, and your souls will be nourished by the Sacraments He left for us. While I have no interest in the Crystal Cathedral and don’t see the value in it’s use as a Catholic Church (no accounting for taste), it is what will be present in that Church that will make the difference: the True Presence, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Seems like something more sensitive could have been planned. How about a memorial wall of the stones (perhaps with those who want them paying –or not paying–the cost of the removal and replacement in a wall). Going on about the horrors of what happened in England 500 years ago or in many Catholic churches worldwide since Vatican II is no excuse for this kind of behavior today.
I am shocked and disappointed at the reactions of so many of my fellow Catholics to this story. That similar hurt has been done to Catholics is irrelevant; two wrongs do not make a right. Christians, of all people, should know that. These people are our BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN CHRIST, and this appalling lack of charity and sensitivity is outrageous. If the stones absolutely had to be removed (and I question that), why could they not simply be moved to another area on the grounds? As for the cemetery, let them bring their remembrances. At some point there will be no more of them because the survivors will themselves be dead. “By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
— John 13:35
Wow, you have more indignation for that hokey sidewalk than you would probably have for the destruction of Coventry Cathedral. (which had been been bombed into oblivion by nazi planes and rebuilt and features on the front St.Michael looming over satan, bound) Whenever I was in England, the heinous site of the ruins of exquisite abbeys throughout the country brought such sorrow I could hardly bear it. I thought of the poor that went hungry because it was the abbeys that fed them. I thought of the children who were no longer taught to read and write because it was the abbeys that taught them…the terrible loss of such beauty, such centers of learning and goodness. The people who paid for the little inserts can put them home as little memorials to their loved ones. For those that are unable, there must be some willing hands to help move them? Much ado about nothing!
AMEN!
The stones didn’t need to be removed. They take up about 11,000 square feet (for the stones alone and not the concrete they are set in) so it might be difficult to find a place for them. One solution would be a 3D “stack” of them perhaps 4-5 tall.
I’m fairly embarrassed by the tenor of many of the comments here. People who I am sure have never been on the campus. There are a lot of very coarse people on this forum. Sad.
Laurie writes….”A better way to spend $2000 in honor of a loved one would be to give it to the poor who need it…ie medicine for the 3rd world, water wells for clean water.”
“But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, “Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.” He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.”
Laurie writes, “I am sure this would be the Lord’s perspective. A rock is just a rock, but there are people still living in desperation in this world who need our generosity……this should be the concern of the living.”
The concern of the living should not be pouring millions of dollars into a glass money draining pit. The main concern of the living should be passing down of the authentic Catholic faith to the next generation. You do not need to travel to a third world country to view the desperation of spiritual starvation, spiritual poverty and spiritual neglect. Many Catholics who live in the Diocese of Orange, Ca. still have to home school because of the spiritual poverty, spiritual neglect and lack of generosity within the Diocese of Orange. The disgraceful spiritual bankruptcy which has forced many Catholic families to have to choose to remove their children from Catholic schools is far worse than the financial bankruptcy of Rev. Schuller. It takes a great amount of prideful arrogance and unmitigated gall to foolishly claim, “I am sure this would be the Lord’s perspective.”
“For the poor you have always with you: but me you have not always.”…..Matthew 26:11
The whole scenario described in this story is just an excuse, in my view, for the NYTIMES to bash the Catholic Church. This is pretty thin gruel for them to attack Catholicism, but, hey, in the NY TIMES perspective, “why waste an opportunity,” in this case, to try and defame the Catholic Church? Everyone s/know by now of the Times’ GREAT disdain for all things Catholic. Especially their teachings re legalized murder (abortion) and so called “gay marriage.” We as a Church oppose both. The Times and their various cohorts are for BOTH of these evils. A real no-brainer here, as to the Times’ motivation. And as long as the cemetery still exists, where’s REALLY the beef? Is not the present Catholic occupier of Crystal Cathedral within their rights to remove said stones? Of course. ’nuff said. God Bless All, Markrite
For me it’s a simple matter of aesthetics. Had the sidewalk been tastefully done and not some tacky, obviously money-making, last minute scheme to get people to cough up yet more money for the star-gazey glass pie in the sky, it would and should have been preserved. Look again at the picture. Would you want that in your yard? Look at the tidy little flowers all in a row. What a shame those hard-working people forked out all that money for such a low quality product. That the NYT doesn’t get this comes as no surprise. Did they speak out against building a mosque at Ground Zero in NYC? No, they supported it. Did they speak out against the depredations against our Lord in a so-called work of art at a gallery in NYC where a Crucifix was encased in urine? Of course not. As Markrite said, it is strictly to bash the Church. I keep waiting to hear that the Gray Hag has gone out of business. I long for the day!
Actually, they should not stop with ripping up the stones — please continue and demolish the nutty “Crystal Cathedral.” Never, never, never, is this going to function as a true Catholic Church, although it will be loved by the “Bishop Brown brigade” in OC. And, it will likely be loved in the Vatican, too. Yes, our Pope is busy enabling the dismantling of the growing Traditionalist movement, with things like his homily comments something to the effect that “Triumphalists” (and their “liturgy”) are somehow not true believers in the, what, divinity of Christ, or true mission of the Church? What does Francis mean, as he does nothing to dissage any group that one dedicated to Catholic Tradition will be treated any differently than the awful handling of a Traditionalist Franciscan order. Some commentators are already suggesting that Benedict’s “retirement” was not so much a retirement as a “papal lay off” by the increasingly powerful uber-liberal wing of the Church: “Liberation Theology” anyone? Taking up these stones may cause personal anguish by the Presbetrian faithful that paid their money in good conscience; but, hey, Westminster Abbey was built as a Catholic Church, as were many others. The negotiators for the “Cathedral” should have included a requirement to maintain the stones, or to move them to a sort of “museum” there. But, perhaps they will be saying the same thing about the spurt of Traditionalism in the near future: just look at these churches with altar rails, and kneelers, and confessionals, and a center tabernacle (or one at all), what were they thinking??
More and more I derive a GOOD feeling from knowing that people who make the comments you do are terribly bothered by the purchase of the campus.
Thanks be to God!
R.B Rodda its a good thing you don’t know many here personally, I have a feeling that your pride may cause you to punch someone in the face just for having their say…… How can you have such a good feeling to that….is this building more to you like a god? That you feel this way. We are not to have false idols you know…..
Sorry “R.B. Rodda” but there is little bother here, if that was the intent of your comment, only resignation that it seems that this is truly the end times for the true Catholic Church. The Crystal Cathedral is a foolish structure within which to house, and worship, the one, true God. (Oops, the Real Presence revealed — too bad very few Catholics believe it anymore.) Let the Protestants do what they want to worship — their architecture suggests their beliefs. (Oh no, there is that lex orandi, lex credendi stuff again!) Yes, the Crystal Cathedral seems fine for the many that take their “Catholicism” very lite, and, like the good Bishop Brown, pretty much believe that the Catholic Church began with Vatican II (the prior stuff was the “Evil Empire” and is best forgotten). And — good for your side — we now have Francis himself crowing about the bad “Triumphalists” and their liturgy. Whatever could he be talking about? Perhaps the Vatican would really like the Crystal Cathedral: will it have kneelers? A central Tabernacle? Any Catholic artwork? Any Catholic hymns that are not of the “One Bread, One Body” variety? Will homosexual sex and its gross immorality be celebrated? One can almost hear the handwringing about supporting the local LBGT group and “Pride” events. What about confessionals; will there be any? Perhaps they will ask the Schullers to be “honorary priests”?
It’s a mistake for an organization to sell engraved stones and promise they’ll be there forever. The church is under new management, and the new owners have every right to rip them up. If someone is reduced to tears because their stone is ripped up, I say they’re too sensitive!
As with all NYT stories, incomplete. Rather than this being the Catholic Church’s problem, What is Rev. Schuller’s son/Pastor doing for their flock? When the church was sold, why not a special provision for these “beloved donors”? Where are all the former members of the Crystal Cathedral attending?? I think that this church’s leadership let down their flock in many, many ways. Blaming the Catholic church is just plain Wrong!
NO QUESTION the Schullers let down their flock. That’s not in question. (They meet right down the street at the former St. Calistus church that is being rented from the diocese.)
The question is why were the stones removed? There was no reason to remove them. Shame on the bishop.
The “former St. Calistus church”, anyone upset for the donors’ who helped build that church?
Nope. It’s still owned by the diocese, it’s now providing income for the diocese and that parish is now the “resident parish” of Christ Cathedral.
Nice try.
R.B. Rodda, really, are you sure that no former parishioner of St. Calistus is upset? Is the crucifix which someone donated still hanging? Are there any statues or images of the Blessed Mother or saints still there? Someone had to donate these, didn’t they? How about the tabernacle and all of the other church furnishings needed for Catholic worship? How about the simple fact that, let’s say a parishioner of 50 years, who called the St. Calistus home and intended to have their Funeral Mass there, now in their twilight years having to worship at parish in which they have no memories built? Really Rodda, you think that the fact that the building is providing revenue for the diocese is any comfort to the above individuals I have mentioned?
How do you know….All Knowing and Wise Roda??? Have you contacted every former & deceased former parishioner from St. Callista? You write with such conviction and certainty. You with the least amount of sin may throw the first stone.
We have unborn babies murdered in the womb, we have people trying to re-define marriage and all Rodda can say is “shame on the Bishop for removing those stones” but wasn’t it also that this diocese bought this tall glass building?
Rodda no one can make you happy….first they buy this building and you are pleased and now with this news, you are now throwing them under the bus., who could make you happy?……Wow
The fate of these memorial stones should have been negotiated up front. The previous owners should have known that the new owners would make alterations; that is common sense. Think of how the Catholics in Germany reacted when the Calvinists ripped out all statues, white-washed over fresco paintings, and broke stained glass windows in their beautiful churches. They also ripped out the altars, communion rails, and celebrated their services on a plain table, a desecration, BTW, we have taken up for the celebration of our novus ordo missae.
I don’t understand all of the historical references to wrongs that were committed centuries ago, as if that has any relevance today. How can you ever hope to forgive what people have actually done to you when you bring up things done generations ago that you never experienced personally? Your post has the stench of current Middle Eastern sectarianism. You, and some others posting here, seem to take the position that anything is acceptable, provided that it is done to non-Catholics (based on the actions of German Calvinists centuries ago, labeling them as heretics, etc.). No wonder the Catholic Church is focusing on a “new evangelism.” Some (certainly a minority) of the “spokespeople” for the RCC on this site hardly seem to be part of a church that others would be drawn to. You come across as provincial, judgmental, wordly and very unwelcoming.
You know the old chestnut that provincial and judgmental always seem to refer to,”those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it” and it’s just a little quirk that we have about being leery of situations taking place throughout the world that seem to have deep repercussions against Christians of all stripes, especially those in the Middle East who are suffering enormously for choices our government is making that show a complete disregard for history or common sense. Truth is the new hate crime, and nice people like you are really offended by what you consider being judgmental (but in a better age was also called discerning). The world hates the Catholic church, and we did not have enemies it would certainly mean we weren’t being salt and light and carriers of the truth as revealed in scripture, tradition and Church teachings. How nice that you’re able to freely express yourself on a Catholic website without fear of retribution. Do you think that the muslims (who you say are just like us) would allow you to do so?
Here’s another old chestnut: Do unto others as you would have them do to you. I’m not aware of any translations along the lines of “do unto others as their ancestors may have done to your ancestors” or “do unto others as you fear they want to do to you.” Christianity is not synonymous with what the world calls “common sense” and it doesn’t condone Hatfields and McCoys generational feuds. More importantly, I did not in any way address the Catholic Church generally. My reference to Middle Eastern style sectarianism clearly was in response to a specific post (justifying actions taken today by reference to the actions of German Calvinists centuries ago). There is absolutely no basis for your claim that I said that Catholics are just like Muslims. In fact, I made a point of saying that the people making such comments on this blog certainly are in the minority of posts. I did not denigrate the Catholic faith, but rather took exception to some posts that may be consistent with the world’s values, but I don’t believe are consistent with Christ’s teachings. Do not attempt to twist my disagreement with individuals to be antagonism toward the Catholic Church generally. I would have the same response to any other group of Christians treating Catholics in that manner.
And couldn’t the Diocese have delivered the stones to Ms. De Clercq?
I think mr Rodda wouldn’t mind taking them to her…he’s so torn up about all this it might bring him some peace of mind.
If I lived in OC I certainly would.
The diocese really pulled a major PR boner on this one.
I think the worst part are the on-line photos of the stones. Couldn’t the diocese have weeded and swept before taking the photos?
Very sad.
Ripping out these stones is a very un-Catholic thing to do. It’s quite embarrassing to be honest.
The Walk of Faith Stones should be removed, and unlike some people in here who think it is sad and insensitive BLAH, BLAH. BLAH….I think removing those stones is the right thing to do.
The Crystal Cathedral is a Catholic Church now, so get over it.
Yes it is a Catholic Church now but like Stockton, and soon to be Oakland, it’s only a matter of time before they file for Bankruptcy.
What?
OC is neither Stockton nor Oakland…
Oakland (a relatively small diocese) MASSIVELY overspent on its cathedral. Why are you trying to suggest a linkage or similarity where none exists?
R.B., I am not suggesting anything to you but only stating a prudent business fact that there will be a Bankruptcy in the future for Crystal Cathedral. If you disagree, please let me know why!!!.
And yes, like the soon to be Backrupt Oakland diocese, their Ordinary was then transferred here to SF where he can oversee our bankruptcy as well. It goes on and on and on.
The stones in no way make the campus any less Catholic.
Rodda you should of applied for the job of the person who makes decisions on what a church needs to be Catholic? You are no different than the ones who are now creating new structures, you may fit perfectly under the job.
So Rodda does this mean that you won’t be visiting this church anytime soon, i hope you don’t hold grudges against them.
First they boycotted orange juice because of Anita Bryant. Now Vodka because of Russia. So now, if one were to order a Screwdriver at a gay bar in San Francisco…..
For those of you who are upset about this, I wonder if you are equally sad about what many Catholic Bishops and priest around the USA have done to our beautiful Catholic Cathedrals and Churches? I previously spoke about how my farmer ancestors and their neighbors came from an area of Germany in the 1800’s, (where Lutherans were persecuting the Catholics), and built a beautiful church in the middle of nowhere Ohio. They spared nothing to make the church beautiful. In the 1970’s the Bishop of the diocese decided that all of the artwork was distracting. The 12 statues of the apostles were repainted “battleship gray”, the beautiful murals depicting Old testament stories were painted over. The intricate German wood-carved communion rail was taken out and thrown in the basement, just to name a few of the atrocities. Sad to say, this is no isolated case. And I am not talking about paving stones either! In the 1990’s the parishioners of the small town church raised over 1 million dollars to restore what had been destroyed. I wonder how long it will last this time?
Tracy, beautifully said…and so sad! You hadn’t mentioned that in your post about the Land of Cross Tipped Churches… I am so sorry! Our bishop shut down fifty churches but you may have read about it that half if them were made by Pope Benedict to reopen when parishioners fought so hard to save them… some of them were gorgeous.
Tracy I feel your pain….now what you just posted is heartbreaking and a reality that often we don’t hear spoken about and no one is outraged enough about. Thank you for helping us look deeper.
What does this have to do with the removal of the pavers? Good grief…
Nothing, R.B., I know you’re still grieving for the paving stone removal so why not lie down with an icepack on your head and a nice tinklng little cold one and take a damp…I mean, a nap? heh heh
The truth is that the previous church group should have contacted all those who had contributed for the stones and written into the contract with the Catholic Church just what would be done with them. They did not, so by rights the stones can be taken up if they get into the way of something else being built. The people who had the stones put down most likely knew that the grounds and buildings were going to be sold. If the cathedral had been sold to anyone else the stones would have been gone pronto most probably. It would be nice if an arrangement could be made for the people who had paid to put them down could have them placed somewhere else, but it seems far too late for that now. The place in a another city where many of my relatives have been buried has gone bankrupt. Most likely the graves of some of my ancestors will some day be something else. I also donated money toward a church structure that included a plaque for one of my diseased relatives in a church. Through the confusion when the pastors were changed, it never got put up, and I did not keep the receipt long enough. I look at this way, the good Lord knows I donated, and that is all that matters.
There is no question the diocese has the legal “right” to remove the stones. None whatsoever.
Doing so however is incredibly insensitive and it’s not needed. That’s bad form, bishop.
Obviously the stones are being offered to the original donors to the Protestant money-raising scheme that ultimately led to the loss of the church and grounds. As I read the story, the elderly woman could not manage the 100 pound weight of the stones and thus this ruckus. Why don’t those of us who are bothered by this just contact the cathedral headquarters and see whom to call to help this woman and anyone else who wants their stones back to have them delivered to her by volunteers? Simple.
While these stones are purely a symbolic representation of their deceased relatives, obviously they have some value to the donors, who were enticed to make these donations with promises of a stone, perhaps to be laid in perpetuity; we don’t know. If that were the case, this should have been specified in the sale. I doubt the bishop would be removing them if it had been.
The entity which seems to have broken faith here is the Protestant assembly, who failed to provide for this likelihood. No Catholic is responsible; in fact, Catholics are trying to ease the painful feelings of some of the donors who don’t seem to understand that we are not evil simply because we bought the real estate and are turning into a Catholic cathedral.
I may not like the look of the cathedral, but I do stand up for the right for the bishop to turn that place into a fully Catholic cathedral now that it is purchased, and he is having the situation handled as well as he can, from all we can tell from media reports. Denigrating him for no good reason is not good form, R. B. Rodda. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
As I read the postings here I find a certain strain of Catholicism that is mean-spirited, crabbed and not worthy of emulation.
When I read the postings I read individuals who understand the situation clearly and many have lived through the closing of their own beloved parishes. Those that have given time, talents and treasure to their parishes and despite hard work, love and deep abiding commitment to God, our parishes closed. The stones at the Crystal Cathedral are just stones. They are not human beings. They are not flesh and blood. The commentary and angst over the stones has nothing to do with Catholicism but rather cultural relativism and materialism. I highlight Materialism specifically. Those that value these stones must “come and get them”. They are just plain old stones. Walked over, on and passed by, by the Living.
They are broken promises.
The Mexican government once confiscated (“secularized”) the California missions and their lands then evicted (“liberated”) the natives from upon them. So things could be worse. In this case, however, it makes one wonder if anyone possesses any sense of honor; especially those within the hierarchy of our church. Respect is like love in that it is something one cannot expect to receive unless he/she is willing to give it to others.