The following comes from a June 2 story in the Telegraph (U.K.)
Opposition is mounting in the Holy See to a spate of recent, ultra-modern churches, in Italy and abroad, by high profile architects.
“The lack of integration between the architect and the faith community has at times been negative,” said Cardinal Gianfranco Ravasi, head of the Vatican’s Pontificial Council for Culture. “Sometimes it goes wrong.”
Cardinal Ravasi said a church built in 2009 in Foligno, Italy by the celebrated Italian architect Massimiliano Fuksas, which resembles a monolithic concrete cube, has been “highly criticised”.
In his native town of Merate in Lombardy, Cardinal Ravasi said the local priest needed to bring his own image of the Madonna to mass, because Mario Botta, the architect who designed the church, had not installed one.
“The problem is that in Catholicism, unlike Protestantism, things like the altar, the images, are essential, while architects tend instead to focus on space, lines, light and sound,” said Cardinal Ravasi.
The last architects to work closely with the church were back in the 17th century Baroque era, he added.
Cardinal Ravasi’s attack was backed last month by Antonio Paolucci, the head of the Vatican museums, when he spoke at the launch of a book celebrating the building of dozens of new churches in the suburbs of Rome since the 1990s.
Instead of praising the churches, Mr Paolucci lashed out, claiming that: “At best, these are like museums, spaces that do not suggest prayer or meditation.”
Cardinal Ravasi conceded that one of Rome’s most controversial new churches – Richard Meier’s Jubilee Church, which resembles a yacht with spinnakers hoisted – had won over locals, but complained that “the building materials were the focus of pre-construction meetings, not the liturgical life”.
Cardinal Ravasi was speaking after inaugurating the Vatican’s first ever art exhibit at the Venice Biennale on Saturday, which focuses on the Book of Genesis through photography and paintings by a Los Angeles artist, Lawrence Carroll, who uses melting ice in one work.
Vatican officials believe the show can help heal what they call a century old “fracture” between religion and art, and Cardinal Ravasi said the Church now had its sights on commissioning modern liturgical art, for installing in churches.
“The Venice Biennale exhibit has been the first step on a journey,” he said. “Further down the line could come liturgical art, meaning we could commission modern artists to create altars, fonts, tabernacles, lecterns, pews and kneelers,” he added.
But after letting modern architects push the envelope too far, the Church will keep a wary eye on liturgical art commissions, he said.
“We will need to build up dialogue with artists before we commission any liturgical art,” he said.
To read original story, click here.
Maybe they should first go after the “non-religious” bishops. Oops, too late.
Amen!
More horrific examples of modernism…shocking, positively shocking…
Wow, this topic is sure to elicit a great deal of carping from the faith inspectors herein. We’ll hear rants and raves about “modernism”, “abuses”, whether or not something is “licit”, “valid”, etc. So much of it boils down to nothing more than personal taste and inculcated responses.
I don’t like the idea of big bucks being spent on any Catholic church — be they ultra “modern” designs or skinny bowling allies with enough bric-a-brac to take ones focus away from the Sacrifice.
More and more I think Pope Francis was spot-on when he said:
“…So I then told the priests: ‘If you can, rent a garage and, if you find some willing layman, let him go there! Let him be with those people a bit, do a little catechesis and even give communion if they ask him.’ A parish priest said to me: ‘But Father, if we do this the people then won’t come to Church.’ ‘But why?’ I asked him: ‘Do they come to Mass now?’ ‘No,’ he answered. And so! Coming out of oneself is also coming out from the fenced garden of one’s own convictions, considered irremovable, if they risk becoming an obstacle, if they close the horizon that is also of God…” — Jorge Cardinale Bergoglio (Pope Francis), 2005.
Maybe it’s time to build simple, inexpensive and easy to maintain churches of concrete block and tilt-up concrete and spend more of our material resources on directly on bringing people to Jesus Christ
Rodda you are an insult to twist the topic Faith Inspectors. I am getting sick of your abusive attack on many. You set a tone of division and surely one that is insulting to our Pope. If he knew what you were doing here, using his examples and such in order to insult others. Maybe we should find a topic that best describes your actions here…..one that the Pope has used to describe you. I am so sick of this bazaar dibble dabble. You are a bitter man. Sad to say but you are. Look in the mirror before you spew more attacks on the faithful here.
Abeca, I think you have a serious problem of understanding what is going on in the so called modern Church – Rodda’s last paragraph is correct and hits the mark – If your idea of Church faithful is contained in your response then you better review the original concept of the Church established some 2,000 years ago as it is reverse of what is taught today – Also, you should not insult any contributor to the CCD – Even if you disagree we are all entitled to our opinions –
Thanks, Eric. I strongly believe that Catholic churches should be simple, inexpensive to build and maintain and built to last. That does not mean that they cannot be strongly orthodox in their design.
I don’t like utilitarian/modern designs that costs $$$. I also don’t care for bowling alley lane churches with so much bric-a-brac that cannot be maintained without spending an ongoing fortune. The world is full of such churches. Many are in sad shape.
I especially don’t like churches that do a poor job of making the Eucharist the focus of everyone’s attention. People want to sacrifice sight angles (the ability to actually watch the sacrifice a top the altar) and sonic qualities (the ability to actually hear things) all with the desire to “keep things traditional” and I think that’s plain wrong.
Rodda, once again you’ve posted for the world to see how utterly void of Catholicism you really are: “I especially don’t like churches that do a poor job of making the Eucharist the focus of everyone’s attention.” Jesus told us clearly that the main part of the greatest commandment is to worship God … This mean to focus on God, and Jesus gave God to us in the Holy Eucharist. How can you be so ignorant?
He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins. James 5:20
This describes not a “faith inspector” but a devout Catholic soul!
Your quote is the opposite of a faith inspector. “Faith inspectors” cause people to leave the Church and/or stop believing in Christ.
No Anony those people left the church because they were waiting for a reason, they were never joined as one in Christ with the church. Or their faith is easily shaken due to bad will. Whatever the reason maybe, it’s between God and them.
If we are truly loyal then it won’t be easy to break a soul. They may seek to break us but they won’t own us! Like Jesus, He was Crucified, He never left us…even when we treated Him so badly. We need to follow His great example of true love. By even being our brothers keeper. Of course scandal of the soul can cause people to leave but true charitable admonishment is usually what a prideful person does not want to hear.
But I suppose….we all have our gifts, some are more gentle than others. Some may forget to apply love and that is where one can go wrong. do believe that our Lord allows harsh admonishment because He knows that is what it may take for some to finally listen. Well Anony it is all about what our Lord wants…His will not ours. The rest doesn’t matter, we will all die and not take with us earthly possessions and even earthy ideologies.
If you read Pope Francis’ comments he was speaking of those who, while having good sentiments, reject people. He was not really talking about admonishing sinners. He is talking about people of simple faith being rejected by those who know more. They are looking for Christ. They are looking for love and acceptance (of their person, not of their sins.) They get criticized. They get used. They get treated rudely. Not everyone leaves the Church, but they won’t help out a church anymore. They go to Mass and that is all. Some do leave. I knew a person who went a whole year in RCIA and then right before Easter, someone criticized something they did and they left and never came back. Another person left because they had offered to help and was told no. They went to another church and it was not a Catholic Church. Once someone gave money to a person who needed gas for their car and the parish secretary told them “you could never work at a church.” That person didn’t leave. A newly ordained priest threatened to “unbless” someone because he didn’t like something they said. Another lady who stayed was criticized for praying the rosary too fast. She goes to Mass but she will never go to another Rosary. Their faith in God and Jesus was not shaken. But their confidence that they could serve him in safety at the Catholic Church was. And they no longer believe that the person that hurt them is an example of Christ. What the pope was saying was that we need to be careful and act lovingly.
Anonymous: What a great posting! The number of people who have been driven away from certain parishes or the Catholic Church altogether by faith inspectors (be they “liberal” or “conservative”) is heartbreaking.
If most pastors were serious about their flocks they would make it a point to track down and carefully interview those adults that have entered the Church through RCIA in their parishes over the past 10 years. I strongly suspect that far less than 25% still attend Mass. Their reasons for straying would largely amount to being treated with indifference or actually being mistreated.
They don’t leave because of bad architecture, liturgical “abuses”, the “NO” Mass, receiving Holy Communion in one’s hands or the lack of doilies on women’s heads at Mass. It’s because people are treated indifferently or poorly in too darned many Catholic parishes. The lack of positive fellowship is horrible.
Some stick around and do the absolute minimum. So many people I attend Mass with are like very hardened laborers. They have been treated horribly but they need the job — they need to fulfill their Sunday obligation. They show up for Mass, receive the sacrament and leave. The notion of taking part in a non-essential parish activity (the tiny number that are left) would never occur to them. If asked or pressured to get involved they’ll politely decline while laughing (or possibly cursing) on the inside.
Helping to heal these people and bring those back who have left needs to be the focus and not on expressing hatred for “modernist” architecture. The faith inspectors will never grasp this fact until they change — from the inside.
Eric, while you advocate everyone being entitled to their opinions, what you really mean is your opinions. Otherwise you would not have spoken against those whose opinion is that they should insult bozos.
Stop the continual judgement of others and read what Pope Francis wrote. The faith inspectors like yourself have taken a terrible toll on the Church, much like the “liberals” you vilify. You’ve also clearly taken a toll on yourself. Stop the hatred.
RB Rodda,
My… You do have delusions of grandeur! My mother drove the Little Sisters of Victory from garage to garage in California where they taught the Catechism to children who attended public schools. I remember helping to set up the twenty or so chairs for the children that would be coming. The most dedicated Catholic priests that I know went out and knocked door to door to bring the faith to those who did not attend Church any more. These dedicated priests brought many people back to the Catholic Church. These people returned to the sacraments and then had their children baptized and catechized because of the faithfulness and love of these good priests. These faithful priests all loved the EF and they would have told you to stop the hate when you post your hate filled language regarding women who wear mantillas. Perhaps some are still fooled by your duplicitous posts. It might make you feel superior to tell others to stop the hate while you consistently taunt and make fun of those who attend the EF Mass.
Catherine,
If you aren’t talking about the late great, holy, Fr. Daniel Johnson, of St. Mary’s By the Sea in Huntington Beach, you sure must mean to!
When the libs succeeded with the bishop to get him exiled to a run down very small Church, he went out into the neighborhood doing exactly what you describe here and he turned St. Mary’s By The Sea into a refuge for real Catholics. He never allowed RCIA, he taught the classes himself.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
I usually don’t write ROTFL because I’m not, but when Rodda wrote “stop the hatred” I really had a good laugh. Thanks Rodda. I’m still laughing. What a hoot!
It’s bizarre.
Wow, I liked what the Pope said: instead of waiting in an empty church for people to come ( if this is the case), better go or send a woman/men to the places where people live – who knows why they do not come to church… maybe they do not have $ for transportation, or have sick children, or no cloths /shoes , or simply feel rejected by a priest, or women falsely accused of abortion, when instead the fathers forced them to abort…..
It is an AWESOME quote. Don’t get hung up on protocol! MINISTER to the people! There are indeed many reasons why people do not go to Mass.
Disobedient Diocese Bishops, on the Vatican web site – please read: ” ADDRESS OF JOHN PAUL II TO THE PARTICIPANTS IN THE PLENARY ASSEMBLY OF THE PONTIFICAL COMMISSION FOR THE CULTURAL HERITAGE OF THE CHURCH Saturday, 9 October 2002″;
and
“POST-SYNODAL APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION VERBUM DOMINI OF THE HOLY FATHER BENEDICT XVI TO THE BISHOPS, CLERGY, CONSECRATED PERSONS AND THE LAY FAITHFUL ON THE WORD OF GOD IN THE LIFE AND MISSION OF THE CHURCH” 2010. #68
Architecture like all Church art must promote in the Church a solid formation of artists with regard to sacred Scripture in the light of the Church’s living Tradition and her magisterium.
Those who accurately “QUOTE” Holy Scripture and the Teachings of the Church are not “Faith Inspectors”.
RB Rodda you are misusing the words of Pope Francis, and should be ashamed of yourself. He was talking about the baptizing of babies, and welcoming people into the Church regarding “Faith Inspectors” – go back and reread that article.
In the quote you mentioned in your post, the Cardinal (Pope) was talking about EVANGELIZING and searching out Souls to bring them to Christ. He was not talking about the Architecture of Churches.
Beautiful and Scripturally saturated architecture (one example: Stained glass windows depicting the Gospel) brings even-non Catholics into a Church.
For example, St. Patrick’s Cathedral in NY has many hundreds of visitors annually who are not Catholic. For some this is their only exposure to a Catholic Church.
If you love God above all, you will give Him your very best.
I suggest you read: Mt 26:6-11.
I posted Pope Francis’ words VERBATIM!
Stained glass has little impact on those that never visit churches.
Rodda, no one said you posted the words of the Pope incorrectly.
What people are saying is that your own interpretation is wrong and twisted. Pope Francis never addressed RELIGIOUS architecture – yet.
Millions of non-Catholics visit the Vatican annually to see the beauty of the architecture – sometimes this is the only exposure they get to our Faith, and some are inspired to look further.
This is also true of beautiful RELIGIOUS architecture in the USA.
Religious architecture (including stained glass windows) are directed toward the sanctification of men and the praise of God.
CCC: ” 1670 Sacramentals do not confer the grace of the Holy Spirit in the way that the sacraments do, but by the Church’s prayer, they prepare us to receive grace and dispose us to cooperate with it.
For well-disposed members of the faithful, the liturgy of the sacraments and sacramentals sanctifies almost every event of their lives with the divine grace which flows from the Paschal mystery of the Passion, Death, and Resurrection of Christ. From this source all sacraments and sacramentals draw their power.
There is scarcely any proper use of material things which cannot be thus directed toward the sanctification of men and the praise of God. “
Career Catholics and professional Catholics are NEVER ashamed of their professionalism. It is a badge of honor and far more important to succeed in business and pleasure than it is to remain a faithful Catholic.
Beth right on!
Right on Catherine and Pete!
The history of the faith demonstrates that beautiful churches were precisely what led many to the Faith in centuries past (and provided much-needed jobs and job training). You propose a false bargain. There’s already too much concrete-block ugliness in the world of the modern poor. Why would they be impressed by more of the same?
I don’t think too many people are “led to the faith” by beautiful churches — or at least WHAT YOU FEEL are beautiful churches.
I think a great many more are turned-off by the opulence. Not only the high cost of building fancy churches, but the cost to maintain them.
Rodda, go read the Bible. God always wanted and expects the best from us.
“The best” does not necessarily mean structures that are expensive to build and maintain. Nor does it mean what you personally find to be “the best.”
Faith inspectors of generations past harshly criticized some of the very architectural styles (like Gothic and California Mission) that are so beloved by their progeny today.
Anyone with even a modicum of knowledge about Church History will have a tough time taking the faith inspectors’ rants of “modernism”, etc. seriously.
Your ‘simple and inexpensive’ suggestion is carried out on a daily basis amongst your protestant brethren, rodda. It’s not like the cheap and easy solutions aren’t part of the whole modern ‘sensibility’…or should I say, lack thereof. What Catholics have always understood is, “Truth is Beauty and Beauty is Truth” and these very ugly, monstrous ‘ego-lithic’ paens to the soulless architects and bishops who choose them merely demonstrate the corrupt nature of their hearts. There is such a disconnect between tradition and modernists because these people have lost their way. You may definitely put me down as at least an artist who has spent her entire life pursuing that which was beautiful, spiritually pleasing and utterly satisfying, if not a genuine faith inspector, as I lack any credentials in theology or history for that, but I do know when something is utterly and compellingly right, like symphonies by Mozart and fugues by Bach, and paintings by Mossacio and sculpture by Michelangelo to name but a very few examples. In the final analysis, what makes anything truly beautiful is a heart that thirsts to please God and bring a bit of Heaven to earth through their medium. Mozart or Handel didn’t take the credit for their genius but felt they were just ‘transcribers’ of what was given them from above. I doubt VERY MUCH that any of these architects had any such idea in mind in designing their war bunkers and it’s pretty obvious to me they were bent on pleasing the master they served with the hideous lines that extend horizontally rather than to Heaven, and the enclosed, suffocating inward leading boxes. It’s a criminal waste of materials, money and time to build such horrors and their very presence brings more hell on earth. Just what we need, eh?
And sorry, but Anonymous was me this time…pressed the wrong button. Also, I just read a few wonderful quotes on another website…
Fyodor Dostoyevsky once said: “Beauty will save the world.”
Cardinal Ratzinger once said: “The encounter with beauty can become the wound of the arrow that strikes the soul and thus makes it see clearly, so that henceforth it has criteria, based on what it has experienced, and can now weigh the arguments correctly.”
If it isn’t beautiful, it isn’t worth doing. dbw ;o)
“We’ll hear rants and raves about “modernism””: Rodda, the true prophet.
R,B. Rodda,
Abeca is certainly right. This is one more example of your own self-promoting elitist style doublespeak carping. R.B., Which irreligious department within the Church has you posting as a “professional” Catholic on CCD?
You support the hideous purchase of the planet Krypton looking Crystal Cathedral. You even brag about the deal? What deal? You mean the $100 million dollars that the people are being fleeced and nagged about at every single Mass? That is not right. That is not a deal for the faithful. It is a deal for the fleecers. It is also wasteful spending for an ugly modern and cold structure that will insure the status quo of irreligious so called “worship spaces.”
Next, you posted Amen to removing non-religious bishops when you didn’t mind at all that it was the poor choice of another irreligious bishop, to purchase this money pit. It is irreligious to berate people for kneeling for Holy Communion. You ARE indeed supporting the skewed ability of irreligious bishops to select or build beautiful Catholic Churches. Now we now why because you let us know. RB, Your impulsive explosion to carp about Father Perozich’s decision to remove his parish’s affiliation with the BSA was extremely informative, perhaps a bit more than you were intending to reveal and your latest carp about the projected carping of others is in keeping (and will continue to be) with the now exposed etiology of all of your other so called “good causes.”
Catherine, you connect dots like nobody else.
Catherine, read my answer above in response to Abeca – all contributors to the CCD are entitled to their opinion and should not be subject to words and statements that you feel are correct as you may not be – Also, Fr. Perozich’s decision regarding the BSA was wrong unless his Bishop had reviewed and approved the situation – Did he? -Please let me know –
– Also, Fr. Perozich’s decision regarding the BSA was wrong unless his Bishop had reviewed and approved the situation – Did he? -Please let me know”
Translation= Lavender Mafia Tactic
Golly, Eric, maybe we should run everything by you first to make sure our posts are politically correct and ship shape to pass muster for the thought police. Do we get gold stars if our comments pass your opprobrium? What a comfort to us all to have someone care enough to let us know when we fail to toe the line.
And Eric, I apologize for the sarcasm. I get carried away.
The first line of defense for the heretics since 1962 are the self proclaimed moderate “conservatives” who immediately light into any pesky reactionaries who may dare to utter their concerns about church matters.
We still find some amongst us who are ever poised with hair trigger reflex because they are laden with guilt by association.
How about the Taj Mahoney (A.K.A. Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels) in Los Angeles, can anything be done to make it look like a Catholic church? It has all the charm of a factory or a penal institution. Maybe it could be sold and another Catholic-style Cathedral be constructed. Since the Diocese of Orange, CA bought the Crystal Cathedral, what are they going to do to make it look like a Catholic church? New parishes can have all the beautiful elements representing the Catholic faith, a fine example of this is St. Margaret parish, in Oceanside, CA.
Just what does a “Catholic church” look like? I’m no huge fan of the COLA (particularly what it cost to build) yet I have been to Mass several times there (including the Easter Vigil Mass) which is not true of most of its critics.
Totally lost on the faith inspectors is that while some basilicas/cathedrals/churches are magnificent at putting themselves on display, the COLA is magnificent at putting the Holy Sacrifice of Mass on display. The Sacrifice of Jesus to His Father for our sins and not the building is the focus during the Eucharist. That fact is totally lost on those who have not attended Mass at the COLA with an open mind. Such people are a very easy read based on their comments and confusion.
While I think the price of the COLA is repulsive, and I really don’t care for its looks outside of the Mass, I do now realize what the architect was up to and I do understand how wonderfully it supports the celebration of the Mass.
I thank God the Diocese of Orange bought they Crystal Cathedral Campus. A spectacular deal! I hope they don’t ruin the edifice by trying “to make it look like a Catholic church.”
Rodda, YOU are one of the worst “Faith Inspectors” on this site, and incorrectly interpret much (but not all) of the teachings of the Church.
Your name calling of others is not-even Christian.
If you don’t want Catholic Churches to look Catholic, go to a Protestant Church.
Don’t get upset because you’re wrong. Your “If you don’t want Catholic Churches to look Catholic, go to a Protestant Church.” slur is just plain nasty and ignorant.
There are PLENTY of “traditional” protestant church buildings in this world. Building architecture does not make the Catholic Church. God does.
Your slur of “I hope they don’t ruin the edifice (Chrystal Cathedral) by trying to make it look like a Catholic church” is most disgusting and unexpected of even a lightweight progressive.
If they ever have liturgical dance at the Crystal Cathedral ne Christ Cathedral, I guess we could then call it the Crystal Ball. Wouldn’t you agree, Rodda?
“Just what does a “Catholic church” look like?”: Rodda, if you don’t know, then why do you criticize people who do know what a Catholic church looks like when they see one?
A Catholic church can rightly take MANY physical appearances.
To infer they must all be Gothic or the like (which was once derided as being “crude” by earlier generations of faith inspectors) is simple ignorance.
Rodda, a Catholic church can take only one appearance, and that needs to be symbolic of the Gospel.
Rodda, you and me are not those in the Vatican chosen to make decisions.
They will decide.
We will obey.
The COLA as you call it violates one of the major tenets of the Vatican Document on Religious Architecture which states that the Altar is to be the highest place in the Church, not the lowest which it is in the COLA.
It also violates the USCCB by honoring pro-abortion, pro-sodomite politicians on its “Wall of Honor”, it even has a pro-abortion movie actor buried in its crypt with more, such as Riordan, schedule to be buried there.
Thank God, I am happily one you would call a “faith inspector”. I have tried to take several priests including an Archbishop to the COLA, and they refused my offer.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
I certainly trust your judgment, Kenneth! I hereby nominate you as our official faith inspector and if I may be so bold, I would like to be your gavel rapper. haha.
Can’t we find an official faith inspector that attends a Catholic Church?
To Anonymous:
Show me one and I’ll attend it!
Do you not go to Mass?
Hi Sarah:
We refer to it as the Tod Mahal, after the retired prelate who bequeathed it to us, along with costs running into nine figures. Now we are hit with a diocesan capital campaign. Something tells me that it won’t bankroll a diocesan wide pro life initiative.
Does it somehow make you feel good to refer to Christ Cathedral as “Tod Mahal?” It’s very sad to see you posting that as if you are proud.
The Chrystal Cathedral Campus was a tremendous bargain — a very good deal. If they unnecessarily pump $$$ into the cathedral then that’s on the new bishop.
Gladstone,
Rodda just above showed his true or her true colors. According to his or her thinking a purchase of any building for an unnecessary Cathedral that allegedly saved some money would be a good deal
I was just told by someone who is an Usher at an Orange County Parish about the teams of solicitors or as some call them Facilitators going around begging for funds to pay for that Glass Menagerie. He asked me what I thought of it, and I told him that I would tell them H NO! He was glad that I agreed with him. They, the facilitators, tell the people that they need the money to Catholicize the Crystal Cathedral, but we have heard nothing about the most important thing, where the Tabernacle will be placed amongst many other areas of concern.
We, CRCOA, Inc. wrote Bishop Vann about our concerns regarding the REC, the reply I got back from the priest he assigned to reply to me, was to say the least, very unsatisfactory. I intend to tell him so when I can get the time to write the reply. According to him, it is ok to have heretics speak as long as you have SOME good speakers! Archbishop Gomez did not even bother to reply.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
He acknowledged that there were heretics? Or were you paraphrasing?
It looks like a penal institution, you got that right!…in fact, it’s a stone’s throw from the monolithic granite hewn structure called the L.A. County Jail, in downtown, right off the 101 freeway…from the outside these structures almost indistinguishable…another “sterling” example of Mahony the modernist, blowing money, and erecting a cathedral that would warm the heart, and bring a contented smile to the face of any modernist/ecumenist…(dripping, with sarcasm)
The LACJ is not “granite hewn.” Why do you make comments about things you clearly do not understand?
I feel your pain, Wayne. Fortunately I live in a state that is too poor to build such hideous monoliths…one of the bright sides of poverty, I suppose. Also, we miss most of the fads and fancies that originate on the left coast…by the time they reach us they’re worn out and we can see through them.
“The Venice Biennale exhibit has been the first step on a journey,” he said. “Further down the line could come liturgical art, meaning we could commission modern artists to create altars, fonts, tabernacles, lecterns, pews and kneelers,” he added.”
This makes no sense. Modern artists and architects have created ugly religious art and cathedrals and parishes, but Cardinal Ravasi wants them to create altars, fonts, tabernacles, etc.? And these artists he wants to commission aren’t even Catholic! If you want a Catholic house of worship done right, contact Duncan Stroik. He appreciates the beauty that the Holy Sacrifice of The Mass deserves.
The bishop is using “modern” to mean not “modernism” but artists who are presently doing art … Art is a creative process, at least that art which is worthy to be called art and is not the also ran stuff that forms the norm. Once art is created, all its imitations do not really deserve the same label “art”, but should be referred to by some other label, such as design, or “adjective” art. Sometimes the adjective used to distinguish true are is “true”, as in “true art”. There are not that many “true” artists in history or prehistory; most are replicator artists. Not even innovative artists are all true artists … because innovation can and usually means merely articulating what is actual art. God is the greatest of all artists, and the true artists in history have innovated His art. I think that is what Church art seeks, an innovative articulation of God’s art. The Church has a great history of this, but also a notorious history of salt that has lost its flavor type art and architecture.
Skai, when referring to current artists or craftsmen, you just say artists or craftsmen…you NEVER refer to them as modern artists because ‘modern’ is a title for a specific experimental genre of works produced roughly from the 1860s to the 1970s. Remember, I love being a general all round inspector, not just in faith issues, but in the arts, gardening, grammar, ad infinitum. I’m often wrong but I do so enjoy carrying around my little gavel and thumping people on their little heads. tap tap. Maybe a good whap whap on rodda’s head, but only because he would never feel it. heh heh
Also, Skai, I was awake much of last night w/a bad cough and I was reading your posts about your popcorn habit. Do you just nuke it or do you use oil in a fry pan? My dad made the best corn that way. My brother-in-law got his wife a full sized popcorn machine like in movie theaters for her birthday. haha Isn’t there some dangerous gas or something when you pull open microwave popcorn bags? Didn’t a woman win a lawsuit for lung damage?
For awhile, I studied Industrial Art. That was before I wisely switched back to Engineering. One time, a student who did not want to spend much time on a project just dripped paint from an upstairs down on a canvas, he got an “A+”. Another time an artist was awarded a big award and the so called experts were even proclaiming what his work meant, and he laughingly introduced the so called experts to the real artist, a Chimpanzee!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
The Church(?) pictured looks like an office building.
There is no inspiration, or anything that calls to the human heart, or depicts man’s relationship to God.
There is nothing to indicate the Gospel of the Lord.
A warehouse…it looks like a warehouse…cold, bleak and austere…Mahony’s kind of cathedral…right up his alley…
Personally I have trouble with any Church that does not have a Tabernacle front and center.
I genuflect to my God, Jesus Christ (Body present in the Tabernacle). And when in Churches that do not allow me that privilege I feel denied being able to give God the honor He deserves.
That would include Saint Peter’s Basilica and Saint Patrick’s in NYC in that case.
Many US Basilicas do not have Tabernacles front and center. Its too bad, but some at least are architecturally inspiring.
We have to start paying more attention to the Eucharist in our Churches.
Andy,
St. Peter’s and other Cathedrals have entirely separate chapels for the Blessed Sacrament, and Rodda knows that. If he or she doesn’t than he or she should.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
God made humans with senses. All Churches should depict the Gospel of the Lord to lift the human being toward God.
The Eucharist should always be front and center (in the Tabernacle), since Jesus is the front and center of our Faith.
Everything we do should be to bring us closer to God in every way. We must show our Love to God as only the human beings he made can including through beautiful ‘Catholic’ architecture.
So Saint Peter’s Basilica and Saint Patrick’s in NYC are in error because the tabernacle is not “front and center”?
That’s just pure ignorance. Ignorance that continues to divide the Church.
One parish I used to attend had the Tabernacle in the middle in a huge samovar looking contraption. I didn’t realize that is what it was until one day, sitting next to it, kind of in the back next to where the sliding accordian wall was recessed, a woman came over, carefully stepping over and around all the feet, legs, purses, and so forth that were in her path, and … I had to lean away from the “samovar” so she could get around me and open it up. Lo and behold, she fetched the “bread” and then carefully repeated her minefield walk back through the folding chairs to the stage area where the table and priest were located.
Wow, Rodda, you’re contempt and arrogance leave me breathless. Someone was sharing a personal preferrence and you call him ignorant. That is unutterably rude and frankly, boorish and uncouth. Thanks for sharing your really delightful thoughts Dan, and no, you’re not even remotely ignorant. No one who contributes here is ignorant. We all may have varying viewpoints but just being able to type our ideas, share our thoughts etc. is such a blessing and
not something to take for granted. That we have eyes to see, minds to think and the freedom to express ourselves is not to be taking lightly. God is so good and the best way to let Him know how grateful we are is to be kind with one another, or at least polite! I love Abeca’s passion, and Catherine’s razor sharp mind and Skai’s humor, and Mark’s tenacity, Anne’s gentleness and so many others here are special in some way. Don’t ever be afraid to speak what you feel or care about. Don’t let anyone bully you…except me, because I’m always right. haha. (just kidding, for those that don’t have a sense of humor)
No Rodda, its lying, name calling, and not adhering to the teachings of the Church that cause division.
Guess who the assigned antiCatholic troll is on this thread, folks?
Actually , the Church has a different opinion. See EWTN Tabernacle Placement.
The title of this article says it ALL regarding architecture – “Vatican goes after NON-RELIGIOUS Churches”.
Non-religious is a form of irreligious – which by definition includes exterior architecture that has –
the absence of religion,
or an indifference towards religion,
or a rejection of religion.
Good post MIKE!
Yes, that was most insightful, Mike!
“…exterior architecture that has – the absence of religion, or an indifference towards religion, or a rejection of religion…”
Oh really? And you as a faith inspector is the person who decides which structures pass and fail? Really?
Two prime, hatred targets of the faith inspectors on this forum — the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels and Christ Cathedral include a great deal of Christian symbolism. Beautiful symbolism that is obvious to anyone who has strolled the grounds of either.
My regrets but your personal taste (and those of other faith inspectors) means absolutely nothing when it comes to “judging” a Church structure.
Rodda, what you you have against personality? Maybe you’d be happier in a religion where you are seeking nirvana, ie nothingness.
Rodda, MIKE is not a “faith inspector”, but you are.
He merely “quotes” Church teachings which is being a faithful Catholic.
I have never seen a post by Mike about any either of the Churches you mentioned. Since you made a false public statement, you own him a public apology.
MIKE’s post says it all.
Dives in Misericordia, Rome, is called the Jubilee Church because it was selected to mark the Great Jubilee in the year 2000. It was named after John Paul II’s encyclical and was approved by him. It’s three great sails symbolize the Trinity and allude to the barque of Peter facing the swells of the Third Millenium. (No one at that time knew what would transpire in the next period of the Church.) This innovative Church was built in a working class neighborhood which has been revitalized by the 35,000 visitors that come each year.
The church pictured up top reminds me of…well, nothing.
It’s just an ugly cement cube.
The artisans of past ages must be turning over in their graves.
The churches built since the mid-60’s are nothing but Protestant look-alikes and prompted even more changes inside these churches both materially and in clergy (again, just like Protestant churches).
You are right. Many Catholic Churches of today look like office buildings or warehouses. They don’t inspire the Priest or anyone else.
And when the Tabernacle (with Christ’s body) is not visible, why shouldn’t people act like they are at a sports event?!
Hardly. Most “Protestant churches” around here are quite “traditional” looking. Certainly more so than the average Catholic parish, largely because their congregations gave more in which to build.
To suggest that poor architecture = Protestantism is just pure ignorance and likely a large dose of bigotry.
It has to do with function, Rodda, not form alone.
Rodda! Are you still here? I indulge in this site in order to enjoy the exchange of comments among Catholics and good Christians in general. If I wanted antiCatholic comments I go to NY Times or Huffington Post for as much as I could stomach. An intelligent debate now and then would not be unwelcome here also.
Of course Bob…the modernist’s want an altar “table”…not an altar “stone”…only on an altar stone can a “sacrifice” be made , NOT on an altar table! Where my wife and I attend mass, we have no altar girls, no Eucharistic minister’s, the chalice alone is reserved for the priests, and everyone receives holy communion at the altar rail kneeling and on the tongue. Reception on the hand was an “indult”, it was NEVER supposed to be the norm in the Church! We don’t have any hand holding, or clapping or any extraneous rubbish, that detracts from the solemnity and efficacy of this holy event. Praised be Jesus Christ!
How sad!
Whats wrong Bob One are you just finding out that many of us refuse to take part in the results of the “springtime of Vatican 2″….Your crowd Bob seems to neglect the fact that Mass is NOT a community celebration its not about you or the people in pews its about Christ Our Lord the worship he is due. I guess the complete refutation of your rites brings you sadness, but the Truth hurts Bob
So was Jesus wrong when he said, “take this all of you, and drink it: this is the cup of my blood…do THIS to remember me?”
There was a time when a casual observer could distinguish the difference between a Catholic Mass and a Holy Roller service.
The sacred art in churches, like the icons in the Eastern Rite and Orthodox churches, provide continuous catechesis in addition to beauty and inspiration. That could well be why it’s being corrupted by modernist architects and others. Just a thought. There may be more at stake here than is evident.
You’ve got that right, ted.
The Vatican gets it too.
Extremely well said, ted!!!
To so many of the comments so far, I say yes, but. I went to google images to look at the two churches pictured above. The interiors are awe inspiring; the placement of the altar, the tabernacle, the huge crucifix, etc. They are all about the holy sacrafice of the mass. That said, the churches of the 18th and 19th century that dot every corner of Europe are magnificant as well. They are great representations of their era, as those being built today represent today’s interpretation of beauty. I can understand how one brought up in Europe’s old cities and towns could be shocked at new architecture but that doesn’t make it bad, in my opinion. I have been attending churches built in semi-circle patterns for over 50 years. I like the closeness to the altar and the ambo. When I attend churches with long aisles, generally older churches, I feel that I am forced away from the altar and become a spectator/prayer rather than a participant/prayer. So, unless traveling in which case I don’t have many options, I seldom attend churches with long naves. The point is, we all have our definition of taste and likes about what is Catholic Architecture. It doesn’t make one better than another.
Tastes may be different, but SACRED is something all must stive toward.
The key is “RELIGIOUS” architecture, not someone’s experiment.
“The point is, we all have our definition of taste and likes about what is Catholic Architecture. It doesn’t make one better than another.” Bob One can always be counted for mealy mouthed response
“can understand how one brought up in Europe’s old cities and towns could be shocked at new architecture but that doesn’t make it bad, in my opinion.” Bob One just because its modern doesn’t make it good or better it just makes it ugly. None of these modern nightmare can hold a candle to St Patricks in NYC (or the old St. Patricks for that matter) the Immaculate Conception in DC or any of the more classical design that are awe inspiring rather than these “Borg Ship” catastrophes. I find it to be an interesting correlation that as more of these ugly as sin churches were built masses attendance declined.
Bob One,
Professor Stroica designs very contemporary but very spiritual modern churches. You are dead wrong in you wrongful assumptions as usual!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
There is or was a Catholic church in San Diego area with an inside that was modeled after a factory that builds ships or aircraft. When I was there, the pastor had secular designer art hanging from the walls, for sale, like they do in banks and shopping malls.
Google images of the foligno church. From the side it looks like a psychotic jack’o’lantern. Inside is worse than the outside. I guess you stand for Church? It looks really out of place in its environment.
I know it takes the Vatican a while to get around to things, but San Francisco’s Cathedral of the Assumption was started in 1967 for Heaven’s sake.
You mean Saint Mary’s? It’s not going anywhere. While I don’t care for all of it, those that have actually visited it can attest to many beautiful qualities of the edifice. The setting/view in Japantown is gorgeous too.
Instead the faith inspectors (who have never visited Saint Mary’s) look at photos whip themselves up in a lather while hatefully chanting “st. mary’s of maytag!” What a sad group of people…
Don’t count me among the non-visitors. I have gone to Mass there many, many times over the years, and still do–especially when I can drag myself out of bed in time for the 9AM Gregorian chant Mass on Sunday mornings. That is truly beautiful. And I go to the noon on weekdays when I’m in that neighborhood. But I never drive up to it without thinking how right Herb Caen was when he compared it to the impeller of a Maytag washing machine. It’s not in Japantown, by the way. Geary and Gough is known as Cathedral Hill.
In my pagan youth, Old St Mary’s was pointed out to me; it was one of those moments when God spoke to me through the combination of architecture, context and a soft hurting voice within which I could discern the hope of goodness and deliverance from oppression. The event for me was similar to the story of the talking donkey, the weak prophet and the towering angel with the fiery sword somewhere in the Old Testament. Too bad Rodda is totally blind to the mystical regions of Catholicism and the power and authority that Heaven exercises through it. Countless souls have testified in similar ways.
I have been to Rome…the Vatican and Saint Peter’s basilica…as well as St. Paul’s cathedral, prayed over St. Paul’s sarcophagus. I noticed that everyone received holy communion on the tongue, NOBODY stuck their hands out! If this is good enough for Rome, the Vatican, the very seat of Christendom, why is everyone staggering around with their hands out?…”modernism”, pure and simple! receiving communion on the hand was an granted as an “indult”…never was this supposed to become the norm in the church. Condemned by Pope St. Pius the X as heresy…yet many bishop’s worldwide embrace and teach modernism from the pulpit…in fact, many find it compulsory!
Oh, GOOD! I thought not one would mention holy communion posture and the hand/tongue matter!
Rodda, don’t be bashful, just go ahead and post about the chandeliers in the Crystal Ball … uh, Crystal Cathedral.
R.B. Rhoda…your flippant attitude is like most present day modernist’s, of your stripe…When a person receives on the tongue, abuse and scandal are minimized…when placed on the hand, the sacred host can be dropped, left in a pew (happens all the time, how shamefully evil and sacrilegious)…and most shockingly of all, hosts have been carried off and used in profane ways, at the “black mass”!…other abuses can be discussed, but these are the most severe, especially, the last. Praised be Jesus Christ
My attitude is not “flippant.” I just don’t accept the ignorance and hatred being spewed forth by the faith inspectors.
Your communion comment shows just how ignorant you are. I can easily take a host out of my mouth once I have received it if I so wished. Receiving on one’s tongue in no way limits the possibility to profanation.
Nice try, but absolutely no sale.
Wrong again R.B….we have people at my parish, who watch for people who do just that! They are on both sides of the pew, and ensure NOBODY walks out without consuming the host, or runs away…but in theory, if an evildoer wants to commit sacrilege, he can do it either way. Far more abuses are attributed to reception on the hand than on the tongue…you should google it, if you disbelieve me. Furthermore, why do they only give communion on the tongue at St. Peter’s basilica?…if it’s good enough in Rome, why not the world?…One more thing, communion on the hand, was never supposed to be the norm, it was an indult!…Sadly the modernist bishops in this country have “pushed” it, to become the norm…all leading to that which looks and feels protestant, and smacks of “modernism”…at my parish, we have no altar girls and everyone receives at the altar rail, on the tongue…only the priest drinks the sacred blood…remember, the host contains the entire body, blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord. A wise priest once said that “modernism is an insidious evil, a toehold becomes a foothold, and a foothold invariably becomes a stronghold”. Praised be Jesus Christ
Rodda is correct in that his attitude is not flippant; rather it is simply dull and mocking.
Communion in the hand is an American thingy. You know — Americans — who like to be oh, so different and do everything their own way, like Frank Senatra perhaps, or they stamp their feet and protest with signs. Sorry, I could not help those comments. My own people are a really a strange “race”. And then R.R. Rodda wonders why some of us Americans are protesting against the protesters. It is is in our blood Rodda. We can’t help ourselves. Just call me a rebel against the rebellious.
In other words if you tell me I cannot do it, as an American I AM going to do it, even if it means being stubborn about Communion on the tongue only. Just joking but I hope everyone has a good laugh.
Sorry, R.R. Rodda, I just had to tease you a little. Actually I do like the bell tower of what used to be the Crystal Cathedral. it does point heavenward though it is modern, and I find it quite attractive and inspiring looking.
You’re opinion. I’ve seen FAR more hosts fall on the floor when “placed on the tongue” than when placed in the hand. And I haven’t attended a parish that widely uses that form since about 1980. And besides, communion on the tongue is ueually practiced in places that don’t offer both species, a practice which I think disregards Jesus command to “do THIS to remember me”.
Anonymous…when you “allegedly” saw these host’s which were on the ground, what did you do?…I’m just curious how you would have addressed so shocking and sacrilegious a sight…
Anonymous, now we find out that you keep an eye open for the dropping of hosts during Communion; this in addtion to your watchful supervision of your neighbors at night shows what can be done to keep everyone safe and sound. I’m sure you don’t take pictures of all the indiscretions you find in your ‘hood and post them on youtube.
Different anonymous poster.
Anonymous, I take the Host on the tongue all the time, and it has never fallen to the floor, it sticks to the tongue because of the moisture. The altar server can catch it with a paten or one can catch it with the hands if it starts to fall.
CCC: ” 2513 The fine arts, but above all sacred art, “of their nature are directed toward expressing in some way the infinite beauty of God in works made by human hands.
Their dedication to the increase of God’s praise and of his glory is more complete, the more exclusively they are devoted to turning men’s minds devoutly toward God. ”
CCC: ” 2503 For this reason bishops, personally or through delegates, should see to the promotion of sacred art, old and new, in all its forms and, with the same religious care, remove from the liturgy and from places of worship everything which is not in conformity with the truth of faith and the authentic beauty of sacred art. “
The Christ Cathedral is beautiful. I used to pray, every time I drove past it, that it would become a Catholic Church. (Sorry, to those who don’t like it.) The Jubilee Church is beautiful. It is Dives in Misericordia (Rich in Mercy) I didn’t like the cube church, Chiesa de San Paolo. but seeing after a Youtube video I like better. It does have pews and Crucifix and tabernacle. This was an area that was devastated by an earthquake. It was supposed to be a symbol of rebirth. I know an agnostic who was very impressed by the Cathedral of Our Lady of Los Angeles. If you don’t like something, maybe you just shrug and say “It must be God’s gift to someone else.”
Is it really Anonymous or is it Apathyous?
Anonymous writes… “The Christ Cathedral is beautiful. *I used to pray, every time I drove past it, that it would become a Catholic Church*”
Gee anonymous, That is the exact same sentiment that many Catholics feel when they drive by their own parish Church.
Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder but Truth should NEVER be watered down just because you were able to water it down for a bargain.
So your objection to the Christ Cathedral is that it used to be an evangelical Church?
You’ve heard the saying that we pray as we believe? So maybe it is equally true that we build churches as we believe?
As I recall, most ‘classic’ church design, statuary and art was considered novel or even avant garde when it arose centuries ago. The excellent gains acceptance and is maintained. The rest is allowed to fall into disrepair and eventually into dust. Meanwhile, novel edifices, statuary and art emerge. Some gains acceptance and survives. The rest decays and decomposes. The cycle continues.
Actually, some of those statues and painting were reportedly done by Angels. The statue of Our Lady of Pillar in the Cathedral of Our Lady of Pilar in Zaragosa, Spain is one of them. The point is none of them are what you would call modern art!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Quite true. Some of the very styles of architecture beloved by the faith inspectors today were attacked by earlier generations of faith inspectors. Interesting how that works…
Name one case, Rodda.
“The problem is that in Catholicism, unlike Protestantism, things like the altar, the images, are essential, while architects tend instead to focus on space, lines, light and sound,” said Cardinal Ravasi.
The above is overly generalized sewage. SOME denominations of Protestantism are identical or nearly identical in their liturgical arrangement requirements with regard to the Catholic Church. The Anglicans and Lutherans come most obviously to mind. Ravasi must be exceedingly ignorant or he’s simply another faith inspector trying to stir the pot.
The book, “Ugly as Sin” by Michael S. Rose, is well worth a read concerning the construction of churches since VII. In it Rose also quotes the catechism, “visible churches are not simply gathering places but signify and make visible the Church living in this place, the dwelling of God with men reconciled and united in Christ.”
Having lived in Europe for 7 years, I have seen the magnificence of the churches in many countries. I have seen many churches in the U.S. (especially in the East Coast) that also are very beautiful and wonderful places to worship.
Many other churches, again starting in the mid-60’s, ignored Catholic tradition for a “modern” interpretation (if it ain’t Catholic, it must be Protestant – if that is “bigotry,” so be it) – these are studied insults to “the dwelling of God.”
That book is a polemic written by a bookkeeper who has absolutely no background in what he was writing about. Just the sort of stir-em-up hate book that appeals to the faith inspectors.
I meant to say ‘you’re’ not your such an expert.
Wh’o, Dana, are you talking about?
heh heh…I got censored. I can’t remember what I wrote but it must have been a bit too hard on Mr. Rodda.
RB writes, Just the sort of stir-em-up hate book that appeals to the faith inspectors.
Just the very mention of Michael Rose’s Books, ‘Good Bye Good Men’ and ‘Ugly as Sin’ always stir up the RB Rodda agents within the Church.
God Bless the Faith Inspectors
One day a cab driver in Cologne, Germany, picked up a Russian tourist, and drove him around for a while. The Russian would remark after each tour site how much bigger and better the Russians did things. He began to challenge the German cabby to show him any evidence that the Germans could compete in time and scope and beauty with the Russians. The cabby pulled the cab over and parked in front of a huge and old church, which had a sign saying Cologne Cathedral. The Russian puzzled, asked him why they stopped there, since it was an old building and not nearly as big as what the Russians were building in their cities. The cabby replied that he was puzzled because just the day before it had been an empty lot.
nice post Skai
haha. Good one, Skai.
What goes on inside the Church is far more important than the Church’s appearance. Services inside a dilapidated shack can be far more meaningful than a mass said inside the most beautiful cathedral.
While aesthetic appeal is wonderful, we can’t let it’s lack prevent us from seeking God inside.
JonJ, the Gospel wants the world to know also what goes on … which is one reason that church buildings developed expressions attempting to do this.
Marketing has it’s place, Skai. And, yes, marketing isn’t always “scammy” or illicit. Letting people know about an organization’s presence and what it offers are legitimate activities.
I just think we need to keep the perspective that faithfully seeking God is much more important than to allow ourselves to get distracted from this purpose due to the appearance of a particular Church.
Void symbolism is boring Jon J….I don’t think you get it, my friend…statuary, sacramental’s, stained glass, the station’s of the cross, the Pieta’, the crucifix itself…are all visual reminder’s…it help’s stimulate man’s worship…helps him to focus on things much greater and holier then himself…don’t you get it? Furthermore, these holy and beautiful sacramental’s are created for the greater and glory of the Creator…man is a creature of flesh and blood, he is not Supernatural…these archetypes are integral, and help to stir up zeal and devotion in the laity…as I said Jon, “void symbolism” is boring and has no place in our Catholic faith…
People on this site certainly have their strong opinions on the subject of art and architecture. I find it more interesting, however, to read what people think constitutes Catholic architecture and Protestant architecture. There are many comments that would seem to indicate that Protestants have only bad architecture. Have they not visited St. John Divine in New York, Grace Cathedral in San Francisco, etc., etc. just to name a couple? After VII, the design of churches was focused on making the altar the central focus of the building. All eyes should be directed to the place where the Holy Sacrafice would take place. That is why many churches brought their altars out to the people or new churches were designed in a semi-circle. The call for active participation brought the choir from the loft to the front of the church, etc. Some architects didn’t give us such good buildings, but overall, we have some magnificant new churches in which to worship. But no one, yet, on this site has been able to define what a Catholic church should look like. To say that it must be Gospel centered is not enough. I would like to hear what that means. What shape should it be? What color? What material? Etc.. Could someone do that, please?
Bob One, you display an inordinate fear of strong opinions, which explains why you do not have any. Would you agree that your ideal church architecture would look like a pablum box?
Skai, you are not reading me well. I have very strong opinions about what a church should look like. I am also aware that my opinion doesn’t gee with those of many on this site. Many express the fear that our churches are starting to look like Protestant churches, but won’t say how. For example, we have altars and most Protestant churches have altars, we have stained glass and most of the ole line, at least, have stained glass, we have candles and so do they. We have ambos and so do they. We have aisles and so do they. What makes the big difference, it seems to me is that on our altars we celebrate the holy sacrafice of the Mass. They celebrate, many of them, a eucharistic service that we don’t think is the real thing. So, much of what we call Catholic is not the important difference. It is what goes on on that altar that is so important. Therefore, Mass can be said in a home or in a warehouse or a gym, so long as the members of the body of Christ, the Church, are in attendance and participating fully. It is the Mass that makes a church Catholic, not the architecture.
Bob One you always expose yourself: “a eucharistic service that we don’t think is the real thing.” its not a matter of opinion Bob its a matter of fact, IT IS NOT THE “REAL THING”
“Skai, you are not reading me well”: Bob One, it’s your bureaucratic mindset that seems to be oblivious to any other way of life which ticks people off. You actually seem to think that everyone believes what you are talking about. You never engage an argument with reason, but only with emotional mush.
“participating fully”: Bob One, you have said the magic words, “participating fully”. That, Bob One, is the whole issue. The novus ordo structure foils the fullness of worship, attenuates the fullness of participation. You are a brilliant genius, Bob One, for you have found the core problem with the OF, aka novus ordo liturgy. And of course, we are reminded that Jesus said, “Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word the proceeds out of the mouth of God”, which does not happen a lot in the novus ordo from all the reports and from all the observations of it over many decades now. Bob One, how soon do you imagine they’ll begin moving your cause forward?
Very true. The notion that “Protestant Church Architecture” = “ugly” or “modernist” is simply sicko faith inspectors crap. Maybe some of the F.I.’s need to go on a field trip and visit Grace Cathedral in Frisco? That might be a dose of reality for them!
I find it stunning that the Faith Inspectors whine about “churches in the round” (probably because EWTN told them to whine) because “people become the focus of worship” (utter bunkum!) yet they just love cruciform shaped churches that also allow people to see one another.
We just feel the love radiating from you, brother Rodda. Your warmth, your compassion and your genuine Catholic understanding just permeate your gentle expressions such as, sicko faith inspectors and ‘whine about churches because EWTN told them to’ . Your love of modernism and liberalism in the Church just flows out of your sweet loving heart and must surely please those of like minds, like Cardinal Mahoney and Cardinal Law. I’m sure if you saw me injured on the side of the road you would call 911 as you drove by. Thanks for your living testimony to the true liberalism that is infecting…oops, I mean flowing through the Church.
“because ewtn told them to whine”: typical mindset of a step and fetch it, Rodda, who envisions everyone doing only what they’re told to do. Rodda, have you ever thought about getting a life of your own?
Rodda, seriously, upon reflection you really do not hold with much of anything you’re posting, right? You’re just saying it because of your strange sense of humor? That’s it, isn’t it?
In my pre-Catholic days, while a catholic school student, we attended the occasional masses in the gymnasium and sat in the bleachers. Incollege, at a secular university with no full size chapel, mass was in the library multipurpose room complete with foldup chairs. So I’ve always found simpler, humbler places more spiritual than huge gothic cathedrals. My taste only, not at all saying that is THE way to find God.
The only exception to the “big church” aversion was Saint Peter’s in rome. It is truly a modern building with enormous symbolic significance. I knew Peter’s tomb was in the building underneath the Church, but I had NO IDEA that those littl esteps we see lead down into the crypt. You are Peter and on this rock I build my Church. Brilliant architecture!
And OMG is the eye drawn to the altar from all around this enormous church! The altar is truly the center, as it should be. And interestingly, there is no crucifix hovering over the altar as there are in most parish churhes. Instead, a simple dove hovers over the altar. WHERE else can one experience THAT theology!
And for all it’s magnificance, St’ Peter’s is a simple church. Not ornate in a baroque or gothic sense. Really quite simple in its design despite its enormity. And in its simplicity and strength, it points us to the sacred mysteries.
I LOVE st peters, and I love a mass celebrated in an auditorium. To me, they both bring me close to the Christ who opens his arms for us, wherever we are.
Bob One, Jesus clearly teaches us that He can work with strong or with weak, but not with bureaucrats.
Modern church architecture is symptomatic of the overall decline of faith manifested by a cheapening of our rituals and liturgies, phenomena that started with the second council. There is no way to fix humpty-dumpty until we admit that the “aggiornamento” of the sixties was a monumental error. I see no signs on the horizon that our present generation of prelates is prepared to do so.