The following is a July 11 Catholic Culture article:
The Vatican has moved quickly to counteract a suggestion by Cardinal Robert Sarah that priests should celebrate Mass ad orientem.
Father Federico Lombardi, the director of the Vatican press office, issued a statement on July 11 saying that Cardinal Sarah’s address to a London conference had been “misinterpreted,” and emphasizing that there were no new official directives regarding the ad orientem posture.
Speaking last week at a conference in London, Cardinal Sarah– the prefect of the Congregation for Divine Liturgy– had asked priests to begin celebrating the ad orientem liturgy on the first week of Advent. He had also urged bishops to encourage their priests to do so.
But Father Lombardi stressed that Cardinal Sarah had been speaking for himself, rather than issuing a Vatican instruction, and “there are no new liturgical directives starting from next Advent.” He went on to cite the General Instruction for the Roman Missal, which suggests that Mass should ordinarily be celebrated facing the people.
The Vatican spokesman said that these matters had been confirmed at a meeting between Cardinal Sarah and Pope Francis. The Pontiff had met with Cardinal Sarah on Saturday, July 9.
The statement appeared to be a direct rebuke to the cardinal, who had twice mentioned during his London address that we had the full support of Pope Francis in his quest to reform the liturgy along the lines suggested by Pope Benedict XVI.
Father Lombardi also said that “it is better to avoid using the expression ‘the reform of the reform,’ referring to the liturgy, given that this has sometimes been the source of misunderstanding.” That expression has been commonly used by Catholics who, like Cardinal Sarah, seek to restore a greater sense of reverence and dignity to the liturgy.
No new directives are needed. A priest may choose to celebrate ad orientem in the novus ordo Mass on his own. It is currently permitted by the GIRM even though rarely celebrated that way. Cardinal Sarah was encouraging priests to use an option that is available; there was never any suggestion of a directive.
As for the reform of the reform, that is a legitimate expression and a necessary activity at present.
It is “available” but not “preferable”.
Most priests, even although they have that option, would flatly refuse even if most of their parishoners wanted it. They want pride of place, front and centre instead of Our Lord. Even the Bishop’s chair in most cathedrals is placed directly in front of the tabernacle so that the Bishop is sitting with his back to Our Lord
Sad but true.
“…As for the reform of the reform, that is a legitimate expression and a necessary activity at present.”
So is being baldly honest about that ambiguity that has led to such nonsense.
Let’s be clear: It is a rebuke to both Cardinal Sarah and to the Pope who coined the prhrase “the reform of the reform”. I believe that would be our Pope Emeritus Benedict. Or at least those who use the Pope’s words to suit their own agendas.
When the Vatican Press Office revised recorded remarks made by Pope Francis last month in which he originally said that “the great majority of marriages are invalid” so that the official transcript read “a portion of marriages are invalid”, was the Pope rebuking himself?
Let’s be clear, after all.
In a way he was. What is your point?
Oh, YFC, you again? Are you still shilling for that anti-Catholic gay foundation?
But like at St. Matthew’s in Long Beach, no restriction on homo “Masses”. No restriction on clowns or banal music or jokes during the liturgy or not following the rubrics. Heaven forbid we should have ad orientem worship as God’s people have done since the time of Moses. No, let’s keep with the Novus Ordo, the work of heretics. Let’s continue to divorce ourselves from the pre-Vatican II Church. Man should be at the center of Mass. We should turn on back on Christ and worship ourselves. As has been prophesied, the Church will see more division and bishop opposed to bishop.
what is a homo Mass?
You gave me a good laugh, Ray.
a homo “Mass”, is a liturgy that is for the purpose of celebrating the homosexual lifestyle, commonly know as LGBT. It is a mockery of our Lord and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Cardinal Vincent Nichols has been in favor of such.
Some more of the “fruits” of Vatican II. What madness. The Church was the one true constant in a world of chaos and turmoil, the beacon that shone brightly in a world in darkness. Now the beacon is dimmed by disputes among the leaders, a radical pope, ungodly dissenters among the laity. The heretical Council was the trigger that loosed this disaster upon the Church. Back to basics, Pope Francis, restore the ancient liturgy and get control of your troops, it seems that the enemy is much better organized than you are.
To me, for the priest to offer Mass turning his back to Christ, is rude to Christ. Canon 13 from the 7th session of the Council of Trent, infallibly teaches: “If anyone shall say that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church accustomed to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments … may be changed by any pastor of the churches to other new ones: let him be anathema.” Cardinal Sarah and Trent are correct. Though Cardinal Sarah is not the pope that we deserve, he is the pope that we need. May God be pleased to make it so.
Don G. let’s be clear. There have been several Councils since Trent. The concept of infallibility is new. It has only been used twice since its inception a few years ago.
“The concept of infallibility is new”? Time for a little catechesis!
Councils have been defining things infallibly since First Nicaea. Vatican II was unique as a council in that it didn’t define anything infallibly, something spoken about by Pope St. John XXIII when he convoked the council.
Look for the “anathema sit.” More often than not, that’s the code phrase for a conciliar (or papal) infallible teaching.
The day’s session for Dogmatic Theology 101 now concludes.
According to the Catholic Encyclopedia: “That the Church is infallible in her definitions on faith and morals is itself a Catholic dogma, which, although it was formulated ecumenically for the first time in the Vatican Council, had been explicitly taught long before and had been assumed from the very beginning without question down to the time of the Protestant Reformation” (newadvent.org). The Vatican Council ended in 1870. Is 1870 “a few years ago”? What is your source for “it (infallibility) has only been used twice”?
Don Guillermo and Fr. Michael, you can see that Bob One has a unique view on church tradition (“the concept of infallibility is new”). A thousand years are like a day, in his sight. Ps. 90:4. :)
Steve, I’m sure you have heard about the discussion a man had with God, when he asked what a million years was to God, and God said “its like one second”. and then the man asked God if he could grant him a million dollars. And God said “let me think about that for a couple of minutes.”
Aren’t the Immaculate Conception and the Virgin Birth the only two Infallible dogmas in the last thousand years or so?
Please, who is the priest offering the Mass to?
I agree most heartily with you, but you must realize that the Council of Trent is obsolete in today’ s modern Church. All things are new and subject to change. “Hope and Change” That was the slogan of another set of crooks that sought to seize power in our country. You see what that has gained us. Has all these changes benefitted the Church? Nope.
Cardinal Nichols Insults Cardinal Sarah, Discourages Mass Ad Orientem
Comments: Catholic Mom of 6 • a day ago
This is a camp song; a child’s song. My children loved singing it when they were about 4-8 years old. Grow up Fathers.
Catherine, oh that we serious adults could have the free spirits of children. A serious belief in our God is meant to be joyful. Christ is about happiness, joy, love,exultation, etc. It is not about being dour..
Jokes and screwing around have NO place in the liturgy, full stop. We come together to witness the sacrifice of Calvary, ain’t nothing funny about that. The Novus Ordo mass has resulted in the destruction of reverence for the Mass and for sacred rites in general. If you need to have fun, wait till after Mass.
Bob One, what do you think of silly charismatic priests, of post-Vatican II?? Rolling on the floor, giggling, talking in “glossolalia,” singing, laughing, dancing, shouting, believing they are “filled with the Holy Spirit?” I think this is all silliness and ignorance, myself! I will continue…
In the writings of the Saints, and in my own life– I observe, that the True Christ comes when we least expect, suddenly, and He can especially come to those who seek Him, when one is alone, quiet, prayerful, recollected, and still– and open and receptive to God, too! When Divine Love and Joy descends (usually, unpredictably!) upon us, it is not like human beings willfully stirring up their crude, human emotions. Divine Love is very sublime, refined, heavenly! And then– just as unpredictably!– Divine Love and Joy also will suddenly depart! A very rare, precious, and special moment, for us to remember!
I will add something, to my post, above. It is true, that Christ comes to everyone in very unique, personal ways. So, if someone finds Christ in a way that I don’t (such as a Charismatic Mass, or Charismatic prayer and healing group), then that is just wonderful, and I would encourage them to follow their religious path! Our Church does accept many different ways, to follow Our Lord! I was embarrassed to tears, almost, when some friends, about the year 1970, dragged me to a Catholic church, to try out this form of new “Pentecostal-style” Catholic worship! Oh, how embarrassing!
Well said, Linda Maria. For the Lord moves the soul like a drop of water entering a sponge – not like a clamoring band enters the city streets.
The saints call those moments consolations.
I went up to Communion one time, and after I received the Host, I felt an overwhelming sense of peace and joy that lasted for about a week. Nothing could disturb me nor bother me. A priest told me it was infused grace. I would love to have that consolation again, but they only seem to come when the Lord chooses to send them and we should not seek them (consolations that is) according to many books by saints.
We should not seek them overtly because we can become attached to the consolation rather than God. But as Francisco de Osunas says in his Third Spiritual Alphabet, there is nothing wrong with asking God to console you if He so wishes. For it is easier to progress when we are under the effects of infused grace. And our advancement is what God desires, so long as we advance according to His will and time.
That is pretty much what I have read, too. I think St. Teresa of Avila said mostly the same thing. Thank you for reminding me Anne Malley.
Ann Malley, I received this consolation when I attended a post Vatican II Mass. It was a long time before there were any Extraordinary Ministers, and the priest gave me the Sacred Host after he had given a sermon that made me feel very close to the early Christians saints. Perhaps that triggered it. As far as getting into all the controversy over one Mass being better than the other, it depends on the person, and I do prefer the Traditional Mass.
Thanks, Anne T. and Ann Malley, for your posts, regarding the consolations of God! Yes– I recall when young, being taught that we “should not seek the consolations of God,” but seek, instead, the “God of consolations!” And we should not be attached to them! However, we are all just poor human beings— and life can be so hard, at times! And spiritual life, is VERY hard, too, sometimes! I love to read inspirational stories, in which people relate times in their lives, in which God has come to them, and has lovingly bestowed His gifts, of sweet consolations!
AnneT, thank you for your post. I’m glad for your experience, but a consolation for an individual doesn’t negate the realities surrounding the rite of mass. Our Lord moves where He wills, when He wills, and as He wills. One doesn’t even need to be at mass to receive such consolation. Not at all.
The controversy regarding the rite of mass is not a matter of preference at its root. Although enjoying mass is helpful. Everything seems easier when our feelings are aligned with whatever is required.
But that is another reason why folks need to be cautious about consolations. The Devil can and does make use of the “but it felt so right” to mislead us. I am not saying that with regard to your experience. But that is another reason even…
… St. Teresa advises extreme caution in such areas.
Her first line response, if I recall correctly, to any sister revealing mystical experience of any kind was to order them to eat meat. Something forbidden by their rule and only granted with permission. The reasoning behind the treatment was to dispel any illusions.
Cardinal Sarah is highly recommending ad orientem worship for sound reasons. For grace builds upon nature. And consolations are not the norm.
You may want to read St. Ignatius’s Discernment of Spirits.
Bob One, the Mass is the reenactment of the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. The only people laughing at his crucifixion were those who approved of his death. Even Baptists and many Protestants take seriously their Communion services when they have them and are very reverent at that time. They is plenty of time for fun and laughter AFTER the Holy Mass.
Here’s one for you, Bob One,
“When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.” 1 Corinthians 13:11 (NAB)
Those are the words of St. Paul who knew the difference between being childlike and childish.
Our Lord was pretty serious when the situation merited, Bob One. I don’t think it was a happy whipping session as He drove the buyers and sellers from the Temple, or a gleeful, “Get behind me Satan,” that was said to St. Peter when he floated the idea of avoiding Jerusalem.
Sadly, too many equate being a child with being a rube. But not all children are dumb, Bob One, but rather quick to see through that which is utter garbage. Why? Because they have no guile in them, that is no overt intention to deceive.
Today, however, we have a great many children who have been habituated to use their “child’s cuteness” to manipulate and feign joy that is really nothing but rebellion and self indulgence. Something used against the lawful…
… authority to paint reason as “dour”.
Or do you prose the Weather Girl model for Catholics. Reporting the carnage of a tornado or drought with a DaVinci-veneer smile because one hopes to make it past the weather desk to the position of anchor in short order.
Clinton R., I completely agree! We desperately need the Pope and his leading Churchmen, to face reality on the massive worldwide liturgical destructions, since Vatican II!! I can’t believe our post-Conciliar Popes and Church leaders, have allowed such a horrific mess to go on, for all these years! No common sense!
Isn’t it rather devious and indeed demonic to imply, as the writer of this article does in the title itself, that the Holy See has “rebuked” one of its own, Cardinal Sarah? I mean, it is the conjuring up this atmosphere of intrigue and politics and rivalry within the Curia among lay people like your folks that plays into the Enemy’s agenda of dividing the Church? And as more people comment here, especially commentators of this here blog, more of this “rebuke” spin will be mulled over, analyzed, trumpeted, condemned.
People, let me tell you how you should all think about this. The Press Office is helping us all and Cardinal Sarah by clarifying that ad orientem has not been mandated officially. Ok? Ok. Now, stop your…
intriguing and get to work.
jon, sorry– but you should know, that the Vatican has had corruption, politics, and intrigue, for centuries! Most recently, the Vatican has had the “Vatileaks scandal,” the corruption in the Vatican Bank, and the “gay lobby,” to name a few! Cardinal Sarah is excellent– and priests and prelates are all free to follow his suggestions, if they want! However, Pope Francis does not have the same views as Cardinal Sarah! Everyone knows that! Pope Francis and Cardinal Marx, sadly, are very similar– and do the Church no good! Especially, with the controversial “Amoris Laetitia!” The Vatican is often, sadly– its own worst enemy!”
I hope lots of priests decide to take the advice of Cardinal Sarah, and say the Novus Ordo Mass, ad orientem! Great idea! And yes– it is expected, that the Pope will not like most of what a very good, orthodox prelate, Cardinal Sarah, has to say! A journalist can call it a “rebuke,” or a “discussion,” between the Pope and Cardinal Sarah— but it does not matter. I am just hoping Cardinal Sarah will not be booted out of his high post, someday, by the liberal Holy Father– like poor Cardinal Burke! We are so BLESSED to have Cardinal Sarah!
Exactly it has had intrigue in the past, and the comments such as yours perpetuate such deviousness through the centuries. DOn’t you hear how gossipy you sound? You do. And so you repent LM.
jon, if you ever do see cries and evils happening in your parish church– remember, it is a BIG RESPONSIBILITY TO CALL POLICE, and NOTIFY CHURCH AUTHORITIES, TOO!! Hope you won’t do like others, and HIDE YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND, DENYING CRIME AND SIN IN YOUR CHURCH — WHILE PRETENDING YOU ARE A “GOOD CATHOLIC!!” USE YOUR BRAINS, jon!
Sanctimony is so unbecoming. Remove the beam from your own eye.
Somehow I think your response there is tone-deaf to what I was just saying. So says anything about denying? WHat I am calling you on here LM is irresponsible words you write trying to divide the Church, your words which perpetuate this atmosphere of intrigue and politics. WHy don’t you pray about it. Maybe you’re not praying enough which is why you feel the need to spew negativity all the time here. Pray and repent Linda Maria. Pray and repent.
“…WHat I am calling you on here LM is irresponsible words you write trying to divide the Church, your words which perpetuate this atmosphere of intrigue and politics.”
Again, jon, look to the prelates whose behavior foments an atmosphere of intrigue and politics. Perhaps you should pray more and petition them to repent.
Unfortunately, if the prelates behave in a manner that bespeaks intrigue and politics, the flock will logically follow to comment on the grass of the increasingly odd pasture.
Bark up the right tree!
Oh that’s fresh Ann Malley: Do you really expect us to believe you that the “flock logically follow” if the clergy talks intrigue. Yeah right. So, you imitate your clergy when you see them causing scandal and sinning? Yeah, right. Nice try AM. As I had said before, you had lost your credibility.
jon, you don’t have any credibility due to your own posts here and lack of logic. If you accuse LM of leading folks astray by fomenting intrigue then you need to understand that the true intrigue comes from the shepherds who give such intriguing witness to the seeming desire to disturb, distract, derail etc.
What’s fresh is the juvenile pretense that leaders aren’t responsible for the ripple effect in the flock. Look to the source, jon, the constant rocks, don’t gripe at the water for rippling. That’s what water does.
Leadership doesn’t mean lording it over the flock. You may need to revert back to scripture.
jon, thanks for your common sense. Some people just need to make a soap opera out of everything.
“Let me tell you how you should all think about this.” “Now stop your intriguing and get back to work”. -jon the eparch, 7/12/2016
Thus intones jon, the transcendental eparch of Seal Rock and the Outer Castro—advice he so readily gives but doesn’t take himself, on his mission against “perpetuating such deviousness and intrigue”—of course, he wouldn’t think to stoop to such low standards, no, no.
Linda Marie, we must bow and due obeisance.
Campion— jon is too young, too over-reactive, regarding the only Church he knows of, the post-Conciliar “mess,” badly in need of good reforms! The “renegade” Pope and Cardinal Marx, on the other hand– reject the new Catechism written after the Council– and deliberately defy their own Church, and do whatever they want! Strangely, jon does not follow his own “renegade” Jesuit Pope and Cardinals– instead, he clings to the written words, of books like the new Catechism, and Code of Canon Law– which the Pope and his favorite prelates, keep on rejecting!! What a mess!!
Yes, jon: you are exactly correct. It is much ado about nothing.
Given Cardinal Sarah’s position as prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, I suppose some people wondered whether Cardinal Sarah’s encouragement of ad orientem celebration of Mass should be taken as reflecting the Holy See’s official stance. The clarification states that it does not. That’s all.
What was true before is true now: ad orientem is a legitimate option in the novus ordo Mass. Cardinal Sarah encouraged its use and the Holy See said that opinion is not an official policy. That’s that.
Again, we have Sawyer agreeing now with jon whereas before he was in agreement with YFC. That’s interesting.
What’s also interesting is the pretense of a that’s -that about a gross overreaction to what was demonstrably a suggestion and nothing of an official policy.
Perhaps, Sawyer, you should direct your “much-ado about nothing” conjecture to the Vatican instead of attempting, again, to blame the sheep for reacting to the over-the-top, bizarre stimuli presented them by the shepherds.
This overreaction compared to the zero reaction that is given when prelates endorse a welcome of homosexual gifts is rather telling. And just because you put your hands over your eyes as proof of faith doesn’t mean others are called, by…
… God, to do the same. Quite the opposite, Sawyer.
This pattern of your is deeply concerning.
Ann Malley, it isn’t just Sawyer, but I and a few other people I am sure agree with Jon. We are tired of comments like yours that seek to foment division in the Church. When there is so much hatred and division in the world already (Islam vs. Christians, blacks vs. whites in the US), you want to gin up more division by talking up intrigue and division in the Church. The Church is supposed to be the sign of unity; but commenters like you seek division.
I think what some people here “worship” are the rubrics of the TLM, you “worship” the appearance of piety, you “worship” your brand of Catholicism, which is not Catholicism at all but your faulty version of it.
Cardinal Sarah did not imply that there was any sort of official mandate.
He made a suggestion.
Those with an agenda and the media have blown it out of proportion. Some people seem to be very afraid.
Excellent point, “TheVeiledThreat”: There is great fear, and stubborn pride, in those that helped to destroy Catholic Tradition and continue to enable this destruction. The institutional Catholic Church is all but destroyed. The Vatican and the largely apostate episcopacy insist on “obedience” to something that was made up some decades ago (and that does not work well today). Proof: study after study shows that the “average Catholic” simply has no knowledge of his Faith, and not much interest in learning it. So many examples are given that it is now commonplace of Faithful clergy speaking at Catholic high schools about sexual morality, including homosexuality, and being shouted down by irate Catholic parents and students. C…
(Part Deux); “Cardinal Sarah is completely correct and did not go far enough. Of course, the present rulers of the Church go nuts when anyone even suggests that Catholic Tradition, and the TLM, must be taught and embraced. Pope Francis very recently said that the TLM cannot replace the N.O. Why not? The N.O. has been a failure and acts as clerical cover as the Church is simply destroyed by the clergy that does not teach the Faith and by people that show up for Mass here and there, without understanding at all how to live a Catholic life.
St. C, if the NO is a failure, then I would expect that no one would attend each Sunday. Yet, millions go to Mass and fill the churches. Is there another 25% out there that should come back to the Church? Of course. But there is no statistical evidence of anyone leaving because of the NO. Think of the timing. Anyone born after 1960 has likely never attended a Latin Mass and might very well not know it exist or that anyone goes to it. I have kids in their 50’s and I know the wouldn’t attend because they don’t know the language. It was easier when we studied Latin in high school.
St.C, Good question. Why not? Why should any priest that is brave enough to want a TLM not have the liberty to choose? We know a good pastor that spent his vacations training @ a TLM seminary (?) to learn the Holy Latin mass. He kept the proper altar & communion rail in his older parish. He WANTED to add a TLM after the encouragement by Pope Benedict. He mentioned his plan to the bishop. Bishop said, he wasn’t ‘ready’ & needed ‘more training’ in the TLM. Long story short, this pastor was re-assigned (put on the shelf). His old parish only has NOM. May God bless him for trying.
“…I have kids in their 50’s and I know the wouldn’t attend because they don’t know the language. It was easier when we studied Latin in high school.”
The above statement is absurd unless, of course, we’re ready to admit that the American school system has failed because Dick and Jane are no longer encouraged to know how to read.
As for “easier” what is easier is usually not valued at all. That’s why many Americans suffer from the malaise of luxury. Nothing requires effort and so boredom in everything sets in quickly. Thus the need for spangles, jangles, excitement and the seeking of feelings being forever appeased takes the place of the good. The necessary.
Sorry, Bob One, but adults should know how to read. If they…
… don’t, they should learn and be encouraged to do so.
Or are we looking to move toward the Jetson age wherein even a good meal is to be had by popping an easy capsule.
Pope Francisco and his ruthless Jesuits are disrespecting Black Catholics. No respect no peace. Lío hagamus.
I pray daily (almost) for a long and blessed life for Benedict XVI who brought us where we are.
By his recent statements about celebrating the Mass ad orientium, it is apparent Cardinal Sarah was getting too far ahead of the Pope. While it is obvious Cardinal Sarah is papiable and may be the first African Pope in the modern era, he needs to consider the big picture with regards to the future of the Church.
God Bless Cardinal Sarah! And may God bless C. Sarah’s work for a long, long time. Especially when C. Sarah becomes Pope one day. SIGH. In God’s good time. In the meantime, I think God is testing all.
A seminary classmate forwarded me an email from his bishop that banned them from celebrating ad orientem except at EF Masses. And, I take it, there aren’t many of those there.
Fr.M., With the ‘ban’ was there any rational provided as to why?
The appeal was to the GIRM paragraph that Fr. Z spoke about last week as being mistranslated. That bishop seemed to have no inkling of the CDW clarification Fr. Z dug up.
Thanks for posting about the “ban”. Says a lot….. a lot about what we already know, but what too many are too afraid to admit.
The almost palpable fear of priest and people praying to God while facing God together is outrageous. Much like that lovely custom of supposedly providing the Lord a fitting place outside the most prominent place in His own home by remodeling broom closets to be adoration chapels.
In response to Bob one; people attend the NO Mass because they are offered nothing else. They have no knowledge of the reverence and majesty of the “Mass of the Ages”. In spite of the motu proprio issued by St. John Paul, the true mass was denied to most of the faithful by their disobedient Bishops. As to language, Catholics worldwide have used missals for many years to assist at Mass.
That’s true. We would be at the TLM if it were an option at our parish. (Oh how I wish.) Also, as mentioned in other posts, Latin-English Missal Booklets are available for praying the TLM (for those that have never had Latin or don’t remember much) from the coalition in support of Ecclesia Dei. You can purchase one @ http://www.ecclesiadei.org and/or usually at a TLM. The prayers are so lovely. And the RC Daily Missal (1962 still in print, Angelus Press) has so many other good devotions, prayers, references. The best mass is being ignored & I cannot understand why it isn’t an option in at least half of the parishes by now. God bless Cardinal Sarah & Pope E. Benedict for their support.
Most of our Novus Ordo Bishops are scared silly of the TLM because many Catholics become dissatisfied with the NO liturgy once they experience the True Mass. To go from the NO to the TLM requires not just a change in rite, but a change in attitude, and many times a change in behavior and a change in lifestyle. One becomes very much more aware of one’s Catholicism.
There are no Novus Ordo Bishops
The NO is a True Mass.
TLM is celebrated at many parishes which also have several NO masses, and in fact, the majority still prefer the NO mass even when given a choice.
The sad part is that folks who push the TLM have a minimal grip on truth. Or at least the ones we hear from on this website.
Anonynous, I think that the poster to whom you are replying, means that the bishops of today’s church, whose main Mass in the “Ordinary Form,” is the Novus Ordo Mass– are simply referred to by this poster— as “Novus Ordo” bishops, for short. And so many of these bishops are not interested in the TLM! Very discouraging, for many devout Catholics! Give this poster a break!
It is also VERY TRUE– that many of our bishops since Vatican II, are “scared silly” to allow the TLM– because it is true, that many Catholics may “fall in love” with the TLM– and never return to the NO Mass, which all the bishops are told by the Vatican, they must promote! That is the reason Pope Paul VI felt forced to SUPPRESS the TLM, and PROMOTE the ugly, modern, irreverent NO, which no one really liked! In Italy, it is said that many Italians still spit on the site where the first NO Mass was said, by Paul VI!!
Anonymous, the limited understanding of the truth is demonstrated on all sides. And contrary to what you may believe, personal preference is not the indicator of what is best.
So the idea of giving the choice as somehow being a gauge of what is good is no gauge at all.
Abused children often miss and lament the loss of a parent – even though that parent abused them. Why? Because that is what they are accustomed to. Not what is best.
Becoming hot-under-the-collar and personal about these discussions is what undermines truth and genuine discussion.
I knew this was to good to be true, oh well still waiting for a Holy Pope to save the Roman Catholic Church and restore the TLM.
So wrong. The Church HAS BEEN saved, no other than by Our Savior Christ Our Lord. Haven’t you head?
We work out our salvation in fear and trembling, jon. It’s not once saved, always saved. And even those who appear within the Church can lose salvation by doing that which they know they should not.
Ann Malley: I would like to suggest that you please read the post you are commenting on before you yourself comment on it. Jon was talking about Janek’s comment that a pope is to save the Church, which is theologically wrong. Christ has saved the Church and the world. So please read first otherwise your comment reads to be irrelevant and tangential.
Ann Malley likes to jump to conclusions.She’s especially hostile to people who support Vatican II because she, apparently, does not affirm it as a valid and authoritative ecumenical council. She’s also very defensive about her posts, so expect her to reply with two or three boxes that may or may not be on topic but will have lots to say about your deficiencies.
Actually, Sawyer, I seek clarification of the position of others. We should, like you attempt to do, correct that which is in error. For while Jon may feel his answer to be justified, the answer is incorrect.
Much like your presumption that challenging your position that seeks to elevate a pastoral council to be more than what it is mistranslated as hostility is simply off the mark.
Yeah, right Ann Malley: So following the Pope, defending the bishops, upholding the documents of Vatican II, being devoted to the Mass of Paul VI as well as the TLM—all of these I have done—is IN ERROR?? I don’t suspect you really hear how disobedient you sound. I do hope for the sake of your soul that you repent, that you have faith in Our Lord especially when He said that “the gates of hell shall not prevail” against the Church. YOUR point-of-view would have us believe that the Church has not been protected by the Holy Spirit from errors on faith and morals. And that POV of yours AM, IS HERETICAL!
Janek, are you another one of those TLMers who do not accept the validity and authority of Vatican II?
Pope Benedict XVI already restored the TLM. Have you not heard of Summorum Pontificum?
The TLM is not a panacea for the Church’s ills.
The constant haranguing against Bishops who don’t encourage more TLM Masses than wanted by the 2% really should stop. Let’s be real. Ten Bishops of the U.S. will reach retirement age of 75 this year, born in 1940. VII was in the mid-sixties. They may remember the TLM from their youth, but since seminary the NO has been the Mass to which they say daily. The retiring Bishops will be replaced by other men in their early to mid 50’s, born in 1960 or later who have never experienced the Latin Mass. For them it is an oddity. And, this is important, neither Mass provides more grace than the other. Its just what we like.
Neither of the two Masses provides more grace, but the TLM is more fitting and conducive to the reception of grace.
Bob One, so many of today’s bishops– are sadly, NOT good, practicing Catholics, nor are they sincere Catholic BELIEVERS! Plus, the Church has been so lax in teaching her Faith and Morals, since the close of the Council, in 1965! Many bishops– such as McElroy and Abp. Cupich, for example, or Cardinal Marx, in Germany (etc.) do not even BELIEVE in our True Faith, let alone our beautiful, 1500+ years old, Traditional Latin Mass, of our Latin Rite Church, of Rome! It all has nearly collapsed, Bob One! We only have a very, VERY FEW, faithful, true practicing Catholics left, in this world– and many of them, prefer our traditional Tridentine Latin Mass! They DESERVE SUPPORT!!
Linda Maria, the kids who text have an abbreviation that they often use: IMAO. “In my arrogant opinion.” It takes a lot of brass to accuse today’s Bishops of not being sincere Catholic believers. The arrogance is overwhelming! Perhaps it is we who haven’t kept up with Church teachings, with recommended practices, etc. All of the Catholics that I know try very hard to be true to the faith. That doesn’t mean they have to seek out a TLM every weekend to meet your standards of piety. Your post, and similar ones are what drive people from the Church. The 1% telling the 99% they are going to hell all the time..
Bob One, devout /Catholics do not necessarily favor one form of the Mass over the other! It has nothing at all to do with loving the Tridentine Mass more than the Novus Ordo Mass! It all has to do with being taught the Catholic Faith and Morals correctly, and really believing in it!
And making the effort to be a good practicing Catholic! You must never confuse “arrogance,” with the rightful concern of good Catholics, over dangerous stuff, such as the big, worldwide worry, among good Catholics, over the recent Synod on the Family! Big worry, Bob One! The intention is NOT “arrogance,” Bob One– it is definitely WORRY!!
Bob One, I have heard many young Catholics say, that they have recently tried vey hard, to educate themselves in their Catholic Faith– after going through 12 years of Catholic School, plus another four years, spent at a Catholic college! They feel so badly– because NO ONE cared enough, to teach them their Faith, in all those years! I have even heard young priests say this, too! And when they were able on their own, to educate themselves in their religion– they were overjoyed, and very excited! They next began an eager practice of their Faith! A big challenge, and a thrill, too!
No, Bob One, it doesn’t take a lot of brass. That’s pretense on your part. What it takes is a serious look at the demonstrated disconnect between the job of upholding, defending, and passing on the faith and the voiced desire and actions of willfully diluting it.
That’s what “keeping up with” recommended practices do when those practices are ones which have been proven to abrade “Catholic” faith.
“Your post, and similar ones are what drive people from,”Catholic Faith – even if they co-opt the Church for yoga meetings and Buddhist get togethers.
Catholics don’t want the Novus Ordo, that is for sure. They have voted with their feet. 75% of Catholics don’t attend Mass on Sundays and this Novus Ordo mess. Mass attendance with the TLM was over 75% in the mid 60’s. Now Mass attendance is 25% in the U.S. if not lower. It hovers around 3% or 5% in most European countries.
Asbury Fox, so if the decline in mass attendance is due to the rite itself and not some other factor, how do you explain the fact that mass attendance in Europe was already plummeting by the time Vatican II started? And how do you account for the fact that those who have left weekly attendance haven’t flocked to TLM masses instead?
“…And how do you account for the fact that those who have left weekly attendance haven’t flocked to TLM masses instead?”
It takes GRACE to desire the good, YFC. Catholics who are starved lose a taste for the truth. They turn toward the world. Much like a dieter who slowly introduces the fats and excess carbs and salt into his/her diet loses the taste for discipline – even though it is healthy and for their good.
That’s why watering down the rite is the natural means to turn folks off from the truth contained therein.
The mysterious “other factor” is disillusionment after 2 world wars, YFC. This is why St. Ignatius, in his Discernment of Spirits, advises not to change one’s methods during a time of desolation. For the…
…. spirit under which one is operating is not a good one.
So wondering why overweight individuals who have no exercise routine aren’t jumping off the couch to attend Buds training is ridiculous.
“Let’s be real.”
Indeed. Let’s diagnose why it is so many Catholic bishops are against the TLM.
And, this is important, while there is grace to be had, one must be properly disposed to receive the benefit of said grace. Scripture is clear about eating and drinking damnation, Bob One, as pertains to not properly discerning the Body and Blood of the Lord. That is the grace is there, but one can actually harm oneself by receiving said grace unworthily.
This is why teaching and the outward signs surrounding sacraments are very important. Human beings a creatures with 5 senses. So while you may be comfortable with a certain practice, what makes said practice good is the benefit or demonstrable fruit. A person with Celiac disease…
….can eat until the cows come home, yet die of malnutrition. Why? Because there is an issue of whether not the nutrition from the food is absorbed into the body.
Similarly, a pipe that is clogged with all manner of refuse will not deliver clean water, even though there is clean water being pumped through the pipe.
So let’s be clear. Nobody is saying the NO is invalid. Rather that the rite surrounding Our Lord, that is grace, does not have the solid natural foundation that will gird up that reality. This has delirious effects.
TOTALLY WRONG ANN MALLEY. You have just denigrated the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in the Ordinary Form. Read your own words there: “Rather that the rite surrounding Our Lord, that is grace, does not have the solid natural foundation that will gird up that reality.” That’s TOTALLY heretical! .ALL sacraments VALIDLY offered are efficacious in the transmission of God’s grace—including the Ordinary Form. You should go to Confession for your denigration of the holy Sacraments of the Church, belittling it, making people DOUBT its efficacy for the salvation. How dare you try to weaken the faith of others! You have a lot to answer for.
Jon, please try to read more slowly or respond more slowly or ask questions. The integrity of the rite is important BECAUSE the Lord is present. Again, I am not saying that the NO rite is invalid, rather that it is not what it should be.
And the transmission of God’s grace is NOT the same as gaining the benefit of said grace. God sends His graces all the time and they are ignored, rejected, or just wasted.
You may fear that legitimate discussion weakens the Faith of others, but Catholics of a certain age are required to grow and discuss a great many things. It’s fear mongering like you’re doing right now that preclude education… and growth.
Ann Malley: legitimate discussion? Your denigration of the sacraments is NOT legitimate! The rubrics in the OF are “not what it should be”?? Says who?? You??
Ann Malley, the rite that is used now is much more like the rite used by the Apostles than the TLM. That does not mean that there is anything wrong with the TLM. There isn’t. Just like there is nothing wrong with the other rites of the Church. Space does not permit us to give you a full liturgical education but you can find many resources to help you understand better the realities you are attempting to understand. You should also try to acquire a better understanding of the graces and the Real Presence. God’s peace to you.
God’s peace to you, Anonymous, but the fruits of that which was foisted upon the faithful under the guise of being “more like that of the Apostles” has proven itself deficient. Sadly, what passes for a liturgical education these days requires advanced classes in sophistry in order to explain away that which is easily observed…. out of the mouths of babes.
As for God’s graces, you should apply the basic understanding that grace builds upon nature. That is why turning people away on a natural level turns people away. Faith comes through hearing and is a gift from God.
That is why the rite of Mass should, by virtue of the Presence of the Lord, be the very best that it can be, supporting the realities therein. Not detracting from…
To me, a person talking about the “fruits” of the Mass being deficient is a red flag for someone who really does not understand Catholicism. Liturgical education is not sophistry
Grace builds on nature has absolutely nothing to do with the term in the way we were using it and as you seemed to equate it with Jesus Christ in your post.
Are you confused or are you attempting to confuse?
A wolf in the sheepfold…or are you even Catholic?
You need to support your assumption that there are “so many Catholic bishops against the TLM”
Who are they?
What have they said against the TLM?
Anonymous, there is no need for me to provide what you ask in this forum. Much like one in a chemistry lab doesn’t need to give proof of the periodic table.
If you are not up to speed on the climate within the Church, then it is you who should withdraw and better educate yourself with regard to the fullness of our current situation. Or, just check your schedule to understand you’re in the wrong classroom.
Figures. You really can’t provide any proof for your negativity against the bishops of the Church. All you have are your “hunches,” emotions, feelings, hysterics. This negativity is fueled by sympathy towards sedevacantism, the SSPX, which really wish to castigate the Church. And why wouldn’t they be? They’re in the margins of it; they’re like the elder brother in the parable of the prodigal son; they are contemptuous of the lavish love of the Father, the lavish love of the Church. The devil can’t stand that, and neither can his children of negativity.
I know of no bishops against the TLM. And apparently, you don’t either. Good.
Jon, there is nothing negative about acknowledging the truth and embracing it. Hiding the truth is not what the Catholic Church is intended to do. That is why the Devil is delighted by the aping of unity, especially when the term is built upon the sand of pretense that denies the truth.
Build upon the rock, jon, and then you don’t need to be afraid of what you’ve been taught is negative. Truth is good. It hurts sometimes. But being stripped of illusions is healthy.
Methinks jon channels an excellent “Elder Brother” himself. Charity, kindness, goodness overflowing, yea.
Ann, this stuff is laughable. Statistics on how many bishops are liberals? It’s common knowledge that the very reason Pope Benedict stepped in with his own Motu Proprio was that so many bishops defied the wishes of PJPII. If people want statistics, research it themselves, but tough to get numbers on double agents wherever they exist in society. As St John Chrysostom said, the floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.
Ralph, it is sad. We have so called Catholics pretending that unity is to be had by just saying everything is the same, okay, no biggie, and – by the way – all bishops are orthodox and great. (But hey, if men are women and women are men now, what’s the biggie?!)
Maybe that’s why the Church has had to pay out for all of that stellar behavior.
As for quoting St. John Chrysostom, best watch out. You’re promoting elitism by talking about saints and stuff. Be prepared to play Devil’s Advocate to determine worthiness. I know we don’t have Devil’s Advocate anymore, but orthodoxy is the only thing that has to meet any bar these days ;^)
To be really honest, those who want to attend the TLM are very small in number. For example, a diocese with over a half million Catholics have 1000 people who attend their TLM Masses. Parishes who have polled their parishioners on this issue usually come up with less than a handful of people who want it. This is not even an issue in most parishes and diocese. It is not the bishops, it’s the laity.
“All you have are your “hunches,” emotions, feelings, hysterics.” = IOW completely ignore, “Pray that I do not flee for fear of the wolves.”
A few years ago, a friend in Idaho said that his entire parish rose up, from their pews during Mass and cheered and clapped when it was announced that their bishop was being transferred. These faithful Catholics witnessed this same bishop early retire many good and faithful priests who STILL wanted to serve God. This bishop then closed parishes without warning. People were then scattered and forced to drive very long distances to attend a reverent SSPX Mass and the diocese did not care. These Catholics were driven/forced out by progressive yoga lovers aka the “let’s not be negative crowd.”
A few years ago, Cardinal Arinze told a friend in Kentucky, “You have a very bad bishop.” Sadly, in Arizona it took a hit and run death before another bishop retired. God bless Cardinal Arinze for not playing jon’s progressive game of let’s pretend and deny. jon would have called St. John Chrysostom a child of negativity too. No more positive/negative energy yoga classes for jon. When there is a crisis or grave danger of bishops eliminating necessary words from the Catechism under the guise of tolerance and mercy, then the faithful should not remain silent. Especially when new replacements are likeminded seminary buddies.
To those who say it’s the laity and not the bishops who don’t want the TLM, get a clue – it was a hierarchical group who devised the NO out of thin air (headed by a Freemason, no less), shoved it down the throats of an unsuspecting Catholic populace, then bishops acted like the TLM was not authorized by doing things like ignoring it, and suppressing Wanderer subscriptions, and then presto chango, 2 generations later the laity don’t even know about it by design. Why would they want it?
In the early 1700s the masonic secret societies declared as their goal infiltration of the Church. The examples here certainly give one pause.
About one third of the Founding Fathers, signers of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were Masons. Remember the history of Maryland, to which Catholics were relegated because they were not “real” Christians.
That’s right. And I personally don’t like that operatives of the same strain have infiltrated the Church to corrupt it from within. In 1888, 4 yrs after Humanum Genus, Pope Leo XIII wrote: “Even in the holy place where the see of Blessed Peter and the Chair of Truth was set up to enlighten the world, they have raised the abominable throne of their impiety with the iniquitous hope that the shepherd may be stricken and the flock scattered abroad.” These are the people that revoked the Oath Against Modernism, and gave us the NO.
God bless you, Ralph, for mentioning the revocation of the Oath Against Modernism. So many Catholics don’t even know what that is…. let alone comprehend the perfect storm created by ambiguous “official” documents and no requisite promise to interpret things the way the Church has always done.
And yet we “wonder” why the hermeneutic of “continuity” isn’t engaged.
Hosemonkey, Per your 13 July comments: “They have no knowledge of the reverence and majesty of the “Mass of the Ages”. In spite of the motu proprio issued by St. John Paul, the true mass was denied to most of the faithful by their disobedient Bishops.”
It wasn’t JPII but BXVIth that delivered the motu proprio.
We had a beautiful and reverent Tridentine Latin Mass today honoring and worshipping Our Lord at Liberty Station Chapel in Pt. Loma today. Father’s sermon, the day after Our Lady of Mt. Carmel’s feast day, covered the value and power of the Brown Scapular given by Our Lady as a sacramental to St. Simon Stock. Father handed out Brown Scapulars and initiated many into its ranks. Thank you Jesus and Mary for your Sacred and Immaculate Hearts and those moments of Heaven on Earth this morning. Pray the rosary devotedly and daily if you can.