The following comes from a Dec. 23 story on Homiletic and Pastoral Review by Father William Clark, OMI
Over the past 50 years or so, a profound change, other than that effected by Vatican II, has taken place in the Catholic Church. It might be described as the phenomenon of “vanishing Catholics.” The Canadian philosopher, Charles Taylor, has identified four major challenges facing the Church today. First on his list is the exodus of young adults from the Church. According to recent demographic surveys, it seems there are presently 30 million people in the U.S. who identify themselves as “former Catholics.” That figure is both surprising, and, for Catholics, disheartening. It represents a little less than 10 percent of the total population of this country. It also means that had those persons remained Catholic, approximately one in three Americans would be identified as Catholic. Only two religious groups represent a larger percentage of the U.S. population: Protestants (cumulatively) and current Catholics.
This phenomenon is disheartening not only for bishops and priests, but also for faithful Catholics generally. Many older Catholics are saddened at the sight of their children and grandchildren abandoning the Church.
Questions naturally arise. What has caused such a massive defection? How might one account for this phenomenon? It hardly seems possible that any single factor could explain a phenomenon of such magnitude. Various reasons for people leaving the Church are well-known. Many of them have been operative from the earliest times of Christianity. In his first letter to Timothy, St. Paul reminds him that “The Spirit has explicitly said that during the last times some will desert the faith and pay attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines …” (1 Tm 4:1-7). In his first letter to the Corinthians, Paul speaks of dissensions and divisions among the faithful (1 Cor 1:10-16).
From the first centuries up to modern times, there have been doctrinal differences (heresies) which led to great numbers separating themselves from the Roman Catholic Church. Many others have left the Church for what can be described as practical reasons, rather than doctrinal differences.
Among the latter, there are many who separated themselves from the Church because of marriage problems. There are those who left because they became greatly dissatisfied with inadequate preaching, uninviting liturgy, and minimal hospitality in their parishes. It seems worth noting that expecting church attendance and public worship to be therapeutically satisfying often leads to disappointment and eventual alienation.
Not a few have left the Church because of real or perceived mistreatment by bishops or pastors. Reactions have a way of becoming overreactions. An overreaction to clericalism and paternalism in the Church resulted in autonomy becoming absolute. Evelyn Underhill offered a helpful analogy in this regard. She likened the Church to the Post Office. Both provide an essential service, but it is always possible to find an incompetent and annoying clerk behind the counter. Persons who expect all representatives of the Church to live up to the ideals proposed by the Church will typically become disillusioned and leave. Persons with such expectations would have left the Church of the Holy Apostles.
Most recently, a cause for many leaving the Church is the scandal of clergy sexual abuse. This has been a stumbling block not only for those directly affected, but for Catholics generally. Because of the questionable role played by a number of bishops, their moral authority is diminished. The time when bishops could command is past. Now, they can only hope to persuade and invite. Loyalty to bishops had been widely identified with loyalty to the Church. As the former loyalty diminished, so did the latter.
Clearly there are times when the Church is more of an obstacle than a help to faith. At Vatican II, the Council Fathers pointed out that the Church is always in danger of concealing, rather than revealing, the authentic features of Christ. Often enough, members of the Church’s leadership have been guilty of a sin typical of many religious teachers—namely, being more concerned about preservation of their authority than about the truth.
While specific reasons can be cited, it is helpful to recognize several underlying attitudes that are operative. (1) There is an anti-dogmatic spirit which is suspicious of the Church’s emphasis on fidelity to traditional teachings. (2) There is the widespread belief that one can be free to ignore, deny, or minimize one or more received doctrines without feeling compelled to break with the Church. (3) There is also the belief that, guided by their own conscience, regardless of how that matches—or fails to match—generally accepted Catholic teaching, persons can develop their own understanding of what it means to be Catholic. Someone has coined a phrase that describes persons with those attitudes, calling them “cafeteria Catholics,” i.e., those who pick and choose what to accept of official Catholic teaching and ignore the rest….
Obviously, the Church must work at removing any obstacles to reunion. With Vatican II, that work was begun. The Council recognized the Church is semper reformanda, always needing to be reformed. The actual return of individuals requires something more than an adjustment in Church practices or new programs. It is a matter of God touching the individual with his grace….
to read the original story, click here.
“First on his list is the exodus of young adults from the Church. According to recent demographic surveys, it seems there are presently 30 million people in the U.S. who identify themselves as “former Catholics.” ” These two lines represent a staggering loss of faith.
With all due respect, Father William Clark has just written a gross parody or is under threat of death not to connect the obvious dots back to Vatican II. The work (of undercutting the transmission of Faith) wasn’t begun there, but it was certainly given a more formal go ahead.
Good grief.
Yes Ann: The anti-dogmatic “work” started long before Vatican II and reached it’s summit in 1953 when Archbishop Cushing surreptitious had Father Leonard Feeney excommunicated for teaching, ex cathedra: “There is but one Universal Church of the Faithful outside of which there is absolutely no salvation.” Lateran Council IV.
You’re correct there, Warren, as the ‘spirit’ of Vatican II was prowling around, looking for chinks in the fortress of the Church long before VII.
Kind of like a ‘breakout’ author who just splashes upon the scene from supposedly ‘out of nowhere,’ with such a new and innovative perspective. Those who don’t write believe, mistakenly, that the person just wrote a book and whamo they are famous. And the ideas they promote are so insightful and progressive. Biggest fallacy ever as there is nothing new under the sun.
Those who know the ‘business’ understand that these writers have been working behind the scenes for years, often decades, trying to push their creative ideas until it becomes accepted and/or garners such a cult following that they overthrow the prevailing ‘norm.’ And everyone cheers.
We are such unmitigated SHEEP! Thank God, Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart will triumph in the end. So said, stay in the state of Grace as best you can, put on the seat belt and ride the ride.
God bless!
Not to mention that Vatican II was hijacked by liberal Bishops & liberal priests, and they made the New Mass with the help of 6 Protestant ministers! Is it any wonder why people left in droves?
RR, the modernist mentality seems little more than that of a mischievous child intentionally wanting to test the ‘limits’ just to see if their parents really DO love them… or FIX anything. You know, “It’s said that God will send His angels to protect you to keep you from harm, so jump off this cliff so we can all SEE the ‘glory’ of the Lord.”
But while they embrace the mentality of Satan in quoting scripture, they ignore completely Our Lord’s admonishment not to put God to the test. Following God’s word, however, does get boring in the human sense (He expects us to hang onto our cross even as He did.) which is why we’re always clamoring after signs and miracles, novelties and cross-relievers. Even the miracle of attempting to auto-destruct the Church just so we can – Wow, Amazing, COOOL – see God’s hand in keeping it together. So childish – not child like.
This is an example of the lies that Satan has fostered to destroy people’s confidence in the Mass and in the Church. That is really not true! It really comes down to whether you trust God or not. Do you believe that Jesus is the head of the Church? Do you believe He is all-knowing, all-powerful, all-wise? Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is the infallible guide of the Church? Do you believe that an ecumenical council is guided by the Holy Spirit? I know you will be tempted to say “All of them but VII.” Either they are or they aren’t. If Vatican II was not, then none of them were. Either you believe in God and His promises, or you don’t. If you don’t and you believe that the Church is run by men and can err, then you are not any different than those who thought that and left during the Reformation. Catholicism requires trust, great trust, in God. The devil will make small things seem large. He will tell you that serious things are more widespread than they actually are. Remember, the devil wants you to err. He will play on your pride and convince you that you have the true faith and that the Church is run by dissenters and heretics who have abandoned the Faith. It is, of course, another of his lies. He has convinced a lot of people that the Catholic Church’s teaching and morals are faulty. Don’t be one of them. Educate yourself in the True Faith. If you are uncomfortable with Vatican II, then read things from prior to it. Know it well and live it. Never attack the Church or any member of the clergy. Don’t waste your time on silly chatter or on the analyses of disgruntled Catholics. God bless you. St. Joseph, I ask for your special protection of RR as she seeks to purify her knowledge. Obtain for her the grace to always know the Truth. Blessed Mary, give her the protection of being held within Your Immaculate Heart. Prevent evil from reaching her and obtain for her from Your Son the love of Eternal Wisdom.
“…If you don’t and you believe that the Church is run by men and can err, then you are not any different than those who thought that and left during the Reformation. Catholicism requires trust, great trust, in God.”
The Church doesn’t err, Anonymous, but the men who run her assuredly do, much as a Father can err in his headship of a family. But no, the Church Herself will not falter just as a family will not cease to be a family despite the sins of the Father.
But to blindly go forth with our engaging proper prudence in judgement is to negate Our Lord’s having given you intellect. The same intellect that must be engaged by wife and children when a father refuses his duty to the detriment of the family. It is charity that keeps the watchful eye, trusting yes, but blind and taking unnecessary risk, no.
correction…
But to blindly go forth WITHOUT engaging proper prudence in judgement is to negate Our Lord’s having given us an intellect.
Ann Malley, you know the one about the blind men and the elephant, right? I think you should trust God and not your own judgment. It is very easy to use a false idea of prudence as a justification for doing your own will. You are kidding yourself if you think it is prudent to harm the reputation of Holy Mother Church.
“Prudence is the virtue that disposes practical reason to discern our true good in every circumstance and to choose the right means of achieving it; “the prudent man looks where he is going.” “Keep sane and sober for your prayers.” Prudence is “right reason in action,” writes St. Thomas Aquinas, following Aristotle. It is not to be confused with timidity or fear, nor with duplicity or dissimulation. It is called auriga virtutum (the charioteer of the virtues); it guides the other virtues by setting rule and measure. It is prudence that immediately guides the judgment of conscience. The prudent man determines and directs his conduct in accordance with this judgment. With the help of this virtue we apply moral principles to particular cases without error and overcome doubts about the good to achieve and the evil to avoid.” CCC 1406
There is no way that attending illicit Masses is your true good. There is no way that committing the sins of detraction and slander against the Church and Her clergy is your true good. I am sorry that you have such a poor image of the Church but as often as you are told that it is incorrect, you refuse to listen. I was praying over you and it was revealed that you will always find bad things when you go to Church because you have taught Satan how to succeed in making you run. Stand firm with your Mother. Make the decision to stay as long as Jesus stays. Make a resolution not to leave Him. You will be tested but when Satan finds that you no longer run, he will stop and you will see the beauty and goodness in the Church. You are Satan’s pencil and he is using you to write those things that he knows will lead others astray.
God love you, Anonymous, I am doing nothing to harm the reputation of Holy Mother Church. I do not have that power. The hierarchy does, however, and has and still does. So if you take issue with anyone, take issue with them. (I hope you are as assiduous in writing your local Bishop as you are in admonishing those on CCD who merely comment on what they experience.)
As to you ‘praying’ over me, you are the same Anonymous who took me to prayer before and was told to leave me alone. That in itself tells me you believe yourself to be some special conduit of locutions and unique messages – dangerous ground, Anonymous, as Satan insinuates himself that way too. You may want to stop listening to those voices and pray instead of attacking victims. Yes, victims. Pray to see your own sin and hypocrisy and pride.
That said, Satan is and always will be of an angelic nature and therefore I am incapable of teaching him just as you. But neither of us are immune to his snares. You may want to look to yourself with regard to being his pencil/typewriter for you advocate wholesale blindness, not Faith per se in the actual Faith or the liberty of the Holy Ghost who does not work against Himself.
That is why your proclamation with regard to ‘illicit’ masses is a joke as, “…The prudent man determines and directs his conduct in accordance with this judgment. With the help of this virtue we apply moral principles to particular cases without error and overcome doubts about the good to achieve and the evil to avoid.” CCC 1406,” is precisely that which guides me away from what you advocate.
Your monkey see no evil, speak no evil jargon may work for you. And that is wonderful. But I need consistency in the consistent message that correlates with what the Church ACTUALLY TEACHES, Anonymous. So does my family. We’re human. Go figure.
Ann: Liars figure but figures don’t lie. A simple look at all the significant statistics, comparing the state of the church before and after the second council, clearly establishes a positive correlation Only the willfully ignorant still deny it. The Catholic church tanked world-wide.
Vocations were reduced to a trickle. The novus ordo alienated many. Our Catholic Culture ended with the council.
That’s why this pep-talk renewal malarkey makes me ill, Anton. Because it was the same folks who tanked the culture on a progressive lark. Reminds me of that couple up in Canada who figured they’d raise their child as neither male nor female. What a fun, intriguing experiment, right?
I don’t think for one moment they took the child into consideration despite, what I would imagine, was a heap load of rationalizations necessary to carry out such a scheme. And what of the child? Poor thing, (no pun intended) has had all manner of frustrations because he cannot understand why so many people think he is a girl.
Much like Catholics of today who don’t understand being considered non-Catholic or Protestant in their thinking.
But ours is to fight the good fight. So keep at it and God bless!
If you know someone who has left the church, please give them a rosary. Present to them a problem-health or other, something serious, and ask them if they will join you in praying a Rosary novena for this intention. You can do it together or separately. Call them with news on the intention. Also pray this prayer for their conversion with a contrite heart and with faith: O Blood and Water, which gushed forth from the Heart of Jesus as a fount of mercy for us, I trust in You. Our Lord promised St. Faustina that he will give them the grace of conversion.
I believe the great majority of US Catholics have forgotten that the Devil prowls the world for souls. You can experience the work of the devil every day, and even in our churches. I recently started reading a classic book, which was a textbook for me in college – “A Popular History of the Catholic Church”, by Philip Hughes. Oh my goodness, the trials that the Church faced during its history. The book was first written in 1949 so it has not even touched upon the last tragedies which have occurred since Vatican II.
Yes, the devil s alive and well, but though he may be winning many battles against the Catholic Church – he will not win the war.
It’s good to acknowledge the crisis in the Church. I’m in education, where we compromise academic integrity and lower standards in order to attract and graduate more students. Yet, is that a model for the Church? Vatican II said Yes. Hence most of us today are cafeteria Catholics, if we are Catholic at all. Prostituting our Faith has gotten us into this mess; prostituting it even more will not get us out. Put integrity first and the numbers will follow.
So the author denies the cause in the loss of the faith of millions of unpracticing catholics is V2. There are truly many reasons for the loss of their catholic faith, but the root of most of those reasons is truly V2 which changed the church inside out. This change was greater than or equal in magnitude to the protestant reformation of the 15th century, and especially Martin Luther who started the Lutheran church. Yes if the holy fathers of the past centuries were able to decide and judge today, I believe they would excommunicate the inventors, perpetrators, and executioners of V2. To deny V2 is the fault is only sweeping the evidence under the rug and deceiving the remaining want-to-be faithful. It is not just a random coincidence that the church began to implode at the beginning of V2 and has continued eroding downhill since then. All of the 7 holy sacraments were changed beginning with the Sacrament of Holy Orders in 1968. Think about the repercussions that has imposed! Now the modernized 7 sacraments are all void of sanctifying graces. Without sanctifying grace, we are all weaker, unable to defend the true Roman Catholic faith, especially if we were not taught traditional teachings from pre-conciliar Roman Catholic catechisms. Today’s V2 church leaders do not want to admit of wrong-doing to protect their jobs; however, what about protecting their souls and those sheeple in their dioceses? There is only one way, God’s Way as He so described via tradition to His 12 Apostles, and Saintly Doctors of the Church throughout Roman Catholic church history. We need to return to our catholic heritage, the 7 holy sacraments before V2 which will restore and put the church back on track with God’s plan of salvation for holy souls. V2 caused many awful things, for example it drove thousands of clergy from their religious vocations in the late 1960s before pedophilia by the modern clergy began. It caused countless liturgical abuses, and thousands of pedophile crimes, but the greatest tragedy of all is that it caused millions to lose their Roman Catholic faith (due to a loss in sanctifying graces) which the post-conciliar bishops will have to answer for on their judgment day. Pray the rosary for restoration of Holy Mother the Church and God’s forgiveness of our sins.
Has anyone ever heard of a Pedophle that was not a Homosexual?
Therein lies the problem of the Roman Catholic Church today!
The Bishops and the Pope must rid the Roman Catholic Church of all of the Pedophile priests immiediately as they are just there to feast on the young members of the Church, otherwise more and more will continue to leave the Roman Catholic Church with their menetary support as well.
It is absolutely time to Clean House!
Remember, “one Bad Apple spoils the whole Barrel”.
Jesus even had to see Judas leave the flock for what he did.
The Devil’s Deciples must forced from the Church, just as St. Michael the Archangel forced Satan out of Heaven and into Hell.
Amen.
Umm yes there are TONS of pedophiles who are not homosexuals. In fact, there are tons of straight priest pedophiles. Please try to keep the homophobic and biased remarks to a minimum.
No YFC we will shine light on the truth no matter how much it bothers you
Canisius, I am STILL praying for you. Even today. Even though you remain a bother. Even though you pretend to think you know the truth. My prayer for you is stronger than my anger towards you. I can claim that today. I can’t promise that tomorrow.
YFC could care less what you think of me, and my hate will overcome your prayers. I know the Truth. you don’t since a practicing sodomite is incapable of know Truth…
Well, Cansius, at least you admit your hatred. That’s more than I can say for your fellow commentators on CCD. But a little prayer from a sodomite couldn’t hurt, could it?
Thanks for your admission, YFC. Defining yourself as a Sodomite is a step forward for you on CCD. That said, the ‘others’ you believe hate you, do not hate you. They love you. That is why they advocate against the Sodomy that is so dangerous to your soul. And that is why they – just like you with regard to Canisius – offer prayers and dialogue. (This is also done because your agenda can lead others struggling against SSA astray.)
The one thing I do hate is the duplicitous skirting around issues that comes through in many of your posts. So thank you for your forthrightness. It’s appreciated. And as for your prayers, no, they couldn’t hurt at all!
There is a booklet, which was published by TAN which pictured a large ocean liner, named Novus Ordo, sinking after it hit an ice berg (probably named Vatican II). This cover says a lot without any words. When I was in grammar school, the nuns had us pray for the success of the Council. Well, from what is quite obvious, there was no success, just destruction. Travel into almost any town in the United States or Canada, and witness that the pews are getting empty, children are not being baptized, young people are not getting married, seminaries are empty, convents are closed, ignorance of God and the faith are widespread, and the numbers of Catholics are falling. Without even going inside a church, one can see former Catholic buildings such as convents, schools, hospitals, rectories and churches which are now no longer used by the Church (and no other buildings have replaced them). Former Mother Houses of nuns are the embassy of the Red Chinese government,and the head of the Canadian Medical Association in Ottawa. Across the river in Hull, the former cathedral was made into a strip club, but closed after some people complained. A huge Jesuit seminary in Hyde Park New York is now the Culinary School of America. None of this is made up. As Sergeant Friday said, “Just the facts”, and these are the straight facts. Because the Catholic Church made friends with the world, the world injected its cancer into Her. As Malachi Martin said, the Catholic Church is dying (just as Christ died), and She will be entombed (the underground Church). We might not want to admit is, but these are the facts as well as the numbers. The Catholic Church is vanishing, and the speed is increasing every minute. I believe the Third Secret of Fatima warned the Holy Father NOT to have a council, but Pope John XXIII went ahead and evoked the Council after calling his critics ‘doomsayers’. After the Council, instead of a new springtime, there has only been a drought, and devastation is everywhere.
The pews are not empty at any church I attend in my home diocese or those where I travel. Even daily Mass is well attended. It has increased dramatically in the last 10 years or so. in 2011 infant baptisms in the US numbered over 830,000 and adult baptisms totaled over 43,000. (Adults brought into full communion with the church numbered almost 73,000.) We have almost 3700 seminarians in the US: worldwide the number in 118,000. Both are increasing. In the US it is up 17%. Worldwide 86%. There is no question that the marriage rate is declining. Cohabitation, postponed marriages, mixed marriages, civil ceremonies have taken their toll. Ignorance is profound. That is why we had the Year of Faith last year. Of course the Church cannot die. It is the Mystical Body of Christ. He is Risen. The Popes and Bishops have worked hard to preserve the Faith. Many refuse to hear them. Please pray for all those who stop up their ears. Many people’s faith is being reinvigorated. But we have many challenges. However, what was true in the beginning of the Church is true now. Just serve the Lord and spread the Gospel and God will do the rest. It has always been a call to service. Why do people now act like the whole world should already be catechized? What would your job be, then? To serve the poor and do works of mercy. Quit complaining because there is work to do. Be grateful to the Lord for allowing you to cooperate with His plan of Salvation. Lord, we are not worthy.
Oh please, stop, stop! I’ll need wading boots if you continue that dialogue. There are some of us out here who know better!
Need we ask what you our agenda is in diverting the facts of this serious matter?
Rust never sleeps!
Quit complaining because there is work to do? You have got to be living in a bubble, Anonymous, or perhaps you’ve never managed/built anything before.
For while it is true that our enemies can and do sneak in to sabotage our work, the point being made here is that it was our own Church leaders that did the dirty work of destroying/undermining the efforts of the Church to spread the Gospel. MANY still DO. That said, one NEEDS to root cause problems so as not to repeat them, Anonymous, not avoid work. That comment was just plain naive.
Wake up! Really take a look at what precisely you are spreading and who is your leader. God who doesn’t change? Or much of the leadership that is convinced by the world that Holy Mother Church needs a perpetual face lift to be loved for the good Mother that she is.
That said, you might try asking Fr. Karl a QUESTION about why he feels the way he does. Perhaps he has a vastly different experience than you do. And if you’re into just happily digging in, then follow Pope Francis and opt for the position of humility when approaching those who have been so OBVIOUSLY wounded, not by the Church, but by Her unfaithful guardians.
All of what Fr. Karl has stated about the former religious buildings in Ottawa, Onatario, Canada are true!
The old Baltimore Catechism was much better than the putrid catechism of today in Canada.
Wise words, Father Karl! Bless you!
This is what happens with lousy catechesis, and teaching that it does not matter which religion you belong to because almost everyone will get to Heaven as long as they repent.
So it only makes sense that people will attend a church that is the easiest for them to comply with.
Also most US Bishops do not handle public Scandal, public Sacrilege, Heresy, and Schism. When they allow public figures to receive Holy Communion while clearly in the state of Mortal Sin – then they are making the statement that the Body and Blood of Jesus is not really in the Eucharist. The real Presence in the Eucharist is the main difference between the Catholic Church and other Christian Churches.
Most US Bishops and their Priests rarely teach about Mortal Sin and Hell.
Most US Cardinals/Bishops (and consequently their Priests) still do not encourage at home reading of a Catholic Bible, and the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” as taught by our last 3 Popes.
Most Catholics do not know their Faith in entirety.
When Church leadership does not adhere to Church Doctrine in entirety, avoids teaching difficult truths, gets involved in the role of the Laity (politics), encourages financially draining bureaucracies such as the USCCB and State Bishop Conferences, then they have no principles.
They have nothing to offer – as seen by the majority of the younger people.
Did I miss it in the article as a cause of departure: the difficulties of living up to the sexual morality teachings?
I would also suggest that we need to work on Atonement theory and to create clear distinctions between Sacred Tradition and accumulated human traditions.
The American Bishops, absorbed in Leftist secular policies and government funds, have abandoned the Faith and the Faithful.
Clergy like Cardinal Mahony preferred to lead Marxist May Day parades than witness to life at any Los Angeles abortion mill. He lead the destruction of Catholicism by coddling child abusers and wrapping his archdioccesan identity around dissenters at his annual education congress.
We see no sacrifice, no personal conviction, no soulful agony from the bishops—unless they are begging funds for development or they are praising Democrats.
did you know that some bishops even went so far as attending the inaugeration of Obama, the abortion extremist president?
No wonder young people shun the clergy and the Faith they pretend to represent!
Ask two questions of those who have left the Church – regardless of age:
1. Have you read the New Testament (from beginning to end) at home?
2. Have you read the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” from cover to cover at home?
The answer to both will be “NO” by the vast majority.
That would also be the vast majority of people who are currently practicing Catholics. The vast majority have never seen the Catechism. Most don’t know it exist any more.
Well Bob One this negligence stems from a cowardly clergy more concerned with transforming the Gospel the world, rather than the world to the Gospel.
You are right Bob One – and whose job is it to tell Catholics the CCC exists ?????
We all got that right – the Diocese Cardinals/Bishops and their Priests.
These guys ignore Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict and Pope Francis. Because they are too busy being political activists and getting grants from the government for their pet projects rather than teaching the Faith.
– For exact quotes about the Catechism from the Popes go to – “What Catholics REALLY Believe SOURCE”.
https://whatcatholicsreallybelieve.com/
Catholics do not know their Faith, and therefore have no problem leaving their Faith.
In a small informal poll of a dozen catholics and here are the results.
1. Have you read the New Testament (from beginning to end) at home?
11 no 1 yes.
2. Have you read the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” from cover to cover at home?
11 no 1 yes.
small sample but I don’t think people left the church because of this. I know I left for other reasons. The one person who answered yes is a former nun and still very much involved in the church
brian, please come back.
Never going back. Happy in church where a woman is the minister. Also I was an alterboy in the 60’s I was never raped by a priest but that was not because the church had my back. Quite the opposite. Their policies put me in the catagory of acceptable collateral damage to protect their image. There is a long list of reasons people have left the church . I think abuse and coverup rank higher than Vatican ii.
Door is always open. God bless you.
thank you for telling your story, brian g.
I know several who have left because of the treatment of women and gay people in the Church. I’ve met exactly one person who left the Church because Vatican II went too far. However, I know many who left because it didn’t go far enough.
Young people think Jesus is a myth, a fantasy. They do not know Him or his real message of salvation or why they need salvation. There absolutely no concept of sin or that they may not go to heaven because of sin. The ones that do have some belief in Him think all that is needed is to be loving and tolerant of others. They have no true knowledge or concept of Christianity. The only young people I know today with a true knowledge and love of Christ are those who study the Bible in depth. I think it is very simple. The Church needs to change the way they teach the young because what they are doing now is obviously not working.
Let’s get our heads out of the sand: The cause is simple and obvious: Vatican II and the “new” religion that has driven many away. We want to come back, but to back to what? It just keeps getting worse.
Have you read the New Testament?
Have you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
Multiple times: straight through and just digging in as needed and at random just for fun!
Vatican II changed the centuries-old Mass into the Novus Ordo. We must return to the traditional Latin Mass, no more Novus Ordo: it’s a travesty. The Church must defrock priests, bishops and archbishops who protect pedophiles. Politicians and other famous people who support abortion and same-sex “marriage” must be publically excommunicated. Clean out the “lavender” seminaries, and train moral men to be faithful priests. Ecumenism promotes the false idea that all religions are good and equal: not true Do not spend any energy, time or money on it. Return to the pre-Vatican II catechesis and people will have something true and solid to believe in.
Sarah
Perfect comment and right on point. Many of us have been saying this for years but nothing happens in fact everything gets worse. I had high hopes for the new Pope but after a few of his comments I don’t know but time will tell..
Sarah is 100% correct!
It is time to roll the clock back to the times when Men were Men and not some playing the part of Woman in Marriage, and wice versa for Woman.
There was nothing wrong with the Old Latin Mass TRANSLATED into the local language for better understanding by the laity.
The Pope has his Swiss Guards…who to the Cardinals and Bishops not use the Kninghts of Columbus to assist in enforcing the Rules of the Church on Peodophilia? It is time to clean house…Do it Now…WHY WAIT FOR SPRING?
Vatican II was a ray of hope, the beginning of a new Evangelism. But it failed due to the failure of bishops worldwide to focus necessary attention on the wrong-doing of priests. For decades, even centuries, priests have been molesting children knowing that their bishop would protect them; they always have! Children who complained to parents were punished for telling lies against priests. Parents who complained to bishops told them the problem would be taken care of. They were told that it was the sin of the father. There was no mention that rape of children is a crime and must be reported to Police. Insurance companies aided and abetted and paid to silence parents, lawyers advised bishops to move priests to different parishes, mostly in small churches in the country or rural areas. They felt protected until Truth hit the fan! The public cried outrage, money stopped coming in. Settlements cost billions. Assets were sold off, bankruptcy followed. Complicit bishops suddenly retired; or were removed to Rome for protection against prosecution. The church was crumbling before our very eyes. The lies of priests and bishops became weak denials. People didn’t simply leavthe church, we ran from the church. Our faith was strengthened outside of the church. Spirituality became the new norm. The church failed to rebuild itself.
The people never returned. Forgiveness became the new issue. Can we forgive the child rapist priest hiding behind the white collar? Yes, we can; yes, we must forgive them, each and all, bishop and priest while they are in jail for the crimes of child rape. Then we focus on the children who were hurt. We are obliged to aid and protect them as they seek justice and the rebuilding of trust. This for however long it takes!
R. O.
Vigilanty Law may soon happen is the Cardinals and Bishops do not clean the Pedophiles from the Church?
I am all for it
Rich, it took me a little while to understand what you were getting at with your comment. I think I get it now, but it seems you didn’t bring home the point you started. You started with, “Vatican II was a ray of hope, the beginning of a new Evangelism. But it failed due to the failure of bishops worldwide to focus necessary attention on the wrong-doing of priests. For decades, even centuries, priests have been molesting children knowing that their bishop would protect them; they always have!” But then you didn’t seem to follow through with this, or maybe you did and I got lost?
It seems to me you are right that VII was a ray of hope, and you are right that the bishops failed to focus attention on the wrong-doing of priests that had been occurring for centuries. But you never get to say what changed in the equation?
So I’m not sure what the answer is, but it seems to me it is the rise of the internet that allowed victims to come forward and find each other. In the past, victims were shielded by peopel around them from coming forward, even anomyously. The internet, and even moreso with Internet 2.0 (Facebook et al) allowed a new level of honesty about what had been going on for a very very long time.
For what it is worth, I think Francis is the first pope who gets this: Rome cannot control the converation anymore, and needs to head the voices in the pews, or else it will go under and fast.
YFC your true colors show through what you want is a democratic Church much like those empty mainline protestant sects… The Church will never go under it just may be alot smaller , but holier…..Once the gay filth from the Church we can move forward..
The Pope of Rome has no authority when he speaks apart from the entire Church. That’s just the way it si. That’s just the way it has always been understood.
Vatican II was a ray of hope,…HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
Yes. If V2 may have been “a ray” but instead of a ray of hope, more like a death-ray.
I can speak from very personal experience about what happened to my Baby Boom siblings who left the Church: it’s the teachings, folks. My family of origin produced six babies including me and all but me have left the Church, and I may not be long for the Church because my annulment was denied.
The Church told my parents in 1950 that they would be sent to Hell if they used birth control, even though my mother’s doctors bluntly warned her that a large family would increase her pain and suffering due to chronic preexisting health problems, damage their marriage, harm their children, increase domestic stress, and drive them into early graves. All of these medical prophecies came true, with one addition the doctors overlooked: the chaos at home drove all of their children out of the Catholic Church, upset and deeply hurt by a Church that was insensitive and downright bullying in their rigid enforcement of a birth control teaching that most good Catholics ignore. Where did they all go. “Ex Catholics”, better known as “none of the above” when asked to name a faith denomination. They are fed up and disgusted with the Church, and is has absolutely nothing to do with Vatican II.
At the end of the day, the post-Vatican II era has removed the taboo of sin. That is not enforcement, but rathaer is tantamount to an absence of enforcement. If people can remain in the Church officially without seeming consequence for actions identified by the Catechism as sinful, how is it reasonable to say that “enforcement” drove them out, when they are not driven out at all, even by your own description, and simply ignore the teaching and remain being considered “good” Catholics? Aren’t these people effectively saying that the teachings mean nothing? Aren’t the people who leave all the more so effectively saying that the teachings mean nothing? Where did this thinking come from? It came in the wake of VII, which, at the end of the day, stopped the widespread teaching of the doctrine of sin. People feel free to ignore the Catechism when the Church leaves it in printed books but hardly proclaims it beyond that. That is the effect of VII – by silence, the Church starting sending the message that sin is not a concern. As a result, “good” Catholics ignore doctines and officially remain and others leave because the environment is no different from a protestant context anyway. These phenomena are not because of “enforcement,” but rather because of the absence of “enforcement” which has been the legacy of VII thus far.
I’d have to say much of what you noted above, Good Cause, happened to my family, too. That said, despite my mother’s nervous condition, failing health and stress, there was a HUGE amount, (there were 8 kids – 7 girls, 1 boy, 1100 sqft home, and 1 bathroom) I’m glad my parents stuck with it or else I would not be here. I was the youngest. (My mom was bedridden while carrying me.)
That said, Vatican II isn’t precisely the problem in and of itself, but rather the loosening and ambiguous nature that took form within it, giving the faithful and priests an attitude of ‘do what works,’ but what that is, I’m too afraid to say. It was almost as if the Church stepped back from Her teachings as if afraid and doubting, instead of doubling down but with a firm purpose of amendment in being charitable when administering said truths.
Vatican II is just the most obvious demarcation point of noting the shift and/or seeming backpedal. But this was also the first time in Church history that She was surrounded by a culture that * could * turn their back on the acceptance of suffrage/sacrifice thanks in large part to the cultural advances in science and technology. That which could lift the cross from the shoulders of mankind and is advertised everywhere you turn as doing just that. (I like to call it the Burger King Symdrome – that is ‘Have it your way.’ This is not to negate the suffrage of your family – NOT AT ALL!)
So your parents/family being ‘fed up’ with the Church is very familiar as sacrifice is darned hard anyway. It’s even harder when everybody-and-his brother seems to be livin’ large and giving up nothing. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t the right thing to do. And that’s the point despite whether some folks get fed up or not.
That said, standing strong in the Faith needs to be maintained, but based in LOVE of Christ, not fear of Hell. Not that one should forget Hell. Knowing it exists is a sign of God’s love as in He wants to let us know the danger that waits ’round the bend of giving up. Much like a spanking (not a beating) to an hornery kid, Hell is a darned good motivation if one doesn’t love or understand God quite yet.
A priest once said to a friend of mine regarding a difficult spouse from whom she could not get an annulment, “Have you ever thought what will happen to the soul of your spouse if you should be given leave to desert him?”
Ann Malley, what a beautiful post! I am sure glad your parents stuck with it too!
Thanks, Tracy. That said, there was a time when I was growing up that I would berate my own parents for ‘having’ me and ‘subjecting’ me to what I deigned was intolerable suffrage. What a ninny-head I was, okay, serpent’s tooth. I still am in many ways, but at least God has seen fit to give me some small mite of wisdom – at least with regard to being born :)
I wish everyone could visit the Philippines and/or a forward operating base in Afghanistan to get a real taste of hardship. Perspective is everything.
God bless you!
Ann M.
Funny you should say that. I am half-Filipino (though, I appear to be completely Caucasian).
The Philippines are not nearly as bad as you think. Globalization has been very good to the Philippines. It is now the no. 1 foreign call-center nation. Much of the development IS centered around Manila. The more remote provinces and islands (there are 7,000), are much less developed. Yet, 1/4 of the population lives in and around Manila.
Yet, the poverty there is still very real. I went into a very poor house with a dirt floor in the town where my father grew up and was told that the inhabitants of that shack were my second cousins (the older member was my father’s 1st cousin).
The Philippines are a country where abortion is illegal, and divorce is only available if you first get an annulment from the Church (I don’t know what non-Catholics do). Family sizes are much larger, yet Philippine society is hardly like pre-Vatican II culture.
Though controversial, birth control is used and pre-marital sex, later marriage, and contraceptives exist in that society. Filipino’s have an odd “double think” when it comes to Catholic faith. They revere God, and many go to Church, yet successful men often cheat on their wives and think it’s their privilege to do so if they are meeting their financial obligations to their family.
Homosexuality and transsexuality exist and have gained increasing acceptance. In the Philippines, family loyalty will come before Church in many ways—so that a gay or transsexual family member will be accepted because they are family.
The increasing ability of people to talk brought about by mass communications prevents the Church, or the government, from controlling the message by declaring subjects socially taboo like they could in the past. This is a reality that people of faith are going to have to deal with. Bringing back Vatican II won’t make us revert to pre-vatican II social morals.
Thank you for your post, JonJ. It is often helpful to have a closer view into other cultures.
That said, I was expressing the idea of harsh living conditions and sacrifice when referencing the Philippines in my post. That is, it is possible amid great suffrage, to cleave to what you believe. Hence my inclusion of a forward operating base in Afghanistan – not a Catholic culture per se, but one of oftentimes abject SUFFRAGE – Absolutely!
That said, those who ‘have’ in Afghanistan are pretty well off/comfortable, too. And have television, internet, servants, food aplenty, etc, etc, etc. And yet those who are grievously poor do what is required in accordance with their beliefs and the law.
Your conveying the living conditions of your cousins gave me an excellent visual to go with that which I have heard. Thank you. And your admission that family size is larger. One would conclude thereby that even though the struggle is harder with regard to survival, the notion of doing God’s will holds out over that of lessening the cross, even if it doesn’t hold out completely. Translation: it is difficult to do God’s will and it is, unlike some believe, a choice. It ALWAYS has been.
The reality of cheating men/women, birth control, pre-marital sex and homosexuality is nothing new, not even in Catholic Culture as all of the above are maladies, in addition to countless more, common to the human species. That’s why such behaviors are referenced in the Bible, JonJ.
Sure, but the cultural attitudes I’m talking about go deeper than just those points. They watch a lot of mainstream US shows and many attitudes are far different than you would have found in pre-Vatican II culture. Of course, many of those attitudes are rooted in social structural changes outside the scope of religion.
As for cheating existing, certainly they had it in Biblical times, but Hispanic cultures (and the Philippines were heavily influenced by their time as a Spanish colony) often show this sense of entitlement: that is OK for a successful man to have women on the side. That’s very different from a general sense of wrongness, but people do it anyway.
You do see the shanty towns in urban Manila, but they do a pretty good job of hiding them from street view while travelling the roads. Yet, if you look in the right places, you’ll see the tightly packed shacks of the poor.
I remember when one of my cousins who owns his own construction company took me out on the town. We ended up going to see “Taxi Dancers”, which is pretty much a strip club except the girls don’t take their tops off. Uncertain of what was going on, I made clear to my cousin that I didn’t want to have sex (though I am pretty sure that desire would have been accommodated had I expressed it). But I did end up talking to one of these girls.
She was actually quite sharp, spoke fluent English to the point where she could make jokes in the language, and very pretty. What’s sad is, she probably would have married me on the spot if I had asked—because she was in that place trying to support a poor family (I believed this story because why would someone with looks, intelligence, and charm be doing there if she wasn’t financially desperate?)
The thing is, I could see why she’d do it too. She had to know there was some money in my family, but what she didn’t know is the one of my cousins was a former cabinet member, another cousin runs 14 casinos for the Philippine government, and another distant relative of mine was the current sec. of health. Become part of my family, and her whole family would get hooked up with jobs—likely low level jobs that they could do, but still.
Interesting but exceedingly familiar scenario that you outline, JonJ. My ex-pat in laws have many tales from Singapore, Malaysia, and China. Ireland and Italy, too. I have Catholic friends from South Korea – those that live there or grew up there. I have Taiwanese friends, too. I’ve been exposed to Afghani culture and mores as well. I also have similar stories – that is the women who would marry for the support of her family – from Eastern Europe. One married into my family.
The idea of selling(or being sold) oneself be it in a brothel, a dance club, or in ‘marriage’ is nothing new. Neither is the entitlement mentality of believing one has risen to the level of legitimately having a mistress or second, third, or fourth wife.
The point I was making is that we here in the United States so often advocate that it is too hard/difficult to maintain the sexual standards put forth by the Catholic Church. We who do not have the same degree of suffrage as those in other parts of the world. Particularly third world countries. And yet there are those in third world nations who *DO* manage to follow Church teachings because they actually *BELIEVE* them.
That is why we have posters here saying how it has always been EASY to be Catholic when even now our FELLOW CATHOLICS are suffering martyrdom all over the world. It is much the same as Americans who purport there is a war on women here in the States. What a crock.
That is why when you make statements like “…This is a reality that people of faith are going to have to deal with. Bringing back Vatican II won’t make us revert to pre-vatican II social morals,” I have to point out that this supposed ‘new reality’ is nothing new at all. And that the teaching of Truth was and always will be the way that Catholics are called to handle it.
Times change – people don’t.
Good Cause and Anne, there is another side to that story about artificial contraception. I would have been dead well over twenty years ago if I had ever taken the Pill on a regular basis as I have had cancer several times that the estrogen in the Pill would have caused to grow faster, so have other women. Many, I am sure, have saved their lives just in time by going off the Pill entirely after finding out they had cancer. Nevertheless, quite often the tumors are still much larger than they would have been. Mine were always very small. Some were not so lucky and did not survive because their tumors were too large when found. Perhaps, Good Cause, it was by the grace of God that your mother did not take it. She might have died earlier. The Natural Family Planning is much better and far more accurate now if the couple is willing to use it.
It was about twenty-three years ago when I first got cancer to be more exact. Twenty-three more years of life God gave to me because I listened to that faithful priest who told me not to take the Pill. May his soul, through the mercy of God rest in peace.
Birth control pills caused many of my siblings to go off the emotional deep end. That is putting them at severe risk of suicide or getting killed due to risky behaviors. Why? The chemicals. The ‘boyfriend’ of one chucked the pills even at the risk of pregnancy because he believed the emotional side effects to be worse than street drugs.
So any notion that going on the pill would have resolved the situation was a no go. Hindsight is always 20/20 – at least when we are discussing how life should have been or could have been better for us.
good cause, so why didn’t your parents do the right thing – abstain from sex during furtile times of the month ? ? ?
It is not necessary to have sex every day, even animals don’t do that.
Don’t blame the Church for your parents actions or inactions.
CCC: ” 2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.
These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom.
In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil.
Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.”
good cause, you really need to read the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” rather than blaming the Doctrine of the Faith on other people’s ignorance or sinfulness.
Gee, Dave, I never asked my parents about their sex lives. I hope mine don’t ask me. How ignorant or sinful were your parents?
Dave: The CCC says birth regulation, that is birth control, by periodic continence is practicing responsible parenthood and thereby offends traditionalist parents who entrust their family size to God’s planning.
Warren
good cause, it sounds to me that you are looking to this world for your happiness and fulfillment. This would explain to me why you seem to see the Church and Her teachings as failing you and your family. Jesus IS the way, the truth, and the light!
Jesus said the following Holy Words:
“My yoke is easy and my burden light”.
“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.”
“He who wishes to save his life will loose it but he who looses his life for my sake will find it.”
“Pick up your cross and follow me”.
“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.”
Lord, Jesus, grant eternal rest to “good cause’s” parents and let the perpetual light shine upon them, may they rest in peace. May they and all the souls of the faithful departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace. Amen.
Did you ever think that the Church will not give you an annulment is because in the eyes of the Church your marriage WAS valid?
RR, your question is valid, that is for those of us who have not embraced the Heresy of Relativism!!!!
I have these questions for “good cause”. If you had the power to go back in time and re-write history. Would you encourage your parents to contracept your life from coming into existence? How many of your siblings, and which ones, would you have your parents contracept from coming into being?
Yes, God gave Adam and Eve the gift of “free will” to choose to eat or not to eat from the Tree of Life. But just as their choice came with consequences back then, so too does it come with consequences today! Have you ever even considered that your marriage may have “died” BECAUSE of bringing contraception or sterilization into the relationship, rather than in spite of it?
Tracy: Great points and question! I agree!
good cause, why leave the Church because your marriage was considered valid during the annulment process?
Please read your “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition”.
Catholics can receive all the Sacraments if they are civilly divorced, but they cannot remarry (living in adultery).
Those who choose to remarry should attend Mass even if they can not receive the Sacraments. However if/when they put God’s will above their own will and promise to live in continence then they can receive the Sacraments.
MAC, great post except good cause has posted in the past her angst that the Church imposes the burden of hell onto those who would remarry without an annulment. She struggles with the notion that the Church, in this situation, is forcing one to choose between either being “happy” or going to hell. I doubt, therefore, that she places much value in living out the sacrifice of living in continence in order to receive the highly valued gift of the Holy Eucharist. Her version of “happiness” seems to be more important to her than that!
I am praying for you “good cause” that you may one day find your fulfillment in Jesus Christ. He is the only one who can give you true peace and joy!
Luke 18:8 I say to you, that he will quickly revenge them. But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth? Douay-Rheims
Isn’t Sacred Scripture saying the same? Our Legion of Mary spiritual director always reminded us that the Church was going through the Passion. Who could ever leave the Catholic Church if they truly understood John 6: [54] Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.” Jesus will gather and unite all of his faithful sheep. Those who truly care about Truth will always work to unite all souls that may come into contact with. Many who deliberately work to destroy the fullness of Revealed Truths of the Catholic Church will be held accountable. You Will Know Them By Their Fruits
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. [24] Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, [25] And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock. [26] And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, [27] And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof. [28] And it came to pass when Jesus had fully ended these words, the people were in admiration at his doctrine. [29] For he was teaching them as one having power, and not as the scribes and Pharisees. Douay Rheims Catholic Bible
Catherine, so what are you saying? Your comment makes very little sense & appears to have nothing to do with the subject…..
James,
Don’t be hard on yourself. I have tremendous compassion for the developmentally disabled and many others will also support you in your struggles in reading comprehension. Hang in there my friend. Many people told me that my own daughter would never ride a bike but with perseverance and love guess what? One day she rode that bicycle.
Catherine, I still ask the question of what you are talking about and your comment regarding mine shows you have limited ability to answer questions. My Catholic friend, I think you had better bring yourself down to earth and join us in speaking/reading understandable English. The CCD is a ‘FORUM’ for us to learn the good and the bad of our Church and not to read long narratives that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.
James, You also have been given the free will choice to ignore or choose to pretend that you are not reading long narratives.
For you will certainly carry out God’s purpose, however you act, but it makes a difference to you whether you serve like Judas or like John.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain
James, sorry you were treated so badly. Just pray for the poor old woman.
Anonymous, your insertion to just pray for ‘the poor old woman’ does little to alleviate the tensions between Catherine and James. I thought you were all about spreading Christian charity. Not marginalizing others…. even women who you deign to be ‘old.’
John, Catherine is advocating simply saying good riddence to those who find the teachings on contraception too hard. Of course, the ban on artificial contraception can be a hard teaching – including for all the reasons Good Cause recounts from her own experience – but simply acknowledging that is of limited value.
One wonders how the disciples reacted to those who departed from Jesus when he described the eucherist. No doubt many simply said “good riddence”, some were surely motiviated by the new opportunity it provided to get closer to Jesus, or happy at the thought that their group was becoming more exclusive.
No doubt, others chased after the departers and sought to respond to their questions or allay their fears. Surely some were successfully returned to the flock.
Brian writes, “No doubt, others chased after the departers and sought to respond to their questions or allay their fears. Surely some were successfully returned to the flock.”
Are you trying to say that Our Lord was less charitable than the Apostles, Brian? That He allowed HIS flock to scatter and then just left it up to unknown ‘others’ to give chase? I don’t think so.
That said, it is often the calm statement of Truth and the cleaving to it without compromise – albeit in charity – that speaks the loudest as it says, “I firmly believe what Christ said. It is Truth. Even if you leave. Even if you are my brother, sister, cousin, friend, whatever, I stand with Christ as He is Lord.”
God’s ways are not our ways, Brian. And chasing after intelligent human beings who have made a choice to go against what they know to be right often does more harm than good. It weakens our position to that of emotion and human expectation.
The truth is ‘WE’ don’t like to be left. Having people leave the Faith because they disagree with it often undermines our own Faith as misery loves company and sheep like to herd up together. We believe often, and falsely, that people leave because of something WE did….instead of giving them the liberty that Christ gives.
Being left hurts. But it hurts Christ more. Having those who are lukewarm, however, hurts the worst as they neither love nor hate, but are indifferent. So if Our Lord let people go their own way, so should we if they do not listen and or want Truth. It is not our call, Brian, despite it’s feeling bad.
“God’s ways are not our ways.” Beautifully said Ann Malley! Our Legion of Mary group was reminded of that on a very first visit to a Evangelical Christian woman who was ill and bedridden for several years. She was a Jewish woman who became a Christian and at this time she was living on Protestant church grounds. We had been asked to visit her by a Catholic doctor. One day we had extra time and so our Legion of Mary decided to stop by and see if it was a good time for a visit. This woman did not know that Catholics had been asked to speak with her. We even brought a statue of Our Lady of Fatima that day and we were truly astonished when this woman who had not been outside for years said to us on our very first visit, “This morning I woke up feeling so abandoned and lonely and I prayed and asked Jesus to please send some messengers today who are bearing the Truth.” Then what was truly amazing was when she said to all of us, “You Catholics have the True Communion, I would give anything to receive the True Communion.”
We asked her how she knew this and she said that The Holy Spirit had given her that knowledge. Ann, the Legion continued to visit this woman for some time and she eventually received Jesus when she became a Catholic right before she died in that little room on Protestant Church grounds with the entire Protestant community aware that one of their members was now entering the Catholic Church. This woman said that she knew she was suffering for the broken body of Christ, she said that Christ was the Head of the Church but the members of the body were not cooperating with Christ. This woman also informed us that she told her former Protestant pastor, “You know that you do not have the True Communion and you never did.” He responded, “I know, I feel the walls of division crumbling.”
Allowing one to leave without objection, or not, is a judgement call. I’m sure that Jesus expected those around him to use theirs, informed by their particular knowledge of each other.
And what of the judgment of those who choose to leave, of their own FREE WILL, Brian S, because they judge the teachings of Christ to be too hard, too unbelievable, too ridiculous, and just not worth the effort/sacrifice in light of other messages?
What you seem to purport is that ‘individuals’ know better than Christ what is in the heart, the soul, and personality of His creatures. That is, it appears, you put the individual Christian and his/her judgment above Christ in knowing what is good, necessary, or salvific. Christ who did not wrangle or berate, but rather spoke Truth and let the people follow or not.
God in His generosity gives us free will and yet those who speak as you do would snatch it away, rendering human beings little more than animals incapable of saying, ‘No.’
Yes, Catherine, God does answer prayers like that…those in earnest, from the heart and soul and bones of Truth seekers. And often in very miraculous, wholly unexpected ways.
What a gift to be part of God’s Providence!
Ann, I don’t think you are trying to understand me.
If I think Christ would have expected some of his followers to pursue others who found his teaching in John 6 hard, it does not mean I think “individuals know better than Christ”, or that I put the “individual Christian and his/her judgment above Christ”. How could you believe such a thing? Do you normally dismiss missionary work and ascribe such motives to its champions?
You often comment and counsel here and I am confident that you witness to the Faith in person whenever you find the opportunity to do so. If this is so, I am confident you do not hold of yourself what you now claim to hold of me.
Obviously people have free will, and many have exercised it to embrace unnatural conception with all its ills. That only makes it more important that when the opportunity to explain it arises – as James’ question provided – explainations should be given.
Instead, Catherine called him ‘retarded’, a response that was not helpful and utterly devoid of Charity.
Brian, missionary work is that which goes out and relates what Christ has told us – that is the deposit of the Faith, whole and entire. If folks walk away and do not want to believe/follow despite a thorough education – that is they make a wholly informed CHOICE – it is disrespectful of their liberty/intellect as human beings to continue to chase after them. (The liberty God Himself respect and the intellect He expects us to engage.) Just as it is disingenuous of sinners to say I am a good Catholic while knowingly advocating that which is mortally sinful so as to push an agenda.
Isn’t that the issue you have with folks seemingly hounding YFC? And yet you say, “Obviously people have free will, and many have exercised it to embrace unnatural conception with all its ills. That only makes it more important that when the opportunity to explain it arises – as James’ question provided – explainations should be given.”
So YES, I do believe that when opportunity/need arises that things should be addressed. But not ignored so as to keep someone ‘in the Church’. Or to exercise misguided compassion. Often it is the misguided compassion that causes the most harm as folks continue to sin, often publicly, and that leads to more confusion and sin. Leaven in the loaf works both ways. And all that is left is a tepid unbelieving blob that now relates Truth with whatever they are ‘ready’ to believe/accept.
You seem to believe that Catherine and others have a ‘let ’em burn,’ mentality when speaking about the fullness of the Truth. Nothing could be further from reality. Albeit some folks do get burned up with the cavalier sophisticates who propose to be oh-so good while including lovely–ooops–I mentioned my partner. But tsk tsk, we must be sensitive, respectful, and understanding.
Having raised kids, I understand that kind of bait. It’s prime material for the smarties. Just like playing innocent or shocked and appalled in the aftermath of that which they intentionally stirred up.
Thanks for writing back, Brian S. And God bless!
What is WRONG with this PICTURE ? ? ?
Many Bishops do not tell us to read the Bible and the CCC.
Instead they get involved in:
Getting amnesty for ILLEGAL immigrants contrary to the CCC which requires immigrants to obey the law;
Support for and partying with ‘Party of Death’ politicians;
Getting rid of guns so that the weaker can not defend themselves against unjust aggressors;
Pushing to stop the death penalty even though it is rare in the USA in accord with the CCC;
Giving Holy Communnion (Sacrilege) to those who are in the throws of public Scandal (mortal sin) such as politicans who support sodomy-marriage and killing of innocent babies for the convenience of others;
Telling us to support UNIONS (that financially back politicians who support abortion, and gay marriage).
(You can also find these on the USCCB web site.)
When the Pope wants to know what can be done about society today – he needs to start with his own Bishops and their Priests.
They don’t teach the Faith; instead they have become political activists.
They sounds like a bunch of LIBERALS to me.
Here in the diocese of Saginaw, Michigan, the Catholic Church is still under the demonic actions of Bishop Untener. He is the prelate who showed pornographic films in the seminary to his future priests. This individual told the people of his diocese to attend any church they wanted to, as it was good to see how the Protestants worshipped. He also demanded that priests have general absolution , so there were no individual confessions. He also, because he wanted gay, female and married priests, refused to ordain several young men because they were orthodox. So, why is the Church vanishing? Because of the Satanic leadership that has been ruling the Catholic Church for over fifty years.
God bless you for your suffrage, Jesuita. And for posting truth here on CCD to the benefit of all. Prayers for you and your diocese!
The Holy Spirit is the infallible guide of the Catholic Church.
Ah yes, but men often choose not to follow Him…. this often obfuscates the actual Faith, Anonymous, and leads many off course. And I’m not speaking of those on the bottom as the individuals of the flock really don’t have the power to influence whereas unfaithful shepherds do.
Oh please stop scapegoating.
Ann Malley, I know you won’t listen but…you chose not to follow Him. You chose to follow rebellious men who refused to follow Him.
Dear Anonymous (all of you). I pray God to bless you in your apostolate. That said, God was kind enough to send a good Samaritan to tend my wounds on the side of the road while others, that should have helped, my ‘brethren,’ passed by. With eyes wide open, mind you.
So now that the Samaritan has tended my wounds, set me up in the inn at his own expense, and continually returns to check my health and well-being at no cost to myself, you’ll please excuse me if I refuse to brand him a heretic/schemer/false prophet/anti-Christian slur. That said, it would be rather a lesson unlearned if the priest and Levite, upon their return journey, bid me call out this Samaritan as an agent of evil. Rather convenient, however, now that my ‘health’ is improved and I can, perhaps, be more useful.
What hypocrisy you promote. Especially when the medicine which has cured me is God’s Grace and Divine Providence. Who am I and who are YOU to judge and cast aspersions at His chosen vessels. That is the vessels who are actually transmitting grace, Anonymous. The grace that saves and brings souls to Christ as much as you despite that reality.
You say you follow Francis, but do you? Or are you judging, that is really judging, those who truly seek God with a contrite and earnest heart? Or are you all stuck on my supposed evil in desiring nothing more than that which has always been the Catholic Church?
You would rather have Catholics cleave to that which will in practice turn them into Protestants. But you would deride those who attend Traditional Chapels despite the Catholic fruit they produce. Talk about the letter of the law that kills.
anonymous writes, “You chose to follow rebellious men who refused to follow Him.” = A guilty conscience often projects it’s own duplicitous motives onto others and a guilty conscience is often it’s own accuser.
k-anonymous, Duplicitous physician heal thyself and please, not under the deceitful banner of pretending to be in supposed *full communion* while simultaneously defending, encouraging and promoting “openly gay” clergy .
Read the following post where k-anonymous praises and encourages a poster named Joe for following rebellious men. A man named Joe had written a post praising Father Zampelli’s *electric* Masses and for being “openly gay.” Although anonymous will continue to deny it, this is just one of the many posts showcasing that k-anonymous is following rebellious men. The agenda is the acceptance of “openly gay” clergy.
CCD Topic ‘Gay Pride Sunday – parishioners in tears’
Following Prop 8 decision Priest celebrates homosexuality
July 1, 2013
Anonymous says:
July 8, 2013 at 8:50 pm
“Joe, thanks for writing. There are sincere people who post here who don’t know that openly gay does not mean sexually active. There are others here who have targeted Father often. By their fruits you shall know them.”
.
I don’t deride those who attend Traditional chapels. I pray for them. Worshippers of every denomination, every sect, every other religion says the same thing. Here is where I found fruit. Here is where I found love. Here is where I feel spiritually alive. Here is where I find God. This is Oprah stuff. No one becomes a Protestant by staying Catholic. I don’t blame you for following your instincts. What else could you do? As Catholics, though, we follow Christ. And we stay in the Church that He founded. When did I judge or cast aspersions? I simply told you the truth. The Holy Spirit guides the Catholic Church. Yes, Vatican II is the will of God. Perhaps the humans in the Church failed you. That has happened often to a lot of people. Do you know why it happens? Because God wants us to depend totally on Him. I am not judging you or those who set up the independent chapels. But I have to tell you that you are mixed up on many things because you listen to those who left the Church. I understand now that you have an emotional attachment and feel some loyalty to it based on a sense of healing. A certain man was in prison (it was an excessive sentence). He was raised Christian but he did not practice any religion. In prison, he discovered Buddhism and it really helped him come to terms with the feelings of injustice and anger and made his time there endurable. Sent by God? Possibly. Is it where God wants him to stay forever? Another man who was involved with heavy drinking and drugs and casual sex gives credit to yoga and Vendanta for saving him from that lifestyle. He was a rarely practicing Episcopalian prior to that. That was 50 years ago. He has never reverted to Christianity. Do you see how I am not judging you but just thinking-“If I don’t tell you, maybe no one else ever will?”
Catherine, your assertion that I defend and promote gay clergy and that I am not in full communion with the Church is ridiculous. But it is only relevant because I am trying to warn someone of a spiritual danger and you are trying to undermine it. You assert that you have never been to an independent chapel. But every time someone tries to warn about the sin of schism, you pop up to try to make them look like an unfaithful Catholic. So what is your game? Why target people and try to make them look gay or “gay mafia” when they are trying to lead someone back to the True Faith? Why would you want Ann Malley to go to hell? What about her children? I hope this isn’t some kind of family feud.
Anonymous, look to the fruits of what you say, “No one becomes a Protestant by staying Catholic,” for in many instances you are dead wrong as pertains to FAITH. (If I don’t tell you, perhaps nobody else will.) If, however, ‘staying’ Catholic to you means following no matter what, even in the occasion of sin, that is your decision. (You likely enjoyed the abominations of Assisi I, II, and III.)
I do, however, love your trying to correlate traditional Catholic practice with Buddhism and Yoga. Why? Because thanks to the elevation of inculturation over the soundness of doctrine in the modern Church, elements of both are being inserted into Catholic Churches, Convents, and Schools across the country. Many New Age practices, too. (And for DECADES. Where have you been?) But I suppose if one does their Zen meditation or executes Reiki Master ‘healing’ with the Bishop’s approval – oh, yes, and with ‘Catholic’ symbols – it all becomes okay. Right? We need to be pastoral in only preaching that which ‘the people’ will accept.
Regarding Vatican II, chastisements are also the will of God, Anonymous. He gives us what we ask for from our hearts. And what we unfaithful, ‘faithful’ have asked for is liberty, equality, and fraternity or death. That is the cult of man and what he desires/wants, not what God has called us to. Right now, Our Lord seems to be practicing tough love, that is letting us make our messes so as to learn the error of it.
And if you believe my position to be based on emotional attachment, then you have, like the priest and Levite, totally missed the reality of the message. God help you. For what you fail to see is that in condemning the preaching of a consistent, Catholic message that is fully Catholic, you condemn all those who came before you who died for the actual Faith, not their, “I’m a Catholic,” identification card that, in the reality of practice, very often means less than nothing.
This is not to say that that is your position, Anonymous. But it is the reality out there, not the propaganda. That said, stop putting the Holy Ghost in a box and telling Him what He can and cannot do. If it is ‘men’ who have failed the Church, I trust that God can and does handle matters. Much like giving rise to Independent Catholic chapels that have suffered to maintain the integrity of Faith and practice amid the onslaught of filth let in by…. I dare not say.
Cult Watch
10 Points to look out for in your group members
1.Obsession about group or the leader putting it above most other considerations.
2.Member’s individual identity becomes increasingly fused with the group, the leader and/or God followed by the group.Cloning of the group members or leader’s personal behaviors.
3.Emotional overreaction when the group or leader is criticized. Seen as evil persecution.
4.Belief that the group is “THE WAY” and they have a mission
5.Increasing dependency upon the group or leader for problem solving, explanations, definitions and analysis, and corresponding decline in real, independent thought.
6.Excessive hyperactivity and work for the group or leader, at the expense of private or family interests. Drifting away from family and old friends
7.Preparedness to blindly follow the group or leader and defend actions or statements without seeking independent verification.
8.Demonization of former members or members of alternative groups.
9.Desire to be praised for doing the right thing and fear of public rebuke
10.Unhealthy wish to be seen with or aligned publicly with the leader(s) of the group
Cult Leaders
5 Points to look out for in your group leader
1.Authoritarian approach and intolerance of questioning or criticism. Lies about and insults opponents.
2.Leader shows anxiety about the world, speaking of threats or conspiracies against the group.
3.Leader regularly accuses dissatisfied members who leave of having something wrong with them, having personality disorders or being transgressor and deserters.
4.Ex-members have similar stories of abuse and ill-treatment by the leader(s).
5.The group/leader is always right and followers never feel they can be “good enough”.
Well, Anonymous, it’s official. That lovely post defining what makes a ‘cult’ has proved to me that you are deaf as well as blind when it comes to reality. Or the Faith outside blind obedience. God love you.
You may want to refer particularly to #2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 (in a big way), 8 (in a very, very BIG way) on the cult list with regard to your unwillingness to dialogue on point. And on the Cult leader list, you may want to review, #1, 3 (that is only Traditional Catholics. Does not apply to any other religion or cult), and most especially 5 as pertains to Traditional Catholic practice. Voodoo, Hoodoo, Santeria, Buddhist Zen meditations okay, and all manner of touch healing and funky hot rock massage acceptable. That said, the leader referred to is not Pope Francis, but some figment of yes-no amalgamation that only speaks the word of God despite free will.
God love ya!
It is with sorrow that I read your post. The difference of course is that Jesus Christ-the Son of God- is the head of the Catholic Church.
Anonymous, you for got to complete your sentence. “Jesus Christ-the Son of God- is the head of the Catholic Church” AND HIS VISIBLE HEAD ON EARTH IS THE POPE.
God love you yet again, Anonymous, it is with sorrow that I encounter your abject blindness. You no doubt would have applauded those who burned St. Joan of Arc for they were in full communion.
That said, YES, Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church that is why I attempt to follow Him and his True teachings in lieu of the perverted doctrine being forced down the throat of many a sheep in ‘full communion.’
My instruction to you about reviewing your cult watch list was to not slam the Church, but rather the mentality you engage when supposedly defending Her. For it seems you are defending the structure/frame, rather than what that structure/frame is intended to impart and protect – that being the fullness of Faith.
anonymous writes, ” The Holy Spirit is the infallible guide of the Catholic Church.”
Anyone who TRULY believed that TRUTH with all of the heart and mind and soul would joyfully proclaim this fact with a recognized name. Hidden agendas are often disguised anonymously.
“What has been hidden by snow is revealed in a thaw” Author unknown
“Never be afraid to trust an unknown future to a known God.” – Corrie Ten Boom
I believe God does not want me to invent a name based on what has happened when I did so. I feel I am doing the will of God by not filling in the fields above the comment box.
You have stated before (again, based on the ambiguity of your moniker) that Satan can mislead and deceive. Do not fool yourself, Anonymous, into believing that God desires you to remain anonymous while at the same time believing that it is God who calls you to post here to help people. Not when the people you are trying to help are specifically turned off to your message based on your anonymity.
You undermine your own efforts.
As some here have noted, the cause of the exodus of Catholics from the Church is the Second Vatican Council. The “spirit” of the Council, combined with the promulgation of the New Mass and the watered down doctrine has lead to a loss of faith throughout the world. You cannot do something as radical as changing the Holy Mass that had nourished the faithful for centuries and replace it with a masonic/protestant inspired Annabale Bugnini creation and not expect many to fall from the Faith. The Church once used to warn her children of the dangers of sin and the errors of the various religions. Now, all we must ‘dialogue’ with all religions and follow our conscience. Until the Church restores the TLM as the ordinary form of the Latin Rite, things will not get better. We owe God the utmost in worship. The liturgy must reflect His majesty.
If you leave the Church for any reason, it is because your faith is weak or non-existant. The only way someone will return is through prayer. especially the rosary.
And, yet, the churches I know about are packed every Sunday, with a thousand or several thousand at weekend masses. They are all NO parishes who are trying to live up to the spirit of V II. Most are very involved in actions to improve the lot of the poor, unemployed, under-fed, etc.. People are attracted to them because of their vibrant liturgies, their fantastic preaching and their programs that meet the temporal needs of their members. The parishes that are TLM seem to attract only a few score each week. I wonder why?
Bob One as someone who has admitted to hating the TLM and does not attend the TLM how would you even know how many are in attendance. I can assure Bob One the TLM hater, my parish is filled to the gills on Sunday
Canisius, please, don’t make rash statements. I have never said or indicated that I hate the TLM. I was raised with it, served at thousands of masses, still know most of the Latin prayers, etc.. What I have said is that I don’t want to attend the TLM. I am more comfortable with the NO. I have also stated in the past that if someone wants the TLM they should be able to get to one easily. At my former parish the pews were packed at all of the weekend masses. The church held about 750-800 people. The TLM mass usually had about 50 people who came from miles around. Why don’t we agree to have civil discussions and not call others hateful names. It isn’t Christian, is it?
First of all Bob One, don’t speak to me as if I were your wayward son, your not my father. You drip with contempt for the TLM along with any other tradition that Church has. I don’t want endless dialogue with a member of the generation that has brought the Church to its knees, I want to defeat and destroy that generation. Your kind has emasculated the Church with endless talk about love, while Catholics dies around the world, dying for the Faith. Your generation has spawned into the ranks of the cleric weaklings and homosexuals who are more concerned with not offending the culture rather than trying to convert. Or worse cruising the rectory for altar boys. Sorry Bob One, as far as I am concerned Church liberals like you are more dangerous the souls of Catholics then all the warnings against “intolerance” from your liberal priests combined
Violent purge of the Church is in order, and the complete and total suppression the Second Vatican council and everything that it spawned
Dear Editors:
Why do you permit your website be used to incite violence and absolute repudiation of an Ecumencal Council?
Canisius at 1-6-14 at 5:32 AM: ?Violent purge of the Church is in order, and the complete and total suppression the Second Vatican council and everything that it spawned”
YFC, I find your plea to the editors highly hypocritical. For if the editors silence the discussion on matters of your choosing, how can you expect them to endorse your promotion of SSM and homosexual sex advocacy while openly undermining biblical teachings and those of the Church?
It would seem you would elevate Vatican II above scripture itself. So which is it that we would be honoring then? The word of God or the continued reinterpretation of it. Sounds a lot like the Pharisees wanting to put their ‘word’ above the word of God.
The reason some Churches are packed is because over the years other nearby Churches have been closed.
Saving Souls must always come first. Eternity is longer than life on earth.
The low number of TLM v. NO Catholics (regardless of pew counts at particular locations) can confidently be at least partly explained, to wit – because few NO Catholics realize that post-VII Catholicism is a devise; because few NO Catholics have much awareness about what pre-VII Catholicism was or meant; because few NO Catholics are aware that pre-VII Catholicism even exists; because few NO Catholics have any concept whatsoever about what VII deprived them of; because few NO have ever participated in a TLM; because “progressive” clergy suppressed the TLM for decades, and still do so; because NO Catholicism makes it very easy to be Catholic; etc., etc.
retrospective: Exactly! They have no clue what has been taken form them!!
Being Catholic has always been easy. Love God, love yourself, love your neighbor. This is the greatest of the commandments. All the other rules and regulations were simply designed to help us be lovers of our fellow man/women. Christ evicted the law folks from the temple. He would evict the law folks from His church today. Where there is love, there is God.
“Being Catholic has always been easy”……ha LOL you really do not know what the hell talking about… How about “pick up your Cross and follow me” and dying to your sins. What about the countless martyrs of over the past 2000 years and blood they shed … that was easy???? You are so lost with garbage of Vatican 2
And those who don’t prefer the Cross, that is Love, will evict themselves for love of that which is false, Bob One. Why? Because it is easier and no cross at all.
As to Christ and the law, Christ fulfilled the law, Bob One. That is why what you say, “…all the other rules and regulations were simply designed to help us be lovers of our fellow man/women,” is so interesting.
I mean, if you admit that “…the ‘rules and regs’ were put into place to aid men in coming to love one another in practice,” why would ANYONE, especially Christ, evict those who promote methods that have, throughout the centuries, aided men in coming to love one another?
Unlike the Ali McGraw propaganda in ‘Love Story’ with Ryan O’Neil, love does mean having to say you’re sorry. It means having to do a great many things that seem uncomfortable or difficult, like carrying our cross for love of Christ if only to be an example to our fellow man.
God bless!
While the ‘other rules’ may be helpful, they are also commands. Following the rules, ie, the commandments, is they way to love. That is why Jesus recited the commandments in the gospels. Humans, left to themselves, redefine the word ‘love’ to suit their every whim. Love is now redefined by many to allow conduct which is sinful. The persons who do this ultimately must also deny the doctrine of hell. Those who deny these things deny Catholicism, and in fact belong to the Imagine religion of John Lennon. That’s their decision. But it’s also a delusion if they really think they can deny the doctrines of sin and hell and still be genuinely Catholic.
“And those who don’t prefer the Cross, that is Love, will evict themselves for love of that which is false, Bob One. Why? Because it is easier and no cross at all.”
Splendid post Ann Malley! It is the voice in the wilderness of St. John the Baptist who was beheaded for Truth, it is the action of Simon of Cyrene being asked to help Jesus carry the very heavy Cross vs. the modern day syndrome of Peter still fleeing Rome while thinking that fond loving meditations and thoughts are enough. They run from the Cross avoiding this reality while shrinking into the self-anesthetizing cocoon of sloughing off a particular Cross so uniquely fashioned for their own salvific purpose. Those sufferings are the crying onions that are often traded in exchange for another fleeting distraction when in reality these particular sufferings are their most valuable coins and pearls. St. Peter let go of the fear and the distractions and soon came to his senses and returned to embrace the Cross.
Written by Light and Truth
“The gospel of Christ is a coin with two sides: the cross and the crown. If we try to embrace one side, the glorious side, and reject the other, the suffering side, we falsify the gospel. The same Jesus who said, “Come to me, all you that are weary and are carrying heavy burdens, and I will give you rest” (Matthew 11:28) also said, “If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it” (Matthew 16:24-25). ”
“The road is narrow. He who wishes to travel it more easily must cast off all things and use the cross as his cane. In other words, he must be truly resolved to suffer willingly for the love of God in all things.”
– St. John of the Cross
I live in your Diocese Bob One, so cut the crap. “Vibrant liturgies, fantastic preaching and programs that meet the temporal needs of their members.” Hogwash. Most parishes are happy, clappy social clubs, promoting a clear Protestant ethos. You are right about one thing, they do focus on “temporal” needs; too bad the “spiritual” are ignored.
gravey, thanks for pointing out the truth. Excellent post!
Vibrant — full of vigor or energy.
Vigor — Strong feeling; enthusiasm or intensity. Effectiveness; force.
Fantastic — Bizarre; grotesque. Unreal; illusory.
Temporal — Of or limited by time. Worldly, secular.
I love the way people here cavalierly say that the problems with the Catholic Church, including declining attendance, is due to Vatican II. It’s like they have blinders on with regard to general trends in society favoring non=traditional faiths, towards more modern renderings of family and sexuality, and utter revulsion at the child sex abuse scandals. Not to mention the challenges presented by the rise of a global civilization, the Internet, and the primacy of the almighty Dollar (“entrepreneurialism”). All of these things are ALSO correlated with the era since VII, yet for some, VII is the only one that stands out. As for me and my family, Vatican II is the reason i JOINED the faith, not the reason I left it. If we think that the incessant materialism since the 80s has nothing to do with the decline of traditional religions, well then, I have a bridge to sell you. The religions that flourish are the ones that preach the “gospel” of prosperity.
VII “stands out” because it was the action that the Church took in the midst of the trends you recite which were not actions of the Church. The Church succumbed to the trends of the world via VII. There was nothing that said that the Church had to hold VII at that particular time in history. But the decision appears to have made to hold a council and catch the crest of the wave of worldly change instead of standing fast and resisiting. Your experience of joining the faith due to VII sounds as if you are possibly attracted to the idea of church mirroring society. In so many ways, Amchurch today justs looks like another protestant option. Many people wander in, and many wander out. I’m not sure I understand your reference to the abuse scandals, but it’s safe to say that the post VII climate of sexual permissiveness within and without the Church did nothing to stem the tide, to say the least. At the end of the day the world will always hate the Church, as Christ said that it hated Him. Accordingly, the world embraces a double standard of supporting sexual permissiveness generally while simultaneously condemning the Church for the sexual license among its clergy.
All the troubles of the Church are rooted in Vatican 2, the fact that it encouraged someone like you YFC to enter the Church says all that needs to be said… As a practicing sodomite and avowed Leftist you now feel welcome,,, Undo Vatican 2
YFC, Where do you come up with the idea that “entrepreneurialism” is somehow a problem?
Entrepreneur — One who organizes, operates, and esp. assumes the risk of a business venture.
I believe you said in a previous post that you are a Professor at at a University. So here is food for thought from the USC website about their history:
Judge Robert Maclay Widney in 1879 “secured a donation of 308 lots of land from three prominent members of the community – Ozro W. Childs, a Protestant horticulturist; John G. Downey, an Irish-Catholic pharmacist and businessman; and Isaias W. Hellman, a German-Jewish banker and philanthropist.”
I am sure you can look at the history of the majority, if not all, of the other numerous universities around our great nation and find that they too came into existence as a result of the generosity of entrepreneurs. I am sure that USC and other universities have graduated numerous student who themselves went on to become entrepreneurs, who have given back to their university.
YFC, you are disrespecting those who have given you an opportunity to pursue your own career. I find this beyond shameful.
Tracey, YFC is a leftist and a sodomite both of these facts should tell you what you need to know. Personally I believe he is an evil person, he spreads lies and dissent yet claims to be pious Catholic. I am honest if hate someone I admit it there is no pretense with me. YFC on the other hand is a prime example of the insidious evil threat that has entered the Church and one that the Bishops are ignoring or are complying with
I recall the words of Malachai Martin:
The famous writer and defender of the Faith, Fr. Malachi Martin, was a great admirer of Cardinal Bea, who worked closely with Pope John XXIII on the Council. Fr. Martin obtained an in-depth knowledge of the Council from both the Cardinal and the Pope. For Malachi, Pope John XXIII was the Pope who would, “make a desperate bid to achieve the apparently impossible: not to let his Church succumb to circumambient structuralism, but to launch a new spirit, to cleanse its baptismal water, so that it would be a beacon of light on a high hill at the crossroads of the nations. His effort was in the nature of a true gamble. For he juggled with two explosive elements: the Holy Spirit and chaos. However, the Holy Spirit goes where It wills, obeys no beck, is at no man’s call, and chaos reigns in disenchanted minds unused to freedom. Chaos veers giddily between two excesses; exultation and irresponsibility. He [Roncalli] decided to gamble everything for the sake of everything. All or nothing. He gambled. He lost. The Spirit did not will to blow his way. John had read the signs but jumped his signals. In his language, God had simply refused his solution. In ordinary parlance, he had made a huge historical miscalculation.”
How could an infallible pope do that? How could the Holy Spirit let him down? How can any of us have the foggiest about whether or not to listen to the magisterium? Isn’t my own conscience just as good? Maybe the Holy Spirit blows my way? How am I supposed to know?
Most of these comments are each in their own way “right on!” in one way or another.
The devil seems to be having his way – but be reassured the good Lord
has promised that He will not abandon His Church
Error does not produce righteousness and righteousness does not produce error.
“Error is the consequence of error!”
– from meditations on Vatican II.
I suceeded in bringing two people back to the Church they had abandoned 30-plus years earlier. Invited them to the Latin Mass which is now 1 hour away (and previously 1.5 hours away) although mercifully all the streets are paved here in our Archdiocese of Los Angeles. If you explain that with V2 confession is no longer a requirement for communion they will kneel at the rail and rejoin us. Of this achievement I am very proud of. Once they start receiving communion on their knees they are hooked again.
Of course the purpose of the Novus Ordo was to Protestantize the Holy Mass so that Protestants would join us. The Protestants never converted and our Orthodox brethren fully realize the Reformed Mass of Paul VI is a poison that they should stay away of to preserve their Faith, which is the same as ours.
Instead Catholics are leaving for Protestant Churches.
Why not if everyone can get to Heaven regardless of what Church they go to ?
Apparently the Catechism of the Catholic Church is over 20 years old.
If it were not for you Laity who blog in the Catholic Media, I would never have heard about it. If fact, I have only known about the CCC for last 3 years since I started reading these blogs.
When Catholics do not know their Faith, and make false assumptions – why should they stay in the Faith?
Let our Bishops answer this question.
Nadia, your comments here give tragic proof of the failings of our Church leaders to educate us in the basics of our faith! The Catechism has been around for far more than 20 years!
Jim Akin has a web site in which you can read and compare five different catechisms at the same time! One of them was written by St. Thomas Aquinas!
https://jimmyakin.com/library/catechismss
There are also other worthwhile catechisms written by others which Jim chose not to post.
Thanks for this. It’s fascinating. Compare the evolution over time of the Sixth Commandment (the source of where the Church has become most at odds with contemporary life, and the most definitive point of contention causing people to either leave or ignore the Church stance, or view with inordinate reverence as the definitive measure of faith).
Thomas Aquinas speaks about it in the most literal terms (adultery), then follows with an admittedly interpretive and speculative broadening based largely on St. Paul. As time progresses, you can see it evolve into more and more authoritative terms. There’s an element of culture becoming law, and a parallel development (elsewhere) of law being ever further beyond question. Infallibility, like executive authority, only increases over time.
It’s not even until 1992 that the Cathechism even makes explicit mention of homosexuality, speaks definitively on divorce, and even weighs in on gender expression… In typical fashion (just as with the Reformation, the Enlightenment, Modernist philosophy), decades late and with reactionary condemnation.
The CCC is as much a document of the JP2 era’s pendulum swing from the John XXIII era as it is the definitive last word on anything. It’s certainly the least poetic of the five, too.
And yet, Siollan, could it not also be said that it is the result of an ever-permissive culture that Church directives in the catechism had to become more specific in their wording. (Was there gender re-assignment surgery available at the time of Trent? Heart transplant? Or the push for homosexual marriage in the public square?)
The directive could be, “Drive carefully.” A speeder could say, “I was only driving fast, but I was very careful.” (A gotcha, one up for the speeder.) Okay, so the next directive would be, “Drive carefully. No speeding!” Another driver executes donuts in the middle of a busy intersection. His defense, “I was being careful and I wasn’t speeding.” And so it goes. Petulant, defiant, purposeful breaking of the spirit of the law.
The reason why the 1992 Catechism explicitly mentions homosexuality, divorce, and even ‘gender expression’ is because society, that is Catholic society, is increasingly lured by a non-Catholic spirit to break down any restriction. Church law, natural law, and even that of common sense reasoning as people continue to seek the loophole of, “Define careful. Define marriage. What does ‘is’ really mean?”
I would say that our ancestors, despite what many believe, had a better grasp on common sense. While we modern folks tend to look at everything like a seasoned lawyer, looking every which way to defend our client, that is our passions, to give them free vent. But always within the construct of the law.
That said, I miss poetry, fine clothes too. Yes, comfort is great and all, but oh the beauty of dressing up for something! Hope you enjoyed whatever break had you away from CCD, Siollan :)
This is from the Roman Catechism which is from 1500s. You can see Pope St. Pius V uses the 1st century Biblical writer as a source:
Under the section on the 6th Commandment:
Other Sins Against Chastity Are Forbidden
But that every species of immodesty and impurity are included in this prohibition of adultery, is proved by the testimonies of St. Augustine and St. Ambrose; and that such is the meaning of the Commandment is borne out by the Old, as well as the New Testament. In the writings of Moses, besides adultery, other sins against chastity are said to have been punished. Thus the book of Genesis records the judgment of Judah against his daughter-in-law. In Deuteronomy is found the excellent law of Moses, that there should be no harlot amongst the daughters of Israel. Take heed to keep thyself, my son, from all fornication, is the exhortation of Tobias to his son; and in Ecclesiasticus we read: Be ashamed of looking upon a harlot.
In the Gospel, too, Christ the Lord says: From the heart come forth adulteries and fornications, which defile a man. The Apostle Paul expresses his detestation of this crime frequently, and in the strongest terms: This is the will of God, your sanctification, that you should abstain from fornication; Fly fornication; Keep not company with fornicators; Fornication, and an uncleanness and covetousness, let it not so much as be named among you; ” Neither fornicators nor adulterers, nor the effeminate nor sodomites shall possess the kingdom of God.
Ann: Thanks! Happy New Year! I see in the 1992 CCC elaborate detail as legalistic, and an attempt to cast a specific moment and point of view in stone. I can see why people constantly quote it. It makes every attempt to be explicit, but in doing so, loses the message in the details, and is presented as a contract by which the slightest amount of differing constitutes rejection of all. I would say that actually encourages people to leave the Church more than unifies them.
There’s a similar flaw in all of these, though… Let’s take the 10 commandments, which are brilliant and immensely powerful in their simplicity and universality, then weigh them down
in pages upon pages of interpretive theological infill. It works best with Aquinas, a true theologian, than some of the others, which read like a legal committee, but to delve into a great the degree of interpretation, then present it as above scrutiny… works better when it’s elegant and bias isn’t so obviously identifiable (watch out for fancy dressed women!)
As far as Paul goes: He was a subjective human being. He’s important, but more in the sense of the historical account of the early Church, the process of evangelization, formation, persecution, and personalities of the figures involved. It’s unclear whether he even met Jesus (in person), so in terms of any message he conveys, it obviously pales to the Gospels, and is most notable where it diverges or embellishes (as here). Even if a tradition can be traced to him, he’s not a deity.
Sorry to have missed your New Year greeting, Siollan. Thanks!
Again, I see the points you are making in breaking down the Gospel/Catechism from an historical perspective. But again, it goes back to why do we believe. Is it Faith and the Spirit and God or just the constructs of man and culture?
So no, St. Paul is not the Deity, but I will choose to take it on Faith that he did receive all He received by the Grace of God. It’s that basis of Faith which will best, in my view, retain the actual message for human agency changes with the wind as evidenced by the perpetual attempt to redefine words.
God bless and see you around CCD :)
I get to meet lots of people in the course of my life and am constantly astonished at the number of people who were raised Catholic and still think of themselves as Catholics but haven’t been to church in ages. There does seem to be a willingness to share gripes about the church’s strict stances on second marriages, premarital sex, and the priest abuse outrages, but most seem still to hold to the majority of what they were taught about the faith, love the church, miss it, and wish they were more active, while admitting to feeling an abiding faith in God and belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. I’d say the reported feelings are a mix of nostalgia, discomfort with themselves, and alienation from the Church due to having experimented sexually before marriage and in many cases having divorced. Yet they had expected their children to somehow consider themselves Catholic too, with only occasional church attendance, and most people’s children are not at all religious today unless they themselves are as well.
Osmosis doesn’t transfer a love for or knowledge of the Catholic faith to the next generation, and being Catholic in Name Only reminds me of people who call themselves Italian, let’s say, when they don’t speak the language, may never have been to Italy, and no one in the family has set foot on Italian soil for 4 generations! They are in fact Americans of Italian descent, and I fear that future generations of American “Catholics” may be similarly “Catholic” by heritage only if today’s trends continue.
QUOTE: ” The Church never takes faith for granted, but knows that this gift of God needs to be nourished and reinforced so that it can continue to guide her pilgrim way.”
AND
” Read in this light, the prophetic text leads to one conclusion: we need knowledge, we need truth, because without these we cannot stand firm, we cannot move forward. Faith without truth does not save, it does not provide a sure footing.”
AND
” These, then, are the four elements which comprise the storehouse of memory which the Church hands down: the profession of faith, the celebration of the sacraments, the path of the ten commandments, and prayer. The Church’s catechesis has traditionally been structured around these four elements;
this includes the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is a fundamental aid for that unitary act with which the Church communicates the entire content of her faith: “all that she herself is, and all that she believes”. “ UNQUOTE – Pope Francis (Encyclical Letter LUMEN FIDEI, 2013)
So what are his Bishops and Priests doing about this ?
Nadia, your question, “so what are his Bishops and Priest doing about this” is a good question. The truth is that many Bishops and Priest have failed the faithful! The problem has gone on for so long that even seminarians are taught hearses which they pass on to the faithful! And it is not as if this is a recent phenomena. The truth is that Catholic Europe started declining centuries ago starting with heretical teaching in their seminaries!
The good news is that Jesus promised us that he would never abandoned His Church, no differently than he never abandoned the disobedient Israelites! The laity are the ones who are rediscovering the truth and teaching it! Also, the solid priest and Bishops we do have, typically learned the faith outside of their heretical seminaries. I have personally spoken with priest who admitted that they had to keep their “orthodox” beliefs to themselves in order to be accepted into the priesthood. (I have also heard that some seminaries have recently returned to teaching orthodoxy, but it is too early for me to know if this is true for sure)
I have no doubt that you are another one of the laity which our Blessed Lord is and will use to bring more of our brothers and sisters into the light of truth! God Bless You.
When high ups in the Vatican claim that Gustavo Gutierrez, the founder of liberation theology, is more Catholic than traditionalists, such as the Society of Pius X, then there is trouble in River City. With such lies being promulgated, is it no wonder the membership in the Catholic Church is vanishing. As was pointed out earlier, the second largest religion in the Americas is fallen away Catholics. The devil is having a field day tricking people away from the truth. My Jesus mercy!
Thanks Maddie.
US Cardinals/Bishops and their Priests should not be POLITICAL ACTIVISTS, unless a specific issue has to do with the Saving of Souls for eternity or the fundamental rights of ALL men ONLY !
CCC: 2245 & 2246.
Instead most US Bishops want us to follow them down the political path to their leftist personal beliefs. I have even seen the USCCB remove sentences from their quotes of CCC paragraphs to support their political agenda. (These type of ommissions change the meaning.)
In the USA Bishops Conferences are not much more than PACS – political action committees, and should be registered with the government as PACS.
Receiving any government funds/grants causes Bishops to give up any principles that they may have had. Secular Money becomes too important in their agendas.
Since Cardinal Wuerl who aids and abets in Sacrilege by giving Holy Communion to scandalous politcians who publically support abortion and sodomy-marriage has been appointed to take the place of Cardinal Burke on the Pope’s Committee to appoint new Bishops – we will see many more new US Bishops who wish to remake the Church into their own political organization.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6wDOryOYJ0&feature=youtube_gdata
Whoever is advising the Pope regarding the USA should be fired.
Expect more and more to leave the Church.
If we wanted to listen and follow politicians we would go to a political rally rather than Mass.
True.
The big POLITICAL push for January will be to get Catholics to write to their Congressmen to give amnesty to ILLEGAL immigrants.
These people do not obey immigration laws. They do not care that others are legally waiting in line. They do not care that they are teaching their children that it is ok to cheat and disobey laws.
Everyone has the right to enter the USA LEGALLY, but they must wait their turn just like everyone else.
Leviticus 19 — 33 When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. 34 The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.
OH, BUT THAT’S JUST GOD TALKING — WE CAN LISTEN TO FOX NEWS INSTEAD.
Another liberal who believes in the destruction of the nation state under the guise tolerance and in the name of God
Michael, our nation is so harsh with our aliens that we have over 37 million of them and they keep coming! What would your opinion be if 37 million people from around the world moved into (let’s say) Mexico, all the while demanding their “rights” to practice their own language and culture? Would you still be so quick to quote Leviticus 19-33?
“Another liberal who believes in the destruction of the nation state under the guise tolerance and in the name of God.”
Yes, o wise and wonderful Canisius, God is “just another liberal,” at least in your mind. It was God who was being quoted in that passage from Leviticus, you see.
And even more from God:
“You will not mistreat an alien, and you will not oppress him, because you were aliens in the land of Egypt.” (Exodus 22.21)
“CATECHISM of the CATHOLIC CHURCH, Second Edition” which contains the Doctrine of the Faith.
CCC: ” 2241 The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.
Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions,
especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption.
Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to OBEY its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens. ”
ILLEGAL aliens (immigrants) are not our guests.
ILLEGAL aliens brea/ violate our just immigration laws.
In addition, the USA is no longer a prosperous nation. Our National debt is over $17 TRILLION dollars, most States are Billions of Dollars in debt, and most local entities are millions of dollars in debt.
The jobless rate for our citizens in the USA is actually 13% nationally, not the lower rate put out by the Obama propaganda machine. Real statistics are per the US Bureau of Labor Statistics (which the Obama Administration will probably put pressure on).
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t15.htm
To clarify, Saginaw Michigan Bishop Untener died in 2004. Perhaps the previous poster has comments about the intervening Ordinary and the now current Ordinary.
mike, at first, I took Jesusita’s words as you did, but then I re-read what she posted. She said that her diocese is still under the demonic ACTIONS of Bishop Untener. I take it to mean that even after the bishop’s death, the actions he took prior to his death are still reaping havoc!
“Father Karl”: Your point about a suggested direction in the Third Secret of Fatima is most interesting. If that is true, or even anything like it, what then would be the level of respect necessary for popes from John XXIII forward to this day? Does the hearsay of the Apparition (which is how Mary of Fatima is now designated) carry any theological weight? Is it, can it be, binding on the Pope in any way? Put another way, is what three children said that Mary said to them alone considered by the Vatican as anything other than fiction? What is the source of your supposition? It is intriguing and would explain why the precise language of the Third Secret is never revealed. But, even so, would the institutional Church leadership care? As has been previously posted here, the Church is simply going through the predictable process of weeding out dissenters to the true revolution that occurred through and after Vatican II, and “executing” its perceived enemies. Some, like Cardinal Burke, will be tolerated, although in an isolated way. (It may be, as well, that Pope Benedict XVI is under some level of “house arrest” and is closely monitored.) Object lessons, such as with the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate are necessary (even if nonsensical) to show true power (kind of like Kim Jong-un killing his Uncle, in a particularly gruesome way — by hungry dogs — it is reported). As a recent pastor advised, at a wonderful new modern, but essentially traditionally designed, Catholic Church in the Diocese of Arlington, VA, the bishop “refused permission” to add altar rails, but the youngish pastor then also said, “It will happen someday.”
Taken from RORATE CÆLI website
‘ Third Secret of Fatima was truly written by Sister Lucia, says first researcher to examine document ‘
Santarém [Portugal], Jan 6, 2014 (Ecclesia) – University professor [at the University of Coimbra School of Letters] and paleography expert Maria José Azevedo Santos examined the manuscript of the third part of the secret of Fatima and considers it to be an “authentic” document.
“The Church never had any doubts that the document was original, and, if the Church calls upon science to present its reading, we could, of course, find a contradictory element, which did not happen, it is an authentic, true, document, that came out of the hands of Sister Lucia,” says Maria José Azevedo Santos in declarations to the official paper of the Marian shrine, ‘Voz de Fátima’.
…
“We were able to compare the letter with other manuscripts of Sister Lucia and reach the conclusion that this one, that is not signed, is by the same author, that is the scientific conclusion.”… . “My testimony is truly unique, because the task I received is also unique, I was the first lay woman to be in direct contact with the aforesaid document, with prior authorization of His Holiness, Pope Francis, granted to the delegated of the Bishop of Leiria-Fátima,” says the researcher.
…
The document, held under the custody of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, had left the archives twice, at the request of Pope John Paul II, following the attempt [on his life] on May 13, 1981, and in the year 2000, when the Prefect of the Congregation came to Coimbra, as a Papal emissary, to proceed to the recognition of the document with Sister Lucia.
[Source: Ecclesia, in Portuguese]
Just as Russia is still suffering from the damages done to her under Stalin,so also most of the dioceses of Michigan are still struggling from the horrible ecclesiastical leadership which was thrust upon them in the 1960’s. Nuns are pastors, and are doing religious services including Eucharistic, baptismal, marriage and funeral services. The laity see no difference between Catholics and Protestants, and think of everyone just as Christian. The grand knight of the Knights of Columbus believes that Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton are wonderful spiritual leaders whom more should listen to in the Church. And, the list of abuses goes on. It took just a few years to destroy Christ’s vineyard here in Michigan (and I suppose most dioceses), and it will take a much longer time period to restore all things in Christ. The evil effects of Bishop Untener are present even though he died several years ago, and most of the people here consider him a saint. Ave Maria Purrissima!
Jesuita,
Thank you for your informative post. The only remark that I ever heard Jesse Jackson say that I agreed with (even though he, (Jesse) shows great inconsistency in applying it ) also applies to many within the Church. Jesse Jackson once said, “The Laws of Convenience Lead to Collapse.” Our Lady of Akita, Japan used the word *COMPROMISE .*
I look at the vast loss of faith, those in the millions, at the causes that have been enumerated here (Bp Untener’s famous authorizing of the showing of graphic pornographic films to his seminarians to “loosen up” those who were “morally rigid”, as Jesusita mentions; the criminal abuse problem in the priesthood; the bishops who attack TLM’ers but condone liberation and radical feminist theologies, etc) and recall the transcript of Sr Lucy of Fatima’s famous interview with Fr. Fuentes speaking of “a diabolical disorientation” that threatens the church (in 1959, mind you), on the very eve of Vat 2. It is the only explanation any more that makes sense to me.
Overall, the main problem is that our bishops have lost their thirst for the salvation of souls. Their efforts to obtain physical health care, and other material benefits have resulted in a decrease in efforts to bring souls to Christ. How can this be overcome?
Canisius, you have a problem with – Your kind has emasculated the Church with endless talk about love, because why? God is love. We are to love one another has He has loved us. We are to show our love for our fellow men/women, friends and enemies. Is it wrong to love one another?
I have a problem with an emasculated Church whose priests and bishops will NOT teach the moral truths of the Church… instead we get pablum, example we have Fr. G. of MA comparing the Holy Family to families with 2 “father” and 2 “mothers”,,, this is kind of garbage spawned by the church of Nice.. No Bob One I will not love sin be elevated to being on par with the Holy Family…
I think it is wise to consider the extent to which “error” occurs in masses. Has there been a “clown mass”? Yes! How many? One I think, or at least one that made the news. Has there been a priest that equated the Holy Family to same sex families? Yes! How many? At least one that you know of. There is no denying that abuses exist. But, my experience is that for every priest who goes off the reservation there are thousands and thousands that do the right thing, that are holy and preside at holy masses. For every congregation that is a little weird (in someones opinion), there are thousand and thousands who have an encounter with Christ every time they attend mass. Because of the actions of the few, the entire church is not bad or mad. I don’t know how well engaged you are at your parish, but join the Pastoral Council, the Finance Council, the RCIA team, the St. Vincent de Paul team, the Knights, the CYO basketball committee, become a lector, etc. You will find many holy and wonderful people in your parish. I think I just convinced myself to become more engaged.
Well, Jesus DID have two fathers, and he turned out OK.
Folks, as Pope Paul VII pointed out around 1972, the “smoke of satan” mysteriously drifted through the cracks in the Church left through the DISTORTIONS of Vatican II promulgated by so many who had an agenda, and saw an opening @ the conclusion of VII to do their dirty deeds. All or mostly all of the documents of VII are ABSOLUTELY in line with what was ALWAYS taught in the Catholic Church up to that time; the perverse genius of lucifer was to DISTORT the teachings to introduce confusion and heresy, to the detriment of the faithful. Some 40,000 nuns and maybe more priests just dropped out of the Church in the U.S., as they left to “do their own thing,” ALA “cafeteria Catholicism, and other aberrations. Read the 2nd in the series of books by Fr. Gabriel Amorth, the Vatican’s chief exorcist to read the full text of what Pope Paul VI said.(He’s ALSO up for canonization after JPII and good Pope John XXIII) It’s pretty chilling, and very detailed and extensive. For God’s sake, why do you people think that Benedict XVI in January 2008 sent out exorcists all over the world in order to train more exorcists, so needed because of a great outpouring of evil? And have NONE of you been reading of Pope Francis’ also calling for MORE training of exorcists all over the world? WE’RE experiencing a tremendous plague of evil spirits afflicting more people than ever; think of the INFESTATION of evil spirits into the White House upon the “election” of Obama and also accompanying the rise in more and more people falling for the monstrous evil of “GAY MARRIAGE.”
Well.
After reading so much of this stuff, I’d say we have “vanishing Catholics” because people with common horse sense are being driven from the Church by some of the fanatics like those who post in here.
In my parish, when I encounter people like this, I scoot for the car, rather than end up listening to a bunch of nonsense from someone with way too much time on their hands.
Geoffrey, do you think the BIBLE and the “CATECHISM of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” are fanatical ?
Have you read the New Testament and the CCC from cover to cover lately?
Perhaps you are in need of knowledge and conversion.
Sticking your head in the sand gets you nowhere.
For quotes from Blessed Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict, and Pope Francis regarding our need to study the Dcotrine of the Faith contained in the CCC – see:
“What Catholics REALLY Believe SOURCE”
https://whatcatholicsreallybelieve.com/
“In my parish, when I encounter people like this, I scoot for the car.”
Geoffrey, Are you sure it isn’t you that is driving others away? You poor soul, well at least you are scooting right to the car and not in circles in the church parking lot. There are a handful of reasons why this occurs and thankfully a caring vet or clinician can help you move in the right direction. Proper and prompt treatment is crucial and available. The office staff will keep you in our prayers, but we prefer to not keep the scooting problem in our thoughts.
Geoffrey, after you “scoot to your car, rather than listen to a bunch of nonsense……” what do you do next? Drive home, go into your house, turn on the TV, then finally, tune into the talking heads on CNN or MSMBC for some good ol’ COMMON horse sense?
The horses mouth (idiom) — The original source.
Common — Belonging equally to all: joint. Widespread; prevalent; general. Usual; ordinary. The most widely known.
Geoffrey, what precisely are you expecting to find in following Jesus and His Catholic Church anyway?
Well, typical CalCath censorship of ANY criticism of Trad. Catholics who are, among other things, sedavacantist, meaning many won’t recognize any Pope as valid AFTER Pope Pius Xii, but that’s just for starters; how come these Catholic Trads are so “untouchable” and no criticism of some of their lunacies is allowed? I posted a LOT MORE than got printed, especially about the LOONS who have it in for Pope Paul Vi, and especially after he was alleged to be so in favor of the Novus Ordae Mass over the Tridentine Rite? Now why is that? And why have they calumniated him so badly over the years? Yet he gave us possibly the most brilliant Encyclical in 500 years, “Humane Vitae,” and btw, NO MENTION of what I posted in this regard along with the other stuff? There’s a severe lack of intellectual honesty operative on this site from time to time, but always when the subject may be the Catholic Trad. bunch and their intolerance. Pathetic.
Both the ORDINARY FORM (Novis Ordo) of the MASS and the EXTRAORDINARY FORM (Traditional/Latin) of the MASS are Holy.
Both forms are abused if they do not completely adhere to requirements.
The Ordinary Form must adhere to GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal); the Extraordinary Form must adhere to the 1962 Missal.
https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20030317_ordinamento-messale_en.html
If your Priest or people in your Parish do not adhere to requirements, talk to your Priest and if that does not work to correct the problem, contact your Diocese Bishop.
Markrite,
Is offending God acceptable in your terms of religious tolerance? I don’t think so, nor do some modern Catholics besides Catholics who worship Our Creator in the manner He so instructed based on Roman Catholic traditions.
Again, vanishing Catholics is all about the loss of the Roman Catholic faith and sanctifying grace from the V2 Council and its liberal-minded un-controlled aftermath of continuous changes.
From a comment by Bain on the original article:
The 2008 Pewforum Survey took a snapshot of religious affiliation of adults in the USA. Of those raised Catholic, 68% had stayed Catholic, 18% had converted to another religious group, and 14% had abandoned religion altogether.
The survey doesn’t say where those 18% converts went, but 22% of Buddhists in the USA were raised Catholic as were 4% of Hindus, 3% of Jews, and 4% of Muslims. Among non-Catholic Christians, 9% of the members of the so-called “mainline churches” were raised Catholic. Among the sects (if we must call them that), 7% of Mormons were raised Catholic and 26% of Jehovah’s Witnesses were.
How about if we all ask our pastor, this week end, if they have a copy of the catechism in their office or library. The results of the unscientific survey might be very interesting.
Two copies!
https://www.mhr.org/MHRDocuments/Books%20by%20Title%205-21-13.pdf
Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!
When I was growing up in the 40s, and 50s, everyone knew for sure that you would go to hell if you missed Mass on Sunday, and for any of thousands of other reasons that were preached to us. Then, Vatican II came along. It did let in a lot of fresh air. If you did not live in those times in a very traditional parish – they all were – you just can’t relate to the oppression of the time. But, it wasn’t just the Catholic churches. All of the main line churches were just as dogmatic, except maybe the Congregational churches. Vatican II changed a lot of things. We would no longer go to hell if we had a hot dog on Friday, you name it. What it did do, I believe, is open all of the church teachings to questioning. If you were not going to hell for eating meat on Friday (remember the arguments about biting into an apple with a worm in it?) did all of the other rules apply? When contraceptives became available, you could shop around for a priest who, in the confessional, might tell you that it was ok to uses them. So, many might be right about not teaching about sin, but the notion of sin changed overnight. Those who had been questioning the teaching for a long time took advantage of the confusion among the masses of people. Too many were defecting for the priest to have time to visit you and set you straight. The same was happening to the mainline Protestant churches. If it wasn’t a sin for Catholics any more, why couldn’t the Methodists have a drink or dance if they wanted to? The problems is, we have had almost three generations of people grow up with the “new” church. It will never go back to the way it was. My grand-daughter, who is in college, heard the other day that Mass was once said in Latin. She called to ask if that was true, or was the teacher playing a joke on her. For those of us who are older the Vietnam was is recent history. Today’s kids couldn’t identify the decade in which it occurred. I think the real issue is that people are leaving organized religion, no matter the denomination because it isn’t considered relevant to young people. Wait until they are sixty years old and sick and facing mortality. They will return then.
So, Bob One, is this an endorsement of Vatican II? If so, I could hardly think of more damning argumentation.
Yeah Bob One your pathetic Vatican 2 Generation has done a great job in destroying the Church from within. There will be remnant remaining and aghast it will be us Traditionalist who will pick up the pieces and rebuild on the crushed bones on failed Council known as Vatican 2
Don’t know what happened to my comment earlier, Bob One, but I find your post very interesting. Interesting because what you outline in many cases was VERY true and yet there are plenty of young Catholics who seek out Tradition. And prefer it. That was so for my family and I and many other young folks looking to find what was real. That is something solid, something that didn’t contradict itself ( instead of the perpetual gray area of doing what works for you.)
As for your granddaughter, bully for her in asking you. But it’s rather sad to think that college aged Catholics (sorry if I’m presuming) wouldn’t have any idea of the history, even the recent history of something as integral as their Faith. A grown niece of mine shocked me years ago when she insisted that the Catholic Church was okay with birth control – why? – because her good friend, the head of a particular Catholic group at her school was pro-birth control.
There’s an extreme lack of depth, Bob One. And there has been for a long time as it wasn’t so much the ‘eating of the hot dog’ on Friday that was hell worthy, but rather the motivation behind it. That of, I don’t need to discipline myself so who cares. As for missing Sunday mass, that’s just a matter of putting yourself and what you want before giving God His due. It’s still a mortal sin, I believe, if one misses Mass without sufficient excuse. Adult Catholics, especially parents, should understand the reasoning behind these exercises in self-discipline as they establish the notion of Duty.
Not the idea that we’ll come around to thinking of God when we’re, “… sixty years old and sick and facing mortality.” It’s like only calling your parents when the will is about to be written. Doesn’t bespeak of Faith and love, but self interest which is a huge problem in society.
So sad that the leaders of the Church, Our Mother, seemingly dismissed the notion of right and wrong overnight, leaving us to learn the hard way. For while the oppressiveness might have seemed unbearable, losing the Faith all together and any sense of sin, is far worse.
VANISHING CATHOLICS – – –
1) LACK of CATECHESIS in entirety – Bishops and Priests not telling Catholics to read the Bible and the “CATECHISM of the CATHOLIC CHURCH, Second Edition” at home even though Pope Francis, Pope Benedict, and Pope John Paul II have asked us to do so.
Therefore most Catholics do not know their Faith in entirety, and therefore do not know what they are leaving.
2) CONFUSION –
a) Bishops not handling PUBLIC SCANDAL by Catholics publically so all people will know right from wrong.
b) Disgraced and dissendent Priests and Bishops (like Cardinal Roger Mahony) still being allowed to preach in the Diocese who aided and abetted child abusers, being able to use the name “emeritus” and having an advertised audience with the Pope today.
https://www.visnews-en.blogspot.com/2014/01/audiences_16.html
c) Cardinal O’Malley of Boston (one of the Pope’s 9 main Cardinal advisors) having a divorced/female Methodist minister readminister his rite of Baptism with an anointing in a Protestant Church.
https://www.patriotledger.com/features/x890778978/To-a-female-Methodist-minister-a-surprise-request-from-Cardinal-O-Malley
When Cardinals & Bishops (or their Priests) send the message by their actions that one Religion or one Church is just as good as another – is it any wonder that people are leaving the Catholic Faith in droves?
Why bother?
The participation in SACRILEGE against the Body and Blood of Our Lord (Eucharist) by some Cardinals, Bishops, Priests, when they give or order that Communion be given to those publically known to be in the state of mortal sin – (violation of Canon 915 and Canon 1399)
( https://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/holycom/denial.htm );
and
their open and direct disobedience and refusal to adhere to the Apostolic Constitution regarding the Code of Canon Law even when commanded to do so by the Pope sends a message to all Laity as well – and the message is: “it’s ok to do whatever you deem appropriate, the teachings of the Church really don’t matter”.
QUOTE: “So that all may more easily be informed and have a thorough knowledge of these norms before they have juridical binding force, I declare and order that they will have the force of law beginning from the first day of Advent of this year, 1983”. UNQUOTE – Pope John Paul II
https://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_jp-ii_apc_25011983_sacrae-disciplinae-leges_en.html
If many Cardinals, many Bishops and many Priests do not care – based upon their public actions and public omissions, why should anyone who has not been strongly catechized (which is the majority) want to stay in the Catholic Church?
Pray my friends.