We all woke up on Friday, July 16, to yet another example of Papa Bergoglio’s heavy-handedness with the promulgation of his latest motu proprio, Traditionis Custodes, reversing the legislation of his predecessors, St. John Paul II (1984 and 1988) and Benedict XVI (2007), on the use of the Missal of Pope St. Pius V, dubbed the “extraordinary form” of the Roman Rite by Benedict.
In the interests of full disclosure, let me state at the outset that I don’t really have a pony in this race. Although I celebrate the “extraordinary form” (EF) Mass when requested, my own personal preference is the “ordinary form” (OF) in Latin, facing East. That said, as regular readers of CWR will know from homilies published here, I frequently help out at Holy Innocents Parish in Midtown Manhattan and there offer Holy Mass in both forms. As a matter of fact, I have assisted at that parish for more than twenty-six years. Before the Tridentine or EF Mass was introduced there in 2008, I offered the OF in Latin….
….We learn that the norms of this document are to go into effect immediately. This is unknown in canonical legislation, to the best of my knowledge, especially since implementation should require prior proper catechesis.
He indicates that where the Missal of 1962 is followed, such Masses cannot be held in parish churches. Where would he like them to occur? Should a space be rented in the local Marriott (as the Society of St. Pius X does when they lack a church)? Is he so misinformed that he thinks these congregations could fit into a convent chapel? Similarly, he forbids the establishment of any new personal parishes for this liturgical expression. Does he really want to drive laity attached to the EF into the waiting and welcoming arms of the SSPX? (He did once say that he might be the Pope to create a schism.)
Francis says that priests who have been celebrating the Tridentine rite “should” seek the permission of their bishops to continue. Does “should” mean “must”? Of course, if the document had been promulgated in Latin, we would not have to wonder about that.
Most amazing of all perhaps is the requirement that priests ordained after this document must petition their bishops for permission to celebrate in the EF and that bishops must “consult” the Holy See! Any Catholic can marry a total pagan with a mere dispensation from the local Ordinary, but this request has to go to Rome? Beyond that, such a mentality may well lead seminarians and young priests to bypass diocesan priesthood in favor of joining either one of the “traditional” communities in union with Rome (like the Fraternity of St. Peter) or even of going over to the SSPX. Were that to happen, a diocesan bishop would lose a man who was comfortable in offering Holy Mass in both forms.
Unmentioned in either the letter or the motu proprio itself is the question of other sacraments. Summorum Pontificum explicitly allowed for the celebration of all the sacraments (except Holy Orders for a candidate not attached to a “traditional” community) in the older rites. Does the omission of this concern leave the door open? Or, are we to assume that Francis has “abrogated” every jot and tittle of Benedict’s document? As usual, Francis’ lack of precision, canonically and theologically, leads to more questions than answers.
The above comes from a July 17 story by Father Peter Stravinskas in Catholic World Report.
Starting next Monday, July 26, anyone leaving a comment cannot use Anonymous, Anon, or the same name as another commenter.
Why not give it immediate effect, like Traditionis custodes?
Anony, A non, An on, A nonymous, Anonymousse, Anonymouse, An onymous… the possibilities are seemingly endless. Can you stay ahead of all the workarounds people will come up with?
Hey… THATS anonomouse, Anonymous. Get it rigth, will ya?
Thank you! I have been posting for years as Dan and I do appreciate replying to a named individual. Some post with both first and last names and one day I may gather up the courage to do so, though I am very much afraid of cancel culture, or at the very least being named a fool.
How about using Anonymous XXIII? or Anonymous II? or Anonymous XVI? :)
I claim Pope Anonymous
No Steve I don’t think that’s a good idea. Why not use your name, could be first like mine. On some sites I use my full name and haven’t had any problems and even if I did so what? Have courage..
My comment was purely in jest. I agree with you. People could also use a different name.
Why not use your first name. What’s the problem with that. On some sites I use my full name. People need to have courage.
@TheRealAnonymous would be a good one.
Can I comment as Pope Francis?
Unchecked homosexuality is running rampant in the Church, bishops protect priests who abuse boys, financial scandals rock the Church, so how does this pope seek to help the Church? He decides to attack faithful Catholics by restricting the use of the beautiful Latin Mass. I don’t consider myself a “trad”. I have only attended the traditional Latin Mass a small number of times, because of where I live.
Yeah, like the USCCB general secretary who just resigned because he got caught using Grindr for gay hookups.
You have to wonder if the Vatican remembers the word “laicize”?
Guess the Rite:
A) N.O. Mass
B) Latin Mass
The devil, the flesh and the world tempt everyone. The gravity of another’s sin does not negate the gravity of your sin. (Rhetorical). Even if you are not sinning, you should not use the sin of another to justify being less than holy.
Everything that happens in your life is designed to increase your virtue and holiness. We all miss many opportunities by our rebellion and self-will. We complain instead of thanking God.
Whatever happens in life, we do well always and everywhere to give thanks to God. Getting to heaven when you die is the most important thing.
When you are truly holy (and I am not) you will not notice another’s fault except to pray and make sacrifices for them.
This is the point of cloisters and monasteries. They still get tempted as the Lord allows but not so much by the world. The devil afflicts them and they have some of the same trials of the flesh, although conformity to the rule helps with that too.
Priests, bishops and nuns are all supposed to specialize in holiness, in a lifelong union to Christ, in total dedication to Him. They are supposed to be very well-trained and experienced in spirituality– good leaders and Role Models for all of us. They are supposed to be very good, very reliable and dependable, in their holy work for Christ.
Why is just the Traditional Latin Mass being trounced? There are 21 Eastern Catholic Churches in union with Rome (e.g., Byzantine, Maronite, etc.), and they all have their own rites and languages. Francis is not messing with them because if he did, they might just return to Eastern Orthodoxy which is what they were until uniting with Rome. I have been to several Eastern Catholic church liturgies and noticed they didn’t wreckovate their churches like what happened in the West after Vatican2 . Having said that, I have no problem going to the SSPX if I have to. I am not going to a novus ordo mass because what I witness there on Sundays caused me to flee to the TLM.
How many years has it been since the dubia? Those bishops haven’t got a response. What do we get from this papacy? Weaponized ambiguities. Idols to be worshipped at the Amazon Synod. James Martin promotes sin and teaches heresy, and he gets a pat on the back. Faithful Catholics get a beautiful liturgy yanked away from them. It’s like we are living in the “Bizarro World”. We need to pray for Divine intervention.
God is allowing us to be tested, but Jesus promised that the gates of hell will not prevail.
He threw the real Catholics in China under the bus. Did we think that it wouldn’t happen here?
My sentiments exactly. This also begs the question, who’s next?
It is as if Pope Francis is trying his best to make the sedevacantists appear legit. I’d like to know how many have left to the SSPV or SSPX because of him? Maybe that was his goal!
Father says he has not a dog in this fight, er, pony in this race. I have never been to a TLM but I feel for those who do and find nourishment for the soul there. In that light I think what Francis did was awful. Should he seek my advice, I would not hesitate to tell that to him to his face. This move is surpassed only by his rehabilitating McCarrick and trashing the poor suffering Catholics in China.
I guess Francis will still need to answer if we will be allowed to pray to the pachamama idol in Latin or if idolatry will only be allowed in the vernacular. You know, for unity.
James from Brazil, I love your comment.
Breaking News: Francis wins top recruiter award for the SSPX.
Vatican II happened. Get with the Church.
The title of the Pope’s moto propio is Ridiculously funny, “guardians of tradition” give me a break.It should be called destroyers of tradition, the TLM is traditional not the Novus Ordo.
The Novus Ordo Mass overlaps with the preconciliar Mass overwhelmingly. Attitudes like yours are what Pope Francis is trying to fix in the Church.
Because they are both the same rite.
Romulus Augustus, so, you don’t know the faith and this is the problem. Talking to you and pointing out errors has done no good.. It has been ineffective because you don’t even understand the Catholic faith and the Catholic Church.
It is Guardians of Tradition with a capital T, not small t. Tradition is There Is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
The forms of the Roman Rite are different but not substantially different. It is the same rite.
But you like one and not the other.
The Catholic Church is not yours. It does not revolve around you. it is not bespoke.
In many ways, the Church is like the military, not like a pizza where you get to pick your own toppings.
Romulus Augustus–A very intelligent, accurate observation!
The weapon of Mass destruction from Francis came out on international snake day. Fact check that!
Papacy of the Borg, “All must be assimilated”.
Here’s an unanswered question about TLM supporters: why so many of them want to ignore or roll back Vatican II?
If you’re talking about FSSP and ICK, they support the Second Vatican Council.
If you’re talking about SSPX, I’ve noticed several things in my discussions over the years with them. However, I don’t think it’s advised to discuss this right now because of all of the unrest caused by the motion proprietor. We don’t need more discord right now
Drat! It looks like my software did a word replacement. Please note that “motion proprietor” should have been “motu proprio.”
Your software reminds me of the telephone robot lady on my last phone, who told me it was an invalid number (pronounced like the number was incapacitated), instead of an invalid number (pronounced like the number was fake).
Contrary to Seitz’s words, the truth is that the beloved FSSP and the beloved ICRSS might pay lip service to Vatican II officially (they need to do that officially in order to be allowed to work in dioceses otherwise they’d be out like the beloved SSPX), but deep down they would rather see Vatican II done away with including the Ordinary Form. I mean, as a rule they won’t offer the Ordinary Form nor concelebrate. How’s that for disdain and divisiveness? Ask the Archbishop of Dijon, he’ll tell you all about it. He expelled the beloved FSSP from his territory recently, even before the Pope’s new motu propio came out.
The pope’s new motu proprio is just as ridiculous and “un-Catholic” as “Amoris Laetitia.” Next, we will probably all be told to attend a “Pachamana Mass.”
I don’t argue anymore with you because of your belligerent style.
If anyone wishes to make the argument on jon’s behalf, please kindly do so.
I am using the same pointed, unabashed, frank and straightforward manner in which you people address and refer to the Pope and the bishops in this here blog. If you find that manner “belligerent” then you ought to be more deferential when you refer to those in the Church who deserve such a more convivial and deferential manner: namely the Pope and the bishops. Straight up.
I believe in civil decorum, and it’s clear to me that you’re trying to rationalize your bad behavior. If you think that someone is being rude, then tell them – don’t act like them.
Rude behavior is not acceptable.
On the contrary Steve Seitz, there is nothing belligerent nor bad about any of the words and points I have printed here. However, if someone were to declare here that the Pope himself, the Supreme Pontiff, is not faithful to Vatican II, that is not only belligerence but also irreverence and disrespect to one’s spiritual father, not to mention false. I daresay that is what you’ve done and it very serious. You should rather be more concerned about that behavior rather than anything I have said, for what I have said here is merely the truth plainly spoken.
Please note that I have more issues with how you’ve argued over the past few months than what I’ve mentioned here. Nevertheless, it just occurred to me that I’ve made some assumptions about your age and academic background that might be false. I’ll try to take this into consideration.
Regarding the Pope. He’s a man who has faults like the rest of. We assume that he’s faithful and that he seeks holiness unless shown otherwise. However, the Church only considers him to be infallible under very rare and specific circumstances.
You’ve inferred that the Pope is faithful to Vatican II by definition. As I stated above, this is only guaranteed when the Pope operates in an infallible capacity. What you inferred is not doctrinal and is always open for debate. Therefore, to question this is not automatically belligerent, irreverent, or disrespectful.
I might add, that even if people were slandering the Pope, this does not give anyone the excuse to counterattack in kind. Instead, try to destroy their argument in charity.
To say that the Pope does not adhere to the Second Vatican Council (which is what you had written here) is basically saying that the Pope is heretical. And Steve Seitz, that is a very grave thing to say about the Supreme Pontiff. It’s more than being belligerent on your part. It’s much much worse. And yet here you are saying you’re all for “civil decorum,” that you don’t like rudeness, and bad behavior. Well, Steve Seitz, what you have done is far worse than anything you have falsely accused me of doing. I say: “first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.”
Please let me diverge and quickly go over some things about Vatican II. The Council is part of the Magisterial teaching of the Church; however, Vatican II was not called to settle dogmatic issues. Rather, it was a pastoral council that was called to address a spiritual malaise that had crept into the Church as well as other contemporary issues. In addition, not all of the conciliar documents carry the same weight. The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy is at the highest level, but this pertained to matters of liturgy: not dogma. In other words, this document did not involve dogma; therefore, it would not be correct to say that I called Francis a heretic.
As I recall, I wrote that Francis was not faithful to the Council. I don’t recall where I said this, but it was in response to the Pope [or someone else] stating that the TLM was not in compliance with Vatican II. I wrote my statement because the Council stated that Latin should be retained in the Liturgy. As we know, Paul VI and his predecessors did not comply with this. This makes none of these popes a heretic.
I now have a question for you. If the Pope were to say that the Eucharistic bread becomes Christ through the process of consubstantiation, he would directly contradict the Council of Trent and be a heretic. In this hypothetical situation, would it be appropriate to call the Pope a heretic?
Steve Seitz, the issue in our discussion here is not about the Pope or Vatican II. The main issue here is your behavior, specifically your claiming to be against rudeness and civil coarseness, yet here you are falsely accusing the Pope of heresy.
Mr. Seitz, I esteem you to be my intellectual superior and much better suited to dealing with jon.
Yes, you’re correct: We’re discussing behavior. This is why I’m spending time with you here. You have accused me of belligerence, irreverence, and disrespect because you feel that I’ve labeled Francis as a heretic due to a Vatican II issue. This is why Vatican II and the Pope are part of this discussion.
I have not accused the Pope of heresy either directly or indirectly. Please please re-read slowly my preceding post to you dated 7-25-21 at 8:02 pm. This is very important. After re-reading this, could you please answer the question that I posed at the end of that post. Your answer is pivotal to our discussion on behavior.
My comments will all be infallible.
I doubt that I am not alone in thinking that the Pope may have made a mistake with this pronouncement. If some people like the TLM better than the NO, why not let them have their bit of spirituality. That said … In the US at least, the TLMers brought it upon themselves to some degree. One only has to read comments on this site over the years to understand the division they caused. It is likely that 98% of those millions upon millions who attend mass each Sunday have never attended a Mass in Latin, think about a Mass in Latin, or want to attend one if they did. They don’t know that they are evil people because they go to a Mass approved by the church because it is in the vernacular, etc. I suspect that 99% of those who attend the TLM don’t know that there are few of their fellow worshipers browbeating everyone else on media. They go because they like to worship that way. It is the haters who brought on the destruction of their prefered rite.
Here is how I see it. Catholics really have no choice, the hierarchy makes all the decisions, in Rome– and we follow along. For centuries, we had a beautiful and holy Mass, and many lovely, deeply spiritual traditions, that many Catholics deeply cherished– it uplifted many worshippers, and helped them get closer to God, too. We were also blessed with lots of graces, in the pre-Conciliar style of worship! Many Saints were made, practicing the ancient pre-Conciliar Catholic Faith. Then we had the crashing descent of the modern age — and Vatican II. Everything got torn down, and replaced with banal, brutally ugly, cold, crass, meaningless, tragically insensitive, dehumanizing, “un-spiritual,” worldly, profane, modern religious styles, and that makes many people very unhappy! Modernist styles in anything– including religion– are just terrible, and actually– quite destructive!– and so, people have complained! But of course, no one listens. The Vatican is not interested in their views– the Vatican only listens to the latest trends of the worldly and profane, of the modern age. To destroy what is very sacred and holy, and deeply meaningful and spiritual, that helps you feel close to God, and uplifts your soul– is a shockingly terrible thing! Reminds me of the tragic burning of Notre Dame Cathedral, in Paris. Or the madman who went into the Vatican many years ago, and swung an axe, and tried to destroy Michaelangelo’s exquisitely beautiful “Pieta.”
But I also believe in the rights of those who just prefer a simple, modernistic (even ugly!) church, and style of worship. As long as they are Catholic believers in Faith and Morals, that’s totally okay, I believe.
And when the roof of Notre Dame came crashing down on the newer altar, the only altar left was the high altar against the wall. Hummm? Can only wonder if the Good Lord was trying to tell us all something.
I keep thinking the same thing. Those youtube channels which make a huge bundle by criticizing everything having to do with Vatican II, the Mass, and the actions of bishops and popes create unnecessary division and we see that reflected in some of the posts on sites like this one. They don’t simply extol the virtues and beauties of the TLM, they tear down anything that is not TLM. I think this is what Pope Francis is trying to phase out, moreso than the TLM itself.
It is a big responsibility to criticize, and try to change anything that is very wrong — just as Pro-Lifers do, at Planned Parenthood. And the “dissenters” against Communism, in Cuba, also– God bless them.
Why not just use a pre-1962 Roman Missal?
There’s definitely nothing wrong with doing that and it would seem to make the whole motu proprio issue go away.
That is not allowed.
Not allowed? It’s infallibly guaranteed as a right to be said, and also infallibly prohibited to be changed. One of the biggest errors today is the idea that Quo Primum was just a bull. It most definitely is not.
Pius V was clearly invoking infallibility. Why else would the Pope threaten all Catholic posterity with the wrath of God, Peter, and Paul? You don’t do those sorts of things as Pope if you’re promulgating something that’s merely disciplinary, but for something infallible and, in one form or other, dogmatic.
Please, dear priests: revisit the literature on Quo Primum and Trent and to understand the full extent your sacred rights (but also duties).
Why not? The Paul VI Mass is not God. It can always be modified or replaced.
Let’s see if I can sum up the current situation in the Church.
1) You can be a good Catholic and worship Pachahmama as long as you do not use Latin.
2) You can be a good Catholic if you ignore the Vatican and bless homosexual pretend to be marriages.
3) You can be a good Catholic and lector if you dress like a prostitute in Church.
4) You can be a good Catholic if you spend your entire political career supporting the murder of babies. The Church will give you a pompous and glorious funeral where it tells the world about how great a Catholic you are.
5) You can be a good Catholic if you divorce and remarry without getting an annulment.
6) You can be a good Catholic if you refuse to believe that contraception is a sin.
7) If you worship God at a Latin Mass with reverence, piety, and devotion, you are fomenting division in the Church and you are a bad Catholic.
Don’t forget “You can be a good Catholic priest, if you flit around from diocese to diocese promoting homosexuality and heresy”, but if you are are a Catholic priest who unapologetically speaks the truth, your faculties will be removed because they don’t like your tone and manner.
And if you have a problem with the scandals that are taking place in your Diocese, then you are wounding the unity of the Church, you are a troublemaker, you are divisive, and you are hateful.
It depends on how you do it. I have found that Christian correction, respectfully presented, is appreciated or tolerated. Initial reactions may be disappointing but it can have a longer term positive effect.
When you exaggerate, call names, label, condemn and judge, then people rightly look at you as “who is he to tell anyone else how to be a Christian.”
You don’t really understand the Faith.
It is a mortal sin to worship idols in any language.
Homosexual marriages cannot be blessed in the Church.
Only modest dress should be worn anywhere.
Abortion is a mortal sin. Pro-choice politicians are not to approach to receive communion.
contracting a civil marriage is a mortal sin. Divorce is a great evil. Remarriage after divorce is adultery and one may not receive communion after that.
Contraception is a mortal sin.
You may worship at a licit Latin Mass.
People who come anywhere near the Church see that no one lives by or hears about those teachings. The message that is given is that those teachings don’t exist. The opposite message is being proclaimed by the way Catholics through most of the Church live their lives. The Church is teaching an anti-gospel by example. People are being taught by the Church that it is okay to sin. And when some people want to go to devout faith communities without leaving the Church, they are being told by the Pope that they are fomenting division in the Church. They only option left if you want to belong to a devout faith community is to leave the Church.
It is not true that no one lives by or hears about those teachings.
Most of the talk about not worshipping idols is about why we have statues or about the modern version of idols such as money, materialism, status, etc.
Traditional marriage is super important because most priests and their parishioners realize the day might come where they are sued or jailed for refusing to “officiate” at a same sex marriage.
I have seen bulletin announcements concerning improper dress at Church at more than one church in more than one diocese.
The denial of communion is controversial and it is talked about all the time. In my opinion, the difficulty is that so many people have personal issues with rejection and ostracism. They feel like God is love and he rejects no one who comes to him, as it says in Scripture. Other people conform to the teaching of the Church that if you are not in communion, you should not take Communion. Others have concern is for the soul of the person who might be receiving in mortal sin. Some people just feel like “the rules are the rules.”
NFP classes are taught at least once a year, maybe more depending on how many people are available. Although a lot of people attend to try to find out how to get pregnant.
Traditional Catholics have a lot of personal issues with rejection and ostracism. Traditional Catholics are often sneered at in Church and are often told that they are holier than thou or that they are trapped in medieval times. The comments on this website reflect the attitudes that many in the Church have toward traditional Catholics. The Pope said that traditional Catholics are a bunch of Pharisees that are obsessed with small minded rules. The Pope said that those who want to worship God with reverence and devotion at a Latin Mass are fomenting division in the Church. Many in the Church are following the Pope’s example and persecuting traditional Catholics. Traditional Catholics are not wanted in the Church.
Sorry “Don’t touch,” but the Pope has never said anything of the kind that you falsely attribute to him here.
jon, there are plenty of articles out there about what the Pope said about Pharisees and small minded rules that those who have access to the Internet can find. These articles make it clear that the Pope is targeting the few Catholics that are left who believe that abortion and contraception are both sins. Jewish leaders were offended by the Pope’s references to Pharisees. Stop trying to pretend that I am just making stuff up. It is clear from the hostile tone of your comments that you personally hate me and want to run me out the Church.
So “Don’t” if you really believe that Pope Francis thinks of “traditionalists” as akin to being “pharisees,” and if you really believe that he is “targeting” the few Catholics who still believe that abortion and contraception are wrong, then why don’t you do as Our Lord taught us to do when being persecuted: “turn the other cheek.” So “Don’t”, that means that a good and solid advice is for you not to post anything here that accuses the Pope of anything sinister (because that won’t be turning the other cheek now would it?), and if you can’t manage that, then you mustn’t post anything here ever again. Ok? Ok.
So jon is now arguing that Traditional Catholics should be pushed around and treated like dirt. Very revealing.
Really? I am arguing that some Catholics “should be pushed around and treated like dirt”? Can you please cite the date and time when I wrote those exact words without quoting you?
You just told me to shut up if I have a problem with Pope Francis using denigrating terms to refer to Catholics that adhere to the Magisterium. You are advocating being a door mat that always gets trampled upon by bullies. Your vested interest in other people being defenseless victims of bullies is quite clear. If I have any failures in charity here, which I will try to avoid to the best of my strength, they will be because I was provoked by your bullying.
Be under no illusion, “Don’t”, it is the Holy Father, Vatican II, and the Ordinary Form that are being treated like dirt all these years by some, if not many, who go to the TLM. The cause of unity in the Church is what is being “pushed aside”. It was high time that Pope Francis acted and he finally did. These false allegations you foist here do not work with me. Sorry.
Be under no illusion, jon, your belligerence, caustic personality, and treating those that disagree with you like dirt will not work with me. The more belligerent you get, the more I will resist your filthy lies. I am not sorry, either. Your own faulty logic works against the N.O. Mass as well. Too bad you didn’t notice that.
You never responded to my message to you dated July 26 at 5:38 pm. I think we need to discuss the civility issue a little further.
I accidentally gave Jon a thumbs up July 26 at 5:45 pm and did not mean to do so.
I say, “Don’t” (and I’d throw in “Anne TE” into the mix there) does need to put things in proper perspective. If there’s anyone who is being persecuted, it’s Pope Francis by the exclusive TLM-crowd who are persecuting him for preserving the unity of the Church. If there is anyone who is being dishonest and belligerent, it’s the cacophony of people who exclusively go to the TLM and who disrespect not only the Pope but also the Ordinary Form. They’re being belligerent by unjustly condemning Pope Francis and his motu propio. Plus, many of them are now lying because they’re essentially denying they were divisive in the first place and that they never denied Vatican II. They have put on this false demeanor that they are the “persecuted ones.” That’s bunk. Bunk. Popes John Paul II and Benedict have accommodated them, as Francis pointed out. What did they do with that accommodation? They abused it.
One can therefore say that they (the TLM-only crowd) have brought all of this upon themselves. I’ve been warning them for years in this blog about their divisive attitudes, their dissent, and their irreverence. They didn’t listen to folks like me. And so this has been a day of reckoning for them. And they’re not coping well (just read “Don’t’s” comments up there for instance).
Well, with this motu propio, the Pope has identified a huge problem in the Church and he acted swiftly: the cancer was fast-growing and it was lethal to the unity and life of the Body of Christ. Some folks (like Don’t) instead of using this time to do penance and to admit their faults and divisiveness, choose instead to wallow in imagined “outrages” such as Pope Francis “persecuting” them (he didn’t) or (more laughably) my “belligerence”. Honestly folks, Peter has spoken, through Francis. It will benefit your souls to listen to him.
When you are reading one of jon’s comments, the word divisive is a code word for those who are appalled by the heresy and various scandals that are taking place in the Church. Many Bishops allow priests to contradict the Church’s teachings in their sermons and punish Priests who teach the Church’s teachings. Those who object to such a discipline policy that is in favor of contradicting the Church’s teachings are said to be divisive and disrespecting the Bishop. We have a clergy that are very often involved in sex scandals. We have entire sections of the Church ignoring the Vatican and blessing the pretend marriages of homosexuals. When Catholics try flee from occasions of sin that are connected with the N.O. Mass, the Pope says that they foment division in the Church if they attend a Latin Mass. jon here is expressing glee over the Pope’s authoritarian cracking down on Catholics who are trying to escape a culture of scandal that they find connected to the local N.O. parish. jon here is acting as a partisan of prey, pay, and obey Catholicism. When the N.O. Mass is used to cause scandal and division in the Church, the Pope does not ban the N.O. Mass. jon has to be lying about the reason that the Latin Mass is being pushed out of the Church.
What jon makes clear in his comment is that he wishes for a group of Catholics that he has disagreements with to be punished and silenced. At a time when there is a huge problem of heresy and scandals in the Church, the Pope is not punishing those who preach heresy and cause scandals. The Pope is punishing those who are trying to flee from the heresies and scandals at their local parish to a reverent faith community that worships at the Latin Mass. If the Pope was really concerned about division in the Church, he would not turn a blind eye to the divisions that are caused by those who celebrate the N.O. Mass. The Church is now looking like a two tiered system where you have permission to do what you want if you attend the N.O. Mass, but if you attend the Latin Mass, you get crushed if someone on the Internet thinks that one person who attended the Latin Mass somewhere in the world is divisive.
“Don’t” has managed to blame everyone else except the people who are most responsible for the Pope’s writing of the motu propio, namely those who seek to divide the Church among the exclusive TLM goers.
Plus I am not at all jubilant over what’s going on. I go to both the EF and the OF and I love both. I have been warning people here for years in strong terms and pointedly about their divisiveness and denigration of the Ordinary Form and of the Pope. Instead of listening they mock and deride and call me falsely all sorts of things. Well folks especially “Don’t” this is all your doing. My strong words over the years are vindicated. Sadly.
I have to agree with jon that many of the people who attack the Church here are attendees of the TLM. Not all of them are Catholics who attend the TLM in union with the Church. CCD has had sedevacantists, sedeprivationists, schismatics, who attend illicit Masses said by priests who have left the Church. So, of course they attack the Mass and the Church and believe they are attending the true church.
I also don’t know that people who post comments on a website like this are representative of the people who attend the licit TLMs in the Church..
What I have noticed, though, is that error spreads. And just like the Protestants, the wandered priests and their flock go further and further astray. We are just at the beginning of this (50 years in terms of heresy is not long). Martin Luther believed in the Real Presence. He believed in Mary’s intercession. He told his mother not to leave the Church.
Individuals realize their error and return so it is important to keep stating that not believing in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is heretical. We just have to keep praying for the souls who are being misled.
I fully agree that there are a large number of SSPX members who comment here. I know this both from past experience as well as from the “votes “ that I get. Those comments that talk up FSSP and simultaneously talk down SSPX have gotten me the largest number of negative votes ever here. I’ve also asked [and even begged] SSPX to return to full communion with the Church.
But there’s another important issue here: jon, please respond to my message dated July 26 at 5:38 pm. We need to continue our discussion.
All jon here shows is a willingness go after people who attend an older form of the Mass where more reverence is shown for the Lord as if showing reverence for the Lord is a sin. jon expressed contempt for those who are not satisfied with giving the Lord their God the ordinary form of worship but want to go the extra mile to show more love for the Lord their God when they worship him. So now wanting to give the best you can when you worship the Lord your God is now a cause of scandal in the Church, but blessing homosexual pretend marriages is not. It is looking like the Church has rejected God.
Also, jon advocates that a reverent form of worshiping God should be taken away from people because he says they have divisive attitudes that he does not agree with. Can jon explain how depriving people of the means of receiving grace through the Sacraments will improve any bad dispositions that they have? Does jon expect faithful Catholics who have the Latin Mass taken away from them to start attending N.O. Masses where the Priest preaches in his homily that fornication is not a sin, abortion is not a sin, pornography is not a sin, sodomy is not a sin, lying is not a sin, stealing is not a sin, or contraception is not a sin? Does jon expect faithful Catholics who have the Latin Mass taken away from them to start attending Masses that cause its participants to commit a mortal sin? The name of this web page is about the unintended consequences of traditionis custodes. What I am leading to is consequences of traditionis custodes that might not be unintended by our religious leaders. The massive exodus of those who are tired of the scandals. The only Catholics that will be left behind will be those who do not want to be divisive. Once that has happened, the religious leaders no longer have to pretend that they live as the Church says that we should live.
Poor “Don’t” and poor “Seitz”. I think, because they (especially “Don’t”) didn’t seem to have read anything I had written above, the only appropriate thing for me to write is that I urge both of them to read all that I wrote earlier. This is because in their latest comments both of them are mentioning things I never even mentioned. And that is not conducive to a good discussion. So, folks, as they say in the British House of Commons, “I refer you to the reply I made some moments ago.” Cheerio!
Don’t Touch My Booty,
It’s occurred to me that jon isn’t going to just come and go, so I’ve decided that it’s time to have a discussion about the proper ways to engage people in the public forum. Unfortunately, he seemed to have checked out of my discussion with him, so it looks like I’m going to have to start searching him out.
Truth be told, I wasn’t trying to win a debate with him (above): I just want him to become a productive member of this forum.
I prefer that we continue our discussion where we left off at my post of July 26 at 5:38 pm. However, we can stay here if you prefer.
I’ve noticed that your replies to people typically involve accusations [often falsely] and unpleasant remarks. Wouldn’t it be better to stay focused on the argument instead of the person?
Why do you always accuse people of things?
Mr. Seitz, I appreciate your efforts to promote civility and decorum on this website. I am afraid that your message will fall on deaf ears. I surmise that jon’s deportment is not a result of emotional and developmental immaturity. I surmise that jon’s deportment is a result of a preconceived communications strategy. I also surmise that it is part of his strategy to stay away from the discussion of certain things.
This is why we want the anonymous default.
Don’t Touch My Booty,
Your idea had occurred to me, but I decided to give jon the benefit of the doubt. Some people have been so emotionally abused or are so unskilled in debate that they simply don’t have the equipment to engage civilly.
On the other hand, he must know that his method of arguing is ineffective and unpersuasive. Instead of providing light and insight, he mere pollutes every conversation he touches.
In this regard, there have been articles that the Chinese have paid millions of people small sums of money to troll the internet. It’s plausible that other countries and interest groups also pay trolls to pollute the political atmosphere.
You don’t really understand irony and sarcasm.
Sarcasm is the language of the devil.
While in Argentina, was Cardinal Bergoglio himself obedient to Pope Benedict’s Summorum Pontificum?
That is my own “unanswered question” right now.
Some reports say that SP was “fought and trampled on” in Buenos Aires, and according to one journalist, Cardinal Bergoglio was a “sworn enemy of the Traditional Mass.” Some even called Cardinal Bergoglio “a plague of Egypt for the Argentine church” (“una plaga de Egipto para la Iglesia argentina”).
People should trust God always and everywhere. Whatever happens in your diocese, pray and trust God. God knows everything. God knows the future and he knows what will help you get to Heaven and what will harm you and your soul.
Just trust Him. He is there at both forms of the Mass. He wants you to love Him for Him not because you have a great experience at Mass.
Hard to trust God when life is so crappy for Catholics.
I’m sorry that you are so sad and defeated.
Do you want to talk about it?
I have one more day here.
After that they are rejecting me.
I don’t blame God.
I take it as a sign that God wants me to move on.
But enough about me…
Tell us all about what is troubling you.
Pachamama Papa is cruel to the weak in his flock. Yet the Traditional Catholics already have brought up lathe numbers of young children in the Mass of the Ages. The Novus World Ordus of the United Nations and Davos must fear terribly the Mass of the Saints.