Father Joseph Illo, pastor of Star of the Sea church in San Francisco, gave a 14-minute homily on Sunday, August 28.
Father Illo made note that the 28th was the anniversary of St. Augustine’s death. And the day before had been the feast of Augustine’s mother, St. Monica.
“She prayed for him, she wept for him. He tried to escape her. He lied to her at one point…. A good bishop told her, ‘It cannot be that the son of so many tears would perish.’ And in fact he did convert in the year 387….
“Rome was sacked in 410. Augustine saw Western Civilization collapsing around him…. He looked at history as an old man and said nothing will last but the word of God. I mention this because it’s very important to know history. We live in a time that rejects history, that anything before 1970 is dismissed….
“Tradition is essential to the human race and to the Church….
“We’re probably the most traditional parish is San Francisco. We offer Mass in the modern and traditional forms
“Tradition is essentially good. But tradition can devolve into traditionalism. Traditionalism is a deformation. A distrust of human reason and any historical development. It was condemned by the First Vatican Council.
“St. Augustine developed many doctrines – the doctrine of original sin, the Holy Trinity, free will, just war. Applying human reason to Divine Revelation.
“Thomas Aquinas developed doctrines, transubstantiation, for example. Applying Aristotelian metaphysics to the teachings of Jesus in the Bible.
“Traditionalists rejected Augustine and Aquinas.
“Let’s consider our own situation. The Vatican seems to be rejecting the traditional form of the Mass.
“We do both forms ad orientem, facing the altar.
15-second excerpt:
“We try to avoid both traditionalism – which rejects change and development – but also rejecting progressivism, which rejects tradition and history.”
He shouldn’t be offering the TLM. It’s passe. Pope Francis has said no more TLM. Time to end it. It should not be promoted. It should be discontinued or beginning to be phased out.
Pope Francis did not say no more TLM.
Nope. Pope Francis will soon be phased out of history. And next, the Pope’s –and your– ideas will be phased out, passe. The next pope will have his own ideas. You have no theological training, and no respect at all, for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It is ancient and Eternal.
phased out, please explain to us TLM morons the meaning of “passe”. I have clothes in my closet that are “passe”, but eventually, what is old will become new again. Trust me,sooner or later the TLM will come back like a roaring lion.
Passe doesn’t even spell it correctly. Should be passé.
OK I’ll bite. How do things get phased out of history?
Good homily but a little cringy.
Ad Orientem means facing the east; not facing the altar. Whether a priest stands in front of the altar or behind, he is always facing the altar.
The traditionalists and the progressivists I know both do not trust the Church. Same error, different issues. Nor do they have the humility to submit to the Church.
Ad orientem: Facing East, and facing God, is what Fr. Illo meant– this is actually correct. Not the Modernists facing the people. Fr. Illo is correct. So is his Archbishop, who believes as he does. To face the people is a radical (and “ecumenicalized”) new change, in the long centuries of history of the Mass, and has only been done since the day the New Mass was first instituted, in 1969. Always face God. Christians have an ancient religious tradition of facing God and East, with their altars in their churches traditionally built that way. Early Christians also were originally awaiting the Second Coming of Christ. It is said that Christ will “come from the East” at His Second Coming– and then, there will be no more need for Mass. His work on earth will be done. There are also other traditional churches that do the same thing– for example, the Anglicans/Episcopalians.
The early church celebrated versus populum. So the Novus Ordo restores the ancient practice. Look it up in Josef Jungmann’s Mass of the Roman Rite.
You do not understand. The Protestants abandoned the Catholic Mass, and did not believe in it, nor accept the Catholic Doctrine of the Eucharist. In the early years of Christianity, worship was not yet codified and set. Early Christians desired to worship and pray facing East– ad orientem– that was very important to them, from their earliest days. They varied, however, in the early years of worship. Finally, in 375-80 A.D., a rule was made, that churches all must be built with the altar, apse and sacristies at the East end. There was variation for awhile, of the priest facing either ad orientem or versus populum, but by the 8th or 9th century A.D., it became a uniform practice for the priest to always face ad orienten, together with the worshipers, at Mass. All were to worship God facing East– anticipating Christ’s glorious return someday, like the Rising Sun in the East.
The ancient ad orientem tradition means that all are facing East, together, in worship of God, at Mass– both the priest and the people are facing East, and facing God. Christ is said to arise from the East, when He cones again in all His Glory, at the Second Coming. And then, the work of Christ on earth will be done– and there will be no more Mass. The work will be completed.
Pope Francis has taught that time is greater than space. A deduction from that is that the direction you face when praying is unimportant. Besides, the priest is always facing the Lord on the altar. The tabernacle is just a fridge, as it were, where the leftovers are kept for use at a later Mass. The ideal and norm in all recent liturgical directives is that enough hosts should be consecrated at Mass so that the faithful may receive Communion from the freshly consecrated hosts, without having to go to the fridge/tabernacle.
Commemter, I was merely stating some facts of Church history. After that, everyone has their own opinions. I think that the shallow, modern “Throw-Away” culture, cut off deliberately from the past, is just terrible. I think it is a good thing, to know all about and to appreciate our Church’s history and sacred traditions. We have over 2,000 years of history, and sacred traditions– which extends even further back in time, Biblically, thousands of years. All of this is certainly not a thing to “Throw-Away.” The promise of Christ being sent to earth was prophesied thousands of years ago. His coming was not built upon a bunch of modernist-style, immature, shallow, meaningless, Godless, Tradition-less, ignorant 1960s liberal-leftist, rebellious youth culture. Christ was a Jew, placed squarely within the context of His ancient, Biblical, Jewish religion, very strong with traditions, and a fantastic sacred heritage.
I think all of us should learn Church history and as much about the sacraments, the moral law, prayer and the Faith as we possibly can.
There is no direction that you can face that does not face God. At Mass or anywhere else.
St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome, even before the Second Vatican Council, had an unusual design which made it impractical to face the apse (the dome underneath where the altar is located) while celebrating Mass. First, St. Peter’s was built facing West. So, one had to turn to the doors of the church in order to face east. (Which makes Mass said on the main altar versus populum and ad orientem.) Second, in order for the altar to be directly above the tomb of St. Peter, it had to be built free standing and there no room in the front of it to say Mass facing the apse because of the confessio which is an open area above St. Peter’s tomb. However, the congregation in the ancient church would still face the same direction as the priest while he celebrated Mass. In other words, they would be facing east away from the altar. So, even though the priest would be facing the people, the emphasis was still on facing a common direction in prayer. Even today, there are plenty of side altars in these basilicas where Mass can only be celebrated ad orientem.
http://latinmasstrenton.org/lmt/Q%26A/Priest%20Facing%20the%20Altar%20%28Ad%20Orientem%29/Wasn%27t%20Mass%20always%20celebrated%20facing%20the%20people%20in%20Rome%3F.html/_top
Neither the ordinary form or the extraordinary form of the Roman Rite specify which direction the priest should face.
I remember a lady saying to my pastor “I liked it better when the priest turned away from the people. It looked like he was talking to God.”
My pastor responded “God is in those people.”
If only modernist priests face the people, what about every basilica in Rome built after Trent in which it is IMPOSSIBLE to not face the people without falling into a crypt. In the case of St Peter’s, the Pope would fall right into the burial spot of St Peter himself. Have Popes and Cardinals for centuries been modernists?
The eastern gate of the Temple was reserved for the Messiah as the Old Testament prophecy was that the Messiah would come through the eastern gate. On Palm Sunday, the Lord Jesus Christ DID come through the gate called Beautiful, the eastern gate of the temple area.
When the Virgin Mary appeared to the children of Fatima, it said that she always appeared from the east.
Actually Father Illo faced North when I went to mass there a few weeks ago.
If Fr. Illo was facing the Lord Jesus Christ over the altar, he was still facing liturgical east though not literal east as the Lord Jesus Christ is called “the Son of God” and also “the Sun of God, the Light of the World”, so even if he was not facing literal east, he was facing liturgical east. That is what he meant when he said the priests face “ad orientem (to the east)” at both the older and the newer masses. He meant that both the priests and people face together Christ over the altar at all the masses (Ordinary and Extraordinary).
Anne TE the point is that he is not facing East as he claims. Even in those Roman basilicas including St. Peter’s built with the facade being on the eastern side, the priest does face east and faces the people. Folks make a whole lot of whoihoo about direction, yet they fail to follow their own doctrines consistently. At Father illos church he is no more facing ad orientmum when he turns his back to the people than when he turns his face to them. As to facing the Lord, if he followed Vatican ii, the tabernacle would be in a place of reverence but not in the chancel, as those ancient Churches once did. It is theologically confusing to the people to have the entire Eucharistic prayer directed to the Father when he is facing The Son.
Fr. Illo explains that quite clearly from 8:18 minutes into the video to the end. If you listen to that part of the video again, you will understand what I wrote in my previous post.
Not quite. If he can symbolically face east by facing north, then he can just as easily symbolically face east by facing south. So he’s not following some middle of the road theology, but a muddle the road fanaticism about the way things once were in certain times and certain places.
It does not matter. You just said that.
The point Archbishop Cordileone, Cardinal Sarah and many, many others are making is that when the priest faces the people during certain parts of the mass (when talking to God), it makes him the focus of the mass and a distraction; whereas in the older Latin mass the priest faces Christ over the altar when talking to God and turns toward the people when talking to them, which is more Christ centered. I find that quite true in my experience. I much prefer the Extraordinary Mass, or masses of the Anglicanorum Coetibus Society (includes ancient Sarum).
That is just how I feel.
Wait a minute. When the priest stands behind the altar, I can see Jesus in the Holy Eucharist. How do you see Him if the priest’s body is blocking the view?
You can’t see Jesus. You see the appearances of bread. The substance is hidden; it can’t be seen. Again, to all you Trads: you’re not looking at Jesus when you adore a consecrated host. You’re looking at something that veils his presence.
He kneels down Immediately after the Consecration in adoration and lefts the Sacred Host for all to see it as the kneeling altar server lefts the back of the priest’s vestments. Most of the people are kneeling already and say certain prayers of adoration, unless they cannot kneel because of disability or old age.
To Are you? if I am looking a something that veils His Presence then I am looking at Him, obviously. And I am looking at Him in the people too. And in the priest. And hearing Him in the Word.
Don’t you do Adoration?
Thank you for your answer.
Correction: the priests “lifts” the Host up, not “lefts”.
Nah, the 1969 mass is stuck in the Seventies. It’s time to scrap it and return to where it went off the rails.
Trads are dissidents and they don’t even realize it.
They brag about it.
I think “passe” is correct. I don’t know how to put that little accent above the letter “e”. It’s not on my keyboard. But anyway “passe” means outmoded, out of date. Vatican II, if you recall, taught that the TLM should be replaced with a new, updated version of the Mass. That’s what the Novus Ordo is. So the TLM is indeed outmoded and out of date. Pope Francis and Cardinal Roche have both said that the liturgical reform is irreversible. There’s no going back to the pre-Vatican II Mass. So those parishes that celebrate the TLM are clinging to something that has been replaced. Just accept Mass 2.0. And when Mass 3.0 comes, we’ll accept that too.
The Catholic Church does not operate by your ridiculous ideas. The 1500+ years old ancient Latin Mass, codified by Pope St. Gregory I the Great (who reigned 590-604 A.D.) has its roots in the original Mass of the Apostles. The New Mass of 1969, 53 years ago, does not. It is a new type of Mass, never seen before.
It is not a new Mass. it is the same Mass. It has its roots at the Last Supper. It is the same rite.
The New Mass is a Mass, but with a very different focus, and its written form is totally different in your Missal, than the old Latin Mass– see for yourself. It is not a vernacular translation of the old Latin Mass, it has a very different form. Similar to comparing the New Mass to the Byzantine Rite Mass, they are not at all alike– but both are valid Masses.
It does not have a different focus. It is the Sacrifice of Calvary renewed. It is an offering to the Father by the Son and the members of His Body to give glory to the Lord, to thank him for his blessings, to ask pardon for sins and to beseech His help. (In Him, with Him and through Him.)
I do think that it has a different ambience.
If you have people at the Latin Mass, sitting there thinking how much better they are than the rest of People of God or that their worship is better than other peoples, God is not pleased. And it does not please Him to have lies told about His Holy Mass. (Not you-others.)
Does God care how many times you say “Lord have mercy”?
Maybe He likes the Old Testament reading. That is His Word.
I like the prayers from the 1962 Missal and I like the ones in the 2011 Missal. I assume that God does, too.
You may like one better than the other. You should not be attending the one that pleases you. You should pray over God’s Will. Generally, His Will is for you to attend the parish that you are geographically assigned to unless you get permission from your pastor to attend elsewhere. (No one even thinks of that anymore.)
No. The 1969 Novus Ordo Missae has a very different text, many traditional Catholic elements are stripped from it. The Sacrificial aspect is downplayed– that is a well-known criticism of the text of the New Mass. And no, any fool who considers themselves “superior” because of Mass attendance, has no respect for God. No doubt, such fools are of the more recently-born, smart-aleck, “know-it-all,” kid generation. They were badly catechized, not taught respect for God– nor for adults. And no, geographical boundaries are no longer required, for parish registration. That is totally ridiculous. Don’t be a smart-aleck fool — get off your “high-horse” about “God’s Will.” And if you are married and have children– be real careful where you take your kids to Mass! That is a big responsibility! Avoid immoral priests who dissent ftom Church teaching on Catholic Marriage, and on abortion– for starters!
I do not know any priests who dissent from any Catholic teaching.
Seeking God’s will is being on a high horse?
It is basic Christianity.
The poster was very rude to tell another Catholic adult to “ask God’s Will” before attending a Mass they have chosen to attend– to question their good judgment, is arrogant and rude. There are a huge number of Catholic priests and prelates who publicly dissent from Catholic teaching– particularly, on birth control, abortion, women’s ordination, gay unions and gay “marriage,” Communion for divorced and re-married Catholics without annulments, Communion for non-Catholics, Communion for bad Catholic politicians like Biden and Pelosi– and more. I am sure you have seen some of them, and have heard about a great many of them– especially if you read news stories on this website often!
Seeking God’s will and reminding people that we are supposed to is not rude.
Public dissent is very rare. That is why it makes the news.
It might be a good excuse to go to a different Mass but it is still just an excuse. God put you there for a reason. Pray for fortitude.
fortitude, mind your own business. Seeking God’s Will is a personal matter. Do that for yourself.
The Catholic Church does not operate by your ridiculous ideas. The 1500+ years old ancient Latin Mass, codified by Pope St. Gregory I the Great (who reigned 590-604 A.D.) has its roots in the original Mass of the Apostles. The New Mass of 1969, 53 years ago, does not. It is a new type of Mass, never seen before.The Tridentine Latin Mass is very great, and is of tremendous historical significance.
Pope Benedict, when he was in office, said that the Extraordinary Mass (Traditional Mass) was never abrogated, and that something that was considered so holy by past popes and saints could not just be totally dumped. If you get rid of 2000 years of Church history, and yes there were minor changes over the years, you take away the foundation for the new — no continuity.
Even traditionalists acknowledge the the Tridentine Rite is not the original Mass in the Church. So the ordinary form is not 2.0. The Last Supper is the first Mass. There are very few writings that tell us how Mass was said in the early centuries of the Church. It was celebrated in Greek, the common language of the time. The Tridentine Mass dates from 1570 AD.
The Mass itself does not change, but the Missal does. There are differences in the two forms but they are the same Rite. God did not give us Holy Mass for people to fight over. The differences in the Mass do not change the grace received (that depends on the disposition of the recipient) or the glory given to God. Christ is the great High Priest who resides over every Mass.
They are the same rite when the rubrics are kept, and there are plenty of writings in the older missals, Church Fathers and so forth that tell us how the Mass was said and developed in early Christianity. Problems arise when innovations are brought into the newer mass that have nothing to do with the sacredness of the mass. Hand holding during the Our Father was brought into the Latin masses from Protestantism and the Twelve Step Programs, none of the older rites, whether Latin, Greek, etc., did that. Most still do not/.
I do not like the hand holding but it does not change the Mass.
No innovation no matter how lame invalidates the Mass.
It is a distraction and something to offer up.
I did not say it invalidated the mass. It just seems silly to me for those who bring in Protestant innovations to call those who do not heretics and schismatics as some do. If people refuse to do it, that does not make them a heretic nor a schismatic. Even in the Twelve Step programs it is voluntary.
On the other hand, if the priest is teaching actual heresy or desecrating the mass, such as advocating “marriages” between people of the same sex or riding in on a skateboard, there is no way I am sticking about for such a debacle.
I don’t recall anyone saying that if you don’t hold hands at the Lord’s Prayer that you are a heretic or schismatic. Did I miss that somewhere?
I thought it came from Kindergarten. It is a gesture anticipating Communion. It is not necessary for you to do it even if it is a parish who does it. Since COVID, I don’t know if any parish does it.
Heretics are people who after baptism and correction, persist in a belief that is contrary to the Faith.
Schislmatics are heretics whose error is that they do not believe in the One Holy Catholic Church, in a particular: they do not submit to the Pope and/or they refuse to worship with the Church.
People who refuse to attend Mass in a Catholic Church even if they are attending an invalid Mass elsewhere are not worshipping in the Church. Imagine being so arrogant, that you would refuse to attend the holiest thing on earth.
Well, when some Catholic priest does the mass so flippantly, as one did, that he blesses the people with an upside-down guitar, I have a hard believing he is serious about anything, let alone the consecration. I won’t go to one of those masses either no matter what anyone calls me.
Correction to my last post, second line: “I have a hard time believing ,,,,”
Priests fall for temptations and if you are really a traditional Catholic, you know that they are tempted more often and more severely than lay people. Pray for them.
I may have wrote invalid, but I meant illicit.
The Latin Mass at Star of the Sea is valid and licit.
Every Mass said by a validly ordained priest is valid even if the priest is suspended.
I apologize for the mistake. if I made it (I can’t see yet.)
No one on this website that I have seen in over a decade of reading this site and its comments has ever called anyone a heretic or schismatic for refusing to hold hands during the Our Father.
We have Catholics who attend the Latin Mass. We have Catholic who attend SSPX. There used to be a person who attended a sedeprivationist chapel who commented here. There could be others. There are people who attend sedevacantist chapels here.
Over the last 15 years online, I have seen the errors of the sedevacantists and sedeprivationists seep into the posts of those who attend licit Latin Masses.
If you refer to the Mass as the Novus Ordo, you have been influenced by them.
If you think Protestants wrote the Mass, or that Bugnini was a Mason or that Vatican II changed the Church, you have been influence by them.
If you think the Mass is invalid in any way or you wonder if your priest is doing what the Church intends when he consecrates the Host, you have been influenced by them.
There are other lies,, errors, etc that have creeped in. Constant vigilance is necessary.
Over the last 2 years I have seen the errors of the modernist that consider James Martin a holy priest and the homo hierarchy as the work of the Holy Ghost.
If you think clown masses, brass bands and felt banners are a good thing you have been influenced by modernists
If you deny the Church been damaged since Vatican 2 you have been influenced by modernists
If you think Parish Council Karens with their feminist outlook is a good thing you have been influenced by modernists
If you think Sacristy Susan’s handing out the Blessed Sacrament like Pringles potato chips is just and holy you have been influenced by modernists
If you see the utter physical destruction of countless parishes is the work of the Holy Ghost you have been influenced by modernists
If you see the self demolition of the Church as traditionalist conspiracy theory you have been influenced by modernists
If you think the Church is not in crisis, you have been influenced by modernists
There are countless other evils that have crept into the Church; stay angry, expose the frauds for that they are
Do you see the difference between the first post and your post?
We have all been influenced by many heresies.
That is why you need to stay vigilant.
And you just told people to do something that the Lord Himself said not to do. (Anger is one of the seven deadly sins.)
People need to learn Catholicism and keep learning.
Righteous anger, or just anger– is not a sin. The Lord Himself exhibited just anger on a number of occasions– such as, picking up a big whip, and driving the money changers out of God’s holy temple. And that is exactly what needs to be done, in today’s Church.
Our Lord Himself got angry.. … anger is weapon and tool to be used against modernist filth
bohemond, you have only been Catholic 2 years? The devil comes for people very hard when they start turning to the Lord.
One of his biggest tricks is to exaggerate the faults of others and to cause you to think you are better than they. Pride and anger are huge stumbling blocks.
What do you think modernism is?
When I first came into the Church, I was beset by distrust, too. At first I trusted nothing that came after Vatican II. I did not even trust the Pope. The Lord sent correction.
Read the Bible, pray the rosary, learn what modernism is, learn what heresy is.
The so-called crisis in the Catholic Church now is from the same source(s) that it always comes from. You must believe in God and trust Him completely.
You cannot comprehend what bohemond is saying. So stop your useless trolling. And no,
bohemond did not say he is a recent Catholic convert of two years.
No I have been on this site for about 2 years.. been a Catholic my entire life reverted back to the Faith because of the old Mass. (TLM) Modernism as stated by Piux X is the Synthesis of Heresies . Please dont preach to me, its tiresome, I a struggling sinner but I am know I am lot better than the liberals in the Church who want to make sins, sacraments. I trust 2 people I am one and you are not the other. Anger is tool and weapon to be used against modernist thugs, ala in the spirit of Inquisition when the Church recognized her enemies and dealt with them accordingly. Now we just songs like all will be well when it clearly is not. Anger must used to purify the Church of the homo-heretics now in operational control. Tell me how did clearly wicked man like Rembert Weakland get public funeral this past week, how do men like McElroy get raised to that of Cardinal, why because evil goes unanswered when in reality these should have been taken out by the laity. When every last homo-heretic is jailed or dead I will start trusting the hierarchy again
I will no longer try to help you at your request.
Please do not preach to me…. We trust in God, but must take direct action… or we lose to men like McElroy and Cuspich
bohemond,
You might not know: there is a Syllabus of Errors by Pope Pius IX
https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9syll.htm
God bless you.