The following comes from an article written by Father Regis Scanlon, originally published in Homeletic & Pastoral Review in August and re-printed in Crisis magazine on September 10.
In 2002, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops commissioned a 1.8 million dollar study, popularly known as the “John Jay study,” to uncover the patterns and causes of the sex abuse crisis since 1950. The National Review Board—the entity designated to implement the study—gave the first John Jay report in 2004. In this report, which describes the “Nature and Scope” of clergy sexual abuse, the board pointed out that more than 80 percent of the victims were teenage boys and young men.
This conclusion, in itself, should have been a solid roadmap for truly correcting the sex abuse problem.
Indeed, the bishops quickly responded. They issued guidelines for tough diocesan policies, such as the immediate reporting of abuse to civil authorities, and better oversight of children’s safety.
However, despite those good reforms, clergy with sexual abuse histories were still active in public Church ministry. In early 2011, the Archdiocese of Philadelphia revealed it was involved in yet another major “roundup” of sex abuse cases, a majority of them (82%) involving the original category of identified victims—male teens and young men.
Also in 2011, the Vatican called on bishops and local dioceses to develop comprehensive plans to stop sex abuse. It urged “an even greater importance in assuring a proper discernment of vocations.” Clearly, the Vatican still sees a need to encourage more thoroughness when screening priesthood candidates….
At the very least, it’s a cop-out to blame the crisis on the “field” of victims, and the implication is potentially dangerous: It suggests that future crises could be avoided if the Church bans “access to boys.” This inevitably would include banning: priests from all-male high schools; priestly vocation retreats; and any gathering designed to specifically encourage young men in the pursuit of a Christian way of life. These kinds of gatherings have raised generations of good Catholic men for centuries—and, rest assured, morally strong and healthy priests have never had any interest in sexually stalking young men at these gatherings….
In the John Jay report issued in 2011, homosexuality was definitively discounted as an issue. The study cited “organizational” (and institutional) causes among the explanations for the sex abuse crisis. It concluded that perhaps the real causes are the result of “certain vulnerabilities” accompanied by “opportunities to abuse,” as in “access to boys.”
The second report did not suggest screening anyone from the seminary. Rather, the “Conclusions and Recommendations” suggested that the solution lay in “education,” “situational prevention models,” and “oversight and accountability.” The report stated: “By regularly surveying priests, administrative staff, and parishioners about their responses to, and satisfaction with, the priests with whom they have contact, dioceses are more likely to be alerted to questionable behavior that might have been undetected in the past.”
In effect, now all priests will be considered guilty until proven innocent! More insidiously, the report calls for closer surveillance or “oversight” of the activities of all priests. According to a July 22, 2011 article in the National Catholic Reporter, this means “ensuring at least one adult is present whenever clergy and children (young men) are together.” Big Brother, welcome to the Church….
To read entire article, click here.
As I suspected, the John Jay Report was controlled by homosexuals and feminists. If you remove priests from boys gatherings, then guess who is left to teach, train and administrate the gatherings? Right, women. This expose of the Bishops’ attempt to pull the wool over the eyes of the world of moral people is one more look at how unfathomable the corruption among the bishops. The Pope has drawn the line in the sand for them … become holy. Not much response from anything I’ve seen … and so do we expect the Pope to forget what he said? What do the bishops who refuse to become holy expect to happen down the line? God will not be mocked … but these evil men do not care about God. It will be exciting to see God clean house.
You forgot to mention the communists and the satanists. Muslims, too!
The initial John Jay report said that 85% of the sexual abuse attacks by priests were against adolescent boys, that’s homosexuality. Then the bishops spent $1.8 million last year to have John Jay whitewash their original report. Many bishops jumped all over the $1.8 million whitewash pointing out “see, it was not homosexuality”. Has anyone else noticed on CCD how most bishops are so arrogantly pompous that they will never humbly just hang their collective heads and admit that they screwed up and will mend their ways. Most bishops will make pronouncements to support their agendas, even with no basis in authentic Church teaching, and they will just plain not back down. $1.8 million to cover up their sexual abuses? No problem, just chump change to these elite bishops!
I have just read more about Bella Dodd’s warnings to the Church. Many of those Communist and sympathizers she recruited to the seminarys were even then on their way or had already become bishops. Their purpose was to lie low, act like orthodox priests until they got into a position of real power.
She also stated that the organizations such as “The Holy Name Society” had been infiltrated by men of high positions, especially Irish men. These men and women were called by their comrades “Sleepers”! Here I would like to point out that “Justice” William Brennan, who many say was the real author of Roe vs. Wade was a member of the, you guessed it, the Holy Name Society!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Kenneth – And now that they are bishops they also will tell you that they are “orthodox”. Remember that particular bishop that you talked to a couple years ago outside of the LA religious? conference who proclaimed to you that he was “orthodox”. RIGHT!
When I was a kid back in the 40-50s, the Holy Name Society, at least on the East Coast, was the men’s club in nearly every parish. The women had the Sodality and the Ladies of St. Anne. It was the established men’s organization in the Church. Some parishes also had the Knights of Columbus. They were not an underground group.
BO – Kenneth never said that the HNS was an underground group. He said they were “infiltrated”.
When I read this article, all I can think of is the thick web of sin and distortion of our humanity everywhere. It is enough to make a person want to become a hermit. What with worldwide abortion, rampant pedophilia and abuse of the young, drug abuse, homosexuality, etc. and many of these problems affecting those within our Catholic Church, It begs the question, where do we go Lord? We are suffocating Lord, we are tired Lord, who do we trust Lord? I know Lord that You promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against Your Church, guess I am getting weary, especially when I think of these secret atrocities going on behind closed doors. You told Sr. Faustina to put at the bottom of the Divine Mercy picture, “Jesus I Trust in You.” You Lord, seem these days to be the only one I can really trust. Help me to persevere.
Help ME to persevere.
Carolyn I know how you feel…the word hermit has come to thought many times in my life too but like Gordon Campbell has posted…I often pray for fortitude, to persevere and to endure….I think that we need a break from all this negative stuff and take time to nurture and find a balance to help us keep our sanity. Christ be with us all always….He is and Christ help us to really know this…
Father Scanlon’s entire article is well worth reading. His self-restraint is remarkable to me. How can he write so calmly about this? Yet, what he does write is totally correct, and I appreciate his moral courage. Where, however, is the moral outrage? If our bishops were truly shepherds, an article like Father Scanlon’s would be unnecessary because they would have addressed the problem of homosexual clergy squarely. Many of our bishops deserve–and for their own salvation need–the sharpest of public rebukes for their Judas-like betrayal of the Faith and the Faithful. On the whole, they are a disgust.
Paul Joseph,
I have tried to tell some of them what you suggest, especially on the lack of enforcement of Canon 915. Their responses would make you disgusted. If I had not known and served real Shepherds as priests and bishops, I would be even more dismayed. Go to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and pray, especially Her Rosary.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Call the cops,stupid.
See a crime,drop a dime!!!!!!!!
Larry,
What is that supposed to mean?
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Mr. Fisher yes I too have wondered? after I laughed because It came across kinda silly…
Maybe this is a wake up call for married clergy-like the Anglicans being ordained .
It wont solve the problem of the past sexual abuse, but may help the future of the Catholic Church to advance in holiness.
When we look back at the priests who have left the priesthood to become married-they too have had instincts other than to keep their celibate vows.
Oh- I can see the arms reaching up in horror now at the very mention of sexual intercourse and married priests.celebrating Holy Mass But we have them in the church already.
And as long as they are aware of their responsibilities and duties on Holy Mothers Church on contraception I believe it would help to get rid of the stigma that most priest suffer from the accusation that they may be child abusers too!!.
I know there is sexual abuse amongst married priests in the Anglican Church-but not the flow as in the R C church
I don’t believe that priests once taking their vows can be married..
It would be a great advantage too towards the promoting and teaching of Natural Family Planning
Then the Sacrament of Matrimony and the Eucharist would be moving towards a greater understanding.
.
“they too have instincts other than to keep their vows celibate.”
“I believe it would get rid of the stigma that most priests suffer from the accusation that they may be child abusers too!”
Mary Helena Gamble,
It is well known that married men are often the perpetrators of rape, incest and other sexual crimes. I see that you have an agenda for the day. May we help you. MHG, You will advance in holiness when you strive to empty yourself out of all personal attachments that do not comport with the natural law, and then you joyfully support, promote, defend and uphold *all* of the Teachings of the Catholic Church.
Speaking of stigmas, maybe this is a wake-up call for you. My instincts tell me that you like the whitewashed John Jay Report much better. Please let us know if you agree with the $1.8 million dollar whitewashed report so we may all keep our instincts about stigmas properly honed.
Catherine.
How many of the perpetrators of the scandal were married men? Or were unknown to me married clergy!!!!!!!
If you disagree with married clergy- write to the Pope and tell him you disagree.!!As he is the head of the church and suggested they be ordained or re-ordained into the catholic church.
Anglicans seem to have priority over good catholic married men!
Do you not believe that priests are suffering at the hands of the scandals.
Do you not know how many men have left the priesthood to be married.
Does the word Natural Family Planning touch a little conscience!!
We are not speaking generally about married men-so why muddy the waters.
.
.
Mary Helena Gamble asks, “Does the word Natural Family Planning touch a little conscience!”
MHG, Regarding married priests, does the saying Roma Locuta Est-Causa Finita Est touch a little conscience?
MHG, Are you feeling alright? Please go back and read who initiated muddying the waters with the topic of married priests? Who was it that brought up priests being able to get married as being a good solution to remove the stigma that “all priests are molesters?” Who made the statement that married priests may help the future of the Catholic Church to advance in holiness? Who is encouraging other posters to write letters questioning the Pope’s authority regarding married priests?
MHG, I merely stated that being “married” was no safeguard if you have perverted tendencies that are just as destructive as those committed by homosexuals in the scandals. The solution to the topic of this unaddressed question is Pope Benedict’s solution when he states that “Homosexuality is incompatible with the priesthood.” MHG, You advance the state of holiness in the Church when you remain obedient to her Teachings, no matter what your vocation or individual state of life may be.
You ask if I believe that priests are suffering for the scandals? Of course they are MHG because they belong to the Body of Christ and no servant is greater than the Master.
Do I know how many priests have left the priesthood to be married? I certainly do. One I know takes anti-depressants and a faithful priest that I have known for many years receives many visits from ex-priests who are now married. These men come back for years to visit their priest friends and the quote that I remember the most is this… “I made the greatest mistake when I left the priesthood to get married. I now have my better half but believe me, you guys still have the better quarters.” How’s that for some real suffering Mary Helena? The grass is not always greener on the other side.
Catherine thank you for you very explicit comment to my post, and for answeri asl my questions.
Did I say that priests were ‘better off leaving the priesthood to marry’.? I will answer it for you No I didn’t.. Of course they are NOT..
The Holy Father Pope Benedict has made it possible for Anglican priests to be Ordained-are you saying you think he made the wrong decision.
Tell me why we don’t ordain married Deacons we have plenty in England.No need to bring in married priests even to sympathise with them to give them a home.
He is the BOSS so who is disagreeing with the teachings of the Church?
If you can not see that married clergy in the Church using and teaching Fertility Awareness would not increase holiness in catholic family life then you are blindfolded to the truth as to the use of the abortifaciant contraceptive pill, morning after pill.
I have been teaching for nigh on 30 years and can speak from experience- Family life would be more in tune with the Holy Eucharist,I repeat that again.
Yes NFP is a touchy subject- leave it to everyones conscience- we have seen too much of that in the past.Now is the time to have a wake up call-I have had mine with the contraception world many years ago- now it is time for the Bishops and priests to organise proper pre marriage care.
Homosexual activity would not have bred so much in the Church if this had been recognised years ago when Pope Paul V1 wrote Humanae Vitae.
I have my beliefs- and I will respect your opinions.
Perhaps you will be kind enough to translate the Latin for me-
I do not read Latin- nor do wish to speak it. Although I do love the Hymns.
In my travels for the Church, I have known many married priests. Virtually all tell me they are torn between their families and their duties to God’s faithful. All support the celibate priesthood!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
The Orthodox clergy is married, and all the Orthodox lands were overrun by the Soviets. The Roman … celibate … Church has not been overrun, although it is infested.
All that money that has been wasted by Bishop Gregory and all that money that the USCCB is still wasting, just because they are afraid to become MEN OF GOD!! Just how many of the alleged victims were true victims? Of those that were and still are suing the Church, not many, as most of those that were molested or approached by homosexual priests, knows what it means to PRAY the Our Father and were able to forgive. The devil is alive and he is doing quite well for now, but Jesus and Mary and St. Joseph will prevail, and all of those innocent priests whose lives have been destroyed and those priests that fell and have repented, will receive their Heavenly rewards. God Bless our Priests and may those that are not right with God, repent before it is too late. +JMJ+
The true victim, JMJ, is the Mystical Body of Christ. Part of your post aims at the question of how much guilt to impute to the victims of the homosexual priests. Of course many of them are guilty because many of them are homosexuals also … but who groomed them further? Who started them or refused to turn them away from the perversion before they were teenagers? The homosexual priests … these men (although they are not really men at all, but … well, there are many more accurate terms we can come up with) rebuked Jesus Christ in the strongest way that a creature can rebuke God. The reason so many of them are part and parcel to the politics of banning the death penalty, is because they are scarred it could get to them. Why? Because once society figures out that these homosexuals are worse than terrorists with bomb vests, then their futures hopes will end abruptly.
Are you saying here that people should be given the death penalty for having a homosexual orientation? Homosexual persons are worse than terrorists?
It is to be hoped that the radical homosexualists will be stopped, Mark, before the damage they intend to wreak upon our children’s innocence necessitates the kind of reaction which history tells us is often very inconvenient for homosexuals indeed.
If the homosexualists intend to impose their perversion upon our innocent children as if it were a virtue, then I am afraid this will end very badly indeed.
For all of us.
But most certainly indeed for the homosexuals.
Rick I appreciate your comments!
Have any of you read some of Bishop Gregory’s many statements before he rose to such a position of POWER? Had you done so, you know the real source of many of the problems!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
This attack is clearly from Satan…..why is that not addressed? Is this report going to suggest woman become priests if the real reasons aren’t addressed…..This is very clear to me that this is an Attack on our Church……let’s get real here MEN and do something in the name of our Saviour Jesus Christ……the final judge of all our sins….
Men and women of faith should go all out having babies and raising them in the faith. Within a few generations, this population would vanquish the family limiters. The key words here are “courage” and “faith” … well, ok, there are more key words, especially the Key Word, the Word of God, the Logos, Verbum Dei. First instruction to the human race, “Go and make plenty of babies and raise them”. “Raise them” means teach them to believe with their whole heart, whole soul, whole mind and all their strength.
JLS.
Maybe you are not quite understanding that saying ‘multiply the earth’.
I would have had 5 children if three had lived.
My two have produced 5 between them- so all in all that is 10 from my late husband and I, and it isnt finished yet.
When they start producing if it is Gods Will-we are multplyig all the time from my husband and I.My grandmother was a first world war widow and only had my mother-so just from her she has contunued in us all
How many have you produced?
MHG, I like a photo that a great aunt sent me a few years ago. Her father and mother with their 20 children, their Depression Era farm truck, Oklahoma in the background (buncha Okies, they was, doncha know). His wife was his second as his first one died; both wives kicked ten kids. The great thing about this photo is the smiling faces … every last one of them including the grandkids in the picture.
MHG, when you’re not married, as in my case, you are not supposed to “produce” kids. Hey, MHG, ain’t that a great industrial unit type word to use, “produce” kids. But such concepts flood us from the political marketing idea that we are units of production and not unique individual persons made in the image and likeness of God: Which image and likeness is abundant, and thus we are created to be abundant. I am wifeless for circumstantial reasons: long story short: ran after hoz all my youth; ran short on money all my middle age; ran off with dogs to hunt wild birds all my senior years. So, you could say I’ve been running from good women all my life, well at least during the times they weren’t running from me. So, guess what, MHG? Yes, it is true, I pray when times get difficult. This of course brings on even more difficult times, and thus more prayer … some kind of circle … hey, it’s a prayer circle.
I find your combative stance unpleasant and it only serves to weaken whatever arguments you put forward. When I begin to read your posts it is with the same chagrin I felt at Caroline Kennedy Whatever”s beginning speech at the DNC…”As a Catholic woman…” fingernails began screeching across chalkboards. Fewer exclamation points and a little more empathy, please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! haha
JLS, how many children do you have? How many children have you raised? How many children do you think a woman should have (on average)?
A. Good question. If any, then they are all grown by now. B. Classified information. C. Trick question, PA, as per your usual: Women should have as many children as God provides them … ie per St Paul, either the couple couples or they pray; so there you have it: Self sacrifice is not easy, which is why they call it “sacrifice”; Where better to practice self sacrifice than in marriage? You can fast and pray with food, but too much fasting and you die; not so with sex. PA, is your religion called “Easy Ride”?
JLS, You answered my question in your reply to Mary Helena. You stated that you “ran after hoz all my youth”. It is sad that you have such a view of women. Most of those girls probably weren’t, you just labeled them as such. It is too bad that you weren’t raised to show more respect to the fairer sex.
This attack certainly is from Satan. Indeed, Satan presently has his minions – sodomites and Muslims – doing his work. Sodomites have almost taken over the West, and Muslims have almost taken over the East. Many believe that sodomites and Muslims are the two riders of the Pale Horse of the Apocalypse: Death and Hades (Rev. 6:7-8), and that when they finally attain control of the West and East, respectively, they will then turn against each other and conflagrate the earth, bringing the Apocalypse.
This will be interesting to mediate on, Juergensen, the two pronged spear of Satan vs the Two Edged Sword of the Lord.
It is truly mind-boggling why the Bishops cannot muster the moral courage to screen-out homosexual priests from seminaries. Homosexual tendencies, unlike heterosexual ones, are intrinsically disordered whether or not those tendencies are acted-out. Seminarians with such tendencies should not be ordained. No one has a right to be a Catholic priest.
If a man or woman is suffering from SAS but rejects those attractions for the Kingdom of God, how can you determine that they are suffering from such attractions? They may well be Saints in the eyes of God, the greater the cross the greater the crown.
I knew a Religious Brother who was very close to a priest many of you beleive should be canonized, as do I, he was very effiminate, but very much a saintly man!
God bless, your sin Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
1.8 millon? I would gladly have told the bishops the real problem for free.
Dan.
Why didn’t you then?
I did with many others, years ago- but it landed on deaf ears!
Long before Archbishop Weakland from Australia was invited
to England to speak to the National Conference of Priests!!
Mary Helen Gamble,
For your information, Archbishop Weakland is not from Australia, he had enough to do crippling the Church in Milwaukee, WI. to the point it is a basket case.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Kenneth M Fisher-Thank you, you are right.
Sorry my misprint..
Weakland paid $400,000 to his homosexual partner, and got away with it legally by claiming it came from his own funds.
First, the victims are not to blame. The place for restrictions of access is properly the seminaries. Restrict, meaning ban admission to homosexual men without exception. In this case discrimination isn’t wrong, it is necessary to get a start on minimizing the problem. I don’t believe it can be eliminated entirely, but the strategy I described will go far in making it extremely rare.
Yeah, but how are homosexuals going to be screened out by homosexuals?
I hope all readers click the link to read the whole article as the end of the article states the most critical of points, “true reform should not be to question “access to boys,” but to reconsider, with compassion and wisdom, whether clergy roles are appropriate for any man who finds “access to boys” a sexual temptation.” The John Jay Study showed that most of the victims were “young men,” yet did not identify the root being homosexuality as Fr. Scanlon pointed out. Just as a priest with heterosexual desires has to be prudent when in the company of a woman, he should avoid any and all occasions of sin with a woman, so the Church has an obligation to eliminate occasions for sin for men with same sex attraction. The nature of the priesthood has always embodied the mentoring of boys for young men need the role models found in good priests who teach the true meaning of manhood by being Christ to everyone they encounter, especially young men who may have a calling to the priesthood. The true solution is not allowing men with same sex attraction to enter the priesthood in the first place for as Pope Benedict pointed out in the Catechism that the desire is disordered. God Love You.
MD, perhaps a more prudent solution would not to let sexually active men, homosexual or heterosexual, be ordained. Many of the priests that sexually abused young people were also sexually active with women. So these men were not truly celibate. It is true that a large percentage of priests are homosexual and this is because men with a strong sexual interest in women are not interested in the priesthood. Also in recent years many priests have left the priesthood to marry women and this has increased the percentage of homosexual men in the priesthood. Removing faithfully celibate gay priests from the priesthood because a minority of gay priests have abused young people is neither wise nor fair. You can’t punish innocent men for the misdeeds of others. That is unjust discrimination.
Mark from PA, Homosexuals are not fit to be priests. Any priest who is a homosexual lied during their formation. Consequently, their ordination is based upon a fraud… a sin.
Gravey, you say that but most of the posters here probably know that a large percentage of American priests are homosexual. I have read that in some dioceses that at least half of the priests are homosexuals. However, one must realize that some priests who are gay do not label themselves as such, in particular priests who have never been sexually active. You say that homosexuals are not fit to be priests but gay priests who are faithful to their vows of celibacy are surely fit to be priests and have been called by God to be priests.
PA get this through your gay thought process, gays are unfit by their very defective nature to be in the priesthood and should be driven out…
Canisius, I realize that you and many others here think that gay people are defective and should be driven out of the Church. That wasn’t the Church that I was raised in.
Also, what about the idea that the seminaries are used as a traditional dumping grounds for the odd sons of the wealthy. Maybe no sons from wealthy families should be admitted to the seminary. I’m also wondering why any seminarian should be ordained priest prior to age 35, for by that time his faith or lack of faith would be obvious.
Mark from PA,
With your statement: ” because men with a strong sexual interest in women are not interested in the priesthood.” You are so darn wrong it isn’t funny.
I have had many priest tell me: “Do you think God only allows men who have no natural desires to the priesthood? We have desires but we sublimate them for the love of God and His people”!
Besides, when speaking of priests who have left the Sacred Priesthood for sexual desires, they can hardly be called “faithful”!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Mr. Fisher, at the present time since priests are required to be celibate, I don’t think that men with a strong interest in sex should be ordained. Men who are not interested in sex are better candidates for the priesthood.
PA all gay priests must be purged from the priesthoold, unjust? un fair? that its irrelevant, your notions of justice are of little importance. There reason there are few heterosexuals in the priesthood in recent years, because it is controlled by homosexuals and straight me DO NOT want to be around that sort of scene, we find you disgusting…I am tired of gays, who are the sources of these problems being treated with kid gloves
Mark from PA: I hate to break it to you, but you are wrong. First, saying heterosexual men are not interested in the priesthood is an outright lie. There were seminaries that had gay rectors and were not admitting heterosexual men in the 60s and 70s and I know this because I have spoken with several men who attended one seminary in particular that had rampant homosexuality taking place within its walls. Mark, you continually deny that the Catechism states that the attraction, the inclination towards homosexuality is disordered. The Church cannot ordain men who have a pre-disposition to a disordered behavior because it’s playing with fire and sooner or later that fire will reach a fuel source that will ignite. You are so blinded by your gay activism that you show no desire to remain faithful to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is precisely the ideology you spew here that is the problem with the Church today, a relativistic sin embracing love that cares more for “feelings” than the immortal soul. God Love You.
The John Jay report was a whitewash….but what do you expect when it was paid for by the Bishops? Blaming homosexualty would have touched off an even larger uproar nationally, so they took the easy way out and ignored the obvous elephant in the room entirely. The best long term solution is to allow a married clergy with celibacy optional for the nonmarried. It is impossible to fully screen out all gay clerical candidates. The priesthood as a “second career” for a 40-something or 50-something married man makes better sense than focusing on candidates in their early 20s still working out their sexuality. I hasten to add gays should be treated with the respect and kindness that God expects of all of his creatures, but the current problem needs to be addressed headon.
so called “good cause”, if a man makes it so obvious that he is a person with SSA, he does not deserve respect. I have known men who had SSA but did not make it obvious. Being effimnate is not necessarily ‘same sex attraction”!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
And the Vatican and the modernist have a problem with the SSPX, ha ha ha ha ha ha pathetic…..
Homosexual influence, if not control, makes the recent John Jay study worthless. In fact, the study makes little sense, except to eliminate men — i.e., clergy — mentoring boys to become Catholic men, fathers, and priests. No one, whether through academin study, intellectual integrity, and plain common sense has any trouble identifying the root cause of the sexual predation among clergy in the Catholic Church — the large number of homosexual clergy (and bishops). Homosexuals control much of the Church administration and seminaries: stridently anti-Traditional; open to female ordination (new allies for them); and closely aligned to forces that support homosexual marriage (and abortion), these men and their enablers see the clergy, and the Church, generally, as their nesting place. Young men make the beauty of ordination all the more appealing to them. These homosexual clergy simply cannot, and will not, stay away from sexually molesting pre- and post-adolescent young boys and men. Their unholy practices should never be accepted. How in God’s name do people actually debate whether homosexuality is the cause of this catastrophic disaster in the Church? And why is any homosexual even permitted to enter the seminary? The Pope’s three-year test is silly and unworkable. In any event, until the Church drives out acceptance of homosexuality and those that have, and do, practice it, it God’s House will continue to crumble, until there is little left that has not been by victims and their lawyers. No defense! There is no defense for the Church in permitting any homosexual to be a bishop, priest, administrator, teacher, and the like in any Catholic Church, school, hospital, and other entity.
“the Pope’s three year test”??
JLS, that refers to not allowing men into a seminary unless they have been celibate (not engaged in sex with anyone) for three years prior to their entry. Furthermore, men that are sexually active should not be ordained. I don’t quite get what St. Christopher is saying when he says that the Pope’s three year test is silly and unworkable. St. Christopher, do you think priests should be required to be celibate 3 years prior to their entry into the seminary and that men who are sexually active should not be ordained?
Not only were the overwhelming majority of victims males, the overwhelming majority were adolescent males. If the Vatican can’t, or won’t, conclude from those two facts that pedophilia wasn’t the problem, but that homosexuality was, then there is no hope of restoring the Catholic priesthood.
This is from a letter to the editor of my local paper written shortly after the John Jay report was issued:
“In 2002, the Kansas City Star published an article with evidence that over 300 priest died of AIDS-related illnesses since the mid-1980s, an annual death rate four times that of the general population. And Andrew Greeley opined that the number of homosexuals in the Catholic priesthood was so large that it constituted a “Lavender Mafia.”
Pedophiles or homosexual predators? Draw you own conclusion.
The sodomites have infiltrated the Church (Cardinal Ratzinger called them “filth”) and they will blame anything but the obvious conclusion derived from the undeniable fact that 85% of the sex abuse was male-on-male. Think about that. Remove sodomites from the priesthood and instantly reduce child sex abuse by 85%. How can the American episcopacy be against that?
This is for Carolyn, note the unusual but so à-propos last two lines:
Author Unknown
Trust Him when dark doubts assail thee,
Trust Him when thy strength is small.
Trust Him when to simply trust Him
seems the hardest thing of all.
Trust Him, He is ever faithful.
Trust Him for His will is best.
Trust Him for the heart of Jesus
is the only place of rest.
Trust Him then, through doubts
and sunshine,
All thy cares upon Him cast,
’till the storm of life is over
and the trusting days are past.
To Philippe; Thank You so much for that little poem.. I am going to copy it and keep it in my Bible. I think when Our Dear Lord came to St. Faustina and ask that the inscription of “Trust” be put at the bottom of the picture, He knew what was coming into the church, into our organizations, our schools, entertainment, technology etc….especially when it comes to our young people. The corruption breaks my heart Philippe, but i know the Paraclete is with us always. God Bless You.
Yes trust in Him always AMEN to that but trusting him also does not mean we fall in rottenness but it should move us to take action in all that is good and what should be done, to carry our cross and trust in Him no matter what persecution comes out way, even when things don’t go our way!
Priests sanctify men; make them more than human. Sodmists objectify men; make them less than human. Importing these agents into the church is not short of a satanic “masterpiece.”
Get rid of the wimpy same-sex attraction phrase and call it what it is: Same-sex lust.
Please read the whole article. At lot is missing from this excerpt. Those who talk about the John Jay report and this article are missing the point. Even if you get rid of every homosexually-oriented priest, you will still have child abuse. Because not ALL of the abusers were homosexuals. Kids still should not be left alone with priests or any other adult. All precautions need to be in place. Priests do not need access to boys.
k, all male on male sex is homosexual. Almost all child abuse by priests is homosexual. I’m now wondering why we hear nothing about women religious on girl sex, since we hear about women public teacher on girl sex not infrequently?
SNAP has been trying to get the LCWR to deal with this for years. Best estimates I have seen is that there are at least 400 sexual victims of women religious. Of course, the physical and emotional abuse perpetrated by some nuns in classrooms and boarding schools was so common that it became a cliche. There is at least one lawsuit against one order.
“not ALL of the abusers were homosexuals” ~ No, just 85% of them. Thus, get rid of the homos in the priesthood and – bingo! – overnight the child sex abuse falls by 85%. How can you be against that?
I want it to be 100% and the only way you can get that is if parents supervise their kids.
So you oppose removing sodomites from the priesthood and thereby instantly reducing priest sex abuse by 85%? You oppose an 85% improvement because it’s not a 100% improvement? What will you say to those boys who will be abused by the sodomites not removed from the priesthood? Who do you serve?
Mr. Juergensen, I said nothing opposed to removing gay priests. I never addressed that except to say that it will not make a safe environment. A safer environment, probably. Reducing child abuse is not the reason that the Vatican gave for not allowing those with deep seated homosexual tendencies to be ordained. What I said was: Parents need to watch their kids.
BUT the big issue is that not all parents supervise their kids! That is irrelevant! The real issue is allowing gays in the priesthood!
k,
I have been alone with many fine priests and bishops. I have also been around some that were not so fine. You want to throw out the baby with the bathwater!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
There is no reason-aside from confession-that a child needs to be alone with a priest.
k,
I repeat, you want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I have many fond memories of times being alone with a good priest and or bishop! Fr. Aloysisus Elacuria, CMF and Fr. Tomas Matin, CMF were two of them.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Mr. Fisher, I am glad that you had good experiences with some priests. I know you are not a parent and that you were a teen in very different times than today. I do not know any priest who would attempt to spend time alone with boys now that all these horrible things have come to light.
I do agree with K, kids should not be alone with priests, that I do agree with but that rules applies to everyone, do not leave kids alone with a teacher, with a neighbor etc…alone is the hey, applies to all not just a priest. We have wonderful priests yes, but they need to also protect themselves from false assumptions and accusation too!
correction alone is the KEY word, not leaving kids alone…
abeca, yes, even some family members, which is really awkward, but you have to do it.
Kenneth Fisher, I have to agree with Abeca and K. Priests should not be alone with children, neither should teachers and most other adults. Many children see far too much on television and in their own homes now days, and there have been cases of children and adults making false accusations against people. If a student does not like the way an adult disciplined them or the grade they gave them, they can ruin their reputation by a false accusation to get revenge. If the school or church has a “No Child alone with a Student Policy”, it helps protect both the child and the reputation of the adult.
Are any CA bishops screening seminary applicants for homosexual bent?
John, yes, on September 22-25, 2005, my Bishop hosted the12th Annual National Association of Catholic Diocesan Lesbian and Gay Ministries Conference.
No, no, no … JOHN surely meant screening them out, getting them gone, sweeping them out of the seminary, not inviting them in.
JLS; I know what John meant. I was making a point about the Bishop in my diocese. The Saint Joseph’s Men Society had someone attend the conference mentioned above. The Bishop gave the opening talk. The first conference was “Are you a good witch or a bad witch?”. I am not making this up, I have a PDF of the conference. X-rated gay pornography was promoted and sold as some of the exhibits during the conference. I have pictures. The conference ended with a half dozen or more openly gay priests concelebrating Mass in Cathedral Basilica of Saint Joseph in San Jose. The Saint Joseph’s Men Society notified Rome over five years ago. No reply!
Dear Editors, a quote from this article states, “more than 80 percent of the victims were teenage boys and young men.” The John Jay Study studied the abuse of minors, children and teens under the age of 18. Young men and young women 18 and older were not included in this study. The number of victims who were teens, 13 to 17 years old, was 53%, this includes both boys and girls. If one takes 81% of the victims being male then this means that a little over 43% of the victims were teenage boys. Many of the victims were 10 to 12 years of age, a majority of these were boys. Most children in the 10 to 12 year age group are pre-pubescent. In my opinion, those who prey on 10 to 12 year old children are pedophiles. A much smaller number of the victims were under the age of 10 and these victims are equally split between boys and girls. Please check the John Jay Study and you will see that 80% of the victims are not teenage boys. This error needs to be corrected here as it is not true and these false figures are used by people to justify discrimination and mistreatment of some people.
Mark Hear Hear.Well pointed out.
Mary Helena Gamble, I think you said you are from Great Britain? Most US Catholics are not like the people who post here. That is why they find release on this site.
Why is it no surprise that Mary Helen Gamble agrees with Mark from PA?
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Homosexuals are banned from seminaries and the priesthood by the Pope, PA. It will take some time to get rid of them, because of the infestation of them in the episcopacy. These pervert depraved deranged sex maniacs are supported by clandestine money bags globally, who are organized to destroy the Church. Your voice supports these nefarious demoniacs.
JLS.
Your voice supports these nefarious demoniacs’
Our voices do nothing to support the influx of Homosexual priests in the Church
It is one thing to shout about it on a blog-and show insensitivety and ill feelings to those homosexual who are trying to live a decent life.
It only shows how this is getting at you.
If you had experiences of this in your parish and had to fight and campaign for years-where elderly people were exposed to insults, heartbreak , insolance, bullying, and a list too long to mention, and a spouse who was put back 10 years to becoming a catholic- you then would not be on a blog worrying your guts out.
If one is not listened too personally-it won’t change that easily.
I will say no more about that-but just say that my name is my real name not some initial to be anonomous.So I am not ashamed to speak the Truth.
No one could be more disgusted than I, and over a hundred others’
So please don’t tell me that I support nefarious demonics.
A Holy Priest came over to speak at a meeting for us 30 years ago-I still have tapes of what he said.
I was interested in this blog because of the ’10 reasons to use Natural Family Planning’- and the Warwick St Masses and I know quite a lot about them I don’t know why I let myself get involved with discussing further on homosexual priests I have had my fill of that.
Family life-the Faith, proper RE in Catholic schools – the Eucharist, is more in my line of thinking now, a bit of peace in the Lord!
I will pray about the Gay Masses,and hope some will do the same.
So this is my last post-to old now to argue on a blog-I had enough of that in real life.
I hope this comment will not be moderated- I don’t think I have given offence to anyone in this comment.
If I have they can get in touch with me by the e.mail I provided, and I have proof of everything I have said!
God Bless us all in the love of the Holy Family.
The child Jesus,His Blessed Mother and St Joseph, Pray for us.
.
I did more research on the John Jay Report. According to the report, 22% of the victims were 10 years old or younger. Of the offenders, 4% were pedophiles (only had victims 10 years old or younger); 19% were ephebophiles (had only male victims between the ages of 13 and 17); and 5% had only female victims between the ages of 13 and 17. 72% of the offenders had victims of both genders and/or various age groups. These were referred to as “general offenders” in the report.
Mark from PA: I saw the John Jay Report from 2004 and I don’t know what you are looking at. It stated that over 80% of the victims were male and of those 80%, roughly 70% were post pubescent boys/young men. The John Jay report said, “The majority of alleged victims were post-pubescent, with only a small percentage of priests receiving allegations of abusing young children.” Mark, this means homosexuality my friend, something you obviously do not want to admit, but it is the truth. The report stated that 4 of every 5 victims were male Mark. The problem is NOT celibacy, it is not that heterosexual men do not want to be priests, the problem is same sex attracted men becoming priests and these homosexual men perverting their priestly authority to atrocious outcomes.
MD, only 53% of the victims in that study were teenagers (male and female) to get to 70% you have to add the 11 and 12 year old children. I do not consider 11 and 12 years old children to be post pubescent. Perhaps some girls are but boys that age are not post pubescent. I consider a man that has sex with an 11 or 12 year old child to be a pedophile. It is a case of an adult have power over a child. Homosexuals are men that have an attraction to ADULT males.
PA once again denies nature and gives cover to the sodomite cause, homossexuals are attracted to males adult, young adult, teenage or child…This is fact that the sodomite movement tries wish away …
Mark from PA: Wrong again. The John Jay report gave a breakdown of statistics for the age when a victim was first abused. Age 12-14.7%, age 13-12.8%, age 14-13.2%, age 15-11.6%, age 16 8.6% and age 17-6.5% for a grand total of 67.7%. Mark, if the victim is post-pubescent then it is homosexuality, not pedophilia. What you think does not matter for the fact is that this is a homosexual act when a post-pubescent boy is the victim, i.e. statutory rape. You distort the facts to protect you homosexual activism. You deny the disorder of the homosexual orientation and are blind to the fact that a man who has a pre-disposition towards a disordered action is more likely to take part in disordered action if he allows himself to be in the occasion of sin. How is it that you as a catechist can be in such opposition to the Church Mark?
Mark from PA, I have had to read this article more than once to catch this. He is saying “teens and young men.” I do not know where he got the statistic. The John Jay report only reports on incidences with minors. I know of an incidence where a priest was arrested for being inappropriate to a young man at a health club. The diocese does not include it in any report because it was not on Church grounds. I heard of an incidence of a male teen in a different diocese who was treated inappropriately and when he reported it, his diocese said they could not do anything until there were two complaints. These happened after the Dallas Charter. This article is complaining about priests being monitored when they are with young people-kinda creepy. but it also states that priests need to be around “boys” when they are in seminary. Yes, they do. There was an article in Huffington Post from a former priest whose ordination in 2002 included the priest who abused him. He says that seminary culture includes a lot of pressure to forgive. This is the Catholic culture where abuse flourishes. Even though the victims are not minors, they are in a subordinate position with those who have power over their future. The rule of thumb on abuse is “Tell someone. Tell everyone. Until someone hears you and does something about it.” In the seminary they are pressured not to tell.The priest who wrote the article is telling us that there is no protection for young people over the age of 18 in the church.
100% of the Holy Trinity opposes anyone who promotes anything homosexual.
JLS, i may be wrong here, but i get the slight impression you are not in favor of homosexuals.
call me crazy, but that’s the sense i get from your posts…
MD, I am glad to see that you agree with me. I added up the figures you quoted and if you add the 13 to 17 year olds together you get a total of 52.7%. In my post I said that 53% were teens so we are not in disagreement. You added in the 12 year old children to get the total of 67.7%. How is my criticism of priests that abuse children being in opposition to the Church?
Mark from PA: Agree??? Mark, you stated that 53% were male/female victims. The John Jay report did NOT say this, so we do not agree. The report specifically states that MOST of the victims are post-pubescent boys/young men. My criticism towards you is that you fail to admit that this is a homosexual problem and acknowledge that men with same sex attraction should not be admitted into the seminary. You continually reject that notion that the desire towards homosexuality is disordered. No man with an inclination towards this disordered behavior should be admitted into a seminary Mark. God Love You.
max, I don’t know if you are crazy or not, but homosexuals are not nor can ever be favored by me. It’s no theory thing, but experiential: I’ve run into them in numerous social situations in the past … they are always after homosexual engagements … always. They will do everything in their power to achieve it, they have no restraint, nor desire to restrain themselves. They are evil people. They lie about everything. There is no trust to be found in them.
MD, the totals of teens included young people of both sexes, not all of the teenage victims were male, some were female, 20%. You have to take the girls out of the 53%, so most of the victims were not post-pubescent boys. This isn’t a homosexual problem. It is a problem of power. Many of the bishops still don’t understand that people are upset that bishops protected sexual predators in order to protect their own reputations. Because of this many of the predators had multiple victims. How many bishops were removed for covering up for predators? One bishop was recently convicted of child endangerment. We will see if he is removed. The treatment of abuse victims by some bishops is also horrible. They are treated like outcasts by the Church.
MD, it seems that you discount the suffering of female victims. A majority of the victims of sexual abuse in the John Jay Study were male. However, overall, a majority of victims of childhood sexual abuse are female. Most childhood sexual abuse victims are girls who are most often abused by male family members or someone they know.
Mark from PA: Here you go again twisting words. I discounted no one. I pointed out the facts that based on the majority of incidents and allegations, the problem is homosexuality; something you clearly will not admit to as a homosexualist. You remain so determined to defend homosexuality and the homosexual inclination as “being a normal inclination” that you refuse to defend truth. Stop muddying the waters with banter that shifts the attention to the real problem for this is clearly what you are trying to do. Be a man and stand up for the truth Mark. God Love You.
Thank-you, Mark from PA, for correctly stating the facts. Priestly abuse is a mosaic of victims-pre-adolescent, adolescent, adult, male and female. The most common denominator is the power difference between a priest and his victims. The young are attractive victims because they have substantially less power in a relationship than a priest. The priest abuser could almost always count on an additional source of power to aid his crime-his bishop. There is more than a lavender mafia in the Church-there is the episcopate mafia. They enabled and fueled the crisis.
MD, I am a man and I am telling the truth. We actually quoted the same figures, remember? You can’t blame everything on homosexuality. Do you blame homosexuality for priests getting girls and young women pregnant and leaving the Church to get married? In truth I think that the number of girls abused was understated in the John Jay Study. However, I admit that a large percentage of priests are gay. Those that are involved with young people need to be removed but gay priests that are faithfully celibate are fine. From reading comments here, it seems that some think that gay priests should be thrown out of the Church and some even think that gay people period should be throw out of the Church.
Mark from PA: Your opinion that the John Jay Study did not address the amount of priests is just that, an opinion and really has nothing to do with the sexual abuse that has taken place. You deny the fact that men with same sex attraction have a disordered desire and should not be admitted into the seminary because the nature of the priesthood is to be in community with other men. The Church cannot allow occasions of sin, especially for seminarians and priests. As far as our “agreement” on this matter, we did not agree because you stated that 53% of the abuse cases were male/female? This number is not in the report Mark and is false and misleading. Now, no one is saying to remove priests who have remained faithful to their vow of celibacy. The fact is, it is far too dangerous to admit men with same sex attraction into the seminary though. The Church loves people with same sex attraction, but admonishes the sin of homosexuality. I suggest you read the article in First Things called “Why I don’t Call Myself a Gay Christian.” It shows a theology that you neglect in your posts. God Love You.
MD, 53% is the total of teens who are 13, 14, 15, 16 and 17 years of age, this includes teens of both sexes; the majority of whom are boys. You say that men with same sex attraction should not be admitted to the seminary. Lets face facts. Many priests are gay, many seminarians are gay. They are not going to just disappear. If a man is celibate and has a calling, it is unfair discrimination to throw him out of the seminary due to his sexual orientation. Many men do not share this information with others, if they are not sexually active they don’t think it is everyone’s business. It would be good if priests did feel safe in sharing this with people but with hatred and discrimination directed at gay people by some, for their own safety some feel that they must remain silent about this. Also some young men do not fully realize that they are gay or haven’t really integrated this.
Mark from PA: First, as I have been trying to state, the “clever” wording you use is misleading because it gives the impression that your 53% includes more women than actually made allegations. Stating that most of the victims were same sex crimes against minors, i.e. statutory rape is more accurate. As for men with same sex attraction being allowed to enter the seminary, well let’s see what Pope Benedict has to say on this matter. In Light of the World, the Holy Father shows us that the homosexual inclination is incompatible with the priesthood. This is also something Blessed John Paul II discussed in his Theology of the Body and the paternity of a priest. The Catechism states that the homosexual inclination is disordered and men with same sex desire have to explore other means of fulfilling their vocational calling and means of serving the Lord. Mark, there are far less “gay” priests than you think. You sound like our secular society that assumes priests are same sex attracted because they chose not to marry and to live a celibate lifestyle as priests, but this is not the case. Remember Mark, the Church is the bride (the bride of Christ) and when a man becomes a priest he becomes the bridegroom of the Church and his wife is the Church and we are his children. God Love You.
MD, many men with homosexual inclinations are married to people of the opposite sex. The Church doesn’t oppose gay people marrying people of the “opposite” sex. So if a man who does not have a strong sexual attraction to women becomes a priest then symbolically his wife is the Church and we are his children. So a priest is a “chaste” spouse like St. Joseph. Many priests could be considered gay because they don’t have a strong attraction to women but instead have a “brotherly love” towards women.
Mark from PA: First, your statements about men who “don’t have strong attraction to women” contradicts what both Pope Benedict and Blessed John Paul the Great have said about same sex attracted men entering the priesthood. Second, you cannot equate a man not having a strong desire to marry a woman to being attracted to men. If a man has sexual attraction to other men he is NOT a good candidate for priestly formation Mark. Period. God Love You.
The priesthood is composed of men of many cloths. There are homosexuals, men who have an attraction to other men. There are pedophiles, men who have an attraction to boys under 16 years of age, usually much younger. There are men who are heterosexual and pedophiles. My experience with youth groups is that it is the pedophiles that you need to worry about, and most of them were heterosexual.
I understand that most if not all seminaries now try to prevent homosexuals from becoming priest. I also know that many of the seminaries are filled with teachers left over from the 90s that were encouraging homosexuals to join the priesthood. Some seminaries were known for their great number of homosexuals. I think that if we look at the cases of “molestation” that have come to the courts, most of the priest were guilty of molesting children under the age of 16. That is pedophilia and not homoxeual behavior.
Bob One, Your understanding of the Catholic Faith is so wrong and so confused it boggles the mind. What really bothers me is the idea that you are actually allow to work with “youth groups.” Unfortunately, there are not enough millstones to go around for people like you and Mark from PA who lead children into error.
Bravey, I have not made one statement in this thread about the Catholic Faith, so I don’t know how you come off calling me all those names. Look up the definitions of homosexual and pedophile in the dictionary. Take a few of the millstones off if you would, since Mark from PA and I disagree on almost everything except the part about being nice to people
Bob One, homosexauls are attacted to all males of any age. I want a clear explanation of something you just stated “There are men who are heterosexual and pedophiles” tell me is it not possible that homosexual men are also pedophiles, explain that with logic, that goes for you too PA..
Canisius, it is very possible for homosexual men to also be pedophiles. According to the dictionary that I read, men who abuse children (under 16 yrs) who are not yet men are classified as pedophiles. When they abuse men (over 16) it can be called homosexual behavior. I’m no expert, I just looked it up in the dictionary.
Bob One says, Shucks, ‘I’m no expert.” = I am only here on this Catholic website to whitewash that first John Jay Report hoping that others will be dumb enough to buy my baloney but today’s Palm Springs story is sure making my rancid baloney a lot tougher to sell.
Catherine, you can do better. I am not on this site to whitwash anything. I just thought, mistaken I guess, that having some definitions to work with might be helpful.
Skewed, Bob One, skewed: all cases of same sex sex is depraved, called sodomy … or you could call them Gomorra-ites also. It is always the perves who begin parsing out the various categories … maybe they get sexual excitement from imagining such superficial differences. They are all homosexual derangement cases awaiting Hell’s gallows.
Bob One, I believe the definition of pedophila is pre-pubescent boys (and girls). Where did you get the 16 year old criteria? What is you source?
Wikipedia!
Jesus and Mary are my “soul” refuge. I feel like King David loving God, my heart is happy and my mind is free of these awful burdens, for they are not of the true church and do not affect me and millions of others world-wide whom many refer to us as traditionalists or worse, in derogatory terms. I am a Roman Catholic following and holding fast to the centuries old latin-spoken Roman Catholic faith, dogma, 7 holy sacraments, Council of Trent Catechism, prayers, and daily practices. I worship the Blessed Trinity in the Tridentine Latin Mass.
Mark from PA: “…this is because men with a strong sexual interest in women are not interested in the priesthood.” There’s ignorance and bigotry tied up in one neat sentence.
tom in san jose: “It is truly mind-boggling why the Bishops cannot muster the moral courage to screen-out homosexual priests from seminaries.” No it isn’t mind-boggling. Too many bishops are SSA themselves and even the ones who aren’t are afraid of fierce criticism that would arise or afraid of depopulating their parishes of priests.
jp: Your brief comment is one of the most profound I’ve ever read at CCD.
Fr. Michael, thank you, PA’s comment is beyond ignorant, but it is typical of modernist Catholic who’s observation and points of reference are of this world and corrupt culture. Believe me I have incredible sexual attraction to women as the stains of my former sins still simmer within me. That being said if I could be priest (I am married) I would be, and as for my strong attraction, I do have something called self control…
God bless you FrMichael!
Male homosexuals are attracted to ephebi, meaning young boys who cannot yet shave. It has been this way for thousands of years. This is why this perversion is dangerous to society.
Exactly right, Gratias.
ALL sexual acts outside of marriage ( – between one man and one woman) are MORTAL SINs.
CCC: ” 2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.
Arguing anything else is WRONG because it dilutes the real issue of SIN.