The following comes from a November 16 Catholic Stand article by Matthew James Christoff:
There is a serious Catholic “man-crisis”: The pews have fewer Catholic men in them than ever before.
The New Emangelization Project (NewEmangelization.com) has documented the devastating loss of faith among Catholic men. Large numbers of baptized Catholic men have left the faith and the majority who remain are “Casual Catholic Men”, men who don’t know the faith and don’t practice the faith.
One in three baptized Catholic men in the U.S. have left the Church. The fastest growing religious segment of the U.S. population are called “Nones”, those who profess no religion. The single biggest contributor to the “Nones” are men who were formerly Catholic.
It gets worse: the majority (some 50-60%) who remain are “Casual Catholic Men”, men who don’t know or practice the faith.
Large numbers of Catholic men don’t have a basic understanding of the faith. Only about one in three Catholic men strongly agree the Sacraments are essential to their faith. About half of Catholic men are “bored” in the Mass and don’t feel they “get anything out of the Mass.”
A startling 60% of Catholic men would consider leaving the Church.
These men are not committed to pass the faith along to their children. Half of Catholic men do not know the faith well enough to explain it to their children and they are not convinced it is important for their children to remain Catholic. The lack of commitment of fathers to pass the faith along to their sons will add to the Catholic “man-crisis.”
To be politically correct, the Church has been catering to women for the last 20 to 40 years,
Female altar girls, females reading the Epistle – etc, etc,
We have lost an entire generation of men.
Lousy catechesis – not being encouraged to read the Bible and CCC at home has been the case for all – both men and women.
Leadership in the church has been feminized from choosing men for priesthood and seminary training. Clarity of doctrine, assertiveness in self expression, fighting for souls are interests for men. Relativism of truth, punishment of male spirit, social work, false justice, equality, rights, and fairness have substituted for these. Men don’t relate to these wordplays which undermine their spirit. Priests are made to fear faculty’s rejection in seminary, and later vocal parishioners’ and the bishop’s’ rejection. Clear doctrine in faith and morals, fighting sin, calling it for what it is, truth in compassion are valued by men. The message of fighting for holiness will draw back men.
Father Richard, I hope you don’t actually believe that anything being feminized is a bad thing. I think Mary was wonderfully feminine, and I think many things are improved by being made a touch more feminine. Office places are one, for example. Once women began appearing in offices, men improved their vulgar language, stopped telling dirty jokes (most of the time), became much more productive, and American business began to soar, ultimately taking leadership among the nations. Rough men fighting is not the ideal for humanity that all Catholics aspire to. Many men wish to be more serene, settled, peaceable and bonded to family, friends, and neighbors, as well as closer to God.
…American business began to soar because of the free market and ingenuity, Maryanne, not the ‘woman’s’ touch. Not sure where you’re getting your information. As for dirty joking, um, life on the ground is that women, much of the time, join in. The women have, in many areas of business, become more masculine. That is if one defines masculinity as being aggressive, swearing, self serving, and going for whatever will get the deal done.
In truth, male female interaction ‘on the job’ can be and often IS more of a distraction to pure productivity as nature does take its course. That’s one of the reasons why the military wasn’t so hep on having females on submarines or shipboard. Causes PROBLEMS. The idea that masculine…
equates to ‘rough men fighting’ is absurd.
There is proper order, Maryanne. And within the context of proper order, men were very much serene, settled, peaceable and bonded to family, friends, and neighbors, as well as closer to God. It is only the overthrow of that proper order by social engineering and the public denigration of traditional female roles that has pitted men and women against each other.
Time to call a halt to it. Vive la difference and all that. God calls men to be the head of the family, the spiritual head, too. So let them in as much as you can without the children suffering. Unless you WANT to do everything.
Ann, it was Father Richard’s phrase about men fighting that I was relating to. I don’t think your response relates very directly to my own, but thanks for your thoughts.
Father Richard was referencing men fighting for souls, Maryanne. That said, I find your response to him even more confusing.
“Rough men fighting is not the ideal for humanity that all Catholics aspire to.”
Um, yes, men fighting for souls is precisely what all Catholics aspire to. Women should be fighting for souls, too, but in a socially engineered fight of men vs women. That is why your devolving to attribute the financial/corporate success of the United States to be somehow due to the ‘woman’s’ touch is something I felt compelled to counter.
It’s not true.
….or rather fighting for souls is something all Catholics ‘should’ aspire to. That is why the false fight of women vs men needs to be put aside, just like the angst about not being named spiritual head of the family. That belongs to the man, like it or not.
Maryane, I think that so-called “feminization” in our culture, has NOTHING to do with women– rather it has to do with POLITICAL CORRECTNESS!! It has to do with a SUPPRESSION of natural instincts to think and act in a mature and responsible adult manner– especially for men! The 1960’s hippies all were sissies– very, very BABYISH, who refused to grow up! And movements such as feminism, are actually trying to make everyone “unisex,” neither gender– and this is unnatural!! Feminism does not promote natural womanhood– it is a political tool to DISTORT and SUPPRESS true womanhood!
I think the whole problem is that the hippie liberals can never grow up, take decisive action, think clearly, make mature judgments (a “no-no,” for the politically correct!), think truthfully as adults, take responsibility— and live, think and act maturely, as adults! They are all BABIES!! They do not want AUTHORITY, LEADERSHIP, ADULTNESS, SELF-CONTROL, RESPONSIBILITY, MATURITY— they all were brainwashed in the 1960’s, to be babies, to HATE adults, to HATE parents, authority figures, etc. etc. VERY SICK PEOPLE!!
Mature women, as well as mature men– think and act as adults, with clear minds, decisive action, and yes– good JUDGEMENT! (uh, oh– a POLITICALLY INCORRECT WORD!!) They take on authority roles, too– as MOTHERS, TEACHERS, LEADERS in their community, and in days of old, as mature, responsible nuns, too! All the time! That is– before the SICK 1960’s, when ADULTHOOD, PARENTHOOD, AUTHORITY, MATURITY, CLEAR JUDGEMENT, and LEADERSHIP were unnaturally SUPPRESSED, by idiots who refused to GROW UP!!
I will say one more thing. A good adult man or woman, is not cruel, nor sinful, if they speak the Truth and act upon it– with decisiveness, firm authority, parenthood, maturity, and leadership! Even many modern-day prelates and Popes are shamefully and unnaturally DISTORTED and SUPPRESSED in their leadership and authority roles, due to sick, babyish “hippie liberal” POLITICAL CORRECTNESS!! I am SO SICK of this NONSENSE, of “HATE AUTHORITY FIGURES,” from the big babies, who won’t grow up, themselves, and think and act decisively, responsibly, and maturely, in their own lives!
Men need to be put back in the roles that were meant them by God! Same goes fir us Women! Stop killing their babies with millions of abortions, stop dressing and acting like men are start being true ‘feminie’ women!
“…Clarity of doctrine, assertiveness in self expression, fighting for souls are interests for men.”
God bless you, Father, but the above are also interests for women who understand what women are called to do. Not try to turn the Church into a powder room. And absolutely not turn men into women.
And there you have it! Truth be Told!
A clear message of what to fight for, an organized leadership that calls men to do so activates the male spirit. In Islam, the men are leaders, bow to pray in public, and fight for what they believe, led by others who fight for what they believe also. Yet it is Christianity that places the Spirit of Jesus in men and women not only to love, but to fight for the truth, salvation of souls from sin and death, to be rescued by Jesus and to rescue others also. Women have different spirits and Christian motivations. The two together build up a Church in Christ.
A clear message. Absolutely right, Father. To include that ‘male’ is absolutely necessary, not redundant or interchangeable. God bless!
Modern “liberal-hippies” have the DISTORTED notion that Christ is somehow a silly, goofy, childish kind of “boy” or “teen-ager,” all mixed up (not a man at all!) who is your “brother” (equal to you, and never an AUTHORITY FIGURE, to RESPECT, as a DIVINE TEACHER!!) !! RIDICULOUS!! They like to picture Jesus as a drunk or dope-infested little silly teen-age boy, addicted to his peers in the drinking or dope group– who goes around slapping everyone on the back, desperate for acceptance and love, and hugging everyone, like a big insecure baby! RIDICULOUS!!
Before V2, men frequently attended Mass, especially before going to work. Many parishes had 6am Masses, and sometimes even earlier. With women taking over so many positions, especially in liturgical matters, men simply ceased coming to Mass. Too many females believe the church is their own personal fiefdom and maintain control over much of the decisions formally made my the priest.
This will be painfully comic to watch the Novus Ordo Duck defenders. The New Rite is highly emotional, personalized, and often highly feminized (both with regard to its clergy and its “active-participants”—just take a look, as I do, every Sunday, with exceptions of some excellent clergy allowed.): Everything that makes most men cringe inside. It is why I call it, just to watch it, “The Nervous Ordeal”.
Now let the proud defenders step forward and quack away.
….I’m thinking the Novus Ordo Duck defenders have flown south, or at least a good number, Steve. That said, the highly emotional, personalized, feminized offerings turn women off too. Cringe is the word. Maybe its the Norse heritage, but the hold-hands touchy feeling “participation” squiggy is a huge turnoff.
I have always thought the Novus Ordo was infested with sick, overly-psychologized “hippie” pseudo-intellectual priests and laymen, afraid of their shadow, trying to be “trendy,” “teen-agery,” and “politically correct,” afraid of losing all the worshippers, if they acted NORMAL, and GREW UP!! We desperately need a GROWN-UP CHURCH with MATURE LEADERSHIP!!
I can never understand how could anyone respect or listen to people who use terms like novos ordo duck defenders. Its so disrespectful and not a good practice of grace and virtue. They call themselves Catholic. They are double standard. Its embarassing to the faith they want to represent. But it says alot of what type of people we are dealing with. I don’t see Jesus work in their anger and unjust words. This is an admonishment done in charity.
Abeca, the time for table manners is past. If you do a little reading, Catholics, the real kind, aren’t necessarily focused on gentility when matters of Faith, souls, and attacks against the Faith are concerned.
Santa Claus (that is ST. Nicholas) punched a heretic in the face. And I’m certain nobody doubted he was Catholic.
As to ‘what kind of people you’re dealing with’ it’s called frustrated people who are using humor to overcome the obstacle of those focused on wrong impressions rather than being wrong.
Your examples do not apply to this rude behavior. I do not approve of your bad mouthing the OF mass. Calling it duckies etc….it is wrong…its part of our faith, like it or not, this behavior is not charitable.
Abeca, your approval isn’t required.
Ann Malley likewise! I follow Jesus and i pray you will someday too! Jesus approves, so if you dont follow him, then its on you!
This is not true in North San Diego County, where I live. I go to daily Mass at 3 different parishes and the presence of men is roughly equal to that of women. As for Masses being boring, I agree with that in most churches where Protestant hymns prevail, there is much hand holding and emphasis on the “natural, us” rather than the “supernatural, God” — my parish excepted, St. Margaret ‘s in Oceanside.
because you are blessed to have Fr. Wallace!
Absolutely! I live 2 blocks from another Catholic church but drive for 20 min. to St. M.
https://www.facebook.com/Reign-Intervention-1518164321831749/
Peggy i agree. We are blessed. Our parishes that we attend is of equal. But its about quality over quantity. Ann Malley on another post my cell phone cut off. Sorry you didnt get my full reply. Its for a good reason im sure.
The good reason is one shouldn’t give out their cell phone number on a CCD forum. Glad CCD or Providence edited it out.
God bless.
Ann Malley to clarify on my cell i post on this website sometimes and it cut off and i didn’t get to complete my sentence. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I didnt say i was posting my number.
Good to know. God bless!
The absence of men in the pews should come as no surprise to anyone. They were driven out in the name of equality/feminism. This trend will continue as a commitment of both parents to the faith is necessary to pass it on to our children and grand children etc. Most catholic marriages today are mix marriage even when both parties are catholic when viewed by the articles statistics. A catholic girl is lucky just to marry a baptized catholic and blessed to find a practicing one. This was the common complaint of my daughter and her friends, all graduates of a small faithful catholic college, where are all the catholic boys. They realized that the father is the spiritual leader of the family just as the priest is the spiritual leader of a…
The Faith that began with twelve men as disciples, is now very emasculated, including the male bishops who toady to the feminist-Leftist sexual mindset.
When is the last time you heard a sermon on how a Catholic man should act in a marriage? Or are your priests always talking about “tolerance” for homosexual men?
it is right and good for young men to stay far away from the average Catholic Mass.
You must read “Good Bye, Good Men” and you will all understand what happened.
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/goodbye-good-men-michael-s-rose/1110894261
To reply to Mike M. A tragic but excellent book! Everyone should read it, especially the Pope!
At traditional Catholic chapels there are plenty of men and boys.
Traditional seminaries are full too.
Something happened after Vatican II. I was raised by a single mother in the 1960’s after my “nominal Christian” father left my mother for another woman. My grandparents “stepped up to the plate” to support us. My grandfather never went to high school; but was a leader in the Knights of Columbus and cornerstone of the family. He made us all attend Mass every Sunday and was active in the parish. One of my uncles became a priest and rose to the office of Vicar General of his diocese. I have also followed in his footsteps becoming a permanent deacon. Organizations such as the Knights of Columbus need to reach out to these lost men to restore the backbone of the Church.
Misandry = Hatred of Men & Boys, Masculinity & Normal Heterosexuality
SEE:
THE VORTEX—BE A MAN
https://www.churchmilitant.com/video/episode/the-vortexbe-a-man
-Weak men as leaders combined with a lack of supernatural faith creates a “machine” within the Church…
– Men must never talk about the lack of leadership, the lack of faith, the lack of masculinity among today’s collection of bishops. You, me, any man who brings this up will be cut off. Period.
Too many well-intentioned men in the Church unwilling to risk the opprobrium that would absolutely come their way if they opened their mouths publicly…
The reason is because they are too afraid of the retaliation that would be leveled against them by the establishment.
Say…
Great, Michael McDermott!! You are always saying the truth, regarding “hippie liberals” masquerading as “men!” Today, MANHOOD is unnaturally DETESTED, YES! The whole media message is, “DO NOT BE A MAN!!” Instead, be babyish, be “LGBT,” because that is “politically correct”– and to be unnaturally attracted to the same sex, and other abnormal, similar conditions– is a SERIOUS ILLNESS, but they refuse to grow up, take responsibility, and admit it!! RIDICULOUS!!
Say the truth like a man — and deal with the consequences like a man.
And there’s nothing to be afraid of in the end, because the perfect man will have your back.
LOVE it, Michael McDermott! What you say is all true! “Say the truth and deal with the consequences”– YES!! And both men and women, need to GROW UP and TAKE RESPONSIBILITY!! Including, RESPONSIBILITY FOR SIN, and to use that very word, SIN, and not be scared of it! To say, “YES, I SINNED!” to God, to the Pope, to the world, and… SO WHAT? It is NORMAL, to SIN!! After that, go take responsibility for it, and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!! How I wish Pope Francis would think this way– like a MAN! Or, like an ADULT!! I bet his mom, and the teaching nuns in Catholic school, when he was young, were all strong, mature ADULTS!!
There are several reasons why our Catholic men find it easier to relate to the excitement of sports on TV or the rewards of working for a living than to worship at Mas. In our culture, modern women are allowed and to an extent expected to be spiritual, emotional, connected to one another, and devoted to God and family, whereas men are expected to be strong and hearty individualists, not needing anyone (overtly). Since women are the spiritual and religious centers of the home, why are we told the mean are the spiritual leaders of the family? Men need us to help them get to church.
Modern men are NOT encouraged to be strong and hearty individualists, not needing anyone. What they’re encouraged to be is lifelong teens/babies. The following may help to explain part of the problem:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO1ifNaNABY
That said, the man being the spiritual head of the family is God’s plan, Maryanne. This is why a continued rejection of His plan, sticking to, “… Since women are the spiritual and religious centers of the home, why are we told the mean are the spiritual leaders of the family?” will only lead to continued disorder.
The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance -The Same With *All* Church Teaching
Here are some of the reasons why men are not in the pews. There are many feminists pre-canonizing clergy who support same sex marriage. In the Diocese of Orange Ca. there are extremely effeminate clergy who are slyly promoting women’s ordination to the un-catechized and unsuspecting sheep.
Another Reason…Taken from Dympha’s Road – Wednesday November 18, 2015
NO WONDER THE MEN AREN’T IN THE PEWS
https://dymphnaroad.blogspot.com/2015/11/no-wonder-men-arent-in-pews.html
“All the evil in the world is due to lukewarm Catholics.” Pope Pius V
Thank goodness I don’t live in Orange County, Catherine. The sly promotion of blech is insidious.
Interesting but i concluded differently from what you presented Catherine. One would conclude it is because of their absense that we are having this issue. Those evil woman should be taken down by strong men but they are not. Why? Im sure we could have a long discussion. I hope a respectful one because this IS a concern we should all dialogue with solutions but we are woman. We can discuss all day long but how can we women fix something that is not our own to fix. We are woman of faith seeking to submit why would the men not attending and not leading listen to us? This is an issue that the men need to lead, they need to hold each other accountable one man at a time.
“One would conclude it is because of their absense that we are having this issue.”
Some years ago, a relative was driving with Joe Garragiolo and Yogi Berra after they had attended a Sunday Mass in Arizona. Joe Garragiolo rightly lamented about the terrible lack of inspiring male leadership coming from the pulpit. He said that he often wanted to go up and scream at the priest and say, “Father, I NEED your strength, courage and guidance and you had one hour to reach me and make a huge difference to help me. …..Is THAT the best you can do?” Men want meat, not pablum with soft applesauce.
Precisely, Catherine. Thank you!
Sadly, much of what should be a spiritual call to arms/get-your-game-on approach has turned into the equivalent of a half-time talk of mommies and/or mistresses (…remember, the my ‘wife’ doesn’t understand me ;^) rushing in to stroke the boo boos of the quarterback and linemen while they stuff them with sweeties to get them prepped for the second half of the game.
It’s an old tactic. Encourage softness and what you will get is soft and very often no resistance whatsoever to the pointed attacks of the opposition. In some cases, there is no need for opposition because, with all the cozy coddling and warm tummy fuzzies, the team just rolls over and quits. Game over.
Here are some reasons that fewer men are active in the Church. 1) Many did not attend a parochial school because there aren’t many of them. 2) Catholic colleges are often Catholic in name only. 3) converts get religious instruction, but others don’t. 4) Legion of Mary is nearly all women, not even retired men attend. Why not? 5) Parishes should provide a list of on-line Catholic web sites. 6) Advertise the station for Immaculate Heart Radio, an excellent source of Catholicism.
Tough for men to identify with the mainstream church. See: Cornelia Ferreira, “The Feminist Agenda within the Catholic Church.” Publisher: Life Ethics Centre, Toronto. http://www.canisiusbooks.com
This is a leading indicator of what the Church will be like in 50 years if not sooner. All who lead the Church should ask the question: “Why”. What has the Church done in the last 20 years to turn-off so many men; to make them not want to go to Mass on a regular basis and raise their families in the faith? What do we teach, do, practice, etc. that drives them away from Mass and the faith? Have we reached a point where Sunday soccer practice has more relevance than the word of God? I don’t know the answer, I only have opinions, but the Bishops should be doing major research on this issue.
Its quite simple Bob One we went from a Church Militant to a “worship community” liberals cannot see this. Men need to lead and fight. community does not allow that. More importantly is the complete removal of all gays from the ministry at every level.
Before the Council, when Mass was in Latin, weekday Masses were all Low Masses. There was no singing, no offertory processions, no sermons, and the Mass took around 20 minutes. Now, with all the falderal, Mass usually lasts over 30 minutes, and instead of leaving in peace, one leaves in pieces. There is no time for silent reflection, and so one goes from the frying pan into the fire. Also, confessions used to be held before daily Mass. Now it is difficult to find a priest who will even hear them.
Yes, of course, if a man does not go to Mass, it most certainly must be a woman’s fault, according to some of these brilliant minds posting here. But fair warning, men: don’t expect on Judgment Day to hear Jesus say, “It’s okay, my son, I know it was her fault, and I will definitely see that she suffers the penalty of your sins and shortcomings.” Women, we need to let our men know that we love and admire faithfulness of all varieties in a man. Men are wonderful in wanting to please us, so do encourage them in every way. You can help save the eternal souls of the men in your lives by love and encouragement.
Nobody is blaming the women per se, Maryanne, but rather blaming those who would make the celebration of mass an appeal to feminine sensibilities. (Kind of like marketeers who understand that women typically dispense the grocery budget and so advertising is written to appeal to women. Buzz saw commercials aren’t usually filmed in pink glow or feature smiling children.)
Do men typically want to attend soirees with watermelon martinis, chocolate dipped strawberries, Kenny G music and an exchange of party favors and mutual fingernail painting? NO. The atmosphere described is a stereotypically female realm. The women don’t have to tell the men not to come. They don’t want to come.
So women can encourage men to come to mass by…
… by encouraging liturgists and choir directors and PRIESTS to opt for the more straightforward, masculine (spartan, meaty, low key), this is our Catholic duty celebration of mass that calls upon the male spirit of providing, protecting, and doing those hard tasks that men are supposed to do. Like teaching the kids about heaven, hell, sin, heresy, love of God, fidelity and being Christlike (translation: STRONG and loving). Not packaging it all to look like a sensitivity training course.
The problem is feminism, not women. Feminism was invented by men, going back to the secret societies of the early 18th century. The point was to corrupt men, we must first corrupt women. Then, and only then, the church could fall. Marx, Engels, and Mao championed women in the workforce to destroy the family. Men want feminism in order to exploit women. Sex without consequence. When the differences between the sexes are denied, ultimately heterosexuality is denied. Feminism and homosexuality are 2 sides of the same coin. What has happened to the Church is a systemic destruction of the natural order. It is ludicrous to be defensive about it.
Ralph interesting comments something to consider. Blessings.
Thank you MaryAnne i agree with you. It began with Adam when he blamed God for giving her to him and blamed Eve. Again we know the truth! Men need accountibility. Good comments. Feminism started because of the sins of men against women! I dont like what feminism did to our society but understand that due to sin women where forced to act. I hope these women heal and seek Jesus for their healing.
Felicity, Perpetua, Agatha, Lucy, Agnes, Cecilia, Anastasia’ St. Theresa of Lisieux, St Teresa of Avila, St. Bernadette, St. Maria Goretti, St. Rita, Saint Catherine of Sienna, St. Edith Stein, St. Gianna Molla, all lived in a society where sin existed. These women are now saints because they were holy and intelligent enough to never pit women against men or men against women. No matter what heavy cross they were given to bear, they didn’t bash men. How convenient to selectively forget that it was EVE who first **eagerly** tempted Adam. Like it or not, it took the disobedient actions of TWO in that garden.
“
You’re pulling an Adam, Abeca. EVE put herself squarely in the occasion of sin by dallying with the snake and desiring to be like unto god. That is, EVE chose to usurp God’s plan and then tried to convince Adam that he should do things HER way. (…perhaps because Adam was too occupied with the business of naming animals – who knows.)
Perhaps if Eve had avoided the occasion of sin and, when her ear was tickled by the lies of the snake, had fled to her husband and said, advise me, Adam wouldn’t have fallen, too. No, instead, she led him right along with the Devil, using her own hurts to mislead her husband and their subsequent family.
But we inherit Original Sin through Adams fall. The why is because it is/was his duty to LEAD…
…He didn’t. And then after the fact, Adam blamed God and the woman. Similarly, women today are blaming the sins of men for having to ACT against God’s plan – that is the headship of men. But, Abeca, there will be no healing in Jesus until women get back on board with His plan, that is men leading the family. For to deny God’s plan is to deny Jesus’s plan…. and His help.
Oh ladies i dont agree with your opinion. Good day. Go with God.
….then it would seem you take issue with God’s design for the family, Abeca. If it were only opinion, my own life would be much different. Submitting, especially when one has a strong will, is not easy.
Go with with God indeed.
No Ann Malley. Where do you get your conclusions? No offense please take not but its not what im conveying. I have explained the theology in the past. God created Adam and made him in charge of animals and the earth. He gave him Eve and made him charge over her. So its you ladies, why our men do not man up with your faulty interpretation of the scriptures. Read up on it from Scott Huan and even from saints in the past. If Adam truly honored God, he would of admonished Eve and protected her from the serpent. Not blame God for giving her to him nor blame it all on her. He would take responsibility over her and his actions. Why cant you get that? But you wont and thus because of those…
Yes Ann women are blaming too. Whether in their right or not. But this article conveys an issue happening within the faith. Anytime anyone sins against God, there needs to be personal responsibility. But im speaking of how God meant it. Men are to lead and protect their families. Just like St Joseph lead and obeyed God and took Mama Mary and protected her and baby Jesus. My husband is the head of the home. Im traditional and submit to my hubby only when he honors God and does not jeopardize his soul or ours. I love my husband to the point that its important for me to care for his soul. The salvation of my family is important to me.
I may be flawed and imperfect but it does not take away my zeal to seek God and His salvation plan for us His children. I am a sinner and Im grateful that Jesus is merciful to us all. His passion showed us how great His love is for us. Mama Mary displayed obedience and holiness. Jesus displayed to the men what dying of self is. “Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it: ” from holy scriptures.
Abeca, it takes two to tango. So while you’re busy seeking out excuses for women via Scott Hahn, you need to understand as well that Eve played a pivotal role. No, ultimately, it wasn’t Eve that caused the fall of man. (I clearly stated as much.) Eve, however, aided the fall by stepping out of proper order and tempting her husband, by way of her own pride and self will, to LEAD him to sin. Why can’t you see that, Abeca?
This is why I responded to Maryanne Leonard who, in her posts, seemed to buck at that order laid out by God.
Women were created to be man’s helpmate. Eve did not behave in accordance with her duty. And despite the solace to be found in blaming everything on men, women would do better to look to their…
Ann Malley i get it, I get it to where Eve went wrong. Not denying that. You said Eve tempted him? Interesting. Eve did no such thing. She only ejected out of him, his true self and weakness. Had he obeyed God, he would not have fallen. Did Eve put in his heart to blame God and her? Common sense tells us that he had those weakness deep inside. Your avoiding the root and the truth. If you keep excusing Adam then remember our priests are tempted daily by sinners, are we to excuse them as well when they constantly disobey? Priests are men! No woman is to be ordained. Then Adam was made head of Eve, he was to take charge of her and her obedience, her temptation to him, shows where he lacked obedience and where he flawed and lacked to protect…
Douay-Rheims Bible
And to Adam he said: Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat, cursed is the earth in thy work; with labour and toil shalt thou eat thereof all the days of thy life.
Abeca, Eve gave Adam the fruit. That’s called tempting. Adam could have said no, should have, but said yes. Much like priests ARE men and need to lead, but are often assailed by packs of ‘well meaning’ ladies who say but this is good, better, do it, etc and then take over.
And no, women are not ordained! Men have the leadership/headship role, even before the fall. That is why we inherit Original Sin from Adam, not Eve. The why is because Adam was the…
…head of the human family. With all the duties, responsibilities etc.
That’s why I took issue with Maryanne’s bristling against God’s order. Her insinuation that women should be the spiritual heads/leads of the family is precisely what gives rise to men giving way to what I call lazy-lion syndrome. That is leave all the heavy lifting, to include the heavy lifting of bringing down the kill to the females. But, of course, this brand of man will also likely to be prompt in cutting out the choices pieces of meat (video games, hobby cars, expensive golf clubs etc) for himself.
Be careful not to use the common sense argument to divest women of their fair share in wreaking havoc with society. A henpecked man is a man who wants to…
… run away from his duties. After all, his wife will tear apart his efforts and or redo them to her liking anyway. And off to the video games we go! Mommy, I mean, the wife, will do everything.
….and, Abeca. In absolutely NO way am I excusing Adam. He made his own choice. So too did Eve. Yes, Adam should have protected her, just like Eve shouldn’t have given the fruit to Adam, but BOTH failed. Eve blamed the snake. Adam blamed God and Eve.
So while you submit to your husband in all except what is dangerous for his soul and that of the children, many women so tightly monitor what ‘they’ think their husband should or shouldn’t do – that is they get naggy about something that, in truth, is not sinful – that he gives up doing everything. Men don’t want to live under the subjective rule of what their wife considers dangerous/sinful. Reminds them of their mothers and they rebel and/or reject it.
… own contribution to the downfall of the family, society, etc. Pointing fingers at a man while playing the hapless victim will only leave a woman unchanged and angered at the ‘plan of God’ who would deign to put such wastrels at the head of the family.
Such festering of poor me and it’s all their fault without self examination is poisonous and unproductive. For we cannot change others, only ourselves – and only then with the aid of grace and the submission necessary to allow grace to act.
No one is saying poor me or suggesting women play victim. Not conveying what you suggest. Moral relativism is alive and well. Common decency and common sense is lost. What you preach is not even biblical. I wish i had more time to dialogue but its a long conversation and i refuse to get in a long one here. Especially since things can be misconstrued. Thanks Ann for our dialogue. You are kind to share with me. Lets just agree to disagree on key points.
Ann Malley it goes to prove that if men took charge honorably, fearing the Lord, women would not be volnerable nor fester as you describe it “poor me” or be victims. They would feel protected, humbled by honorable witness of men. If we are to make men out of men, we can not embrace your point of view. The way you express yourself here, its coming accross as if you want woman to man up. Its not our duty to tough it out like a man should. Well this a good topic, I don’t think that as a woman, men will listen to us but I do pray for our men. I know that we need their leadership. Even if in this present time its diffult for them without neglecting that its also tough for women of faith too. Blessings. Have a happy thanksgiving. :)
Oh yea I see, I missed What Maryanne Said….OK I read your explanation. I need to read her comments in case you misunderstood her post. I am not following everything she said but she made sense on the ones I read. Sorry, I can’t keep up with all the posts, taking care of baby and being busy doesn’t’ allow me to catch up. Forgive me if I didn’t answer to all of your comments I don’t want to do anyone a disservice if I miss out on what your trying to convey, forgive me. Please. Thank you. Happy Thanksgiving!
Speaking of encouragement, California Catholic Daily, why you time out comments that people take a bit longer to compose than your system allows? Thinking through a comment and writing it clearly takes time. You are training us to be dashing off comments too quickly if we take time to be thoughtful. How does that possibly help make CCD a better place for the exchange of ideas, and how does it help make your commenters’ thoughts more coherent? If we are to benefit from one another’s comments, we want to read comments that are well thought out and well written, or otherwise we just mentally disregard them.
Father. My opinion after 85 years as a faithful Catholicis this: Catholic men are not being challenged to do something. That is what men do. Women talk about things. Men do things. They are different. Today’s homilies challenge no one to do anything, and so nothing is being done and men are out and about doing things outside of our Church. Priests have not/are not being trained to challenge men to something which they can accomplish and which challenges them as men. They do not want to talk about it. They want to do it. That is what men do. Until they are challenged, they will continue to be bored and leave the Church.
I’ve never been timed out on a comment but just as a suggestion, you can work around the problem by creating a Word document to compose your thoughts and then, when you are satisfied with them, select your Word text and copy it to the blog. I usually do that because I am such a lousy typist that I sometimes accidentally hit send before I’m ready to and post something that makes no sense. (That’s assuming my finished posts make sense. An assertion not based on evidence.)
Great idea, Gil! Thank you, and I shall do exactly that if I fear my comments won’t just fly from my fingers onto the page as fast as I can get them down! When I’m on fire, the fingers fly so fast they sometimes get ahead of my own awareness of what word I seem already to have chosen somewhere in my mind that hasn’t yet come into my conscious awareness! But most of the time I do require a bit of thinking and rethinking, and you know what they say, time flies when you’re having fun. Your method is excellent!
This wasn’t a problem in 1959. What happened?
Satan wants a war between men and women, and it is raging full force within the Church. My nephew, a priest , told me how the feminine led liturgical council practically forces him which Eucharistic Prayer to use. They also compose the bidding prayers, which are usually inane,tell him which Mass to celebrate, and control which hymns are to be sung. The liberal bishop backs the committee, so you can see why more young men do not want to be priests. Ave Maria Purrissima !
What you write is sad and unnecessary, Jesuita—-because this interference in the priest’s role is contrary to the General Instructions to the Roman Missal (GIRM) and the liturgical law of the Church. Would it bring such terrible consequences to the priest you mention if he “yessed to death” that “Liturgy Committee” and then went on to make the choices he alone has the right to make??
God bless Fr. Cavana Wallace, St. Margaret Parish Pastor. Confession is available 30 minutes before each Sunday Mass and continues during Mass. Sunday Masses are at:8:30 a.m.; 11:00 a.m; and a Traditional Latin Mass, Sunday, 6:00 p.m. Fr. Cavana urges people to receive the Eucharist on the tongue. There are shrines in the parish where people can light a candle. The parish is beautiful and inspires us to pray more.
John Patrick, you are right on! In the Roman Catholic parishes practicing the traditional Latin 7 Holy Sacraments and TLM, there’s no shortage of men in relation to women and children in the pews, just a shortage of many due to the deception that’s taken place in the V2 Church that criticizes us un-hip old “foggies”. Roman Catholic parishes practicing traditional latin welcome converts back to the true faith of Jesus Christ with all the Sacraments unchanged.
Yes we won’t provide worship service dancing, hugging, clapping, entertainment, and altar girls, and etc., but we do have our Lord in the Holy Eucharist reverently adorned in our tabernacles centered in our beautiful and inspiring altars and He is there with an open heart…
This would be a wonderful subject for research, Doug. If this is truly the case, it would add powerful support for the Traditional Latin Mass. I truly hope that someone will undertake this research. Is attendance by men truly as strong as we would hope? It shouldn’t take more than a few months to determine the actual facts, and I for one would support this research.
…it is truly the case and the only ‘study’ necessary is to attend to see for oneself.
I attend six different Catholic churches regularly, depending on where I am, and there I see plenty of men everywhere, beginning with the ushers. The research I am suggesting relates to Doug’s comments and cannot be proven or disproven even by attending six different churches. The point of the research would be to see if there is a difference in men’s attendance at Masses in Latin vs. the post-Vatican II Masses. Obviously attending one church would not fulfill even the basics of true research, Ann.
You may want to apply the basics of ‘true’ research when making comments about how United States business ventures didn’t start taking off until it yielded to the ‘woman’s’ touch, Maryanne.
So while you’re at you six different churches, you may want to attend an exclusively TLM parish. I wonder why you didn’t mention the abundance of men when responding to Father instead of lamenting how ‘women’ are blamed for the lack of male attendance.
Pretty inconsistent, Maryanne…. and unbelievable.
With the Church becoming more sissified each moment, you can see why men are abandoning Her in droves. Governor Chris Christi announced a day ago that Catholic Charities aids in the sanctuary city movement, and basically hides Syrian refugees (mostly Moslem) from the local government. Knights of old would not put up with this. Political correctness also is involved. Ave Maria Purrissima !
Sissified? With only men being our priests, bishops, cardinals, or Pope, I say that the word, which is a suspect word in the first place, derived from an assumption that I, as a woman, am a lesser being than virtually any male, is outrageous and furthermore, inapplicable. If we were talking about race, and mainly the white race had been persons of power and significance in the Church, and someone were to note that more and more black people were taking over since white people were absent, would you cringe if people complained, “This church is getting blacker every year?”
Yes, Maryanne, sissified. The only one convinced that female is lesser than male are those females who have been duped (…and quite handily) into thinking that they MUST assert themselves into traditionally masculine roles in order to have any value. Being truly female is to not be threatened by a man acting as a man should. To include leading his family and leading within the Church. (Remember, Christ says that leadership is not ‘lording it over others’, but rather being the servant. Keep your perspective. Cut it with the social engineering that pits women against themselves and their own nature. It’s the devil who exploits the sins of men to encourage women to rebellion against God’s order.)
Everything has its proper time…
…and place.
Be careful of making a god out of the women’s ‘rights’ movement. Sadly, that pandering to sensibilities has left many an ‘apostle’ chasing after the crowd who left Christ because His teaching was too hard. Some say that it is a duty to chase down the crowd. But at what cost, Maryanne? Leaving Christ behind and demonstrating, by one’s actions, that the teaching is too hard.
Excellent responses, Ann Malley! Over the years some dissenters have become quite adept at throwing out some Traditional sounding hooks/crumbs in order to move another agenda. These duplicitous change agents are predators to the un-catechized and trusting sheep.
You will know them by the gently slipping in comments regarding the pre-canonization of their own perceived fruits or inferences that women are second class citizens in the Catholic Church. You will also know them by un-masking the obvious vitriol shown to very faithful priests.
…this country has been steeped in feminism and politispeak for so long many don’t even recognize they’ve been infected.
The old ploy of the Devil of making what is evil appear good is certainly at play. Just think, the ‘women’s’ movement was once directed at helping women to stand up against abusive husbands who would beat them, the kids, and squander the family funds on booze.
Now that same ‘movement’ is used to kill children in the womb, emasculate men to a mere redundancy, and eliminate any/all clear speech for fear of being mean to someone. Methinks the whole Church would benefit from a mandatory, properly executed 30-Day Ignatian Retreat.
Yes, Ann, a retreat would be good for everyone. Especially those who are enraged by simple truths. Following Jesus is a challenging endeavor indeed, and we all need to take time to think about even our very thoughts, to say nothing of our words and deeds, which are sometimes harsh, even angry and unfair, and worst of all, untruthful.
In other words, Maryanne, a 30 Day Ignatian retreat would have you examining your own passive aggressive rage at Fr. Perozich’s simple expression of the TRUTH regarding men and the effects of ‘the women’s touch’ with regard to mass attendance.
Doug, statements like: “parishes practicing traditional latin welcome converts back to the true faith of Jesus Christ” are what drive men and women away from the Church. “My Mass is better than your Mass, nienner, nienner, nienner!” The Mass is the Mass, in either form. The people attend are worshiping God and receiving His body and blood, in either form. Stop with the “were better than you” stuff. Every time you say these kind of things you send someone else away from the Church. What man would want to be involved with people talking the way you and your cohorts do? Christ would not say things like that.
Bob One what you cannot stand is that so called reforms of past 50 years are what has caused the man shortage. Doug for all intents and purposes is right. I was tired of going to mass and being lead by a gay priest with an altar be over run by clipped haired harridans in pant suits. And yes this partly the womans fault you nag us during the week about God knows what and now you try bossing us around at mass, at least for the NO crowd. No wonder most guys would rather sleep in.
Canisius, I can’t imagine how awful your life must be. Women bossing you around all week, then women in Church, then women who are smart doing smart things, etc. I know why you want to go back to the old days when women (some nuns) ran the school, took care of the Altar, washed the linens, taught CCD after school, ran the fund-raisers, and generally ran everything but the liturgy. Oh wait, I forgot the women who set the schedules for the Priests, told them whom to visit in the hospital and homes, prepared their meals, etc. Oh wait, I grew up in the 40-50s, and if you think there weren’t homosexual priest back then, you weren’t paying attention.
You are right Bob One, but I get through life relying on myself and no one but myself. I am sure that there were gay priests back in the 40-50’s but they were not running rampant through the Church like now.
So, Bob One, the real reason for your supposedly more chaaaaritable Christ-like position regarding women is so that you can condescendingly snark at Canisius and any others, with your superior graces of the Holy Spirit?
Steve, liberals think they are superior to all of us…hence the path of destruction they leave…
There’s a word for that, Canisius. It’s called misogyny.
Oh yes another primary word from the liberal lexicon….equal to the Word of God Himself in the corrupt liberal mind
The mass is obviously not the mass in either form when it comes to the influence exerted. The fruits speak for themselves, Bob One. Your continued dissembling that it is a matter of ‘we’re better than you’ is a distraction to keep people away from tasting that which will ultimately feed their souls. Shame on you. Thinking people, men among them, understand this.
Your fear that stating the truth is what drives men and women away from mass is exactly what has emptied many a diocesan NO chapel as the ‘TRUTH’ is hidden or not spoken of out of fear. The result? Empty pews.
The scare tactic of, “… Every time you say these kind of things you send someone else away from the Church,” is just as weighty as, “…every time a…
… a bell rings an angel gets his wings.”
Please, let’s GROW UP. Christ is the Truth and speaks it fully – manfully. Perhaps we should all try that instead of using scare tactics to hamstring fellows and play the doe-eyed whosehewhatsit.
If the “the Mass is the Mass in either form,” then why did they change it? The reformers themselves would never agree with that ridiculous statement. They weren’t wasting their time, they were engineering a revolution. Connect the dots.
The Mass has changed DOZENS of times, and depending on how you count it, HUNDREDS of times. It’s just that you don’t like this particular change that you cast doubts on the Mass.
I do not deny that the N.O. is sacramentally valid. But the Novus Ordo projects a distortion of the faith. Its principle author, Abp. Bugnini, was later exposed as a Freemason. There are innumerable priests who will attest that the N.O. wreaks havoc with their interior lives. I see no reason to defend this rupture with the past. Whether I like it or not should not concern people- but once something is pointed out, they owe it to themselves to investigate and study independently, not just mindlessly ignore the warning and attack the messenger.
The person responsible for the promulgation of the Mass of Paul VI is not Bugnini, it is Blessed Pope Paul VI, and through the minor revisions since and the fact that they celebrated it and defended it, Pope John Paul I, Pope Saint John Paul II, Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, and Pope Francis. They have told you explicitly that this mass is not a rupture with the past. It is the Pope, not some Archbishop consultant, who is responsible for this beautiful Mass, which seeks to mend fences with the past, and is in many ways MORE historical than the mass of 1962. You say the Mass is valid, but you destroy it with your evil words.
In past centuries, before the shabby modern era– great scholars would take many long years, to carefully examine a subject, and work with it! They did not simply do some goofball thing– like hold a quick Council, such as Vatican II– and end up with ridiculous and embarrassing results!! No way! They could never respect themselves, and would also fear that God would be greatly offended! And everyone would just laugh at them, as if they were no good at all! Vatican II and all its results– are a DISASTER!!
Judge by the fruits. We can be told many things, but the truth will always out by way of the results. The fact that prelates feel compelled to keep ‘telling’ anyone it is not a rupture rather underscores the rupture.
As for Bugnini, the NO was his brainchild. A point easily researched.
And the only fence mending at play is that with the world and worldly principles. That’s why folks don’t believe, don’t go to mass, etc,etc, etc.
Only a delusional homosexual like YFC would believe that Bugnini had nothing to do with the NO and that its beautiful. YFC we know you hate the TLM, but it will outlast the NO nonsense…
Christ was the brainchild. Let’s give credit where credit is due.
Canisus, please do not lie about what I write. Also please – my sexual orientation has ZERO to do with this conversation. Do you lie because you are heterosexual?
I said Bugnigni did not PROMULGATE the mass. That was the POPE who PROMULGATED it. I NEVER said that Bugnini had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE NEW MASS.
Actually the NO was an “idea” from ancient times, and the new litugrical movement began in the 19th century. The first fruits of that liturgical movement were seen in changes to the mass that even predated Vatican II. Pius XII was a major proponent of liturgical reform, and he is the one who set in motion the changes that have come since. See for example this book review. https://www.newoxfordreview.org/reviews.jsp?did=0311-sippo
You orientation has everything to do with it YFC, you rebel against the Logos, that’s was homosexuality is.. rebellion and hatred for God’s order.
No, I’m sorry you are wrong, Canisius, and you are actually contradicting Church teaching. Homosexuality is not a rebellion, it is an unchosen state, not infrequent, and morally neutral. It has zero to do with hating God or his order.
Please read your Catholic Catechism.
Your ongoing hatred for gays (homophobia) and women (mysogeny) is quite unbecoming of yourself and the Church.
‘Annibale Bugnini’s NO liturgy “was an idea from ancient times” (sic)’
It is time to lay to rest the nonsense that the NO liturgy constructed by Bugnini and his associates has anything to do with “ancient times”—a false idea known as archaelogism. This fake idea is most often associated with the man-made construction of the 2nd Eucharistic Prayer, mistakenly “attributed to St. Hippolytus” (d.235).
Bugnini claimed to have taken a prayer from Hippolytus and asserted, without any scholarly support, that it was an anaphora or Eucharistic prayer, which he then re-constructed according to his liking to form EPII. The fact is, the Consilium’s proceedings or notes have been lost, destroyed, or hidden (cf. Dr. Robert…
hidden (cf. Dr. Robert DeMattei) —to evade scrutiny of exactly what “research” Bugnini allegedly did. Based on his now documented, often mis-representation of “ancient sources”, or “archaeologism”, it is a forgery.
Now, the 1969 NO liturgy wasn’t the first time that Bugnini simply made things up to change the liturgy. Our fellow Catholics should note (if they wanted the truth) the landmark scholarly work by Fr. Stefano Carusi, “From Liturgy to Theology by way of the Statements of Certain Leading Thinkers (Annibale Bugnini, Carlo Braga, Ferdinando Antonelli) (2010, the journal “Disputationes Theologicae). You may note that the article (Mar. 2011, Arthur Sippo review) referenced above in New Oxford Review is a defense of…
You may note that the article (Mar. 2011, Arthur Sippo review) referenced above in New Oxford Review is a defense of Bugnini’s collaborator Antonelli. Antonelli was a close and supportive associate of Bugnini. You should also be chary of anyone, cf. Sippo, who refers tendentiously to “radical traditionalists”—no agenda there, is there?
What Carusi’s research demonstrates is that Bugnini’s Reform of the Holy Week liturgy employed the same false methods of “alleged ancient texts”—Bugnini’s mysterious “archaeologism”—which was only designed to debunk the Traditional Latin Mass (Bugnini’s facts, as Carusi whos, never could be referenced, even fooling Pius XII for some time, about his false scholarship).
Yes, aspects of a false liturgical movement DID start in the 1950’s, prior to V2, and it took it over: it flowered in full at the Council. It is also why Pius XII tried to rein in the growing errors of the “liturgical movement” later during his pontificate ( Address of Pope Pius XII to the International Congress on Pastoral Liturgy, Sept 22, 1956).
Now, another error is to claim “because Paul VI approved the New Mass, that is that, and we have to observe it, because the Pope is infallible.” No: not if the pope was deceived, as documented below, as Fr. Stefano Carusi observes was the modus operandi of Bugnini and his associates to claim “ancient sources”, archaeologism, to displace the Traditional Latin Mass.
In fact, the prayers of the TLM are documented (and therefore pre-exist) St. Ambrose (De Sacramentis, ca 390 AD): “Quam oblationem,” “Qui pridie,” “Unde et memores,” “Supra quae,” and “Supplices te rogamus” of the Canon. Who has the true traditional Mass of the Church, St. Ambrose, or Bugnini, Antonelli and associates? You decide.
If a pope is led into error by mis-information (such as the mis-information from the 2nd session of the 4th Council of Constantinople (8th Council Const. in the Orthodox Church), 879-880 AD, it can be later corrected.
In fact, for nearly two centuries, P. John VIII approved, based on mis-information, the acts of the 2nd sesson of the Council: it condemned the formula we now believe, called the Filioque formula. It finally was corrected in 11th century—but for 200 years (nearly) a matter we now believe was erroneously condemned.
In the same way, the radical de- and re-construction of the New Liturgy can be corrected, and will be in the future, should the Church exist that long (perhaps Our Lord is coming sooner than we…
Now, extensive documentation of the essential same structure of the TLM goes back at least to St. Ambrose; You can see objectively the TLM in documentation: The “Stowe Missal” (named for the Irish library collection: at the Royal Irish Academy, Dublin) or sacramentary, dates from the 600’s-700’s: it has virtually the complete Roman Canon and Mass of the TLM also.
We also have the Gelasian and Verona Sacramentaries (ca. 550-700 AD) which contain the essential elements of the same, offices, chants, antiphons included, of TLM that existed up til 1969.
And what is the evidence for the “Novus Ordo” Mass’ antiquity? [Crickets, this is your cue.]
Do you hear the crickets now, too?
In the modern era, crazy liberal maniacs, with no talent, have made a SERIOUS WRECK to many fields! The only fields they cannot touch, are science and math, which are purely objective. The modern era is dehumanized seriously, and its culture, with serious contributions from a great many centuries– has been crazily, thoughtlessly, and stupidly ripped to pieces!! “The Emperor truly has no clothes on!” And the churches, as well as serious art, architecture, music, literature, philosophy, and etc.– are JUST TERRIBLE!! Most areas of our modern culture– are REALLY WORSE THAN HORRIBLE!! And we all SUFFER,, because of it!
NO YFC you are wrong… homosexuality is rebellion against God… as for hatred, “homophobia” is not real; it’s just a made up word by sodomites…
In Bob One’s first comment he asked “why?” and then answered “I don’t know the answer, I only have opinions.” Now he appears to have answers: he is sure Doug is wrong and he knows what Christ would say. Maybe Bob One should keep his opinions to himself and look for answers in silence.
Bob One, Sorry to inform you, but what you say is not true. Not only was the TLM diluted to the void of grace man-centered NO worship service, but so were all of the 7 Holy Sacraments, the first to be changed that of Priestly Ordinations and Episcopal Consecrations, a very devious deed. How can a bunch of messers perform as priests?
Bob, How do you know what our Lord would not criticize the V2 Church? It has changed so much of His Ways. The V2 Church doesn’t follow Roman Catholic tradition as instituted by our Lord Jesus Christ! What did our Lord do and say to those outside of the temple? On multiple occasions did not our Lord criticize the Pharisees for their not following God the Father? The V2 Church leaders are no different than the Pharisees, misleading the faithful these last 50 years, masquerading and hiding in the vestments of their predecessors and offices in the Vatican and V2 parishes. People need to remove their blindfolds, face the truth, repent, and return to the Roman Catholic parishes practicing tradition, that is only where the true 7 holy…
ChurchMilitant.com is excited to announce that we are in the process of developing such a resistance movement as we speak, using the powerful tool of the Internet and social media.
We are still working on the final development of how all this will pull together and will have details in the coming days and weeks, but there is no doubt the time has come to break the enemy’s strategy of “isolate and defeat,” which has proven so effective in its demoralization of the faithful.
With the world sinking into a new age of darkness, it is indeed time for the spirit of St. Benedict to arise anew and refreshed.
Just as St. Benedict looked at the world and formed a resistance movement to it, so too must we in our own Dark Ages do the same…
The most important response is (men) don’t feel they “get anything out of the Mass.”
Could it be that today’s Mass has nothing to offer? In the last 2000 years of Catholic history what could be the most important change?
Lex orandi, lex credendi.
All liturgical abuses are against the law of the Church. However, many bishops and those in high places adore the abuses and want everything that is CATHOLIC out of the Mass. They could care less about what the GIRM says. No joke ! Ave Maria Purrissima !
A good father, priest, teacher, or public leader, always seeks to imitate Christian virtues. His authority role is not for himself, but a responsibility to lead, guide, help, nurture, and protect others! He must be brave, strong, make good decisions and stick by them, acting with firmness and justice, not blind emotion– and must also be Christ-like in love, mercy, and humility, too! It takes a lot, to make a good man, and to make a good priest, to lead others to Christ!
Good fathers, and good priests, teachers, and public leaders, are REPULSED by libertarian “hippie freedoms!” Such immature ideas are for juveniles, who need correction! Instead of so-called “babyish freedoms,” a good man wants independence, responsibility, self-confidence, and self-respect! He wants to NATURALLY grow up, realistically KNOW HIMSELF, all his strengths and weaknesses– and deal with the world realistically– and become a fully mature, capable, independent, self-confident, self-respecting MAN!!
Do you mean libertine ? Libertarians are for less government intrusion and more personal responsibility .Some of us are Catholic and embrace the Tridentine Mass FYI.
Here is what the current Archbishop of Philadelphia said: ” “Both Lepanto and Church Militant sow division wherever they tread. They do not seem to acknowledge the need to work with civic society and its representatives on a project like the World Meeting of Families. And we are not going to spend/waste time arguing with them. They are sincere, but also destructive. No one on our leadership team supports abortion or Planned Parenthood” – Abp. Charles Chaput.”
And, Archbishop Chaput who is regarded as slightly more conservative than the average American prelate, also has said that the “disordered” language regarding homosexual persons doesn’t adequately convey Church teaching.
Some of the men who are absent from the pews are those men who are themselves gay, who have gay brothers or sisters, or gay children or gay parents. They are disgusted by the use of “disordered” to describe themselves and their family.
“… They are disgusted by the use of “disordered” to describe themselves and their family.”
YFC, with all due respect, we are told that those who love brother, sister, etc more than God are not worthy. Homsexual sexual relations are disordered. That is reality. Much like it is a reality to say that one who has a penchant for cheating on their spouse and is repeat adulterer or one who is the child of adultery must understand what the Church teaches.
To conflate the person with the activity first by calling one, “gay”, as if sexuality identifies one is to misunderstand the nature of grace which treats the man distinctly from his actions.
In truth, many Catholics are disgusted by the pandering to such false assertions if…
…assertions if only to keep people in the pews in favor of teaching the Faith.
But you have said it. Many are not in the pews because modern thought has led them to believe that they ARE their sins and are subsequently put off by hearing the truth.
Anne – You have been put in your place by an Anonymous Homosex Harpy Troll with “a lot more knowledge and experience with the subject than you have…” – at lease according to the Anonymous Troll.
Said ‘Subject’ of course being the physically harmful, pathological disease spreading, Misandry promoting agenda of the ‘big happy’ Gaystapo.
And just in case the point hasn’t been driven home – Always Remember that light hearted and gaily happy people are just plain Better than their rigidly narrow linear targets….
Ask Any ‘Anonymous’ Resident Harpy Troll too craven to even sign their own name – which transparent candor (patterned after POTUS Barry ‘on the down low soetoro’) Proves that You Can ‘Trust; Them. Ahem
Ann Malley, with all due respect, I have a lot more knowledge and experience with the subject than you have. EVERYONE has a sexual orientation. Gay, straight, bi, asexual, etc. It is an ORIENTATION, and as such, it is morally neutral. It is not identifying a person with a sin anymore than a straight person is being identified with a sin. The Church actually acknowledges this. It makes it clear that gay people do not choose their sexual orientation anymore than straight people do.
YFC, regardless of your experience, you keep associating behavior with the individual. That’s got to stop. We are all inclined in different ways to do that which is not as it should be. We all hear things that challenge us.
If you truly want those with same sex issues to be treated ‘the same’ then stop trying to hard to be treated differently. You’re working against yourself if mere integration, and not acceptance of sinful behavior, is your goal.
Yes we must all understand YFC knows more about everything than anyone..
….he’s just more motivated to change everything. But such is the case with agitators. The ‘change’ movement is fueled by the old serpent who would provide any and all excuses to turn from God’s plan to …. the new and improved mercy, justice without justice, love without true love.
Holding the line – much like in a war situation when one is constantly being baited – is often boring as hell, but must be done. That’s why any towing of the Catholic line gets the legions so frustrated, no matter what their name.
Bob One, that is because Abp Chaput was warned in advance that his chosen co-chair for World Family Day supported the mortal sin of homosexual acts prior to World Family Day.
Then Abp Chaput made that public comment.
And then Mayor Nutter at World Family Day spoke against Church teaching and in favor of homosexual marriage.
The Abp owes a public apology to ChurchMilitant and Lepanto.
https://www.ncregister.com/blog/matthew-archbold/mayor-nutter-attempts-to-hijack-papal-appearance-to-tout-lgbt-rights
Bob One, so citing that “Lepanto Institute” sows division is a good way to avoid the facts that they clearly reference, right? Attack the messenger, I understand.
The voluminously documented facts by LI that you can’t answer, about Saul Alinsky’s completely successful penetration of Catholic social services and the Campaign for Human Development, you wish to avoid; or that his successor front-groups carry on their work. Did you read the article, Bob One?
Bob One, can you also answer why, and how, Saul Alinsky, an avowed bitter atheist, was awarded the “Pacem In Terris” Award of 1969, as one representing the social justice mission of the Catholic Church? Oh, you can’t?
Once again, this is the utterly damning article regarding the atheist-socialist invasion of Catholic social services, an article first-referenced by Catherine:
The Marxist Core of the Catholic Campaign for Human Development
https://www.lepantoinstitute.org/cchd/the-marxist-core-of-the-catholic-campaign-for-human-development/
Steve, I went to the link to lepantoninstitute to see what they had to say. Startlingly in-depth research and reporting. I have often visited the Vortex web site as well. If these groups can do this kind of vetting I would imagine the Catholic welfare groups could do the same thing. Would that make a difference in the awards that are given out? I doubt it, and in some cases I’m not sure that it should. If an agency is headed by someone who doesn’t support Catholic teaching, does that eliminate a good agency’s work from a monetary award? Is it different if the agency espouses non-catholic action? Likely!
Bob One, how is it pray tell that Saul Alinsky got the prestigious “Pacem in Terris” award (1969) for Catholic social justice? Could you please ‘splain it?
“? I doubt it, and in some cases I’m not sure that it should.” perfect example of the moral relativism of the Left
By the way, the rest of the story of (at least) Lepanto Institute’s conflict is actually with the Great Archdiocese of Philadelphia Chancery Office, which is of course the Very Voice of God Himself:
https://www.renewamerica.com/columns/abbott/150827
It turns out that the PA governor Tom Wolf was to be co-chair (along with aptly named Phillie mayor Michael Nutter) at the diocese-supported “World Meeting of Families”, both of whom have established they are both stridently pro-abortion. How so? Tom Wolf actually served as an abortion escort (Isnt that ipso facto excommunication, for aiding in an abortion? (see Canon 1398, New Code).
Bob One, what is your (I am sure) well-thought-out position supporting pro-abort politicians…
Bob One, he is an establishment cardinal who wont’ even acknowledge what’s gone wrong in the last 50 years (neither will you). He claims they are destructive because they shine the light on the problem. Chaput ignores at his own peril much like the Boston Archdiocese who ignored the homosexual-child rape that went on for decades..
Your correct, Canisius, because I don’t believe that the last 50 years have been destructive to the church. The Church has grown greatly, albeit with an influx of immigrants. The Church is not what it was 50 years ago, but that was the whole idea of VII. Bring about change, even a revolution in the Church, especially the hierarchy. (It seems like it is time to do it again). Back in the 60s people were fed up with priests and bishops who thought they were God instead of servants of God. They were fed up with the rules approach to faith, the mind-control exerted by the parish, etc. It really was time to throw open the window and let in some fresh air. It looks like they didn’t open them enough to finish the job..
Only a liberal fool would believe the last 50 years have been good for the Church. No Bob One there is now a counter revolution in full swing, Francis is dying gasp of the corrupt spirit of Vatican 2. We are now shutting the window and stopping the poisonous fumes that have corrupted the Church. We will finally see the toppling of the gay priests, will rip apart the rainbow flags that fly on the altar, we will place Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament in place of prominence. We will smash the revolutionaries, we will chase out the lesbian man hating nuns. We the traditionalists, will get our Church back. Because it is our orders that are growing, it is our parishes that have the young large families, it is our faithful who understand…
“I don’t believe that the last 50 years have been destructive to the church. The Church has grown greatly, albeit with an influx of immigrants…”–Bob One
Bob One, this is getting surreal (your thinking, that is): Pew Data shows 11 million US Catholics have left the faith since 2000, and at least 3 million from approx. 2012. CARA Georgetown shows the precipitous undeniable drop in all categories — priests, sisters, hospitals, baptisms, sacraments— you name it — since 1965 through 2014:
https://cara.georgetown.edu/caraservices/requestedchurchstats.html
Bookmark this site, Bob One, and read it every morning before you pray, will you? The disconnect with the reality is jaw-dropping. In fact, the death spiral of the…
In fact, the death spiral of the Catholic Church was what the Sahnkt Gallen group used to intimidate P. Benedict XVI into resigning, blaming him for their V2-intoxicated collapse. Christendom is mightily threatened in every country, esp. here, and the episcopacy is still re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
Bob One, Catholic immigrants were Catholic prior to their immigration.
Their faith has little to do with the lousy catechesis of many US Bishops and their Priests.
Once in the USA, the second generation is falling away from the Church just as quickly as the rest of the US population.
Further after becoming citizens many immigrants VOTE for the Party of Death which supports – abortion, euthanasia, sex change operations and hormones for life – all at taxpayer expense. And gay marriage.
I understand the Mass should appeal to woman since they are the majority, and I want my wife and children happy on Sunday. However it would be nice if there were a some token Masses geared to business men either early morning before work, or at lunch.
I dont expect it to get better. There are more fleshly temptations gnawing at our men. With pornography and many other fleshly temptations that our men are being enslaved with, they are losing site of what they’re called out to be. God bless our men with what ia needed to help them grow more virtuous.
…if the men of pagan Rome and the ancient world -rife with slave markets wherein naked women were regularly solid at public auction and whore houses abounded and pedophilia was acceptable – can be evangelized by the hard truth, so too can the men of today, Abeca.
That is why what the Church offers needs to be counter culture and Christ centered in every way. Not the presentation of Christ as some wimpy waif, submitting to the cross like an anemic with no strength to fight back. Rather Our Lord should be presented – in images and the delivery of doctrine – as He is/was. Strong, capable, a man in his prime, fully able to strike back, but unwilling to do so as the sacrifice of His flesh was what was required for those He loves.
Interesting. Well they did not have the internet, cell phones etc. A monstrosity to say the least. Modern comforts all dummy downing brains. No one knows the past but today we d
Yes, Abeca, we know the past if we study it. Porn and filthy sex centered culture, grotesque and cruel dismissal of human life to include abortion, baby killing, free sex etc is nothing new. The novelty you are experiencing is that this country, Western Culture, turned away from this and rejected it. That rejection has now changed to an embrace.
As to modern comforts, absolutely they make a body soft. Much like ancient Rome left the Roman people soft – recall their society was based on a slave society. Other people there to do everything and anything for you.
Ok Ann Malley nothing new and this issue is nothing new either. Never in the history of the USA had we had legalized abortion on demand and now gay marraige. But i do not deny how worst society has gotten even with internet. Gossip travels much faster, at a pace in which our church cant keep up. Our men need to hold themselves accountable. While we woman seek to raise our sons with charactor and integrity, God fearing, they still need men role models to lead by example. Its not in our hands, we just need to be holy. Women of faith and their children are made volnerable to too many injustices when men of faith easily get tempted and turn their backs on God.
….there was homosexual ‘marriage’ in ancient Rome, Abeca. That is what I’m saying. The ‘easily tempted’ needs to be combated by being truthful and not pretending that men today have it any harder than men who were reared in grotesque pagan filth. (Hence Fr. Perozich’s call for a more straight-on masculine message directed toward MEN in the Church. Not catering to the feminine.)
In other words, straight on Catholic TRUTH and the challenge of men to live it by way of grace drug men up from the sewer before. It can and will happen again. But it cannot happen when leadership plays tenderfoot with the culture and pretends that this is something completely new and unseen. It isn’t.
Western Society is increasingly evil and lax…
…because Catholics stopped being Catholic and chose compromise instead. Getting along. Politics. Making money. Appeasing feminism etc.
It’s a rerun of Macabees, Abeca, wherein the chosen people of God allowed idols into Jerusalem and were duly punished for it. So, yes, be a woman of Faith. But don’t get muddled into thinking that our times are the greatest of all evils or else you’ll run the risk of tripping yourself up in fear and despair. Dangerous combo.
Pray, but pray with confidence as if God has already turned our men around. Encouraging comments that undermine those of Fr. Perozich is not the way to help.
As for fear of gossip, don’t let that keep you from using the Internet for good. Anything can be used for…
evil, Abeca. Just look at how Fr. Perozich’s comments, simple and true, were attacked as being somehow anti-woman and by way of a false narrative. (The US didn’t begin to grow in the world market because of a woman’s touch. That’s bull.)
Men are different than women, but both are equal in being special creations of God. Because of communism, the roles of men and women are being mixed, and chaos is the result. Satan and his stooges are joyful that this battle is being waged, while souls are going to Hell. Men create and women nurture. THAT is how God planned it. Our society is ending because of jealously. Never before have women wanted men’s jobs, but now it is common. Ave Maria Purrissima !
Now, extensive documentation of the essential same structure of the TLM goes back at least to St. Ambrose; You can see objectively the TLM in documentation: The “Stowe Missal” (named for the Irish library collection: at the Royal Irish Academy, Dublin) or sacramentary, dates from the 600’s-700’s: it has virtually the complete Roman Canon and Mass of the TLM also.
We also have the Gelasian and Verona Sacramentaries (ca. 550-700 AD) which contain the essential elements of the same, offices, chants, antiphons included, of TLM that existed up til 1969.
And what is the evidence for the “Novus Ordo” Mass’ antiquity? [Crickets, this is your cue.]
Do you hear the crickets now, too?
In 1947 the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered: feverish excitement fired the imaginations of modernist and rational-atheists: Throughout the 1950’s, it was thought that these scrolls would “disprove” the Bible. “Scripture scholars”, most notably, Augustin Bea, a close associate of Bugnini, confessor to Pius XII (who we now know apparently “informed” PXII of all of Bugnini’s “discoveries”, this according to Bugnini himself in his memoirs, “The Reform of the Liturgy, 1948-1975”—wouldn’t it be fascinating to know exactly of what he was [dis]informing the pontiff?) , was closely advised by Dominican Roland de Vaux of the discoveries.
Bea was fired with the idea of archaelogism
—“ancient truths, hidden for thousands of years, now…
..revealed, to change our entire belief and practices.
In fact, we now know the opposite has occurred: the Scroll of Isaiah (Dead Sea Scrolls) was found to be virtually the same as our earliest Bible codices. Quotations of the Book of Hosea within a commentary are also the same. What is remarkable is the preservation of ancient truths—unlike our modern era dedicated to revolutionary, endless change and destruction.
A similar matter occurred with Nag Hammadi (1945) and its codices: it was found that there was a good reason that the Church excluded the Gospel of Thomas and the many other Gnostic books from the Canon of Scriptures.
It is the same with the claim of a “lost Eucharistic prayer” of Hippolytus (d. 258): it was never lost in this case, because it never existed. Hippolytus’ writings are fragmentary at best: but there is no-zero-nada-zilch documentation of a “parallel” anaphora of S. Hippolytus, parallel and “older” than the TLM and its Roman Canon, or unchanging rule actually being used (cf. Lawrence J. Johnson, “Worship in the Early Church: An Anthology of Historical Sources”).
From there, you might as well go to examining the New Mass: although it is valid, if the priest celebrates it intending as the Church has always intended, it is almost entirely different:
* Entrance Rites – Prayers at Foot of Altar – deleted
* Collect and other prayers – Sunday, major feasts – mostly retained
* Readings: highly altered. Gospel mostly the same TLM vs. N.O.
* Offertory – deleted. Prep of Gifts – created/substituted
* Prefaces – re-written, for most part
* Canon – almost always replaced by 3 Bugnini-constructed EP’s
* Lord Prayer and Communion Rite. somewhat same
* Final blessing – somewhat same, placeat tibi prayer eliminated
If you look at these 8 categories, 4 of them have…
Of these 8 somewhat arbitrary categories, 4 have been deleted or essentially eliminated: 50%. Was that a passing grade where our fellow Catholics went to school? If you buy milk that is 50% pure, is that milk you want to drink?
This requires intellectual intestinal fortitude to answer these questions for oneself, with all respect to papal pronouncements of official policy “that the liturgy has not been ruptured”. Fine: now can we deal with the facts? Good.
Fr. Joseph Gélineau S.J., a Council peritus and liberal apologist for the new liturgy, states in his book “Demain la Liturgie” (1976, p.77-8): “To tell the truth, it is a different liturgy of the Mass. This needs to be said without ambiguity. The Roman rite as we knew it no longer exists. It has been destroyed… [the former edifice]… appears to-day either as a ruin, or the partial substructure of a different building.”
Klaus Gamber, eyewitness to V2, liturgy expert (excluded however from the Consilium), who has said the Missal of 1965 was the Council’s intention of the “revised” liturgy said:
““..{T]he liturgical reform welcomed with so much idealism and hope by many priests and lay people alike has turned out to be a liturgical destruction of startling proportions – a debacle worsening with each passing year.” Klaus Gamber, The Reform of the Roman Liturgy, Ch. 1
“The Roman Liturgy, in its simple, plain forms, which originated in early Christianity, has remained almost unchanged for centuries. There is no question that the Roman Liturgy [the TLM] is the oldest Christian Rite.” -Gamber, op cit
Here are the results of my unscientific poll conducted by interviewing 10 of my male friends ages 20 to 70 regarding the reasons they no longer attend Mass or identify themselves as Catholics. The most frequent response was the scandals in the Church (sexual and financial). Other reasons included the following: hypocrisy of Church leaders (not practicing what they preach), e.g. why does our local Bishop live in a large mansion in a very nice neighborhood and have a travel trailer when he is telling his flock to live frugally and give to the poor?, negative experiences with a priest of church employee, lack of effort on the part of the Church to be relevant to the modern world and the Church’s teaching regarding divorce. No one…
Fabio ask my protestant friends, some are enduring much worst. We still contain the wholeness of truth dont forget that.
Thanks Abecca. Not one of the men I interviewed longed for a return to the TLM or traditional music. All spoke very positively of Pope Francis!
” All spoke very positively of Pope Francis!” I do not believe those men are paying very close attention…
All spoke positively of Francis and yet are not practicing the faith. As for longing for the TLM and traditional music, that’s not it, Bob. It’s what the TLM and traditional music and full Catholic practice in being challenged with the hard truths and solemnity mean. TLM and traditional music are just the outward representation of these truths.
Excellent, Ann Malley! Thank you, that was beautifully conveyed! As time passes, the faithful priests will all eventually see this truth. The hard truths have been sorely neglected and avoided for years and now we even see the slow introducing of the idea of the married priesthood as a solution to this great void. They’re trying to diminish or eradicate the damage done from the homosexual, sex scourge, within the church, instead of embracing, promoting, defending and upholding ALL of the hard teachings. Stubbornly ignoring the obvious while thinking that heterosexual marital relations/married priests, are the solution.
….and the next – ooooo – crisis will be married priests who are found to cheat on their wives or divorce or use birth control because – well – it’s just too expensive to support all these children. Then there will have to be a salary for priest’s wives, a ‘role’.
It’s sickening, Catherine, the lies, the spin, the cowardice and the rampant disinformation. Much like the assertion that women being involved in Church matters has anything whatsoever about a woman’s need to find dignity. That’s disgusting as it implies that women previously had no dignity. That’s no longer women hating on men, but women hating on ‘being’ women. Quite the master stroke.
God bless and Happy Thanksgiving. The tide is turning.
Catherine good points. I think that if they encouraged the CCC and the bible more, parishes that do and their pastor is holy, you see more men take interest.
“It’s sickening, Catherine, the lies, the spin, the cowardice and the rampant disinformation. Much like the assertion that women being involved in Church matters has anything whatsoever about a woman’s need to find dignity.”
Thank you, Ann Malley, for seeing through the strategic distractions and spin! God bless you!
Liberals want their liberty from God’s Laws, Commandments, and Ways! He gives them their liberties to fall, and depart from Him. As always, God will be just in the end, opening the Gates of Heaven to those that showed they truly love Him by obeying Him in all His Ways, as only they are worthy of living eternally with Him in Heaven. Those that prefer to chart their own course like homosexuals, murderers, fornicators, and adulterers who offend God, well good luck with their just reward! These are all works of the devil. God does not create people to do evil, i.e. to offend Himself! That is mindless, absurd, illogical, and devil-thought.
Since the V2 Church in practice doesn’t stand-up for what Christ-taught, appearing like a hypocrisy, is it any wonder that men have grown disheartened, have no known church (to them) to turn to and look up to? The V2 church pontiffs and magesterium have continuously trashed traditional Roman Catholicism morals and values for 50 years heralded by Paul the VIth’s verbal order in a papal audience to end the TLM back in November 1969. The good news is Christ keeps His promise to be with and in His Roman Catholic Churches practicing the Latin traditions daily to the end of time! It’s not a matter of who’s better, it is a matter of who instituted them! RC Latin Traditional Sacraments — God of course, and the V2 church celebrations –…
It amazes me how blind, close-minded, and yet deceiving the liberals can be. For those advocating the approval of sin in the church since it feels good to them and defying God will somehow get Him to come around and change His mind, only goes to show their arrogance and stupidity. They really don’t know and love Him. And they fall so easily to the devil’s way of thinking.
We need also to concern ourselves with the women and children who are most definitely missing in the pews by the thousands. The tragic rate of non-practicing, nominal, uncatechized, and fallen-away Catholics is higher in our times than, if I am ready history correctly, has ever been the case in generations past. As far as I can tell, only in Africa and China are the numbers rising, and in China some are suffering and even dying for their faith. In our nation, our external culture and even our internal culture are both in chaos. A return to true traditional Catholic values is needed desperately and swiftly. And dignity for all.
“… A return to true traditional Catholic values is needed desperately and swiftly.”
Which is why there needs to be an emphasis on bringing MEN back into Church. Men are the heads of families, Maryanne. When the man fails to lead, the family falls to the wayside. (…just like when the man fails to take responsibility for his procreation, the woman is put in dire straights.)
Engage men. Teach them and challenge them to be a true Catholic man, the Spiritual head of the family and they will come. And not at the behest of a wheedling wife forced to resort to a bag of tricks to get her man to do his job.
When I read or hear misogynistic rhetoric, it amazes me how often it comes from the mouths of women. This same thing happened when blacks were trying to get the old folks to insist on better treatment; the insightful ones were called “uppity,” the facts they reported were met with denial, and they were often verbally maligned or even personally personally attacked. We see it again regarding women’s search for dignity, mostly from older fellow Christians, and even Catholics, who seem to want to keep things as Old School as possible, thus denying truths their daughters can easily spot. If both men and women are considered of equal dignity and value, these old ways will fade away in time, and a more Christ-like valuing of all will ensue.
If Christ like valuing is what you value, Maryanne, then stick with His teachings. Not the sociopolitical misogynistic rhetoric that you, Maryanne, are spouting by pretending that women don’t have a valuable place being women and following God’s plan. (It is you who are ‘feeling’ that a traditional feminine role is somehow demeaning. Why? That’s the question you may want to ask yourself, for your promoting the error of women acting naturally and being subject to God’s order as somehow ‘less’ only aids in promoting birth control, abortion, single parenthood, latchkey kids, and unnecessary warfare between the sexes.)
But the self hate pushed off on women, the very same that makes them degrade the value and difference of the…
… masculine is absolutely something that our daughters are beginning to see is wrong.
Many women are choosing to stay home and school their children in increasing numbers instead of globbing onto the lie that the only value they have is when the compete with men and bring down a paycheck. Or Lord it over Father so that they can take over his job, too. (…and if you think it’s only old ladies, think again. Traditional Churches are brimful, Maryanne. With big families.)
But the fact that you preach the way you do doesn’t surprise me at all. You’ve been well trained to speak that way, against God’s plan for women and men. Against God’s plan for the family. That is anti-woman. That has no correlation whatsoever to the…
… Civil Rights Movement. Zero. Although it sounds nice, especially with the addition of the uppity pejorative.
True dignity is found in one’s proper realm, not in pushing one out of what is proper to them so that you can feel better. You may find yourself insightful, but what I see is inciting. Against God’s order, Maryanne. And that’s why we’ve got the empty pews, friend.
That said, Maryanne, what “facts” are you bringing to the conversation? Thus far I’ve only heard erroneous fluff that women are responsible for the fiscal success of the United States because of their touch and getting the men to stop their rough fighting and crude joking.
The reality behind women in the workforce is that it upped disposable family income. This extra cash enabled the US economy to grow based not on need for goods, but *desire* for goods. It is that catch, however, that of ‘desiring’ more – that’s materialism, Maryanne – that has seen prices skyrocket, making it increasingly necessary for women to ‘have’ to work. Not choose to work outside the home.
This leads to women wanting to contracept, abort, put…
…their kids in daycare which often takes the bulk of her salary and robs the kids of the formation they deserve, and causes untold pressure at home where mom has been convinced she ‘must’ do it all or – she’s got no dignity. Oh, yes, and Dad needs to do housework now so that daughters will ‘feel’ more empowered to work outside the home. Forget the fact that Dads are supposed to do much of their own work around the house- that can be hired out.
It’s trap, Maryanne. A lie. A scheme. You may want your daughters caught up in that guilt trip nightmare. I don’t. When I have grandkids, I pray they are raised and taught by their own mother. Not dropped off so mom can go find dignity doing something else.
Call that misogynist…
1 Corinthians 14:34
1 Timothy 2:12
Maryanne that was beautiful. From what im understanding that your trying to convey is that women work against each other. Its sad. They dont follow our blessed mama Mary’s example. These women have scandalized me with their backwards behaviors, they are an example of moral relaitivism because they preach at you, excuse each others bad will, there is no right or wrong unless they say so and wait for the name calling but when they get admonished, they are double standard and bully to no end. They have done more harm and scandal agsinst the faith here by their choice of petty judgements. Personal attacks. They cant dialogue without assuming the worst or they read into it too much!
Abeca, Maryanne Leonard questioned why it is that men are called the spiritual head of the family. If you cannot understand that that is an attack against God’s ordained order, then God help you, friend.
It is precisely the stepping back into ‘ladies’ mode that equates telling the truth forcefully as some anathema that has killed parishes and still does. That is what drives men from pews and also drives men crazy when their wives pay more attention to ‘how’ something is said, rather than the meat of what is said.
It is no assumption to take what someone actually posts and hold them accountable. Methinks thou dost excuse too much, Abeca. Another thing that drives men nuts when women get in the way with men correcting…
… them when the wife is going to get all over you for being a meanie, heartless man?
So good luck doing it all while lamenting those bad men who are so disinterested. Women are their own worst enemy.
You may think female equals instant comrade, but its what issues forth from the heart and head that determines the values one embraces.
Remarkably extravagant: “When I read or hear misogynistic rhetoric, it amazes me how often it comes from the mouths of women.” -M. Leonard
Now I understand, is this the same M. Leonard (and her Christian Cheerleader) who is/are so concerned about chaaaritable converse? However, it is OK to throw out ludicrous smears that Anne Malley, Catherine, and ostensibly other trad women are “crypto-misogynist” (pronounced: “mis-oooogynist, FYI)?
This article is about men who are rejecting the Novus Ordo Mass: any weapon in a dogfight.
Look, this is the childish view that those who I vehemently disagree with are “unchaaaritable.” (“those who seem to want to keep things as Old School as possible”). No: to me absurdly comical. Like ducks. I cant take them seriously at all. I wont. Get over it.
The Catholic Church is in a virtual state of total collapse: this article is more evidence of it. Worldwide, as the Maronite and Chaldean Patriarchs plead, Christians are being fearfully tortured and murdered. And you quail over your feeeelings? Really?
So assail those of us in the pews watching the Novus Ordo Ducks quack and flap their wings and scold us for it all –and yet they control all the levers.
.
I don’t think feminism addresses family systems or religious systems as much as social, political and economic rights. While it could be included in social rights by those who do not understand the priesthood, no one has the right to be a priest.
I think some feminists might address domestic abuse and oppression which are sins, but in general if a woman chooses to be the helpmeet and submit to her husband because of religious or personal beliefs that she herself chooses, that IS feminism.
For those who are opposed to feminism, what social, economic and political rights do you feel men should have and women not have or vice versa?
God bless you, Steve, for cutting through the inane rhetoric. Now I know why Vikings went a-viking and many went on Crusade. Pray God we engage grace to overcome this suffocating scourge of (s)mothering.
Time for everyone to grow up.
The doe-eyed blinking is making my head spin and, in large part, what drives me completely away from the Novus Ordo as I need the straight dope.
One female teacher who was in charge of preparing all of the religion teachers for the Diocese of Orange, Ca., told the teachers that she often made up, (IOW lied) very poignant and dramatic stories in order to sway the strongly held beliefs of those she was instructing. She showed these teachers a heretical teaching film. One of the teachers asked to borrow this video tape. You see, dissenters are so used to being comfortably supported in their dissent so she lent out the video. We showed the video to several very good priests in the Diocese. They all agreed that this video was “diabolical.” The title of the heretical teaching video was ‘Tradition.’
Doesn’t surprise me as one of my sisters insisted her Reiki expertise was acquired by way of convent retreats. Lovely tradition. And yet, at the same time, to speak out vehemently against such evil will result in the, “How dare you raise your voice against these beautiful sisters in Christ who have given soooooo much.”
After all, it’s all about women seeking their rightful dignity! That’s why we go to mass. Check.
THE VORTEX—CATHOLIC, INC.
https://www.churchmilitant.com/video/episode/vort-2015-11-25
The ruling class of the Church continues to run the Church like a corporation. And we use the term “ruling class” intentionally, because there is something akin to class warfare going on…
If it sounds too Catholic, it is to be ignored, downplayed or uprooted. Can’t have too much overt Catholicism on display; people are put off, left feeling bad or uncomfortable, and we can never have that. It’s all smile around Catholic, Inc. these days, not to mention making a lot of money for the ruling class. Bill Donohue of the Catholic League collects almost half a million a year — almost $500,000. Carolyn Woo is in catch-up mode; poor thing only pulls…
“The Church needs good men to die for the cause. Up for it?
https://www.churchmilitant.com/video/episode/vort-2015-12-02
When we make an analogy to young people going into religious life these days, it’s a pretty apt analogy — especially when you consider the status quo in the Church as the fortress that needs assaulting. There are some heavy guns behind that fortress establishment and shortage of willingness to use them against faithful clergy and religious.
Quite simply, that means much of what is done, enacted, preached and so forth is motivated by something other than a love of souls. But it sounds like love of souls is the motivation…
But any clergy, who having been on the inside who suddenly discover the truth and begin…