The following comes from a Jan. 20 posting by Bill Maguire on the Catholic World Report website.
As the result of yet another brazen act of judicial fiat, Florida has become the 36th state where same-sex “marriage” is now the law of the land. The bishop of St. Petersburg, Robert Lynch, reacted to this judicial overreach on his blog and in a January 6th op-ed piece he penned for the Tampa Bay Times.
Bishop Lynch’s view on how the Church should respond to the civil redefinition of marriage provides perhaps the most forceful argument to date for maintaining the Church’s teaching on a different, but interrelated issue: namely, denying communion to divorced and civilly remarried Catholics.
Most bishops sympathetic to the same-sex “marriage” agenda are too intelligent to make a case for de jure acceptance of it in the Catholic Church. I would suggest, however, along with Cardinal Pell, that the issue of permitting communion for the divorced and remarried can be used effectively as a stalking horse to gain de facto acceptance of same-sex “marriage” in the Church. During last October’s Synod in Rome, Cardinal Pell stated:
Communion for the divorced and remarried is for some — very few, certainly not the majority of synod fathers — it’s only the tip of the iceberg, it’s a stalking horse. They want wider changes, recognition of civil unions, recognition of homosexual unions…
Therefore, if the Church wishes to be a consistent and effective witness for the true definition of both sacramental and civil marriage—an impossible task without, at the same time, rejecting even de facto acceptance of same-sex “marriage”—the bishops and cardinals at the upcoming Ordinary Synod of the Family must not change the practice of denying communion to the divorced and civilly remarried.
It’s not my place or desire to speculate about Bishop Lynch’s intentions. Whether intentionally or not, however, Lynch’s view on how the Church should respond to the civil redefinition of marriage to include same-sex couples—combined with his view on permitting communion to the divorced and remarried, and his focus on looking to the positive aspects of other similarly objective grave sinful situations (same-sex unions and cohabiting heterosexual couples) in the “spirit of Pope Francis and the Extraordinary Synod”—does lay the perfect groundwork for de facto acceptance of same-sex “marriage” in the Church.
While he does not touch on it explicitly, Bishop Lynch’s views nevertheless bring out into the open an issue that was not faced squarely at the Extraordinary Synod on the Family: The Church cannot permit communion for divorced and civilly (re)married heterosexual couples yet, at the same time, deny communion to civilly married same-sex couples.
This is especially true if Bishop Lynch is correct when he says—in terms strikingly similar to the Extraordinary Synod’s midterm relatio—that same-sex couples, like divorced and remarried couples, are capable of “sharing relationships marked by love and holiness” and are, thus, capable of “contributing to the edification of both the church and the wider society.”
In other words, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Or, to formulate the issue in more properly theological terms: The Church cannot permit communion for one category of people in a state of objective grave sin, but deny communion to a different category of people in a state of objective grave sin. This is particularly true when both states are determined to be objective grave sins for a similar reason: i.e., when both states are so designated precisely because both are cases of Catholics entering civil marriages that gravely violate the Church’s teaching on marriage….
I live in FL. Our Bishops are quite good.
However Bishop Robert Lynch is a heretic, not only in this matter but in others. I’m so thankful that he is NOT my Bishop.
Lynch supports same sex marriage – even though he uses double-talk to couch his real intentions;
Notre Dame taking down the Cross and hosting pro-abortionist Obama; supported starving Terri Schiavo (yes, she unfortunately lived in his Diocese); and so much more evil.
Lynch really should resign; he does not believe in the tenants of the Catholic Faith.
Lynch QUOTE: ” Therefore, I do not wish to lend our voice to notions which might suggest that same-sex couples are a threat incapable of sharing relationships marked by love and holiness and, thus, incapable of contributing to the edification of both the church and the wider society. ” UNQUOTE.
Lynch violates Sacred Scripture which is the speech of God;
and violates the teaching in the CCC which contains the Doctrine of the Faith;
and violates the Pope’s Pastoral Letter to Bishops on the Care of Homosexual Persons.
1 1/2 more years and Lynch will have to retire, and most of us in FL can hardly wait !
Until then does anyone want this heretical Bishop? Will trade bad for good.
Sacred Scripture: Gen 19:1-29; Rom 1:24-27; 1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10; Jude 1:7.
CCC: 2357, 2358, 2359, 2396.
Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons:
https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html
” Schiavo Brother Denounces St. Petersburg Bishop Lynch ”
https://www.gettomass.com/schiavo-brother-denounces-st-petersburg-bishop-lynch/
Because of the national Scandal by ‘Catholic teacher’ Bishop Lynch, many ignorant Catholics have approved the starvation deaths of loved ones.
This includes the death of my father.
Lynch teaches that it is up to the disabled person or his family, not that intentional murder by starvation is a Mortal Sin.
Terri Schiavo was starved to death in 2005,
and the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, second edition” was available to all in 1997.
Heretic Lynch does not adhere to, or tell others to read the CCC,
and many do not even know of its existence, yet alone the content.
You will find nothing about the CCC on his Diocese web site even today.
This was the case in my family even though Mass was attended every Sunday.
Terri Schiavo was starved to death, with the blessings of Lynch.
CCC: ” 2277 Whatever its motives and means, direct euthanasia consists in putting an end to the lives of handicapped, sick, or dying persons.
It is morally unacceptable.
Thus an act or omission which, of itself or by intention, causes death in order to eliminate suffering constitutes a murder gravely contrary to the dignity of the human person and to the respect due to the living God, his Creator.
And CCC #2276, 2278, 2279.
Because of Lynch, I no longer trust high ranking Clergy
and consult the CCC when important decisions must be made.
I hope this post will help others.
I pray for my Dad and family, and ask God’s forgiveness.
https://www.seattlecatholic.com/misc_20050308.html
Wade,
You obviously know the Catholic Church’s teachings. lynch knows them but obviously refuses to teach them and enforce them, so where does that leave P. Francis? We now know that some of his recent Cardinal elects are heretics as well!
We will be judged on whether or not we followed HIS teachings!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts!
May God have mercy on an amoral Amerika and His Church!
Viva Cristo Rey!
Kenneth M. Fisher
May God truly bless Terry Shiavo, but it is a denial of the truth of the matter to say that she was starved to death, and especially to say that anyone approved of starving someone to death.
I live in California, but spent 12 days in Florida on behalf of Terri and her family. Most were passed in prayer outside the hospice in Pinellas Park. A few days were spent in support of Terri in Tallahassee at Florida’s House and Senate committee hearings, and lobbying at Senator and Governor offices.
I was well aware of Bishop Lynch’s negligence and culpability. However, he isn’t the only prelate who distanced himself from Terri and her family’s plight. A quote from one of them: “The bishops and lay faithful of Florida have the task of leading American Catholics in the Terri Schiavo case. They’re working hard to provide that leadership. Our job, outside Florida, is to support Ms. Schiavo and all those concerned for her well-being with our prayers. We especially need to pray for Ms. Schiavo’s family.”
He then went on to correctly criticize the starvation of Terri. But what Terri and her family needed was for all U.S. prelates to call upon all Catholics to take action and to lead them in doing so. What Terri and her family needed was a united effort to prevent Terr’s murder. Yet when I criticized this prelate’s call to leave it to “the bishops and lay faithful of Florida” to lead the rest of us, he told me that my comments incited disunity. There is no way he could not have be fully aware of Bishop Lynch’s appalling abandonment of Terri and her family.
See ‘Calvary in Pinellas Park’ at https://fjdalessio.wordpress.com/2005/04/05/calvary-in-pinellas-park.
There is NO OPTION !
There must be no HOLY COMMUNION for anyone choosing to continue living in the State of Mortal Sin –
whether it be sexual relations with the valid spouse of another (adultery);
or
Homosexual acts;
or
Fornication.
Holy Communion while in the State of Mortal Sin is Sacrilege against the Body and Blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
Partaking of the Supper Unworthily –
1 Cor 27-30.
” Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.
Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.
That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. “
SECOND VATICAN COUNCIL –
Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation (Dei Verbum)
Nov 18, 1965
Chapter III
SACRED SCRIPTURE, ITS INSPIRATION and DIVINE INTERPRETATION –
# 11, second paragraph
” Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly,
faithfully and without error
that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation.
Therefore all Scripture is divinely inspired and has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error,
for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, so that the man who belongs to God may be efficient and equipped for good work of every kind” (2 Tim. 3:16-17, Greek text). ”
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html
and
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/index.htm
All Bishops who propose violating Sacred Scripture should be thrown out of Office, not permitted to use the name Emeritus, not receive any pension from any Church sources.
We should ask the Pope to force bad Bishops to resign in accord with the Code of Canon Law.
The main job of the Magisterium is to safeguard the ‘Deposit of the Faith’, and to teach..
The Vortex: TIME to RETIRE
Actively gay & gay-friendly bishops and priests — they gotta go.
https://cmtvnews.com/2015/01/12/the-vortex-time-to-retire/
Let us fervently pray that these priests and bishops are getting to retirement age, since none of the recent Popes saw fit to boot them out…the pedophilia scandal was revealed about 30-40 years after the seminaries started filling up or at least glossing over many men whose sexual orientation was questionable. Some priests in the 1940’s saw this coming but no one in authority did anything about it. When one reads that Bella Dodd herself admitted that she saw to it that thousands of Communists entered the seminaries (google her name if you don’t know who she was), apparently some of them or their proteges are still around. And can we assume that some of these “men” ended up in Rome???
Justifiably good people criticize these wolves, and I emphasize the plural form as in so many of these articles in the last few years, it hasn’t been a handful of wolves described and criticized by the bloggers, but bus loads of wolves with their flocks of liberals liking them, and their flocks of conservatives disdaining them.
What I don’t understand is why the flocks of conservatives are still following the wolves? It makes no sense. It also makes no sense why the flocks of conservatives stand-up and defend those who supervise the wolves. Obviously if the supervisors are not going to correct and admonish, or remove the wolves, then the supervisors can’t be trusted, and are very likely themselves also wolves in sheeps clothing.
Does anyone really think our Lord would stand behind and defend the wolves? No I don’t think so, since it is our Lord Himself speaking up in the Gospels warning us through the centuries to beware of wolves in sheeps clothing. It has also been stated in catholic archives that the floors of hell are lined with the robes of bad bishops.
I don’t let all these incredible scandals time after time affect my faith in Holy Mother the Church, it is unshaken as she is not the wayward V2 church, but she is the Roman Catholic parishes that follow ancient tradition throughout the world, of which I am a member thereof.
I call myself faithful to the teaching of the Church (rather than conservative) which includes Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Magisterium in the CCC.
Those who do not adhere are heretics. (CCC 2089).
I don’t follow bad Bishops. I don’t let them discourage me. I adhere to the real thing. They do make me sad sometimes because I love Christ’s Church.
The only reason we must point out these scandals by high ranking clergy
is so that others do not follow the wolves.
We have the duty to make accurate information known to the other Christian Faithful for the good of the Church. CCC 907,
There are some good and faithful Clergy.
The Archdiocese of Lost Angels under Arch. Gomez will soon once again host and invasion of heretics, including famous sodomite priests, it is misnamed “Religious Education Congress 2015” and you can view the list of speakers at: RECongress.org.
The question is: “how many of you that profess to be members of the “Church Militant” are willing to spend some time at this abomination with CRCOA, Inc. to call attention to this invasion of heretics, including Fr. Orlando Espin, former or present President of the Sad Diego Gay and Lesbian Club!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts!
May God have mercy on an amoral Amerika and His Church!
Viva Cristo Rey!
Kenneth M. Fisher
Acts which are gravely depraved and intrinsically disordered cannot be part of “…sharing relationships marked by love and holiness…” Anything that encourages same-sex couples to live together enables such acts.
Another homo in the news, this time a homo teacher sexually abusing a boy …
https://tinyurl.com/HomoTeacher
Bishop Lynch must be sacked, and now, by the Vatican.
The “stalking horse” is not necessarily only the issue involved. It is the fact that a bishop can come out and say these things and not be fired. This “freedom from heresy” is directly laid at the feet of Francis.
Too bad that, in other areas, “conservative” bishops are being forced to retire, or otherwise compromised, through the efforts of the Vatican. See, Bishop Jean-Marie le Vert (Quimper, FR.) and Bishop Mario Oliveri (Albenga-Imperia, IT). Remember that it was Italian and French bishops, almost immediately after Francis was made Pope, that asked that he surpress the TLM. Francis refused, but very gently, but obviously did not forget. He is just a better axe-man, using the longer version of capital punishment of Tradition.
Bishop Lynch can say, and do, whatever he wants without fear of retribution from the Vatican (as did B. Bonny of Antwerp, who called for recognizing homosexual unions). This is a favorite tactic of all dictators: let others act in simply awful ways and then come in and organize it (perhaps toning it down a little). Pope Francis is proving to be a much better politician than a Pope; things are very dark.
The Vortex: Gay at The Vatican – Bravo! | Church Militant TV News
https://cmtvnews.com/2015/01/23/the-vortex-gay-at-the-vatican-bravo/
What does the title mean?
And why does the subtitle say that he is laying the groundwork for same-sex marriage in the Church?
In the statement the Bishop says:
As one of our seven sacraments, the Catholic Church upholds marriage as an indissoluble relationship between a man and a woman committed to mutual consolation and open to procreation. Such a view is rooted not only in the Church’s longstanding theological understanding of married life, but in the Church’s understanding of Christian anthropology as well, which views the conjugal and complementary relationship between a man and a woman as part of God’s Providential design whereby human beings are able to be co-creators of life with God.
You have to read the blue ‘links’. Lynch couches his words which makes him very dangerous. He states the truth and then mixes in his heresy.
This is the heresy Lynch added.
Lynch QUOTE: ” Therefore, I do not wish to lend our voice to notions which might suggest that same-sex couples are a threat incapable of sharing relationships marked by love and holiness
and, thus, incapable of contributing to the edification of both the church and the wider society. ” UNQUOTE.
The Mortal Sins of homosexual acts – (homosexual marriage) which are “GRAVE DEPRAVITY” can never be holy,
and can send Souls to Hell.
CCC: 2357, 2358, 2359, 2396
Gen 19:1-29; Rom 1:24-27; 1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10; Jude 1:7
“Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons”:
” 15. We encourage the Bishops, then, to provide pastoral care in full accord with the teaching of the Church for homosexual persons of their dioceses.
No authentic pastoral programme will include organizations in which homosexual persons associate with each other without clearly stating that homosexual activity is immoral.
A truly pastoral approach will appreciate the need for homosexual persons to avoid the near occasions of sin.”
https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html
Dottie, “Those who do not adhere are heretics. (CCC 2089)”
Are those who made all the radical changes to where it became the present V2 church, opposing the earlier Holy Fathers orders, then heretics as you say? Those who do not adhere are heretics. (CCC 2089)
Pope Pius IX’s Syllabus of Errors in 1864, which condemned the religious liberty promulgated at V2 in the decree Dignitatis Humanae of 1965.
Pope Leo XIII’s Libertas in 1888 which also condemns the false teachings of Dignitatis Humanae and Satis Cognitum in 1896 which condemns the errors of Vatican II that the one true Church of Christ is not identified only with the Catholic Church.
Pope St. Pius X’s Pascendi and Lamentabili in 1907 which condemned the various errors of the modernists which has so overwhelmingly effected the”hierarchy” of the V2 Church.
Pope Benedict XV’s 1917 Code of Canon Law which legislates against communicatio in sacris, i.e. active participation in the worship of non-Catholics (Canon 1258).
Pope Pius XI’s Mortalium Animos in 1928 which condemns the false ecumenism of V2 and identifies those who practice it as guilty of apostasy from the true Faith.
Pope Pius XII’s Mediator Dei in 1947 warned in advance of the various innovations and alterations that later had been introduced with the promulgation of the novus ordo service.
Check them out and figure out the answers to Who then are the real heretics?
Bruce, what radical changes are you talking about that are actually stated in V II Documents – please be exact in your examples.
And please provide official Church links to the documents and state the paragraph numbers you are using to show conflicts.
You need to read the docs of VATICAN II again, or for the first time.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/index.htm
What you are complaining about for the most part are NOT part of the V II Docs but ABUSES of them.
Yes, those who abuse and twist the truth of VII can be heretics – both liberals and conservatives. But NOT the V II documents themselves.
(There are only about 6 sentences the entire set of 16 Documents that could use clarification by the Church.)
No official Church document said the RUBRICS of the Mass can never be changed by the Church,
however there are some Priests and some Bishops who unlawfully make their own changes and allow abuses by those attending that Mass.
Another example that you wrongfully complained about can be found in V II Doc – “Unitatis Redintegratio” (Ecumenism) clearly states in Chapter 2, #8, paragprah 4 – – – that the Church usually FORBIDS common worship, and due to special circumstances ONLY the BISHOP can give permission or the Bishops’ Conference, or the Holy See. Priests and Laity have no authority regarding permission to attend a common worship with non-Catholics.
AMEN MAC….you are correct and I appreciate your comments!
Bruce, do you accept the Popes since Paul VI?
Catholic Church definition of HERETIC:
CCC: ” 2089 INCREDULITY is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it.
HERESY is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same. …..”
Prayer, reading the Bible AND the ‘Catechism of the Catholic Church, second edition’ will protect us from wolves in sheeps’ clothing – High ranking clergy, Priests or Nuns.
The Bible and CCC are great gifts.
CCC: ” 2285 Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized.
It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.”
Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others.
Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing. “
The FINAL October 18, 2014 Synod Report “RELATIO SYNODI” is a significant improvement
over the mid-term Report of “Relatio post disceptationem” of Oct 13, 2014.
https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/synod/documents/rc_synod_doc_20141018_relatio-synodi-familia_en.html
Lynch chooses to confuse and quote the mid-term report where some Clergy supported heresy.
We must be vigilant to know the difference and contact our Bishops to insure that heresy does not creep into the 2015 Synod product which will use the “Relatio Synodi” as a guide. “It ain’t over, till it’s over.”
It is amazing to me that neither of the reports implored Diocese Bishops to encourage all those literate within their Diocese to read the Bible and study the CCC – the 2 most important books in the Catholic Faith
– using Diocese and Parish web sites, their Priests encouraging this from the pulpit, etc.
When people within their Diocese do not know the Faith accurately, it directly reflects on the Diocese Bishop since it is his first task to teach the Faith accurately.
Bishops need to improve their own shortcomings first (taking the log out of their own eye first, before taking the splinter out of their brother’s eye).
Hosea 4:6 – ” My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to Me.
Seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. ”
Bruce and Dottie,
One more item to include in your list:
Pope SAINT Pius V’s Papal Bull declared after the Tridentine Latin Mass was officially codified. The Canon of the Tridentine Latin Mass was never to be changed, or if I interpret his Papal Bull correctly, the revisers would be anamatheic, which I believe means they will be excommunicated. The V2 liberals on the Council including Paul VIth changed the Canon of the Mass removing some prayers, changing others, but most critically and seriously changed the words of Consecration of the Wine into our Lord’s Precious Blood.
Yes we know who the true heretics are, the wolves in sheeps clothing have deceived most of the world, and strive to deny and cover it up. Many today defy the true Roman Catholic Church.
Which Papal Bull are you speaking of?
Doug, the promulgation of the Tridentine Mass uses a kind of language used in many many papal documents which says in essence, that this decree is in effect forever until a future pope changes it. That Bull wasn’t the first to use that language, and it wasn’t the first to be changed afterwords by future popes. BTW, you are a little vague about the particular Bull, but I think t he unchangeability was for the entire mass not just the Canon.
Doug, the Tridentine Mass (aka Latin Mass, Extraordinary Form) has NOT BEEN CHANGED.
It is the same.
What changes to the Latin Mass are you complaining about ?
V II did not change the Latin Mass.
The Ordinary Form of the Mass (in the vernacular) uses a different rubrics.
Many Bishops and Priests did not want to adhere to the Tridentine Mass at that time in history, therefore they would be excommunicated.
So you are reading wrong from a historical perspective.
In addition, there is no OFFICIAL Church document which states the CHURCH itself may not make changes to the rubrics of the Mass, etc.
I lived in St. Petersburg Florida and well, Lynch is a HUGE LIBERAL and cannot stand the Traditional Latin Mass even if he does “allow” it in his cathedral in the “chapel” big deal right???? Throw the real Catholics some Latin and a TLM and that will shut them up while, then the “Novus Ordoites” can have their kiss of peace, dancing girls, altar girls, lay lectors, drums, guitars, Protestant music, felt banners, hand holding, polyester vestments, communion in unclean hands, women and girls running around the sancturary, puppet masses, lesbian nuns, presiders not priests who just sit in a chair and let lay men and women do all the work. This my friends is the Novus Ordo and the Saints and martyrs of the past would not even recognize it and would throw up at the very sight before their eyes. Fight for the return of the TRUE MASS OF ALL TIMES AND SAVE OUR HOLY ROMAN CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH.
“Janek”: Your words are a powerful witness for re-balancing the institutional Catholic Church consistent with its wonderful Tradition. Thank you.
Rather than bad mouthing are lying about the OF Mass which is a sin,
merely say good and accurate things about the EF Mass.
I see ranting and raving and false charges against the OF Mass, but nothing true that would encourage anyone to attend the EF Mass by many posters.
False charges against the OF Mass must stop. These lies include anything against the Mass when the Mass is done in full accord with GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal).
All LEGITIMATE complaints seem to revolve around the ABUSES that are permitted by a Bishop or Priest, or committed by a Bishop or Priest or Lay Persons.
ABUSES must be corrected and stop.
Contact the appropriate Diocese Bishop when you personally can document any abuses of the OF Mass.
https://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/girm-table-of-contents.cfm
Rather than bad mouthing are lying about the OF Mass which is a sin,
merely say good and accurate things about the EF Mass.
I see ranting and raving and false charges against the OF Mass, but nothing true that would encourage anyone to attend the EF Mass by many posters.
False charges against the OF Mass must stop. These lies include anything against the Mass when the Mass is done in full accord with GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal).
All LEGITIMATE complaints seem to revolve around the ABUSES that are permitted by a Bishop or Priest, or committed by a Bishop or Priest or Lay Persons.
ABUSES must be corrected and stop.
Contact the appropriate Diocese Bishop when you personally can document any abuses of the OF Mass, or you personally will not be doing your duty (CCC 907) and will have no right to complain.
(Take the log out of your own eye before you take the splinter out of your brother’s.)
https://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/girm-table-of-contents.cfm
PETE God bless you! You are speaking the truth! I agree completely with you!
…false charges from your experience, Pete. Thankfully, truth isn’t defined by limited exposure.
PETE, thank you for your stand for the Lord and His Holy Sacrifice.
You can do better than that Anomynous. Don’t be lazy. Do a little research. Learn about true Roman Catholic Church History. Pope SAINT Pius the Vth’s Papal Bull is very well known by Traditionalists because they can and do read, get educated, can separate the good from evil, learn and know their Roman Catholic Heritage. All this can be easily found using the correct words in browsers on the internet. Don’t wait to be spoon fed, its time you do your research. To many liberals these days believe whatever they hear when it fits their agendas no matter how big are the lies. Research, investigate, and seek the truth. God is the way, the truth, and the life! Pray to Him that He will reveal to you His truth! I have seen many people, have the scales covering their eyes and hiding from them the truth fall off not long after devoutly saying the rosary on a daily basis. They asked for Our Lady’s help and they received it. Our Lady is there to help us because She loves us.
Provide the Official Church link, Doug.
Or are you afraid that people will find out about your baloney ?
As others have posted, the TRADITIONAL LATIN MASS (Extraordinary Form)has NOT been changed.
Speccifically what changes in the TRADITIONAL MASS do you think took place?
(Remember we are discussimg your personal complaints about the LATIN MASS ONLY.)
I have never heard of anyone who attends the TLM complaining about changes to the Latin MASS itself. You appear to be in a very small minority or are one of a kind.
There is nothing in Catholic Faith that the CHURCH ITSELF can not change the rubrics of the Mass – OF or EF.
And you can not prove otherwise.
You made the statement that the Latin Mass itself was changed, therefore the burden of proof is on you.
Your earlier posts sound like you are confused, or merely want to cause confusion.
If you are speaking about Quo Primum, it does not say that “the Canon of the Latin Mass was never to be changed”.
Is there another Papal Bull that says that?
Sorry Jose and Pete, but you are wrong. Do some homework, and don’t rely on articles written by modernists who support the changes they’ve made in the protestantized V2 church to support and defend theirs and your errored positions.
Some of you may remember or are familiar with the fact that in 1962 John XXIII promulgated a new missal in which St. Joseph’s name was inserted into the Canon of the Mass. Perhaps at the time some thought that this was a good thing. Here it is helpful to note that in 1815 there was a movement inaugurated among the clergy and laity to add St. Joseph’s name to the Canon. Hundreds of thousands of petitions were sent to Rome, but the Sacred Congregation of Rites remained firm in denying the request. “So careful is the Church to prevent innovations from entering into this part of the Mass that she forbids anyone to meddle with it under pain of incurring her most severe censures” (Fr. John O’Brien, A History of THE Mass and the Ceremonies in the Eastern and Western Church, 1879, p. 296.) Note: circa 1879, a real validated priest!
In fact, so sacred is the Canon that no changes had been made in it since the time of Pope St. Gregory the Great in the sixth century, until John XXIII changed it. The changes made by Pope St. Gregory the Great were only minor.
I imagine there were plenty of people who were upset when Pope Gregory the Great changed the Mass, too.
Obviously, Pope Pius V was expecting resistance to his changes in the Missal too.
This argument is silly. The Roman Canon is not used in Eastern Churches. Not now, not ever. Yet no one argues that it is an invalid mass nor less honorable than the Roman Rite. How is it that the Canon is the unchangeable norm for the Latin Rite by Christ’s own decree, if it has never been the norm everywhere?
Anomynous, As a college professor, I push my students to do research. I don’t want them to have the easy way out, you see, forcing them to do research causes them to learn a whole lot more as they scroll page by page through the documents and find interesting collateral and ancillary subject matter. By researching old pre-Vatican II sources, you will learn a whole lot of interesting things about the Roman Catholic Church and Faith that will make you appreciate Her and the way She was, why it is so and is suppose to be the way it is.
There is very much good reading material that exists although the 1960s through 1980s had many traditional Roman Catholic books purging and burning events. You know, out with the old, and in with the new! Burn the bridges so there was no opportunity to return. The trouble is many “apparent traditional” reprints since then, aren’t complete and unabridged. Many have been tainted intentionally, incorporating modernists theories and twists that deceive unsuspecting innocent readers making them think what they are reading is traditional, when some of it is tainted. Check out your sources title, date, Imprimitur, Nihil Obstat, and preface to measure their credibility. Enjoy learning about our Roman Catholic Heritage!
Doug, that is interesting that there have been redaction to some old books. Can you give examples?
And good for you in pushing your students.
I love reading old and new Church documents.
Yes, Doug, please verify your statements including giving examples.
If possible links to your sources would be appreciated.
Doug, you are right that throughout history there are too many books and research materials that merely contain the personal opinions of the authors – which may be accurate or inaccurate, and many times a mix of both.
As an example, look at the garbage written by Cardinal Kasper and others of his ilk.
That is why OFFICAL documentation should be used.
VATICAN II Documents: https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/index.htm
“CATECHISM of the CATHOLIC CHURCH, second edition”
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm
CODE of CANON LAW
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM
GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal) for the Ordinary Form of the Mass
https://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/
etc.
Excellent PETE! Thanks for posting!
Anomynous & Al,
What do you think happened to the many Catholic Religious Text Books from the now closed pre-Vatican II RCC Elementary, Middle, and High Schools? What do you think happened to the Catholic Religious Text Books from the now closed pre-Vatican II RCC colleges and seminaries? Altogether in our country alone thousands were closed between the 1960s and 1980s alone! What do you think happened to all those old pre-Vatican II Catholic Religious Text Books? There must have been millions of them! Where are they now? Oh yes some were salvaged by Catholics that cared, that is some; but why don’t we see many around? It might be hard to find on the internet any articles about book burnings from those days; however, my brother-in-law working at Regis University at Denver salvaged an Old pre-Vatican II RCC Altar Missal and a few other artifacts from the burn pile. It happened elsewhere to. Burn the books to unbridge the past!
Pete, I think you mis-understood part of my point on opinions. The old pre-Vatican II RCC Text Books I do trust, it is some of those books in print since Vatican II that I have misgivings about. Those can be edited by the modernists to reflect protestant thinking and one raised in the Vatican II Church would not know the difference, i.e., whether the entire script was correct and what was corrupted.
I’d like to suggest a few great text books to learn the true Roman Catholic Faith about.
1. How Christ said the First Mass, by Fr. James Meagher, circa early 1900s
2. The Catechism of the Council of Trent, circa 1570s
3. The Douay-Rheims, or Chancellor-Rheims Holy Bible
4. The Douay-Rheims Holy Bible Explained, by Fr. Haydock, circa mid 1850’s
5. The Catechism Explained, by Fr. Francis Spirago,
Get old reprints from before the 1960s. Avoid anything that has been edited and published since then, unless you know for certain it hasn’t been edited.
More food for thought for Anomynous and Al,
Ever wonder where all of the old beautiful altars (main and 2 side altars) (not tables) disappeared to that were in the old RCC Sanctuaries? Many were desecrated and smashed under diocesan approval!
Ever wonder where many of the old beautiful ornate statues and Stations of the Cross disappeared to that were in the old RCC Churches? Many were smashed.
Ever wonder where some of the old stain glass windows went to? They were torn down and broken with so many of their churches.
Ever wonder where many of the old ornate high altar tabernacles, golden chalices, golden ciboriums, and golden monstrances went to? I heard and read about them some desecrated showing up in pawn shops and bars. Under who’s approval would that have happened? I don’t think our Lord, nor any of His followers!
These are all online.
Thank you for your recommendations.
As for your other statements-well, no, I never really wondered about that. I remember about 20-25 years ago receiving a request for a donation from a group who claimed to store and restore old things from churches and send them to Africa and other poor areas who did not have the money for those kind of things. I don’t remember if I donated. I do not know if it was legit. I was very trusting of everybody before the Father Corapi eye opener a few years ago.
I know that did not happen at my Church and the Church I belonged to before that. Most of the other parishes were newly built or added on to with the old Church being retained as a Eucharistic chapel. Some statues were given to parishioners.
I see that there are use church things for sale online.
The ALTAR rails were removed in the USA at the prompting of the US Bishops’ Conference (including Cardinal Joseph Bernardin) to make it difficult for people to kneel and get up when receiving the Eucharist.
due to the special INDULT they requested and received for Holy Communion standing and in the hand.
Where can we get a list of ALL the INDULTS granted to the US Bishops?
(It is my understanding that many indults have expiration dates, but that no one checks this.)
We could petition our Bishops and the Vatican to reverse indults that make sense.
Pete,
Don’t believe for a minute that even a minority of them will try to replace all of the relics the V2 Churches removed, burned, or smashed.
These relics of what used to be in the RCC Churches, now V2 Churches, would be hard to be replaced today. The modern V2 Churches built in the last 50 years haven’t the architecture to fit those traditional style of relics. Worst though is the desecration of the old main and side altars by smashing them, getting of the beautiful old vestments, and smashing the statues too!
You will know them by their fruits says the Lord!