The following column by Howard Kainz appeared July 19 on The Catholic Thing blog site.
The well-known story of the Dutch boy who put his finger in a dyke to prevent flood waters from surging into his town was a piece of fiction devised by the American author, Mary Mapes Dodge (in her 1865 novel, Hans Brinker, or the Silver Skates), and has no relationship to any identifiable Dutch legend. But like Aesop’s fables, it has lasting value for the moral message it imparts: namely, even if you are a little guy, if you see a problem emerging, and you act quickly, you can prevent the disaster that would take place if the problem got out of hand.
Some states now, trying to counter the massive support from the media, politicos, and Hollywood for implementing countrywide gay marriage, like the little Dutch boy, are taking steps to stem the floods. One of the most significant steps has been the enactment of amendments in thirty states, defining marriage as a union of one man and one woman. Significantly, only six states and the District of Columbia grant licenses to same-sex couples.
But those who wish to keep the gay agenda from flooding over us should be aware of some formidable obstacles that may lead to defeats along the road, or to victories that turn out to be pyrrhic victories. I am referring not just to the attempts to normalize the gay lifestyle through public-school indoctrination, Hollywood films, TV sitcoms, etc., but to four deeper factors embedded in contemporary culture:
1) The propaganda has been successful: There is a general belief now, even among those opposed to gay marriage, that homosexuals are “born” that way. There is no scientific basis for this belief. Many scientists have tried in the last three decades to prove that there are hormonal causes for homosexuality, or a “gay gene,” or genetic tendencies in identical twins. All these studies, subjected to peer criticism, have turned out to be flawed or inconclusive. Still, many people have come to believe in biological determination. And if indeed homosexuality is something you are born with, then it seems to belong in the same category as race or ethnicity. If it is discriminatory to prohibit marriage, for example, between whites and blacks, it seems similarly discriminatory to prohibit marriage between two persons who can’t control that they were born with same-sex attraction.
2) As determined in the decision of the American Psychiatric Association in 1973, homosexuality is no longer considered a pathology. No homosexual need undergo treatment, unless he or she is for some reason “uncomfortable” with the same-sex attraction, in spite of the fact that it is generally recognized to be quite normal. Dr. Robert Spitzer, who originally spearheaded the movement to normalize homosexuality, later decided that the move was precipitous, and that homosexuals can often be cured of exclusive same-sex orientation. Spitzer published positive results of “reparative therapy” in the Archives of Sexual Behavior. But Spitzer, now in his eighties and suffering from Parkinson’s disease – and emotionally devastated by an outpouring of hatred from militant gays – has recently announced that his interpretation of the data was flawed, and reversed his earlier reversal. So the clinical normality of homosexuality is no longer threatened by Spitzer’s indecision. In fact, the state of California has just passed a bill prohibiting the use of reparative therapy by psychotherapists.
3) Almost every couple is now using contraceptives, the purpose of which is to completely separate sex from procreation. But sex without procreation is exactly what gay liaisons are about. Heterosexual and homosexual marriages have become just two types of non-procreative sexual experience. It would be patently inconsistent for contracepting heterosexuals to complain about gay marriage, just because they are engaged in a different version of non-procreative sex.
4) Outside of Catholicism and Orthodoxy, marriage is not considered a Sacrament, but a contract. Luther and other Protestant Reformers removed marriage from the category of sacraments (which, like baptism, confer special graces) and relegated it to a civil contract, often officiated over by ministers. Marriage as a Sacrament is considered a spiritual participation in the mystery of Christ’s eternal espousal of the Church, and thus is so essentially connected with a male-female model (Genesis 1, Ephesians 5:31-33) that any application to gay marriage would be forced and spiritually repugnant. However, the fact that the majority of Catholic married couples, if we may believe the opinion polls, are using contraceptives, and in doing so are missing the grace-giving, sacramental aspect of their marriage, leaves us with only a minority witnessing to sacramental marriage – a weak counter-attack indeed. If marriage is just a civil contract, civil authorities, with a little legerdemain, can make it applicable to homosexuals.
Of course, if any of the four above-mentioned factors changes substantially, the outlook will improve. Hopeful signs at present include the psychotherapists who continue to offer reparative therapy for same-sex attraction; the growing awareness of Catholics regarding the Church’s position on contraception, triggered by reaction to aggressive “mandates” of the Obama administration; and the ongoing reconsideration by some evangelicals of the Protestant position on contraception, as they join with Catholics in opposition to the current HHS mandate to religious institutions.
So the current situation looks desperate, but we should not give up on any – even seemingly small – efforts. We may fail to stop this flood, but then again, in God’s good Providence, who knows?
To read original story, click here.
I just got back from the COURAGE/ENCOURAGE conference in Emmitsburg, MD last weekend. What an incredible experience! I urge all of you to start saving your money for next year’s conference, which is scheduled to be held in Mundelein, Illinois during the last weekend of July. After meeting sever of the roughly 30 priests who attended (as well as two wonderful bishops), dozens of members, attending workshops and hearing personal testimonies of 2 speakers who had been away from the Catholic Church for 25 and 35 years respectively,I believe that I have now been equipped with many tools to stop many leaks now.
It is hard to argue with the claim that the sexual revolution in all its forms, and this includes the acceptance of gay sex, stems from rejection of Humanae Vitae, God’s plan for human life and love. Rejection of Humanae Vitae is a rejectjion of the principle of Nutural Law, and evangelicalism has long operated sundering grace from nature and as a result has fallen headlong into the contraceptive mind-set, along with, sadly, a great majority of Catholics. It may be harder than we think to convince evangelicals of the evil in the HHS mandate as so many really sided with Sibelius long ago. And it may be even harder to convince rebellious Catholics, as they have plenty of encougagement from dissidents who don’t mind telling everyone the Church is wrong. Oh how we must pray. A profound darkness has settled over this land.
the western civilization is committing suicide while the Islamists are out populating the west. The Islamists will take care of the sodomites. GOD is not mocked.
This needs repeating: ” I am referring not just to the attempts to normalize the gay lifestyle through public-school indoctrination, Hollywood films, TV sitcoms, etc., but to four deeper factors embedded in contemporary culture ……” What do you allow your children to see on TV and at the movies? What do you do with your children to counteract these evil influences?
If they are “born that way” then identical twins would both have the same (dare we say) disorder and studies have shown that it’s not so.
The phrase “born that way” could also be used by pedophiles, and many do claim they were “born that way” and “can’t help themselves” when faced with the opportunity to molest a child. However, as a grown woman, I experienced a man getting up in the middle of coitus to answer the phone, have a conversation, and return to the activity. Everyone can “help themselves” and no one was “born that way”. Those phrases are plainly excuses for bad behaviour!
We will eventually slouch into civil conflict because those running the propaganda will demand our obedience, there will be no quarter given to us. Their aim is to drive us out of the public sphere straight into the cemetery. The time is coming for us to choose sides, Christ or the World, I know where I stand what about your, PA and Francis???? There is no more go along to get along!!!
It’s TRUE. There is NO public sphere in which to express our CATHOLIC views about hating those sins that bring the homosexuality to our nation! If ONLY there were a PUBLIC WEBSITE, perhaps published by wordpress, devoted to allowing TRUE catholics to express the TRUTH!??!
Are you talking about homosexuals or normally true Gay people, of which 98% of the people are? To call homosexuals “gay” is a SIN!! Most couples are using birth-control? Another unproven big lie that just keeps selling newspapers!! Other-wise, it would be a very great article, now, clean up your adjectives and call a spade a spade instead of an ice-pick, etc.. +JMJ+
Well said. While we’re at it, how about getting the rainbow back? The rainbow was the sign of a covenant that God made with Noah.
…and the license plates for the great state of hawaii!
…AND the refraction of light in a prism!
We can take some comfort that the mid-20th century advertising propaganda in favor of smoking was finally tuned around after the Surgeon General’s report in 1964. Scientific truth is on the side of Church teaching (for both have the same Source) and the truth will out. But smoking took many lives, and unnatural vice may destroy many souls before we succeed.
Praise God, another force for good is being sent to help stem the tide. Our beloved Pope Benedict, may he live to be a hundred! Let us pray for the new Archbishop Cordileone of SanFrancisco as he faces untold opposition and challenges (to put it mildly) . Pray for a strong pro-marriage candidate to replace Pelosi. Pray, pray, pray!
Praise God. San Francisco will be saved with Bishop Cordileone our new ARCHBISHOP!!
was s.f. going to be demolished otherwise?
i never got that memo…
One can only hope…..
max says, “I never got that memo.” Well max, if you telephone the Diocese of Orange Ca. they will send you one.
Having a heterosexual orientation or a homosexual orientation is not a sin. The Church teaches that any sexual activity outside of marriage is a sin. Therefore, all one must do to remain sin free, regardless of orientation, is to not have sex outside of marriage. A person of any age or sexual orientation can remain celebate; it may be difficult at times, but not impossible. Think of the millions of priests, religious, single, divorced and widowed people who are celibate and lead happy, productive lives. Unfortunately, we are bombarded in the media, especially on TV, with the idea that sexual activity is necessary for a normal happy life. There are entire industries promoting various medications (Viagra, Cialis, hormonal treatments for women etc.) and medical treatments that promise an active sex life. Daily, there are stories of people in the entertainment industry who are proud of their sexual escapades and numerous children born our ot wedlock. To counter this misinformation, It would be encouraging if we heard homilies, at least once in a while, about chastity and celibacy.
Sarah,
If you have not been hearing homilies about chastity and celibacy, chances are you are not attending a Traditional Catholic parish. Go to a Traditional Catholic parish and you will hear such truths, and often!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Good post, Sarah, and Kenneth is right. The more traditional Catholic churches, even when they serve the Post-vatican II Mass, ARE giving homilies about chastity and celibacy, but the approved traditional Latin Mass give more of them more often.
Sarah, there is no such thing as “sexual orientation”. We are all created heterosexual. Homosexuality is a “disorientation”.
What proportion of the homosexual population is not involved in the gay agenda? Not much. They’re almost all complicit in promoting their evil … Gay activism needs to be legislatively prohibited, and enforced by law.
Laurette Elsberry it is refreshing to read your post! You are 100% correct! People like Sarah usually make that remark and sometimes it can be misread or misinterpreted, depending on who is reading it! God did not create homosexuality!
I feel the need to respond to the information indicated under Item 1 of this article to educate those who do not know the Catholic Church’s position regarding certain people who were born as homosexuals. I am not providing the information because I support same sex marriages. I’m providing the information because I believe that a website that calls itself, “California Catholic Daily” should reflect statements that reflect the teaching of the Catholic Church. Under Item #1, this article indicates, in part, as follows: 1) The propaganda has been successful: There is a general belief now, even among those opposed to gay marriage, that homosexuals are “born” that way. ………………”
Please note that the Catechism of the Catholic Church indicates as follows at Page 625: Chastity and Homosexuality 2358: “The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial…….”
I want to clarify my position on same sex marriage because I believe I did not express it well in my earlier posting. I do not believe same sex marriages should be lawful anywhere.
I tried to look up 2358 on my computer and Amazon, but I do think that that section was changed in the Second Edition.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Mr. Fisher, yes, you are correct. The first edition states exactly what MLT says. In the second edition the second sentence in 2358 was replaced with “This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.”
For those who are interested in a quick search regarding contents of the “CATECHISM of the CATHOLIC CHURCH, Second Edition” go to the web site of : “Saint Charles Borromeo Catholic Church” in Picayune, Mississippi. This site is licensed by the Holy See, since the Holy See owns the copyright.
You can search by paragraph number or a word(s).
The site also includes all modifications to the CCC.
I have this marked as a favorite of mine.
When in doubt use your CCC.
MLT, you are correct, most people, and even Church documents, acknowledge that homosexuality is not something that people choose. Most people are aware of and recognize that most gay people are born that way. Because society is becoming more accepting of gay people, being gay is becoming less of a trial for many.
Mark from PA,
AND A GREATER TRIAL FOR THOSE WHO STILL FOLLOW THE GOSPELS!
May God somehow show you how wrong you are.
Kenneth M. Fisher
God bless you Mr. Fisher for your prayerful words for Mark. You truly do care for his salvation!
Another lie from Mark. Look at k’s 11:28 pm comment and mine of 5:18pm.
The reasons for the modifications to the CCC was due to incorrect (WRONG) translations into English ONLY. The version we must be using is called: “CATECHISM of the CATHOLIC CHURCH, Second Edition”.
The first printing of the corrected copy is dated March, 2000.
On the cover you will find the words: “revised in accordance with the official Latin text promulgated by Pope John Paul II”.
The CCC has a dark green cover.
Be sure to get the correct edition when ordering. It can be ordered over most Catholic catalogue internet sites, and even Amazon (but they sell incorrect versions as well.
Mark from PA, it is really not that simple. There are people who go both ways. There are people who for a time choose to live with and love a same sex partner and then another time choose the opposite sex. I see a trend now in females that after a break up they get involved with a girlfriend.
MLT (3:31 pm). Correction. You are citing an old Paragraph 2358 of the Catechism. The amendment that was provided in 1997 (too late, unfortunately because most people will never hear of it) states: “The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination which is objectivelty disordered constitutes for most of them a trial… The original phrase – “they do not choose their homosexual condition” – was likely an effort by homosexuals to corrupt this section of the Catechism. It is heartbreaking to think of how many Catholics believe the original statement and base their self-affirmation of their “homosexual condition” on this being a “gift from God”.
Laurette, I don’t believe the Church’s position changed. I think it is possible that the reason, “they do not choose their homosexual condition”, was stricken because of the different ways people will view the statement. In example, that the Catholic Church believes there is nothing wrong with being homosexual. I didn’t cite: 2357, which indicates, in part, as follows: “…..Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to the natural laws.” So the older publication clearly states that the Church does not condone homosexual unions. But, again I don’t think the Church has changed its position about being born that way, and I believe this is clear when you read, “constitutes for most of them a trial.” What is a “trial”? Am I right to say that a trial could be something God allows us to go through, a test we experience, and we either pass or fail, so to speak.
I originally responded to this posting to state what I believe to be my Church’s position, but now I guess I’ve responded to Laurette’s, “It is heartbreaking to think how many Catholics believe the original statement……….” So, yes, I believe that there are some who were born that way, and my heart breaks for them while they are here on Earth because I wouldn’t want to be given that “trial”. Even if my heart breaks for them, I still believe that same sex marriages are “contrary to natural law”.
Nicely stated, Howard. Peace to you!
Spitzer is said in the column to have changed his view because of an outpouring of hate from the gay community. First of all, who cares if gays hate them? Gays hate all people and God, not to mention creation which they constantly attack. Second of all, why would Spitzer think the gays loved him before that? Doesn’t he recognize the difference between love and what the gays do?
You bring up some very good points, JLS, and with God all things are possible, even going back to a more normal society where the truth is told.
Google First Scandal. When you get there, go to the top of the page and click on “Can you explain…” Please note: this website you reach will be deleted on November 1, 2012.
In entirety from the CCC:
” 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.”
” 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.”
” 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.”
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
Rather than pontificating on partial and/or incorrect quotes, always read the entire paragraph.
**They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity**: This is not a dogmatic statement. The CCC is good for instruction, but it is not infallible teaching. Jesus whipped men who adulterated His temple; now the sodomites are adulterating his Church and attempting to adulterate His teachings.
Again, the Church’s position has never changed.
All changes from the 1997 version of the CCC to the 2000 version of the CCC is because of WRONG translations into English only.
These were language corrections.
Please read my post above to insure you have the correct edition – which will state on the cover: “revised in accordance with the official Latin text promulgated by Pope John Paul II”.
The corrected edition has a dark green cover.
You will also find the corrected version on the Vatican and USCCB web sites.
Thank you very much Mike for providing information as to the reason the Catechism of the Catholic Church was amended. I wanted to research the issue, but didn’t have time. I felt that it would be the reason you have given.
What a crock, JLS. “Gays hate all people and creation, not to mention God…” What a typical dehumanizing, hate-mongering tactic used to turn those you dislike into non-people so that anything done against them can be justified. What’s next, should we round them up and put them in camps, then start exterminating them for the good of society? Gays do not universally hate everyone. I know its hard to imagine, but gay people actually have friends and perform acts of kindness. Courage, for example, would not exist if the Church believed as you do…hence the very existence of this outreach demonstrates your hypocracy. JLS, if you lived during the 1500’s, would you have been saying “The Indians hate all people and creation, not to mention God…therefore they aren’t really human beings and we are actually helping them by killing them, taking their gold, and enslaving them.” Though there were many clergy in the New World who said such things, the Pope of that era rejected such reasoning, as I am certain Benedict would reject your “reasoning” (or more correctly, vile hate-mongering) today.
and dear old JLS is usually so moderate, loving, and calm. imagine him coming up with such stuff.
forgot his rabies shot, most likely…
max, you always forget your mind … must be one too many kumbayahz.
JonJ, when one decides to believe St Paul instead of the gay deceivers, then one begins to realize that all gay people hate their neighbors and God. Sodomy is the consequence of sin according to St Paul, and sodomites who organize political and religious movements are extolling the consequence of sin higher than God. This, JonJ, is an act of hate towards God and mankind, not to mention the rest of creation. The father of the sodomites is the devil. Jesus says the father of liars is the devil, and the sodomites are liars; so their father is the devil. Why is this so hard for you to grasp, JonJ?
Now, the reason why your “thought” about homosexuality and St. Paul are “so hard for me to grasp” is because your ideas are nothing short of deranged. For example, research endorsed by such influential catholic researchers as Dr. Paul McHugh and Dr. Fitzgibbons indicate that large numbers of homosexuals were the victims of sexual abuse as children. In which case, the “sin” at the root of their SSA WAS CAUSED BY SOMEONE ELSE. Go read Fitzgibbons or McHugh, who btw, are most definitely approved by the Church, and you will find that much of the “sin” at the root of SSA is caused by third parties. The other reason why your “thought” is so hard for me to grasp is the same reason why most people have a hard time understanding the hate-mongering of Mein Kampf. Your “thought” is so clearly driven by a bias that will justify bashing gays as “non-people” which is why you ignore such church approved psychiatrists as Fitzgibbon and McHugh. In law, we call this result-oriented reasoning, where you start with a conclusion and work backward to until you can connect that conclusion with the premise. In this case, the conclusions is: gays are sick and disgusting and should be beaten into submission with force (and gosh, I’d get to beat someone and pretend I’m doing it for God—just like they butchered entire cities for not worshiping Yaweh in Dueteronomy!). Consequently, you portray them as “attacking God”. Notice, this is the same tactic used during the Inquisition to excuse stripping heretics of their fortune, torturing confessions from them, and (in rare cases) final execution. Of course, this is a another crock, since I fail to see how a tiny and unimportant human can in away way threaten an Omniscient and Omnipotent God (unless, of course, it serves God’s purpose). What a human being CAN do is attack other human beings and their connection with God—which is how I would characterize many of your diatribes here.The hunger to dominate others and to exert superiority over them with brute force is a very well-worn path that Satan uses to pervert God’s Word.
JonJ, I just noticed that you have called the Indians sodomites. And then you attempt to lure me into believing that I might have lived in the fifteenth century. Your deceptive sodomic rhetoric no doubt gets you close encounters of the third kind, JonJ; however, the brassier you get the more obvious you are. It takes considerable conscience searing to develop a brass persona.
JLS, why do you persist in telling lies about me? I, in no way, suggested you lived in the 15th century, or is there something you don’t understand about the “conditional” verb tense in the English language? Or, perhaps, you are intentionally misunderstanding in order to hurl a falsified attack. That was my way of saying that you are the sort of person who uses Catholic faith as a pretext to aggrandize yourself (in this case by gay bashing), just like the Conquistadors used fake Catholicism to justify seizing the gold and property of the Indians.
Please stop saying that homosexuals are born that way. There is no homosexual gene. One theory is that it is an attachment disorder. This type of disorder generally occurs so very early in life, generally within the first 18 months, that people think they were born that way.
Homosexuals are born of the devil, and this does not happen at the time of their natural childbirth.
“Homosexuals are born of the devil.” I think you carried this belief into the Catholic Church with you, JLS. It is certainly not Catholic teaching. Such statements are dangerous in that they excuse violence against gay people because in harming gay people some will believe that they are fighting the devil.
The Chick Fill-A CEO had a big impact on public opinion, it seems. Hopefully Americans will remember in November.
Delilah – Homosexuals are born that way.
Peter, there is no homosexual gene. If it isn’t genetic, you aren’t born with it.
Delilah, as there is no definitive evidence that a homosexual “gene” exists, there is also no definitive evidence that such a gene does NOT exist. Btw, homosexuality does not have to be genetic for a person to be “born that way”. You can have things like inter-uterine hormone surges, you can have things called “maternal effects” (google it if you don’t understand the term), or there are all kinds of chemicals and toxins that a fetus can be exposed to that can cause all kind of damage. One example of this might be Thalidomide babies, which caused victims to have no arms or legs but only truncated “flippers” in place of limbs. Their condition is not genetic, but due to an external chemical that interfered with fetal development.
JonJ I remember the Thalidomide babies. Please read Dr Fitzgibbons or McHugh. Their books show that much SSA is caused by a 3rd party. To link homosexuality with Thalidomide deformities is like comparing apples to asparagus. I know about maternal effects I learned about it in nursing school.
Delilah, I’m well aware of Fitzgibbons and McHugh. Go back a few months and I was talking to him on this site.
I meant Fitzgibbons btw. I didn’t agree with him about the inclusion of some people in Spitzer’s study. Spitzer’s study on reparative therapy used people who belong to and some even were employed by Narth and Courage. At the very least Narth and Courage employees should have been thrown out because they have a potential conflict of interest (if the therapy wasn’t successful and they said so, it could impact their employment). I was also concerned that Spitzer created his study samples by asking for references from Narth and Courage, that could lead to distorted effectiveness numbers because Narth and Courage might have a bias toward obtaining a higher “success” rate and direct him toward cherry-picked success stories. I said that they needed to repeat Spitzer’s study for those reasons, especially since Spitzer now has repudiated his study and any sound scholarship would have to report that in future citations but Fitzgibbon didn’t think so. I think at least some people can be treated with reparative therapy (which btw is very much at odds with the current thinking of the psychiatric community and most liberals). However, I also think there are some that are indeed “born that way”. I have some related graduate school education (sociobiology) but went a different direction, so I’m not a professional in the field like Fitzgibbon or McHugh.
Delilah – Your opinion is duly noted.
And yours is duly wrong…..
JonJ, I find the relationship of NARTH and Courage to be troubling. It seems to me that some of the NARTH people use the Courage organization for their own purposes. Much of what NARTH pushes is based in old and disproven stereotypes. NARTH is at odds with the current thinking of the psychiatric community but still Courage allows itself to be used by NARTH. So if gay Catholics don’t buy what NARTH is pushing then they really have no place in Courage. Courage needs to free itself from the influence of NARTH.
Kaye Hayes – Homosexuals, like heterosexuals, are born that way,
Peter: Your comment is not true and there is NO medical data proving your point that people with same sex attraction (SSA) are born that way. The best example of this is identical twins having identical DNA. How is it that having the exact same genetic makeup that one can identify as homosexual and the other heterosexual? If SSA were genetic then both would have the same sexual desires having the exact same genetic makeup. Peter, homosexuality is contrary to nature and you have never replied to a grounded argument nor have you provided any answer of how you justify participating in something that contradicts the meaning of the human reproductive system in using the reproductive organs for something contrary to reproduction.
MD, do you honestly believe that one contradicts the meaning of the human reproductive system in using the reproductive organs for something contrary to reproduction? As men we all do this several times a day. In fact the primary and most frequent use of one reproductive organ is to assist in ridding the body of waste.
Peter: Did you read the article? You boldly state that people are born with SSA or genetically inclined to be homosexual, but you provide no basis for your argument. How is one to believe your statement with no evidence? Additionally, in another post you agreed that men and women make babies as part of the human reproductive system, so how is it you can justify using the reproductive organs for something contrary to the design of the reproductive system?
MD – I don’t boldly state anything. I simply state it because I am living proof. Evidence enough? And I don’t have to justify “using the reproductive organs for something contrary to the design of the reproductive system”. It’s not something I do.
Peter: If you are going to promote the lifestyle you are living, you should have a premise for doing so. Your statement that you are “living proof” of being born gay, have you undergone testing that has identified a specific genetic makeup? You have freewill and can make any choice you want, but if you do not have evidence to prove that what you do is natural, why would you ever try to promote your lifestyle? As for my question in your justification on using your reproductive organs for homosexual relations, I as because I am trying to understand how it is a person with SSA makes a decision to have relations with a person of the same sex when it is clearly and obviously using the sexual parts contrary to their design. In the form of a question, if you can identify that homosexual sex does not make sense according to the design of the body and human sexuality, why would someone engage in this activity? I am not asking to pick on you, but really trying to understand why one would make this decision.
Well, MD, I am living proof too. Most of the mainstream medical and psychiatric establishment agrees that many gay people are born that way. Most gay people admit to this. Most gay people say that their sexual orientation is not something that they chose. You keep going on about how homosexual persons are contrary to nature but they are not, they are part of nature like everyone else. To me saying that homosexuals are contrary to nature is just another way to dehumanize them.
Mark from PA: Did you actually read this article? Where do you get your information that “most of the mainstream medical and psychiatric establishment agrees?” There is NO scientific evidence of a gay gene Mark; zero. The real reality in medical science lies in the fact that there is a specific reason for human sexuality, namely reproduction. Hence the sexual parts are referred to as the reproductive organs. Homosexuality uses the reproductive organs for something that can NEVER be reproduction Mark. This is a reality that you are unwilling to accept, but that is science, not some hypothesis of why some people have SSA. The desire does not make it natural.
Mark from PA: If homosexuals are born ‘that way’ than pedophiles are born that way, and of course, neither is true. Sexual behaviour is learned as well as all other behaviours and homosexual men do marry, particularily rich ones, in order to produce heirs. Male homosexuals can have, and have had, normal sexual relations with women, divorce their wives who they have used as brood mares, and choose to return to their homosexual life-styles. The most important word in this paragraph is “choose”.