Name of Church St. Michael Church
Address 458 Maple Street, Livermore CA 94550
Phone number (925) 447-1585
Mass times Saturday vigil 5 p.m. & 7 p.m. (Spanish); Sunday 6:45 a.m., 8 a.m., 9:30 a.m., 11 a.m., 12:30 p.m. (Spanish), 6 p.m. Monday – Friday, 7 a.m. & 8:30 a.m. Saturday, 8:30 a.m.
Confessions Saturdays, 9 a.m., 3:30 p.m., 6:15 p.m., or by appointment.
Music Depends on the Mass; Sunday 9:30 & 11 a.m. have a cantor & choir.
Names of priests Father Van Dinh, pastor. Father Dinh is from Vietnam and a convert from Buddhism. He served as a chaplain in the U.S. Air Force, and was recently installed as pastor of the parish. Father Rafael Hinojosa, parochial vicar. Father Alfred Amos, in residence. Father David Staal, associate. Father Augustine Koilparampil, in residence. Father Stanislaus Poon, retired.
Special parish groups Legion of Mary, Knights of Columbus, Young Ladies Institute, Golden Friends (senior group), Respect for Life, Dress-a-Girl, Prison Ministry, St. Vincent de Paul Society.
Fellow parishioners Majority English-speaking, with a significant-sized Hispanic community.
Cry room Yes, by altar.
Additional observations St. Michael Parish is a historic church in the diocese of Oakland. The parish was founded in 1878; the current church was completed in 1918. It is a beautiful old church, with colorful stained glass windows and representational statues, and traditional church architecture.
Just saw the outside and thought wow, but that turned sour when I saw the inside. No high altar, ripped out communion rail, people’s table in the middle, no statues and first and foremost no Traditional Latin Mass but Mass in the vulgar tongues. Spotted guitar players in the left hand corner as well.
Janek, all brought to you courtesy of Vatican II
I go there when I visit relatives in Livermore. It’s way better than the other parish in town in which I thought they were worshipping in a temporary gyn until I found out it WAS the permanent church. Never went back.
At St. Michael’s since there is an organ upstairs in the back, I wondered why all the musical equipment and singers are in front, which is annoying and distracting to the max. I was told it wasn’t safe upstairs. However, at Christmas or other feasts where the church is packed, dozens of people are up there atending Mass. No excuse, except for nouveaux Catholics want to “interact” with their so-called “audience.” I heard at one time the pastor wanted to turn the parish into a TLM parish, but parishioners were upset, it never happened, and he was transferred.
All very sad and I don’t think things will turn around in my lifetime. Consider it our white martyrdom.
All you see is the lack of the TLM? You would look at a rose and see only the thorns,
And you feed on one another. So sad.
“Janek”: You are correct. This leads to two questions: (1) why ever go there; and (2) why not revolt? Yes, demand a reversal of the “wreckovation” and a return to at least a “conservative” truly Catholic set-up in the Church and a proper liturgy. You people are too much like sheep — demand that the Pastor provide the full Faith, including a respectful liturgy. Of course, many see only a complete return to Tradition, and the TLM, as giving us all back the Faith, but there are “baby steps” to take toward that goal. What you have here is completely sad, feminized, and likely not a place that teaches the Faith. (That is, unless you enjoy babbling in the local lingua franca, taking communion in your filthy hands, slobbering into a communal cup (really good during a time of Ebola concerns, n’est ce pas?), looking at the priest as he celebrates man (and leads in a sacrifice of the Mass), and enjoying diversity as women and girls take over more and more of the Catholic services. It is highly likely that few that regularly go to this Church know much about the Catholic Faith, except that which is consistent with People Magazine’s sense of popular knowledge and responsibility (“be kind . . . let everyone do what they want, as long as they do not hurt you . . . let females do whatever males do . . . respect all sexual choices . . . respect all birth, or not, choices . . . let anyone marry anyone they want . . . believe that everyone goes to Heaven . . . right away”). Stop being afraid of a cruel clergy that often no longer cares about you, except for your money and “obedience” (so that they think that you think they are really doing a great job and are “brilliant”).
St. Christopher, I assume that you have attended Mass at this church several times so that you know whereof you speak. If not, ask yourself how you can make such terrible comments about the hundreds and hundreds of people who attend Mass there every weekend, the hundreds who participate in faith formation programs, the hundreds of women and men who work at parish events, etc. Ah, but you may not have been there ever, because you are mistaken about this parish. Totally wrong! Love others as God has loved you!
St. Christopher wrote, “Stop being afraid of a cruel clergy that often no longer cares about you, except for your money”
Then once again, here comes Bob One, telling St. Christopher “to love others as God has loved you” while Bob One has often belittled, mocked and made fun of Cardinal Burke and Cardinal Burke’s “lacey tablecloth” vestments.
This leads to the next question. How can Bob One say that to St. Christopher and then look at himself in the mirror when he has not loved Cardinal Burke or loved God’s “rules” ( certain teachings)?” Bob One was certainly full-throttle pushing his own little version of a sin-od full of excuses on CCD this week to also undermine Church teaching before he was forced to change into his press secretary damage control gears. That’s because the Synod did not go as well as Bob and Cardinal Kasper had hoped it would. The predictable news IS … Don’t count on Bob to uphold Church teaching, which just happen to be God’s “rules” (so much for Bob talking about loving God as God has loved you) BUT….You can always count on Bob One to come out of the woodwork and talk about his infamous *kumbaya kind of love* especially when posters remind the faithful to NOT give money to any parish that does not clearly uphold “all” Church teaching.
Catherine, welcome back. We missed your head whackings.
Bob One tells St. Christopher, “Love others as God has loved you!” AND only a few hours later he shows his true self and writes, “Catherine welcome back. We missed your head whackings.”
Bob One, Thank you for providing the evidence. Welcome to another example of what is really behind the social justice smiling masks that are being worn by those who are systematically undermining the teachings of the Catholic Church from within.
“Anybody can become angry – that is easy, but to be angry with the right person and to the right degree and at the right time and for the right purpose, and in the right way – that is not within everybody’s power and is not easy.” – Aristotle
“But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, `You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire.”
…and yet even Our Lord threw the sellers out of the Temple, mous. Because He was eaten up with zeal for the house of God. So being liable to judgment means that you will have to answer for your actions – acting out of zeal for the House of God is appropriate.
God bless you and thank you Ann Malley! Anyone who HIDES on a Catholic website while even quoting Our Lord has marketplace motives.
Zeal is a virtue. Anger is a vice.
“….Zeal is a virtue. Anger is a vice.” A good reason why we should all check our purity of intention, Anonymous.
God bless you, too, Catherine. Not sure what mous’s motives are, but they surely provide a vehicle by which to explore the divide in doctrine and what is understood to be doctrine.
Associate – Father David Stall is probably one of the most insightful and thought provoking Homilists in the Diocese of Oakland, and he is more widely respected than any other Priest I know.
Curiously – Father Stall is one of those Married Episcopal Ministers who ‘Poped Up’ when the C of E and its American counterparts were falling apart – and Saint John Paul II (then Pope) invited them in to full Communion with the Catholic Faith – which he transmits with a clarity seldom encountered in any Church.
The new pastor – Father Van Dinh is recently installed, and still putting his mark on a long standing community institution widely respected in the valley.
Yes – there are ‘controversies’ – but nothing to mirror the Pleasanton Pattern just down the road, which had disgraced itself by installing a Pastor (since gone) who was arrested by the Police at a Youth Sports Park Bathroom committing a “Lewd Act” in front of a young looking Undercover Officer – and yet was still promoted, under the old regime.
Hence, for that and a number of other reasons (like Pleasanton’s St. Elizabeth Seaton Church looking more like a playhouse theater than a Church) – many make the drive down the road to Saint Michael’s.
If you have never heard one of Father Stall’s Homilies – They are well worth the drive, and the time – for those who actually pay attention (say instead of reading the bulletin) to the Lesson.
Thank you for your informative additional comments. I like the idea of this series, “Churches worth driving to,” but have found as the series progresses that there is not much description of the content of priests’ homilies or the liturgical praxis. You have provided a great service to faithful Catholics stuck in that part of the Diocese of Oakland by giving pertinent details.
And, Catherine, we have some measure of your sense of humor. But enough of that. You write, and I know you are sincere: Welcome to another example of what is really behind the social justice smiling masks that are being worn by those who are systematically undermining the teachings of the Catholic Church from within.
How in God’s name is social justice systematically undermining the teaching of the Catholic Church? Isn’t social justice what we must do because Christ’s death on the cross saved us all from sin? Isn’t social justice a key component of our Catholic faith? Isn’t taking care of the poor and destitute, feeding the hungry part of our faith? How do we save our souls if we don’t do these things, as a result of what Christ did for us? How do we not try to save the system that rules us from causing more poverty, more unemployment, more hungry and homeless people? I may be Pollyanna about this, but I wonder if we can save our souls if we don’t follow the teachings of Christ relative to our less fortunate brethren. If I am truly trying to undermine the teaching of the church, please show me how I am doing that? What part of dogma don’t I understand? If I don’t support social justice as taught by Christ, what should I support instead? Help me, please!
Wrong on all counts Bob One, the Church has only two jobs, salvation of souls, and creation of saints, the poor will always be with us. You and your ilk uncrowned Christ the King and turned into a community organizer with your liberation theology nonsense. As for you dogma you understand none of it, which is not a surprise it was your crowd that wrecked the liturgy and has done untold damage the Faithful because first and foremost you honestly believe that the Church is nothing more than one giant social welfare organization.
Canisius, you might be interested in the Church’s call for all to work for social justice:
Catholic social teaching is a central and essential element of our faith. Its roots are in the Hebrew prophets who announced God’s special love for the poor and called God’s people to a covenant of love and justice. It is a teaching founded on the life and words of Jesus Christ, who came “to bring glad tidings to the poor . . . liberty to captives . . . recovery of sight to the blind”(Lk 4:18-19), and who identified himself with “the least of these,” the hungry and the stranger (cf. Mt 25:45). Catholic social teaching is built on a commitment to the poor. This commitment arises from our experiences of Christ in the eucharist.
As the Catechism of the Catholic Church explains, “To receive in truth the Body and Blood of Christ given up for us, we must recognize Christ in the poorest, his brethren” (no. 1397).
Catholic social teaching emerges from the truth of what God has revealed to us about himself. We believe in the triune God whose very nature is communal and social. God the Father sends his only Son Jesus Christ and shares the Holy Spirit as his gift of love. God reveals himself to us as one who is not alone, but rather as one who is relational, one who is Trinity. Therefore, we who are made in God’s image share this communal, social nature.
Wrong again Bob One, you always emphasize the material over the spiritual, all the time. Your definition of social justice is not the Church’s. Jesus Christ, who came “to bring glad tidings to the poor . The poor in spirit not the materially poor, you just can’t seem to understand this, the poor will always be with us. Funny thing you are the first to complain about poverty and in the same breath berate capitalism which has lifted more people out of poverty than any welfare program on earth
you don;t seem to get what poverty entails and why jesus was so pro-poverty. think about it for a second. Did he really mean literal poverty? Or did he not ALSO mean literal poverty? Funny thing is that no one in 2 thousand years has claimed to be the impoverished ones Jesus talks about while also being of full belly. Wonder about that for a moment….
Poverty for the sake of poverty or for the ‘feeling’ that one is visibly superior can lead to being just as puffed up, Anonymous.
Canisius, please! The above posting was directly from the teachings of the Bishops. As Catholics, this is how we should behave. It is a direct quote from the USCCB teaching on the Social Justice teachings of the Catholic Church. Go to the source and you will see it.
USCCB ???? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
“It is a direct quote from the USCCB teaching on the Social Justice teachings of the Catholic Church…”
The quote may be from the USCCB, but that doesn’t negate the fact that the teaching leans heavily toward the material while negating the spiritual. That in itself is interesting. And perhaps why we have the USCCB focusing more in immigration than teaching the spiritually poor in parishes across the country.
Ann Malley, you are just so ignorant of Catholicism. SMH
Well, mous, if you believe me to be so ignorant, then it would be your duty to educate in kindness. Sad thing is, you cannot seem to overcome your anger to take the tone of a true teacher. And you also do not understand the material you assume you understand so well. If you did understand it, you wouldn’t continue to respond with such inadequate baits that bespeak nothing but frustration at your own shortcomings. And shaking your head won’t improve your condition. Sorry.
You are not sincere in wanting to learn the Faith.
It is not my duty to instruct you in the Faith.
If you are not willing to educate yourself in the Faith, you will never learn it.
It is your choice and your responsibility.
It is your duty to reach out in Christian Charity, Anonymous. You fail in this regard, castigating others for not knowing the Faith and subsequently backpedaling whenever your understanding of the Faith is challenged. (Faith without works is dead, mous.)
You are insincere in your efforts to do anything but quiet the justifiable observations of fellow Catholics. That’s not Faith, mous, that’s Fascism.
Canisius, have you actually read the Scriptures? Where do you get your nonsense from, certainly not from the Gospels.
Wrong. Christ’s mandates include: Baptize all nations. Love one another as I have loved you. Make fishers of men. Bless the poor, the meek, those who are persecuted.
and finally: Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
” What part of dogma don’t I understand? If I don’t support social justice as taught by Christ, what should I support instead? Help me, please!” = Clear as a bell to those who have eyes that want to see! Follow Christ’s Magisterial teachings yourself first before you run off to serve the poor. Start first by *upholding the teachings that were being trampled on* by some at the Synod. Then your words about lessening the burdens of others won’t ring hollow.
Jesus said, “For the poor you have always with you: **but me you have not always.** For she in pouring this ointment upon my body, hath done it for my burial. Amen I say to you, wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, that also which she hath done, shall be told for a memory of her. ”
Bob One, There is an old expression.. “There is some yeast missing.” That expression matches the history of your posts.
Africa is poor but proving rich in obeying Christ’s Social Kingship. You are in favor of the same undermining brand of social justice that Cardinal Kasper favors. This also places you in the dangerously close realm of behaving like Judas who did not really want to loyally serve only Jesus first so he pretended like you to talk a lot about caring about “the marginalized”. When you obey Christ first then the other necessities flow.
continued from October 20, 2014 at 1:33 pm
Bob One, Cardinal Kasper would call his agenda Catholic social justice too. Listen to Cardinal Kasper’s words about his brother priests from Africa. Bob you posted earlier that words should be attractive when trying to draw others to Christ. Judas also thought that his words sounded attractive when he pretended to care about selling the expensive oil to lessen the burdens of others. Judas did not care because he was really behind the scenes a thief. Judas had also become so blinded with ulterior motives and his duplicity is forever recorded for all to see. Undermining Catholic Church teaching is the modern day attempt at thievery of God’s Revealed Truth. How attractive do you think Cardinal Kasper’s words are about his African brothers in Christ?
“…Africa is poor but proving rich in obeying Christ’s Social Kingship.”
Being poor ‘in spirit’ is what gives a body the ability to see the inestimable value of Christ in the manger. We in the West get blinded by the material and what we think we cannot live without – ALL THE TIME.
Catherine, I disagree with everything Cardinal Kasper has proposed. Why do you think I don’t? Let’s look at the logic of the situation. 1) The church teaches that marriage is indissoluble. The question for the Synod is how the church should respond to a culture that doesn’t agree with that teaching. Same with the same-sex marriage issue. The members of the Synod were not trying to change dogma, but how the Church responds to a culture that thinks its ok. The Catechism says that we should welcome gay people into our church community. It does’t say we should accept their life sexual life style. Two different issues. We need, I think, to get to the point where its ok to discuss variations on pastoral styles without getting all goofy about it. Being pastoral isn’t about changing dogma. We have two choices I think. We can say this is what we believe, take it or leave it, or we can say this is what we believe and let me help you understand why in a way that will be meaningful to you. But in any case, you are welcome in our parish at any time. Is that going against church teachings?
“…But in any case, you are welcome in our parish at any time.” That is nothing new, Bob One. What is new is the belief that further degrading the clarity of what is and isn’t regarding sinful behavior will somehow flower into folks choosing good by way of osmosis.
Why is there such a fear of clarity in speech? Christ was/is clear. Are we not to follow that example, without fear and with complete Faith in Him, not in what we ‘see’ or don’t ‘see’.
Christ didn’t make folks follow Him or soften His speech to cajole the masses into following Him. That in itself must have been the most refreshing balm in a world gone awash in political follow-me (for the sake of ‘me’) agendas. There is much to be said for being a straight shooter and being real with regards to what one actually means – in all charity of course.
But this attempt to gradualize folks into the Truth (while at the same time advertising as much) smacks of baiting people. Like fly fishing. The attitude of treating people like idiots who cannot discern the difference between honesty and a worm-on-a-hook is insulting to human dignity.
You respond to the culture by first safeguarding “all” of the teachings. A safeguarding stitch in time would have been protecting thus simultaneously encouraging the sublime truths for years. This duty has been grossly neglected. As the leadership in the Church goes, the world goes. You may pretend or claim that some the members of the Synod were not trying to change dogma but many in the world will now mistakingly misperceive that it is changed. The father of lies has already gotten quite a bit of mileage off of .”Who am I to judge.” Only an ostrich would deny that.
One minute Pope Francis says, “Who am I to judge but then in another moment he causes even greater confusion and division when he unjustly judges the purity of intentions of so called “do gooders” and infers an accusation on their part of deceptive mercy. Isn’t that judging hearts and intentions? Bob I would like Pope Francis to know that our last Bishop Tod D. Brown also liked to use the hip sounding worldly logo let’s “journey together”. Those words “journey together” in our diocese are now symbolic of jumping off of a cliff. This is a bishop who sent a letter to many priests in the diocese to let them know that he supported homosexual domestic partnerships. That letter was NEVER publicly retracted. How many priests in our diocese are still journeying off of that cliff? What kind of “journey together” is this? Is that not “taking Jesus down off of the Cross, in order to please the people, and not stay there, in order to fulfill the will of the Father; to bow down to a worldly spirit instead of purifying it and bending it to the Spirit of God?”
continued…..Oct 21, 2014 at 11:29
Bob One, This inference of “do gooders” is a very cruel injustice to the many faithful priests in the world who have for years gone out of their way to pastorally reach out in welcoming love to “all” sinners. The faithful are currently witnessing the tail of worldly sins wagging the entire Mystical Body of Christ and this is why the world is “journeying together” away from God. The Catholic Church IS the refuge of all sinners but there ARE many within who are working to pastorally turn the Catholic Church into a “refuge of sin”. Recently I received a letter from a good faithful priest who has never undermined Church teaching let alone be openly critical of the Pope. This letter is the best heartfelt example of the harm and damage that this Synod has caused.
continued from October 21, 2014 at 11:38 am
” LET’S END THIS DELUSION THAT ‘MERCY’ BEGAN ONLY NOW, AFTER 2,000 YEARS!”
Bob One, Our Popes are NOT supposed to cause even more confusion which makes the duty of a faithful priest much, much more difficult. As far as being pastoral, it is WRONG to assume that faithful priests are not welcoming to ALL, including homosexuals. This welcoming business is really a clever smokescreen to welcome “the gifts” whether you want to admit it or not. Maybe not on your part Bob but certainly on the part of many. Also, I have witnessed first hand in our Legion of Mary work the difficulties of remarried Catholics. They do NOT want a pastoral placebo. They want to be lovingly helped to get right with God first. To infer that faithful priests do not care or know how to talk with these couples is an injustice to their Christlike efforts. The faithful priests that I know are incredibly welcoming, pastoral and merciful to all and even to those who are not repentant but simply questioning. On the other hand we have clergy who are NOT faithful to their own vows themselves and tragically they have compromised their vocations with the secular thinking ways of the world. The motto of this recent Synod is “Well if we can’t beat em’ (meaning their own weaknesses or temptations) then we’ll try to convince everyone to pastorally join em and we will even call them “gifts” Bob, This fact is undeniable and the letter from a Catholic bishop supporting the “gift” of homosexual domestic partnership shows that this slow but steady mindset has been taking place for years.
Subject: RORATE CÆLI: President of the Polish Episcopal Conference: – Let’s end this delusion that ‘mercy’ began only now, after 2,000 years! – Familiaris Consortio is sufficient
– The temptation to a destructive tendency to goodness [it. buonismo], that in the name of a deceptive mercy binds the wounds without first curing them and treating them; that treats the symptoms and not the causes and the roots. It is the temptation of the “do-gooders,” of the fearful, and also of the so-called “progressives and liberals.”
Wow, Catherine, Pope Francis warns against the liberals and you criticize him. He is warning against the thing that people here were concerned about, an unquestioning acceptance of those in mortal sin without first working to eradicate that sin. You are getting more and more liberal every day, I guess. Gradualism is what you said you would do with the schismatics and you ended up just defending them.
Catherine, I am sorry that I freaked out on you. As a long term reader I was just shocked by your support for the very thing that you have rebuked others for. Maybe you misread the Pope’s address, I hope?
You are conflating two very different things. Cardinal Kasper would not call his “agenda” Catholic social teaching. He is not that ignorant of Church teaching. Do you know what social justice is?
Read the CCC on the 7th commandment-Thou Shalt Not Steal.
Africa has different problems that the West. Polygamy is considered the natural law. also “machismo,… marriages between teens and preteens, and divorce in cases of sterility or a lack of a male heir, as well as incest and other aberrant practices.”
“In cases of a person’s conversion to the faith, difficulties arise in leaving a second or third wife who bore children and now wants to participate in the Church.
” In Africa marriage is practiced in stages and associated with verifying the fertility of the woman, which implies a sort of bond between the two families in question.”
“Do you know what social justice is?” = Do the groups Call to Action or nuns on the bus ring a familiar bell?
Catherine, Call to Action is a anti-Catholic organization that seeks to change the Church. They are not a social justice organization.
Nuns on the Bus is a political action group. It is not social justice.
Read the CCC 1928-1948.
Ann malley, this is an old tactic of Catherine’s to change every conversation into one about homosexuality. At one point, she was so obsessed with the idea she would hijack every thread to talk about it, even when I wasn’t participating. After consistently pointing this out to her by myself and others, she eventually found some healing for her obsession, for a while at least. Let’s hope her obsession can go back into remission.
You, Ann Malley, however, have an obsession with correcting everyone else’s perceived problems. You try to run interference for anyone who disagrees with the conservative line of thinking. You set yourself up as judge jury and executioner to almost every thread, as you have done here and you do many many times every single day. It must be nice to be so perfect.
“Catherine, Call to Action is a anti-Catholic organization that seeks to change the Church. They are not a social justice organization.
Nuns on the Bus!
Precisely! Anti-Catholic groups within the Church are using the term “social justice” to dismantle specific Church teachings that are in the CCC. They use lies mixed with truths along with the strategy of gradualism to indoctrinate the acceptance of homosexuality (gifts) into the Church. These indoctrinations are cleverly couched in tandem with the teachings in the CCC regarding social justice and the dignity of the person. Here is an example. One teacher used the Blessed Mother as an example of a social justice outcast just like the GLBT are outcasts in society. She said that the Blessed Mother had to hide out also because she was an unwed mother who would be seen as also being different during those times. She said that Mary also knew what is was like to feel social injustice because of the intolerance of others and this is why she hid so she would not be stoned to death. This same teacher was recently invited to instruct people about Obamacare at a local parish. This teacher also mocked the authority of the Magisterium to Confirmation students. So mous, after the Synod there is NO MORE PRETENDING that the true meaning of many of the teachings in the CCC have been strategically distorted under the banner of working for “social justice.” YFC’s posts often reflect this type of distortion of truth.
“Ann malley, this is an old tactic of Catherine’s to change every conversation into one about homosexuality.”
When local bishops and Synod fathers try to change the teaching about homosexuality then it IS “right and just” to consistently change every conversation right back to the authentic teachings of the Catholic Church as stated in the CCC second edition.
Catherine, this is why you have to know the faith. And teach it to your kids.
Catherine, there was nothing, absolutely nothing in the mid-synod relatio that changed one iota of Catholic teahing. Not one iota. You are hijacking every thread into one about homosexuality. This is classic trolling behavior. Because the Bishops took up the question about how to welcome gay people to the Church they already belong to, are you going up to random strangers on the bus and talking about homosexuality yet? Having lunch with friends when they are talking about their hair appointments and their doctor’s medicines, and you suddenly break out into a diatribe about homosexuality? They would look at you a bit strangely, don’t you think? They would ask you if you are feeling OK. I sincerely hope you are feeling OK, but I worry about you when you get this obsessed.
It must be nice, YFC, to be so persecuted in your own mind. Makes for a grand pity party.
As for running interference, yes, I do counter those posts I find to be misleading and/or just plain wrong. Isn’t that what you do with regard to your pet agenda? Of course it is, YFC. So let’s all admit to being grown up and having a purpose for posting. That would be refreshing, don’t you think?
Christ didn’t say, as catherine asserts, obey every teaching of the popes and THEN when you have all your squares in a knot, welcome the poor! Christ was quite clear that service to the poor was FIRST of his commandments. The Maundy Thursday liturgy is clear: Love one another as I have loved you. Part and parcel of the passion and resurrection of Christ is the commandment to love one another, including the poor. “Chirst’s Magisterial Teachings” are ALL ABOUT THE POOR!
But Christ was giving Truth – the Pearl of Great Price – to the poor, YFC. And the ‘poor’ are not just those who are physically and materially wanting, but rather those that have no idea what life is about, that it is far more than just the physical that we can see and touch.
So yes, it is ALL ABOUT THE POOR. But the poorest folks are those who may be filthy rich, but lack the Faith or any comprehension thereof. Whereas often those who are the most poverty stricken, have a great treasure of wisdom with regard to what matters in Truth.
YFC writes THEN when you have all your squares in a knot, welcome the poor! ”
Simply not true! Once again, our Legion of Mary work included meeting many different situations. There were divorced Catholics who remarried and practicing homosexuals with AIDS.
Everyone was invited to return to the sacraments and for those who were not ready then they were still invited to simply attend Mass. Many responded and they knew not to receive Holy Communion because they wanted to be pleasing to God. In all of these different situations had these individuals not been treated kindly or welcomed they would have never invited the priest or the Legion of Mary members into their homes to discuss what was necessary to receive the sacraments in the state of grace. One lady was periodically visited and shown much love for several years. Then one day this same woman called to say that her second husband had died and she asked to be immediately driven to confession. YFC, Stop deliberately inferring that homosexuals and the poor or divorced are treated unmercifully in the Catholic Church. That simply is not true. Stop trying to manipulate the language in order to have mortally sinful acts welcomed as a “gift”.
Who said anything about homosexuality Catherine? Does every conversation have to be about the gay thing? Try see me as a whole person, not simply the result of my sexuality.
Who said anything about homosexuality Catherine? = Pay attention YFC. Those who have abandoned the true faith within the hierarchy of the Church tried to say plenty about homosexuality at the Synod.
How soon they forget. “The John Jay report found that 81% of the victims were male. 22% of victims were younger than age 10, 51% were between the ages of 11 and 14, and 27% were between the ages 15 and 17 years.” = Record numbers of multimillion dollar law suits were paid out “for these so called “gifts and qualities.” If homosexuality was such a “gift and a quality” then that would be AS misleading as stating that the victims of the sex abuse scandals should have to pay the perpetrators for these gifts. Homosexuality is a great Cross to bear and those who suffer from this disorder should NOT be lied to. Every Cross feels unbearable at certain times or else it would not be considered a Cross. If your Cross helps you to surrender your will in complete trust to Almighty God then it will be the Cross that will have been your “greatest gift ” in assisting you to conform to the Will of God.
continued from October 21, 2014
YFC, You must first desire to be seen as a whole person made in the image and likeness of God. Stop identifying yourself by your temptations.
Taken from the Guardian Observer
“In the final report of an extraordinary synod on the family which has exposed deep divides in the church hierarchy, there is no mention – as there had been in a draft version – of the “gifts and qualities” gay people can offer. Nor is there any recognition of the “precious support” same-sex partners can give each other.
A paragraph entitled “pastoral attention to people of homosexual orientation” – itself a distinctly cooler tone than “welcoming homosexual persons” – refers to church teaching, saying there can be “not even a remote” comparison between gay unions and heterosexual marriage.
“Nevertheless,” it adds, “men and women of homosexual tendencies must be welcomed with respect and sensitivity.” They should not suffer from discrimination, it adds. But the shift in tone is clear. And, in a potentially stark sign of the discomfort provoked among many bishop, even this watered-down passage failed to pass the two-thirds majority needed for it to be approved.
One hundred and eighteen bishops voted for the text and 62 against. A Vatican spokesman, Federico Lombardi, said the voting numbers had been released at the behest of Francis, who wanted the process to be transparent.”
If you presented yourself as more than ‘simply the result of your sexuality’ (rather your sexual choices) perhaps folks would stop perceiving you that way, YFC. But the issue Catherine was addressing was the climate in the Synod which addressed communion for divorced and remarried Catholics and some ‘new’ approach to those with same sex attraction.
If discussing these topics renders you feeling targeted because of your sexual preferences, then perhaps you shouldn’t partake in such discussions. But blaming Catherine for bringing up homosexuality is completely disingenuous. Or perhaps you believe Catherine jotted down the outline for the Synod and sent a letter to Cardinal Kasper to bring up these topics just to assail your person…
Thank you Ann Malley!
No, “YFC”. Christ said, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with they whole soul, and with thy whole mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.” Mathew 22: 37-39 (DRA). You put God first, which means His Church, which means his commandments and the Church’s teachings. Service to the poor was certainly important to Christ, but it was not His great commandment.
A key point here, that is everywhere forgotten by Liberals, is that to “love” God, you need to know God, and to know God, you need to know His Word, and His Church. Once you know this, you know what is expected of you as a son, as a person, and as someone who can know and love his neighbor.
Christ did not say that the Church is a social center, and that its teachings must be “fair” in a political, worldly way. The Synod now concluded demonstrated the almost complete absence of Faith by many of the Bishops and Cardinals there. One wonders what will happen in one year. It does no good to “discern” for a year and then come back and create Church policy and direction that discredits hundreds and hundreds of years of Church teachings, and, more importantly, discredits Christ’s own words. If it is OK to do this, then the Church means nothing.
At this church the St Michael Prayer is prayed after every Mass.
Saint Michael parish is the home of a live Nativity scene every Christmas that attracts thousands of visitors. The nativity scene has scores of actors: roman soldiers, shepherds, live camels, sheep, cattle.
I’m with Emma:
“All you see is the lack of the TLM? You would look at a rose and see only the thorns,And you feed on one another. So sad.”
It’s so sad to me that when people in parts of the world are risking their lives to go to mass and face so much persecution for their faith that you can be handed a beautiful parish and gripe about the same thing week after week. You sound so ungrateful and foolish.
There are reasons to fight for the Faith, Carol, as those currently being persecuted are showing us. That is precisely why those you consider foolish and ungrateful are so dogged in pursuing that which, whether you understand it or not, aids the Faith. Specifically, the way in which we pray.
So whereas you rightfully praise those who are risking their lives to go to mass, you are very much lauding the reality that actions speak louder than words. And the solemnity, dignity, and proper order maintained in the TLM do that above and beyond the Latin language.
TLM parishes are growing, Carol, and producing vocations. Those are the fruits of Faith. Sadly, the fruits of the diocesan norm have been school closures, protests over Church doctrine, and the continued loosening of Catholic moral teaching. If folks are increasingly willing to throw off the Faith because they do not agree with the ‘Church’s’ stance on, say, birth control, would they be prepared to risk their life to go to mass?
In light of the pre-Synod questionnaire, shouldn’t there be a reassessing about ‘why’ and ‘how’ exactly the ‘faithful’ have come to such a dramatic dismissal or rejection of Catholic moral teaching? So while you’re thinking it is ‘sad’, I’m thinking it is rather counter-purpose to not root cause the facilitators of such a change in ‘Faith’ if one can call it that. The ‘new’ mass is a realistic place to start, Carole, as much can be traced back to its inception.
Again, we go back to why the Church’s numbers are dwindling in the United States. Until we know why, until we actually interview those who are voting with their feet, we will never know why and will be left to speculate. Missionary work in places like Africa prove that we CAN grow the Church with the “new” Mass. Our experience in places like Brazil and Argentina, where protestant churches poach Catholics prove that lack of Latin is hardly the reason people leave the Church. But I also don’t think that someone who has abandoned the Roman Catholic faith for a dissident chapel is hardly the person to be trusted to give us an honest answer about how to more perfectly adhere to Christ’s call to make disciples of all nations. We see that people who abandon Roman catholicism for schismatic chapels lack a basic adherence to the Apostolic mission in the first place. Fidelity to the Church is replaced by nostalgia for “eternal” liturgies that were never any more instituted by Christ than those we celebrate today. They plant not seeds of the Good News, but seeds of division and hatred amongst the faithful. This itself cannot help but fog the very message of the Gospel for those with hearts that are open to hearing it. An honest critique of the Church, not one that promotes one’s own nostalgic or political interests, would help to transform us into a missionary Apostolic Church, capable of baptizing new members. Unfortunately, we have too much division amongst us, as we see on CCD and at the Synod, for us to answer the questions that the world is asking us.
“…But I also don’t think that someone who has abandoned the Roman Catholic faith for a dissident chapel is hardly the person to be trusted to give us an honest answer about how to more perfectly adhere to Christ’s call to make disciples of all nations.”
You don’t think perhaps because you have your own dissident agenda, YFC, one you are intent on pursuing inside the Church and for very specific reasons. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous as you well know. As for ‘voting with their feet’, Faith is not a matter of voting. Maintaining Faith is not political, much as you seem to wish it were as you continue to promote duality with regard to what constitutes a faithful or fellow Catholic and at the same time one pursuing the ‘rights’ of that which the Church rightfully calls disordered. That is sowing division, YFC, right here on CCD. And sowing division in the Church while portraying oneself as being in full communion.
So while you attempt to recast my narrative to intimate a nostalgia for what is old, I will say again that in times of trial it is highly logical to reassess novelty and that which was being produced prior to the fruits turning bad or disappearing.
Why you are fearful of the TLM or even the realistic discussion thereof is quite telling, YFC. I know you have your own attachments and that is natural. But the TLM produced much abundant fruit, throughout centuries. The Novus Ordo, despite even best intentions, has proven rife with problems as many aspects of the rite are used/modified at the discretion of the priest. That is what leaves the rite open to be a vehicle of division, as the disparity of solidarity at the Synod will, quite naturally, bear fruit down to the parish level, effecting the mass itself.
If your interest is to promote true Christian unity, I cannot help but think it is personal bias that would preclude you from critically reviewing such a phenomenon, YFC. What, pray, are you afraid of?
Dear Ann Malley, you have a lot to learn about the Sensus Fidelium. As you do about so many other Catholic issues.
In addition, if you accurately (and not willfully lying, as you are oft want to do..and claiming that it is not sinful) portray my postings, you would see that I am not AT ALL opposed to or fearful of the TLM. I am simply opposed to those who seek it outside of Holy Mother Church. Please read carefully, lest you condemn yourself. You seek out the TLM in Churches that do not receive their ordinations from Rome, but from a schismatic group. This is where you and I differ. You yourself choose not to attend mass by a priest in accordance with Rome. Even a homosexual like me can understand the difference.
Take my post for what it is worth. Don’t read into it, as you are want to do, any gay agenda. Read it for the Clear fellow Catholic post that it is. If you do that, you will see that it contains no agenda, no gay issues, no attempt to change doctrine. Read it as it is…
The sense of the Faithful is precisely what kicked in with folks balking at the idea of giving communion to the divorced and civilly remarried and getting cozy with the idea of homosexual unions. One has to have the basics of that which is Catholic before they can form a sense of the faithful. The operative word being ‘faithful’, not in tuned with one’s own feelings as a lukewarm cultural Catholic or one that wants to treat Faith like an ever changing kaleidoscope.
Despite what your skewed belief system is, the ordinations of the priests I know are completely valid. They are considered as much in Rome. I understand that you may have your own desires for where the Faith will go, (hence the attempt to play Pope and proclaim schism where there is none) most humans do when it comes to dealing with fallen human nature, but we cannot allow the deposit of the Faith to be skewed by whatever sins are now in popular demand. The sense of just being fair or logical wouldn’t allow it.
Again, try not to focus on the ‘gay’ issue or the hoped for gag of ‘schismatic’ and look to the issue of root causing a problem in the Church. The fruits of the TLM and traditional practice are there for our usage and study if nothing else. The rejection of looking to tradition is tantamount to being too progressive to ask one’s grandparent, “What did you do to solve this type of a problem back in the day?”
What with Pope Francis telling us to respect the older generation and to give them proper place in society – which they SHOULD have – why would one give them that place only to ignore the very practical medicines used ‘back in the day’.
Poachers of God’s natural law are not in full communion with anyone except the father of lies.
“Poachers of God’s natural law”. Who are you talking about? Poachers? really?
“Poachers of natural law”. Really Catherine, you don’t think I won’t undrerstand this as your attempt to divert this converwation into one about homosexuality? Really? You are still so obsessed with the notion of homosexuality that you cannot even engage in a conversation about why people are leaving the Church? Like, really???
Apologies, for some reason my post at 4:07 PM showed up as anonymous. It was my own post.
You bring up the gay thing with every post, YFC, specifically by attempting to castigate others for not being with the Church while at the same time presenting yourself as a ‘faithful’ Catholic. So which is it? Do you want to be perceived as the gay rights civil activist, working to change Church teachings, or the faithful Catholic attempting to live the Faith. Rather difficult to do when you advertise that you have a spouse who is male.
Please stop blaming Catherine for the dichotomy you yourself are living and posting here. Take ownership of your dual personality for that at least, to me, would lend you further credibility.
That said, you should be thanking Catherine for she is providing you with a sticking post for many of your own issues. But that won’t help you in the long run. And it doesn’t fool anyone either which is, in some ways, the saddest aspect of your continued attempts to blame her.
The thinking of people who will leave the Church to attend a Latin Mass are profoundly different than those who attend diocesan Latin Masses. No one should be holding them out as something to emulate. If they are not already in error and heresy, the run the risk of becoming influenced by those who are. This is not something to hold up as an example.
Anonymous, you assume that the thinking of those who attend the Latin Mass outside a diocesan Latin Mass are profoundly different. That is a grand and unsubstantiated supposition. You assume too much. And whereas you may have your own experiences in the matter, you cannot speak for all. (You regularly remind me that I have no idea what goes on at a diocesan mass because I do not go there – this despite my diocesan experiences. Well, by that logic, you have to yield that you do not know the mindset of every Catholic that seeks the TLM. You could not unless you possess some preternatural gift you haven’t disclosed.)
Pointing out facts and or discussing a subject rationally is not a matter of emulating ‘somebody’. Perhaps that is your issue here, but it is not the issue when it comes to root causing the downward spiral in the ‘faith’ of the ‘faithful’. For it is not the person that is in question, but rather what logic is being proposed, especially that logic which is in accord with what the Catholic Church holds to be true in Her written doctrine.
Again, I don’t know why some folks aren’t willing to explore every avenue – even the dreaded possibility that the TLM has the potential to bear more fruit – if the real objective is to rebuild and restore the Faith.
So you are saying that all people who attend the TLM are deficient in their fatith. I strongly contend otherwise.
…if attending a diocesan TLM makes you feel superior in Faith, or if you have been led to believe that you are someone the elite because *you* attend a diocesan TLM, that is a problem, mous. I have the same pov about those at independent chapels who hold a superiority in their heart.
But even if you were (and I’m not speaking about what you feel.), that would be a gift from God, not something for a person to brag on as gifts can be retracted and circumstances changed. You should rather give thanks for what you have been given and not make broad assumptions about others.
If you’re the anonymous I think you are, you travel over 2 hours (was it 2?) to get to a diocesan TLM. Don’t let that go to your head, mous, even though it is a sacrifice. Our Lord likes a joyful giver, not one who chides his fellows by touting the size of *his* cross while deriding the size of another’s burden. Without Christ, you couldn’t carry any cross. No matter how faithful you think *you* are.
But again, your strong contentions are not about the actual Faith, but rather about who has more and who has less. That’s not my department, mous, much as you continue to say that it is. Reminds me of those women who foolishly contend with one another over the number of children they have, somehow attributing more fidelity or whatever because *they* have 12 while another only has 8. Such nonsense. Misses the point entirely.
These schismatics won’t approve of what you say. Their entire point is to sow division.
Are you implying that some of the Bishops at the Synod are schismatic, mous? There was a shocking division there, to be sure. Who, pray are the schismatics that you’ve identified. Please, call them out so that we may all be warned. But, since these individuals are in ‘full communion’, what is a body to do?
Carol, you are correct. I often wonder how offended God is by us. He stays 24/7 in the Blessed Sacrament waiting for us to get off our electronic devices and come to visit with Him. He gives us His Word but we prefer the words of gossip and dissension. He is Perfection but we prefer to pick on the imperfect humans who follow Him rather than keep our attention fixed on Him.
Bless you for your admonishment.
I’m kind of stunned by the whole conversation really. I’m a straight married woman who loves the TLM.(I’m not sure how the bishops, homosexuality or the synod is in any way relevant here, honestly. Get a grip.) I asked for TLM for my wedding and was denied. Requested one again in writing and was denied. It breaks my heart that it’s not in more places. I even agree with Alice Von Hildebrand who called the novus ordo ‘”impoverished” compared to the TLM. But I can still look at these parishes and see them for what they are – the light of Christ in the world. Yes, I love the TLM but in our world that can frequently be so dark and ugly, even the novus ordo can be the light. It pains me that week after week you tear down these parishes as though they were intrinsically evil or something. These parishes are full of people who love them and priests who work very hard to run them. Can’t you just say it’s not your style and leave it at that? Do you have to make it out to be something wrong? Would you say that to Christ? It is HIS church that he suffered and died for – when you come face to face with almighty God is the first thing you’re going to do is explain to Him why he was wrong for allowing the novus ordo? Yes, that sounds foolish to me.
Thank you anonymous. Some of my rhetorical questions are directed to Catherine and Ann Mallay, not you.
“vulgar tongues”…? – …maybe they are in in the mouths of those who use such strong words…