Name of Church St. Hedwig Church
Address 11482 Los Alamitos Blvd., Los Alamitos, CA 90720
Phone number (562) 296-9000
Mass times Saturday vigil, 5:30 p.m. Sundays, 8 a.m., 10 a.m., noon & 5:30 p.m. Monday – Saturday, 8:30 a.m.
Confessions Saturdays, 4-5 p.m., Wednesdays, 6:30 p.m.
Names of priests Father Christopher Heath, pastor. Father Khoi Phan, parochial vicar. Father Heath is an orthodox priest, has a good head for the faith, is a great homilist, and is a reverent liturgist. He’s been a priest for 25 years, and became pastor of St. Hedwig a year ago.
Special groups/activities Knights of Columbus, Respect Life, various Guilds, Contemplative Prayer and Eucharistic Adoration groups, Secular Franciscan Order, St. Vincent de Paul Society.
Music Depends on the Mass: piano & cantor, choirs.
School Yes, K-8th grade.
Fellow parishioners This is a mostly middle-class, English-speaking community.
Parking There’s parking in lots alongside and beside the church. You can park on Los Alamitos Blvd., but it is a busy street.
Cry Room No.
Acoustics OK.
Additional observations St. Hedwig is a church of the diocese of Orange, located in the small city of Los Alamitos in the northwestern end of Orange County. It began with the establishment of nearby St. Isidore Church in 1921; St. Hedwig Church was completed in 1960 and St. Isidore finally closed in 1999 (today, its historic buildings are a historical plaza). St. Hedwig’s was eventually renovated, with the renovated church re-opening in 1990. It’s a modern church, and would not be a favorite of those who prefer traditional church architecture (take a tour of the church on the parish website) but has a faithful pastor.
An orthodox priest would gut the current church interior install a high altar, communion rail, statues, and first and foremost implement the Traditional Latin Mass!!
Pray for one and it could happen! In the meantime, support the guy in there! He’s not evil, the devil is – remember you have a common enemy!
https://www.dezeen.com/2012/01/25/alain-de-botton-plans-temples-for-atheists/ …a very brief little article that might make you aware that you need to understand WHO and WHAT a modern architect is and what the purpose of architecture is. I notice a distinct disconnect in any discussions here about the lives and philosophies and religion (or lack thereof) of designers who affect us every day of our lives. Here is the closing paragraph “Even the most convinced atheists tend to speak nicely about religious buildings. They may even feel sad that nothing like them gets built nowadays. But there’s no need to feel nostalgic. Why not just learn from religions and build similarly beautiful and interesting things right now?'”
Too many of the hideous buildings we call churches these days reflect the personal attitudes and beliefs of some really nasty people. Shouldn’t that bother so-called faithful Catholics? Oh, that’s right, we’re having temper tantrums when we object to the onslaught of satanism in our church homes.
Having been involved in the arts my entire life (my grandfather was an artist and our house was full of his efforts) I can only say that we’re being deceived and cheated by phony hucksters and flim flam artists because no one bothers to read up on even the most basic things https://www.iep.utm.edu/m-aesthe/
It most assuredly isn’t a matter of ‘you have your way and I have my way of looking at things.
In case the last part is cut off…Having been involved in the arts my entire life (my grandfather was an artist and our house was full of his efforts) I can only say that we’re being deceived and cheated by phony hucksters and flim flam artists because no one bothers to read up on even the most basic things https://www.iep.utm.edu/m-aesthe/
It most assuredly isn’t a matter of ‘you have your way and I have my way of looking at things. There are eternal truths, always, and especially in the arts. Ignorance may be bliss but it sure leads to some strange and shallow ideas. I have never studied architecture but like all the arts, the same network of rules apply…it’s not a haphazzard science but must follow precedent and the law of Nature, just as in religion. Sometimes I think the adulation of F.L.Wright and M.van der rohe are relgions, but that’s another story.
“…I notice a distinct disconnect in any discussions here about the lives and philosophies and religion (or lack thereof) of designers who affect us every day of our lives.”
There is a distinct disinclination to rational discussion about the ‘why’ and ‘how’ we have gotten to where we are as a Church. This is a true shame for it impedes credibility in almost every avenue for it smacks of the very blind-obedience that many outside the Church find distasteful in thoughts of joining.
You have such a great sensibility Ann!
The rest of my comment got deleted! Oops. I think what I wrote was how can we “reason” with people when they seem quite willing to accept the “minimalist” and sophisticated garbage being foisted on them under the guise of being high art when to reject it might brand them philistines? When even such cultural giants as the late Stratford Caldecott and the brilliant Roger Scruton have failed to make a dent in the thinking of our Church worthies, how can we? Perhaps “No man is an island” but all these local priests and bishops sure act as if their choices affect no one but themselves. Frankly, I think they’re all being granted far too much authority and independence in architecture, music and art…not to mention, liturgy!
I could not agree more, Dana…and yet you have those crying out that the ‘full’ implementation of Vatican II would be to grant greater authority to local bishops conferences. Under the guise of being more like the ‘primitive’ Church. The Pope being merely the first among equals.
The wink-wink underpinnings are the desire to destroy Faith and any hope of unity by behaving as if the Church is merely meeting local ‘cultural’ needs when, in reality, they’d be teaching a different doctrine by way of practice. (And that is precisely what is going on already.)
That’s why you have one diocese where those openly promoting mortal sin are welcome in ‘full communion’ while just a hop and skip away at another diocese/state these erring Catholics who openly scandalize ALL Catholics thanks to world media are rightfully denied Sacraments.
When these types of disconnects are brought up – even for the sake of getting a handle on how to evangelize non-Catholics about this absurdity – one gets batted down as ‘Not recognizing Holy Mother Church’ or being schismatic. And while I understand the motives of loyalty that inspire some who react this way, the schismatic nature of the brain that engages such non-logic when attempting to evangelize the Truth is damaging in the extreme.
The leveling out of authority (or rather adherence to the fullness of the deposit of the Faith) is Protestant in nature, much like the changes that gave us the NO vs the TLM.
Your fellow Catholic, I think you misunderstood what I was saying completely. I was saying this parish should NOT be assailed because it has the NO mass. If you take the parenthesis out of my sentence it says, in part ” . . . . and I’m concerned with telling them where they are is wrong or inferior.” Perhaps that wasn’t the best put together sentence I used there. But in other words, this parish is wonderful and the light of Christ in the world. I prefer the TLM, I find it a superior form of the mass, but that’s my opinion, it’s not Church teaching. If I were to tell someone why I like the TLM I wouldn’t start with a litany of complaints about the NO. That’s all I was trying to say. Hope that helps.
Dana, I agree. “It most assuredly isn’t a matter of ‘you have your way and I have my way of looking at things.” I’m with the Catholic Church of which this parish is a part of and it’s painful to see it assailed because of the NO. I’m not willing to accept the “minimalist” – I regularly attend the TLM. I just know there are people are don’t know about the TLM and why it’s superior and I’m concerned with telling them where they are (even if it’s attending the impoverished NO mass) is wrong and inferior. Although this might be true, I don’t see it as persuasive or helpful. What is helpful is meeting them where they are at and leading them in the right direction. I know this because someone vastly more ahead of me once showed me the way.
Carol there are many very reverent Ordinary form masses too. With holy priests who are fairhful to Rome. The OF mass and the EF mass are both holy.
Carol. Meeting them where they are? seriously? You view yourself as assailed by the Church of Rome and its mass? You spew false accusations against a valid mass, that it is somehow inferior, that it is wrong. That it is impoverished. That people somehow need to be lead away from the Mass that is celebrated everywhere throughout the world? Seriously, I hope you are joking, because otherwise you are a heretic.
“…What is helpful is meeting them where they are at and leading them in the right direction. I know this because someone vastly more ahead of me once showed me the way.”
Carol, again, you’re limiting yourself based on one whom you perceive to be vastly more ahead of you. Good grief. This tender approach is great for some. Not so for others.
That said, it is painful to see this parish assailed because of the Novus Ordo. THAT is precisely what stokes the passions of many who hope and, yes, pray that this parish would be gifted with the TLM and that which is full in practice.
God bless you, Carol, but your prejudice against the methodology of others smacks like that of say the Dominicans believing they have it over the Franciscans in approach. Embrace your charism of motherliness. Give others the leeway to be more masculine or direct or plain speaking.
Ugly As Sin: Why They Changed Our Churches from Sacred Places to Meeting Spaces – Michael S. Rose
Ugly as Sin by Michael S. Rose
This book’s central point is that church architecture shapes and defines our attention.
Haphazard, sloppy, ugly modern churches lead our attention in haphazard, sloppy ways, perhaps even ultimately ugly ways. Hence: ugly as sin. On the other hand, traditional and beautiful Catholic architecture can – through a multitude of ways and means – orient and concentrate our attention towards a transcendent focus.
“Through a multitude of ways and means”: that is to say, the way the various elements are ordered in a church, the natural lines of attention they form, and much, much else besides.
Rose shows how everything in a beautiful Catholic church focuses us towards the Church’s very raison d’etre – to be a temple of God, to be a place where people come for Holy Communion. Because Holy Communion is Holy Communion. Holy Communion being precisely what its name says: communion with the Holy …
In a very simple, non-technical and accessible way, Rose takes us through the means by which classical churches focus our attention in a conscious way. And how modern churches so often fail us.
Yes, his text is simple, but the effect of reading it on me was profound. Quite profound. It hit me, very, very powerfully.
After Rose has so skillfully pointed out the difference between a church oriented to transcendence and a haphazard church oriented to sloppiness … sloppy attention …
Any Church with statues of Mary, Our Lady of Grace and St. Joseph with the Christ Child should not be run down.
No, just bulldozed, would suffice nicely. (after removing all the relics, statues, paintings, etc. naturally) :)
……okay, we need to write that scathingly sarcastic book now. Whatever the topic. Thanks for the laugh.
Ha. Alas, it has been written, Ann…
By John Zmirak.The Bad Catholic’s Guide to the Seven Deadly Sins (Crossroad). He’s very devout but that doesn’t keep him from being incredibly funny. His website is https://badcatholics.com/site/
He has a new book out on the Catechism.
Thanks for the link. So good to have orthodoxy and humor in the same individual. Too many attempt to paint traditional minded folks as somehow stiff and too serious. Not so, not so!
Wow, so positive and encouraging! Way to be the light of Christ!
Yes, indeedy, Carol…in happy clappy land we must all march to the modern drum or we’re cranks and malcontents. In Camazotz we bounce our balls to the same height and leave for work at the same time from sterile houses built on the same geometric lines. :) But if you were given the choic, would you rather attend Mass at Notre Dame in Paris or Our Lady of the Angels in L.A.?
Shame on you, Locutus – I mean, Dana, you will now be sent back for further indoctrina…I mean sensitivity training. Else wise you will no longer be part of the body.:O
But keep in mind – RESISTANCE IS FUTILE! And no using those five senses unless given permission by the oversight committee.
Before we know it oncologists who accurately diagnose the cause of a malignant cancer will be labeled as “Inhibitors of the Peace”. Simply pretend that the cancer does not exist or that it is not spreading. All is well and it also saves millions of dollars on Obamacare due to a quicker death.
Heh heh. You’re so amusing Ann Did you read Anon. response ? I’ve often heard it said that laughter keeps the devil at bay, but Anon. says a joke will send us to hell. I personally think God loves us to laugh and be merry…there’s a time for everything.
Right on, Catherine, and as long as everyone has their Jane Jetson smiley mask to put on EVERYBODY IS healthy. Clear? Reminds me of the kids forced to cheer at Gadaffi state executions. They were so happy and very entertained. See the smiling faces :)
Catherine, what are you talking about? It is not the job of oncologists to diagnose the “cause” of cancer. It is their job to diagnose the cancer itself.
Dana, I’ve done both. i would take LA any time because I like to be in church with other people. In Paris you would be alone except for a few old ladies in black. By the way, did you know that Notre Dame is owned by the government, not the church?
I’m well aware of it, Bob…just as I’m well aware that the magnificent cathedrals in England were stolen from The Catholics that built them. The Catholic Church still holds Masses in Notre Dame, however, that are not sponsored by the socialist state. I personally go to Mass to worship God, for that is what we are created for…”Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God.” I love chatting with people after Mass, but have never, in my entire life, gone to any Church service with the intent of visiting people. It’s about obedience and love, isn’t it? That’s why a church building is called God’s House, Bob. We go there to honor Him.
Bob One writes,” In Paris you would be alone except for a few old ladies in black. ” = Sounds like Catholic Charities has also been a very bad influence on Bob One.
“i would take LA any time because I like to be in church with other people.” = Notice that the elderly Bob One failed to say that he liked to be in church because of Our Lord.
Why? Why can’t people just be holy? Why do they have to indulge their mean senses of humor? Why go to hell for a joke?
There is a certain holiness to be had in maintaining a sense of humor and lightheartedness, mous. That is something you do not understand. As for going to hell, those without the ability to laugh, even at themselves, often make hell right here before dragging others down to the Devil right with them.
You can make excuses for anything.
It is not holy AT ALL to amuse yourself, to humor yourself at someone else’s expense.
Traditional Catholicism strongly condemns this behavior.
It is not OK to be lighthearted about evil.
People with no ability to laugh do not make people’s lives hell. It is abusive people who mock and laugh at and deride and demean and belittle people who make people miserable and no, their victims do not go to hell with them. They gain merit just like when the soldiers did it to Jesus.
That is no excuse, mous, but reality. Nobody is joking about sin, but rather being light hearted with regard to our own human frailty.
Your being sensitive does not make everyone else automatically ‘mocking’ or ‘abusive’. Often you misinterpret posts and stubbornly resist any attempt to understand that subjects, agendas, and methodologies are what is being discussed. And no amount of trying to make it personal by decrying oneself as a hapless victim who looks to how others treat ‘them’ instead of how the material or subject is being treated will change that. It just keeps the personal spin going which is often the idea so as to get away from the actual subject matter.
Have a great Christmas just the same!
Inside you feel like you’re in Costco..not a catholic church! you have to look very carefully to find the Eucharistic Candle….
Have you been to this parish?
This is a ridiculous church, and no “orthodox” priest would stand for it for one minute. Why not call it a Protestant Church, because that is what it looks like.
One wonders, too, what the attending Catholic parishioners are taught and believe. Often, Zombie-Liberal pastors create Zombie-Liberal congregations; they would like this non-Catholic interior.
Any relation to this awful interior and the redo of the “Crystal Cathedral”? Wait, wait — are you saying that the Diocese of Orange might be imposing a sterile, non-Catholic reverse-Orthodoxy on its unsuspecting Catholics? Chirp, chirp, chirp . . . nyuk, nyuk, nyuk. (but the bishop does a great job in squeezing money out of wealthy Catholic donors — surely enough to buy a few statues of Mary, altar rails, and the like. Do they have kneelers?)
Jesus was born in a stable and laid in a manger.
And?
And, sometimes stomping your feet and being demanding isn’t the example Christ set for us.
Carol,
Any bishop who selectively stomps on the teachings and the traditions of the faithful, including the faithful Hispanic immigrants who worked hard to build St. Isidore’s, is NOT following the example Christ set for us. These faithful Catholics were also heartbroken when they were asked to leave their Traditions and traditional looking chapel and then FORCED to attend Mass inside a cold looking airplane hangar called St. Hedwig. Even if the St. Isisdore chapel was now considered too small how extremely cruel to not consider the hard work sacrifices and the feelings of these Catholics too. It is no different that what was done to Catholics in forcing them to suddenly accept the modern and ugly Crystal Cathedral. I attended several meetings with the heartbroken people of St. Isidore’s. Their tears and their sadness in having their traditions removed was valid. The diocese of Orange was cold heartless and cruel. These immigrants held out hope that Bishop Jaime Soto was going to help them but this never happened. A donor even came forward to pay for the earthquake retrofitting but the Diocese of Orange still cruelly sent these lovers of Tradition to attend Mass inside a modern building where the interior was designed by someone who hates the teachings of the Catholic Church. That is NOT the example that Christ asked his shepherds to set. Hiding and sweeping evil and cruel injustices under the rug is not Christlike.
continued……..
How DECEPTIVE to manipulatively use the immigrant to “facilitate” agendas and then selectively STOMP on the immigrant when Tradition is involved.
OC Register
Los Alamitos’ St. Isidore: A landmark in limbo
Part of California History
“St. Isidore Parish was established in 1921. Holy Family in Orange and St. Anne in Seal Beach were established the same year. There were only five Parishes established in Orange County prior to 1921, the first being San Juan Capistrano. These parishes were originally part of the Los Angeles/Monterey Diocese.”
People of the Community Built the Chapel
There is a deep history of commitment from the descendants of the original parishioners and community members who built this church with their own hands in 1926. The land was donated by the Bixby Land Co. with a title transfer fee of $10 ($132 today).
https://www.stisidorehistoricalplaza.org/index.php/31-save-this-landmark/save-this-landmark
St. Isidore Chapel Windows
There are ten beautiful stained glass windows that light the Chapel with a warm, glorious glow. The exact date of production and artist of the windows is unknown. Each window was funded by a private donation. The donor’s name or family name is presented at the bottom of the window with the exception of one, which simply states, “Pray for the Donor.” Due to neglect, these windows have suffered various degrees of damage and wear. They too need to be saved and restored.
Stained Glass Windows:
St. Anthony
The Assumption
Immaculate Heart of Mary
Jesus
Joseph
St. Jude
Nativity
Philomena
Rosary
Sacred Heart
https://www.ocregister.com/articles/isidore-525906-city-comit.html
https://www.stisidorehistoricalplaza.org/index.php/31-save-this-landmark/save-this-landmark
And sometimes it is…..
I agree, Canisius. After all, we are instructed in the pursuit of that which is good to behave in the manner of the woman and the judge, wherein the woman would not leave off pursuit of the judge until just judgement was rendered. This milquetoast proposal of what it means to be Christian is so off-putting. Especially to the young who often desire nothing more than a righteous cause in which to immerse themselves….
“Any relation to this awful interior and the redo of the “Crystal Cathedral”? ”
The Crystal Cathedral was very appealing to those who are more interested in systematically removing the last vestiges of traditional Catholicism.
Juergensen said it best…. “Why build a new Protestant Church when you can have the real thing.”
Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t mean it is ugly.
Just because you don’t want it, doesn’t mean it isn’t God’s gift to someone else.
And to accuse people who like the Crystal Cathedral of systematically removing the last vestiges of traditional Catholicism is an insult to God.
Why don’t you have more faith?
Do you really think that God has the same tastes in art and architecture that you do?
Thank you. Just because it’s doesn’t suit you, doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
The ‘libido delendi’ that seized the Church, the desire to obliterate… everything
Posted on 16 December 2014 by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf
“The elimination of altars and communion rails is the obliteration of sacred art. The obliteration of sacred art is the flattening of liturgical language. The flattening of liturgical language is the abandonment of ageless chants and hymns. The abandonment of those chants and hymns is the forgetting of immemorial devotions and prayers. The forgetting of those prayers is the secularization of time. The secularization of time is the laicization of clergy and religious. Their laicization is the rage to deny the mysteriousness of the faith. The denial of that mystery implies the building of churches as neutral spaces. The building of such churches is the destruction of churches like Saint Anne’s, and, as an ultimate but never to be realized aim, the destruction of Christ’s Church on earth.”
https://wdtprs.com/blog/2014/12/the-libido-delendi-that-seized-the-church-the-desire-to-obliterate-everything/
Here is the link to the article. It is from Anthony Esolin at Crisis Magazine.
https://www.crisismagazine.com/2014/another-masterpiece-slated-destruction
Anonymous, Thank you for posting the link!
If I were wanting to make an “orthodox” priest’s life miserable I would indeed send him to this parish “church”. No doubt, whoever destroyed that church building, also laid destruction to Church teaching. I would imagine that the majority of those parishioners who remain are just fine with the changes. At any rate it seems clear to me that the “remodeling” done to that church was “pennies on the dollar”. Restoring that Church will not be easily done.
It’s a modern church, and would not be a favorite of those who prefer traditional church architecture (take a tour of the church on the parish website) but has a faithful pastor.
From the article
“No doubt, whoever destroyed that church building, also laid destruction to Church teaching.” = We are viewing just one of the many destructive works across the U.S. of ex priest Rod Stephens of SACRA FORMA Design Studio, Irvine CA. Rod Stephens would probably STILL be the Director of Evangelization and Liturgy for the Diocese of Orange and perhaps now even promoted to a Monsignor in reward for his dedication in promoting “those gifts” within the Church had the laity not spoken out.
https://www.zoominfo.com/p/Rod-Stephens/33295698
Rod Stephens SACRA FORMA Design Studio, Irvine CA
Rod is the Founder and Director of SACRA FORMA, a design studio since 1974 for architecture, graphics, and liturgical consultation. He studied at Art Center College of Design in Pasadena and in studios throughout Europe. His liturgical interiors, designs, and sculptures have won awards from the American Institute of Architects (AIA) and other sacred space publications. Rod is currently the chair of the AIA INTERFAITH FORUM ON RELIGIOUS ART AND ARCHITECTURE, which annually honors sacred spaces with a series of awards. His architectural designs, interior designs, sculptures, drawings, and graphics have appeared in numerous national publications and have been used by many religious communities and national organizations, especially for conventions and sacred space projects.
Have you actually been to this parish – do you know your litany of complaints apply here? My guess is no.
Consider there are many who risk their lives to attend mass. Having been in missions in 3rd world countries where mass is rare and the priest makes all the difference in the world, your complaints sound petty. I would love to hear a well formed priest and that alone would, and has, made the Church worth driving to in the past for me on more than one occasion.
“Carol” you and “Your Fellow Catholic” simply love to obfuscate issues. No, any old architecture will not do to house the body and blood of Jesus Christ and those that wish to adore Him. No, it is not OK that Liberals have literally torn out centuries of architecture and art to suit their sense of taste and style.
Why do you think that all this “wreckovation” was done? Answer: to make “New Catholic” churches much more appealing to Protestants. Even Liberals reject your logic.
Architecture and art and liturgy are tremendously important to our worship and Mass. By creating a welcoming environment for those that do not want to be part of us, the message is clear: we do not like ourselves, either. We want to change and become relevant to the world (and not to our own Tradition).
You and YFC will likely be very happy with what is about to happen at the 2015 Synod. Out with centuries of “doctrine”; remember that Francis dislikes anything Traditional about the liturgy anyway, so now his “welcoming” can be in vacant “Eucharistic Halls” without any Catholic adornment, music, and ceremony. This is why the Church is simply awful, because it is visual testimony to a rejected Church and religion, and an embrace of “Modernity”. Avoid.
“O beautiful, for spacious skies, for amber waves of grain, has there ever been another place on earth where so many people of wealth and power have paid for and put up with so much architecture they detested as within thy blessed borders today” Tom Wolfe. (From Bauhaus to Our House). Since the invasion of European (especially German) intelligensia after WWI the beautiful and humane art, architecture etc of this country was taken over and dominated by these atheist and aesthetic effete snobs, This ongoing debate about modernist churches doesn’t take place in a vacuum…these cold and desolate boxes reflect a whole movement that is anti-religious and inhumane and incongruous with worshipping God or expressing a love of beauty and truth. This post-nazi bunker style architecture dominates the skylines of most of our cities. How incredibly sad that Christians would embrace this hideous rebellion against God in buildings more suited to sterile, 1984 style rallies to support Big Brother’s ongoing and perpetual war. It’s inconceivable to me that anyone who says he or she loves Jesus could worship in such a house of horror.
Dana, well said!
Thank you for the explanation of the onset of ugly in America, Dana. That makes sense now. A cold and desolate box to be sure – reminds me of the tiny cheesebox in which my childhood parish relegated Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament when the opted to remove Him to a side ‘chapel’ with the ‘box’ affixed on the wall by the door.
God bless you Gratias and Ann Malley. We may be lone voices in the wilderness but we must not remain silent.
We are not alone, Dana, but those who would shut us up would dearly love us to believe this is so. That said, thank you so much for being real. It is precisely, in my view, the kind of testimony that will bring others to seek the Truth in all its fullness.
Lying, hiding, obfuscating, spinning, playing patty-cake nicey nice is all very well in theory, but in the long run such antics turn folks off as it is nothing more than what they get out in the world every day. Nauseating.
So keep on keeping it fresh!
I can’t help but think it would add to his misery to come here and read some of the comments of people here. These priests need and deserve our support and our prayers.
These priests do have our support and our prayers, Carol. If you truly believe, as you’ve stated, that the TLM is the superior form your forestalling speaking clearly about it could be perceived as dissembling.
That said, if a priest is unaware of the differences between the TLM and the NO, your assumption that these talks will ‘add’ to his misery presumes a misery that may very well only be in your mind. These fathers might be just fine. Just because you perceive a critical view of a form of mass as personal doesn’t mean everyone has such an emotional filter of life.
Here is St. Hedwig Parish’s official website. https://sainthedwigparish.org/
What, exactly, makes this a Church worth driving to?
Looks like a great church! Thank you CCD for bringing this to our attention. I look forward to visiting it sometime soon.
Agreed!
The Church represents the kind of decline in Faith that now characterizes the Catholic Church. Parishioners should demand that it be reconstructed to a Traditional form, and refuse to give a penney more in collections until this is done. No one will listen, unless you withhold cash, as that is pretty much all the pastor and bishop care about.
Oh, by the way, the word is “wreckovation” not “renovation”. Do they have kneelers? Hold hands during the “Our Father”? SIng Protestant hymns? Have lay people give homilies? Use altar girls? Use the slurping cup for communion? Insist that you stand for communion, instead of kneel, or at least genuflect? Time for the wrecking ball.
Why do wish people to sin? This is terrible advice.
I know someone who did this who was a big contributor and the priest told him to keep his money.
It is no sin to withhold payment when the fullness of Faith is withheld, mous. Quite the contrary. It could be considered a wise point of aiding others in the requisite correspondence with grace.
Terrible advice is to see that which is in decline and stand idly by expecting a miracle to rectify the situation instead of actively doing something about the matter in whatever way Providence allows.
It is not a payment.
How ignorant. And everything else you said is nonsense as well.
You know full well that it is completely legitimate to withhold funds (and to direct them to more Orthodox needs) when to provide them you become complicit in the evil that ultimately results. “Ann Malley” is completely correct.
I don’t believe it is legitimate not to tithe and you did not tell people to withhold funds and direct them to more Orthodox needs. You told them to extort their pastors.
How ignorant indeed, mous. You would continue to tithe, donate, contribute to that which destroys the faith. That is the blind leading the blind and no doubt why you deign nonsense anything that engages common sense, wisdom, and the use of ‘right’ judgment.
…it would be truthful to say that many of these ‘pastors’ are extorting the faithful, mous, by pretending to believe that which they do not as evidenced by their actions or lack thereof. Hiding behind the collar wins no brownie points for any man.
“The Church represents the kind of decline in Faith that now characterizes the Catholic Church.”
I think it’s wrong and sad that you take your frustrations out on this parish. This parish also represents the light of Christ in the world. I attend the TLM and understand why you love it, but it’s still wrong to take your frustrations about the fact that the new mass exists out on this parish.
The Church building itself is what is being referred to in the statement:
“The Church represents the kind of decline in Faith that now characterizes the Catholic Church.”
If you truly understood about the TLM, Carol, you would understand the statement that was made. I think it is wrong to continue attempting to make honest observations about a building equal to bashing parishioners and priests, Carol, or the Church as a whole. Not when you are intent on riding the fence while still stating the TLM is better.
The Church was first built in 1960 and “renovated” in 1990.
“Wreckovated” in the 1990, how very sad that so many churches were wreckovated after the disaster of Vatican II. If the council did not call for ripping out high altars, communion rails, kneelers, statues, vigil candle stands, removing the tabernacle from the center of the church, gutting Gregorian chant, Latin, stunning vestments, proper attire, silence, Mozart, Palastrina, Bach, when Mass attendence was at 78% prior to the council and the seminaries and convents were packed to the brim and now Mass attendence is at 10%. You Novus Ordonarians explain to all of us here who love the Mass of All Ages what in the council called for all of the above. Remember if we were right then we are right now! A council is not allowed to mess with the Holy Mass, the current service is a man made service concocted by six Protestant ministers and Hannibal Bugnini a proven Mason!
Vatican II did not call for removing those things. Please read the documents.
Why do you make divisions and factions in the Church which are said by the Holy Spirit in Holy Writ to be sinful.
You listen to gossip too much.
The Mass, just like the Scriptures is the work of the Holy Spirit.
The ‘form’ of the mass isn’t necessarily the Holy Spirit, mous. Free will plays a role, too. So while you are attempting to create unity, be careful not to attempt a false unity by negating reality or human agency. Even the Holy Spirit gives vent to the gift of free will – even that of clerics to misuse authority, position, and the general malaise and/or ignorance of the flock to accept that which isn’t precisely VII as the interpreted ‘spirit’ of VII.
God forces no one to go to Heaven, even prelates who pretend their shenanigans are approved by Rome.
So since VII didn’t specifically call for the removal of things, the ill will of those who removed things should be questioned or at the very least admitted. To do any less is dishonest and unproductive and does little to promote the credibility of the Catholic Church.
This is long but it explains that the people were not doing it out of ill will.
It also explains that this didn’t start with Vatican II.
https://blog.adw.org/2014/02/why-did-so-many-seek-to-revolutionize-the-church-in-the-60s-and-70s/
You post left me with a heavy heart. I hope you are just a contrary person who does not really mean what they say. You are very good at being provocative, offensive and belittling. But why would anyone want to be good at that?
Yes, mous, the movement to do what was done after VII was begun far earlier than the ’60s and ’70s. There were measures taken against those movements, too, movements that were pushed aside by the open door ambiguities inserted by way of the ‘pastoral’ language of VII documents.
As to being a contrary person, you are still under the illusion that posts here are personal. They are objective observations, mous, observations that must be answered and adequately addressed to maintain credibility of leadership. So what you deign provocative, offensive and belittling is precisely that because many individuals have been trained not to question and/or to look to the deposit of the Faith, but rather look to those who are in the position to mislead by not teaching the deposit of the Faith. And many of these Shepherds are doing just that – not necessarily out of intended bad will, but there must be a reason, mous. A motive.
And when an experiment of ‘removing things’ fails because the fruit never comes in or rots on the tree there needs to be a mea culpa, much like there is with the mismanaged attempts to shuffle around pedophile priests or ‘rehabilitate’ them proved a massive fail. Not acknowledging errors and/or mistakes does NOT increase trust in leadership, quite the opposite.
That is why doubling down on bad architecture, theology, and Protestanized experimentation is imprudent and ill advised.
OMG there is so much laughable in AM’s 6″57 A M post, I feel like I’m watching Saturday Night Live.
The idea that your posts are not personal but are ‘objective observations’ is among the biggest. Just ask Abeca Christian or any of the posters who come to her defense. Or for that matter, anyone who disagrees with you. You take them down for the count – in an objective way, of course. More importantly, you continue to make carefully implied accusations that the hierarchy acting as a whole (The Universal Body of Bishops along with the Pope) did not act with fidelity to the Deposit of the Faith when it met over several years and promulgated the documents we now memorialize as Vatican II.
Lastly, you confuse the “Deposit of Faith” with a person’s taste in architecture. That is probably the biggest laugh in your post. Except that your ongoing misunderstanding of the Faith is not a laughing matter.
Who needs SNL with you onboard, YFC? That said, I have no respect for your using Abeca Christian so handily. Poorly done, YFC, poorly done indeed. For that you should be ashamed.
Ann Malley, I pointed this out to you before but apparently you are to obtuse to understand it. When someone says XXX, you say XXX right back. Guess what. That is exactly the game that children play. “You are purple”. “Well you are purplier!”.
Well, you are very very purple.
Well, if you do not enjoy the engagement of name calling and the like perhaps you shouldn’t use Saturday Night Live as a segue to garner attention. The latter is sadly not limited to childish games as many adults such as yourself seem keen on not letting those ways go as they age.
And again, I am sorely ashamed of YOUR manipulation of Abeca Christian. Just a marble on the playground to you perhaps, but one whose sensibilities are easily ruffled and that, Sir, you have fully abused and you know it. But again, your display in addition to the weak response of ‘devout’ Catholics easily won by nefarious playacting is no good evangelization for the Catholic Church.
Ann Malley I want to address your ill assessments here. YFC is not courting me nor is he manipulating me! He too saw your uncharitable remarks against me in past posts and has admonished you and Catherine for them but since he is a homosexual, you are too PROUD to even accept them as being valid ones. He is not false in that assessment. It may hurt your pride that a homosexual had to point out the obviously about you and Catherine. Just like you correct his activism here, which we all do and rightly so, he too can reason and and speak out on injustices.
Ann Malley in charity and no disrespect: Remember you just gave a small lecture on sins of omission, not speaking up, and obviously he felt that you and Catherine have wronged another here and has spoken up. Don’t be double standard, what you preach also applies to your like minded group. Are you going to punish him for speaking up? You use his homosexuality against him and that is what this society does everyday, they condone it, they encourage it, but no one challenges him enough to give him the true respect of his human dignity, which is to ENCOURAGE him when he does reason in truth, so he can seek Christ’s truths and prayerfully we pray, that he too will no longer be a slave to his inclinations. I knew of a good man named James Hartline. We lost touch for several years but he left that “gay” lifestyle and actually became an activist to expose the lies of that lifestyle. He even went to protest the gay pride parades long ago. He even wrote a book. The homosexual community hated him for reasoning outside of their ideologies, so they vandalized his home, they taunted him, they gave him death threats but he still fought the good fight. Well he at least tried.
Abeca, in charity and all honesty, you do not see what is occurring.
This, however, “…He too saw your uncharitable remarks against ME in past posts,” ‘me’ being the operative word is your weak point. That is you are concerned with how you are treated yet you do not, save for you offering profuse and flowery may God bless you mores, seem concerned with your own bad behavior. Yes, Abeca, bad.
But again, if you cannot see it, that is your cross. And yet you seem intent on perpetuating whatever it is you mis-perceive by dangling lures of poor-abused me and ‘those ladies’. That is childish and transparent as is YFC’s coddling your ego. In other words, YFC is courting you, Abeca. And I still consider that reprehensible as it would seem your exuberant intentions are, as I said, being picked up like so many marbles on a playground. I was going to say his collecting you was shameful, but then ‘shameless’ popped into my head.
Holy Ghost!
Janek, the decline in attendance, great as it has been, is not the result of the items you mention. If it were, attendance would be down in Catholic churches and not in Protestant churches or synagogues. The Synod was, in fact, an attempt to stop the decline in membership in former Catholic countries of Europe where almost no one was going to church even back then. The decline is great, and some say it is going to get worse. If you are a parent and you were not raised in the church, you don’t know about how to raise your kids as Catholics, and they won’t know how to raise theirs. How many teens today know the Lord’s Prayer? About as many as can find the U.S. on a world map. Its not the fancy vestments and the incense, it is the culture that no longer sees the need for organized religion or even for a god. Change the culture and you might get some of them back in two or three generations.
Traditional practice has children as young as 2 and 3 knowing the Lord’s Prayer, Bob One, by daily recitation of the family rosary. A time honored devotion that was poo pooed in the modern era.
You might want to survey TLM communities to discover how many ‘teens’ know the Lord’s prayer and, actually, believe in the efficacy of praying it. So while you’re stabbing at the ‘fancy vestments and incense’ you might want to take a look at the results despite your personal bias.
Ann Malley, I suspect you are correct. The TLM parishes have made a point of being more like a parish of the 30-40&50’s. But, there is only a small percentage of folks that want to go to that form of the Mass.
Bob One… you may have the buildings, but we have the Faith….undo Vatican 2
…yes, Bob One, there is a small portion that ‘want’ to go to that mass, much like there are few children who ‘want’ to do what they are supposed to do without being guided to it.
That is precisely why the Church’s giving head to her children to do as they will in the Novus Ordo instead of as they should is a gross negligence and one very outstanding reason why ‘Catholics’ do not know even the Our Father. It is a shocking, grotesque failed experiment of letting the children run the house, Bob One, as if, growing tired of sugar treats, they will eventually settle down to a balanced diet of meat, veggies, dairy, and fiber. It’s a wonderful idea, but it does not take into account the reality of fallen human nature and the Church’s motherly role of instructing Her children.
We need to get back to that relationship, friend, all of us. It has nothing to do with the 30’s, 40’s, or 50’s. It’s called doing one’s duty of state – preachers preach, parents teach, children learn and when they fall, they are corrected and instructed to get back on track. Liberal to a fault is a saying for good reason…
Your portrayal is not even close to being true.
“There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”
― Fulton J. Sheen
One of the problems of the church today is that too many of its priests did exactly what Ann Malley said. Which is why she should learn to spell properly and not rely upon a spell checker.
…your portrayal hasn’t seen the light of reality or daylight, mous. So while you’re happy where you are, give thanks. Others are not so blessed as to have orthodox parishes.
So of course, those who have a parish that is not orthodox are supposed to run away and leave the sheep to the wolves, right?
Those are your words, mous, not mine. But those with little ones need to be wary as their duty is to protect their children. Again, pick your battles with those who are your enemies, mous, not those who are equally scandalized.
You are right Bob One, in that many teens do not know the Lord’s Prayer, the 10 Commandments, or the Precepts of the Church.
And why is this ? – –
LOUSY teaching on the part of Bishops, Priests and Nuns.
People can not like or dislike what they do not know and understand.
Everyone should be encouraging all literate persons to read the Bible and CCC at home.
It is a disgrace that Bishops do not encourage Catholics to read the two most important books in the Faith.
Yes! And they can’t appreciate what they don’t have and what they know nothing about. That doesn’t make them wrong or bad, it makes them in need of a loving explanation of the fullness of liturgy in the Church. The sad thing is that there are not enough people who understand TLM to explain it. Ann, Catherine, Janek, I fear you do more harm to the spread of the TLM than those who oppose it for theological reasons. The TLM group at my parish has outreach to the whole parish and to families in particular. The homily is said in two languages to cast a wide net. People don’t come to you and ask about what you love when you tell them they and their parish is deficient. Your parish bashing here is very destructive. I worry it is destructive to the Church Christ suffered and died for since these parishes are a part of that.
Carol, you presume that CCD is the only venue by which we communicate. That is an assumption you know and quite erroneous despite your firm belief. But you are entitled to your firm beliefs. And so too are others – despite your fears. Please, if you truly do wish to exercise outreach to all, give yourself the bandwidth to cast the larger net regarding methods as well. To include garnering those whom you believe might be helpful in spreading a love of the TLM.
A ‘loving’ explanation of the fullness of the liturgy is not the only method, Carol. Not everyone responds to tender, motherly loving. Many find it cloying and overwhelmingly annoying. This is not to say that you have not had a beneficial influence, but the stereotype mother who wants to love and hug and give to all must at some point be counterbalanced with a more masculine approach. Raw, speaking to the facts, sometimes seemingly harsh, but what is needed.
The Church has suffered precisely because in many arenas She has been given over to prelates who forget the strength and necessity of the truly masculine – firm, decisive, and setting expectations. They forget the value of straight speak, Carol. But such directness does have its place.
“The Church has suffered precisely because in many arenas She has been given over to prelates who forget the strength and necessity of the truly masculine – firm, decisive, and setting expectations. They forget the value of straight speak, Carol. But such directness does have its place.”
Thank you Ann Malley for these important words. One priest that we know admitted that his formation in the seminary was very poor. He felt cheated because there were so many things he was never taught. He worked on his own privately to compensate learn the necessary knowledge that had been denied. He remembered that when he was a seminarian that no one was allowed to speak up about any of the wrongdoings that were taking place right in front of his eyes. Those who were in charge indoctrinated a wimpy sloppy agape formation of don’t let anything bother you indoctrination. IOW remove the sometimes very necessary fiery masculinity that God intended male leaders to have. This priest had to learn this on his own and God helped him. We see after reading Michael Rose’s book why this wimpy representation of masculinity was preferred. This perverse mentality wanted to hear no evil; speak no evil and see no evil because there was plenty of it going on. If you spoke about wrongdoing you were either expelled or retrained to embrace the wimpy sloppy agape program until you were deemed suitable and under control.
2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear: but of power, and of love, and of sobriety. – Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible
What a tremendous grace that the priest of which you speak, Catherine, not only had the humility to understand and identify his own lacking formation, but had the wherewithal to devote precious time to correcting the problem.
That in itself is a testament to the value of proper formation and understanding. A busy priest, the very same that are lamented here as poor wooly bah lambs, taking time from a harried schedule of life to devote himself to learning and growing so as to better serve his flock. THAT is a Shepherd! THAT is a man!
May Our Lord continue to bless him and Our Lady protect him.
“May Our Lord continue to bless him and Our Lady protect him.”
“A busy priest, the very same that are lamented here as poor wooly bah lambs, taking the time from a harried schedule of life to devote himself to learning and growing so as to better serve his flock. THAT is a Shepherd! THAT is a man! ” = AMEN!
Your view, “Bob One”, about the Synod is brazenly wrong, and you know it. The Synod is a cynical attempt to manipulate already weak bishops and cardinals into accepting, under the guise of discipline, an entirely new set of sexual ethics. Now abortion is OK, fornication is OK, homosexual sex is OK, and adultery is OK (if accompanied by civil law window dressing).
Oh, and the Catholics in the Vatican are trembling that they will lose the Germans, who are trembling that their fat government checks are being reduced because the fornicators, adulterers, homosexual sexualists, no longer want to go to a Church that says that what they do is sinful; they refuse to pay the State tax. Advice: let them go.
Are you people going to let the Synod run over your Faith? Stand up. Stop giving to these free-loaders. Find a faithful charity and give your money to them, and let your bishop know.
Hogwash!
Disprove it….
Canisius, the teaching of the Catholic Church is that abortion, adultery, homosexual relations are intrinsic evils. They are never “OK”. Never justified. Never permitted.
Fornication-sex outside of a sacramental marriage-is a grave sin.
Mr. Christopher is simply lying about the Church, again.
NONE of that has ANYTHING to do with THIS parish!
Actually, this all has to do with what the Parish represents, “Carol”, by its destruction of Tradition, by its uber-Liberal “ministries”, by what is likely taught, and not taught, there.
And, of course, “Anonymous” can do nothing but give out emotionalist type arguments: “hogwash” is meaningless, except to those that have little to say.
The problem here is that a number of bloggers either have no understanding of the Catholic Faith — aside from a sort of NY Times or People Magazine version — or reject what they know in favor of modern political theme (e.g., why can’t a woman be priest, why can’t homosexuals “love” each other, etc.). People that insist on a fidelity to the Faith are termed: “bigots” and “unfair” and “mean” and all that.
Unfortunately, many of you have simply been badly taught in Catholic schools, catechism, and the like. You accept the evil that is done by many priests and bishops in the name of, what, charity or Vatican II or something. You need to educate yourselves, listen to people that know about the Faith. It is not about “feelings” or emotion; if you want that, without much in the way of demands, then go find an Episcopalian church. They will be happy to have you.
No kidding Anon, but you did not disprove anything St. Christopher stated…zero
Janek, you are correct that V II did not call for all those things you mentioned.
In fact Sacrosanctum Consilium one of the V II Documents clearly states that Norms C 36 1. the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites, 2. the mother tongue, will apply to readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants.
The problem was sin within the Church. Leaders like Joseph Bernardin who hid child abuse and moved sinful Priests from Parish to Parish got special indults (persmissions) for the things you discussed, and the Pope at that time was too weak to say “no”.
I venture to say that today with the use of the internet, some of Bernardin’s abuses would never have been approved.
And then the current abuses perpetrated by many people would not have happened either.
All that being said, it is up to the Laity to encourage the Bishops to revoke some of the indults.
It is up to the Laity to report abuses of GIRM to the Diocese Bishop.
It is up to the Laity to insist that Sacred Scripture and the CCC be studied and adhered to by all Diocese employees, Priests, Nuns, and Laity.
This is the same set of untruths that folks have been peddling for decades. It IS in the authority of the Council and Popes to make changes to the liturgy. Popes have done this since the very beginning. It is NOT a man made service, any more than the EF mass was man made, and it is not the product of protestant ministers.Finally, trash talking the Church is hardly good for it, especially when what you are saying is not even true.
Take up your assertions of trash talk with those like Mr. Kalb who admit to recognizing Protestant when they see it. Much like recognizing one who portrays himself as Catholic while peddling that which isn’t in the moral order.
I explained in an earlier post why Kalb’s positions are easily dispensed with: If two things derive their origin from the same place, they should look similar. If Kalb thinks that there is something deficient in the Catholic Mass because it looks like his protestant service, if protestants started celebrating the TLM, would he then have to look to yet another liturgy for validity in order to justify his theology of difference?
YFC, you did nothing but state that Mr. Kalb’s observations are easily dispensed with, but proved nothing. By your way of reasoning, we should all practice exactly the same with regard to religion despite the Incarnation because the entire human race sprouted from the ooze together.
That said, if the Catholic Church felt the necessity to scroll back the TLM to more greatly resemble a Protestant service because it was more precise to the original, then that in itself is Protestantization. It is, albeit unspoken, an aligning with that which is Protestant in expression and theology.
And that is precisely Mr. Kalb’s issue, friend. He was a protestant and wanted to become Catholic – not remain Protestant. That’s the subtlety you seem to miss or, perhaps, the very same you embrace because you do seem adamant to confuse Catholic with anything but the actual Faith.
Thank you Ann. Several years ago I asked my local priest if we couldn’t have a few more ‘bells and whistles” as I felt I hadn’t left my Presbyterian church…if anything, even less so, for at least my old protestant church was a beautiful neo-Gothic stone building with incredibly beautiful stained glass windows, stone floors and handcarved wooden choir stalls. You couldn’t enter that church without a feeling of having left the daily grind of the modern world and entered sanctuary. The local Catholic church has white walls and hardly any ornamentation. At least it is not hideous, for which I am grateful.
Thank God for you, Dana. A Protestant convert asking for that which is more Catholic. Who’d a thunk?!
Being grateful for that which is not hideous is also a gift. Little gifts do lead to bigger ones. Thank goodness :)
Dana, I hope and pray you phrased that question in a way that doesn’t come across as condescending as the way you have it phrased above. That poor priest.
Carol, pray that you begin to phrase your own posts in a manner that doesn’t condescend to basic human intellect and the capacity of priests – who are men and fully grown despite your fears – to handle it.
Treating people like they are 3 and 4 years old is not only off putting, but leaves them inclined to not grow past the thin skinned ways of the very young. The priests I know very much loathe being coddled and would react to your posts with a chuckle.
AM do you even know what you are talking about, or are you just talking for the sake of talking. The desires of the BIshops of the second Vatican Council were plainly stated, and yes, they were to eliminate repetitions that added nothing to the liturgy and rediscover those ancient elements that had gotten lost. Historical research between Trent and VII allowed such a rediscovery, which resulted in transformations in liturgies both Protestant and Catholic. If they became similar, it was because they both became more faithful to more ancient praxis, and where there were possibilities to show the ultimate unity of the small c catholic church through similar translations of things like the creed and the dialogues, yes, those things were undertaken for the greater good. If you have to feel “special”, and not part of an ever greater sense that we are one people of God together, then you might want to join a monastery. But instead, Kalb, and apparently you, think that whatever Protestants do, no matter how authentic to catholic tradition it is, we should do something different. If they ring a bell twice, we should ring it three times. If they introduce incense in the middle of their services, we should use it throughout ours. If they have 3 readings, we should have for. That is not Christianity. It is an arms race. Mutually Assured Destruction.
I try to ignore you and I try to let you be who you are and just say whatever is in the abundance of your heart.
But why? why do you have to be so mean and ugly to people?
Don’t disrespect Mr. Kalb, YFC. What you witness in his commentary is the ‘Sense of the Faithful’. That is why you do not comprehend it.
God bless you just the same.
These comments are getting intermixed…it’s difficult to keep score, Ann Malley. Your post about the morass of the feminine sure struck a chord…I was beginning to feel like Margo Channing in All About Eve. Thank you for some pure common sense. I could say more, but it’s all a bit pointless. I’ll be back next week…you’re a joy and a wonderful, faithful Catholic. To anyone else reading this, I would just add that while we’re all debating architecture and various Mass preferences, thousands of our brothers and sisters are suffering and dying for their faith, many cold and afraid. Our little discussions here can be enjoyable, but not to be taken so seriously that you think you can determne who’s going to hell, or who knows the most…whatever. Shame on those here who use duplitious sweetness to appear loving in trying to undermine those they don’t agree with. Chism indeed…what rot! I just pray that at the end of the day we’re all of one accord in praying for the lost, the forgotten, the suffering and the dying. I actually don’t care what Mass anyone prefers here, as long as you attend.
God bless, Dana, and enjoy a Blessed Christmas!
Being respectful is not treating them like they are 4. It’s treating them with the dignity and respect they deserve.
Carol, you wrote:
“…Dana, I hope and ‘pray’ you phrased that question in a way that doesn’t come across as condescending as the way you have it phrased above. That poor priest.”
Treating a priest with kid gloves as if he’s a porcelain doll is not to be encouraged either, Carol. We should be respectful to all, it is true, but we also need to be genuine and not hold back that which is an honest concern for the fear of improper phraseology. Priests are people too, and whereas they do have a high office, they often respect a person who expresses themselves clearly. If not, they might benefit from exposure as ‘Fathers’ are supposed to be strong, capable, and well able to handle their children.
This smothering mother protective attitude is very often that which is truly thought of as condescending.
Who made the Mass of Paul the VI up then Sir? Side by side Traditional Latin Mass and man made Novus Ordo no comparison the former a true sacrifice the later a Broadway production with the presider as the star! Bugnini is a proven fact please try to disprove that he was not a free mason.
Who made the Tridentine Mass up sir?
I know, I know! It was the leaders of the Church – men! Just like the NO.
The TLM was natural development, Carol, not a let’s sit down and hammer something out that’s completely different.
So while you’re stating that ‘you know’ you show with these kinds of posts that you do not know even though your sensibilities are effected by the fullness conveyed in the TLM.
Instincts can often be very clear. You might want to set back and ask yourself ‘why’ you prefer the TLM, critically and objectively. And then correlate the results back to the deficiencies you perceive in the NO rite. There are reasons for every change, Carol, and being honest about those reasons – even those that at the outset might be explained away by good intentions while leaving something less full or less than what was before – is perfectly acceptable. Especially when attempting to promote unity, true unity in fullness and fidelity to what the Church actually teaches.
Enjoy your Christmas!
No one said that a Pope can not make changes. But weak Popes give special INDULTS when they should not be given.
Bishops can not make changes to the liturgy without permission of the Vatican.
YFC, why don’t you check things out before you make a fool of yourself.
And before you make a fool of yourself again – Cardinal Arinze was the Prefect Emeritus of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments – and knows much more than you do.
Communion Kneeling and on the Tongue is Preferred Form – Cardinal Arinze & Redemptionis Sacramentum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap1KL2D5ae4
Kneeling, Kneelers, Altar Rails, and Cardinal Arinze
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc0g3UMRtMM
What about Altar Girls? … Cardinal Arinze
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWByiwHE4MY
Cardinal Arinze on liturgical dancing
Talking about fools. Even a fool could see that I never mentioned kneelers, tongues, altar girls, or dancing.
I never called you a fool, yet you call me one. Most unfortunate that you cannot have a civil talk about the disaster of Vatican II and the ghastly mess of the Novus Ordo. But that is what liberals and lefty modernists resort to when they cannot defend their point of view.
Seth called YFC twice and he returned the name to Seth because Seth made up a whole lot of issues nobody was talking about. Janek if you want a more civil discourse address Seth.
Seth is correct.
I suggest YFC you read the V II Documents that are very clear that Latin is supposed to be used for parts of the Mass.
YFC, you pretend to know so much but are very ignorant.
Bernardin and cronies got the indults (not normal) permissions from the Vatican.
Seth, I have read them. The Council gave the Pope guidelines to follow, not rules. Complying with the Council, Blessed Pau VI gave us GIRM. Just as Trent gave guidelines to the Pope who promulgated TLM. Even if Latin is retained in certain parts of the mass, you would still complain that it is a man made mass. As though Latin itself was not man made or that Jesus used latin in the Last Supper.
Don’t lie about me. You don’t know about my concerns.
My concerns are that those adopted Rubrics of the Mass (adopted by the Vatican and the Pope) be followed.
V II docs are very clear in the Vatican documents that no Priests or Bishops have the authority to make changes on their own (without Vatican approval);
and that the Laity must adhere to the Rubrics for their part as well.
For the Laity this means – no holding hands, no hokey pokey – raising arms during the Lord’s prayer, no giving the sign of peace to those who are not nearest to you, etc.
All abuses should be reported to the Diocese Bishop.
Please advise the Document and paragraph number of any of the V II documents where it states: these are “ONLY GUIDELINES” for the Pope.
Seth, I don’t believe I have lied about you. If there is any inaccuracy in what I have written it is not a lie. So please, calm down with the wild accusations.
However, here is what you wrote above: “The problem was sin within the Church. Leaders like Joseph Bernardin who hid child abuse and moved sinful Priests from Parish to Parish got special indults (persmissions) for the things you discussed, and the Pope at that time was too weak to say “no”.
Here is what you just wrote: “My concerns are that those adopted Rubrics of the Mass (adopted by the Vatican and the Pope) be followed.”
SO which is it, in one post you are upset with the Pope for, as you claim, being too weak to say no, but on the other post you want those rubrics to be followed. Which is it? If you think indults required people to do things you find distasteful, can you please be specific about what those indults were there and why they were not part of the Pope’s permission to grant as part of his role to oversee the sacramental life of the Church?
Ted, YFC is a counterfeiter he and his ilk are creating a false church that caters to their base whims and desires, abortion, gay sex, contraception. He claims to be sitting next to us in the pews on Sunday, but he isn’t he is a false Catholic creating a false Church, long predicted in Catholic prophecy.
God bless you, Canisius, for saying it like it is.
Ann, we both know this has been going around for a very long time…the enemy is within the gates,,,,
Canisius, I am none of the above and I find the incessant Catholic Church bashing in this column heartbreaking. Enemy within the gates is right. Such a trick of the devil to take what is so beautiful about the TLM and use it to divide the very Church that Christ suffered and died for.
Carol God bless you for seeing the truth about how uncharitable some people are here. They convey a tone of schism. God bless you for discerning well. Both the OF and EF mass when done in accordance are valid. Arguing about which one is better is wrong. Our beloved Lord is there in both. I read all your comments and telling from these you love the Lord. You are full of charity and they do not welcome it. I encourage you to speak always the truth.
You have been misled into believing that it is the beauty of the TLM or speaking the truth of that as divisive, Carol. Too much sentiment can spoil the broth, you know. And Catholics are to be soldiers of Christ. We are the Church Militant. That is why this perpetuation of feelings, sensibilities, and oh-the-pain needs to take a back seat at some point.
So there is a trick of the Devil to be sure. That is inserting and elevating the lesser so as to hamstring those who would offer the greater or even speak of it. I pray God to give us some true Saints to lead us out of this morass of the feminine.
I am not bashing the Church Carol, I am bashing heretics and counterfeiters. I never once claimed the NO was invalid I just do not like it, just like the tolerant liberals who detest the TLM. As for enemies, I will name some, Bishops Gumbleton, Weakland, Mahonay, Law, the Deceased Bernandin, Kasper, Forte, the entire LCWR, gay positive priests and parishes, the kind that will give communion to abortion supporters, but refuse it to those who kneel to receive Our Blessed Lord. I do not think this is heart breaking I think its long time coming.
Canisius,
I comes across to me that the bashing of this parish and every other parish profiled here is bashing of the Catholic Church. These parishes are part of the Church that Christ suffered and died for – they are run by priests who work hard and people who love them. There may be frustrations about the Church as a whole or individual bishops and I totally get that. But the people you name, Weakland, Mahoney, Bernadin, Law etc. have nothing to do with this parish. (And the fact remains our common enemy is the devil, not the NO mass!) The various complains about the fact that the NO mass exists and frustrations about Vatican 2 as a comment about a profile this parish feel out of line and come across as in very poor taste. I love the TLM but I can’t put any form of the mass above Christ and his Church. My personal preference is for the TLM but I can’t help but wonder if the traditionalists I know do more damage to the cause of the TLM with their griping about the NO mass and the parishes people attend than those who oppose it for theological reasons. I don’t mean this in a snarky way, it is a very genuine and sincere concern.
Thank you Abeca Christian. I feel like I am a person with a foot in each pond. I fear the devil is very pleased with this division and desire to help each side see the value (or legitimacy?) in the other. We all serve the God of miracles, right?
Your welcome Carol. You speak very charitable and it is very much appreciated.
Merry Christmas.
At least I sit in the pew next to you, Ann Malley sits in an entirely different Church altogether!
Not very ecumenical of you, YFC, or welcoming. And yet your attempt to court Abeca Christian is predatory in the extreme. Attempting to build bridges with those inside the Church while overtly working to overthrow Her is as shameful as it is obvious.
But God bless you this Christmas just the same. Abeca and Carol and Catherine and St. Chris and Janek and Dana and everyone :)
YFC you have never sit next to me, bet on it. Carol once again I have never once considered the NO, invalid I just do not like it, IT has been the source of division and the liberal crowd that put into place
I find the faithlessness of the people who post here totally repugnant.
I hope you can come to True Faith.
Honestly, you sound exactly like atheists with nothing better to do than criticize the Catholic Church.
Either you are a believer or you are not. And so many here are not. But they try to play the game and say the words, but a believer can tell it’s phony.. By their fruits, their words, we know them.
Anonymous, are you implying that in your personal view, the majority of people who post here do not know their Faith and/or are like athiests ?
I am saying that they do not practice the Faith the way it is traditionally practiced which includes avoiding sins of the tongue. I do not think their love for God and neighbor is very apparent.
Either you accept the whole entire Catholic Faith or you are a decayed tree. I understand that not everyone has been Catholic their entire lives and that their formation may have been limited to an RCIA class that did not have time to cover everything.
And I know perfection is not given in this world and comboxes bring out the worst in people. I am not an exception to this, either.
I feel like many people here are insolent and irreligious and disrespectful of Catholics and the Catholic Faith.
This used to be a faithful Catholic website but it is turning into the National Catholic Reporter in the comment section (not the articles) with people who pick and choose what they want to believe and obey and who they condescend to love.
For a great resource, archive.com has online an exhaustive catechism called The Catechism Explained. People think the Catechism of the Catholic Church has everything in it. It is a summary of the Faith. It is not exhaustive. The catechism above is from before Vatican II and contains a lot of explanations that people either have not learned or want to ignore.
“I am saying that they do not practice the Faith the way it is traditionally practiced which includes avoiding sins of the tongue. I do not think their love for God and neighbor is very apparent.”
Agreed.
Carol God bless you for seeing the truth about how uncharitable some people are here. They convey a tone of schism. God bless you for discerning well. Both the OF and EF mass when done in accordance are valid. Arguing about which one is better is wrong. Our beloved Lord is there in both. I read all your comments and telling from these you love the Lord. You are full of charity and they do not welcome it. I encourage you to speak always the truth.
Many convey a tone of rigid blindness, casting stones at those they prefer to calumniate with the ‘tone’ of schism while at the same time doing the very same by pointing out the wonderful work at CMTV. Our Beloved Lord sees bias very clearly, especially when defense is meted out more for defense of oneself and perceived slights and discourtesy rather than of Him or His Church.
We all have our filters in life, Abeca. And if you truly believe that folks are merely debating here about what form is better for no solid reason then you are simply not understanding what people are saying. For whereas the tone of schism might be your biggest fear regarding the building up of the Church, the tone of hypocrisy and credibility is the concern of others – and rightly so.
Just because you do not understand as much does not mean it does not exist, much like the brand of holiness you withdraw from those who have crossed you. That said, Carol discerned that the TLM is superior to the OF just a few posts up. And nobody was discussing the validity of either rite. I encourage you to not intimate falsehoods about what others are posting.
The parents and the victims who called out for help when they exposed the evil sex abuse taking place were told to stop gossiping. They were told to read the CCC Church about calumy but little did many of the parents and victims know that many of these wolves in sheep’s clothing were protecting like-minded wolves. Some were even the molesters themselves and now all of the sudden they “got religion”. Yes, for the first time in over forty or fifty years they all of the sudden started to quote the CCC that they had been ignoring and mocking for years. This type of selective use of the CCC has been a favorite silencing ax or bludgeoning tool for years.
It is quite predictable.
Anonymous is hiding for a specific reason. Anonymous used his/her keyboard as a speaking tongue to cleverly undermine the reputation of a good faithful priest who denied giving Holy Communion to a lesbian activist. Anonymous also tried to lie about the good reputation of a priest in Texas who simply stood up for Church teaching regarding homosexuality. Anonymous has run interference for every YFC-like homosexual activist poster on this faithful Catholic website. Anonymous also defended the Drag Queen scandal at USD and the Stop Kiss Lesbian play, as well as the openly gay clergy who promoted the play. Those are sins of omission and sins of the tongue. And now anonymous has innocent Carol supporting anonymous’s tongue that attempted to undermine both Father Guarnizo and Father Michael Rodriguez. Now Carol might ask what that has to to with this parish. The interior wreckovation of St. Hedwig’s church represents the continuing and ongoing wreck ovations across the United States that are taking place whether it be buildings or Church teachings. Whoever suggested that this is a church worth driving to was perhaps a bit remiss in thinking that the premeditated deliberate denigrating of this particular interior would not be discussed on CCD. No one is blaming this good pastor or his beautiful flock. This very ugly building and cold and ugly interior truly ties in with the Protestant looking interior of the Protestant looking Christ Cathedral. If our faithful priests are aware of the schemes and nonsense behind the scenes then they can be more fully prepared to teach the Fullness of the Truth.
God bless those parents who actually paid heed to what their children told them occurred. I knew victims who didn’t dare tell their folks because the acts were so vile the now-grown children *knew* they wouldn’t be believed. Why? Because their folks were so enamored of thinking that priests are not human beings and liable to temptation and sin much like the rest of us.
This, sadly, is still the attitude which leaves priests without any *REAL* support from the laity to do a job that, in truth, is very demanding.
God bless you for posting, Catherine. Have an excellent Christmas!
Ann Malley,
Thank you and the same goes to you. Have a beautiful Christmas and God bless you for posting on CCD!
“… avoiding sins of the tongue.”
There are also sins of omission, friend. Look to it.
There are sins of omission. To what do you refer?
…not speaking out for fear of offending. As the saying goes, “Faint heart never won fair lady,” and in regards to the ongoing crisis in the Church and what constitutes true division, gagging others by intimating ill will or schism could very well be construed as sinful, mous. Silence implies consent.
So whereas the ‘sins of the tongue’ slant is used to put fear into souls who might otherwise speak up, you may well fear not speaking, too. For if you see, hear, and understand, you also have a duty as a confirmed (I’m assuming here) Catholic.
ladies you can preach all you want, you can get off the subject at hand so you can avoid looking at your own sins that you often commit here. You both want to accuse people of silence, do you know how many here are tired of beating up and demonizing people like you often do? We don’t want to please you two ladies, you both work against the real mission of the church. Any good fight fought was done in charity not in the way you two lead here. You are very self righteous and you always have to put in the last word. Sometimes people of good will can get caught up in your sins. You are not about saving souls, you are here for your own agendas. It is very clear, and I know that many others see it.
Remember folks you have to think and act, and do as Catherine and Ann Malley want you to be or do. Anything outside of their approval on how to reach out to sinners is not acceptable because Catherine will just cut and past from past comments and post her own new interpretation. When those comments where made, she was fine and dandy with them, she loved them and was even edifying, because back then she actually seemed like a person who really cared about saving souls but now its about Catherine being right and she flip flopped now she shows that back then, my comments where satisfactory to her, now they are not.
If only these two ladies practiced what they preached, we would be better off. We know that the church has its issues but it has always been this way from its beginning, because men are not perfect! And yes many of US are praying and taking action! We don’t need to prove anything to them. Its Jesus whom we are to give ourselves to.
Like Mother Theresa once stated that we have a perfect church but the second humans run it, it is no longer perfect. Something of that nature. Its more productive to work towards the mission of the church then bicker all day here day in and day out. Its getting old. We lost excellent debaters who really worked towards the mission of the church, like Rick Delano, Ski ven, JLS etc…..now this website is like a circus because of the instigators. Its no longer debating, its now bearing false witness and character assassination. You will get punished for posting reflections in hopes to motivate or inspire. They will accuse you of pride, lying or self glory. How is their behavior coming from a good Catholic?
A lot of it has to do with their bad will to not be in full communion. Not surprised that they go after anyone who is really in full communion, take for instance Carol is charitable and they are already rude to her. She attends the TLM and so do I? If you ask me, these ladies are here to promote their own personal agendas. Who else would turn good articles into circus? How about the article where some traditional sweet holy nuns converted and decided to be in full communion with Rome…they sure turned it into an ugly thread. I know I was caught up in their bad behavior. With much prayer and devotions, I am grateful to Jesus that I recognize what was happening, went to confession and try to not get into it with them.
I understand we should admonish the sinner and we do but some take it to another level like these ladies and they lack to see their own bad will part in all this. Now that I said my peace, God bless you and know that I pray for you. I pray you well and blessings, God love you more! I mean it. I have devoted daily prayer time for you and everyone here. Pray for me too if your hearts lead you. God bless you. Thank you for your time. I am grateful for this opportunity. See you next year, if God permits, MAY HIS WILL BE DONE, not ours!
“…A lot of it has to do with their bad will to not be in full communion.”
Abeca, you are mind reading about the supposed ‘bad will’ of others regarding communion with the Church. You need to stop assuming you can read people’s consciences and read what they write… to include your own posts.
God bless.
Super-sized flip flop.
Taken from CCD’s ‘Finishing schools for excommunication’
Abeca Christian says:
July 20, 2013 at 2:28 pm
“As I recall when these sort of scandals were reported, the lay faithful that took action have also helped with stopping some of the heretical things that are happening and that could of scandalized more souls. I hate readers who complain about the faithful here who do actually find this offensive and scandalous, they are the ones who probably do not take any action and do not understand the seriousness that these scandals cause.”
We realize that the current pastor did not have any say in the wreckovation of this church building. It is important to speak up against the church interiors and the altars that have been sacked by those who despise Church teaching and many are still being sacked into looking like Protestant church buildings.
The interior destruction of our Catholic churches is a great scandal. It is SO great a scandal that Our Lady of Akita, Japan addressed these sackings of churches and altars. .
The Church Approved message Our Lady of Akita
“The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see Cardinals opposing Cardinals, Bishops against other Bishops. The priests who venerate Me will be scorned and opposed by their confreres (other priests). *Churches and altars will be sacked.* The Church will be full of those who accept compromises.
There is nothing new under the sun.
O, beware, my lord, of jealousy;
It is the green-ey’d monster, which doth mock
I would!
I went to the parish web site. This sounds like a very vibrant parish. The current bulletin has the annual financial report and ministry report. This is a very active parish, with a high degree of participation by the members. Most people would find this a very engaging Catholic Community. For those who don’t like the architecture (even if they haven’t visited the building) you might want to ask the thousands of people who attend every week why they like it and find it a good place to worship and praise God.
It’s all very positive and encouraging to many people!
I agree Bob One and Carol. God bless them and may they remain faithful to Christ and His mission. With all Catholic parishes we must keep them all in our prayers. Remember that both the EF and the OF mass are holy when done in accordance with the GIRM.
…alas it is the inherent freedom allowed wherein escape from the GIRM is justified under that which is ‘pastoral’ that is the issue, Abeca. And precisely why there is a decided benefit to returning to that rite which is not as open to abuse by way of incessant personal interpretation/experimentation.
Much like a diet that is well balanced by design would be preferable for long term health when compared to a diet that allows for all manner of substitution that can and does devolve into brownies for dinner, cupcakes for lunch, Kool-aid for snack time and maybe a Cup o’Noodles just to quell the gnawing in one’s stomach.
When the experiment is over, those who had the balanced diet will usually prove to have the better overall health and the strength necessary to do their duty. That is why this nonsense about ‘it is just ‘my’ preference’ when advocating that one does indeed hold the balanced diet to be preferable smacks of such nonsense. For there are solid reasons to favor the balanced diet – not just whims of taste.
Your analogy is faulty.
Holy Mass in any form is not a “meal” with no nutrition.
It is the sacrifice of Calvary renewed.
This borders on blasphemy.
So Cup o’Noodles is the latest looney-tunes theology to justify leaving the Catholic Church?
Taken from California Catholic Daily’s Awesome, poetic, reverent
Posted Friday, December 02, 2011 4:18 PM By Catherine
“We’ve had enough exhortations to be silent. Cry out with a hundred thousand tongues, I see the world is rotten because of silence.”…….St. Catherine of Siena
Posted Friday, December 02, 2011 5:52 PM By Abeca Christian
Catherine, way to go on that quote from Saint Catherine of Siena!
FLIP FLOP FLIP FLOP …. Not a good sign!
No Cup o’Noodles theology is your excuse for ‘good enough’ when offering the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and stopping up your ears to abuse. Shame on both you mice. I pray God to give us holy priests, but with a laity so ill informed and trained toward ignorance it will be a long shot without the active hand of God working a miracle.
So while you turn men to mush, God will raise saints from rocks. But you’d likely take issue with Him, too.
Such foolishness.
Catherine is hilarious. Shes so bitter that i am no longer supporting her bad behavior. Lets address her ego. Lets see when i have free time to cut and paste compliments she made about me in the past. Talk about flip flop Catherine. No instead i will offer up another decade of the rosary for her. And thank you for that beautiful quote from that beautiful saint. Look up what she says about mocking and taking out of context. About making a good confession too. Merry Christmas may the nativity and birthday of our beloved Jesus make us better Christians.
Catherine in your own mind. But my security is in Jesus and He is the one I serve. I am a sinner and thank you for making that known, I don’t want anyone to think better of me, but remember who paid a high price for our sins, Jesus! We belong to Him. I owe everything I have to Him and only Him. So thank you for your time to reply to me. Its all out there for everyone to see. I hope that they keep their focus on Jesus, for He is the one who will save us. Pray the rosary with me Catherine. You can be certain that you are in my intentions. A decade for you. Jmj
Ann Malley I am sorry that they offended you with that cup of noodles stuff. You are right, that was uncalled for.
Just so you know Catholic Answers has or has had a brochure regarding what are abuses and how to identify them. Even Mother Angelica on EWTN went over some of her own and what we should do or take action. I appreciate your concern and yes we are always on the look out on any abuses that is why we encourage to look over the GIRM.
You should be ashamed for trash talking The Mass the way you do Ann Malley.
Abeca, I do not need to visit EWTN to understand how to recognize an abuse of the mass. I’ve lived them and that is why I am wary. Your unfair admonishment of Catherine also makes me wary, Abeca, for your approach is not one I trust if only because of inconsistency.
Catherine is consistent in her values and approach which, in itself, offers one a cohesive understanding of the Faith and motivations, etc. That is not to negate your intentions, but the execution of apologetics is very important.
Ann Malley its fine. Your approach hasn’t been perfect either dear. I’ve been as charitable as possible. We are human aren’t we? Imperfect and capable of making mistakes. I would have to agree to disagree with you respectably. Thanks for your time.
” I don’t want anyone to think better of me,” = That is why our new unrecognizable poster told the entire blogosphere … “I SMELLED the roses “FIRST”.
Do you wish to rise? Begin by descending.. You plan a tower that will pierce the clouds? Lay first the foundation of humility.
Saint Augustine
Do you wish to be great? Then begin by being. Do you desire to construct a vast and lofty fabric? Think first about the foundations of humility. The higher your structure is to be, the deeper must be its foundation.
Saint Augustine
Humility is the foundation of all the other virtues hence, in the soul in which this virtue does not exist there cannot be any other virtue except in mere appearance.
Saint Augustine
Humility,
Since you cannot do good to all, you are to pay special attention to those who, by the accidents of time, or place, or circumstances, are brought into closer connection with you.
Saint Augustine
What I needed most was to love and to be loved, eager to be caught. Happily I wrapped those painful bonds around me; and sure enough, I would be lashed with the red-hot pokers or jealousy, by suspicions and fear, by burst of anger and quarrels.
Saint Augustine
“It was pride that changed angels into devils; it is humility that makes men as angels.”
Saint Augustine
Catherine you made your point about a dozen, or two, or three by now, Point being that Abeca smelled the Roses first, and therefore by pointing it out to us she is not as humble as she might be. Where is the confessional you inhabit so that she might come and confess and be absolved? Or is your role in life to pick at her like an Edgar Allen Poe horror story? What was the name of that one? Quoth the raven, “Abecamore!”
Abeca loves to promote Abecamore, YFC, otherwise she wouldn’t post exhaustive laments over how poorly she thinks ‘she’ is being treated while allowing folks like you to ravage the Church.
Treating wolves in sheep’s clothing like innocent wolves who just don’t understand what they are about is disgusting. But it plays well for the wolf who knows precisely what he is about and finds such sappy sheep to be a great aid in receiving myriad introductions to the rest of the flock.
No scent of roses can cover that smell. And yet many are misled by these perceived ‘signs’ into believing their foolish behavior is endorsed from above. Even if said people have the best of intentions.
Merry Christmas :)
The Catholic Mass is celebrated in many ways, and no guy or gal with an iPad can dictate what’s allowed and not.
Go to Africa and attend Mass at a Catholic Church there – or India, with the Syro-Malabar Catholics (get ready for lots of singing and incense).
Go to Lebanon and celebrate with the Maronite Catholics, or Star of the Sea on Geary Blvd. here in San Francisco, where the Tridentine Mass is offered. Or attend St. Paul of the Shipwreck in Hunter’s Point (S.F.), where the Black Catholics worship for a couple of hours, in no hurry to get home and plop down on the couch.
The loony idea that all Catholics must worship the Lord in ONE way is divisive, and inaccurate. We stretch to every corner of the planet and have a plethora of Rites, customs, and cultures.
When a Priest gets assigned to a Parish, he does not best he can with what he has been given.
The architecture of a Parish is approved by the then Diocese Bishop at the time of construction.
https://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/in-catholic-church-architecture-tradition-shouldnt-be-ignored/
In one of his posts above, Anonymous posted false information.
It is probably because he has a tendency to quote or link blog sites rather than Official Church documentation.
Anonymous stated: QUOTE: ” The Catechism Explained. People think the Catechism of the Catholic Church has everything in it. It is a summary of the Faith. It is not exhaustive. The catechism above is from before Vatican II and contains a lot of explanations that people either have not learned or want to ignore.” UNQUOTE.
The book he recommended “Catechism Explained” was published in Dec 1993, and written by a Priest and lay person.
The accurate edition of the “Catechism of the Catholic Church” was not published promulgated by Pope JP II until Aug. 15, 1997, so it was impossible to compare the two in the “Catechism Explained”.
Here is the authoritative documentation, please note the signature and date at bottom.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/aposletr.htm
In addition, Anonymous calls Pope John Paul II a liar who stated the CCC is “being presented as a FULL, COMPLETE exposition of Catholic doctrine”.
(Quotes below.)
Lastly, the CCC is easy to understand for any literate person over age 14. It needs no additional explanations.
” ….the CATECHISM has raised throughout the world, even among non-Christians,
and confirms its purpose of being presented as a full, complete exposition of Catholic doctrine,
enabling everyone to know what the Church professes, celebrates, lives, and prays in her daily life.” – Pope John Paul II
“….. let us ask ourselves if we have actually taken a few steps to get to know Christ and the truths of faith more, by reading and meditating on the Scriptures, studying the Catechism, steadily approaching the Sacraments.” – Pope Francis , May 15, 2013.
“In its very structure, the Catechism of the Catholic Church follows the development of the faith right up to the great themes of daily life. On page after page, we find that what is presented here is no theory, but an encounter with a Person who lives within the Church.” Pope Benedict XVI (Porta Fidei, Motu Proprio Data, starting with paragraph #11.)
For those who may be interested, in the history of the Church there have only been 2 Universal Catechisms of the entire world-wide Church approved by the Pope / Magisterium.
(The other catechisms have been local only and published by various Bishops’ Conferences, or Bishops, or Priests, Lay people, etc.)
The only two OFFICIAL Catechisms of the Church are:
The “CATECHISM of the COUNCIL of TRENT” (aka Roman Catechism) of
1566 AD.
and
the “CATECHISM of the CATHOLIC CHURCH” (aka CCC) of 1997.
For more info on the CCC, go to: “What Catholics REALLY Believe SOURCE”.
https://whatcatholicsreallybelieve.com/
Have you read the CCC?
Have you compared it to the Catechism of Trent?
As for the Catechism Explained I was referring to this one:
https://archive.org/details/catechismexplain00spiruoft
It is from the late 1800’s and early 1900’s.
Saying that the CCC it is not exhaustive does not contradict Pope John Paul II abd his saying that it is full and complete. And it certainly does not call him a liar. Don’t be so quick to accuse and judge. I am not criticizing the Catechism.
There is a difference between relaying the information in the catechism and explaining it.
My concern in my post was for those who do not accept the Catechism. They claim to be in conformity with the Catholic Church before Vatican II but they are not and they need to read the Catechism of Trent and the Catechism Explained so that they can be faithful Catholics.
Anonymous, ALL Catholics must accept the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, second edition” or they are heretics and schismatics.
You can not excuse them, Anonymous. Or tell them if they only read part of the Faith that, that is enough.
Since you are posting, we all assume that you are writing to the literate.
The CCC is easy to understand. I know many Protestants and Catholic teens who understand what they have read perfectly.
When the CCC is quoted, no one ever says – “I don’t understand it”.
You can check this out via many many posts on this web site.
And the CCC is of the Apostolic Constitution – the Deposit of Faith.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm
You, Anonymous said the CCC does NOTt contain the Doctrine of the Faith in entirety. And you chastised those who said it does.
You lied or think you know more than our Popes. Read your posts and admit when you are wrong.
Telling someone to read a separate book explaining the Catechism of the Council of Trent instead of the Catechism of the Council of Trent of 1566 AD is ridiculous. And certainly telling people who have read neither not to read the CCC is sinful.
“ The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved … and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority,
is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine” – CCC page 5.
Anonymous, of course I have read the CCC, and I have read and own the Catechism of the Council of Trent of 1566 AD as well.
That has nothing to do with your stating: QUOTE: ” …. an exhaustive catechism called The Catechism Explained. People think the Catechism of the Catholic Church has everything in it. It is a summary of the Faith. It is not exhaustive. The catechism above is from before Vatican II and contains a lot of explanations that people either have not learned or want to ignore. ” UNQUOTE.
You are dishonest, or a heretic and schismatic.
The Doctrine of the Faith along with the explanation is contained in the CCC.
It is easy to understand and needs no further explanation.
People should follow our Popes, not you and your misinformation.
If you are one of the few do not understand something in the CCC, or believe that something is missing – ASK – rather than make incorrect statements.
ASK any many posters can help you.
Anonymous, you said: ” My concern in my post was for those who do not accept the Catechism.” This is false, since in your earlier post you chastised those who said it contains the Doctrine of the Faith in full (complete) – which it does.
If the people you say you are concerned about are Catholics who do not accept the CCC,, they are heretics and schismatics. (CCC 2089).
You should not encourage heretics or schismatics by telling them to read some other book.
The CCC is a “COMPLETE” exposition of CATHOLIC DOCTRINE.
Our Popes know more than you do, so stop giving out bad information.
The Bible and CCC are all that is necessary to know the Faith. Literate persons over age 15 can easily understand the CCC.
So what is your real goal ?
The Catechism of the Council of Trent of 1566 AD. is not as complete as the Catechism of the Catholic Church, second edition regarding things that relate to today – such as surrogate mothers, artificial insemination, communism, marxism, etc.
However, the CCC contains the doctrine in the CCofT.
the CCof T (pg 9) was written primarily for Priests to pass on to others since the literacy rate was not as high in the mid 1500’s as it is today.
The CCC was written for all of us, including non-Catholics who want to know what Catholics believe. – per Pope JP II. (pg xvi).
I would like to encourage everyone age 15 and over to read the CCC in entirety.
Sacred Scripture and the CCC are great gifts from the Magisterium.
For anyone to try to discourage people or withhold the CCC from literate persons commits a grave sin.
Be responsible for what you post.
If you look at the table of contents of both, you will see a similar layout.