Bishops of the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) have been authorized by Pope Francis to ordain new priests without the approval of the local diocesan bishop, according to Bishop Bernard Fellay, the superior of the traditionalist group.
“Last year, I received a letter from Rome, telling me you can freely ordain your priests without the permission of the local ordinary,” Bishop Fellay reported. He said that the move indicated that although the status of the SSPX remains irregular, “the ordination is recognized by the Church not just as valid but in order.”
The SSPX has been involved in talks with the Vatican, aimed at regularizing the status of the group, and informed sources have indicated that an agreement is close to establish the SSPX as a personal prelature. Pope Francis has already said that SSPX priests have the authority to hear sacramental confessions and preside at weddings that will be recognized by the Catholic Church. Bishop Fellay remarked that the permission to ordain bishops is “one more step in his acceptance that we are… ‘normal Catholics.’“
Full story at Catholic Culture.
Comments below do not necessarily represent the opinions or beliefs of California Catholic Daily. California Catholic Daily is faithful to the magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church.
Thank God. Now the Holy Father should suppress the Jesuits and prohibit them from ordaining any new priests, for the good of the Church. Let the SSPX flourish!
Pope Francis is doing what Supreme Bridge Builders are supposed to do. He’s building bridges. Pontiffs should be less about pontificating and more about pontifying.
Pontifying? I’ve never heard the term. I like it. :)
Thanks, Steve.
Steve, the french word for bridge is pont.
Great news! I would love to attend their next ordination Mass, at their new seminary in Virginia, next June!
Dear God let this be true, the S.S.P.X F.S.S.P. and Institute of Christ the King will be Holy Mother Churches salvation!!
The Society of St. Pius X can hear confessions, preside at weddings and now, ordain priests. So, all they need to make it official is Pope Francis’ secret decoder ring. Welcome back Marcel Lefebvre.
This article is confusing. Paragraph one refers to ordaining priests. Paragraph three refers to ordaining Bishops. Does this mean there could be validly ordained BISHOPS whom the Vatican has not approved?
Curiouser and curiouser.
No individual Bishop can be ordained without consultation from Rome, so the answer is uncahnged. They cannot just ordain anybody they please. But the recognition of priestly ordinations and offer of validity of marriages and confessions is a significant step, and (IMHO) indicates that Rome will likely approve their episcopal ordinations as well. Time will tell. Prayers all around.
Thanks be to God!
I always found it curious that the Bishop in my diocese can promote homosexuality, can publicly state that the bible is not a historical document, can participate in liturgical functions in heretical churches (and on and on) and be in good standing with Rome yet SSPX Priests and Bishops who refuse to compromise are chastised.
Bishop McGrath is quite an embarrassment, isn’t he?
I agree! Let’s see if the SSPX chapel in Los Gatos, and their school and chapel in San Jose, start to grow even more— with perhaps more new chapels opening soon!! If they are fully approved by Rome, I want to join their Third Order! They also used to have a pre-Vatican II group of the Legion of Mary! Surely Abp. Lefebvre will oneday turn out to be a kind of martyred Saint, martyred by the ungodly, unfaithful secularists, of the era of modernism and Vatican II!! In every era, the Christian must leave behind the godless, corrupt secular world, and follow Christ’s call, daily, faithfully!
I do not know if you die in mortal sin that you can be made a saint.
I should have said excommunicated.
Anonymous, you are IGNORANT!! Abp. Lefebvre died, as good as Pope St. John Paul II, in a holy STATE OF GRACE!! Pope St. John Paul II was not “perfect,” ether, as he was admittedly very poor at Church administration, and refused to deal competently and responsibly with clergy criminals, who committed horrific crimes of child sex molestation. Saints like St. Joan of Arc appeared to be “excommunicated” too, but history set the record straight! St. Joan was not a “heretic,” she was Catholic French SAINT, who saved her country!!
WOW! Comparing the deaths of Pope St. Paul II with that of Lefebvre is SO WRONG! To date Lefebvre died EXCOMMUNICATED! John Paul II died in the state of grace. The Church has indeed nullified the excommunication of men and women after investigation, and some of them have even been canonized subsequently. BUT this isn’t so with Lefebvre who, to date, died excommunicated. Linda Maria stands corrected.
Abp. Lefebvre was a saintly archbishop, regardless of what you think, jon.
An attribute of a saint is that he is NEVER disobedient especially to those whom Our Lord has appointed to be the shepherds of His Church, regardless of what you think, LM.
Wow, I don’t know about that Linda Maria. Since SSPX confessions were invalid at the time Lefebvre died, one would have to assume that Lefebvre either did not sin after he broke from Rome or that he secretly confessed to a priest who held valid permission to hear confessions. And since ordaining priest and bishops without the permission of Rome is grounds for excommunication, and that that excommunication was carried out even if later removed, it would stand to reason that he had in fact sinned and had not been granted valid absolution. Therefore, Lefebvre presumably died in a state of disgrace and went to hell.
YFC— Your above post is mere unkind harrassment Not worth a reply. As the above article states– the Pope stated that no ecclesiastical permission of local bishops is necessary, for SSPX priestly ordinations. So– I would enjoy attending an ordination, and first Masses, of their new priests! Bless them! I am hoping and praying that with the recent changes at our local St. Patrick’s Seminary, all will go well, too! The Sulpician Fathers were there for more than a century! We need good, new priests, for our local churches– so, I hope all will go well! Bless all new priests being ordained soon, in June!
Interesting new disclaimer on only this article re. SSPX ordinations: “Comments below do not necessarily reflect the opinions or beliefs of CCD. CCD is faithful to the magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church.”
Was there any doubt about this?
I am glad to see the disclaimer. I honestly could not tell where the website stood on many issues.
Wait a minute! Nearly everything I’ve recently read about Pope Francis has been critical of him for being a crazy liberal…and now this! Apparently the good Pope has decided with regards to the schismatic SPSXers: “who am I to judge?” May God continue to bless Pope Francis!
Maybe Pope Francis is trying to do what St. Francis did when God told him, “Rebuild My Church.” Let us pray that God guides him in that direction.
Peoples: Let me throw a curve ball here to you. If the beloved SSPX were to be “regularized” canonically (i.e., if they were to be given “amnesty” in the Church and made legal again) WITHOUT their having to recognize all of the teachings of the Church (including and especially Vatican II) what is to prevent the hierarchy in Rome from “regularizing” those on the other side of the spectrum without their needing to repent and make a firm purpose of amendment (let’s say the divorced and remarried who are not living in continence, practicing homosexuals, Lutherans, and other categories of peoples despised by the habitués of this blog)? You folks who are “masters” in condemning Rome and the hierarchy: don’t you recognize how in fact…
dangerous what the beloved Fellay is suggesting here? You see peoples, the beloved SSPX are seemingly masters of half-truths and mischaracterizations (as evidenced by the way their “agents” practice the same things in their posts here): I wouldn’t put it past the beloved Fellay to overstate his case here. For instance take his unfortunate statement that “the ordination is recognized by the Church not just as valid but in order”–not quite true. They’re not in order: they are still illicit, per Ecclesia Dei.
Vatican II rejects some core Catholic beliefs which date from the time of Christ. Sorry, it is not exact, it is “aggiornamento,” “modernized” to suit the times, that’s all. And no one except an extremist takes it seriously. The religion established by Jesus Christ, more than 2,000 years ago, has very little to do with the modern world, and the mere human Catholic prelates, who participated in Vatican II. Th saintly Pope John XXIII was advised numerous times, not to call a second Vatican council, and his prefect of the CDF (then-called the “Holy Office”), Cardinal Ottaviani– refused to accept the Council’s documents.
What is this specific Vatican II teaching that must be accepted, Jon? The “beloved” Fellay is just relaying what is at present. If that presents a conflict with Ecclesia Dei, this is something that needs to be addressed by those charged with relaying consistent teaching.
If there is a lack of clarity that’s not the Society’s fault.
There is NOTHING inconsistent between Pope Benedict’s teaching that the beloved SSPX have no legal ministry in the Church and Ecclesia Dei’s latest statement that the ordinations of the beloved SSPX are NOT LICIT! NO lack of clarity here in the Magisterium’s position, no inconsistency. THIS is what is “at present.” Therefore, I maintain that Fellay has overstated his case and that AMalley stands corrected, yet again!
It’s not +Fellay’s “case”, jon. There is merely a relating of affairs as they are. One such affair is your completely ignoring the question. What is the specific Vatican II teaching that must be accepted?
Moving forward, you may wish to consider that what “you” maintain is not at issue here. To include corrections, now or later. Only the truth about matters holds any bearing. And, in truth, there is an irregular situation, nothing more, nothing less.
You may want to read further as to paraphrase +Benedict, “our society needs to have at least one group to which no tolerance may be shown; which one can easily attack and hate.”
AM: ALL of the teachings of Vatican II MUST BE ACCEPTED by your beloved SSPX if they want their status to be regularized by the Church. Very recently Cardinal Müller gave an interview to Raymond Arroyo in which he said concerning your beloved SSPX: “Everybody who wants to be Catholic has to accept the Catholic creed and the Councils and to accept the seven sacraments and other doctrines and has to accept the hierarchical communion with the local bishop and the community of all bishops and the Holy Father we have.”
jon, stop beating around the bush and just come out and say it…you hate real Catholics!
Folks, your responses are totally hilarious, especially Anonymous’. And Ron, you’re totally wrong. What I hate in fact are dissent and disobedience; I hate the Evil One who has duped members of the Body of Christ into disobedience and heresy, and who wants humanity dead.
…name the heresy, jon.
jon, you don’t know anything about Church “disobedience” out of necessity, for loyalty to Jesus Christ–you have NO KNOWLEDGE of the way Canon Law works! No training! No understanding either— of human weakness, and use of Canon Law for political, personal motives! Such as when evil Cardinal Mahoney used Canon Law to harm Mother Angelica, due to her public rebukes of him, on EWTN TV, for his heretical statements on the Holy Eucharist. St. Padre Pio told the Pope, after Vatican II, that he would only say the old Latin Mass, lifelong, period– and his wish was granted.
“Out of necessity”–right. Folks, this argument of the beloved SSPX is bunk. BUNK! How so? The person who ultimately determines if Canons 1323 and 1324 which speak of the state of necessity in the Church is the Supreme Pontiff, who at that time was John Paul II. And according to him, there is NO EMERGENCY, NO STATE OF NECESSITY that would warrant Lefebvre’s ordinations of the bishops, and so John Paul II informed Lefebvre of that fact through Cardinal Gantin. In the Church, LM, the main interpreter of Canon Law is the legislator–the Supreme Pontiff. And the Pontiff at that time, prior to Lefebvre’s most disobedient consecration of the bishops, informed the same Lefebvre that what he was about to do is illegal. And Lefebvre did…
it anyway! Disobedient.
AM: I can name at least three heresies into which your beloved SSPX has fallen into. But in the interest of space, I’ll name the most glaring and the most serious. The Second Lateran Council has declared anathema those who, “simulating a kind of religiosity”, condemn the Sacrament of Our Lord’s Body and Blood. By denigrating this Sacrament which is also called the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in the Ordinary Form– consistently in their publications–your beloved SSPX has fallen into heresy.
jon— Close to his death, Abp. Lefebvre correctly petitioned the Vatican, for permission to do the four episcopal consecrations, and he waited patiently for the Vatican’s reply, as he would soon die — but TIME RAN OUT!! The Vatican played games of “politics” with him– and made NO REPLY!! So, out of necessity, close to death — he did the consecrations, which incurred the excommunications. Later, Pope Benedict CORRECTLY lifted the false excommunications. Educate yourself! Your vicious attitude is horrible, and unnecessary!
jon, best to have a kind attitude of goodwill, towards all sincere Christians! Yes, the SSPX is not yet in communion with Rome, but yes, Rome also has accepted them for certain things, sacramentally, as we all know. Of course, many Catholics may not want to attend one of their Masses, if they are not yet in communion with Rome– that’s just fine! But we all should have a good attitude towards all of our fellow followers of Christ! I grew up in a city with many Orthodox churches, many not in communion with Rome. Yet, we all were friends, together! Makes sense– we Christians all should be friends!
WRONG is LM, yet again! Check your history please. According to the Latin Mass Society’s own obituary of John Paul II: “On June 3, Lefebvre wrote that he would still go ahead with the June 30 consecrations. On June 9, 1988, Pope John Paul II replied to him with a personal letter, recalling the agreement the archbishop had signed on May 5 and appealing to him not to proceed with a design that ‘would be seen as nothing other than a schismatic act, the theological and canonical consequences of which are known to you.’ When no reply came from Lefebvre, this letter was made public on Jun 16.” Therefore, your information Linda Maria IS FALSE! The fact is that the beloved Lefebvre was warned ahead of time not to do it, and he did it…
anyway. DISOBEDIENCE!
jon, not too long ago, I saw a ragged street evangelist in a shopping area, aggressively preaching, with lots of Biblical quotes, handing out literature to passers-by. He announced that all Catholics had better “beware,” as they were going to Hell! I laughed! Sounds like radical jihadhist Muslims, with ISIS– doing what they mistakenly think is “religious warfare,” for Allah! Do you want to end up like that, jon? I think it is much better, and more “Christian,” to try to follow Jesus, just as He said, and avoid useless anger, arguments, hatred, and egotism, which is a sign of diabolic activity!
jon, your above May 31 posts are unkind and unhelpful to the Church. Our dear Pope St. John Paul II did many things, both good and bad, no one is perfect! Nevertheless, he is still a saint, regardless. And he would never want you to condemn good Churchmen! He would want you to RESPECT Abp. Lefebvre, regardless! The excommunications were lifted, for good reasons, by Pope Benedict. It is all now gone and forgotten. Put away your bloodthirsty sword– it does not help Christ!
Of course, Pope St. John Paul II did commit errors, as we all know– he was a human being. He was criticized for not properly handling the very dangerous clergy child sex abuse cases, and for also publicly supporting criminal clergy child molesters. Some Catholics have left the Church due to this. But the Church still honors Pope St. John Paul II, as a saint. Only God is perfect.
And just for the record Linda Maria: Pope Benedict lifted the excommunication of the four bishops ordained by Lefebvre. But Lefebvre’s excommunication was no so lifted. Therefore Lefebvre’s excommunication remains! Now folks, by saying this I am. not being unkind nor unhelpful. I am setting the record straight, I am proclaiming the truth.
Bishop Fellay knew the consequence of his actions and so did the four bishops.. Sin abounds. We can’t call sin “good” just because we agree with the sinner on something. You are conflating the holiness of the TLM with the holiness of an individual who did something wrong. If he is a personal hero of yours, that is your choice but you cannot say that he died in a state of grace and we can’t say for sure that he did not. No one but God really knows.
jon, not too long ago, Pope Francis had an historic meeting with Patriarch Kirll of the Russian Orthodox Church. — the first meeting of the two churches, since the year 1054!! It is very important to act very mature, jon– and to show RESPECT, kindness, and brotherly love towards our fellow Christians– including Abp. Lefebvre! He is not under the faulty “politics” and flawed judgement of John Paul II, ultimately– he is with God, and let God work His own Divine Justice, with all — Patriarch Kirill, Pope Francis, Pope John Paul II, other Orthodox Patriarchs, Abp. Lefebvre, etc.
The Russian Orthodox Church has its own church calendar, different from ours, and it canonizes its own saints. It has many great saints and martyrs– and many new saints and martyrs, I bet–
after the bloody Communist national massacre of Russian Orthodox, and destruction of all their churches! Most of their clergy, and millions of devout laymen and their families were killed! I bet we will see them in Heaven, beloved by God, Whom they died for — but you may not make it, jon, to see them in Heaven, with God– unless you change your bloodthirsty, hateful attitude!
Anonymous, you misunderstand the nature of sin, and the nature of “church disobedience.” St. Padre Pio, for example, told the Pope, after the Council, that he refused to say the New Mass, and he wished to say only the old Latin Mass, lifelong! “Disobedient ?” YES!! “Sinful?” NO!! St. Padre Pio got lucky— luckier than Abp. Lefebvre– because the Pope decided to indulge Padre Pio, and granted his wish! I am sure we will see all these souls– Pope Bl. Paul VI, Pope St. John Paul II, St. Padre Pio, and Abp. Lefebvre– in Heaven!!
There is a HUGE difference, in Roman Catholic Canon Law– and in the eyes of God– between an excommunication incurred by a fine, morally and spiritually-excellent Catholic prelate, who feels he must do an act of disobedience to Church Law, out of dire necessity (due to his imminent death, when the Vatican makes NO REPLY to his petition to consecrate four bishops)– and the excommunication incurred by a disobedient, extremely sinful, mere Catholic church-goer, who deliberately commits the mortal sin of abortion. The two cases are NOT ALIKE!!
After Vatican II, St. Padre Pio disagreed with the reforms of his religious order, and the New Mass– he risked the consequences of disobedience to his religious order, but tried to be a good sport, in the end. The Pope also gave him his wish, to say ONLY the Tridentine Latin Mass. Abp. Lefebvre visited St. Pio, and there is a mis-reported remark, written by an inept reporter– that St. Padre Pio rebuked Lefebvre, for the same problem of “disobedience,” that St. Padre Pio himself experienced— but historians say this is a mis-quote. The two men were cordial.
Linda Maria is SO WRONG! A person who is excommunicated–such as your beloved Lefebvre–and dies without being reconciled IMPERILS his/her salvation. What the Church binds and looses on earth is bound and loosed also in heaven (Matt. 16:19), Our Lord promised to St. Peter and to the rest of his disciples. Therefore, to say as L.Maria does that “Lefebvre is in heaven,” is ridiculous and is NOT supported by Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium. LM IS TOTALLY WRONG!
St. Mother Teresa of Kolkata also was “disobedient” to her religious order, as she was supposed to stay within her convent school, and teach– and not go out into the street, to even help suffering people! Christ, however, moved her heart, to “disobey” her superiors– and in the end, she left her teaching order, to found her Missionaries of Charity– and became a great Saint! One needs to be a very mature Christian, and to deeply study rules for religious orders, and Canon Law, to have any mature perceptions, of the life of holiness, in the context of religious rules and Church Law.
St. Mother Teresa of Kolkata was reported to have said some morally-inappropriate things. She also tragically defended the notorious, dangerous, convicted Jesuit child (and teen) molester, Fr. Donald McGuire, who served as her Confessor. Yet, she passed all her tests, when her case was carefully examined, in proceedings for her Cause of Canonization– and she was canonized as a Saint!
If the SSPX are half truth tellers then all the Saints prior to Vatican 2 are as well ? Tell us jon, how many Saints attended the Vatican 2 mass, built by less than half truth tellers.
I find your question impertinent Joe, deserving no rebuttal from me.
“I find your question impertinent Joe, deserving no rebuttal from me” meaning: you have stumped me and as a self appointed theologian I cannot give you an answer consistent with my constant drivel
There is an article by Benedict Turvill that I recommend. It is: “Why Young Catholics Love the Extraordinary Mass Form, but don’t expect then to disparage the Novus Ordo. I find it very enlightening, and one can easily google it.
Linda Marie you are correct, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre will one day be a saint in The Holy Roman Catholic Church!
Don’t hold your breath until that canonization, Romulus!
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pope-slams-conservative-fanatics-who-make-doctrine-an-ideology
Bishop Fellay has already expressed the concern that the entreaties by Rome may be a ‘trap,’ or strategy to neutralize the SSPX. Let’s hope not, yet it’s difficult to predict given statements/actions by the Pope opposed to orthodoxy. Like Lenin’s international communism washing over eastern Europe, regularization may drown the SSPX in V2 ideology. As Antonio Gramsci warned, the final takeover would not be by tanks or guns, but by secularizing the culture to the point of Godlessness. But who am I to judge?
Thank you Jon for your insightful comments. In my view the Archbishop Lefbrve and the SSPXers are nothing more than schismatics ; they are Protestants. They disagree with the teachings of the Church. The good Bishops at Vatican II, all educated in the traditional teachings of the Church, overwhelming supported Sacrosanctum Concilium and Nostra Aetate. Lefbrve and his minions are sore losers!
Hey Fred sing along, Cumbia My Lord. This is the sort of garbage i would guess you call Catholic.
Joe, you mean, “Kumbaya,” right? “Kumbaya, my Lord,” sung off-key in church, after Vatican II— and all that sort of garbage…
I hope the SSPX priests will enthusiastically embrace the true Catholic Church and its teachings, including those promulgated at the licit and legitimate Second Vatican Council. Also, may the Lord lead them to celebrate the sacraments in the vernacular and enter into a life of ministry and service to the one, true and holy Roman Catholic Church led by our Holy Father, Pope Francis.
Pope Francis is very smart in implementing his strategies to unify the Church. Do not be surprised by his next move intended to assuage the moderate and liberal Catholics: women deacons. That they may all be one!
Fred it is you and the Novus Ordo who are the “Protestants” we have never changed we are who we were prior to the Second Vatican Council, the saints would NEVER recognize the Mass if they were alive today!! Drums, guitars, altar girls, women running around the altar, rock, mariachi, folk music, felt banners, standing for Holy Communion, holding hands, kiss of peace, females in leotards prancing around like Roman vestal virgins, giant puppets, need I go on??????????
Romulus Augustus is presumptuous and indeed ridiculous for daring to speak for the saints (“the saints would never recognize the Mass if they were alive today”). FALSE! There have been saints who love the Ordinary Form and were sustained by it during their earthly life. You may have gripes on the MANNER with which some Masses are offered, but the Ordinary Form–reverently offered–is the SACRAMENT and must be revered.
jon; from Magnificent Si Si No No Series on “The Errors of Vatican II”. Archbishop Lefebvre clearly saw the danger of the new teachings at the time of the Council itself. He did not need to wait for “bad interpretations” to surface, but recognzied at once the documents themselves as flawed. In 1964, he said that the Conciliar schemas “have a spirit of rupture and suicide,” and went on to say, “There exists a spirit of non-Catholic or rationalist ecumenism that has become a battering ram for unknown hands to pervert doctrine.”
for more, see Archbishop Lefebvre: A Bishop Speaks at the Council (deals with the manifold problems of the Vatican II) go to: https://www.oltyn.org/page8/page44/Lefebvre-
jon– Saint Mother Teresa of Kolkata continually complained to Pope St. John Paul II, about the corruptions and abuses of the modern post-Vatican II Mass, and its terrible effects on her religious order, and on Catholic worshipers. He ignored her.
P.S. The abuses and corruptions of the modern Mass of post-Vatican II, have turned many Catholics away from the practice of the Faith. It has also turned away many would-be, faithful Catholic seminarians. Right after the Council, more than 200,000 priests and prelates left the Church, many nuns, too, and many religious orders, churches, and Catholic schools began to close, and a new priest shortage crisis was announced. The New Mass is experimental, does not teach nor inspire holiness (with a few rare exceptions), and it mainly encourages secular, 1960s-style humanistic psychology and ecumenism.
LM’s comment (“the New Mass does not teach nor inspire holiness”) touches on the heretical. To condemn the Mass–a Sacrament of the Church as taught by the Catechism–is heretical according to the Second Lateran Council. Folks, sadly, LM’s words does not surprise us. Sympathizers of the beloved SSPX, and the members of the beloved SSPX themselves, have so separated themselves from the Church that they have been veering towards heresy. Beware! Beware!
Yes– BOTH the New Mass and Sacraments, and the old Latin Mass and Sacraments are valid! And NO, I, myself, would not advocate officially joining the lay group of the SSPX— until they are in full communion with Rome. That is my opinion. YES– the Blessed Sacrament is the same, in both the SSPX as well as the regular Catholic churches! And YES– we now can receive some of the Sacraments– in BOTH churches!
LM is SO WRONG! “BOTH churches”?? This is hilarious. Dear Linda Maria: there is only ONE Church: “one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.” And your beloved SSPX to date has no legal ministry in it!
jon, you are far too full of waste-of-time, vicious over-reactions, to fellow good, devout Catholics, spending your entire life defending an ecumenical council!! The Pope and all his bishops wouldn’t do that! And I never said “two churches” and I do not believe in “two churches,” either — ridiculous!! I just said that the Mass is valid, under either form, the New Mass or the old Latin Mass! Can you handle that? And Pope Francis DOES NOT LIKE CANON LAW, jon!! Can’t you see that for yourself? Don’t waste your life, practicing your religion all wrong– it won’t help you get to Heaven!
Ignored her? Maybe he just disagreed with her. Maybe he thought she exaggerated the negative concerning the Novus Ordo Mass. And maybe she did. Though Mother Teresa is a saint, she was not beyond all human faults and misjudgments. You yourself have stressed that point in these pages—and emphasize it now about the very saint you lambaste—Pope St. Paul II.
Should read “Pope St. JOHN Paul II”.
roberto vicente— I certainly do not “lambaste” Pope St. John Paul II! I respect him! I only pointed out the obvious, that St. Mother Teresa of Kolkata often complained to him about the New Mass– and she wrote, that she felt, he often ignored her. And so? An example of two saints– one who liked the New Mass, and one who complained about it!
Romulus, please don’t.
RA: please read about the history of the Mass. Immediately after the resurrection of Christ, the Mass had no resemblance to the elaborate production that you and others claim is the only legitimate Mass. There have been many forms of the Mass since Pentecost. As for guitars and drums at Mass- which parish? I’d really like to attend the celebration.
Immediately after the resurrection of Christ, there were no cathedrals either. The modernist wreckovations hardly rival the cathedrals in beauty. The same can be said for a comparison between the TLM and the NO (which “inspired” the modern “architecture”). The revolution started with Luther who removed the individual from the auspices of the Church, and 250 years later the French Revolution removed governments from the auspices of Catholicism. When the Jacobins placed a whore on the altar of Notre Dame, there could be no doubt the division. That divide rages to this day. There are people who can see all this and consciously pick their side, others pick liberalism because they’ve stupidly taken the bait.
Fred, the early Mass grew out of Jewish worship, and contained elements of the three cultures which basically shaped Christianity– Jewish, Greek, and Roman. The Christian religion grew a great deal, transformed from a Jewish religious sect into a non-Jewish religion of its own, in which followers no longer had to be Jews.Throughout history, at various times, the Mass became corrupted by secular abuses, and was then purified. In the post-Vatican II era, the holy Mass was again greatly corrupted and abused, with secular elements which did not belong there– including secular pop music. Again, the Mass needs purification.
This is probably the only wise thing that Pope Francis has done during his pontificate. The traditional seminaries, monasteries, and convents are growing, but the modernist Vatican II ones are almost empty. God works in strange ways which we often do not comprehend. More than 40 years ago almost everyone thought the Tridentine Mass was dead and that Archbishop Lefebvre was schismatic. God’s wisdom is our folly. The Archbishop was 100% correct in most of the problems he tried to correct.
Why, Lianne, Lefebvre WAS indeed schismatic: Pope John Paul II declared it so after Lefebvre ordained those bishops in disobedience to the Holy Father. And even before that, he had been suspended “a divinis” for ordaining priests without permission! His entire seminary at Ecône was suspended, but the disobedient/beloved Lefebvre continued on. He died excommunicated! As a result, he tainted the traditional Mass with the blackness of disobedience, which is unfortunate.
As for your comment on growing seminaries among the traditional groups: Pope Francis several months ago spoke about this “swelling” of vocations among certain institutes and seminaries. “When they tell me that there is a Congregation that draws so many…
vocations, I must confess that I worry. The Spirit does not follow the logic of human success: it works in another way,” according to the Holy Father.
The Church teaches the WE are the church, not some big organization or some specific set of rules, doesn’t it? If that is the case, aren’t we, who believe that Christ died for our sins, all in the same “church” no matter the denomination? If I were a Presbyterian who believed what is taught in the Nicene Creed and in the Bible, would I not be a member of the church? Does it matter which denomination I belong to? I know the taught answers to these questions, but it might be worth a discussion some time.
Bob One– I bet God will be very happy to see Rev. Dr. Billy Graham, in Heaven, in a few years! He is a on-denominational evangelist! Who wants to be a bloodthirsty, “ISIS-style” Catholic– and end up “going down in flames???” I have some Russian Orthodox neighbors, who are very devout. They have a different church calendar than we do. They have a beautiful, ancient liturgy– and broke with Rome, over a thousand years ago!
They believe in lots of prayer and fasting. Their once-beloved Russia slaughtered many of them, and their clergy, due to Communism! I bet we shall see them all as saints and martyrs, in Heaven!