Name of Church Ss. Peter & Paul Church
Address 666 Filbert Street, San Francisco, CA 94133
Phone number 415-421-0809
Website https://salesiansspp.org/
Mass times Saturday vigil, 5 p.m. Sundays, 7:30 a.m., 8:45 a.m., 10:15 a.m. (Chinese), 11:45 a.m. (Italian; Latin on the first Sunday of the month), 1 p.m., 5 p.m. Daily, 7:30 a.m., 9 a.m., 12:15 p.m. Saturday, 7:30 a.m. and 9 a.m. Holy days, 7:30 a.m., 9 a.m., 12:15 p.m., 6 p.m. Eve of Holy days, 6 p.m.
Confessions Saturdays, 4-5 p.m., before Masses or by appointment
Names of priests All Salesians of Don Bosco (SDB): Father John Itzaina, pastor. Fathers Al Mengon and Gael Sullivan, associate pastors. In residence: Brother Joe Lockwood and Fathers Armand Oliveri and Mario Rosso.
School Pre-K through 8th grade.
Special groups Holy Name Society, Italian Catholic Federation, Knights of Columbus, St. Vincent de Paul Society, Salesian Boys/Girls Club, Salesian Cooperators, Chinese apostolate
Music English, Italian and Cantonese choirs
Homilies Ss. Peter & Paul is a more conservative parish in a culturally liberal city. It supports, for example, the pro-life movement and the annual West Coast Walk for Life and traditional marriage.
Fellow parishioners Founded to originally serve San Francisco’s Italian community, the parish today has a large Chinese as well as Anglo population.
Parking This can be a challenge. There is a parking garage, but it fills up quickly.
Cry room no
Additional observations The parish was established in 1884 in San Francisco’s North Beach neighborhood. The original church was destroyed in the 1906 earthquake and fire; the current church was built in 1924. It is known as The Italian Cathedral of the West, and has served as the home church and cultural center for San Francisco’s Italian-American community. It has become the home church for the city’s Chinese-American Catholic community as well. It is a beautiful church both inside and out, and is an iconic landmark in the city’s skyline. It has made cameo appearances in many movies, including Clint Eastwood’s Dirty Harry and The Dead Pool. Baseball great Joe DiMaggio married his first wife (not Marilyn Monroe) and had his funeral in the church (he grew up in the neighborhood). It is located opposite Washington Square, and its loud bells can be heard ringing throughout the neighborhood. (An angry neighbor took the church to court in 2003 to curtail the bell ringing, but lost.) Little Italy is nearby, as is Chinatown.
Great Church building, if you would take out the card table. Also, come on Pastor, one “Latin” Mass per month? Is it even a TLM, or only N.O. in Latin? Why the note about it supporting traditional marriage? All parishes in the country are obligated to support Traditional marriage (which can not include homosexuals, or divorced w/o annulment or those living together without separating). A very recent gospel included Christ’s own words about many not being able to follow through on the Faith and enter through the “narrow” (i.e., “Traditional”) door. Visit this Church for its history, but attend, and support, Star of the Sea on Geary.
St. C, your ideas are pure RUBBISH!!!!! Can’t you see any good in anything? This is one of the most traditional (orthodox) parishes in The City. It is a wonderful place to meet Christ. The Eucharist is the summit of our worship of God, but it is also the parish that makes it a Catholic Community. It is not, by the way, “narrow” is not “Traditional”. Reach the Catechism. By the way, also, it is not a card table, it is an altar. Read the Catechism section that talks about the Eucharist and the design and meaning of the altar. It is a table of sacrifice around which the congregation can gather and adore. More catechism and less opinion.
The only “RUBBISH” are the constantly whining comments and apologetics for the garbage of “implementing” Vatican II that you, and other select New Church people, spew out. You obviously fail to read anything that I and many others write (in the very short space provided). Much good and beautiful is available in the Church. The strong opposition often voiced are against the perversions of the Church’s great Tradition, its glorious form and substance, and substitution by the banal, the artless, the simply stupid, and the heretical. A believer simply cannot “dialog” with those who see beauty in destruction, and the desecration of the Faith. You read the Catechism and Canon Law, try Canon 212.
Looks like a card table to me.
This negativity is just par for the course for comments on this site. It’s a class case of the dyspeptic supporting the sociopathic.
Jim McCrea, grown-ups in our often-wayward Church and society, have a CHRISTIAN DUTY to criticize what is wrong, and seek corrections!
Bob One, why criticize a good, devout Catholic poster like St. Christopher? What good is it? Even if you don’t like the Latin Tridentine Mass any more (like you used to, when you were a young altar boy!) you really ought to give a word of encouragement to Catholics of today, who are devout– there are so few left! Your criticism is a terrible thing! Best to encourage good Catholics, of all kinds– the ones who love the Novus Ordo Masss, the old Latin Mass-lovers, the Catholics who are of various cultures and languages, those who are Charismatics, or Opus Dei members, or Byzantine, Ukranian Orthodox; etc. ALL are good! Save your criticisms for BAD “Catholics,” like Biden, Pelosi, etc.!!
Poor Catholics who love the old Latin Mass, NEVER receive any encouragement, and they put up with so much, in our Church— crazy novelties at the Novus Ordo Masses, plenty of secular, disrespectful talking and noise, lack of respect for the Blessed Sacrament, Eucharistic Ministers wearing immodest clothing, priests who deliberately teach and preach false, immoral beliefs, etc.! I will never forget the newscast, of Abp. Niederauer giving Holy Communion to the AWFUL “Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence,” (a group of transvestites, who openly MOCK our Church!) at Most Holy Redeemer Church! It made everyone SICK!!
Ever consider that the parishoners only want one Latin Mass a month? Or maybe the only Italian speaking priest is also the only Latin priest.
I personally think it is commendable that the parish is supporting the languages of the nearby area, Chinese and Italian. In my opinion, the US overemphasized ‘English only’ during immigration of 1870-1925. Yes, be fluent in American English. But keep various second languages.
Be like the Europeans, most of whom speak at least two languages.
Stunning church inside and out, just what a Roman Catholic Church should look like, however St. Chris is correct toss the “dinner table” restore the rest of the communion rail and implement the TLM seven day’s a week and unite the Chinese and Anglo congregation don’t divide them with separate language’s LATIN unites all races and creeds always always will. mikem we are NOT Europeans we are Americans first so ENGLISH FIRST AND FOREMOST, stop worshiping Europe they are a giant mess.
What is stunning is your disrespect for the Altar of our Lord. It is not a “card table” or a “dinner table”. Now we have even new claims about the Latin Mass…that Latin (the LANGUAGE, not the Mass, mind you!) “unites all races and creeds”. Of course that is hogwash. If the LANGUAGE of Latin united all races and creeds, everyone would use it every day. Instead, what we see consistently is that wherever people are given the chance to use their own ethnic language, they use that one rather than any national or super-national language. French in Quebec, Catalan and Basque in Spain, ethinic lanugages in USSR, various dialects in China. And none of them adopted Latin.
You promote hogwash, YFC.
” If the LANGUAGE of Latin united all races and creeds, everyone would use it every day.”
You ignorantly assume that everyone desires to be united with everyone else. Indeed, if given opportunity, the desire to remain distinct, different, a culture apart is evidenced by all of your examples.
Again, you illustrate with precision the faulty non-think so popular among those who wish to divide…. divide and conquer.
YFC– Church Latin is still the official language, for religious use only– of the Roman Catholic Church! Many religions have a special language, for worship of God! The Jews had a religious use of the Hebrew language, for their worship. Today, when a boy makes his Bar Mitzvah–(sometimes girls, too!) he has to study and memorize Hebrew scripture, and present a special scriptural reading, in a little ceremony, at a local synagogue. The child must learn Biblical Hebrew, regardless of the country where they live. Religious use of language, is not at all the same, as secular use of the vernacular languages of the world’s countries, in everyday life!
All of the Vatican II documents re written in Church Latin. Americans all used to know very well, the different uses of the classical language, Latin, especially by the time they were in high school. The ecclesiastical use of Church Latin, with its Italian pronunciation– for the Roman Catholic Church— and the intellectual use of classical Latin, with a Germanic pronunciation, in university and professional circles.
Of course Janek is right (again): there is absolutely no prescription for a “table” to be substituted for the altar in any of the actual documents (constitutions, declarations and decrees that is) of Vatican II. Nor is there any prescription in those same decrees for the reversal of the priest’s orientation toward the altar, of course.
All you Vatican-II-allegiants, if you wish to abide by V2, then please get this corrected by contacting your fondly pious hierarchs.
I never suggested we are Europeans, nor do I worship them or any other humans. I
clearly called for fluency in American English [leaving English English to that island in the North Sea.] A second language is always appreciated when visiting countries where that is the official language.
Ladies and Gentlemen: the urgent need for adequate catechesis and correction is evident in the quality of the dissentious comments you read above. People, the mandate to have an altar detached from the apse comes directly from The General Instruction to the Roman Missal which is written by the legitimate ecclesial authority of the Church (ie the Magisterium). It’s in GIRM 299: “Altare maius exstruatur a pariete seiunctum, ut facile circumiri et in eo celebratio versus populum peragi possit…” Because the relic of a martyred saint resides there it is not a mere “table” but the place on which the Sacrifice of Our Lord is made present. It is sacred and holy. Therefore, your calling this a “card table” is heretical,…
irreverent, and sinful. If one were to ask why some folks here deride this altar, I have my own theories and I have expressed them in other posts. Suffice it to say, the disobedient comments have again been called out. They stand corrected.
As usual, “jon” you assume ignorance: what is your point, exactly? The new GIRM 299 has been a firestorm of controversy, since its purposeful mis-translation was introduced. Space does not permit much discussion here, but it is clear that VII never required the Mass to be said versus populum. Proper translation would have the clause you mention locate the altar away from the wall “which is useful wherever possible” (with the assumption that this could facilitate the N.O. but not require it). It did not require desecration of historic churches to achieve this. Anyway, all totalitarian revolutions change laws, the Traditional version of which can be restored.
StChris, Vatican II may not have allowed it, but the same Magisterium that wrote Vatican II allowed (not required) the use of an altar apart from the apse as evident in GIRM. The point here is that legitimate authority can allow and disallow what goes on in the Sacraments.
Again, what is my point? Denigrating sacred items in the sanctuary is irreverent and sinful. Upholding all documents of the Church is my point, which includes GIRM.
….one does not uphold documents for the sake of the documents, but for the good that those documents represent. That’s why authority that is used to do damage is damaging and should be resisted if it crosses the line of doing harm.
Sorry, “jon,” you insist that merely because present authorities demand this or that requirement makes them, ipse dixit, the same as all other Tradition. That can never be the case. Communion in the hand, standing — regardless of its “legality,” will never honor Christ the same as communion on the tongue, kneeling. Having a Clown Mass, or Mass with Fat Nuns Dancing, will never impart the same graces as any TLM (notwithstanding that Christ elects to inhabit the Host at consecration). Oh, and read Canon 212.
WRONG! Prove that having an altar apart from the wall is “damaging”. We will not be distracted by your straw man arguments such as clown Masses and dancing, for that’s not at issue here. The issue is the disobedience of those who denigrate sacred items in the sanctuary!
“…The issue is the disobedience of those who denigrate sacred items in the sanctuary.”
The issue is the misuse of authority to undermine the sacrificial signs by replacing an altar of sacrifice with a dinner table.
Authority has a purpose and it is not to draw the flock away from the truth by manipulation and head games, jon.
Ladies and gentlemen. Consider AMalley/StChristopher (they could be the same person, who knows). They have not and cannot prove their point. They’ve been asked to show, to demonstrate that having the altar apart from the apse is damaging and they haven’t proven anything. The truth is that versus populum at Mass is permitted, not mandated. Masses like this can be offered reverently and prayerfully. Saints are being formed in the Ordinary Form with this kind of priestly orientation. Some parishes are going ad orientem, and nothing wrong with that.
Folks, this is the sane, balanced, informed POV. Not this bombastic, hysterical, irreverent, and sinful POV from AMally and St.Chris that the sacred altar is a “card” or “dinner”…
table. The consecrated altar, with or without relic, used in the OF or the EF, whether used ad orientem or versus populum, is SACRED and HOLY for it is a representation of Christ. You stand corrected.
You know Ann, this constant denigrating of the Mass, the Lord present in the Eucharist, by language such as yours this morning at 6:22 Am is truly horrifying. Really, I think you need to step back and realize that the insults you throw at people who worship at those altars also insults the one who is sacrificed on those altars. Even moreso.
Wow, YFC the homo-apologist feigns horror at a faithful Catholic’s alleged disrespect for the Mass. What a bizarro world. As if Christ isn’t insulted and offended by gay sex. Take a good, long look at yourself, YFC.
Wow is right, Sawyer. All the focus on protecting the sanctity of a table while the temple of the Holy Ghost – the Body – is regularly denigrated to the horror of all the heavenly host and God Himself who created us in His image and likeness.
Really, one would think YFC could step back and try to realize what he’s doing with the living Temple of God instead of pretending that offending God is at the core of his “outrage”.
You Ann Malley and Sawyer would rather change the subject to something gay than deal with your own denigration of the source and summit of Christian life. Christ present on the altar is what you despise.
But let’s deal with facts, instead of your insults against myself:
First: An altar disengaged from the wall allows the altar of sacrifice, (what you all variously call a card table, a “dinner table”, as you yourself said), allows the altar of sacrifice to be incensed and honored as the ancient altars were incensed and honored…from all directions.
Secondly, it is the Pope who has the authority to determine the mode and method of worship. Not Sawyer and not Ann Malley. If you want to elevate yourselves to the position of Pope,…
Now, jon the pious has asserted something he knows, or should know, to be false: that in every church, every “table” substituted for an altar, actually contains martyrs’ relics, which sanctify the table somehow. He uses this to discredit Janek and others.
I can personally attest this is not true . In fact in all or nearly all of the churches, perhaps 15 or more, in which I have served as a lay minister, I have personally and throughly inspected the altars. Only two had an altar stone (because in each case, the pastor was very traditional, and insisted on it.
Based on my experience, few, if any, New Church tables have an altar stone with martyrs’ relics. After Vatican II, the requirement of an as late stone often…
..of an altar stone often “lapsed”, and a mere wooden table was utilized. In many cases this remains the case. This is what happens when revolution invades the Church.
More interesting to me is jon’s avoidance of his usual knee-jerk reliance on the presumed authority of the “decrees of Vatican 2.” Now he is relying only on GIRM, a document that has been riven with errors since it’s inception, and currently in its 4th or 5th revision (or more, depending how you count them).
V2’s decrees never call for a table: always an altar. Why? The altar represents the divine sacrifice of Christ. A table is for a mere human dinner.
So why is jon not following Vatican 2? (A. Follow the $)
GIRM is legitimate as it is written by the LEGITIMATE Magisterium of the Church who has the authority to set the rubrics of the Mass. So, Campion is wrong. As for relics, the fact alone that the altar is consecrates makes derision of this altar as a “card table” irreverent and sinful!
Folks, it is NEVER allowed to make fun or and to disrespect sacred items in the sanctuary. It is a SIN.
It is hard to obtain admission of error by jon the establishment-ist, but readers will notice he admitted by silence that in fact many, if not most tables used (in contradiction to Vatican II) in place of the actual altar, do NOT contain martyrs’ relics (=altar stone). jon knows this. In almost every Jesuit chapel in every university and high school, for example, this is the case.
So, his attempt to discredit Janek and others, as tho they were “disrespectful” to the relics in the table, was, in fact, false. There often are no such relics in the modern supper table.
As for jon’s support of GIRM, which he knows has a history of errors and corrections, there is no obligation to follow a Vatican commission document if it is clearly in error. In this situation, GIRM actually conflicts with V2 itself, which council we are told is the summative expression of Church teaching. It is a classic example of the current doubletalk.
WRONG! The entity that determines whether or not a Church document is in error is the Magisterium. Not Campion. If the document is still out there, it is in effect. As for his allegation that GIRM contradicts Vatican II, he’ll have to prove that. Otherwise, he’s all bunk.
Whether or not there’s a relic, the altar on which the bread and wine become the Real Presence during Mass is sacred is HOLY! The altar itself is a representation of Christ. Denigrating it therefore is SACRILEGE! A SIN!
Denigrating the intellect and sound Catholic sense of Catholics who see through the subterfuge of pretending a coffee table is a worthy representation of Christ is an ABUSE. A MISUSE of authority which has shown forth by way of rotten fruit, jon. Like saying Mom cooked you this poison and it came from your mother so don’t you dare disrespect her in refusing to choke it down. Ignore those deformed ones who have been ravaged by imbibing poison.
Stop facilitating the abuse of the sheep. Stop facilitating the perversion of the mind and souls of those who are made in the image and likeness of God.
Your pretense that God requires we be little more than robots, obedient to whatever is programmed into our capacitors is an aping of God’s…
… design. Obviously so. That’s why we’re warned about false shepherds and blind guides. Because they will come. They are HERE. They are jon’s good buddies.
The Truth shall set you free, jon, not Vatican II, not a magisterium that has of late been all over the map, not shepherds who are most notably divided on even basic issues like whether or not there is even a single soul in Hell.
Enough. As for proof, you prove your confusion and obedient dissembling orders with every one your posts shouting sin and disobedience whenever gross hypocrisy is pointed out. Good thing you didn’t live in Our Lord’s time or you’d have had a parched throat from tagging Him around to decry His “disobedience” and “sin” of speaking out truthfully…
… against those who would ravage the sheep to keep their place and a worldly “peace”.
AMalley: if I may set your thinking aright here. The rotten fruit you speak of is found in your denigration of sacred items in the sanctuary. The rotten fruit is your disobedience and of those who despise the legitimate clergy of the Church. The rotten fruit is your sacrilege. The rotten fruit is your not being able to prove anything you say against Vatican II, the clergy, the Pope. The rotten fruit is the anti-semitism of a Williamson and a Fellay. The rotten fruit is your idolatry of rubrics in the EF. The rotten fruit is your denigration of the OF. Should I continue?
The rotten fruit, jon, is a wasted intellect and will such as you display here. So continue if you’d like, but you’re only demonstrating having willfully given up that which God endowed you with in order to properly discern.
Sadly, love of the truth is replaced with fear of being labeled. And, as evidenced by your rant, you fear being called any of the things that you so liberally spew at others. All the while having zero capacity to discern what your post says about you, the poster.
Grace builds upon nature, jon. And if, as you say, the lawful ministers are those in authority then, like it or not, they are responsible for all that is rotten in the vineyard. Even if you wish to blame it on the scandalized sheep.
Campion, back in the day, all altars had “Altar Stones” set in the top of the altar, containing a relic or two. Our parish priest would carry a small altar stone with him to put on the altar when he went camping with the Scouts. Today, every altar I have seen has relics. They are, however, in in an altar stone on the top of the altar, but in a sealed spot on the inside of the altar. When a new altar is consecrated, the Bishop blesses the relics and places them in the altar. They are sealed in later. Look under the altar, not on top, and you may find the “missing” relics.
Thank you for trying to educate me, Bob One, because I must appear uninformed and uncareful in my testimony.
The “supper tables” used in large part I have examined, over and over, in many churches, chapels and the like, WERE examined top and bottom, by myself. They obviously were of simple wood construction and I am well aware of an altar-stone insert. None.
In many cases the rector or pastor just admitted, “Oh, we don’t have to have that anymore. ” In many cases, such as at the Loyola U. student chapel shared with the Jesuits, it was, and remains, a Home Depot butcher block. No: no martyrs’ relics.
My main point is that the criticism of Janek and others was to try to portray them as disrespectful and even…
Mikem, I do speak three languages and very proud to say that! However when it comes to worshipping God the unifiying tounge is Latin, just like the Jews use Hebrew, and Muslims use Classical Arabic even though the majority of Muslims in the world are NOT ARABS but Arabic from the Quran unites all Muslims world wide be they Arab, Persian, Afghans, Bengalis, well you get it I hope???
My worship language is English. Get it? That daily prayers, and the Mass for that matter, is prayed in every language under the sun, speaks to the universality and catholicity of the Christian faith far more than artificially unifying around an arbitrary dead language which was probably not even spoken by our Savior.
You and your pals certainly have your Church today. In fact, you and the local Catholic power structure would feel right at home with William Tyndale and his English Bible, and with the Cranmer Mass, as the English separated from the True Church. Among other things, the English came to believe that the “congregation” was different than the Catholic model, with its separation of roles between priest and lay people. A principle difficulty of Vatican II implementation has been to embrace the principles of the Anglican/Church of England structure. Latin is critical to a Catholic reformation, and the proper ordering of the babble of modern languages.
Having a diversity of languages hardly speaks to the universality of a unified body, YFC, but rather to the reality of shifting meanings. Latin being a dead language is perfect as that assures that the meaning of words is not corrupted by vulgar usage.
Gay used to mean happy and joyful. Not anymore.
Get it?!
..or even sacrilegious, based on the supposed presence of “martyrs ‘ relics ” in the New Church supper tables. That isn’t true: many, though not all, liturgical tables do NOT have the ancient traditional altar-stone.
By the way, the last time I checked on the supper table-“altar” in Orradre Chapel at St Ignatius High in SF a few years ago, it was a simple wood table. I will check next time I am thete, usually for a funeral, if that remains the case. But, with the Jesuits, only a fool would bet on it now having an altar-stone. Not their style of “church.”
Again, whether or not there’s a relic imbedded, just the mere fact that an altar is set apart for sacred use, and HAS BEEN USED for the Mass, makes it sacred. Your continued denigration of any altar is SACRILEGIOUS! A SIN!
Must See Video: Ad Orientem
https://www.veilsbylily.com/must-see-video-ad-orientem/
LOVE the website, “Veils by Lily,” which put out this video, recently! I get their emails, and LOVE all their beautiful videos, and religious output! This video is WONDERFUL!
“Take refuge in the Scriptures as Jesus in the flesh.” — St Ignatius of Antioch
“Take refuge in GIRM as Jesus in the flesh.” –jon, the establishment man
[By the way, even GIRM #302 calls for saints’ relics (not necessarily martyrs’) to be placed in the new moveable New Mass supper-table.
So, why don’t they follow their own “magisterial, under pain-of-excommunication and eternal fire” documents?]
Campion, whether or not there is a relic on an altar in use is not the issue here. The issue here is the sacrilege of those who would denigrate and disrespect in words the sacred items in the sanctuary.
jon, you need to grow a lot, and widen your life experience of religion! Go talk, for example, to Byzantine Catholics, Ukranian Catholics, or Anglo-Catholics, or many others, in communion with Rome, and see how their churches, liturgies, books, traditions, and rules, are not like yours! Catholicism DID NOT BEGIN, with Vatican II, in the year 1962!! And our Pope– now in his eighth decade of life– DOES NOT run the Church according to any petty rules, of any Church Council! STOP HARASSING PRE-CONCILIAR CATHOLICS, jon!! They have a DEFINITE PLACE in our Church!! RESPECT THEM!!
I beg to differ: it is the Holy Father, the bishops, priests, and lay people who mostly go to the OF who are being belittled or “harassed” in his place. Additionally, there is NO SUCH THING as a “pre-Conciliar Catholic.” That’s a myth conjured up in your own imagination. One is either a baptized Catholic, OR NOT!
jon, please try to grow up little! The Holy Father and his priests and bishops ARE NOT BEING HARASSED by Tridentine Mass lovers! NOT AT ALL!! There is always room, jon, for plenty of DISAGREEMENT, without HURTING or BELITTLING anyone! Try to see that in this world, there will ALWAYS be disagreements– so jon, why can’t you MAKE YOUR PEACE with that– and just be a NICE GENTLEMAN to pre-Conciliar Catholics? The Pope has GOOD MANNERS with LOTS OF OVE for them! Why not YOU??
I will maintain that it is those who go to the Ordinary Form and who love it are the ones being belittled by the likes of LMaria. Just for instance, only the other day I attended Mass in the EF and after Mass one of these folks with a wide smile and meek voice hands me the “Christian Warfare” booklet. It’s got prayers, devotions, meditations–all good. Then there are the Examination of Conscience. The Examen considers going to the Ordinary Form A SIN! I looked at the publisher’s name, and you guessed it, it’s your beloved SSPX. How awful. I have a good mind to send this to Cardinal Muller of the CDF with a letter saying that if these “illegals” are going to be admitted into the Church, they will have to renounce their…
belief that going to the OF is a sin.
Folks, it is these “illegals” of the Church who are not being nice, they belittle, they mock, they spew heresies such as this. Pray for the disobedient.
GROW UP, jon! I am certainly NOT one of those people you saw, in church! And by the way— YOU, TOO, are a FANATIC with YOUR material, just exactly like your church friend! FANATICS are DISOBEDIENT TO CHRIST!! They are BIGOTS to all they meet, who do not agree with them, viciously attacking them, calling them “sinners who should repent,” with plenty of fear-mongering, violence, and threats! That is NOT Christ’s religion, jon!
Bishop Morlino is going Ad Orientem at his cathedral in Madison Wisconsin, and he offers the TLM on a regular basis.
I read that, too! Let’s all move to Bishop Morlino’s diocese!
Just to clarify– the Latin Mass at SS Peter and Paul, is a Novus Ordo Mass. Churches today all vary, and sway with the wind, since Vatican II, as far as getting either faithful, orthodox priests, or liberal, unfaithful ones! Undependable! The Salesians have had a mix of both. Some have also been convicted of child sex molestation, tragically! (Wait until this parish, Star of the Sea, gets another pastor, and assistant priests! Everything will change!) SS Peter and Paul is a very beautiful church, anyway!
In my above post, about the fact that the Latin Mas at SS Peter and Paul is a Novus Ordo Mass— I meant to say, also, that the Tridentine Latin Mass at Star of the Sea, is not necessarily stable, and can change! The only way you can get a totally stable Mass like that– is to have a little church that is dedicated to just the old Latin Mass, with a religious order of priests to run it that way!
In today’s Church, there are many different communities, with their own Masses– Italian, Chinese, Vietnamese, Filipino, Spanish, French, etc. And for Byzantine Catholics, Charismatics, etc.– they all have their own groups, and their own Mass. Plus, my favorite– the Latin Tridentine Mass! I would like to join a little community, just for my favorite Mass, that shares my interest! I know there are others who feel the same way. I wish the Institute of Christ the King, in Oakland, could have their own little church! Or maybe, the FSSP could start a little church, here in the Bay Area! That would be wonderful! We still are all Catholics, but each has their own Mass, and that’s great! The Pope agrees!
Today, Sept 8th, is the feast of the Nativity of the Bl. Virgin Mary, just a reminder if anyone can attend Mass in whatever form today: According to Dom Gaspar Lefebvre, OSB, the liturgical tradition dates from at least the 500’s in the Eastern Church, and the written tradition (tho in the apocryphal scriptures) from the 2nd century.
Of course, today is the visible incarnation of the Bl. Virgin, 9 mos after her Immaculate Conception (Dec 8th), and according to Dom Lefebvre, it is intended to be a parallel of the Nativity of Our Lord, with an 8-day octave of commemoration. Part of the octave includes on Sept 12th, the feast of the Holy Name of Jesus (traditional calendar; eliminated in the new calendar), and then the recapitulation…
..of the octave on Sept. 15th, the memorial/feast of Our Lady of Sorrows, spread to the whole Church by the Servite Order in roughly the 1700’s.
If you have travelled through southern France, which is still fairly traditional, you may have seen statues of grape bunches on this date and the octave following, attached to the hands of the Bl Virgin Mary. I saw this and didn’t know what it meant at the time: Winegrowers bring the best grapes to “Our Lady of the Grape-Harvest” (“Notre-Dame de la récolte de raisin”), very Eucharistic and appropriate in relation to the liturgy.
Here is a famous painting of it you may have seen:
https://www.catholiccompany.com/getfed/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Pierre_Mignard_-_The_Virgin_of_the_Grapes_-_WGA15663.jpg
Corrrection, Sept 12th is Feast of the Holy Name of MARY, similar to the celebration of the Holy Name of Jesus on one of the Sundays after Dec 25th in the trad calendar.
In a post Sept 4th, jon alleged that [all] New Church supper-tables contain a martyrs’relic, and so Janek and St. C were judged as “disrespectful”. We have shown that assertion (altar relics “consecrating” the table)to be false.
So: Just today, at one of the very Catholic but New Church facilities I assist at as a lay volunteer, I decided to check the 2 chapels where daily N.O. Mass is held: yes, Bob One and jon the obscurantist , neither wood table has an altar-stone. I thought so, but again, the New Church and it’s adherents make rules they break routinely (cf. GIRM 302)
Our Church is over 2,000 years old. Today, there are still many people living, who were born and raised, in a totally different Church, long before Vatican II was ever dreamed of– including our current Pope, now in his eighth decade of life! He understands, that the older, pre-Conciliar church, was different, and run by different beliefs and rues. And he himself, sets aside many Church rules of all types, that he thinks are not good! He has a place in the Church– for BOTH kinds of Catholics! The Pope would NOT APPROVE of any Catholic of Vatican II, who USES RELIGION, to BULLY other devout Catholics, who love the old Latin Mass!
Legitimately there is only ONE KIND OF CATHOLIC: a faithful one, not a dissenting one. Not one who disrespects sacred items in the sanctuary, who mocks bishops, priests, and the Pope.
No, jon! there is NOT only “ONE” kind of Catholic— “jon’s kind!” the Pope would LAUGH at you! Today, we have many kinds of Catholics, all following Christ! Vatican II Catholics, with their Novus Ordo Mass, Charismatic Catholics, with their Charismatic Mass, Catholics of various nationalities, and kinds of Masses, Byzantine Catholics, Ukranian Catholics, Anglican Ordinariate Catholics, pre-Conciliar Roman Catholics—and so on. The Pope loves and accepts ALL!! Why can’t YOU? Vatican II is NOT in the Bible! You will NEVER get to Heaven, with your legalism, bigotry– and rude attacks on good church people! Throw away your legalism! Garbage!
And remember, jon– GROWN-UPS who LOVE CHRIST, but DISAGREE with the Pope and his bishops and priests, for VERY GOOD, INTELLIGENT REASONS — are GOOD CHRISTIANS, too! They are NOT ignorant, barbaric, lawless, diabolic, 1960s-style “hippie-liberal” dissenters! These good Catholics certainly do NOT “mock” the Pope and his clergy, and their ways– simply because they don’t agree with him! They are NOT “extreme, bigoted, legalistic, radicalized, zombie-like Catholic fascists,” with BAD MANNERS, like YOU, jon! These Catholics are all GOOD FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST!!
Vatican II Modernism, truly is the one that MOCKS Christ’s true Church, and honestly DISSENTS from it! Vatican II Modernism, is not truly 100% with Christ– it is UNFAITHFUL, in bed with the harlot of the world!
There are at least TWO great modern Saints– St. Padre Pio, and St. Mother Teresa– who disagreed with Vatican II– and TOLD THE POPE SO!! But they were NOT babyish “hippie dissenters,” nor immature, lawless, “radical social activists,” mocking the Church, like stupid, juvenile delinquent kids! These were GREAT SAINTS, of our Church!
“…Legitimately there is only ONE KIND OF CATHOLIC: a faithful one, not a dissenting one. Not one who disrespects sacred items in the sanctuary, who mocks bishops, priests, and the Pope.”
And so we are today in an age wherein clerics are unfaithful to the degree that the scandalized flock are forced to choose between supporting the Lord God or those ministers who, perhaps because of their position, believe themselves to be at liberty to do whatever they will without opposition.
But God is not mocked, jon. And that is why those who follow Him are forced, out of love of God, and even those misguided shepherds, to speak up against the outrage. So thank goodness that we are allowed, in conscience, to speak up against these…
Your conscience AMalley may have allowed you, but objectively you have committed a sin by your irreverence, disobedience, mocking of the ministers of the Lord. You have not proven a thing to support your allegations. NOTHING!
As for LMaria, sorry but you haven’t and cannot prove that Vatican II dissents from the perennial teachings of the Church. By believing this however you have committed a grave sin. You have disbelieved the dogma of the Church that the Holy Spirit guards the Church from error on matters of faith and morals. This is a sin against the Holy Spirit, which Our Lord says is unpardonable. No wonder you have hardened your heart. Your only liberation here is if your beloved SSPX were to accept any generous offer…
from the Holy See to be regularized. Other than that, I am afraid there may be many who may end their journey on this earth separated from Christ’s True Church.
jon, Our Lord called the Pharisees Whited Sepulchers and those who rejected Him, sons of the Devil.
Your “conscience” seems to preclude logic and the requisite duty to speak out clearly against error and the imposition of that which is deleterious to the Faith by way of false obedience.
Using capital letters and feigning that Linda Maria must prove that which is demonstrable in reading the actual documents and easily researched is no help to your cause of obfuscation.
You can shout down that we have not proven the sun provides heat, but you’ll be understood – despite your huffing – to be promoting the ridiculous. And that needs no capital letters on my part or proving. You prove as much with all your posts.
As for the SSPX,…
… you’ve really got a fixation. They have zero to do with the reality of Vatican II documents being what they are. Kind of like blaming your glasses for faulty vision. Rail all you’d like.
The reality is the Vatican II documents deviate from that which came before. So while you exalt the “generosity” of acknowledging the truth, others will just look to the truth and not wonder why it’s been obfuscated for so long.
Pride of place, compromise with the world, and the use of “obedience” as the vehicle to drive those who speak truth out of the proverbial temple. Read scripture, jon.
Ann Malley, doesn’t EVERY document “deviate” from what came before? That’s why people write documents. If all we had to do was reissue some prior document, that is what people would do. That’s what Bishops and Popes would do. The doctrines of the Church sometimes evolve, and sometimes, they need to be reinterpreted for the current age. That is exactly what Vatican II did. We didn’t get to 1962 without prior “deviations”, and we won’t stop “deviating” in the future, because every Church document has “deviated” from what came before it —- otherwise, an Ecumenical Council could just say “Please see the Council of Jerusalem”. Please see the Council of Nicea”.
jon, YOU are the one separated from Christ! NOT all the nice, sincere, devout Catholic posters, that you so viciously attack, all the time! You need to be CHRIST-LIKE, jon, to get into Heaven– with Faith like a humble, loving, trustful, innocent and pure child! Leave your vicious, bullying, egotistical legalism outside the church door! St. Peter won’t recognize you, nor give you a pass!
Because you and others here believe that going to the Ordinary Form is a sin, you are not being Christ-like, you are being disobedient, you are not nice to the millions of Catholics who love the sacraments of the Church, in particular the OF.
jon, just to be fair here, I don’t recall LM ever saying that going to an OF mass is a sin. I think she has said that people should go to whichever form they prefer.
jon, telling good, devout church-goers that they are committing a sin by going to a Mass– is stupid, immature, childish– RIDICULOUS!! It is also bigotry, and a sort of “HATE CRIME,” too! HORRIBLE beyond words! People who love and follow Jesus, would NEVER say such a terrible thing! YFC is 100% correct! I believe that everyone must go to the Mass they prefer! JESUS IS THERE, WAITING FOR US!! And if anyone is ever harassed over religion– DIAL 911, quick! I will continue…
I will continue! Remember that poor, elderly French priest, saying his Novus Ordo Mass in French, evilly attacked in the middle of his Mass, by ISIS fanatics, and murdered, for his religion?? A HORROR!! A HATE CRIME!! We Catholics MUST ALL STICK TOGETHER, IN CHRIST’S LOVE!! The only “Catholics” I believe are REALLY, TRULY COMMITTING SIN– are THOSE IN MORTAL SIN– like the BABY-KILLERS (abortion-believers and supporters)!! A HORROR– BEFORE GOD!!
This is well-documented in a devotional from SSPX called
“Christian Warfare”. In its Examination of Conscience it is considered a sin to go to the “New Mass.” And I suspect that LM and a few other folks here are admirers if not supporters of the SSPX. LMaria herself has admitted that she is.
As I wrote in a comment here (scroll up), I had attended a TLM recently. After Mass, a meek looking lady comes to me with a wide smile and meekly greets me and hands me a blue booklet called “Christian Warfare.” After chatting politely, I took it. Later that evening, I open the booklet to read the prayers, devotions, meditations, retreats there—all ok I thought. Then I get to the Examination of Conscience. It is considered sinful to go to the “New Mass.” It’s a mortal sin, judging from the obvious mortal sins listed there. I checked who the publisher is, and, voilá, it’s from the beloved SSPX.
As I said, I have a good mind to send this to Cardinal Muller asking him that these beloved SSPX be made to renounce this…
ridiculousness before being admitted back. You see YFC, the Church has its own problems with “illegals.” The Holy See has been trying to figure how to give them “amnesty.” It’s hilarious.
jon, I haven’t received one of those pamphlets, and although I have no doubt that they exist, I think you to give LM credit where it is due…if I am not mistaken, she has encouraged folks to go to whatever form of the mass they find speaks to them. I disagree with her on 90% of what she writes here, but she deserves to be treated honestely, as do we all, even if from time to time she does not offer us the same courtesy.
I beg to differ: Telling folks like LM bluntly that the organization they admire and advocate, namely their beloved SSPX, considers it sinful to go to the Ordinary Form is precisely how to deal with them HONESTLY! By advocating such outfits, they are therefore complicit in the disseminating of such falsehoods. There can be no equivocation with those who are hell-bent in their disobedience, for the good of their souls.
jon— I think Abp. Lefebvre was a simple, humble, loving, saintly man, who loved Christ best of all, and was a good catechist for Him, like Abp. Sheen! I know that big Churchmen have to write big things to deal with big Church issues, and defend their points of view. However, in real life– Abp. Lefebvre would NEVER be a petty, nasty, rude, mean prelate, telling you that you committed a big sin, attending your very normal, Novus Ordo Mass! Of course not! I will continue…
I wil continue… The church has an unfortunate, un-Christian way, down through the centuries—– of controlling her people, by means of what I would call, “un-Christian terrorist tactics.” Fear, threats, violence, etc. After Vatican II, the Church did as she most usually does– FORBADE the old Latin Mass, and demanded that all switch to the not-much-liked Vatican II Novus Ordo Mass, or be punished! Many elderly priests and prelates, (including Lefebvre) were punished, by excommunication, for loving the old Latin Mass, and desiring to say it! I always IGNORE this part of the Church! DUMB!
Beware, TLM’ers, jon the spy is scoping out your Masses—no doubt to report back to his controllers. Obviously he is overjoyed he found something he thinks he can report back to Cardinal Muller, with whom he is old buddies.
I will continue… I IGNORE CHURCH POLITICS — UN-CHRISTIAN, to me! Anyway, Abp. Lefebvre waited respectfully for the Pope (St. John Paul II) for permission to ordain four bishops, at his life’s end, to carry on his Society. He waited, but the Pope played “dirty Church politics,” hoping he might die– and no ordinations would occur! Lefebvre gave up, then, and did the ordinations– and they all got excommunicated! I think BOTH St. John Paul II AND Lefebvre (MARTYRED!) were BOTH SAINTS– but in earthly life, the Pope played a game of “DIRTY POLITICS!” That is my view!
I very much enjoy talking with SSPX priests, and greatly admire them! They are wonderful to talk to, and know a lot about religion! Never do they ever say mean, stupid things, or threaten anyone, or tell poor people they are committing a sin, by going to the Novus Ordo Masses, which is all most Catholics have available! They are well-mannered GENTLEMEN!! I’ve given them donations, for decades– but won’t join, until they join with Rome! Good Society to donate to– they make many fine priests– and nuns, too! Better than donating to many immoral causes, of our regular Church!
Bishop Williamson, one of the four bishops ordained by Lefebvre– got kicked out of the SSPX, due to his HORRIFIC public statements about the Jews. When I inquired about this, I was told, that no one knew previously about Williamson’s beliefs– and they were SHOCKED! Also, so far, there have been NO REPORTS of child sex molestations by (gay?) priests, in the Society– and no other crimes, either! They all are exactly alike, in their pre-Conciliar Catholic Faith– just as we once were, prior to Vatican II!! No such thing— as crazy, radical, immoral, liberal priests! BIG RELIEF!!!
LMaria, you go to these “illegal” chapels, you associate with these “illegal clergy”, you fund their operations, therefore you are very much complicit in their falsehoods, bias, and hatred. I will pray for them, but I would never support them financially nor would I encourage others in their disobedience, AS YOU DO HERE!
jon, you ought to spend your life being a good ambassador for Christ! The SSPX is VERY NORMAL!! It is certainly NOT a group of immature, violent, bigoted, childish, radical lunatics, as you ignorantly describe! All they do– is run a little church, exactly as our Catholic ancestors– and THAT’S ALL!! PERIOD!! When the Pope goes to meet good prelates of churches not in communion with Rome– Russian, Greek, or Armenian Orthodox, etc.– he always displays GOOD MANNERS, with Christ’s LOVE and GOOD-WILL!! Can’t YOU do likewise?? ALL of these churches are GOOD!!
I grew up in a small mountain town, similar to San Francisco, in which the Serbian Orthodox Church and culture dominated. We were one of the few families, that didn’t have a Slavic surname— similar to Russian surnames. The Serbian Orthodox Church is not in union with Rome, but has many similarities to the Roman Catholic Church. The Serbs didn’t have the reserved Blessed Sacrament–and so, they often would sneak into a Catholic church, anonymously and quietly– for Eucharistic Adoration– which they really liked! No one cared. We all got along very well!
It can be sinful to do that which erodes one’s faith or gives them untold scandal, jon. So while you huff and fume that we must all file in to the “authorized” rite of mass confusion and abuses, others will do their duty and risk being smeared by you.
Our Lord said that there would come a day when those who believe themselves to be doing God’s work will cast those who follow Him out of the temple.
So thank you for your rage and blindness. It serves a purpose. As for you supporting Society chapels, you do so with every post you make here, by illustrating the danger of what one can fall into by swallowing everything because one is blinded by a collar.
There is NOTHING in the Ordinary Form in principle that “erodes one’s faith or gives people untold scandal.” Your point is an obvious BUNK! To say what you just said violates the Lateran Council for no one must denigrate the sacraments of the Church as the Council taught. No wonder your beloved SSPX is outside the visible boundaries of the Church!
1) The Church isn’t over 2,000 years old.
2) “Vatican II Modernism” is a nonsensical babyish jibberish mockery that has ZERO meaning.
3) If you say that Vatican II ” is not truly 100% with Christ —it is UNFAITHFUL, in bed with the harlot of the world” then you are a heretic and a blasphemer.
No, YFC!! You are just upset all the time, with other posters, for some reason, known only to yourself– and like to make crazy replies! The whole reason for the Pope calling for Vatican II, is “aggiornamento” or– “modernization, updating!” The modern world is extremely Godless, non-religious– and secularized– and the Pope also called for “opening the doors and windows of the Church to the (modern) world” (thus, “letting in the smoke of Satan,” as the Pope also said!!) NOT A VERY CHRIST-LIKE CHURCH, is the result! And YES– our Church is over 2,000 years old, dating from the time of Christ’s birth! Everyone knows that, even atheists!
I’m upset all the time, LM, really? You crack me up. You are the one who constantly rants at vast swaths of other people, as you continue to do Sept 10 8:11 PM. I just point out how ridiculous some of the posts are.
Take the age of the Church. “You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church”. A statement in the future tense. Jesus might have been born as early as 6 BC, and began ministry no earlier than 30 years old. 24 + 2000 = 2024. If the Church was founded at the Pentacost, and Christ was born as late as 3 BC, the date would be 2030.
And modernization has nothing to do with modernism. Perhaps you might want to research what “modernism” actually means.
But I’m just crazy, right?
YFC– why waste your words?? Everyone knows, that the Church is more or less about 2,000 years old! Why waste time, attacking something so silly? And YES– “MODERNISM” is quite a problem to deal with, since it began, in the late 19th century! It has done a lot of damage to the world, in every field! Philosophy, religion, education, art, music, literature, architecture— and really, our whole way of life has been quite damaged, dehumanized, secularized, robbed of Christ and good family and religious values, everywhere! I am certainly NOT your target, YFC!!
YFC– many good Catholics feel that their Church has been robbed in many ways, of her sacred character— and that is why they are upset, and critical of the Council, which tried to destroy the old Church, and make a new, modern one, in its place. Quite shocking to many! Plus, time-honored, beautiful, truthful Catholic teachings, traditions, and virtues, are often ignored, or ridiculed, in today’s Church– while un-Christian, Christ-denying, secular, pagan concepts, that are full of vices ad sins– are often accepted passively, or eve promoted! Very upsetting and discouraging!
Linda maria – WRONG. If you are so careless with simple facts, why should we trust you with more complicated issues? If you can’t even count the number of years that have passed, why should we trust you with more important matters? Why waste YOUR OWN WORDS, LM, and in fact, why not just admit that you were wrong and apologize for them?
The Church is not more than 2000 years old, and modernism is not the same thing as modernization. If you care to look up what “modernism” actually means, then we can have a discussion about that. Until them, you are still left holding the bag explaining how a Church that is not 2000 years old is, by your rendering, over 2000 years old.
A few years, a few letters, mean a whole lot for those who care…
Don’t be silly– Fellow Catholic– let’s be friends!
You know, LM, I really think you dont understand what “modernism”means. Honestly, I’m not trying to be picky, I just think you don’t understand the term. Someone put a bee in your bonnet and you spit out “modernism”. What I think most conservatives on this site and other places, and not a small number of quite liberal members of the Church, actually find disturbing, is post-modernism.
Go research the two, and come back to us with what you find.
YFC, it is a waste of time, to answer your silliness!
Linda maria, I am glad you are amused. It’s too bad that you are also wrong.
You’re blinded by the dazzle of pastoral, YFC. Sorry, but what isn’t binding isn’t binding. And that which scatters – namely the novel schlock that encourages Catholics to blind themselves to the drips of poison (albeit intended supposedly to help foment unity) – is not of God.
That said, YFC, you’re wrong on so many counts. But again, your posts here work as an advertisement for those groups you hate. Thanks ;^)
Once again, Ann Malley offers vapid criticism without specifics or evidence.
YFC– once again– just be a good Catholic, and don’t be so silly! Why not JOIN with your fellow Catholics– instead of ATTACKING them so senselessly? What have you got to lose? We can all support each other, in Christ!