The following comes from a May 29 posting on Father Z’s (Fr. John Zuhlsdorf) blog.
Recently there was a news item about some Italian bishops griping (that’s not news) to Pope Francis (ditto) about Summorum Pontificum (as before). They think it should be extirpated (more of the same). Francis shot them down. That’s news.
I am having days filled with museums at the moment, and therefore living on my computer is low on my list. However, my friend Fr. Tim Finigan, His Hermeneuticalness, has the low down. Let’s see what clever analysis he offers (my emphases and comments):
The Bishops of the region of Tavoliere met recently with Pope Francis on an ad limina visit. On their return home, one has given a fascinating glimpse of the attitude of Pope Francis to those who are seeking to use the opportunity of his papacy to attack the traditional Mass. This is reported in the Italian paper Il Foglio, in the article: La messa antica non si tocca, il Papa gesuita spiazza ancora tutti (“The old mass is not to be touched, the Jesuit Pope wrong-foots everyone” [spiazza… floors, shocks])
Here is [Fr Finigan’s] translation of the relevant part of the article which tells of other bishops raising concerns with the Holy Father and goes on to speak of the intervention concerning the old Mass:
Then it was the turn of the bishop of Conversano and Monopoli, Domenico Padovano, who recounted to the clergy of his diocese how the priority [what a sad group of men] of the bishops of the region of Tavoliere had been that of explaining to the Pope that the mass in the old rite was creating great divisions within the Church. The underlying message: Summorum Pontificum should be cancelled, or at least strongly limited. But Francis said no.
Mgr Padovano explained that Francis replied to them saying that they should be vigilant over the extremism of certain traditionalist groups but also suggesting that they should treasure tradition and create the necessary conditions so that tradition might be able to live alongside innovation. [Right. And we could even have a document that says that! It could be called… how ’bout… Ecclesia Dei adflicta? In it the Pope could command by his Apostolic authority that bishops do that.] This is not really a surprise (did anyone expect that Pope Francis would somehow “repeal” Summorum Pontificum? [Apparently those bishops did.]) but it is a welcome confirmation of what we would all expect.
One thing that jumps out of the story is that the bishops of this region judged that their main pastoral priority – to be communicated to the Pope on a five-yearly visit – was to attack Summorum Pontificum. [“priority”] Forget abortion, embryo experimentation, the push for same-sex marriage throughout Europe, the loss of faith of many Catholics and our failure in catechesis and evangelisation. No, the really big problem is a small number of priests legitimately saying the old Mass. [small but growing, especially as the Biological Solution kicks into gear] Given what Pope Francis has said about the danger of being a self-referential Church, I can well imagine he gave them short shrift. [Good insight.]
To read original blog, click here.
The liberal clergy and laity who were infected with the disease of modernism, continue to war against the TLM…why?…the devil hates the TLM…every time it is celebrated he roar’s his displeasure! Modernism is HERESY, it was condemned by Pope Pius the X in 1910…and newly ordained priest’s were instructed in taking the “oath of anti-modernism”, which they took, just prior to ordination!
The TLM region grew plenty modernists, and there is no reason to believe they all exited and went into the novus ordo throngs.
By “the TLM grew … modernists”, this is poor phrasing. The TLM did not itself grow modernist, but it is that as Jesus was rebelled against, so the TLM was rebelled against. Some of those rebels continue in the TLM crowds. The devil will attack everywhere on earth.
It would be interesting to see how many of those now bishops ordained under the Tridentine Rite did so with their fingers, or legs, or whatever crossed in defiance!
One of the reasons I went back was I could not understand how men who supposedly were joyfully ordained could hate the Mass they were ordained for so much!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Well, if you ever needed confirmation that the Holy Father is guided by the Holy Ghost, you have it here.
It sounds as if our good Holy Father has it just about right.
I’d call it shepherding.
The thing that jumped out at me was that Pope Francis did not question at all that people who are attending the “Old Mass” are trying to cause division in the Church and that he told them to be vigilant against extremism. Many of his homilies have seemed to me to be directed to faithful Catholics and their purification.
The Pope was talking about extremists, not about the character of those who prefer the TLM. Anonymous, did you work for a major media company in your past life?
“Mgr Padovano explained that Francis replied to them saying that they should be vigilant over the extremism of certain traditionalist groups..”
And precisely what does the Pope mean by using the word ‘extremism’ in relation to tradition and traditionalists? Perhaps the same thing the U.S. Army Reserves’ recent training material means? (Along with the “assistance” of the Southern Poverty Law Center, natch.)
The TLM is the most beautiful thing this side of Heaven. When I was first ordained a priest, I only knew how to celebrate the Novus Ordo. Only until I was re-introduced to the TLM did I realize how much the two forms of Mass differed. This past weekend, Trinity Sunday, I celebrated both forms., while helping out a priest friend. The way the people behave before, during and after the Mass says a great deal about what they believe. Even though this parish is fairly conservative, with a very holy, pious and good priest, the people attending the Novus Ordo behave just like Protestants who just finished attending a worship service at their Reformation founded churches. The behavior of those who attended the TLM was totally different, The people are in awe at what happens at the Mass. The celestial singing by the choir and the magnificent chanting of the Gregorian propers lifts the congregation to the gates of Heaven. Unfortunately, the average Novus Ordo Mass, because it is man centered and not God-centered is all about US getting along with everyone. Because of the Protestant influence of the Novus Ordo, the new Mass is a social gathering, which eventually leads to heresy and the leaving of Holy Mother Church to pentecostal and other apostate churches. The main reason why bishops hate the TLM is because it proves their new theology totally wrong. How you pray is what you believe, and therefore, most Novus Ordo Catholics believe in nothing. Protestantism DOES lead to atheism, since it was founded by men. Only the Catholic Church was founded by God. To abandon the rich tradition which was hers for many years has been a terrible error which has done much damage to the Catholic Church. By keeping the TLM as a treasure to be appreciated and honored will be one of the ways the Church can be renewed and restored.
Father Karl you have stated the truth perfectly!
Janet you are correct..Father Karl’s comments are definitely done in truth. God bless Him!
The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the Sacrifice of Calvary made present, is not man-centered. It is not about getting along with everyone. It is not a social gathering. It does not lead to heresy. What you have said is serious error. I don’t blame your errors on the Extraordinary Form of the Latin Rite. You have insulted the Holy Spirit. There is no such thing as a Novus Ordo Catholic. Catholics obey with docility and humility and attend Catholic Mass because Christ wills them too.
You have obviously never been to an Extraordinary Form of the Mass, if you don’t think the Ordinary Form of the mass is man centered (the priest has his back to Blessed Sacrament!!!!) you don’t know what you are what you are talking about…
It used to be all there was, young one. The Ordinary Form of the Mass is a prayer to God. Just like the Extraordinary Form.
Yes and thank God for Pope JP 2 and Pope Benedict XVI who liberated the old mass from the clutches of the modernist…..
Yes we do thank God for them and for that and all the blessings he gave to them and all their merits. And for all His blessings to the Church and the faithful through them.
Then why does the ordinary form have everyone looking at each other and talking to each other? And why is it that the OF I’ve attended always have really cheap and offensive and sometimes whorish perfume women waddling around? Why have there been young men in tutus prancing around the altar … well, he wore some kind of flitting garment if not a tutu. What about the clown suits worn by some priests during the prayer to God that you call the OF Mass? What about OF bishops giving Holy Communion to flagrant sodomists all costumed up to look like hideous nuns from a nightmare? What about all the distorting and derangement of the prayers and the utterly foul homilies that have been reported? Can you justify this, Anonymous?
Liturgical abuse is never justified, Skai, because it degrades something that is holy. You are verbally degrading something that is holy. You offend God by doing this.
Canisius, you are correct that there are a few churches left where the priest has his back to the Blessed Sacrament. However, the practice where I live is to have moved the Blessed Sacrament to a side altar and for the priest chair to be placed where the tabernacle used to be! To state it more clearly, man has literally taken the place of Jesus!
One wonders how bad the recent scandals would have been had the priests still been required to say “The Prayers at the Foot of the Altar”!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
The novus ordo is slowly being phased out, just like its cousins the protestant denominations. Protestantism is often more similar to Islam or Budhism or Hinduism than Catholicism. The novus ordo moves Catholicism up closer to these pagan religions. As for man centered worship, the novus ordo is structured more like a rock concert than anything else, which is similar to a protestant service in its structure, where it consists of speakers or performers and the audience. The TLM is not structured like this. Its structure was likely a careful thing so as to both differentiate it from the pagan cult practices and also to show and demonstrate a focus on God. The TLM is focused on the Holy Eucharist and not on the priest and company and or fellow pew inhabitants as is the novus ordo.
If you refuse to exercise what is known as “discernment of spirits”, you fall short of fulfilling your walk towards Heaven. If you mock it, then your inspiration is not from God.
Moreover, St John in one of his letters tells us that … and this was written at the beginning of Christendom … there are many anti-Christs running amok.
Skai, I believe you are exactly right when you say, If you refuse to exercise what is known as “discernment of spirits”, you fall short of fulfilling your walk towards Heaven. If you mock it, then your inspiration is not from God.”
Why do you believe this quote applies to straight people and not to gay people? Those of us who endeavor to live a Christian life attempt to discern spirits every day. And for most of us, to turn away from being gay is, to us, a mockery of the Spirit. Truly. This is our experience.
YFC, here you go and applaud me for advocating “discernment of spirits”, and then you say how you daily “try” to discern spirits … but you somehow see the two things as the same. You see “trying” as the same as “doing”. No, Jesus does not say to try to discern spirits, but He says to discern them. Same with turning away from sin. Jesus does not command us to try to turn from sin, but He commands us to turn from sin. This point has be gone over on this site several times in the past. PA, never could come to terms with the difference. Perhaps you can, perhaps you never will.
YFC, we understand that to gays who believe that God made them gay and wants them to be gay … well, who told you God made you gay? See my point? You do not know who your father is. Refer to the Gospel accounts of Jesus explaining this very point to the religious leaders who took it upon themselves to rig the laws to their benefit and away from God’s will. There is nowhere in magisterium that supports you claim; only in relativist writings, albeit Church writings, can you even come up with anything to work up such a claim.
Skai you bring up excellent points here. I pray with love that YFC will embrace. May God have mercy on him. If homosexuals believe the lie that God made them that way, then how can they discern spirits, then how can anyone if he is believing in another god. There is only one God. If homosexuals live the lie that God made them that way, then they are following a false god.
God have mercy on us all and forgive us for following deception. God help us and may St. Michael the Archangel defend us against these evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking to ruin souls!
Do you know what discernment of spirits is?
Yes, Anonymous … knowing the difference between Jack Daniels and Wild Turkey.
I am sure you have much more knowledge, understanding and discernment in that area than I have.
Yes, Anonymous, and I’ve smoked more cigars than you also, I can tell. But let’s get down to the real nitty gritty: Are you now, or have you ever been … comfortable? Do you feel like lukewarm water much of the time?
You’re right on that one. I have notice that people on this website don’t seem to know the meaning of the word “lukewarm” as it applies to the spiritual life. So I assume you just mean that I’m not passionate enough about getting rid of those gays.
I am totally convinced that the same evil spirit that had me believing the lie that God wouldn’t have made the sexual appetite so strong if it was a sin to exercise it even if one was single is the same EVIL spirit that convinces sodomites (God’s terminology) that He made them that way and that as YFC so blatantly wants to profess: ” to turn away from being gay is, to us, a mockery of the Spirit” and that so called YFC is blasphemy!
May God have mercy on your poor soul,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Anonymous your comments first come off as sincere then you throw off a bomb like you did with that comment of yours “I’m not passionate enough about getting rid of those gays.”. Truly you do not know or see when you have a Christian amongst you for you have greatly insulted goodness. It must be miserable having your point of view. I can not understand you. Why do you mix in weeds with the good. Time to remove the weeds out of your analogies and keep it pure in Christ, as least ask our Lord. He the most beautiful fragrance of love, if we look In His eye’s, and that is if we can handle looking in His eye’s, because we are sinners, His purity, goodness, truth can be intimidating to our own sinfulness. But if we seek to turn away from sin, then looking in His eye’s will be something we look forward to. Fear and pride are usually what slows us down.
“And hospitality do not forget; for by this some, being not aware of it, have entertained angels. ” Hebrews 13:2
apparently the x in the name black erases your name. Never seen that before.
Why were SIX Protest-ant ministers allowed to help two masonic bishops to de-construct our Holy Mass? Answer that if you can!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Mr. Fisher, it no longer matters. Both Forms of the Mass are Holy our Popes have spoken.
You are a Novus Ordonarian.
There is no such thing. Are you a schismatic?
Anonymous you just given Janet another reason for loving the TLM mass more…you are definitely uncharitable to her!
Abeca Christian, asking a question is uncharitable? There are schismatics who post here. There are people who attend licit EF Masses who may have been influenced by writings on the internet about the TLM that were written by schismatics. If you are unaware of the situation concerning the Latin Mass and its proponents, if could see why might misinterpret my question. I am glad if Janek loves the TLM. There is nothing wrong with that. Hating the ordinary form is sinful. There are people who have left the Church and have caused doubt and have led people astray.
Anonymous how do you really know that they are what you say? Do you think she has left the church? I guess maybe the name calling from Janet’s comments were not necessary. I don’t even know what that word means to be frank. You could of maybe asked a different question, one that can help bring us together not bring division. Can you let me know what category you place yourself in first? Correct thyself first, I know that when I reflect on myself the more, I have less reasons to harp about those who are more traditional.
I’m glad that you like her taste for the TLM. But if you recall and from what I learned from many, that when the changes occurred it brought scandal due to many abuses and lack of true Cate-queses. What we need to do is not cause division. All this division amongst the TLM and NO mass is truly heart breaking for me. The name calling, I have never heard it before until on came on here to this website. So its how you asked the question, do you expect that Janet will talk to you? What are you really hoping to accomplish? As far as I am concerned, I feel that those who love the TLM have seniority and deserve the love and respect for trying to preserve the beautiful mass. Yes I have had my issues with some of those who attend the TLM, so I just pray for them and keep away from them. It’s a pity but same goes for the NO attendee’s, probably more issues there too, they do their share of attacking those who hold to traditions. and it can be more ugly because of their lack of knowing the wholeness of the truth n faith. But that is all irrelevant, our Lord is in the Mass, no matter which one. He is with us.
Its the suffering that one endures here on earth before we go that will humble us, not the self righteousness.
abeca, I’m a Catholic. You are correct that I should have asked the question differently. Asking if they are a traditional Catholic would be silly, because it is obvious that they are. So instead of asking if they are a schismatic (which is someone who considers themselves Catholic but refuses submission to the Pope or to be joined with the Church under the Pope), I probably should have asked if they attend an approved TLM Mass. However, the point in my asking is this-if they have made the decision to worship at one of the Traditional Masses that are not approved by the Church, it will be very understandable why they would call me a Novus Ordinarian. Even if they attend an approved Mass, they might call me that because they have a disdain for the Ordinary Form of the Mass. They may have read or heard things that are not true. Some who attend the TLM would never attend an illicit Mass. They would go to an OF Mass if they had to. Some would stay home. I was just wondering where this person was at when they called me that.
Nice theorizing, Anonymous, but you’re leaving out the reality of how it plays out. Jesus is all about reality, and not glitz or nutter ideas.
Anonymous, it seems to me that you are always attempting to start a fight. I suggest you listen to Father and apply the energy you have to understanding the Faith and History. Did those who believed have liturgical dance at Calvary or was it those who nailed our Lord to the Cross rejoice ? God Bless Father Karl and we must pray for anonymous.
Our Most Blessed Mother knew what the Crucifixion was for, the salvation of mankind; yet can anyone in their right mind even imagine her dancing at the foot of the Cross?
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
How can we pray for anonymous, Joe? How will God know which anonymous we mean? It’s so easy to come up with a simple name…even John Doe or Smokey would do. What’s in a name? Everything! That’s why Jesus had about a hundred of them…Emmanuel, Son of Man, Prince of Peace, and on and on. That’s why the first job Adam had was giving everything a name. :o) I hereby confer a new name to anonymous…
‘He who shall remain nameless” . A little long perhaps, but fitting.
Father Karl is right. Thank you for your service to the Catholic Church.
God Bless you Father Karl!
It is refreshing to know that we have a young priest within our Church who recognizes and respects the Truth when he sees it. Thank you for sharing your observations. My prayers are with you.
Wow, Fr. Karl, just wow.
I amazed at your need to validate the superiority of the Catholic Church when you state, “Protestantism DOES lead to atheism, since it was founded by men. Only the Catholic Church was founded by God.”
How does this quote square with Papal efforts at ecumenicism and the recent statement by Pope Francis that he believes atheists who consistently perform good works will go to Heaven? What of the Catholic teaching that reason leads to God and all of mankind is endowed by God with an intuitive sense of natural law? If those things are true, then a person of good faith seeking God will receive some measure of Grace. Thus, Protestantism does not necessarily lead to atheism—unless you are willing to assert that no one who professes Protestant beliefs can seek God in good faith.
Your argument here is simply a result-oriented rationalization whose aim is to establish that Catholicism is vastly superior to any other form of Christianity. Why not spend more time seeking God rather than trying to establish your chosen religion as superior? One might think you are more concerned with pushing yourself up the scale of worldly status vis a vis Protestants than helping others.
This sort of pathetic chest beating is very unbecoming the dignity of your office.
Not surprising the modernists hate the TLM. They are inebriated with the “Spirit of Vatican II”, and love the protestant inspired New Mass, with its endless novelties and options. It is largely because of the introduction of the Novus Ordo that the Church has suffered through schism and division. Let us pray for the restoration of the TLM as the Ordinary Form of the Latin Rite. +JMJ+
The novus ordo liturgy is infiltrated with Calvinism, which scatters the adherents into different cliques. These become dominant, in contradistinction from the TLM, which has “cults” but none of these is dominant over the whole Church.
The Holy Spirit is not a Calvinist.
You are, Anonymous. Calvinism has infected the Church, and runs largely among the novus ordo crowds. You do not even recognize it, but you clamor for it.
BTW, “God is all things to all men” (St Paul as I recall). So, to a Calvinist, God would be a Calvinist.
Bless your heart padre…if only we had more clerics who felt like you…it’s interesting that many of the older priest’s are modernist’s, while the younger priest’s embrace the Tridentine rite with greater zeal…Praise be Jesus Christ
Is not so young! Very devout but more upper middle age.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
That is still young…. : )
And yes by the way, Satan fears the Traditional Latin Mass and the Latin language most of all, the TLM is very powerful against the forces of Hell.
If Satan fears the Latin language, why does he always use it in excorcism movies?
It seems like every time you read about a possessed person, they suddenly become fluent speakers of Latin!
It’s not him; it’s really just an actor.
What, inside information?
If the demons in an exorcism REALLY wanted to scare the priests and others, they would use a frightening language like Dutch — all those gutturals, you know.
“Dutch”, Michael?!! Try Transylvanian if you want a scary language, but Dutch?!! For your penance, walk a mile in a pair of wooden shoes.
You guys are funny
What about the guy in the wheelchair last week, Michael? He wasn’t speaking at all. Pope Francis did the speaking … it is reported to have been an exorcism.
Michael, why don’t you look into why the Church adopted Latin as her primary language? Get back to us with what you find out.
It is feared, Michael, due to its long history of exclusive use by exorcists. The Church built up a considerably potent spiritual discipline over many centuries, and the devil took note. You can kind of get the flavor of it by listening to “Devil Went Down to Georgia” by the Charlie Daniels Band.
Holiness is where the power and authority of God reside. BTW, the Latin language developed from a lot of other languages, right? What, then, makes it holy in itself? What makes any Mass holy in itself? Is a manuscript of the Latin Mass a holy thing, or simply a set of instructions?
All of us must acknowledge that both Forms of the Mass are Holy – with the Body and Blood of Christ, Our Lord.
Both forms of the Mass must be prayed reverently and accurately.
The Ordinary Form must be prayed according to GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal), and the Extraordinary Form must be prayed according to the 1962 Roman Missal. No Priest or Bishop has the authority to change this or to be “creative”. We each have an obligation to report abuses.
There should never be any division about the two Forms of the Mass. There should be no issues. Anyone who speaks badly about either Form is sinning.
We should encourage both Forms within our own Parish/Diocese. There is room within Christ’s Church for all of us.
(GIRM can be found on the Vatican and USCCB web sites.
The ” Letter of His Holiness Benedict XVI to the Bishops on the Occasion of the publication of the APOSTOLIC LETTER “MOTU PROPRIO DATA”
SUMMORUM PONTIFICUM on the use of the Roman Liturgy prior to the reform of 1970 ” can be found on the Vatican web site.)
Forms are not nor can be holy, Michael. Content is what gives holiness to anything. It is the holy sacrifice of the Mass that consecrates the altar. Jesus gives holiness. So becoming holy means becoming Jesus. “Anyone who speaks badly about either Form is sinning”: This is a crock.
Skai, you are a schismatic (and potentially a heretic), because you twist the words of others. You make statements without quoting your sources as well – which makes them personal opinions or potentially misquotes.
Jesus is present in both Forms of the Mass. Both forms are Holy. You can not have the “Real Presence” without the Mass (either Form).
CCC: ” 1382 The Mass is at the same time, and inseparably, the sacrificial memorial in which the sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated and the sacred banquet of communion with the Lord’s body and blood. But the celebration of the Eucharistic sacrifice is wholly directed toward the intimate union of the faithful with Christ through communion. To receive communion is to receive Christ himself who has offered himself for us.”
Why did St. Catherine Emmerich lament that there would be a time when the “Last Gospel of St. John” would no longer be recited at the end of the Mass, and it will be a time of great troubles in the Church?
Why did St. Padre Pio lament the ending of the “Prayers to St. Michael” as well?
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Perhaps Pope Francis will restore the St.Michael’s Prayer, Kenneth? He certainly understands the nature of evil. I just saw the movie about Padre Pio and it was so moving. I thought his interpretation of the vicious black dog pursuing him as a child was odd though. Being a saint though means that his understanding of it was correct.
You are wrong Skai, both forms of the Mass can be HOLY, or can be disrespectful (illicit).
The Church according to Skai has got to stop. Start providing documentation – where we can find your mis-quotes in the Bible or Church documents.
You misquote on a regular basis.
Speaking against the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is blasphemy.
In addition, speaking against either Form of the Mass is a sin against UNITY within the Church.
CCC: ” 791 The body’s unity does not do away with the diversity of its members: “In the building up of Christ’s Body there is engaged a diversity of members and functions. There is only one Spirit who, according to his own richness and the needs of the ministries, gives his different gifts for the welfare of the Church.” The unity of the Mystical Body produces and stimulates charity among the faithful: “From this it follows that if one member suffers anything, all the members suffer with him,
and if one member is honored, all the members together rejoice.”
Finally, the unity of the Mystical Body triumphs over all human divisions: “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. ”
Although you take every opportunity to bad mouth the CCC, and other Church documents, it is clear that you have NEVER read them. You may think you know everything, but you do not.
Thank u sam
For the record, Anonymous, Father never maligned the Holy Spirit. Vatican II and the council fathers never wanted such radical changes made to the Mass. It was Archbishop Bugnini a reported Mason, and the several Protestant advisers who were greatly responsible for the Novus Ordo , and the fact that the new Mass would NOT be antagonistic to Protestants.Cardinal Ottavini was so scandalized by the Novus Ordo in Latin, that he had Pope Paul VI make several changes (the First Eucharistic prayer was re-inserted, and an Offertory put in). These are historical facts, which the liberals cannot deny. Ave Maria Purrissima!
Are you a sedevacantist? Where do you guys get this stuff? Not from any authoritative Catholic source. Stick with the Holy Catholic Church and her official teachings.
“Stick with the Holy Catholic Church and her official teachings.” Easier said than done, Anonymous. But you’ll have to prepare yourself by doing a lot of foundational study, so hopefully you can understand what the Church teaches. The mistake you make is common, and consists of trying to impose your preconceptions onto Church documents. That is like trying to pound a square peg into a round hole … in your case you don’t use force but rather just tell people the pegs are in place, even though it is obvious that they’re scattered all over the place and none is in a hole.
Watch it with the label anonymous, having questions or knowing history doesn’t make u a sedevacantist. I’m assuming she was referring to the documentary “weapons of mass destruction”=] watch it! U won’t magically turn into a heretic.
Pax et bonum
dan, it was not a label; it was an honest question. I am not accusing or insulting. I care about people and about the truth. So you are saying that this is taught in the “Weapons of Mass Destruction” video. I will look at it. Then I will want to know where Michael Voris got it.
Try reading the “Ottaviani Interventions”. By the way Cardinal Ottaviani was the Head of the Holy Office, now called the “Office for the Propagation of the Faith!
Why won’t you answer my questions about the makeup of the Commission that changed our Mass? Even Fr. Karl has alluded to it as well. I assure you that you will have to go a long way to even come close to the knowledge of Fr. Karl on the Church.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
I will not risk my salvation on an internet voice. I’ll stick with God.
God bless you back.
What will we say to our youth today that their mass is not valid or that Jesus is not there? Can we truly be that crazy to destroy their faith with all this division? It was my own innocence that saved me from being so judgmental of this mass that I grew up in. When I completed my first confession I felt a load that lifted off of a me, I know I felt the presence of the Holy Ghost. I didn’t know back then that there was TLM, I only knew what people call the NO mass.
Are we forgetting our Lord’s humility? Does not one believe that He is merciful and lives through the eye’s of those who love Him? Same goes for the TLM, when I discovered this mass, my love of faith grew to another level. I was open to it. That is all it took but that does not mean that I do not love my reverent NO Mass any less or more. Now I respect that there may be a preference that many choose to attend, that is fine.
Our Lord is there in the Holy Eucharist. Humble and waiting for me to worship Him, the only sadness I have is the abuses that mostly happen in the NO Mass but our Lord is still there, taking on the suffering for them. Just like His lay Faithful who are loyal to the TLM, they too suffer as he suffers but I hope that they too approach it with His humility as He is setting that beautiful example to us. Let us not fret what we can’t control but let us spread with love what we can that is His.
Those bishops who wish to get rid of the TLM, they are doing an injustice and it is them who provoke the faithful to bitterness and hurt, they are not doing God’s will, they need to stop their self righteousness and drop down to the floor and beg God for His forgiveness for not feeding Christ’s sheep as Christ’s humbly keeps asking them to do so.
dan, I’m watching the video. I am seeing where Michael Voris got it and it sometimes from schismatics. Also, a lot of the things are not checking out. Even Voris himself stresses IF Bugnini was a Mason-which there is no evidence that he was and even Voris says Bugnini denied it to his death. He uses a false quote from Bugnini that says we need to strip everything from our Catholic Prayers and Liturgy that would be a stumbling block to the Protestants. The real quote has been posted on line. It does not say that. It is a misquotation from something Bugnini said about the 7th intercession of the Good Friday Mass. This is why I ask people if they are schismatic or sedevacantist. Some people are committed to the idea that the Catholic Church is no longer the Catholic Church. Other people are committed Catholics who have been misled by others who have been misled. He talks about the piriti at Vatican II and how much power they had. Joseph Ratzinger was one of the piriti. Did you read what he said about it in February of this year?
Perhaps if you did some research you would discover what Jesusita is stating is correct
“Where do you guys get this stuff?” Very good question, Anonymous, especially for someone as omniscient as yourself.
I will leave to whatever religion your free will wishes to follow. I am Catholic.
Jesusita, I am researching and here is what I found. Bugnini was accused of being a Mason by a supporter of Archbishop Lebfrevre. There has never been any evidence of it being true. Bugnini died in 1982. Up until 1983, masonry was punishable with excommunication. Bugnini was never ex-communicated. Lebfevre was.
It just struck me as funny that the someone who chose the peace-loving name of “Francis” as Pope would he headlined as “shooting down” anyone!
I know what the headline means, but the violent phrase is a bit hilarious.
Parents correct their children, and properly so, but I don’t think they’d be accused of “shooting them down.”
Jesus shot down the money changers in the temple by using a whip on them, and violently throwing their table and chairs over. St Peter shot down a man by cutting off his ear with a sword. God’s Law, and remember that Jesus always exists, shot down countless sinners by having them stoned to death or filled with arrows, spears, sword slicing, hammer blows, etc. Think St Michael who wields force against the devil.
Okay, somebody’s been taking too many testosterone injections lately…
Guess we’ll have to change Jesus’ name from the “Prince of Peace” to something more NRA-friendly…
Michael do we need to put you on the back of the class for bad behavior??
Jesus had the normal healthy level of testosterone, Michael. He was not a wimp or a poltiically correct cow down as the bureaucracy and money changers try to make believe. He whipped men and threw their vending tables over, yelling and shouting at them. He called religious leaders “sons of the devil, whose father was a liar from the beginning”. But, of course, Michael doesn’t want to get dust on his lace coat cuffs or saliva on his cravat. No, Michael, just stay out of the Gospel fray and you’ll be ok, for a time at least.
Michael, no meds, no injections, no stuff like that. In fact my friends tell me I need to eat more meat, and I tell them I’d like to but don’t always have the time to do so. Beer and popcorn works, though. But, Michael, I do see your point … just as you do, neither do I know why I generate what I generate. But so far my posts have not been proven to be opposed to Catholic doctrine … so what are you going to do about it? Consider St John the Baptist, in that Jesus labeled him as the greatest among me … and, Michael, John the Baptist pretty much got down and in their faces with the hell fire and brimstone number, don’t you think? Wasn’t it Jesus who said something about people who get too comfortable … aka “smug”, as the common folk label the hypocrites?
You would do well to lay off the beer.
Beer and popcorn explains it all, Skai.
Perhaps alcohol is why you generate some (but not all) error and believe it is truth. and why you ATTACK people so often even when they are correct. This is not from God. The devil mixes truth with fiction.
Step back, stop drinking and Pray. Read the Bible and the CCC, and then come back to post TRUTH.
Sam, if you are correct, then why can you not rebut my arguments? You have no comprehension of how language functions … you’ve got to realize that literalism is only one small part of how people use language to communicate. For some reason, the idea of “beer” to you brings on some horrendous cataclysm of drunkeness. Does even the thought or image of alcoholic drink make you go all dizzy and irrational? Jesus was called a “wine bibber”; maybe you’d best help Him into a recovery program, huh?
Sam, have you ever been in a fight, and somebody set you up for a punch? Didn’t you learn your lesson?
Alcohol and salt-very brain friendly.
For you information, the great St. Padre Pio was prescribed to drink beer to replace his blood losses!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Anonymous, you believe everything that the mainstream media tells you to believe. You fail to understand that the mainstream media is manipulating the investment markets, both up and down, in ways that allow them to buy low and sell high. You seem to prefer a regimen of Big Pharm over common sense … go for it.
Michael, I know people who make my frenetic energy outputs look sluggish. What do you make of that?
Skai, I think it’s good for such people to have a space like this to vent.
Otherwise, they might take out their vent-needs on those around them.
However, your references to diet (e.g., beer, meat, popcorn) make me very hungry right now for a juicy rare steak and some Scotch to go with it…
Michael, my most recent success story with whiskey was to bring back some local made pure agave tequila from Mexico. Close call when I broke it out among friends, as one dude was about to chug the whole bottle before he was kindly apprised of its high quality and then gratiously the whole ritual was dovetailed back into respect for quality juice.
Michael, steak can be really excellent, but wild game can leave it in the dust. Ruffed grouse that feed on huckleberries for months would be hard to beat. Even duck can bring an enchanting aroma … but this depends on what they’ve eaten along their flight south. Venison backstrap that practically melts in the mouth and which no one would even think to season, pork chops from wild hog that chowed down exclusively on acorns … gear up, dude, that great beefsteak is only the teaser.
Also, St Francis of Asissi shot down squandered wealth, and meaningless religious vanities … and he got the birds to sing about it.
Skai prove your statements. St.Francis did not get the birds to sing about anything, although he was close to all God’s creatures.
Read the lives of the Saints in ‘Butlers” which has a Nihil Obstat and and Impriatur.
sb “Imprimatur” – was typo.
Did you have too much beer when you misspelled above?
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Sam, why don’t you learn what “proving” statements consists of. Obviously I’m not writing for beginning language students. Give yourself a few years at least of constant study on the use of language and argument, and then give my posts another try.
Sam, how in the world do you know if St Francis did or did not get the birds to sing? You’re acting as if the only things he ever did are in the book you read. You should try to understand how a book only gives an account in written language of some aspect of someone’s life. The book is not the life of the person it’s about. I can easily get soaring raven to engage in conversation; does this seem crazy or delusional to you? For a really clear demonstration of man getting animals to talk, go and watch Duck Commander on TV … or go and buy a duck call and practice it on ducks … soon they will be quacking you awake in the mornings while flying by your window. Animals, Sam, are not what Aristotle made them out to be. The Philosopher was not inerrant … odd too that the Church picked up his error and often runs with it today even. You should go and observe animal behavior and then explain to me your observational conclusion as to why they are fundamentally different from human beings. Be objective and don’t be putting that kabosh on me that it’s obvious or that I’m speaking heresy. I made no conclusion here in this post … you go and see if you can objectively define the difference between animal and man … from your experience, and not from something you read or heard someone tell you. I know you won’t do it, and I know that few if any readers will make the attempt. If you do attempt it, then get back with the blog on what you discover. Point: Observe and conclude, aka reasoning process. Try to shed your preconceived notions of Church vs science; simply go and observe actual animal behavior and interaction. You may include your own interactions with them. Describe the interactions. The hard part, Sam, will be to keep objective and not read into the animal’s behavior what you’ve been taught it should be. Look with your own eyes. Jesus said something about “eyes to see with” … exercise this faculty given by God to each man, but which not every man chooses to exercise.
There’s maybe only so far a pope can shoot down an errant bishop or a cabal of them, before he is shot down. This could well explain their tendencies to tread softly.
Read Father Z’s blog from May 29.
So, Anonymous, you’ve accepted the claim that you are not capable of interpreting correcting anything that you read … in other words, you cannot believe your own eyes, and so now you want others to do your reading for you … umhmn.
Skai, we can not believe our eyes in some of what you post.
When quoting Jesus, or other Church teachings as stated through your eyes, please always provide the exact Bible passage paragraph number, etc., so that we all may benefit from the Church according to Skai. (Hopefully without the beer.)
Look it up for yourself, Sam; that’s what I did for several decades. You should learn what is in the Bible. Do your own homework. If what I write poses a problem for you, then you solve it. It’s called working your way to Heaven. If what you read or hear causes no problem for you, then, fine, keep napping.
YFC, you sound as though you’re on your last leg … hopefully you recover. BTW, do you become irrational when you have a couple bottles of beer? Back in the day, I’d chug pitchers and still function rationally … albeit somewhat less quickly, but much more affably. Do you roll over after a couple beers, YFC? Nobody ever was able to take me down, even a freekin’ billet full of Marines … yuh gotz tuh hold yer liquor, man. And I’m telling you how to do it. What do you think my blogging has been all about?
“without the beer”? Sam, sounds to me like the rev’noors got to you. Don’t you know that St Pio sipped beer all day long? Ever heard that Jesus recommended a “little wine with your water”? Sam, you need to update your religious knowledge.
It’s now becoming clearer to me how you come to write the posts you do. I shall now refer to the source of your knowledge as the theology of beer and popcorn.
It’s almost lunchtime. Will it be a pale ale or a stout? Butter or no?
YFC, you stop to eat lunch on a regular basis? I often don’t have to do to that. Sometimes I eat very little until late at night when I make up for the whole day with one large kettle full of good food. Not unusual to have coffee for breakfast, a quart of yogurt for lunch, grilled cheese sandwich later and then cool down with a bottle of beer even later, and finally when on my last legs of the day, boil up the rest of the food groups and spend a couple hours at it til it’s in the gullet. Like I posted yesterday, some of my friends see me as slow and lazy, and malnurished; but pushing 70, even with various physical injuries, failure to weigh as much as I ought to, and half starved many days, I can hike up and down mountains and run a quarter mile under 70 seconds … in street clothes. What am I missing? I used to say each syllable of the Rosary per each foot hitting the ground on these jaunts around the desert and scrub. There is nothing I can say here on prayer other than that you pray rain or shine, the more the better. Because God lives in timelessness as well as time, and as the faithful ever gradually enter more and more union with God, then we can also experience a bit of timelessness. All the other religions talk about their search and desire for this, but Catholicism is the only one that delivers, and does it in a way that seems too simple to be true. It has an effect on the use of the memory as one little benefit.
Dear Skai, I’m happy to say we agree on at least this:
“There is nothing I can say here on prayer other than that you pray rain or shine, the more the better. Because God lives in timelessness as well as time, and as the faithful ever gradually enter more and more union with God, then we can also experience a bit of timelessness. ”
The beer does not matter with me, Sam. I don’t change. Not everybody goes haywire under the influence of alcohol. I know alcoholics, drug addicts, etc. These things affect people physically, and in many cases this in turn causes emotional or mental problems, and many are addicted. But most are not. I’m just giving you a moment, a respite, to vent by blaming your lack of understanding on someone else drinking beer. And no I don’t drive under the influence … too many people on meds and booze out there, not to mention meth, heroin, crack, pot, bath salts, etc. I don’t even likely exceed the 0.08 BAC when I’m home at night while guzzling a couple bottles over the course of several hours. Like the actor said, “A man’s got to know his limits”, and I’m in that category. Now back to you going bananas over my posts: You know there is something to them, otherwise you’d ignore them. It is not my way to promulgate almanac factoids like you might find in the Baltimore Catechism; it is my way to motivate you board the ship called reason. Reason based on very few elements of revealed fact can go a long way. My recommendation in this method is to read the Book of Job, and watch him deploy logic and reason based on no divinely revealed knowledge. Then go and examine St Thomas Aquinas to see how he really worked up the act of reasoning … however, first you might want to read the Bible … note that I’m not saying read parts of the Bible. Read the whole Bible, read it in prayer. Read Saints and see how they refer to it. But read Saints who live and exemplify holiness. Read the mystic saints. Read the Doctors of the Church. Do what Jesus says, which is to follow Him … Hey, the disciples did not hold hands and walk behind Jesus in a single file line, or didn’t you realize that? At some point you will come to understand whether you are a sheep or a sheep dog or a ram. There are many categories of human characteristics, Sam; some live in caves and have little sense of anything other than feeding themselves; others live on the high places and can see vast tracks of the countryside. Most live in between those extremes. Read Job and see if you can understand what is taking place and where Job lives. There is also the natural faculty to deal with. Vanity becomes difficult in this area. I had zero trouble in high school geometry, as I could see all that stuff in the air, so to speak. And I could solve all the proofs the text had to offer. Few people can do that. There are other areas in which I fall on my face. I and another math whiz kid tried to convey some tough math to one of our fast track classmates, but he simply could not see it, yet he did well in school and likely went on to become a well liked manager of something or another. Sam, I live in that part of the world where the likes of PA and YFC would simply blow up in a big puff when the problem of survival most needed to be solved. I don’t see the point in moving.
CCC: 85 “The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition,
has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone.
Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ.
This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.”
Luke 10:16. – Jesus to His Apostles/Disciples – “He who hears you hears Me, and he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent me”.
Matthew 23:3 – Jesus said – “so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach but do not practice”.
Paula, you’re confusing the Seventytwo with the bishops today who are in communion with the pope. Also, how do you know which bishops are in communion with the pope? We just have been enlightened that Cdl Dolan has been signing off on abortions and contraceptions being done and issued in his hospitals. Would you say he is in communion with the pope? Would you say he practices what he preaches, as ordered by Pope Francis? or that Dolan has become holy as ordered by Pope Emeritus? Which bishops do you see as being in communion with the Pope?
Does that mean we are supposed to follow all bishops, even ones who are obvious heretics? I think not!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Mr. Fisher – please reread my post – only those Bishops who are in communion with the Pope. This is called the Magisterium.
Paula S, recently the Pope Emeritus told the bishops to “become holy”; if it were only a few who were in strange pasteurs, then your post would pack some wallop; however, it is not a few bishops but many or even most bishops. The new Pope even said that the bishops have to start practicing what they preach, so as to repair the reputation of the Church from the present hypocrisy … Don’t you understand what these popes are saying? They are plainly saying that not only has the smoke of Satan entered the Church as was said by Pope Paul VI, but that it has done so in spades. You also reflect shear ignorance of what Jesus has said about it becoming almost impossible to discern His shepherds. See, your post reflects an example of what happens to people whose only source of religion is the CCC2ndEdition. It does not give the reader the depth of religion that is needed to make general statements. It serves better as a legal guide through the minimal requirements for Catholicism.
Jesus was addressing “the seventytwo”. We now know what He said to them by reading it. Why would we need a bishop to repeat this to us? BTW, the “seventytwo” were holy, for as He said to them upon their return, their names were written in Heaven. Which bishop, Paula, has revealed that his name is written in Heaven?
God Bless Pope Francis. We must all pray for him. He is not treading softly with errant Bishops. (I would guess much more is to come from his teaching.)
On the Vatican web site see: – “Pope Francis Morning Meditation in the Chapel of the Domus Sanctae Marthae – WHEN SHEPHERDS BECOME WOLVES
– Wednesday, 15 May 2013 (Search “Pope Francis to Bishops”)
“Bishops and priests who succumb to the temptations of money and the vanity of careerism turn into wolves “who devour the flesh of their own sheep”.”
“According to St Augustine these temptations are avarice and vanity. When a priest takes the road of vanity he enters into the spirit of careerism and does great damage to the Church…. He boasts, he likes to be seen as high and mighty. And the people don’t like it!
You see what our difficulties and our temptations are; so you should pray for us that we be humble, gentle, and at the service of the people. ”
All of Pope Francis homilies, general audiences, etc., are posted on the Vatican web site for accuracy.
This quote is on the Vatican web site from a “General Audience” of May 15, 2013.
““In this Year of Faith let us ask ourselves if we have actually taken a few steps to get to know Christ and the truths of faith more, by reading and meditating on the Scriptures, studying the Catechism, steadily approaching the Sacraments.” – Pope Francis, May 15, 2013.
When money and things of this world become more important than Saving Souls, Bishops (and Priests) do not concern themselves with public SCANDAL or SACRILEGE against the Body and Blood of our Lord.
Then they do not enforce Canon 915 or 1399 and Souls are lost – the soul of the obstinate and scandalous sinner as well as the souls of those who are weak in Faith.
Whether it be Bishops, Priests, or Nuns (including LCWR and NETWORK), we should always ask ourselves – based upon their actions is their primary goal to Save Souls, or is it something else. ?
Mgr Padovano and others trying to trap our Pope…shame on them…
The Vatican bureaucrats need to be thrown out … I mean, sent on a mission, each on his own, to some remote corner … well, at least some place where they can’t behave like tyrants and hypocrites.
Skai as we will always have the poor, I’m sad to say that we will also have more of those bureaucrats as well. Not that we compare the two, but what I am trying to convey is that we will always have what history has always had, different times, different names but still the same. As long as we have sin…..since change begins with oneself, then that is where one must begin…to seek to walk on a path that helps us avoid sin. The rest, well we can just expect to continue. I have no power over these irrational requests or actions from our church leadership, but I can at least work on my own salvation and pray that our Lord will protect those who may have been scandalized by some of the ill actions of those whom are to Sheppard His flock. May our Pope receive well our prayers for him, God’s blessings be upon Him….he will need our prayers….after all running Christ’s church is important but not easy…especially when we have many Judases.
So, Abeca, are you saying that the way to reduce the number of poor is to hire them into the bureaucrcay?
No Skai not what I’m saying…lol but maybe they could use those jobs…after all it seems like many in the church are enabling many today.
Anonymous, It is better to be thought a fool then to write, and leave no doubt! Obviously you do not read church documents, and accuse those with whom you disagree ,to be sede-vacantists or against the Holy Spirit.
pilar, there are sede-vacantists who post here. There are schismatics who post here. I’m not accusing. I’m asking. They have rejected the post-Vatican II Church entirely. They are in a situation where they have been taught falsehoods. People are so contentious here that when someone asks a question it is taken as an insult. What church document do you think I need to read? It is a tenet of the faith that our prayer is from the Holy Spirit, the infallible guide of the Church. “The Missal promulgated by Paul VI is the ordinary expression of the “Lex orandi” (Law of prayer) of the Catholic church of the Latin Rite” Pope Benedict XVI Summorum Pontifuicum. It is the SAME RITE as the extraordinary form. It is not deficient. The things Father Karl said about the Ordinary Form are false. Try reading the CCC 1345-1405.
Anonymous, you’re worse than accusing, you’re presuming what you are not really competently informed about. You repeat everything you always heard or saw throughout your life, regardless of whether it was sound doctrine or folklore. The idiocy of it is that you do not even know or understand this, even after it has been explained to you carefully many times in many different ways.
No one has explained to me anything. Are you pilar? I can tell you are posting anonymously, too. What do you consider folklore? That the Holy Spirit guides the Church?
“Fr. Karl”: Thank you. Eloquent and direct testimony as to the beauty, wonder, power, and absolute value of the TLM. It is uncertain whether the TLM is making a lasting comeback sufficient to overtake use of the N.O. (and the two are not compatible, side-by-side). However, it is completely clear — as evidenced by the Italian bishops — that the “establishment” Catholic Church simply hates anything “too Catholic” including especially the TLM. Why should Cardinal Dolan set the tone, as he has in many ways, that the TLM is not to be a regular part of the worship of any particular diocese? He compares most unfavorably to Bishop Morlino (Madison, WI) and even to Archbishop Cordileone (SF) regarding his valuation of Catholic tradition and the historical Mass of the Ages. And, it is entirely true, that you believe as you pray, so the establishment Church, in its mind, must oppose the TLM, and anything traditional. Implementation of Vatican II has been a revolution, but one that is less likely to succeed, ultimately. One day, a brave bishop or two, and then a cardinal or two, and then a Pope, will simply say the Church will henceforth use the TLM. Then, things will change quickly. The Italian bishops are simply generals in a totalitarian system and see a threat to their power. Curious, that these same bishops seem unconcerned about what is best for purposes of achieving the salvation of their flock. Of course, many N.O. bishops do not think of that any longer, as it assumed that all who die will immediately go to Heaven. This gives such bishops much time for mischief, as no liturgy has any value, except as a moral booster and to encourage donations.
Dolan lost all credibility when it was reported recently that he has been signing off on abortion and contraception in his “Catholic” hospitals. How low can a bishop go? He ought to be flogged as an example to point out the hypocrisy infesting the episcopacy which has been addressed by the Pope.
Can you share with us, Skai, the source of “Dolan signing off on abortion and contraception in his Catholic hospitals” ??
What actually is happening is that Catholic schools and hospitals are already paying for contraception and abortificients via their employees medical coverage, which is undermining the efforts to oppose the HHS mandate. It has made Cdl. Dolan look like a complete fool. Lord when will you lift this curse of feckless prelates from your Church.
It’s out there in the media, teresa; after I mentioned it, another poster verified that she had seen it also. I think she even cited where.
teresa, try The Vortex May 13, 2013. Also, NY Archdiocese on Abortion: “We Provide the Services Under Protest” By Claire Healey on 5.28.13 @ 4:59PM (in The Spectator)
I must weigh in on this subject, and I know that what I will post will probably not make me any more friends here than I may already have (which is probably negligible), BUT…. I must in conscience say it (I’m also VERY CONFRONTATIONAL and have been for a very long time); this controversy still raging over the Traditional Latin Mass VS. the Novus Ordae Mass has been a bone of contention between the Traditionalists and the N.O. crowd since 1970. And both factions are VERY RIGID in their views, but especially so with the TLM bunch. And that is where the famous phrase “MORE CATHOLIC THAN THE POPE” came from. Because the TLM crowd were SO INTRANSIGENT in their views they received the very deserved reputation as knowing MORE than (especially) Pope Paul VI did and the whole vatican retinue as well. And yet, they CANNOT FIND even ONE phrase from the N.O. Mass that was officially promulgated by Paul VI that is HERETICAL or SCHISMATIC or in ANY WAY DEFICIENT. I’ve heard many masses in the last forty years ,and in some cases the modernist priests of say the ‘seventies would in some instances MAKE IT UP as they said mass, always the case in the San Fernando valley parishes where I lived in the late ‘seventies, St Charles Borromeo parish in North Hollywood being one, St. Frances of Assisi parish in Encino, I believe, being another. But the majority of the time, they would be accurate English translations of the N.O. mass, and offered up in varying degrees of reverence, etc., as would the case be where every priest offering them up wouldn’t be in cookie cutter mode, and so on. In other words, they’re all HUMAN so the priest’s personal reverence while saying the N.O. mass might not be very apparent. As to the so-called “clown masses” so much referred to by the TLM fanatics, I was present at 2 of these N.O. type masses in all the time subsequent to 1970 that I attended mass, and that’s hardly a LANDSLIDE of these types of masses so constantly being brought up by the TLM’s. But hey, as a kid and teenager, I attended ONLY TLM’s, and they were fine and reverent, at least as much as an American teenager whose consciousness was not very much RAISED could sense. But I TOTALLY AGREE with Pope Francis that SUMMORUM PONTIFICUM should be maintained as to the TLM, AS IS HIS RIGHT AS POPE. and it’s realy no-one else’s business, especially the crowd @ NATIONAL CATHOLIC REPORTER, who’ll likely make a BIG DEAL out of it. GOD BLESS ALL, MARKRITE.
Excellent post and thanks for braving the roar of the crowd.
There is no division amongst TRUE Catholics. Both forms of the Mass are holy.
Abuses of either form of the Mass that must be reported to the Diocese Bishop.
Skai – The Novus Ordo Mass is definitely not being phased out. It remains the dominant Latin Rite.
SV, why don’t you re-read what I posted instead of making up your own stuff and ascribing it to me?
SV, I did not say the novus ordo is being phased out; what I said, is the people of the novus ordo are being phased out. The novus ordo will stay with them. If you bother to read what popes say, you might have some inkling. Pope Emeritus, when he was a cardinal, opined that the novus ordo is not some final statement on liturgy. So, the only conclusion to this papal claim is that those who stick with the novus ordo will be heading in a direction away from the Church. Jesus says clearly that you cannot live only on the “bread” but require “every word that proceeds from the mouth of God”: This is why the novus ordo is deficient, because it falls way short of delivering every word of God. Perhaps you have homilies that do what Jesus says to do, perhaps you even have reverent OF Masses, but that would be an exception, SV, and thus you should be able to see that, coupled with a lot of bishops who refuse to become holy, which is their only purpose in life, the novus ordo devotee will be making an exit from the Church unless he or she changes in accord with the Church. Again, according to the Pope Emeritus, the novus ordo liturgy is going to go through at least some serious modification or even a replacement some day. But you who are short sighted and not informed well would certainly be correct to prophesy the everlasting OF, simply because your sense of everlasting goes from now til dinnertime.
This is pure stupidity to think that the TLM is up for debate….nope it is not. Whom ever oppose it, that is just their personal opinions but be careful how you oppose because it can dictate if your sentiments are of devious nature!
abeca, it is the ordinary form that is being debated. Welcome back. Missed you.
Anony? Which Anony is this? I was in the ER on Friday and then hospitalized over the weekend. It’s interesting how we can be healthy on one day and then change the next day. I also know it was a spiritual attack as well but the good Lord is with me always. I trust in Him! I just hope to return to good health once again…..
Sorry to hear you were sick. I hope you feel better soon. This anonymous post was mine. I will send up prayers for your healing and protection. The Feast of the Sacred Heart and Immaculate Heart are Friday and Saturday. May these Two Hearts bless you and your family. ( I realized after I posted that you probably meant the bishops in Italy.)
k thank you. Being hospitalized has rekindled the burning fire in me that yearns to meet up with my Lord. But I must say that it is truly humbling as well, I felt like a His little child, God forgive me for being a big baby too, totally dependent on Him and trusting my care to Him and those doctors and nurses.
I got to see how human I was when fear and anxieties came over me, but the pain sure reminded me to just surrender and take it one minute at a time. I was reminded of those poor innocent babies that where murdered due to a botched abortion…they are innocent and trusting and yet they were helpless because they could not save themselves….I thought here I am hospitalized getting the care I need and yet those innocent babies out there who survived an abortion and born alive, yet still did not get the care that a human being should get. I tried not to let those thoughts burden me but they did….so offering my pain for those intentions and personal intentions was the proper thing to do. Thank you K, I am so sorry to worry you all. I”ll be fine…. : )
Abeca, I’m sorry to hear about your illness. So glad you’re able to be back with us…no one knows what others go through, that’s for sure. One day last week I was especially compelled to pray for you but I think it was a Thursday…time goes so fast that it’s hard to keep track. One time I was woken out of a deep sleep years ago and had what felt like a panic attack about an old flame…I prayed for him for over an hour and several days later I had heard that his ex-wife had hired some motorcycle friends to murder him and steal his money. He was beaten badly but did not die. Whenever we get those urges, we need to act on them!
Dana you are really sweet. Thank you, well you were right. The Holy Ghost is awesome how He touched your heart to remember me. You are right, it’s hard to know how many are doing here….that is why I pray for everyone here..and I mean everyone. I pray good health and God’s graces for everyone here. I also have special prayers for certain ones, I especially ask the Lord to help me pray the way it pleases Him for each intention, that my own will not interfere but that His will be done. You are right on what you are saying.
I am so sorry to hear that your were hospitalized over the weekend. I hope you are feeling much better. I am also glad you are back. Dana is right about never knowing what others go through. She is also right about our little promptings to pray for people. I will keep you in my prayers sweet sister in Christ!
Come Holy Spirit fill the hearts of thy faithful and enkindle in them the fire of thy Love….Please give strength and protection to our sweet Abeca!
k, Dana and Catherine….thank you very much. Yes praise God I am home now. They said it could of ended in death. I will just have to pray to find some natural healing methods instead of what the doctors keep pushing me to do. My issues are genetic, usually happens to my family at a younger age, I’ve been blessed to take care of me for years but the last two years have been very stressful and especially with some of the last few tragedies we have had to endure.
But the good Lord is with me. When I was in the ER, my son and a man that came out of no where, caught me when I passed out before I landed on the floor. When I return to consciousness I prayed to our Lord and had my personal talk time with Him…..I felt alone actually….but He showed me mercy because when they moved me to a hospital room my nurse’s name was Fatima and my roommate’s name was Fe…in Spanish that means “faith”. When I was crying, my room mates came over to me, she was in pain too, and prayed with me. At 3am we prayed the Divine Chaplet of mercy…at 6am we said THE ANGELUS prayer. My roommate encouraged me to pray, she had these prayers and she even gave me a prayer paper too. I looked up and said to our Lord “Oh Lord, you did answer me” I felt humbled, how can such a sinner as me, deserve all this attention from my Lord” Surely I don’t deserve it….
So now I have to take it easy…..I am just looking for answers now and pray for our Lord’s guidance on what is best for my health.
Catherine thank you. Your sweet prayers are pearls. I am grateful. It’s interesting huh sweet sis, how fragile we humans really are. Some of us with prideful big heads but when it comes down to it, we all have to exit the same way in some different manner. It’s scary too but we must have faith and trust. But no one ever said that it was wrong to fear…the unknown, there is nothing wrong with that…it’s how we go about it I suppose. God gave us emotions, feelings….so I figured I could cry, I could have my talks with my Lord, my complaints etc…whatever it took to help me stay at the foot of the cross with Him, to help me endure and accept what comes natural. I gotta tell you, I am grateful and do not take for granted what our Lord did for us. The pain He had to endure for my sins…whew…is something we can never imagine….no matter how much I experienced last weekend, whew by far, it’s nothing comparing to what our Lord went through. I am glad He reminded me a touch of it. But who knows what I’ll feel tomorrow….it changes…but to remain faithful is always up there, on top of my list. When we ask our Lord to humble us…well He perfectly does give us our requests.
We are truly fragile, if we could just see how our sins just make us more vulnerable…perhaps many of us can seek to follow Christ more so we can be molded by Him. I am grateful for good souls who truly care about my salvation…because before I die or when I die, I will need their prayers….that is far more important for me. Nothing else matters more…than salvation. Of course, I can’t lie to you but good health is way up that list too. God bless you!
I may be way off here, but if what the doctors are pushing you to do is surgery (like a hysterectomy), do not be afraid. Jesus will guide you and protect you. Everyone I know who put off surgery came out of it saying “Why did I wait so long?” I read once (and I can’t remember which mystic it was) that Jesus can only work a miracle after you have exhausted all the usual means of healing. I’ll pray for your healing and for you to know with confidence the Will of the Lord. Sacred Heart of Jesus, I place all my trust in You.
No not a hysterectomy….not at all. Thank you for your thoughts and prayers. God bless everyone.
Father Karl, Thank you for speaking the truth in your 31 May 2013, 2:59 pm comment. I am puzzled by your sincere comments as to why you still say what you might consider inferior protestant worship service.
In fact, “Markrite,” the N.O. is deficient and far less efficacious for purposes of the transmission of grace than is the TLM. This does not mean that the N.O. is illict, or defective for purposes of being a Mass, only that it means less to those that attend it. Catholics should not be given the false impression that the OF and the EF masses are mere preferences, like preferring chocolate or strawberry ice cream. Certainly, over time, one form will obliterate the other; the Italian bishops are merely the vanguard of those that fear the power of the TLM. But, they are correct in that those that regularly attend the TLM no longer see the other limitations placed on the faith by lazy and ill-formed clergy as valid. Take some time to review the mountains of literature that lead only in one direction, the continual use of the traditional sacraments, and rejection of the made-up sacraments of the past thirty or forty years. Remember, the Catholic Church did not start with Vatican II, although the mid-level and older clergy all like to believe that it did. Fr. Karl is entirely correct regarding the compelling power of the TLM, as more and more younger clergy are discovering.
Kenneth M. Fisher, traditionalists (schismatics) have to justify their existence. Most of the people who follow them would leave if they really understood what they were doing. They only tell people the things that they want them to know. I cannot verify that there were 6 protestants on the Commission for Liturgical Reform. I have found the names of 6 protestant observers whom the Vatican declared “did not participate in the composition of the texts of the new Missal.” 1976 As for the Ottovani intervention, it was written before the New Missal was promulgated. Have you ever been told his statements after it was promulgated? Have you ever been shown this quote from him? “The words of Christ “feed my sheep” are words which were addressed only to his vicar, and it follows that whoever would wish to be counted among the Flock of Christ must submit to the universal Pastor appointed by Christ. No one can be an exception to this rule, not even bishops.”
Most Catholics who prefer the Ordinary Form or the Extraordinary Form of the Mass for their prayer life are Faithful.
Those who bad-mouth either Form – are schismatics.
Our POPES have SPOKEN and both Forms are HOLY.
End of subject.
If anyone attends a Mass that is abusive – not according to GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal) for the Ordinary Form,
or not according to the 1962 Missal for the Extra-ordinary Form,
– then they have an OBLIGATION to report it to the appropriate Diocese Bishop (and the US Papal Nuncio and Vatican if necessary).
If you do not report abuses in a timely manner, then YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM – and have no right to complain.
GIRM is on the Vatican web site. No Priest or Bishop has the authority to change the Form of either Form of Mass.
Note: The VATICAN has SPOKEN –
If you read GIRM, yes you can receive Holy Communion while kneeling and/or on the tongue. It is up to the individual, not the Priest or Bishop.
Any Priest who wants to learn the Extraordinary Form may do so – it is not up to the Diocese Bishop.
If there are a number of people in any Parish ( I would guess a minimum of 40 or more) who are interested in the Extraordinary Form, approach your Parish Priests, perhaps with a petition. There is no reason why a Parish should not have at least one Extraordinary (Latin) Form of the Mass, while continuing with the Ordinary Form for others.
Those who are curious about the Extra-ordinary Form should have a copy of the 1962 Missal or another approved book that has Latin on one side of the page and English on the other – so that you will be able to silently pray the prayers with the Priest and understand exactly what is happening at all times.
Many lost souls holding blindly onto modernism and thinking that those holding dearly to tradition, i.e. the Faith of our Fathers are schismatics. Look up what a schismatic is really defined, then you will see a definition of those who endorsed modernism during and after the Vatican II Council. It is the modernists who left the one true apostolic Roman Catholic Church, not those who hold firmly to the TLM, original 7 Holy Sacraments, prayers, rosary, and practices of old. Only through the graces given to us by the Holy Ghost, will we see these truths. The true Roman Catholic Faith and Church is not made up of schismatics, but those who hold firmly to tradition, following Christ’s teachings and examples. We all need to read Fr. James Meagher’s book titled “How Christ said the First Mass”, and pray the three mysteries of the Rosary that the Holy Ghost will open our eyes, minds, and hearts beforehand to comprehend the truth and see the modernists errors and who the real schismatics are.
Most American Catholic parish’s, have been saturated with modernism…pure and simple…how revolting to watch people clapping after mass!…as if they just witnessed a sporting event!…cross-talk, constant hand holding, music that is not sacred and contemplative, and often not remotely Catholic. Altar girls in tennis shoes, (unreal!)…laity running around on the altar…abuse and sacrilege EVERYWHERE…communion lines full…confession lines empty…this is the fruit that has burgeoned since the close of Vatican II…the return of the TLM began under Pope Benedict the xvi…slowly, the wheel is turning back to a more traditional center…the seminaries are still bursting with modernist’s and homosexual’s, but these element’s are also being repulsed and pushed out, and into back into outer “darkness”, where evil reign’s….
“In this Year of Faith let us ask ourselves if we have actually taken a few steps to get to know Christ and the truths of faith more, by reading and meditating on the Scriptures, studying the Catechism, steadily approaching the Sacraments.” – Pope Francis, May 15, 2013.
Adamantine, no Priest may change anything in the “General Instruction of the Roman Missal ” (GIRM).
If the abuses you mentioned are taking place at your Parish, report them to the Diocese Bishop for correction.
GIRM is available on the Vatican web site, and on the USCCB web site.
You can even purchase a copy of the “General Instruction of the Roman Missal” from Amazon – just make sure you get the newest version (since old versions are sold there as well).
You can give a copy to your Parish Priest or keep it for yourself.
We all have the responsibility to report abuses to the appropriate persons – the Priest and/or Diocese Bishop – not merely complain about them in the media.
Each one should ask – have I done MY job recently ?
Code of Canon Law – – ” THE OBLIGATIONS AND RIGHTS OF ALL THE CHRISTIAN FAITHFUL – – 212 §3 . According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons. “
Pio…nice thought…frustration is the order of the day…and decade in fact….report these abuses to whom?…the modernist bishop, in charge of the diocese?…these abuse continue to blossom and become augmented by the support of MODENIST CLERGY AND BISHOPS! These problems are pandemic in this country and abroad! The Pope needs to bring the whip down on these modernist, heretic clergy, who continue to spread poison and errancy around the globe, infected the laity with this vile rot!
My opinion from observations is: Most older cradle Catholics have bad memories about church, when they were young. The modern version of mass which seems to be more of a social , laxer, community gathering approach. It simply ‘feels’ better. No whistles, no smell of incense, not so depressing quiet! .Almost like Evangelical Christian worship services. The problem is that they never did and still don’t understand the TLM. Non one xplained to them. The watering down of Catholic, strict liturgical, traditional mass practices opened the door for people to leave the church and join Evangelical Christian sects or turn ‘Non Religious’, the phase before becoming ‘Atheists’.