Pope Francis issued a motu proprio on Friday restricting Masses celebrated in the extraordinary form of the Roman Rite.
In the motu proprio, issued July 16, the pope made sweeping changes to his predecessor Benedict XVI’s 2007 apostolic letter Summorum Pontificum, which acknowledged the right of all priests to say Mass using the Roman Missal of 1962, which is in Latin.
In an accompanying letter to bishops explaining his decision, Pope Francis wrote: “In defense of the unity of the Body of Christ, I am constrained to revoke the faculty granted by my Predecessors. The distorted use that has been made of this faculty is contrary to the intentions that led to granting the freedom to celebrate the Mass with the Missale Romanum [Roman Missal] of 1962.”
The motu proprio, known as Traditionis custodes (“Guardians of the tradition”) and dedicated to “the use of the Roman Liturgy prior to the reform of 1970,” contains eight articles that go into immediate effect.
The first describes liturgical books issued by popes Paul VI and John Paul II after the Second Vatican Council as “the unique expression of the lex orandi [the law of prayer] of the Roman Rite.”
The second states that it is a bishop’s “exclusive competence” to authorize the use of the 1962 Roman Missal in his diocese.
The third sets out the responsibilities of bishops whose dioceses already have one or more groups that offer Mass in the extraordinary form.
It requires bishops to determine that these groups do not deny the validity of Vatican II and the Magisterium.
Bishops are instructed to “designate one or more locations where the faithful adherents of these groups may gather for the eucharistic celebration (not however in the parochial churches and without the erection of new personal parishes).”
The third article also asks the local bishop “to establish at the designated locations the days on which eucharistic celebrations are permitted using the Roman Missal promulgated by St. John XXIII in 1962.”
The motu proprio says that Masses offered according to the 1962 Roman Missal — which are celebrated in Church Latin — are to use readings “proclaimed in the vernacular language, using translations of the Sacred Scripture approved for liturgical use by the respective episcopal conferences.”
It also calls for the establishment of a diocesan delegate selected by the bishop to oversee the pastoral care for these groups.
“This priest should have at heart not only the correct celebration of the liturgy, but also the pastoral and spiritual care of the faithful,” it states.
Bishops are also told to verify that the already established parishes “are effective for their spiritual growth and to determine whether or not to retain them,” as well as “to take care not to authorize the establishment of new groups.”
The fourth article says that priests ordained after July 16, 2021, who wish to offer the extraordinary form of the Mass will need to submit a formal request to the diocesan bishop who will then consult with the Apostolic See before granting authorization.
The fifth says that priests who already offer extraordinary form Masses should request authorization from their diocesan bishop to “continue to enjoy this faculty.”
Articles six and seven establish that the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments and the Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies for Apostolic Life exercise the authority of the Holy See in overseeing these provisions.
This means that institutes of consecrated life and societies of apostolic life that were established by Ecclesia Dei — a pontifical commission created by John Paul II in 1988 and merged into the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) in 2019 — now fall under the Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies for Apostolic Life.
The eighth and final article of the motu proprio declares that “previous norms, instructions, permissions, and customs that do not conform to the provisions of the present motu proprio are abrogated.”
In his letter to bishops, Pope Francis explained the reasons behind his decision to limit access to the extraordinary form of the Roman Rite.
He said that the responses to a survey of bishops conducted by the CDF in 2020 “reveal a situation that preoccupies and saddens me, and persuades me of the need to intervene.”
Francis said that when his predecessors allowed the celebration of the Mass according to the form used before the reforms of Vatican II, they wanted to encourage unity within the Church.
“An opportunity offered by St. John Paul II and, with even greater magnanimity, by Benedict XVI, intended to recover the unity of an ecclesial body with diverse liturgical sensibilities, was exploited to widen the gaps, reinforce the divergences, and encourage disagreements that injure the Church, block her path, and expose her to the peril of division,” he wrote.
The pope said he was saddened that the celebration of the extraordinary form was now characterized by a rejection of the Second Vatican Council and its liturgical reforms. To doubt the Council, he said, is “to doubt the Holy Spirit himself who guides the Church.”
Pope Francis added that a final reason for his decision was a growing attitude of “rejection of the Church and her institutions in the name of what is called the ‘true Church….’”
The above comes from a July 16 story on the site of the Catholic News Agency.
As Fr. Zuhlsdorf put it today,
Fr. Z. now needs permission to celebrate the TLM. Must really irk him. And he needs to celebrate it in front of a group recognized and authorized by the bishop, in a location designated by the bishop that cannot be a regular parish church. He cannot celebrate the TLM privately anymore.
Vatican II wins.
Fr. Z is losing it, based on his posts about the motu proprio, especially the one in which he absurdly compares the motu proprio to a machine cutting down trees.
I can understand he’s upset that his life’s work is proving fruitless and the liturgy he loves is going to eventually die out. But he needs to accept Vatican II. He should respond to the motu proprio with humility and obedience.
Fr. Z is going to milk this “crisis” for donations. Never let a crisis go to waste.
I visited FrZ’s site. He’s grasping at straws to stay relevant now. With no more TLM what does he do?
They hate the TLM because they fear it.
bohemond,
You hit the nail square on the head!
And why do traddies hate the Novus Ordo?
Well here are the reasons why: Giant puppets, priests dressed as clowns, hand holding, kiss of peace, altar girls, lay lectors, laymen handing out communion in the hands, girls and effeminate men in leotards prancing around the altar with streamers, rock, folk, mariachi music, drums, guitars, piano, women waving their hands around trying to make people sing silly songs, improper attire, 10% Mass attendance it was 75% prior to the Council, no belief in the Real Presence and the list goes on. By the way we don’t hate the Novus Ordo, it is you and the Modernists who hate the Mass of All Times, hate is a strong word, remember you were once what we were it is you who changed with a man-made Novus Ordo Mass created by six Protestant ministers and Free Masons.
Romulus Augustus, Satan is the father of all lies.
Strong word, hate, and inaccurate. If you cared to understand, you would research it yourself.
These days, the Novus Ordo is no where near it was intended to be if you read the council’s documents. The Tridentine has had minor changes because of those who were at the Cluncil. I would anticipate more changes coming with both masses because of the continuance of the Spirit ? of Vatican 2.
The real question is why Francis hates the Latin Mass.
We don’t like it because we are not Protestants — or whatever it could be called. We don’t like it because we know what has been taken away from us. We don[‘t like it because it causes us to leave Mass angry, disappointed and yes, disgusted.
Anon– are you angry? I am a different “Anon.” You know, we still have the Tridentine Latin Mass. No worries.
I don’t hate it, but I think the Church has moved past it.
Thanks be to God Pope Francis had the foresight and courage to issue Traditionis custodies! The use of the Traditional Latin Mass to divide the one holy, apostolic and catholic Church and to assert the Second Vatican Council was not licit by many of the devotees of the TLM is long overdue for fraternal correction by the Holy Father. Keep Pope Francis in your prayers as undoubtedly the “latinistas” will come after him and also try to further harm the Church.
Harold,
This has little to do with Vatican II.
I believe that Francis’s decision was a political calculation that disregards the care of souls. We need to pray for Pope Francis.
Steve, Thanks again for the tip about the “Strategic Relocation” book. It arrived today.
James, I hope the book is of good use.
To the contrary, this has everything to do with Vatican II. Vatican II said that the old Mass was to be reformed. Pope Francis has officially mandated that every Catholic acknowledge the new Mass is the Church’s preferred Mass and that the exceptions permitting the old Mass are canceled and under the new regulations the old Mass will be phased out. Don’t blame Francis, he’s being faithful to Vatican II, which is the Pope’s job.
Anonymous,
Francis is not being faithful to Vatican II as you claim. Vatican II recommended that the Mass be said in Latin. Is Francis really being faithful to this – or is he being political and divisive?
Also, please note that the Council did not recommend that the Mass be revised for no good reason. It sought the changes for pastoral and theological reasons. Those conditions are largely not present in the existing TLM communities of FSSP and ICK. Sadly, at the rate that people are leaving the Church, those conditions appear to be present in the non-TLM communities.
Lastly, the Pope’s job is not to be faithful to Vatican II: His job is to be faithful to Christ.
Oh my gosh… such ignorance. Vatican II did not recommend the Mass be in Latin. It said Latin should be retained while employing wider use of the vernacular. It made no decision about how much Latin to continue using.
Vatican II issued principles for the reformed Mass. Paul VI approved a new Mass that adhered to those principles.
As Pope Francis has said, FSSP and ICK communities largely use the TLM as a way to express disapproval of Vatican II.
The Pope indeed must be faithful to Vatican II as an expression of the will of the bishops, which have the authority from Christ to bind and loose.
The ignorance of trads is appalling.
Steve Seitz, you are correct. He is being faithful to Christ.
Anonymous,
Such ignorance? Really? It looks like you’re getting uncomfortable.
Please tell me where the Latin has been retained in the OF of the Mass?
Your accusation against FSSP and ICK is a very bad opinion. Experience and logic tells us otherwise. I think you’re confusing the Council with the “spirit of the Council”. That “spirit” was a Marxists spirit.
Lastly, I’m not sure what a Trad is, but I’m pretty certain I’m not one.
Steve Seitz: The Ordinary Form can be offered almost entirely in Latin except for the readings. Even that can be offered in Latin. And your throwing shade at the Council by characterizing its “spirit” as Marxist: well, to use your own words: “such ignorance.”
Jon,
You may not have lived back in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, but back then, we had the Council with its documents. There was also the phrase “the Spirit of the Council” that people used who hated Church teaching and Vatican II but who wanted the veneer of authority to push their agenda. That agenda was seldom Catholic. It was an anti-Catholic soup of anything contrary to the Church’s teachings, including Marxists, radical feminist, secular, and gay thought.
By the way, the word “ignorance” came from Anonymous. I merely quoted it back as a question. I don’t name-call. Please re-read.
Steve Seitz is wrong. The Pope’s motu propio has a lot to do with Vatican II (the Pope mentions that himself in the document); it has a lot to do with care of souls. Promoting unity within the Church is very much for the spiritual care of the souls of those who are separating themselves from the Church.
jon,
The motu propio has little to do with Vatican II, partly because the new Mass, itself, doesn’t comply with it. Also, John Paul II and Benedict XVI were big Vatican II guys, and they were okay with the TLM as a limited expression of the Mass.
Lastly, if the Pope meant the moto propio to be unifying, he made a tragic miscalculation. There has been only disunity in the Church since he promulgated that most divisive document. He hasn’t just upset Trids, he’s also upset large swaths of conservative and moderate non-Trids, such as myself. Do you not hear the noise? Is this the noise of unity?
When someone claims the new Mass doesn’t comply with Vatican II, you can dismiss everything he says because he clearly doesn’t know what he’s talking about. These words are at the front of every Novus Ordo Missal: “The Roman Missal Renewed by Decree of the Most Holy Second Ecumenical Council of the Vatican”
Anonymous,
The new Mass was to be renewed by decree of Vatican II. I don’t disagree at all. This is why Paul VI instructed staff to revise the Mass. However, this is different than to say that Vatican II approved the new Mass. The Council stated that Latin was to be retained in the Liturgy. I attend Mass every Sunday and don’t hear much Latin.
Lastly, your sweeping statement in your first sentence continues to show your discomfort with the subject. Why is that?
Steve Seitz: The new motu propio didn’t cause this “division.” Rather, the misuse and the distortion of Benedict’s “Summorum Pontificum” by many adherents of the Extraordinary Form over the past 13 or so years has caused the division. The “noise” you hear after “Traditionis custodes” came out last Friday is the manifestation of the division that Pope Francis had described in the motu propio. The “noise” you hear proves that Pope Francis is correct. God Bless The Pope!
jon,
Before the motu propio, there was no division at all, except in SSPX. Regarding SSPX, I agree with you. They reject Vatican II and tend to be divisive. They’re also not Catholic except, at best, in a highly irregular way.
On the other hand, there has been no division among the Catholic Trids of FSSP and the Institute of Christ the King. To say otherwise is simply misinformation and false assumptions.
Regarding noise, this message area is filled with Trids and non-Trids alike. As you and everyone else knows, I support Vatican II and ardently wish that SSPX would return to the Church. I am Mr. Unity. But what the Pope did struck right at my heart. The motu propio has created a sad, hot mess of discord and disunity. I wish that he would walk it back before it starts doing lasting harm.
Again Steve Seitz is mistaken here. According to the Archbishop of Dijon, who recently expelled the FSSP from his diocese, the beloved FSSP does contribute to the divisiveness. And if there’s one Archbishop who thinks that way, there must be many more. We know; they responded to the survey to bishops last year.
Plus, you say that “there is no division among the Catholic trads of FSSP or the Institute”?? Really?? These communities that only offer the TLM, such as the beloved FSSP and the beloved Institute of Christ the King, won’t even offer the Ordinary Form, Steve Seitz. They shun it. How exclusivist is that? They won’t serve the majority of Catholics, only the “elite” it seems, namely those who go to the TLM. That’s divisive and elitist in my book. Carry on!
jon,
This is my last reply to you.
Regarding the FSSP in Dijon, are you going to fault the entire FSSP for the actions of one group in France? Likewise, are you going to condemn the entire Catholic Church (non-Trid portion) for the horrendous actions of the Church in Germany?
Lastly, I guarantee that you are confusing FSSP and ICK with the SSPX. Have you had any contact with both groups? I have. There’s a big difference.
So now Steve Seitz asks, “am I going to fault the entire FSSP for the actions of their priests in Dijon, France.” A resounding yes. These priests from the beloved FSSP and the beloved ICRSS are cut from the same cloth; these groups take orders from, and follow closely their superiors. I know. I have had contact with folks from both groups. And so additionally, Seitz is wrong in that I am not confusing those two with the beloved SSPX. It’s well-known that the beloved FSSP and the equally-beloved ICRSS do not (get that folks, do not) as a rule offer the Ordinary Form. They won’t even concelebrate. How’s that for divisiveness, elitism, and contempt for Vatican II and the Magisterium? The Archbishop of Dijon was rather miffed by that.
Why won’t they? Oh they’ll tell you something benign like “it’s not in our charism.” Hooey. It’s more like this: even though they pay lip service to Vatican II and the liturgical reform (as opposed to the beloved SSPX who do not pay lip service to the Council and therefore have no legal standing in the Church), the beloved FSSP and ICRSS are really deep down suspicious of, and doubtful of the validity and the efficacy of the Council and of the Ordinary Form.
One can say that these groups those only offer the TLM have been cultivating division and casting doubts in the minds of Catholics who go to them, up and down their various apostolates, oratories, chapels, parishes, just by virtue of the fact that they refuse to offer the Ordinary Form as a rule. They have to explain to the people who go to them their “raison d’être”—which is to be in an “unofficial” opposition to Vatican II and the Ordinary Form, yet while remaining “in communion with Rome” unlike the beloved SSPX who are “officially” not in communion. Their position (that of the beloved FSSP and the beloved ICRSS) is frankly untenable, lukewarm, and wobbly. But still, they have been divisive, which harms the health of the Church worldwide. The Pope is so right to make this immediate and swift corrective, like a responsible physician/surgeon that he is: a corrective which hurts, but any cure at first may hurt.
I hasten to add that one cannot say that the rest of the Diocesan priests in various parts of the world is cut from the same cloth; so it will be illogical to say that I am therefore blaming the rest of the Church for the actions of the renegade German bishops. That’s an illogical assertion in Seitz’s part.
Pope Francis has rightly called out these groups (which includes the beloved FSSP, ICRSS) on their divisiveness. And these groups including the laity who go to their apostolates know they’ve been rightfully called out by Peter. “Petri locuta est”; Peter has spoken, and they know it. Sadly, they have brought all of this upon themselves.
But honestly folks, how can someone call himself “Mr. Unity” when at every comment the same person impugns the Pope. Baffling.
And the Devil fears it more. Remember Satan hates the Latin language. As Rorate said in its headline Francis will die but the TLM will live. Don’t be angry and bitter Dr. Taylor Marshall said today but pray and support your TLM parish priests.
The TLM’s days are numbered. Face it.
The Pope wants Bishops to make sure that the groups that attend the Latin Mass do not deny the validity of the Magisterium. That is nice to know. If you don’t accept the validity of the Magisterium, then just go to the N.O. Mass. Those who go to the N.O. Mass support the murder of babies, support sodomy, cohabitate, watch pornography, use contraception, don’t believe that Jesus is present in the Blessed Sacrament, and they conclude their week of sin with fake worship that is consummated by receiving Communion in a state of mortal sin. It is nice to see that the Pope is interested in upholding the Magisterium.
The millions upon millions who attend Mass on Weekends don’t come close to meeting your description of them. They certainly don’t hold the hate that you do.
Show me the N.O. parish where all of its members accept:
1) The Church’s teaching on contraception
2) The Church’s teaching on sodomy
3) The Church’s teaching on killing babies
4) The Church’s teaching on fornication
5) The Church’s teaching on watching pornography
6) The Church’s teaching on The Real Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament
I bet you can’t even get past number one. Nice Try
Show me a TLM community where all of the members accept Vatican II.
What you wrote is irrelevant to Vatican II liturgy being the official Church liturgy.
Read my comment again. Where do you find me making any specific claims about the Vatican II liturgy being the official Church liturgy?
As per my response to Mr. Seitz, my screen name did not appear and Anonymous was used instead. Sorry for the confusion.
I see you failed to point out any specific claims in my comment about the Vatican II liturgy being the official Church Liturgy.
Don’t Touch My Booty,
I can easily name one, but I can’t vouch for ALL its members. Then again, I don’t think that ALL TLM members would pass that test either.
Okay, you got me there. If we lower the standard to where 50 percent of N.O. parishes can pass, the number of TLM parishes that can pass would be a lot higher.
Anonymous,
Yes, I would agree with that. :)
For whatever reason, my screen name did not appear with my comment and Anonymous showed up instead. Sorry for the confusion.
Mr. Seitz, your response shows much more virtue and decorum than is the norm for the comments that are shown here.
Don’t Touch My Booty,
Thank you. Truth be told, you made it easy to respond appropriately because of your own charitable reply. It seems that some in this area choose to operate with a sledge hammer when a scalpel would be the better instrument.
This ruling will give considerably more power to the SSPX. Thank you, Francis, for screwing over unity in the name of unity.
Thanks for providing humor. ” …for screwing over unity in the name of unity.” Unity isn’t a virtue.
Is your advice for me finding a FSSP or ICK locally still good advice?
As for “finding a FSSP. . .”, why bring the Friendly Sons of St. Patrick into the argument?
anonomouse,
My advice now is more important than before. It’s important for members of SSPX to end their membership and join ICK/FSSP. The Church will get stronger when its members become more orthodox. We need you!
Also, it’s my opinion that Francis is using this sadness to force ICK/FSSP members out of the Church so as to reduce the power that orthodox Catholics have. Deny him this satisfaction.
Lastly, I offer up St. Athanasius, the Patriarch of Alexandria, as the saint for our times. He dealt with a large number of heresies and counter-heresies and was slandered, arrested, tortured, mistreated, and deposed as patriarch multiple times – but he refused to renounce his communion with the Bishop of Rome. He was a true Catholic.
We all knew this was coming, and even after colon cancer surgery he STILL has venom for the TLM.
Perhaps he awaits Arius’s fate
This was started by Vatican II, which said that the liturgy was to be reformed. Vatican II never intended that the old Mass would continue to be celebrated. The new Mass was to replace it. If you don’t like that the TLM is not the Church’s official Mass, don’t blame Francis… blame Vatican II. But as a Catholic you still have to follow the council’s decision.
Staying Rigid,, rejecting the Council…
Anonymous,
We need some clarity. Vatican II charged the Pope with revising the Liturgy. Vatican II did not approve the new Mass which was not in full compliance with the conciliar documents. Also, John Paul II and Benedict XVI were big Vatican II fans, yet they approved of limited use of the TLM for the care of souls.
I don’t regularly attend a Latin Mass, but this is an extremely sad day for the Church. So now I can attend Mass in English or Spanish or Portuguese or Hmong or Vietnamese or Swahili or …,but not in Latin. If the purpose is to unite people, it would seem the Pope would want to unite then under one language. The devil is happy to see the end of the many beautiful, reverent Latin Masses. This action divides. It does not unite. It is the work of Marxism.
You can attend a Latin Mass, it just has to be a Novus Ordo Latin Mass. Do you not understand what this new document says? Seems so.
Anonymous,
Actually, the document says the opposite. It states in Article 3, Section 1 that the TLM can not be celebrated “in the parochial churches.”
The novus ordo can be celebrated in Latin. The novus ordo can be celebrated in parishes. People, read the motu proprio fully before you type ignorance. I’m sure the moderator doesn’t like having to post your ignorant comments.
The TLM is not the only Latin Mass in the Church.
Anonymous,
Sadly, the Pope’s document is poorly written and confusing for people with an intellect.
James, he did not end Latin Masses.
James, you did not read the moto proprio and it shows.
What’s next, is he going to outlaw the rosary, or maybe Eucharistic adoration?
How silly to suggest that. Is that the depth of thinking among Trads?
go back to your modernist heretical sect…
Anonymous, I once belonged to a contemplative lay Order for many years. When they “modernized” it, abandoning the original, centuries-old foundations– and demanded that we stop all traditional religious devotions, such as praying the Rosary, Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, and contemplative prayer (deemed “selfish escapism” by the new Provincial Superior)– most of us left, and the Order nearly collapsed. Next, many joined a similar lay Order, with good leadership. The Provincial Superior was furious, about the resulting, false “competition”– one lay Order “stealing” from another! I was deeply involved in traditional Sacred Music (both Novus Ordo and Tridentine Latin Masses) and many members attended both Masses. We all were mostly middle-aged or elderly, with a few younger Catholics– and nobody cared about questioning Vatican II. The Provincial forbade us to attend the old Latin Mass, authorized by any local bishop/archbishop (this was during the “Indult” period). We were all threatened terribly, and it was a big mess. Well– finally, in the end– the Provincial’s own superiors decided to “kick him upstairs” and sent him far away, to a solitary position, working in a religious library in the Vatican– because he was deemed “good with books”– but “poor” at working with people. I never returned, nor joined anything else. The “big mess” that we wrongfully endured, was too scary, shocking and health-destroying, for many older Catholics.
This was the right decision. Francis has codified that the new Mass is to be preferred to the TLM, which is as it should be in the church after Vatican II. This was sorely needed because a lot of traddies are SSPX at heart. Let them go to SSPX and prove the schismatics they really are. If you don’t accept Vatican II then you aren’t Catholic. That’s all Francis declared and codified today. Who could argue with that? Oh, a schismatic would, that’s who.
Pope Francis did say he would be the first pope to cause a schism. Is that what he wants?
Anon, I am a different “Anon.” When did Pope Francis say that he was going to be “the first Pope to cause schism?” I thought he was worried that the German bishops would cause a schism.
Anon, can you document your statement?
Walter Mayr, the Rome correspondent of the German magazine Der Spiegel, reports the following at the conclusion of his 23rd December article on Pope Franics and the crisis over the dubia:
In a very small circle, Pope Francis is said to have self-critically further explained himself as follows: ‘It is not to be excluded that I will enter history as the one who split the Catholic Church’. [Im kleinsten Kreis soll Franziskus sich selbstkritisch schon so erklärt haben: “Nicht ausgeschlossen, dass ich als derjenige in die Geschichte eingehen werde, der die katholische Kirchegespalten hat.”]
Walter Mayr has written for Der Spiegel since 1990, as their Russian correspondent and now their Italian correspondent. He is the co-author of “Minenfeld Balkan: Der unruhige Hinterhof Europas” [The Balkan Minefield: Europe’s tormented backyard] (2009).
Lemme ask you sumpin’
If the SSPX is schismatic, how could this Pope extend the right to say Mass, Marriage and hear confessions to their preists? Sumpin’ don’ match up. One this t’ain’t like t’other, right?
Who is he to begrudge?
1. The pope cites the liturgical demands of Vatican II, but like liberals depending on constituents NOT to read the constitution, the pope and bishops count on Catholics NOT to read Vatican II, because NO SUCH DEMANDS EXIST in Sancrosanctum Concilium. Further, Vatican II does not identify itself as a “reform” council, but as a “pastoral” council, so to speak of “Vatican II Reforms” is to invoke a nonexistent demand.
2. Traditionalist Catholics are the only growing sector of the Church and the only sector where 99% of its adherents believe and obey Church teachings. No corporation would shut down its most successful branch. If the pope and bishops were a business, they would have been replaced years ago. Even Coca Cola had the sense to admit they could not “impose” a new product on a public that did not want it. Which leads us to the next problem…
@Steve Seitz
“…I believe that Francis’s decision was a political calculation that disregards the care of souls.”
I believe this too. But your statement leads directly to VII which was also politically charged and its intentional lack of clarity on certain issues. This, to me, is why even Martin Luther gets praise from Francis, but not pre-Vatican II believing Catholics. They’re too Catholic and that bothers anyone who’s mission is change for the sake of change.
That’s rigid adherence to chaos and the height of clericalism.
Sadly, for the sake of false unity, Francis seems determined to drive the Catholic right out of the Catholic Church. Ref: CCC 675
pgmgn,
I have two comments. The first is that most Ecumenical Councils have been politically charged. As far as councils go, Vatican II was pretty calm.
The second is that I don’t think Francis really likes Vatican II. I think he finds it to be inconvenient.
@Steve Seitz July 17, 2021 at 8:54 am – Reply
Steve,
You say, “I have two comments. The first is that most Ecumenical Councils have been politically charged. As far as councils go, Vatican II was pretty calm.”
“Political” doesn’t necessarily equate to loud and rancorous. With respect, silent but deadly is a phrase that speaks to stealth. ‘As far as councils go,’ means absolutely zip when you review the purposeful ambiguity bombs that are defacto separating post-VII Catholic teaching from any hope of clarity.
You say, “The second is that I don’t think Francis really likes Vatican II. I think he finds it to be inconvenient.” Your thoughts on the matter are immaterial as actions speak far louder and the reality that there is enough novelty introduced via ‘silent’ but ambiguous novelties being exploited to case this ground war. (It’s the silent thief that ends up stealing the most from your house.)
Francis finds VII convenient and that would equate to his liking it very much. While you may believe that VII is nothing but sounds, that is far from the truth and that distance from truth is what’s giving the hierarchy enough leash to hang us all.
Sadly, I think many Catholics find it inconvenient to have to tease through the intentional mess of a ‘pastoral’ council being restyled as super dogma that, ahem, changed nothing.
pgmgn,
Usually I’ll see an argument to the end. However, all of my energy right now is focused on dealing with the recent Vatican pronouncement. I completely support the Second Vatican Council, but debating the issue right now will be too diversionary and take up too much time and energy. I recommend discussing this at a later point in time.
If, as Pope Francis says, it is a bishop’s “exclusive competence” to authorize the use of the 1962 Roman Missal in his diocese, then many will do what Archbishop Cordileone seems to have done already today and told his priests “carry on.”
As long as those celebrating the Extraordinary Form are not denying the Second Vatican Council (which most are not), then, hopefully, all bishops will simply say “carry on.” Both forms of the Mass are valid.
There is no need to pit the Extraordinary Form of the Mass against the Second Vatican Council (by which is meant the actual Council and its documents, not some vague “spirit of Vatican II”) or vice-versa. Both Pope Saint John Paul and Pope Benedict clearly embraced the Council and wanted a more widespread use of the Mass as it was celebrated prior to the Council.
Sadly though, this action seems to promote further division, rather than unity. (And, early on in his papacy, Francis seemed to be working hard to bring about reconciliation with the SSPX.).
But Francis also said that the TLM communities are to be moved back to the Novus Ordo gradually. The TLM is to be phased out.
Incredibly, a Marxist Globalist Peronista Jesuit abrogates the Motu Proprio of a holy man in the name of the disastrous Vatican Council II. I am finished with the Novus Ordo mass.
goodbye, then, schismatic
Anonymous,
Your care for souls and unity is showing
Gratias,
Please stay in the Church. Christ, and His church needs you.
On the contrary, Anonymous’ comment shows that Pope Francis is very much correct: the spirit of disunity fostered by the distorted thinking in some people surrounding the Extraordinary Form necessitates the intervention of Pope Francis. God bless the Holy Father.
I see! So, what you are saying is that in order to save the village (unity) we had to destroy the viillage (unity).
anonmouse- Your feeling of animosity and perhaps even hatred for the Holy Father shows the divisiveness that has been sown into the hearts of those who only frequent the TLM and who belittle the Ordinary Form.
My note to Anonymous at 9:04 was heavy sarcastic. It appears that the software removed my clarifying remark when I enclosed it in two oddball characters from the keyboard.
Trads will simply win the population battle of Catholics because they have large families, modernists do not. All those people clapping their way through the NO mass will die off, and their children, if they did not contracept themselves into childlessness, have left the Church long ago.
Long Game, this is why.
Long Game is wrong. The Church is growing in places like Africa, parts of Asian, and even Latin America where the Ordinary Form is the “ordinary” (ie the usual) way of celebrating the Mass. The OF will never die off globally.
Monopoly is a long game.
If you participated in the Rosary Marathon, the two shrines with most attendees were Lebanon and Nigeria (of course attendance restrictions were in place, though, so it is not a totally fair comparison.)
Amazing how some Trads are now asserting the “primacy of conscience” in the aftermath of this motu proprio. Get this straight: anyone who does not follow the Holy Father in this is doing wrong.
Anonymous,
Oh, how sanctimonious. Ick! Now I need to take another shower.
A friend directed me here. I can’t believe how ignorant trads are about liturgical matters. They know nothing about documents.
They are not trads. They are traditionalists who attend illicit Masses. Which they would not do if they knew the Catechism much less documents about liturgy.
I can see you have never read the Vatican ll documents.
Abp. Cordileone informed us today, that “nothing will change” in our Archdiocese.
I doubt anything will change in any diocese. It is much ado about nothing. I don’t really see anything different at all from what is already done in my diocese.
Yes it will: the TLM is to be phased out gradually. The TLM can still be offered in some places for a limited time, but that time is to come to an end as people are moved toward only celebrating the Novus Ordo Mass. Read the document and its accompanying explanatory letter.
Hmm… that’s not what he said in the CNS news story:
“The Mass is a miracle in any form: Christ comes to us in the flesh under the appearance of Bread and Wine. Unity under Christ is what matters. Therefore the Traditional Latin Mass will continue to be available here in the Archdiocese of San Francisco and provided in response to the legitimate needs and desires of the faithful.”
Will continue to be available doesn’t mean nothing will change.
Things have to change if the archbishop will be obedient to the Pope’s new directions.
A very bad move, in an extremely worldly, secular, anti-religion age, where religious faith is very little, belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist is minimal– and so many have abandoned the Catholic Faith– or abandoned religion altogether. And the “nones” are growing by leaps and bounds! This will only further add to the destruction of the Catholic Faith, worldwide. The Communist Chinese and the Muslim extremists, who severely persecute all people of religious faith– will love that! And Asians tend to love and revere Tradition in religious worship! So-called “perfect unity” in religious worship is an unrealistic goal to force upon Catholics anyway, for a worldwide religion of many peoples, languages and cultures. Vatican II “broke” the former worldwide “unity” behind the Tridentine Latin Mass, encouraging local vernacular languages and customs in religious worship at Mass. And how about all the peoples of the 23 Eastern Rite churches– Ukrainian, Byzantine, Maronite, Syro-Malabar, Greek Melkite, Syriac, Ruthenian, etc.? And the Anglican Ordinariate?? And how about the silly “Charismatic Mass”– wildly, nonsensically “speaking in tongues??” Does that promote the Pope’s “Catholic unity?” And what about some theological contradictions of Vatican II, noted by scholars? Well, true “unity” is always found first of all, in all Catholics eagerly believing in and practicing the True Faith of Christ. Then, religious worship follows. And this Pope is always looking for ways to “bend” and destroy what he calls the “rigid” Faith of Christ. Useless!
My comments were cut off and I had a lot more to say. But instead, I’ll just add what a friend emailed me when we discussed this:
“The Church is over 2000 years old. Francis is 84.”
Enough said.
The Church is less than 2000 years. Enough said.
I say, Pope Francis is so correct in issuing this Motu Propio, and I say this as someone who attends the TLM. Using this beautiful Mass to divide the Church and cast doubt upon the Magisterium, specifically Vatican II, is indeed sad. I’ve been saying that for years in this here blog. People, Francis has got your number, and it irks many here to realize that. As I have said many times before, Francis is the perfect Pontiff for many here. He knows just exactly where to lead the rebellious sheep, leading them to where they would rather not go, but yet is actually beneficial for their salvation: humility, obedience, docility. Moreover, the push-back Francis is getting, as evidenced by some of your comments here, shows that he is right: the spirit of division is rife here.
jon, the sheep are not rebellious, they just have a bad shepherd.
Non Jon, ummm…that is absolutely senseless. Bad analogy.
Jon, yes, I have noticed the problem of schismatic ideas leaking into TLM attendees for over a decade.
One of the marks of a good shepherd is to be cognizant of, and to be zealous for the unity of his flock, unity with God, and unity among themselves. On this regard Pope Francis has fulfilled his charge with this new motu propio. God Bless the Pope.
unity based on terror and diktats is not unity all this is doing is building a stronger resistance to the modernist thugs ..
A “stronger resistance”? I strongly doubt that. Why? Because Peter has spoken. The Pope’s message (Peter’s successor) was clear and it was damning: that many who go to the EF exclusively have fomented division in the Church. That. Is. Bad. He has called out many people here for their divisiveness. And the Pope is correct. Abusing the Mass by turning it into something that divides is “liturgical abuse par excellence.”
For the sake of Eucharistic coherence, so-called Catholics who oppose this act of papal magisterium and who publicly state opposition and who fail to repent should not be admitted to Holy Communion. This includes priests and bishops. Do not weaponize the TLM against the Holy Father.
Hey trads, see you at my novus ordo soon!
“My” Novus Ordo Mass, Anonymous? Where is your love and respect for Christ? Ask for Christ to come into your life. The type of Mass does not matter.
I propose this website be changed to Trad Catholic Daily.
I’m so happy about this.
The Novus Ordo will die out in time.
From the letter accompanying this new document: to the bishops, It is up to you to proceed in such a way as to return to a unitary form of celebration, and to determine case by case the reality of the groups which celebrate with this Missale Romanum. Indications about how to proceed in your dioceses are chiefly dictated by two principles: on the one hand, to provide for the good of those who are rooted in the previous form of celebration and need to return in due time to the Roman Rite promulgated by Saints Paul VI and John Paul II, and, on the other hand, to discontinue the erection of new personal parishes tied more to the desire and wishes of individual priests than to the real need of the “holy People of God.
The TLM has no future. Obey the pope.
Anonymous, Obey? Sounds like it’s from the mouth of a shaming parent who has no argument.
Steve Seitz’s words here, and elsewhere, shows the division that has been rife in the Church, which the Pope spoke about in the motu propio. People, it is an eminently traditional Catholic instinct to obey the Supreme Pontiff. Plus, there is nothing that the Pope has written in the new document that is false, heretical, wrong, and evil. Nothing. The outraged reaction of some who go to the EF in response to the document shows that the Pope is correct in his assessment. These people have been called out by the Pope; and they know it, hence their feigned “outraged” reaction.
jon,
You made two statements that need to be refuted. The Pope has stated that he issued the moto propio because the TLM has been used to foster rejection of Vatican II, the Church, and other unsustainable assertions. That sounds like SSPX, doesn’t it! It DOESN’T sound at all like FSSP and ICK.
So, why is Francis punishing FSSP-ICK for the sins of SSPX?
Lastly, who are you trying to fool? We all know that you are highly divisive. In fact, I typically don’t argue with you for that very reason. Consequently, I’m not going to get into a contest with you of who’s less-divisive-than-thou.
I respect your decision to not go back and forth with jon. It is not edifying to get involved in a mud slinging contest.
It is not divisive to inform people, as I have done over the years in this here blog, that they should adhere to the teachings of the popes on life issues, such as the death penalty. It is not divisive to tell people, as I have done, to adhere to Vatican II.
Moreover, Seitz writes: “why is Francis punishing FSSP-ICK for the sins of SSPX?” Well, if the beloved FSSP and the beloved ICRSS are fomenting division in the Church, the are culpable of that “sin of the SSPX.”
I can tell you however, that refusing to offer the Ordinary Form, which the beloved FSSP and ICRSS refuse to do or even to concelebrate, is a mighty good indicator that perhaps they are tormenting division in the Church.
In celebration of this new papal legislation, and as a way to welcome all the TLM Catholics back to novus ordo parishes, I suggest that you novus ordoans hide all your felt banners, put the tambourines in the closet, schedule only boy altar servers, give the giant puppets a rest, and practice saying “dominus vobiscum”, at least for a month or so. Then you can go back to normal. Help the TLM Catholics ease back into normal Catholic life with an adjustment period. Out of charity. Rumpelstiltskin Catholics shouldn’t be shocked too much when they step into a novus orda church for the first time in twenty years.
The arrogant glee of Anonymous we wont be returning to your modernist gay clique as it decays into irrelevance…
Sell your stock in chapel-veil making companies. Bear market for those things now.
Please read the document before you comment about it.
Oh let all who thirst, let them come to the novus ordo.
And let all who have nothing, let them come to Vatican II.
Without money, without price.
Why should you spend your life at the TLM?
Having read the Vatican ll documents I find them quite beautiful. Latin has pride of place and reception of the blessed sacrament on the tongue is stated to be the norm. I accept the documents but I prefer the TLM. The language of the TLM when reading the side by side translation is sublime. I like to kneel before God and receive holy communion rather than stand and take it in the hand. I hate having to lick my hand after so I don’t drop any part of Jesus on the floor but I do it. I don’t have a problem with the council but I have a problem with the abuses. I don’t have access to the TLM right now so I go to the novus ordo. I wish they would preach on the gospels more though. I do wonder about this document, it’s so very rigid. There’s no synodality to it.
Anon– I am a different “Anon.” It is so true, that the “anti-rigidity-in-religion” Pope Francis, is extremely rigid, in this motu proprio. And yes– no synodality exists, behind it! And the great majority of the world’s bishops may have different ideas on this topic, than the Pope. He hardly consulted with them all, in a truly honest manner. Also, many who attend the Church-approved Tridentine Latin Mass– could care less about Vatican II, and have no silly “schismatic political intentions” at all. They just picked out a Mass they love and found a “niche” for themselves, in the Church. That’s all. Tragic. And the Catholic Church allows you to do that! The Church no longer requires you to register at your church in your parish boundaries, and only go there for Mass. They have for a long time, now, allowed parishioners the freedom to pick out their own parish church and Mass– and support it, too, financially.
Exactly. People would not be complaining about the newer mass, if some bishops and priests had not messed with it so much and not followed the rubrics that in some places it was no longer a worship of God but each other. Forcing people to hold hands at the Our Father was disastrous when Covid came around. Many of us, including doctors and nurses, were trying to tell people that but some priests just had to have it their way. And those priest who did keep to the rules on reverence, health and sexual morality were reviled as many are now.
“We reap what we sow.”
Anne TE,
Holding hands at the Our Father is a pet peeve of mine. It kills me. Every time I ask people why they do it, I never get a good answer. It’s liturgically mindless.
please sing “All Are Welcome” as the gathering song this weekend to welcome all the new trads to your novus ordo parishes. would be a fitting gesture.
Wouldn’t it be much more welcoming, unifying and Christ-like to sing a song which worships God instead?
Wouldn’t it be much more charitable, unifying, welcoming and Christ-like to sing a song that worships God?
@Annonymous (seems like you’re posting a lot. same “Anonymous” quite sure) Well, that comment about “All Are Welcome” – the anthem of the “New Church” the “Church of Nice, the Church of “no one is going to hell” the Church of Mass as meal, (and no sacrifice, so we don’t really need priests) the Mass of the Masonic Bugnini, – is written by Protestant Marty Haugen, who is happy to receive Catholic money and do Catholic workshops – but would not join the Church because of lack of wymyn priests and other breaches of the “New Order” that you all seek.
The song everybody but the choir hates.
To anyone bragging that your bishop has said nothing will change, at least one thing has to change right away, and that is that the readings at TLMs now have to be proclaimed in vernacular (English) instead of in Latin at TLM Masses. Yep, it’s true: Latin may no longer be used for the readings at TLM Mass. Read article 3 section 3, which says so in black and white.
Any bishop who says nothing will change either hasn’t read the document or doesn’t understand it.
The document changes these things:
1. No more TLM in parochial parishes. Must be celebrated in a designated location that isn’t a normal parish.
2. No new TLM groups, but existing groups may be allowed to celebrate the TLM on a limited basis.
3. All TLM groups must be guided by the bishop back to the Vatican II Mass for liturgical unity.
4. Existing TLM groups are to be evaluated by the bishop to ensure they don’t oppose Vatican II and that they produce authentic spiritual growth.
5. Vernacular readings at all TLMs from now on.
6. Priests must request permission to celebrate the TLM, and the bishop doesn’t have to grant it.
I heard Benedict agrees with what Francis did because Summorum Pontificum didn’t work out the way Benedict hoped it would. Trads used it to separate from the church and reject Vatican II and the novus ordo mass just as Francis learned through the worldwide survey.
The Novus Ordo trolls here make me happy because it just shows the true colors of the Modernist Novus Ordonarians, we are not “trads” simply Roman Catholics worshipping Our Lord Jesus Christ as we have done for 1,500 years. Again as the Rorate website said Pope will Francis will die but The Traditional Latin Mass will live on, this was a nasty and outright mean thing Bergoglio did yesterday and by the way before you get bent out of shape by me calling him “Bergoglio” it is he who never wanted to be addressed as Pope or The Vicar of Christ his words not mine. He is a bitter and angry Jesuit and has waited until he was on his deathbed to destroy the Mass of All Times, only he knows why his hatred for it is so strong, as Dr. Taylor Marshall said yesterday, don’t be angry and bitter about this but go out and attend your TLM’s and support your brave and holy priests who offer the Mass for is and he is correct! Why behave like the Novus Ordonarians here and Pope Francis with such venom and glee about yesterday, remember the Devil hates the Latin language and is frightened of it because it is so powerful.
How very sad that people have come to believe being the same is unifying. I am so glad the Church has always recognized the diversification in religious order charisms is a unifying strength as we see some called to be Dominicans or Franciscans and so on. With some 22 rites in the Latin church some might have to seek out a different rite like the Byzantine or Maronite rite. God’s will be done.
I would not call this website a ‘trad” website they are nice enough here to post everyone’s comments which is very fair! Cal Catholic may or may not agree with my opinions but they do have the nicety to post them and for one I like that. The Novus Ordo and TLM can and do exist side by side, the Novus Ordo is VALID it is just not for me like the TLM is not for Novus Ordonarians calling us “schismatics and other nasty names” is very childish and serves no purpose, however I will always defend The Mass of All Times that saints and martyrs died for.
Too bad you had the misfortune of living after Vatican II, which is when the Church decided to replace the TLM with the Novus Ordo. If you had lived and died before 1962 you wouldn’t have to know about the Novus Ordo.
Romulus Augustus,
Thank you for the excellent post. The two communities are at peace. In fact, I know many people who attend both the OF and EF in a seamless way.
This papal action is needlessly destructive. It doesn’t make any sense.
Well, the Pope’s letter and the motu propio should alert you of the fact that there is only one “Mass of All Times” and that is both the Ordinary and Extraordinary Forms. There is only one Roman Rite, with two co-equal forms.
“Heil Hitler,” jon. You cannot force people into a false “unity,” only a fake, temporary “yes-man” pretense of “unity.” And that never works. “Modernism” and “avant garde” beliefs and fashions of the day, do not last forever. They only represent the “zeitgeist” of the current times, and will pass. There are some things, however, that are extremely beautiful, rare and timeless, like the works of great artists, such as Michaelangelo or Mozart. I don’t think the “New Mass” falls into that category. It is a style of the Mass of its particular era. Best to be a follower of Christ, first and always. The style of worship is of less importance.
Anon. To your point: encouraging disunity, ginning up animosity towards the shepherds of the Church, especially Francis, casting aspersions upon any of the sacraments of the Church celebrated in the Ordinary Form, are never “in-fashion”, they are never timeless.
jon, kids of today are all scared to pieces, afraid to grow up. Instead of growing up with adult thinking and mature behavior, they all cower in the shadows of their immature peer group that tells them what to do. “Politically-correct,” mindless conformity
is all they ever do. And frightened modernist clerics and popes do likewise, conforming to the mindless, sinful secular world.
Talk about speaking tangentially: me thinks Anon.’s point is very marginal and tangential to the topic at hand. Going to the Ordinary Form of the Sacrifice of the Mass does not mean that a person is “politically-correct”, nor that a person refuses to grow up, nor that one is conformist, nor that one is scared.
Worship God, not the Pope, jon.
Worship God, not the rubrics of the TLM, Anon.
jon, nobody cares about rubrics of the Latin Tridentine Mass, or any other Mass. Most of the rubrics are for the priest. Most people do not even like to go to church– they find it as boring as a cold bowl of oatmeal! The reason most people that I know, go to the lovely old Latin Mass, is because they want to quietly be with God for a little while, practice their Faith, and kneel down and pray, and have the great privilege to humbly receive Our Lord in Holy Communion, which brings great peace of soul– very holy, beautiful, and sublime! Quiet, humble, gentle, older people of religious faith, some on walkers, in wheelchairs, or with a cane, in pain with illnesses and disabilities, and many older foreigners, too– love the holy, Latin Tridentine Mass. I am one of them! But honestly– again, most people do not even like to go to church– they find it boring! Now, do you want to start “World War III”– over that? Over going to church– and which church, and which Mass? Christ is present in all Catholic churches, and in all Masses, in the Eucharist! It seems that there are some very combative, conceited, ego-driven, hostile, negative, critical, weird people– who strangely like to go to church! — and want to start a “religious war,” defending their favorite church and favorite Mass, for all their favorite, highly-combative reasons and arguments! Just like the violent era of the Catholic/Protestant “Troubles” in Northern Ireland! Is that the “right” way to live, and to worship God? And Vatican II is just fine– they had some fine goals of world peace, brotherly love, and ecumenism! But what if another Council is called– and they decide to change things, again? So what? Just go to the Mass you prefer, pray, and worship God, and find His love and peace! Be nice to people of different religious views! The only ones you should really complain about– are immoral “bad Catholics,” like Biden, Pelosi, Becerra, etc.– and Papal favorite, Fr. James Martin, S.J.!
Firstly Anon. saying that “nobody cares about rubrics of the Latin Tridentine Mass, or any other Mass” is wrong. People do care, why else is there such a hullabaloo over the motu propio? The rest of your comment is irrelevant until we get to the part where you basically mocked the Pope for having a “favorite” in James Martin. That was divisive and disrespectful of the Holy Father.
“A papacy that, in words, emphasizes synodality, accompaniment, listening, dialogue, outreach to the margins, and consistently condemns ‘clericalism’ issues a document that embodies a rigid approach and then restricts, limits, and directs more power, ultimately, to Rome.” —Amy Welborn
And, is there no concern for unity around Eucharistic coherence?
I would much prefer a TLM with believers than standing behind Joe Biden in line to receive the Body and Blood of our Crucified Lord.
In fact, I’d prefer any Mass with Eucharistic coherence that didn’t distribute Holy Communion to those promoting the killing of millions of babies and the violation of their mothers.
The concern about unity seems very selective.
Bishops can’t be trusted to permit the TLM in their parish churches and have to send the names of every priest who now wants to serve the TLM to the central bureaucracy in Rome (known for its corruption)?!
Something, actually, many things are not right.
I notice a lot of comments here hostile to TLM Catholics and most of them have one thing in common: The person posting doesn’t even have enough integrity to use their own names (or his–I strongly suspect it is just one person).
All the hyperbole aside, it can be statistically proven that the only sector of the Church that has shown any sustainable growth, especially among the young, are the Traditionalists. The Church tried to suppress this Mass for 50 years and failed and this act of pastoral overkill will fail just as surely. We are called to accept suffering, so for now we suffer, but we are not blind. The Kumbaya Revolution of Vatican II is stuck in the 70’s. The ideas that reversed the immutable teachings of the Church never really sold. And like all frustrated liberals, angered when others do not agree, if they cannot sell their ideas, they will force and impose them. It is no secret that Pope Bergoglio dislikes Traditionalists, especially Traditionalists in North America. The sheer incoherence of his “rationale” for unity is only exacerbating the disunity and it is doomed to failure. In the long run, the Traditional Latin Mass is the only future the Church really has. This season of sickness will pass.
Just kneel down and shut up.
It should also be noted that the argument that somehow Traditionalists “brought this on themselves” because of all of this anecdotal bad behavior and intolerance is utter nonsense. The moment Bergoglio was vested as pope, this move was INEVITABLE. He has bided his time and now, that his time is short, he has made his move.Further, if you want to cite deviations of behavior, the Novus Ordo is rife with such examples in a way that dwarfs the allegations against Traditionalists, be it treating the indult for Holy Communion in the hand as a “norm”, the regularized deviations from the rubrics of the Mass, the clown Masses, the liturgical dancing, the absence of basic catechetics, the diminishment of the Sacrament of Confession…need I go on? Traditionalists are an affront to Bergoglio and bishops like him because we are the living evidence that there is no “New Church” and the “New Springtime” they continue to proclaim is an abysmal failure. Bergoglio’s Pachamama-tainted vision of a Church of “accompaniment” and “dialogue”, where proselytizing is “nonsense’ and people who pray the rosary are mocked is a failure and he knows it. His sycophant bishops know it. And they can’t stand it.
But make no mistake, this was #1 on Bergoglio’s agenda from the very beginning.
Romulus Augustus, I always appreciate your common sense, which is in short supply on this site. I love to read comments and childish name-calling of many self-appointed scholars who love to debate and show how little they know.
Right or wrong, the TLM will persist be it “legal” or not.
That’s disobedient. and Schismatic. Would you agree with Biden saying, right or wrong, abortion will persist, be it moral or not, no matter what the Church says.
I remember the good old days when “Is the Pope Catholic?” was a rhetorical question.
He is Catholic, otherwise he couldn’t be the pope.
If you loved this Pope you would stop going the TLM and order you own personal Pachamama.
How interesting that now the trads want the Catholic cafeteria to be reopened. They want to pick and choose what to believe and how to pray, no matter what the Pope or Vatican II has said. How interesting.
How interesting that now the trads are saying their consciences allow them to go to illegal TLM Masses. Primacy of conscience for the trads but not for the LGBTQ? How interesting.
How interesting that now the trads are pushing for diversity in worship when they oppose all other societal efforts to welcome diversity. How interesting.
Face it, trads, you’re just like everyone else: you want what you want because you want it.
Francis is focusing his papal sights not a church wracked with apostasy but rather on the small remnant of believers who wish simply to attend the Mass of their fathers.
Even non-Catholics are perplexed by Francis’ unprecedented decision to contradict his immediate predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI, who freed the Latin Mass and insisted it was never (and could never be) abrogated.
I think the Church needs to initiate an investigation at all levels about whether it’s possible for a Pope to resign. I’m referring to a true resignation – not just a mere abandoning of the office which is possible.
If this is true, it means that Benedict XVI is still the real Pope. It also means that a conclave would need to be held upon the death of Benedict.
Pope Francis is the Pope.
Anonymous,
I remember asking this question years ago, and there doesn’t appear to be a definitive answer.
This issue came up during the Great Western Schism. Back then, the solution to the schism was to have all the papal claimants resign. However, the Church did not elect a new Pope until all the claimants had DIED. The reason for holding off the election was that the Church wasn’t sure if a Pope could ACTUALLY resign from office.
Therefore, IF ITS TRUE that Benedict XVI could not resign, then Francis is an anti-pope. I’m not saying this is true, but I am saying that this issue should be resolved. This resolution will be especially needed if Francis continues to engage in destructive patterns.
It is not true. A Pope can resign. Canon 332.2
Anonymous,
True, I’m familiar with that canon. However, that may be nothing more than a preliminary finding. I’m pretty certain that this issue has not been fully fleshed out in the past. And, yes, it might possibly take an Ecumenical Council to fully decide the issue.
Steve, I’m wondering if your maybe not fully accepting it because you do not want to?
Anonymous,
I mentioned the issue because no one on multiple websites has given me the answer. Yet, I’m also familiar with what the Church did during the Great Western Schism. Do you have the silver bullet explanation that definitively answers the question?
Steve is 100% correct.
Catholics really need to investigate what Benedict did in 2013. We have to ask ourselves what exactly he did. Why does Benedict still go by “Holy Father” if he is 100% not the Pope? How can he give his “own” Apostolic Blessings if he is 100% not the Vicar of Christ? And if Benedict did not totally, completely relinquish the Keys of Peter, then how in the world could another conclave lead to a legitimate successor?
Mainstream outlets like EWTN failed miserably at addressing these issues. The faithful were basically told to just shut up, to question nothing, and just accept that two men can legitimately claim honors reserved to the Pope alone at the same time.
As I type this, there are 107 comments for this thread. Lots to read. I am not a “trad,” having never been to a TLM. Nor am I a theologian or liturgical expert– just an observer. And some observations must be made. 1. There seems to be a great deal of gloating over the apparent demise of the TLM; 2. Benedict XVI had a different view of it — a very positive one–and wished the two forms to enrich each other. With so little time since Benedict’s Summorum Pontificum’s promulgation, it is not easy to conclude whether or not these aims of Benedict were being realized. 3. The defense of Francis’ Motu Propio, that Summorum Pontificum failed, is therefore IMO more a reflection of Francis animus toward catholic “rigidity” and most likely the dismantling of Summorum Pontificum was his aim from the beginning. 4. The Novus Ordo represents the spirit but certainly not the letter of Vatican II. The documents themselves are much more conservative. 5. The dissatisfaction with the Novus Ordo is not necessarily tied to an embrace of the TLM, but to a loss of faith in the greater Church. The Church has all but lost the culture wars and ceases to offer, in the minds of many, an alternative to the pride and concupiscence of modern culture. The TLM, it would seem, inspires a greater reverence for Catholic sexual ethics. In the back of my mind I wonder how strong the nexus is between the cultural decline and the (if this in fact is true) the decline in piety in our churches. Would the apostate Biden feel at home at a TLM? Would an Uncle Ted McCarrick thrive in this milieu? I don’t know. 6. Francis is the pope who has undone the legacy of his predecessor. Will the next pope undo Francis? What has happened to the meaning of tradition?
Maybe after people stop calling Mass the Novus Ordo and other ideas from the schismatic sects are purified from Catholics, more freedom can be allowed. But really there is nothing wrong with the Moto Proprio. Bishops are supposed to be in charge in their dioceses.
Now instead of parish shopping, some will be forced to go diocese shopping.
In 2017, on the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation, the Vatican issued a special stamp commemorating this anniversary. This stamp pictured a crucifix, with Martin Luther kneeling, holding a Bible, on one side, and Philip Melanchthon kneeling, holding a copy of the Augsburg Confession, on the other side. Philip Melanchthon, one of the founders of Lutheranism, was the first Protestant systematic theologian, and the Augsburg Confession is the primary Confession of faith, of Lutheranism. Melanchthon is the one who publicized the story of Martin Luther nailing his 95 theses to the door of All Saints Church in Wittenberg, Germany, on Oct. 31, 1517, which started the Reformation. The stamp also honored the Oct. 31, 2016 event of Pope Francis’ trip to Sweden, to join the Lutherans and representatives of other Protestant churches there, to commemorate the beginning of a year-long Refornation 500th anniversary celebration. If the Pope could do this– then, surely he could also support his own Tridentine Latin Mass–loving Roman Catholics, too.
He did support the TLM. He is supporting souls. He is trying to undo the work of the devil. The devil always will make use of the fruits of the vineyard if he is allowed to. The beautiful, long desired restoration of the TLM got sullied by the sins of heresy, schism, error, disobedience, hatred, dishonesty, rebellion, rivelry, personal attacks on bishops and the Pope etc.
I assume, as in most cases, it starts with one bad apple. Sometimes people honestly don’t know they are sinning.
The bad apples aren’t going to change. Those who got misled by the bad apples will.
I wrote this last week, and I think it merits re-posting: Buy the book The Reform of the Liturgy (1948-1975) by Annibale Bugnini and read it with an open honest and reasonable mind. I first heard about this book in 2010 from canon lawyer Ed Peters who states of the book: “his[Bugnini’s] encyclopedic account of the reform, albeit with some expressions of his own bias, is unsurpassed.” Shortly after I saw Dr. Peter’s statement, Michael Voris had aired an episode of his “Catholic Investigation Agency” show entitled WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. Several of Voris’ claims on that episode just weren’t sounding quite right, so I purchased Bugnini’s book. There happened to be one being sold for $12 that day, which was very fortunate as the ones I see being sold now are $100+. I’m really glad I bought it. Chapter 20 (p.277-301) entitled “Opposition” was my favorite part of the book. He talked about the early history of the organization Una Voce and the actions of some specific members. It looks like one can buy or check-out an electronic version of Bugnini’s book on various websites.
Yes, JS. Great book. The author is the young French writer, Yves Chiron, born in 1960. Well, he is a writer living in our era– and is much younger than me. He also wrote “St. Pius X: Restorer of the Church.” He also has written biographies of other popes of the 19th and 20th centuries, as well as other religious books. Amazon has his books.
Vatican II is the law of the church. deal with it and accept it.
How can I say this without being offensive?
There are about 3 comments that are intelligent.
All you’ve done, and maybe all you could do, is prove why the Pope is right.
“How interesting that now the trads want the Catholic cafeteria to be reopened.”
“How interesting that now the trads are saying their consciences allow them to go to illegal TLM Masses. Primacy of conscience for the trads but not for the LGBTQ?”
With a couple of exceptions, the majority of traditionalists here are not calling for “primacy of conscience” or suggesting that we disobey this initiative of the pope’s. To compare that to manipulating conscience to justify what the Church has ALWAYS recognized as a mortal sin is disingenuous at best.
They are such as in San Francisco where despite the pope clearly saying no more TLM in any parochial church, Mary Star of the Sea is going to keep doing the TLM. They are asserting primacy of conscience to disobey the pope.
Like Paul resisting Peter to his face …
See: trads are hypocrites. You can never say anything against Fr. James Martin again, bohemond. You’re not any better than he is. You both want what you want even against the Church’s teachings.
I have not attended the SSPX, but it seems Archbishop Lefebvre went along with Vatican II until he felt so much had been taken from the mass that it was no longer the Catholic mass of his forefathers but Thomas Cranmer’s liturgy and refused to say it In many cases the new mass HAS become Cranmer’s liturgy as in so-called Catholic Masses where transubstantiation and the mass as a sacrifice is denied or not taught, along with divorce without an annulment being encouraged.
Breaking with the Past by Abbot Francis Aiden Gasquet explains what Cranmer did. Very enlightening!
History is interesting and Abbot Gasquet is controversial. Archbishop Lefebvre led a lot of people astray. If he had not ordained bishops illicitly and against the orders of Saint John Paul II, his story would have ended differently.
Remember, the Church has made many attempts to reconcile with SSPX. They refuse.
Maybe they do not want to reconcile when they see people like Fr. James Martin pushing perverted marriages and being rewarded. Maybe they do not want to reconcile when they see heresies such as “the Virgin Mary was engaged to St. Joseph”, which would make her an unwed mother, instead of “the Virgin Mary was betrothed to St. Joseph”, which would make her a married woman who had not yet lived with her husband, in the newer Bibles and prayer books. Words have meanings.
Totus tuus.
I agree. I admire Abp. Lefebvre, and have read several books of his, including his autobiography– and have a couple of films (DVDs) on his life. He was very faithful to Catholic teaching, similar to Abp. Fulton J. Sheen, my favorite. And he was a very good catechist in his missionary work. I also have two DVD films of his life. During the late 1960s was a very scary era. There were scary student political uprisings in Europe, as well as in America. In 1969, after seeing seminary students in his Paris seminary becoming active in student Communist-type riots, Abp. Lefebvre was scared, and decided to stop saying the New Mass, and form a society to teach these seminarians their true, traditional Catholic Faith, and turn out good priests. He was very concerned about the effects of Vatican II, and the New Mass. And the crazy, student Communist riots, which his Parisian French seminarians also joined! Everything was getting crazy, out of control! It was a very scary time! So– that was how his SSPX began. I can see both his point of view, and the Vatican’s point of view. They each had good reasons for what they did. Very unfortunate historical era, in many ways, for both sides. You know, some Saints– like St. Joan of Arc– were originally declared heretics by the Church, but many decades or even centuries later, they were viewed as mistakenly vilified and wronged during their eras — and were then made Saints, by the Church. So perhaps in a later historical era, Abp. Lefebvre may be viewed differently– one never knows. I would not join as a “regular” member of an SSPX chapel, but it’s fine to occasionally attend one of their Masses. Anyway, I always admired what poor Abp. Lefebvre tried to do– even if he was “vilified” by the Vatican! He was still friends with Pope St. John Paul II, then-Card. Ratzinger, and others, when he died.
Sorry– in my above post on July 19th at 4:43am, I meant to say, the French Seminary in Rome. There were student uprisings and riots all over the world, during that time. In 1968-69, the Communist flag flew over the French Seminary, in Rome!
In the first sentence of my above post, at 4:43 am on July 19th, I meant to say– I agree with what Anne TE said in her pust!
This is what happens. Things start off good or Ok then they devolve. I am sure if anyone had told Archbishop Lefebvre in 1950 that he would become a schismatic, he would have been extremely offended.
Sorry– another “typo,” in my post of July 19, at 8:49 am– the word “post” was misspelled!
Poor Thomas Cranmer! Burned at the stake for his heretical Protestantism by Catholic Queen, “Bloody Mary!” He had a lovely Anglican “Book of Common Prayer.” Too bad he went along with King Henry VIII, as Archbishop of Canterbury– and broke with Rome, and “became Protestant!” While poor St. Thomas More was a faithful Catholic, declared “treasonous,” and beheaded! That is why, learning all this history in school, long ago– I do not like religious quarrels! Isn’t it all just horrible?
Vatican 2 did not advocate for Communion in the hand or altar girls. Both came about due to disobedience and liturgical abuses that bishops chose not to control. I don’t see liberals saying anything against that disobedience.
The Church is not a democracy. The Church is not about identifying as Catholic based on what form of the Mass you attend. The Church is not a bunch of special interest groups.
Matthew 8:8-10
The centurion said in reply,* “Lord, I am not worthy to have you enter under my roof; only say the word and my servant will be healed.
For I too am a person subject to authority, with soldiers subject to me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come here,’ and he comes; and to my slave, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Amen, I say to you, in no one in Israel have I found such faith.
It is unfortunate that Pope Francis handled this matter in the manner. I think there needs to be more freedom in the Church with regards to the liturgy. If Catholics want the traditional Latin mass – fine…Let them have it. If Catholics want to attend a folk Mass…fine, offer it! If Catholics want to attend a Mass inspired by rock music…fine, be courageous and develop it! The unity of the Mass is the Eucharist…not the language in which it is celebrated or the music provided.
Vatican II gave us the Mass we are supposed to use.
Anonymous,
True statement. But it’s also true that Vatican II charged the Pope to develop the new Mass for the care of souls. As I know from firsthand experience, the TLM is necessary for the care of some souls. To say that only one type of Mass is appropriate is contrary to the true spirit of Vatican II.
What if I said Mass in Klingon is necessary for the care of my soul? Would the Church have to provide that?
Anonymous,
No, I agree that it wouldn’t. Then again, having the Mass said in Klingon doesn’t have a very good track record: the TLM does.
Let me be frank. I’m not a Trid, and I prefer the Mass in the vernacular. I, personally, do best with the Mass in English. However, FSSP and the Institute of Christ the King are doing something incredibly right. This has a lot to do with good catechesis, motivated parishioners, and a liturgy with a profound respect and honor for God.
I strongly suspect that a future Pope could make changes to the TLM that blend it with the revisions requested by Vatican II, and that FSSP and ICK would be okay with it. This would be especially true if FSSP and ICK gave major input on the changes. Sadly, for the current Pope, I think the motu propio has poisoned the well.
Steve Seitz, the Pope has done what is best for souls. I am sure it is probably 1% of Latin Mass attendees who are the heretics and schismatics but they were dumb enough to argue with bishops on Twitter and post their foolish thoughts online.
Next time you got a good thing going, keep quiet and don’t attack the Church.
Anonymous,
I’m not familiar with Trids attacking Francis. It sounds like Francis has a punishing vindictive streak! Is this good for the care of souls? Or was he seeking revenge.
Also, did the Pope care enough to differentiate FSSP-ICK from SSPX? I, myself, have had many divisive encounters with SSPX. They have issues with unity and Vatican II. My experiences with FSSP-ICK, on the other hand, have been very positive. They are very much Catholic.
Seitz: When a responsible and good physician sees a lethal and malignant cancer upon the body of a patient over whose care he has charge, such a caring physician must intervene without hesitation, and severely if needed. That is what the Pope has done concerning this issue for the health of the Body of Christ. He acted swiftly and decisively for the growth is deadly, dividing the Body and creating animosity within itself.
As for the beloved FSSP and the beloved ICRSS, I have commented about them elsewhere here. But suffice it to say, that those two groups have likewise cultivated doubts against the Council and the Pope, as well as suspicion for the Ordinary Form. Just ask with the Archbishop of Dijon.
jon,
I’m so glad that you think the Pope cares enough to cut out the cancer. What I want to know is when he’s going to cut out the leprosy in Germany. Forecast?
Why would you be worried over the German bishops over which you have no control? You should worry more about your own feelings of antipathy, disrespect and/or suspicion over the Holy Father over which you have control.
jon,
I think you argue in a needlessly divisive way. Everyone has times when they misunderstand people’s words or intentions, and they respond in a needlessly aggressive way. Sometimes, tempers get a bit short. I regret to say that I’ve been guilty of this from time to time as well. For you, though, this seems to be the norm. I invite you to change your ways. By the way, I’m not responding any further.
So what are you going to do? Are you going to do the tough work and reflect on this? Or are you going to take the easy way out and inject more poison into the well.
Seitz, the change that needs to be done here is in the hearts and minds of those who go to the TLM and have allowed feelings of divisiveness, contempt, and suspicion against the Pope, Vatican II, the Ordinary Form and most bishops. The release of this motu propio could be a great occasion for these people to self-reflect and figure where and how they have injured the unity of the Church in their hearts and in their communities; and occasion to repent and change their own ways.
Madam: They were indeed given freedom. The Mass of John XXIII was liberalized so that any priest who knows it may offer it without permission from his bishop. What some did with that freedom is abuse it by fomenting division in the Church.
Too many posts to keep track of. So I’ll just say here. I’m glad the TLM will be removed. Vatican II was 60 years ago. Why are we still living and praying as if it’s 1950? Vatican II was about making the church up to date. Pope Francis gets it. Thank God.
In the United States very little will change in practice with the TLM. The U.S. Bishops are cognizant of the very wealthy donors who support and fund the TLM. The Bishops will not bite the hands that feed them. The next Pope will undoubtedly overturn Pope Francis’s motu proprio and return to the practices put in place by Pope Benedict XVI. Most Bishops will ignore this motu proprio and the TLM will continue to be offered.
The main problem that Francis is fixing is that TLM Catholics think they are holier than thou.
How utterly discouraging this “discussion” is to folks just trying to live their faith. There are so many challenges to the Church that continues to be identified by its scandals and disunity. Seriously folks, where do you think the Church is going to be in another generation of secularism and pandering “devout” Catholic politicians. Maybe reduced in # by 30-50% while the wanna bees carry on about who is the actual Pope and what form of mass is approved and whether holding hands or folding hands is “approved”, which bishop, cardinal, prelate, one considers authoritative, etc. I don’t have a “side” in this game – carry on while Rome burns. I will pray that the scripturalists find pastoral wisdom to help the sheep find their way and sustain the Church in these challenging times.
Yes, and while the Catholic Church collapses, you scripturalists will have the honor of inheriting a lot of believers who show contempt for anyone who values obedience to God.
Don’t touch my Booty, what is a scripturalist?
I assumed that the kind gentleman above was taking about Bible only Christians. To be fair, I will willing to admit that my assumption might prove to be wrong. I can appreciate the higher level of decorum that was exhibited by the gentleman above.
Ok. I’ll ask him or her.
DJonas, what is a scripturalist?
The Pope’s supporters are arguing that reverent and pious worship of God foments division in the Church. The corollary then, is that the Church is scandalized by the pious and reverent worship of God.
No. Reverent and pious worship of God is not the issue. And you know it.
The Latin Mass is ordered to the pious and reverent worship of God. The Pope is suppressing it in favor of the N.O. Mass that is often surrounded by a culture of scandal that those who love God are fleeing from.
I do not think “suppressing” is an accurate term.
There is no such thing as an N.O. Mass and your use of the term is an indicator of why Pope Francis took the steps he did.
I have seen that term spreading and it is an indication of how far the thoughts of the schismatics are spreading.
If you love God, why don’t you stay where He is like Mary at the foot of the Cross?
There is nothing wrong with the Ordinary form of the Roman Rite. Priests are supposed to follow it exactly, but as we all know, some take liberties.
Just like Jesus said: It is inevitable that there will be scandal.
Scandal are those things which lead others into sin.
Self will is death.
In the old days, you attended your assigned parish and if something wasn’t right, you prayed. You made sacrifices.
The N.O. Mass is watered down worship that appeals to watered down Catholics who are often involved in scandals that embarrass the Church. How you worship says a lot about how much you love God.
Because there were no scandals in the Church until 1970. Tell it to St. Joan of Arc.
Yep. “Don’t touch’s” words there are inappropriate, hateful, divisive, judgmental. For some reason he/she felt that he/she is without sin, and therefore feels worthy enough to cast a stone.
There is nothing inappropriate about being opposed to a culture of systematic disobedience to God that is often associated with the N.O. Mass. For some reason, jon is not bothered by the communities that celebrate the N.O. Mass that foment division against God. Everyone has a duty to obey God and keep his commandments, even the Pope.
Stop lying about the Mass. it is the same continuation of the Sacrifice of Christ that all valid rites are.
Because there were no heresies between 1570-1970. Tell it to the Catholic Martyrs of England.
You have heard of modernism, I have no doubt. 1890s
Accept Vatican II
Most people did accept Vatican II, just not some of the total nonsense that was brought in afterward that had nothing to do with Vatican II. We all know that Michael Matt of the Remnant and others are angry, but they had serious reason to be. Michael saw as a young boy how beautiful high altars of Catholic Churches, that most often had been built with the “nickels and dimes” of working class people along with a few wealthy, were ripped out of churches, thrown into driveways or dumps. His family were some of those who rescued those altars and put them to use.
“When I get up in the morning, before any device goes on, I pray Prime and read some Scripture; I go to Mass most days, and I take other breaks during the day to say Terce, Sext, or None (or all three if I can manage) so that I can maintain perspective and not lose my peace altogether—or lose my awareness of the one and only relationship that ultimately matters, the One on whom everything else depends.
• This discipline of prayer and sacraments has kept me from losing my mind.
That is the challenge of faith, is it not? Jesus says: Come and see. Take up your cross and follow me. Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these other things will be added to you.” Peter Kwasniewski. I do the same doctor Kwasniewski. father Richard Perozich
217 comments about the traditional Latin mass shows how powerful it truly is and can never be destroyed.
Erm, that logically doesn’t make sense, Romulus Augustus (however you felt that you earned that name we shall never know).
How is it that you, jon, refuse to capitalize your name?
I propose a new game that Catholics can play. The game can be played in person, by email, by text messaging, or even by postal mail. The game is called “Guess the Rite”. An example is as follows:
After the Vatican announced that the Church can not give its blessing to homosexual fake unions, many Catholic Churches in Germany started giving their blessing to homosexual fake unions. Guess the rite that is celebrated at those Churches.
1) The Latin Mass
2) The N.O. Mass
Logical error.
Dear Jon, forgive me if the name Romulus Augustus offends you. It happens to be a fascinating time at the end of the Roman Empire. Continuing on, I shall pray for the conversion of Pope Francis, popes come and go and I pray that we will have one that restores the traditional Latin mass to its rightful place, I shan’t however be crossing my fingers on this one.