The following story was sent out by the Sacramento 40 Days for Life group on October 13 with this note: “Patricia worked at the Planned Parenthood here in Sacramento and is now helping the Rachel’s Vineyard post-abortion healing ministry.”
My name is Patricia.
I have the best childhood memories. The only thing missing in our family was God. We never went to Mass on Sundays, never read the bible, and I had no idea how to pray the rosary. Since we didn’t have a strong religious foundation in our family, my mother practiced new-age beliefs and my parent’s marriage (and our family) fell apart. My parents divorced and my younger brother and I decided to live with our father. The divorce deeply wounded us all.
As a young girl, I was popular in school. I had good grades, won school recognition awards, and felt confident. I was definitely the apple of my father’s eyes. I noticed when I was 12 (when my parents began to have problems) that I started to pull out my hair when I was anxious or worried. it would actually make me feel better.
My father and I developed a close relationship when he was going through his divorce. We would go to the movies, shop and dine out often. In a way, this filled in the void for my mom. My father meant everything to me.
At 19 I had my first serious boyfriend. He was 5 years older than me and I cared for him very much. We became sexually active, which I was not prepared for. Looking back I think that the security, love and unity that was lost in my family, I tried to find in my relationship with my boyfriend. A couple of months into our sexually active relationship “bingo” I was pregnant. All my dreams and goals just went down the drain.
The one thing that struck my heart the most was the thought of disappointing my father. How could I do this when he is still grieving over his divorce? How am I going to leave him alone and also abandon him? The gossip in our family will humiliate him after he speaks so fondly of me to everyone.
That night I gave my boyfriend the news. He was so happy and joyful to be a father. That gave me a feeling of security and support so we decided to keep the baby. My friends at the time were not too pleased with my pregnancy. One of my best friends at the time did not have the courage to tell me in person how she felt about my pregnancy so she sent me a sentimental letter in the mail. The letter basically said that I was making a complete mistake, I was too young to be a mother and I had a long future to look forward too. Therefore, I should get an abortion before 4 months and a half – before I’m too far along.
Soon all my friends ganged up on me and felt the same way. I knew they wanted the best for me but it was pure ignorance. I was so confused at this point. I decided to proceed with my abortion and I would lie to my mother and boyfriend and tell them I had a miscarriage.
The day of my abortion my girlfriend accompanied me. I was very scared. When I was brought into the procedure room the doctor saw that I was nervous. She tried to calm me down by saying, “Patricia, I had two abortions myself and I performed two abortions on my daughter, she is ok, I am ok and you are going to be ok also. Look at me. Everything is fine. You are not doing anything wrong. This will only take 5 minutes.”
I have to admit I did feel better especially when she told me that she went through the same thing. During the procedure, as the baby was getting sucked out of my womb, I felt disgusted with myself and felt like the biggest traitor to my child. Deep down I knew I was doing something horrible, but, at the same time I felt relieved. The “problem” was taken care of. That night I told my boyfriend the news. I lied and said I miscarried. He cried and was devastated, but I expressed no emotion. The guilt and shamed buried my feelings.
As our relationship continued, my feelings towards him started to change. I was less attracted to him and I was unsure about him. At times I started to feel some depression and inner grief and I didn’t understand why. The clinic where I had my abortion encouraged me to resume my sexual relationship but this time practicing safe sex. They gave me birth control pills, but, I was taking them irresponsibly. 4 or 5 months after my abortion “round two” I was pregnant for the second time. How could I be such an idiot and put myself in this same situation? Immediately I knew I was not going to keep this child. I booked my appointment at Planned Parenthood because it would be embarrassing to go back to the clinic I just recently had my first abortion at. What would they think of me? This abortion was quick, emotion-less and no one knew about it. I still felt ashamed of myself.
The relationship with my boyfriend (on my end) worsened. I had a hard time kissing him or being affectionate. I felt disgusted by him. As my depression and grief increased, I felt more distant from my boyfriend.
6 months later, you guessed it, I was pregnant for the third time. I gave my boyfriend the news again and he was so excited. I gave him all my reason on why we should not have this baby and basically forced him to go with me to the abortion clinic. He did not want to but he was scared I would leave him.
During the third abortion I was very emotional. My boyfriend was terrified for me and he would squeeze my hand tightly. I looked up and saw the tears flowing from his eyes. At that very moment I thought to myself, “What a wicked person I am, he is thinking this is my first abortion when I have already killed two of our children. I am trash. I am a killer, a murderer.” Our relationship after that grew further and further apart but it was mostly me. I couldn’t bare him touching me. I waited a few weeks and I broke off the relationship. He was devastated and completely heartbroken. I had no emotions. He would not leave me alone so I decided to move to Sacramento, California and start my life over.
I needed a job in California. I saw an ad in the newspaper that Planned Parenthood was seeking a bilingual person for back office work. I thought to myself, “This is awesome – I want to work for Planned Parenthood since they were so nice and caring when I had my second abortion – plus, they provided me with free condoms and birth control pills.”
I interviewed with the manager at Planned Parenthood. She said, “Ok – we do about 40 abortions a week, 20 on Wednesdays and 20 on Fridays.” I told her I had no problem with seeing blood and she told me that Hispanic woman and African-American woman were the 2 top ethnicities having the most abortions in their clinic.
I was hired on the spot. My first day was on a Monday. Mondays were consultation days at Planned Parenthood. The manager instructed me, “You must do everything in your power to convince these girls to keep their appointments for their abortions. If you see that they are frightened and want to back out, console them by telling them you had one yourself. Oh, and never EVER call it a baby, a he, or a she. You call their baby an “it.”
When she said these things to me I was shocked. It seemed hypocritical and deceiving. Something inside didn’t feel right. I didn’t think too much about it and began counseling woman and young girls (in English and in Spanish) and encouraging them to have their abortions – giving them my full support.
Wednesday came – my first day assisting the doctor with the abortions. My manager that morning instructed me, “Patricia never ever tell a woman what you see happen in the back office after the abortions are performed. You must never tell the patient that we basically throw their baby away in the garbage.” I was appalled by this. Is she really saying this to me so bluntly? I didn’t know what to think.
With the first patient, I held her hand while she underwent her abortion. Of course she was crying uncontrollably and she nearly fainted. After the procedure was over, my job was to take the bag attached to the machine that was used to perform the abortion, empty the bag out in a back room and dump all the contents out onto a huge glass petri- dish. 5 body parts were to be found in order to give the physician the “ok” that the abortion was successful and the patient was able to leave the procedure room.
When the medical assistant who was training me emptied out the contents from the bag into the petri-dish I couldn’t handle the smell. She then grabbed a pair of tweezers and started searching inside the petri-dish. She then found an arm, grasped it with the tweezers and held it up to the light. She said, “This is one part -it’s the arm.” I could see the detail in the baby’s hand, the knuckles and the fingernails formed. She then found the second arm. I was horrified at what I was witnessing. I tried to act normal like it wasn’t affecting me. She then lifted one of the legs up to the light with the tweezers. I could see the small tiny hairs on the skin, the lines around the knees forming and the toenails. But when she held up the head of the baby, that’s when I knew I had murdered my three children. On the head I could see the nose, the nostrils, the eyelashes and even the eyebrows forming.
I thought to myself “My God what have I done? I was also lied to and deceived.” 20 body parts would get thrown into this bag and at the end of the day the bag is tied into a knot and placed inside this big freezer. It turns into a block of ice. The place looked like a holocaust on abortion days. I was falling into more depression working there. I would cry at my lunch hour in my car almost every day. One day, I left and never went back.
My self esteem was so low and I wasn’t that confident gal I once was. I started dating, what you might say was, a loser who was also a drug addict. I started doing Cocaine. I had experienced it before but didn’t do it habitually. I would tell my boyfriend that I felt a deep grief and depression and he recommended doing Cocaine when I felt those emotions because it helped to numb the pain.
My boyfriend then showed me how to smoke Methamphetamine out of a pipe. The rest is history. I became extremely addicted quickly. I was living a whole different life with different people. I didn’t know who I was; I was so lost. Little by little I started losing my possessions. I lost everything 6 months later. I was severely addicted to smoking speed/crack for about 3 years.
During those three years I would sleep in motels, cars, hung out on sidewalks for the night or slept in the homes of drug dealers or other crack addicts. I was around people who were deeply addicted to heroin, people who possessed guns and people who had warrants out for their arrest. I had so much anxiety especially when I was high. Of course the hair pulling trauma worsened. I pulled so much hair out daily, I soon had bald patches everywhere. I was frail, thin, and my bones where starting to pop out, especially my ribs. My eyes developed dark circles and were sunken in. I looked in the mirror and didn’t recognize the person I was looking at. I would just see an empty person looking back at me. I was a dead woman walking. I completely lost my identity.
Towards the end of my addiction, I would hear voices speak to me and I would speak back to them and argue with them. I was spun. One day while in a motel room with a bunch of drug addicts my boyfriend and I got into a huge argument. He snapped his fingers at me and told me to leave. I didn’t know where to go so I sat down onto the sidewalk in the motel parking lot. I then saw all my “friends” get into a car and leave me. I was all alone – with no food, no water, no friends, no family and no drugs. I sat there all day. I curled up into a semi fetal possession with my head buried into my knees and I sobbed and sobbed. I had nothing. I hit the lowest point I could possibly hit, rock bottom.
At that moment, I felt God’s presence looking down at me. I lifted my head up while still in tears and started to speak to Him. I told Him, “You are all that I have left. I don’t know how I let my life end up this way. I want to thank you for the beautiful childhood and family you gave to me and I’m sorry I ruined my life. Thank You for everything.”
As soon as I finished my short conversation with the Lord, a young blonde girl my age (22) with a name tag that said “Bonnie” knelt down beside me, embraced me with a hug, looked at me in the eyes and said, “Jesus loves you.” I looked back at her – confused. She smiled and said “I’m a waitress at the restaurant right over there. I was taking an order and the Lord spoke to me. He said, “Look out that window and tell that girl sitting on that curb that I love her and that I will never abandon nor forsake her until the end of times.” So I put my order down to come out and tell you this.”
I couldn’t believe God responded so quickly. I was amazed. Bonnie took me into the restaurant and with the sweetest smile told me to order whatever meal that was on the menu. She was a daughter of a pastor and she told me she would drive me wherever home was. And she did.
After being away from my father’s home for 3 years, there I was standing at his front door. I was so nervous and I shook as I knocked on the door. My father opens the door to see his little princess looking like a skeleton with hardly any hair and deep sadness in her eyes. I started bawling and threw myself to his feet and begged his forgiveness – very much the prodigal daughter.
Years went by and I would hear people talking about Rachel’s Vineyard retreats (for healing after abortion) or I would see a pamphlet from time to time. I would avoid thinking about going because I made the decision that it was not for me. I thought to myself, “No way, I already went to confession. Jesus has healed me and there’s nothing more healing in this area He could possibly do for me.” I admit I was ashamed and I was frightened.
When Valerie Fish, the coordinator of the Rachel’s Vineyard Retreats in Northern California called to help me register for the retreat, the tone of her voice and the love she transmitted made me feel peaceful and at ease.
When I arrived, the staff was so caring and loving. They made me feel extremely comfortable and welcome. That weekend was so powerful and transforming for me. God revealed many things to me and not only did he heal the wounds from my three abortions, he also healed the open wounds I still had regarding my parent’s divorce and my past drug addiction.
The most powerful thing for me that weekend was that I went in the retreat feeling like a murderer a horrible sinner who aborted three children. When I left the retreat, I realized that I was a MOTHER of three beautiful children that Jesus and Mary were taking care of and that they’re waiting to meet me one day in heaven. My heart was so joyful.
My first child, my daughter, is named Marianna in honor of the Virgin Mary. The second child, my son, is named Emmanuel in honor of Jesus. My third child, my daughter is named Rose in honor of the Rosary.
That weekend I made a vow to my three children. Since I terminated their life and didn’t give them a chance to live, in their honor I would do everything I could to stand up and defend life.
God has blessed me to be a part of the Rachel’s Vineyard staff and to share my testimony in front of hundreds of youth in the Bay area. God has also blessed me to be leader in our first Spanish Rachel’s Vineyard Retreats in Northern California beginning in October 2011.
But, the biggest blessing is that God gave me spiritual parents in Valerie and Bob Fish. Valerie has guided me spiritually, and, through her, God has blessed me to be His servant. I thank God for the opportunity to share my testimony. But, my testimony is not about me – it’s about Him and for His glory. Amen.
In my long time pro-life apostolate, lay persons have apostolates, not ministries, I have witnessed the power of the testimony of former abortionist and those who have suffered abortions, and they are the most pertinent witnesses we have in the pro-life movement.
Thank you Patricia, God will and is using you in a powerful way.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
KEN, lay people are indeed involved in ministries, in fact, many ministries. there is no sane reason to avoid the word ‘ministry’ when talking about lay poeple.
unless, of course, you prefer to see lay people as APOSTLES, in which case yourr insistence on using the word “apostolate” for their work makes sense in your mind.
I agree. : )
May God Bless Patricia and all the men and women who are “called” to healing at Rachel’s Vineyard and Project Rachel support groups. As an organizer of the 9 week support and scripture study groups, I can attest that souls are “transformed” by the loving mercy of Our Dear Lord. These broken women and men are able to reach out and help others who suffer from their abortions. Praise you Lord Jesus Christ. These ministry’s truely save souls.
This beautiful lady needs to tell all of America about the lies of abortion and ‘p.p’. Thank God that Bonnie listened to the Holy Spirit and took that most important step of obedience to God and went out to talk to Patricia, even at the risk of losing her job. I am having a hard time to stop from crying after reading this story and trying to write something that makes sense, so I just will say THANKS BE TO GOD for His Love and Mercy and asking God to have mercy on us next month and put Obamanism and all of it’s evil to rest and pray that Romney/Ryan will stop giving the handouts to ‘p.p.’ at our expense. America wake up and get back to God now. Thank you Patricia and stay close to God and a big thank you to Bonnie, may you come into the Church that Jesus gave us; the Roman Catholic Church. +JMJ+
the most enlightening article I have read on this web site..at this time in our society..it came at an approbiate time…God bless Patricia and Bonnie
Pattttrica, If your belief that your babies are in Heaven came from the Rachel’s Vineyard staff, know that they deceived you. This misbelief is undermining right to life efforts.
Your post is like a brick through a windshield, Warren, and about as welcome.
Warren, This comment is grossly incorrect, inappropriate and unhelpful.
Factually, we do not know _where_ aborted babies are, but we _do_ know that God is just and merciful, and does not punish the innocent for others’ sins and mistakes! Wherever thse innocent children are, they are in His Mercy.
Furthermore, it lacks charity to try to _falsely_ yank hope from those who are struggling to heal! Crushing hope does _not_ help the right-to-life movement. Wherever these babies are, it remains wrong to kill them! We often do wrong, but God can and does often bring good out of it, such as putting a murder victim in Heaven.
I have done just about every legal thing there is to do to defend the right to life because it is the most important thing to me after my Catholic faith and my own family, and I beg you not to post comments like this. You are very wrong, and you are not helping!
It is Jesus who separates the goats from the sheep. Calvin attempts the same thing but before the souls have sinned. Every soul is eternal. God does not send unborn babies to Hell, Warren. The only other permanent destination is Heaven.
JLS Warren did not state that they go to hell. Warren is only going by what the church has always taught about unbaptized souls, from what I gather. It think that people forget the spiritual aspect when one interferes with God’s will for that child to be conceived and when man interferes with that and decides to murder their innocent, we are forgetting the spiritual side of those actions. We may not know or hold all the answers but one can not discount the spiritual war of things but I am grateful for God’s mercy and THAT We KNOW IS GREATER.
I know that one huge step to fearing the Lord, is to be given the wisdom and knowledge of that potential spiritual consequence( to fear what offends God, fear of losing Him etc). BUT I can understand why many would dislike Warrens comments because it is something that is not easily understood and with trying to help a woman heal and be brought back to a relationship with Christ, then ONE MUST reach them at their level of understanding. The rest God will take care of.
Fear the Lord. May we return to that and love our Lord most high forever….to help us resist temptations and avoid sin….an understanding that we don’t want to hurt our Lord, that we all seek a relationship with Him and are fearful of losing that because of sin. Only with this gift, that God’s graces will also help us to keep our sanity, holding contempt for this world, finding that balance with happiness in our Lord etc.
The only way to heal is learning forgiveness and I think when a woman goes through something as this, she needs to feel God’s love, self worth in Him and forgiveness to move forward, the rest whether what happens is irrelevant if that is not what is in God’s plan. Once a woman reaches that healing, it was God’s grace that brought her there, to that truth, the rest, well it’s up to our Lord to reveal.
Jesus set the captives free. Aborted babies are captives and not captors. Jesus frees them from the effects of original sin. How can it be otherwise? The Church teaches that some unbaptised souls go to Heaven … This blows Warren’s false interpretation of the Council document. His trick, whether he is aware of it, is to take one sentence out of context and supply his own context.
JLS: You are wrong. We must believe the teaching of the Church given by the dogmatic Council of Florence: “Moreover, the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds”. (Denz 693)
God does not condemn unborn babies, Warren. You’d best try further reading of doctrine. Babies have not sinned, do not sin, and cannot sin. If you think Jesus sends unborn babies to Hell, then you can explain it more fully to the devil when you get there.
JLS, In descenting from defined doctrine you cease to be Catholic.
Warren, to claim that aborted babies are being punished in Hell is to claim that God eternally punishes unborn babies for the sins of others. Jesus tells us that anyone who harms the least of His children … His children include all unborn babies, Warren: “Who is my neighbor?” Ever read that question in the Gospel? That is the question you are dealing with. Can you really believe that Jesus excludes any unborn baby from His neighborhood?
As regards children who haved died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism., All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism. CCC 1261
Let me re-emphasize the phrase used by Jesus, “my little ones”, and note the sense of irony: the use of water to both purify a soul and to condemn a soul. Baptism vs drowning in the sea with a millstone around one’s neck. Warren, can you explain how Jesus, in his statement referred to here, separated the baptized “little ones” from the non-baptized little ones?
JlS, Scripture: John 3:5.
Tradition: Denzinger 464 and 693.
That’s all we have for authoratative Church teaching.
While hope of salvation is a theological virtue, presuming on God’s mercy is a sin against the Holy Ghost.
Warren, take a look at k’s post CCC 1261 states we have to trust in the mercy of God. To judge and state that you know aborted souls are in hell is wrong. None of us know for sure but I’m going to trust that God’s mercy wouldn’t condemn a soul such as those. It’s my hope that Patricia’s children are not only in heaven but pray unceasingly for their beloved mother.
Warren, Denzinger 693 is a quote from a letter of Pope John XXII to the Armenians in 1321. Another excerpt from that letter says that “certain editions of the text survive in the annals which explicity affirm after the phrase to be punished in different locations” that “the souls of children, without a doubt, are burdened in limbo with the pain of loss but not with the pain of sense.” Limbo was never official Catholic dogma or doctrine but was taught for many years in the Catholic Church. Pope Benedict XVI has approved a statement by a pontifical commission that says that “there is reason to hope that babies that die without baptism can go to heaven.”
Warren, you do not reflect much background in theology, religion, Catholicism, philosophy or understanding of Who God Is and who men are. You’re pulling phrases out of various resources in the way that fundamentalists do it … with little background context, little realization that what you are doing is called interpreting, and ignoring most of Scripture. Read also what k posts below about the history of Limbo and what our present Pope Benedict XVI says about unbaptised babies and Heaven. Also, you might want to reflect on what Jesus calls the Eleventh Commandment, part A, sub part “whole heart”. In other words try contemplating unborn babies with your whole heart; or, if yours is not big enough, then try uniting your heart with the Heart of Jesus and then reviewing unborn babies.
I much prefer to rely on God’s Mercy than his justice.
I find John Paul II encyclical Evangelium Vitae. Paragraph 99. a much more eloquent reference to God’s mercy given to us by the Church.
“I would now like to say a special word to women who have had an abortion. The Church is aware of the many factors which may have influenced your decision, and she does not doubt that in many cases it was a painful and even shattering decision. The wound in your heart may not yet have healed. Certainly what happened was and remains terribly wrong. But do not give in to discouragement and do not lose hope. Try rather to understand what happened and face it honestly. If you have not already done so, give yourselves over with humility and trust to repentance. The Father of mercies is ready to give you his forgiveness and his peace in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. TO THE SAME FATHER AND HIS MERCY YOU CAN WITH SURE HOPE ENTRUST YOUR CHILD(my emphasis). With the friendly and expert help and advice of other people, and as a result of your own painful experience, you can be among the most eloquent defenders of everyone’s right to life. Through your commitment to life, whether by accepting the birth of other children or by welcoming and caring for those most in need of someone to be close to them, you will become promoters of a new way of looking at human life. “
According to you, Adam and Eve should be in hell and so those good people who are not Catholics or Christians should be in hell even though they lived their lives better than those who knows God but commits sins or loves God just by mouth but not heart. He died on the cross for all not just for Catholics or Christians. God bless you Warren. We are all brothers and sisters so let just pray we all can return to heaven one day.
Actually Sinful before Jesus came heaven was not open yet but when Jesus came, He came to die for our sins and He opened heaven…I read that Heaven was opened for those who have passed before when Jesus died for our sins, I’m sure Warren knows this, actually what he quoted has nothing to do with what you just interpreted by his comments.
I don’t want anyone to think that I am defending what Warren posted but I just can’t be angry at him because he just quoted what the church use to teach…..why not just be kind and maybe enlighten one another in truth not in insults because some are adding malice to his comments.
I really feel that Warren did not say what he posted out of malice but out of charity. No matter how we understand these mysteries, we must understand that there are spiritual consequences, but we must approach with sensitivity due to how this world is, the unborn are not the only victims here but also some of the woman who fell for the lies of those who are working against God.
sinful, It does not matter how good a person is. We have all have sinned and fell short of the glory of GOD. A person has to accept and believe that JESUS died on the cross;the sacrificial lamb that stopped animal sacrifice when the vail in the tempel was rent from TOP to bottom. There has to be repentence along with belief! Baptism to a baby means nothing. Baptism is not a requirement to go to Heavenand no wherein the Bible does it say it. It is following the exampel CHRIST set for us at the age of 30. It was not when he was born. This response is not directed at u or your coment completely. I got off track. If a person gets saved on Sunday nite and is going to b baptised the following day and gets killed 2 hours after salvation;r they going to hell, NO!! AS for catholics,this will make alot furious,read the 10 commandmentsin a catholic bible then read them in a 1611 King James Bible .they are differetn. Who changed them? who has the right to? NO ONE! Vatican 2 cant change right and wrong either. what was wrong100yrs ago is wrong now no matter what Vatican 2 says.
Actually Warren is correct..but back to the story…my prayers are with her and I am grateful that she finally was set free in the truth. That is why Planned Parenthood is so evil.
I am still in shock at this comment ““Patricia, I had two abortions myself and I performed two abortions on my daughter, she is ok, I am ok and you are going to be ok also. Look at me. Everything is fine. You are not doing anything wrong. This will only take 5 minutes.” WOW how EVIL they are to tell her that and make her believe it was OK. They should be all on trial for helping this young woman to her destruction.
If it was OK to sue McDonald’s because the coffee was too hot and they weren’t warned, then let the law suits begin for any abortion clinics who so much use those lines to harm woman further….
Wow I just read Warren’s other post…wow Warren, how do you know that it refers to the unborn aborted innocent life’s? How about a still birth?
We must never underestimate the power of God’s divine mercy.
Abeca, Ditto. Original Sin for both cases.
I guess those mysteries in which we not know of….I will leave that stuff in our Lord’s hands and trust in His mercy.
I find it hard to believe that our precious Lord would send someone to hell because of someone Else’s sin’s, especially when another human being took that innocent life. I don’t even want to go there because I want to trust in our Lord and His divine mercy. Lets just focus on saving babies, saving souls and by teaching the great message of Jesus and His plan of Chastity. I was told that the teachings of Limbo was not something that was totally understood or even accepted anymore? I don’t know.
I don’t care, I just trust in a higher power, I am grateful that Patricia found healing in Christ and is doing all that is possible to save others babies and even other mum’s. Exposing the lie of the abortions industry is truly heaven sent. God bless Patricia and may God use her to reach out to more people before it’s too late.
Abeca Christain, You are right about Warrens post, WRONG. His view are strictly catholicand r strictly wrong. that church got off track along time ago and I am not going to go intoit all. No man is infallable not even the pope. People bow to this man and kiss his ring, ridiculous. You are to bow down to nothing except GOD and JESUS THE KING. The HOLY SPIRIT we cant see only feel. You know the still small voice telling u right from wrong. That is the HOLY SPIRIT that JESUS said HE would send after HE accended. The Day OF PENTECOST THE HOLY SPIRIT CAME.The Israelites in the desert wanted GOD to talk to them as HE did Moses. What happened when HE did? They were looking for a hole to hide in. It scared them to death. Paraphrasing here, GOD said it wont do for ME to turn loose on them again because it would kill them. GOD said ,I will send someone who you can talk to, and that was JESUS>
adams I love my faith in Jesus and His Catholic church…also I use to practice apologetics on people like you. Your comments mean nothing to me.
In all the mysteries of life and in this vast Universe there is one Truth. That man is a Spiritual Being before he is a Human Being, created in the Image and Likeness of God, wether they like it or not ! Gods gift to man is the Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit, Knowledge, Understanding, Wisdom, Council, Fortitude, Piety and Fear of the Lord. You will never know about any of these until you search for the Truth. Follow Gods Commandments and live by the Beatitudes.
Warren….you are correct. An unbaptised soul cannot enter Heaven. The innocent are in Limbo. They do not suffer but they can never see God.
This is the real disaster of an abortion.
Luci D’Mari that is what i was taught. That is why I can’t get mad at Warren, but I think that Warren may have conveyed in a way that some took it wrong. Warren was only correcting the error that many make by saying that their loved one is in heaven. If we can’t judge what happens to someone after they pass away, like we can’t really make a judgement by saying someone will go to hell because only our Lord knows their heart right before they passed, so it is also an error to believe that someone went to heaven. We can hope that they did.
I recall hearing from a pastor that when Jesus returns, that is when all the babies from Limbo will be freed or something like that. I don’t recall so please don’t quote me on that. I just want to trust in our Lord…everything else, it is in HIS DIVINE MERCY.
I wonder why the church doesn’t clarify better about the teachings on Limbo…..it may help prevent more abortions as well.
Some people may have been taught this Limbo thing or that baptism itself is greater than Jesus Christ, but both faith and reason defeat this false teaching. We should realize that the likelihood that we received less than absolute truth in our teaching is way strong. And thus we should continually go to the trouble to improve our knowledge, faith and understanding.
Dear Warren and Luci,
It is so sad that you both are so mislead on aborted babies.
For GOD himself created ALL SOULS for the bible tells us HE created us and placed us in our mothers womb.
Aborted babies are martyrs and they go straight to HEAVEN.
There are two great books I suggest you both read.
The Boy Who Came Back From Heaven,
Heaven Is For Real.
Did you know that in these great writings, you find the young boy met his sister in heaven that was miscarried 6 years before his birth that he knew nothing about. He told his parents about meeting her in Heaven and that is only one of the great reasons how they know he went there.
So please before you try to talk about who goes to Heaven and LIMBO ( which does not exist ) please go read and study on the LORDS HOLY SCRIPTURE and read these two great books. I will pray for you both to receive the HOLY SPIRT of understanding, wisdom and discernment.
Faith wow. Are those books you suggested approved readings from the church? You really can’t make that judgement that they go straight to heaven, Only our Lord knows that, we are NOT GOD. But we can be humble and trust in God’s mercy and hope that they are in heaven, like it teaches us in the CCC.
I always try to not to go there with these types of conversations because a speck like me doesn’t hold those answers but sometimes I do reflect on what our Church teachings and on the life of our Lord, the rest of those mysteries I just leave in God’s hands.
It’s not dogmatic to say that aborted babies are martyrs. I really hope that we are not falling into heresy here.
I like what El Gato posted on what the CCC teaches, all we can do is entrust them to God and trust in our Lord’s mercy and hope that they are in heaven. The rest is irreverent, because we have no power over what happens after a soul leaves this world but we what do have some power over right now is our charity and service of love towards the pro-life efforts in Christ.
Know that your efforts to be a legalistic, fundamentalist is undermining you.
You are in poor company. Fundamentalist Muslims feel that killing you is serving God, and fundamentalist Christians are wasting valuable time and effort opposing scientific proofs of evolution.
On a thread on this very subject at Catholic Forums, it says:
“Although we cannot know what happens to these souls, we can trust in God’s mercy and have reason to hope that they are in heaven. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) explains: “As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.” (CCC 1261)”
So, I think that you would be better served in showing love to this poor woman instead of your legalistic approach.
Does it not say in the Talmud that the punishment for adultery is stoning, but then Christ forgave the woman caught in the act.
Do you really think that Moses, Elijah and all persons who lived before Christ are not in Heaven?
Please rethink your answer.
Warren and all: It is my understanding that the “teaching” on Limbo was never a defined doctrine but something that was what we call “speculative theology” and something that is not bound for the faithful to believe. Further, it is also my understanding that the Church does teach that there are actually 3 forms of baptism: baptism by water (the one we are all familiar with), the baptism of desire (which refers to either the person’s desire or the desire of the parents, and the person was somehow preventing from receiving water baptism before death), and the baptism of blood (the shedding of a martyrs blood who dies for the Kingdom).
With this one could wonder how the child might fit into the picture. For an aborted baby one could argue that they have received the baptism of blood, in the shedding of their blood (one could say in sake of the Kingdom because their blood cries out to heaven for vengeance). One could also argue that they have received the baptism of desire as they themselves may have had the desire (we do not know the spiritual realities that may be present here even for a just conceived child who has no rational capabilities) or as their parents may have this desire for them either then or later (since God is outside of time He could be able to apply that to the child at death).
We honestly don’t know how they might be able to attain baptism but these are possibilities and I think maybe what JPII and our current Pope may have in mind in encouraging hope for men and women who have lost a child to abortion, miscarriage, still birth and other reasons before being baptized.
Anonymous that is very interesting. It’s all a mystery to me, : ))))
I have never had any one explain it this way to me as you did on this post. It’s all interesting. JLS also brought up great points. I pray that I can read all your comments and accept them as human to human trying to figure this out but I also pray that God will help me not fall in error in regards to this because I don’t ever want us to be DE-sensitized on the consequences of all sin especially in regards to abortion.
But I do think that it is important to preach the seriousness of why abortion is truly evil because it holds serious spiritual consequences that no human being can understand, but they are deeply serious and not to be taken lightly. I think that these conversations can also help those who are of faith, choose life too, if we have the fear of the Lord in our hearts, then we would think twice before we hurt any of His little ones or even if we hurt our relationship with Him.
Thanks Anonymous. : ))
Anonymous, Blood and desire are also speculative theology; never taught by the Church.
Warren Goddard: All persons belong to God “their Creator “, first. God has adopted all people as HIS children. The concept that a newly begotten sovereign person of only one cell cannot love God in his whole soul and his neighbor as himself is simply no true. God reaches out to his children, the mother and the baby. In perfect legal and moral innocence, uncomplicated by worldly affairs, the child loves God, his parents, and his country, and is the moral and legal standard for Justice, the compelling interest of the state in preserving virginity and innocence. The child’s sovereign personhood constitutes the state from the very first moment of his existence. Human existence is the criterion for the objective ordering of human rights. Every baby aborted is a part of our constitutional posterity. Abortion is a baptism of blood as the child is martyred for being witness to Life from God and Life aborted by the state.
What a powerful story of the harm abortion does to all involved — I was in tears and trying to imagine the depths of Patricia’s pain. God bless those people who helped her climb out of the abyss.
I know how you feel, I was in tears too but grateful that God saved her. My heart broke for her parents and her ex boyfriend who had also lost his children. This life is so complicated due to sin, it is heart breaking that all it takes is someone evil to mislead another good soul. May our Lord protect all our youth today.
I actually agree with you 100% here Abeca Christian.
I often wonder why so many woman are mislead into volunteering their unborn to this. I know they are mislead but I recall many times growing up always having my guardian Angel by my side warning me to stay away from dangerous things.
Isn’t it our guardian Angel’s job to warn one of such things? Maybe many do get that spooky feeling not to do it but ignore that warning. I am grateful that Patricia told her story. It exposes what abortion does to these woman and how evil abortion really is. If this story saves one child from being slaughtered and saves a woman from this as well, then it did a great deed in Christ. We need to expose the ugliness of abortion. It happens to even the best of families. I still can’t get over the woman at planned parenthood that even after seeing the body parts they still refuse to call it a child. They are so evil, this confirms to me that everyone is right about how evil abortion is. It is a modern day HOLOCAUST! Poor innocent children, I just feel so helpless, I hate this world for it’s pro-death views on the unborn! I am disgusted with the lies they are selling to the unsuspecting, to the weak, to the ones who are fooled so easy etc. How dare they take advantage of those who are lost temporarily, they use them to carry out their evil deeds just so they can make themselves feel better about themselves, so they can kill off our innocent children! LORD HELP US!
I remember over ten years ago or so, during the time I was pregnant, I remember when we were praying outside of an abortion clinic, across us to the side another church was also there, they were not Catholic, but I recall a woman yelling to the women who went in for abortions, she yelled “Danger, please don’t go in there, don’t let them kill your baby.”. She was so loud. I felt that she was their conscience speaking to them, I recall offering up my prayers asking our Lord that they will listen to those words. I would whisper every time she yelled that “please Lord, may they listen to her and our prayers for them.”
All the professional bloggers are here now; those who would vote to kill innocent unborns because they were conceived from incest and rape. All your erroneous reasonings will never prevail. When reading the Truth, it hurts and brings out your pseudo morality, intolerance, hatred, intentional lack of understanding.
Jesus, Mary, and Joseph I love you very much and I ask that you spare the life of the unborn child whom I have spiritually adopted and who is in danger of being aborted.
Innominato?? What professional bloggers? Your awful! You want to go there? Well you just gave Obama another leverage to win…so as far as I’m concerned you just increased abortions! Your professional blogging reminds of those actions of the people who yelled “crucify him!”
Now aside of what Innominto stated…I really hate this indifference folks. We are a divided people within the pro-life movement and our faith, with this self righteousness and prideful comments how are we going to end abortion? Notice how this person came on with harsh false witness then ends with saying they love Jesus, Mary and Joseph and brags about spiritually adopting one who is in danger of an abortion. How do one hold those together without sounding too prideful? Some of the regular bloggers here, if not many more, have gone out in front of abortion clinics and prayed and reached out to women, have even been arrested for speaking up against abortion etc etc. This is very disturbing to me that we are this divided, I guess the self righteous have their own rigid ways and I can blame that one of many reasons why we can’t win this battle.
Abeca, I think perhaps this poster thought she was on Catholic Reporter’s website. Her post was obviously made in error, or was a deliberate provocation by someone with another name. I wouldn’t worry about it overmuch. They come, they go, muttering as they go about teaspoons, pants cuffs and Michelangelo…(shaking up some TSElliot…haha)
Dana you may be right, thanks I’ll take that into account. : )
Also professional bloggers get paid…we don’t get paid here…geeze….lets just say we are passionate bloggers, especially we hope to be passionate about the right things in Christ and hopefully to see positive changes happen! Moving in the right direction, may not be perfect, but we will work with what we have, with faith and prayer, that things start to move towards the right direction in Christ!
It takes a lot to correct error in man’s thinking, we work with those who may try to do well by our Lord, some just keep working away from God, those are the ones whom only take us deeper into sin.
Another four yeas of Obama would mean more of our tax payers money, our hard earned money, will go towards immoral things and our freedom to protect what is right, will be slowly taken away even more.
GOD did not create HIS children to be murdered. HE created us all to do a great plan here on earth to work for HIM and to save souls to educate the non believers.
Evil comes from the ignorance of scripture.
IF A SCIENTIST FINDS ONE LIVING CELL ON ANOTHER PLANET THEY HAVE FOUND LIFE !!
BUT ONE LIVING CELL IN A FETUS IS NOT LIFE !! HARD TO UNDERSTAND…
The baby has a heartbeat at 30 days or less. A HEART BEAT A LIVING HEART BEAT… THAT IS LIFE…
IF ONLY EVERY WOMAN HAD TO HAVE A 4D ULTRASOUND THEY WOULD NOT ABORT THEIR CHILD, THEY WOULD KNOW IT IS A BABY and NOT A BLOB OF TISSUE and NOT AN IT !!
WE MUST PRAY FOR THE CONVERSION OF THESE LOST SOULS DOOMED FOR HELL…. WHO ARE INVOLVED IN PLAN PARENTHOOD AND WHO PERFORM ABORTIONS
Faith you are right!
Ignorance of Scripture is Ignorance of Christ
BY St. Jerome he was Early Church Father and Doctor of the Church. Thank you for your uplifting post, yes we will pray and praise Jesus for helping us stomp on the enemy, every time He uses us to save babies and spread the good works of the pro-life movement and the chastity message.
God bless you sister!
All human being’s souls are created in perfect legal and moral innocence. It is the duty of the state to protect virginity and innocence. Pornography is a lie about human sexuality and perjury in a court of law, as is a fake husband, a fake wife, a fake mother or fake father of homosexual unions. Perjury.
Children conceived through rape and incest cannot, in Justice, be punished for the crimes of their parents. Only criminals may be punished for their crimes. Abortion imposes capital punishment on the child for the criimes of his parents. Let the rapist, the incestuous, be put to death. and hurry up, I am getting impatient with this injustice, idiocy and violent abrogation of our legal system.
Heavenly Father, Your love is eternal. In Your ocean of love, You saved the world through Your only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Now look at Your only Son on the cross Who is constantly bleeding for love of His people, and forgive Your world. Purify and baptize aborted children with the Precious Blood and Water from the Sacred Side of Your Son, Jesus Christ, Who hung dead on the cross for their salvation: In the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. May they through the holy death of Jesus Christ, gain everlasting life, through His wounds be healed and through His Precious Blood be freed. There to rejoice with the saints in heaven. Amen.
Perfect, lisag, perfect!!!
I remember reading once that future historians will write about this era as the time when humans killed MILLIONS of unborn human beings in the wombs of their mothers.
I really don’t know where the souls of these beautiful children go. There seems to be legitimacy to both sides.
I only thank God from the bottom of my heart that I was spared this scourge – sinner that I am. I thank the good sisters that taught me the truth about Jesus Christ.
Have mercy on us and on the whole world.
J1: “I really don’t know where the souls of these beautiful children go. There seems to be legitimacy to both sides.” Roe v. Wade denied the human beings’ rational immortal soul, denied the father of the child his seed and his parenthood, Roe also denied the child his Creator endowed unalienable right to Life. Roe also denied every citizen’s human soul. The human being is composed of human body and rational soul, to whom our Creator endows unalienable rights, free will and intellect. Without your human soul you and I are beasts of burden to the state, property. The government to deny my relationship with God, also called religion, violates my First Amendment civil rights.. Government did not give me my Faith, government may not deny me my Faith or the Person of God. Government is constituted by its citizens through the sovereign personhood endowed by their Creator. Therefore government is a creature of our Creator. Ceasar must be rendered unto God.
Also, Religion is mans’ response to the gift of Faith from God. Government is instituted among men to secure the blessings of Liberty to ourselves and to our (constitutional) posterity, all future generations, 53 million of whom have been aborted. Only the survivors of abortion are left.
Thank you Patricia for your courage and Faith.
Thanks to all of you for taking the time to read my story. Thank you for all the wonderful comments. Your support and love mean the world to me.
I can only imagine your tremendous suffering, Patricia. Isn’t it an incredible gift of God though, that He can take that pain and turn it into something shining and beautiful? Did your dad and mom come to a deeper faith through all this? Thank you so much for ‘dropping’ by :o)
May God continue to richly bless you and hold you in the palm of His hand.
Patricia, I hope that you can save some lives. It was hard to read your story, it was frightening and horrifying. It is hard for me to understand such things. God bless you and keep you in his care. Vaya con Dios.
Patricia, your story will help others so, thank you for telling it. Your work in Rachel’s Vineyard will help others, too. 1 in 5 women will have an abortion before the age of 45. The more the truth is told, the more women will be prevented from suffering as you have. God bless you.
Thank you, Patricia, for sharing your story and for the work that you do! May God continue to bless you…
Thank you Patricia, I really appreciate your story because I know it is touching another heart and saving more babies, God bless you always. You are loved in Christ for your great loyalty to Him and in Him. You are in my prayers.
Your story will help others to find healing. Your little one, in some sense, offered their lives so that you will be one to stand up and thus save many more. Their short time on earth had a purpose and you are fulfiling that.
I do not believe that God condemns a soul to hell because they have not been baptized by water. Many persons never hear of Jesus Christ and to believe they will not have a means to salvation is heresy as it is a belief in a predestination. God allows every soul the opportunity to return to Him, the end for which they were created. There is, after all, the baptism of desire and the baptism of blood. For the unborn, it may well be a baptism by blood.
Magdalene, It is the Sacrament of Baptism which makes us members of the Church outside of which no one at all is saved.
Warren Goddard: The human body is a sacrament. Human blood spilled because the Person of God is denied is a sacrament. “You are men sacred to me, for I, the Lord, your God am sacred.”
Warren, the eunach who asked St Paul to explain baptism listened to a considerable teaching, which you should be able to see when reading the account in Acts. Your one liner does not live up to any decent teaching on baptism.
A very powerful story.
It is hard to believe Obama is going to win California running on an Abortion/War on Women platform. If re-elected there will be two more Supreme Court appointments like Kagan and Sotomayor.
Gratias: Obamacare will dictate organ harvesting, euthanasia and letting old people die, without care, assisted suicide, one murderer, one mentally disabled.
I think that liberal people voted for Obama for various reasons but I think that they are people who are desensitized to murdering the unborn, it is their fascination, they fight for it with all their might.
I want to add that it is story’s like these that make me appreciate this website more, I’m glad that this website is using it’s resources for good by getting this story out, if this made another woman choose life, then this website did a very charitable and loving deed.
These articles are the voice of the unborn.
Nick. In the hierarchy of authoritative teaching, catechisms are way down on the list. So your use of CCC to contradict an infallible Church document is an act of heresy.
Warren, when did you anoint yourself as the infallible interpreter of Church doctrine?
In other words, Warren, infallibility rests in the popes in union with Jesus Christ, not in documents. Have you been in contact with any popes? Or are you interpreting documents that you read?
JLS, I didn’t interpret the dogma. I merely stated it.
Warren, as I suspected, you do not know what interpretation means. It means how you understand what you read. You demonstrate that you believe the authority is in some phrase that you can quote. Study Catholicism and find out otherwise.
JLS, As Catholics we are bound to believe infallible Church teachings as stated. It’s be bound or leave.
Not what the Church teaches, Warren, your spin that is. Your spin is lopsided compared to the interpretation made by Jesus. One thing that we all need to do, Warren, is recognize that we are not popes. We each have perspectives. Your perspective does not cover the whole vision, nor does mine. Yet you make as if you are God’s man on the blogs … PA is similar in that he always comes up with his personal refrain that he knows what most Catholics do and believe. Dream on, dude, but it won’t do you any good … unless you find a way to phrase your perceptions more honestly. Usually it is not the perception that is faulty but the means of expressing it.
No. If one denies the necessity of baptism, it is heresy. We are not saying that baptism is not necessary. Scripture says that unless one is born anew of water and the Holy Spirit one cannot enter the kingdom of God. We are talking about souls that were not born. The Church is saying that there is reason for hope due to the great mercy of God. It is not a dogma or doctrine; it is not a denial of the dogma. It is an acknowledgement of God’s love.
K I like the part you wrote If one denies the necessity of baptism, it is heresy. Good one! John 3:3 and John 3:6
Who has denied the necessity of baptism? St Paul says that all have sinned; yet this does not refer to Blessed Mary Ever Virgin, nor to Jesus Christ. Baptism is nowhere in Scripture said to be discretely and individually necessary for every human being. Jesus was baptised; thus anyone joined to Jesus shares in that baptism. The thief on the Cross was not baptised, yet Jesus took him to Heaven immediately. Each soul is created individual and unique, which means that each aborted baby is not part of a mother or father, but distinct from them … thus the ancestry of each baby does not hold the baby back from Heaven. What then can keep a baby from entering Heaven? Enough faith can baptise an entire mountain; why can’t it baptise unborn babies? Jesus wept; so why can’t His tears baptise the souls of aborted babies before He wept, during the time He wept, and after He Wept? What limits the baptismal power of Jesus Christ? A king once decided to hand over a whole living baby to a mother from whom the baby was stolen. He did this after he found that the thief was ok with dividing the baby’s body between her and the mother, because the mother rather would give up the baby so it could live. God separated the water to save His people; now some people want to use the water as a sword to divide babies between Heaven and Hell. I don’t get it.
Thank you, Patricia, for telling your story. It takes a great deal of courage and love for doing what is right and making amends to expose your thoughts and feelings as you did. May God bless you AND your children.
Perhaps this painful yet beautiful redemption story should be sent to every pro-abortion politician in office.This is why it’s so important that our nations govt. positions must be filled with God fearing people and not Godless secular or atheists.They have no morals..no ethics and no conscience..but most of all they do not have a fear of God.
I cried when I read this story. God Bless you Patricia! It is amazing what His Love will do for us. It is so sad that you had to go through all of that stuff – it makes me sad for all of the lost people out there right now.
I agree Ed. It is the lies of the devil that are hurting our youth now a days. That is why I appreciate the pro-life movement and the Chastity message because it helps reach them and hopefully before the enemy gets to them.
Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen said that aborted babies (who obviously die still in the state of original sin) do not have Sanctifying Grace in their souls, but do not get condemned to Hell because they have never committed actual sin. So they DO go to a “kind of Heaven” (the Church calls it “Limbo”), where they don’t experience the Beatific Vision, as such, because of lack of Sanctifying Grace, but do enjoy a total natural happiness for all eternity.
Abortion does more than destroy the earthly life of an innocent human being. It has eternal consequences for everyone involved, even the poor little innocent babies.
Grace thank you, that is what I was taught about Limbo but some said it wasn’t what most people talked about, you have actually explained it better. I think that if priests taught more on this subject, maybe more Catholic woman would think twice and they would do what all mum’s do, which is to protect their children.
I pray every day that the Guardian Angels of aborted babies are able to baptize their little charges with the amniotic fluid surrounding the baby.
That might sound stupid, because plain water (or Holy Water) is the instrument of Baptism, but there’s water in the amniotic fluid, so maybe God lets the babies’ angels perform a baptism at the time of the abortion.
Just hoping, I guess!
I do not see the absolute need for baptism, since Jesus shows us in His Transfiguration that people who never were baptised are in Heaven.
People like Moses and Elijah, John the Baptist who died before the Sacrament of Baptism was initiated are in Heaven. They had no choice. Was Mary baptized? She had no need to be. Why did Jesus insist on receiving the Baptism of water from John the Baptist? The Catholic Church teaches that “baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.”
A reader (k) from middle America writes in, responding to the dilemma whether God hates or loves uborted babies, that He loves them and they hang with Him forever: So, there you have it, q.e.d. Thankyou, k, for illuminating the question and answer of what God does with aborted babies. The Nine Choirs of Angels are singing.
K, The Catholic Church teaches that baptism is necessary all period. Watch out for those truisms which imply differently.
Warren, why do you promote ignorance even when examples are clear that you do not know what you are talking about?
We must be very careful what we post here about Baptism, we may mislead a soul due to personal interpretation. We are safe to follow the scriptures and what the church says on those matters, even the most difficult ones we don’t understand such as limbo, we must leave in God’s mercy and divine love. I can not deny what the church tells us nor can I add conflict to those teachings. It is wrong to do that.
I think we should just stay at topic at hand and thank the Lord for His mercy and His graces that Patrica chose to embrace. God bless her. In humility God bless you all.
That’s a beautiful idea. God bless you Grace.
Jesus was baptised in real water, and He loves unborn babies; that should be sufficient for them, don’t you think?
Patricia thank you for telling your story. God’s grace and mercy is amazing!
God bless you always. Thank you for telling your story that may touch another’s life. God is amazing!
Your testimony was so powerful! Amen
Aborted babies go to Heaven because their baptism is in blood and desire. There are three forms of Baptism, water,blood and desire
Mary: There is but one baptism as we say at Mass. Blood and desire are not applicable. You are descenting from infallible Church teaching.
Warren, “one baptism for the repentance of sins”: Jesus initiated it. It includes baptism by desire and by blood. Unborn babies do not commit sins, btw. Warren, you will never learn Catholicism by going about as your are, piecemeal and from secondary sources. Almost all doctrine can be found in Scripture, which is where you ought to begin. Every magisterial document I’ve ever seen uses Scripture to support its claims. The Church was not created by any progression of revelations, Warren, but by Jesus, Whom the apostles perceived pretty well. Why don’t you trust them? But unlike the Protestants, who memorize the Bible and claim it to be the authority, Catholics memorize the Bible and use it to try and understand authority. Jesus is the authority, ie “the author and finisher of our faith”. Jesus is alive and present for us in a material way … understand this before attempting to create your own religion.
There is considerable in Scripture, both old and new testaments, that is rarely dealt with in the documents published or preached by the Church. Instead what tends to the case is a lot of simplifying until it comes down to a few one liners. But Jesus spent more than three years teaching … How do we come up with only a list of one liners instead? Now, as St Paul says, man knows God exists because he can see God’s handiwork in creation. Unborn babies try to live, even before they develop their senses … this means they are striving towards God, which the Church teaches is intrinsic to human nature. So, obviously all unborn babies experience what is called baptism by desire. Thus, all aborted babies as well as miscarried babies end up in Heaven. How can it be otherwise? One needs to separate the “sales” pitches from true doctrine in order to obtain the truth. Jesus tells us to seek the truth. How can you seek the truth if you simply latch onto some fragment of something written, even in Magisterial documents, and think you’ve arrived? When you know the truth, then you will be free … if you know a little bit of the truth (ie, Jesus who is the truth), then you are a little bit free; if you know the totality of the Truth, then you are totally free: If anyone besides Blessed Mary Ever Virgin did, then it would be St John the Baptist, whom Jesus called the greatest among men. Jesus never excluded children, and even upbraided His closest and most faithful apostles for keeping children away from Him. What God has joined together, let no man tear apart: God wills that all souls join with Him in Heaven; thus, this applies to unborn souls … No baby has the capacity to sin, no matter the fact that all are conceived in a world that is damaged by sin. It is possible for a married couple each absolved sacramentally in complete contrition to conceive a baby. How would this baby be affected … think carefully. Odds are you won’t find the doctrinal answer very quickly to this question. Jesus told the penitant thief next to him on the Cross that he would be in Heaven that very day: Odds are he was not baptised … but by his confession and desire to please God, he was baptised by desire immediately by Jesus. All unborn babies express this desire, and none of them is hindered by a life of sin. If they experience the ravages of sin, it is likely they do so joined with Jesus as He experiences the ravages of sin. The human soul is greatly deeper than human documents, and people have always looked towards finding God, even before Abraham. Some elements of the Church would push the pitch that unbaptised babies will go to hell unless missionaries go and baptise them … I wonder why the faith is so often so weak that the faithful simply do not pack their bags and go on their own for the purpose to helping others seek God instead of acting out of fear of Hell?
AMEN AMEN AMEN,….
Just go and read :
HEAVEN IS FOR REAL
THE BOY WHO CAME BACK FROM HEAVEN…
ALL UNBORN BABIES GO TO HEAVEN WETHER ABORTED OR MISCARRIED… ALL….
GOD CREATED THEM AND HE BRINGS THEM BACK HOME WHERE THEY BELONG… WITH THEIR HEAVENLY FATHER, MOTHER and FAMILY….
YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT…. He forgives the repentant sinner and the one who has a contrite heart, HE protects the faithful, the ones who live the commandments, and the ones who live every breath for HIM
HE VOMITS OUT OF HIS MOUTH ALL THE OTHERS….Rev 3:16
JLS, that was an excellent post. Thanks for sharing those profound thoughts.
PA, thanks. You should give up on the gay issue and simply stick with the pro life issue. It is called pruning the vine, which should be a constant effort in each of our lives.
K: Denzinger 693 is from the Decree for the Greeks, not the Armenians, and it has no “other excerpt”. The Council of Orange, Denzinger 464, gives the same teaching as 693.
Pope Benedict XVI’s approval was of a study done by The Internatioal Theological Commission which is not of the Magisterium. Starting with a predisposition that aborted babies go to Heaven, the Council of Florence is first recognized and then made meaningless by massive qualifications, finally leading to sinful presumption as virtuous hope, thus undermining the doctrinal basis for combating the legality of abortion.
Warren, you seem to be writing from somewhere in phariseeland. Jesus spoke a great deal about what you are doing.
JLS it’s not fair to Warren, he is only quoting what the church use to teach. I do not take offense to Warren’s charity. I respect his comments, he stated what many of my devout Catholic friend’s have studied in church teachings. Now whether they be wrong or not, well it’s irrelevant to me because frankly I don’t know either, I do reflect but I have not denied nor totally embraced those teachings because I do not understand it and I do not want to offend our Lord. I usually stay away from this topic but on this website, well, I got stuck. LOL
Why do we feel the need to want to correct his thinking? Do we think our thinking is far greater in these modern day times? He is pro-life right? He cares deeply for the unborn and with his ability to reason, he concluded with what he learned from reading church docs, that abortion is a great evil and must be prevented. After going through all of his comments, he never once directly insulted anyone, I understand that in what he has concluded on said topic it makes people angry because no one wants to even think that they sent their children to a dark tunnel. That is what bothers people….but if we are going to move forward with our pro-life efforts and the chastity message, then we must accept even those who are set in their ways on how they have formed their reasoning/conscience in Christ, well I mean in this regard to this topic. Maybe the church has caused all this division because it neglects to carry on it’s traditional teachings or maybe they may have been watered down or washed down? Who knows.
Abeca, Changed no; watered down yes.
I’m not correcting Warren’s thinking, because that is not what he is doing. He is behaving like a fundamentalist in that he is tossing a few valid doctrines into the blogosphere but only to fit his act of damning others who practice reasoning things out. Lots of things bishops, popes and even doctors of the Church have said need to be clarified … Warren is quoting but spinning. I have pointed out several things which he refuses to account for in his spin. It is like: If one looks at the sky and says it is perfectly clear, and another says no it is not because there is a bird flying in it; then the first statement has to be corrected to account for the correction. Jesus presents an image of a great feast and the entrance ticket is spotless attire: Well, either that soul has to clean it totally or have someone else do it for them. Jesus has the power and authority to clean the spots off the garments of any souls He chooses to. So, who can claim that Jesus will choose to save some aborted souls and not save others? Fundamentalism, such as Warren’s, leads eventually to Protestantism.
JLS OK I respect what you are saying perhaps but Warren is only practicing what a good holy devout priest once told me, he told me that we have an obligation to correct heresy. I don’t think he means to come off as fundamentalism but can you see where our church is divided, Warren is only posting what the church use to preach in regards to this and how he understands it. I think that what prompted Warren to comment was the comment made about someone telling this woman that her baby was in heaven. We don’t know that….we can try to reason this like you suggested but we can’t neglect the fact that some have been Catechized differently than many of us. Whether what Warren thinks or what you have discerned in regards to this, is fine. I respect both points of view.
JLS I understand what you are saying believe me but I also understand the way Warren was taught as well….. I think JLS that his thoughts on this do not really lead to protestantism because that is what he learned from old tradition. It is more protestant to discount Baptism as stated in John 3:3 and John 36, when we are Baptized we do become members of Christ’s church. It is Protestant thinking to make a judgement that the unborn are martyrs and that they go straight to heaven, it discounts the spiritual side of consequences, as some have mislead these woman who have chosen to have an abortion. We can not make that statement because we are not God, Only God knows what happens after but as stated in the CCC we can hope in God that they are and trust in God’s divine Mercy.
I hope that Warren can reason as well on that teaching about having hope and trusting in God’s divine mercy.
May the God Almighty be praised and honored for His Mercy. Thank you Patricia and may God Bless you abundently.
I went to Rachel’s Vineyard in 2004 and it was the most profound spiritual experience in my life. During the retreat there was Adoration going on 24/7. Many of the women knew what the sex of their child was. I had no idea. I was told not to worry it would be revealed to me….it was. The name and gender of two of my children. I consider myself a survivor and a victim. Abortion destroys the women along with their babies, however, this wound can only be healed by Our Lord.
Patricia, thank you for your very beautiful testimony!
As for the babies, Pope JP II told us in the Gospel of Life
“The Father of mercies is ready to give you his forgiveness and his peace in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. To the same Father and his mercy you can with sure hope entrust your child. “
Patricia, I was tearful as I read your story! I think you are a very brave person to tell your story with such honesty. May our God con’t to bless/embrace you with His light and love. Please know you have saved many unborn children with your story and work! Way to go.