….While not everyone has the leisure to read through the hundreds of pages of conciliar material, there are certain passages which should be highlighted, in part because they counter attempts by those who try to ground their dissent in the council and its supposed “spirit.” The following are seven such passages that every Catholic should know.
1) “Regulation of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, that is, on the Apostolic See and, as laws may determine, on the bishop…. Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority” (Sacrosanctum Concilium, #22).
After the council, “uniformity” became the chief vice and “creativity” became the chief virtue. The large scale liturgical changes proposed by the council fueled the thirst for further experimentation on the part of priests and liturgists, leading to everything from minor changes in the prescribed liturgical texts to liturgical dancing and puppet masses. However, these individuals have missed the main criterion for judging the right kind and proper extent of liturgical change clearly enunciated in the passage above. They are condemned by the very council they invoke to legitimize their acts.
2) “The use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites” (Sacrosanctum Concilium, #36).
A friend of mine once had an encounter with an elderly Church-goer who expressed her gratitude that Vatican II had abolished Latin from the liturgy. My friend asked her if she had read the council’s document on the liturgy, and the answer, not surprisingly, was “no.” While Vatican II’s Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy does make provision for a much wider use of the vernacular, it also mandates a retention of Latin, even going so far as to say that “steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them” (#54).
3) “The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services” (Sacrosanctum Concilium, #116).
There are few examples of how directly contrary to the explicit desire of Vatican II many in the post-conciliar Church went than this. The last fifty or so years have seen liturgists act as if Vatican II considered Gregorian chant and sacred polyphony (also endorsed by the council) as the least suitable music for the mass. Their solution has been to replace it with a wave of what Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger called “utility music,” undermining the council’s attempt to make the liturgy a true encounter between man and the radical beauty of God.
4) “But the college or body of bishops has no authority unless it is understood together with the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter as its head. The pope’s power of primacy over all, both pastors and faithful, remains whole and intact. In virtue of his office, that is as Vicar of Christ and pastor of the whole Church, the Roman Pontiff has full, supreme and universal power over the Church. And he is always free to exercise this power. The order of bishops, which succeeds to the college of apostles and gives this apostolic body continued existence, is also the subject of supreme and full power over the universal Church, provided we understand this body together with its head the Roman Pontiff and never without this head. This power can be exercised only with the consent of the Roman Pontiff” (Lumen Gentium, #22).
Collegiality was one of the hot topics at Vatican II. Many in the Church wanted to move away from what they considered an excessive focus on, and concentration of power in, the person of the pope. Vatican II did indeed do much to deepen our understanding of the importance and role of both individual bishops as well as the college of bishops considered as a whole. Some, however, took this collegial emphasis to the point of undermining the power and prerogatives of the supreme pontiff as defined by the First Vatican Council in the late nineteenth century.
For example, in his book The Changing Church: Reflections on the progress of the Second Vatican Council, dissident theologian Hans Küng states that the Second Vatican Council’s teaching on the importance and power of the college of bishops was “a decisive counterpoint to the First Vatican Council’s one-sided definition of papal supremacy” (‘complementarity’ would have been a better word than ‘counterpoint’). The council, in fact, sets clear boundaries to the power of the episcopal college and emphatically reaffirms the ultimate primacy of the Vicar of Christ over the entire Church.
5) “But the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ” (Dei Verbum, #10).
Vatican II gave a great impetus to Scripture studies, especially among the laity. So as to not give free reign to individualistic hermeneutics, the ecclesiological and especially magisterial context for Scriptural interpretation is again stated.
6) “Though they differ from one another in essence and not only in degree, the common priesthood of the faithful and the ministerial or hierarchical priesthood are nonetheless interrelated: each of them in its own special way is a participation in the one priesthood of Christ” (Lumen Gentium, #10).
The post-conciliar Church has suffered from a major crisis of identity within her different states of life. Laymen and women now stampede into the sanctuary to perform those rituals once prescribed to the priest alone. Clergy have adopted a lay persona by casting off the collar, cassock, and habit in favor of the T-shirt and shorts, and – in the case of some religious—of abandoning secluded monasteries and instead populating city apartments.
This is, in part, a response to Vatican II’s new focus on the common priesthood shared by all the faithful. This focus seems to many to call into question the former radical distinction between priest and layman. In fact, many see Vatican II as helping to break down all of the walls formerly dividing the two (e.g. this blog post from the National Catholic Reporter).
Far less attention is paid to the first sentence of the passage quoted above, which states that the difference between the ministerial priesthood and the priesthood of all the faithful is not merely one of “degree,” but of “essence.” In other words, the two priesthoods are not on different levels of the same priestly spectrum, but, in fact, each is a very different way of sharing in Christ’s one priesthood. Whereas all of the Church’s faithful share in Christ’s priesthood by offering spiritual sacrifices, participating in the sacraments, virtuous living, and by proclaiming the Gospel to the world (LG, 11), the ministerial priesthood entails a mysterious identification with the Person of Christ Himself (acting “in persona Christi”), and so enables the ordained minister to effect the miracle of transubstantiation and the forgiveness of sins via the sacramental grace received at ordination. So, while Vatican II was indeed strongly opposed to excessive clericalism, it at the same time re-emphasized the radical distinction between the ministerial priesthood and the priesthood of the faithful.
7) “Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, [this Council] teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism, as through a door, men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved” (Lumen Gentium, #14).
Vatican II admitted to the possibility of salvation for non-Catholics (Lumen Gentium, #14-16). This created a firestorm both within and without the Church, as it seemed to reverse the Church’s perennial teaching of “outside the Church there is no salvation.” The result was that many questioned the necessity of the missionary endeavors of the Church, because if non-Catholics could be saved, why bother trying to convert them? And one hardly need to mention the fact that now practically every funeral is a mini-canonization ceremony.
There are two important things to note about this passage. One is that it clearly states that those who know of the necessity of the Church for salvation cannot remain outside of it and hope to be saved. The other is that, notwithstanding an acknowledgement of the possibility of salvation for non-Catholics, it also clearly states that the Church is necessary for salvation and that Christ is “the unique way of salvation.” This is important to mention because some interpret Vatican II’s acknowledgment of the possibility of salvation for non-Catholics as saying that there are other paths of salvation outside the Church. But this, in fact, is not what either the council or the Church teaches.
As a 2000 document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith makes clear, God’s “salvific grace … is always given by means of Christ in the Spirit and has a mysterious relationship to the Church.” The point is that those who may happen to be saved outside the visible confines of the Church are not saved in spite of the Church or Christ, but arrive at salvation some way through the Church and Christ. The council is, in fact, reaffirming the exclusive claim of Christ and His Church as the one path to salvation.
Many other passages from the council could be quoted, but this selection reveals just how far from the conciliar documents many in the Church have strayed. As we prepare to celebrate the fiftieth anniversary of council’s closing, we would do well as a Church to reflect critically on the past fifty years to see just how well Vatican II has been so far implemented, and to consider how we can be truer to the council’s teaching as we move forward into the future….
This story comes from a Feb. 10 posting in Crisis magazine.
Excellent article!
It’s always rung ironic to me that the part of the liturgy most spoken in ancient language is the Agnus Dei, which is the only part that is sung in Greek.
Sorry, my bad: The most commonly sung part in my experience is the Kyrie, which is the part in Greek. Though the Agnus Dei may be a close second.
Excellent article.
For those who want to read/see for themselves here is a link to the 16 Vatican II Documents.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/index.htm
In general and as usual, it is not the Documents that are flawed – – – – but those Bishops and Priests, (and Laity) who refuse to adhere to them as written.
There are only 5 or 6 sentences in the entire 16 documents that require clarification by the Magisterium – but they are important.
The Most Reverend Bishop Athanasius Schneider – “Vatican II Must be Clarified” (June 27, 2013)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8iBeaGeuxw
and
https://www.traditionalcatholicpriest.com/2014/08/21/bishop-schneider-criticizes-wording-and-some-concepts-of-vatican-ii/
Thanks for the links. They are very educational.
No Catholic should write about V II if they have not read the actual Docs,
AND the link to the few important issues as stated so correctly by Abp Schneider.
There should be no place for confusion or heresy in Christ’s Church.
I urge everyone to save the links.
I agree MAC and David V. Its best to always seek the truth. Reading them and seeking to understand them is key. One must have a good will too. God bless you. Happy lent.
Modernist liberals hijacked the Council, and time bombs were implanted, so the laity and most of the clergy would not object. Technically there is nothing really heretical about the Council, but there is so much double talk and contradictions that the Council can mean what it wants for both liberals and conservatives. The main exception is the document on religious liberty, and the document on ecumenism which goes against traditional Catholic teaching. Many noteworthy works were written concerning this, especially THE RHINE FLOWS INTO THE TIBER, which existed before the Society of St. Pius X, so one cannot claim it was written by them.
Thank you, “Father Karl”: The Council succeeded on many levels, including a true devotion to Mary (not mentioned in this otherwise excellent article). However, many, many priests simply discard devotion to Mary. In an argument with a senior priest who had just moved a statue of Mary to a hallway outside the Church, he said something to the effect that “you conservatives” need to understand “that things are different” now.
Liberals simply did a better job of destroying what could have been a much more positive experience for the Church. Their inclusion of the “time bombs” you mention has been noted by many, including Pope Benedict. The “ambiguity” of the language provides much room for improvisational work by the Liberals, and they have made full use of this.
Of course, with flabbiness in the liturgy, comes flabbiness in teaching of the Faith, and then flabbiness in the lives of all Catholics. This assured destruction of the present sense of what it means to be Catholic will surely come to a head in October at the Synod. Many in the Church, such as Cardinals Dolan, Daneels, Wuerl, Marx, Kasper, and Abp. Cupich and others believe themselves very clever in seeking to create new ways to please Satan by creating the concept of “discipline” by which to destroy all understanding of Church doctrine.
We can only pray that the Holy Ghost will guide Pope Francis, as He guided weak pontiffs in the past, say with Paul VI, who issued the glorious statement of Faith, “Humane Vitae”.
So you are saying that the Holy Spirit does not guide the Church and that we cannot trust the Church?
So if the Holy Spirit does not guide the Church in the last 50 years why would He ever have? Did He just quit? Is the Catholic Church what it claims to be? Can we trust what she teaches about God at all?
“Anonymous”: your comment is purposefully disingenuous. The Church has had numerous periods of unrest, widespread apostacy, war, evil bishops and overtly sinful popes — does this mean that the Holy Ghost abandoned the Church? As you are well aware, of course not.
Zombie-Liberals simply adore gaining political ground by convincing a bishop or two to adopt a crazy theological position, and then claiming that this position ‘was guided by the Holy Spirit”. You shoud have a field day at this October’s Synod.
No, it does not matter even if the Pope himself comes out and says something that is theologically wrong, such as during the Arian heresy (and at other times). The Holy Ghost is always with the Church, although it is clearly the case that His Pope and bishops do not always heed His direction.
That was no help.
“That was no help”
This certainly helps to clarify things
On video, Cardinal McCarrick confesses that he was lobbied to support Cardinal Bergoglio Feb 25 by Br. Alexis Bugnolo.
Wolves in sheep’s clothing are not guided by the Holy Spirit. They arrogantly think they can reform the Holy Spirit. Cardinal McCarrick admits he was guided and he was also asked to guide others by a very wealthy influential Italian man who came to ask for a favor. Loose lips sink ships and they also inform the faithful. Cardinal McCarrick is showcasing a scene from the movie, The Godfather. The Holy Spirit is allowing the corruption to be exposed. According to Cardinal McCarrick’s own words, it was a wealthy very very influential and likeminded Italian man who also desires to deform the Church and move it in a new direction. Cardinal McCarriick refers to the man as brilliant. Lucifer was brilliant too but he would not serve. Apparently It’s a quick five year methodical plan to try and undue what has stood the test of time. The rattling gates of hell will never prevail. “In the End My Immaculate Heart Will Triumph.”
https://fromrome.wordpress.com/2015/02/25/cardinal-mccarrick-confesses-that-he-was-lobbied-to-support-cardinal-bergoglio/
In the video, Cardinal McCarrick explains how the papal election is not really an election, but a discernment of God’s Will. that part starts at about the 24th minute.
Thank you for posting the link.
Pope Francis has a great devotion to the Mother of God. She is dismayed by the attacks on the Holy Father. Cease. Repent. Stop. Save your soul.
….a discernment of God’s will that can be ignored via voting for whom one wants instead of who would be best suited to defend and uphold the Faith.
“…[Our Lady] is dismayed by the attacks on the Holy Father..”
This is wonderful, to be able to channel Our Lady of Bayside, and to know exactly how “displeased” she is about “attacks” (that’s what objective criticisms of his now – many scandalous statements are mis-characterized as) on PF; but I wonder how much more she is displeased with the Supreme Teacher of the Faith for his attempting to dismiss her Son’s commands on the sacred bond of marriage.
It is wonderful to have such infallibly divine occult seers in our midst.
Precisely! Thanks Ann Malley. Yes, there are many ongoing problems which need the full graces and the full guiding Wisdom of the Holy Ghost. Jesus wants obedience to Him first.
“But according to their works do ye not; for they say and do not.” We have the promise that the gates of Hell will never prevail but when you hear the words “In the End My Immaculate Heart Will Triumph”, then you know that means an ongoing raging spiritual battle. Today a new ear tickling pastoral gospel is being lobbied for. Man plans and schemes and lobbies but “In the End My Immaculate Heart Will Triumph.” Besides, didn’t Pope Francis already publicly denounce the practice methods of La Cosa Nostra? WHERE is the prudence in Cardinal McCarrick’s troubling disclosure? That’s like someone saying, “This very influential Italian man asked me to lobby all of the other extremely powerful capos to do the job as a favor request and you know what… I’ll even throw in the comment in the end about God’s Will for good effect.” After all, everyone knows how those powerful capos have always obeyed God’s Will first. As the leadership in the Church goes the world goes. How’s the world looking today?
continued……..
May the Holy Ghost and Our Lady of Good Counsel influence and guide Pope Francis instead of lobbying vote requests from a favor asking “brilliant, very influential Italian man.”
Matthew 23:1 Christ admonishes the people to follow the good doctrine, not the bad example of the scribes and Pharisees. He warns his disciples not to imitate their ambition and denounces divers woes against them for their hypocrisy and blindness.
[1] Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples, [2] Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses. [3] All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say, and do not. [4] For they bind heavy and insupportable burdens, and lay them on men’ s shoulders; but with a finger of their own they will not move them. [5] And all their works they do for to be seen of men. For they make their phylacteries broad, and enlarge their fringes. Douay-Rheims
Thank you. This is exactly what I need to help the “pastoral coordinator” at our parish. God Bless you CalCatholic!
Am glad these people are standing up for the Faith and the unborn.
Too bad many Bishops refuse to talk to Latino legislators who are Catholic, and other Catholic legislators about their mortal sins regarding supporting laws for abortion, sodomy, contraception, pornography, etc.
And Bishops not enforcing Canon 915.
” Can. 915 Those who have been excommunicated or interdicted after the imposition or declaration of the penalty
and others obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to holy communion. ”
Of course recent appointees of Pope Francis – Donald Wuerl to the Commission that recommends Bishops, and Blasé Cupich either do not believe in the Real Presence, or believe its OK to commit Sacrilege.
So it is understandable.
Vatican II has been a disaster. So, Latin is to be “preserved” — not “used”? The language is ambiguous throughout . Vatican II opened the door for the abuses we are dealing with now as well a takeover by progressives. Had Vatican II never happened the church would not be in the state of chaos it is in now.
What is ambiguous about the word “preserved”? The question is why wasn’t this done? The US Bishops are the ones who decided how much of the vernacular would be used in the Mass. Their changes were approved by the Holy See.
SC 36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.
2. But since the use of the mother tongue … frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended.…
3. These norms being observed, it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used; their decrees are to be approved, that is, confirmed, by the Apostolic See.…
Yes, Anonymous, the Clergy and employee heretics who were in leadership positions at the National Bishops Conference in the USA (now the USCCB) did make a mess – which was not for the good of the Church (as evidenced by all the Catholics who have left the Faith, or no longer believe what the Church teaches).
Cardinal Joseph Bernardin was the pits.
In addition, the Vatican was very weak in granting many of the INDULTS (special permissions). Those in power did not have the guts to say “NO” in most cases; unfortunately they believed bad Bishops from the various Countries.
It is my understanding that many approved INDULTS have time limits that are being ignored.
Does anyone know where we can find accurate info on this ?
You speak rather boldly, Seth, for one who blithely accuses others of making presumptions. And yet, when you write:
“…In addition, the Vatican was very weak in granting many of the INDULTS (special permissions). Those in power did not have the guts to say “NO” in most cases; unfortunately they believed bad Bishops from the various Countries.”
….I would tend to agree with you. Others, however, may presume to accuse you of ill intent for posting what you did. Even though the fruits and the realities of history would only indicate that you are speaking the truth.
“…There are only 5 or 6 sentences in the entire 16 documents (VII) that require clarification by the Magisterium – but they are important.”
https://www.traditionalcatholicpriest.com/2014/08/21/bishop-schneider-criticizes-wording-and-some-concepts-of-vatican-ii/
Could it be that the above concerns can be traced back to…”…the Vatican was very weak?” And, “Those in power did not have the guts to say “NO” in most cases; unfortunately they believed bad Bishops from the various Countries.”
I think you nailed it.
Thank you for this link, Anne Malley.
Also not too helpful:
“An indult does not affect the law in any way but simply authorizes the person in question to act contrary to it because of special circumstances.”
An indult ceases in ways similar to that of a privilege; that is, if the authority that granted the indult revokes it. This can be done by directly revoking the particular indult or indirectly by promulgating a new law covering the same subject matter whose effect supersedes or revokes the indult…
An indult may also be extinguished if the time for which it was granted expires. For example, in 2002 the United States was granted a three-year indult allowing extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion to purify the sacred vessels at Mass. Liturgical law reserves this task to the deacon, an instituted acolyte in the absence of a deacon, or, if neither is present, the priest. When the period was about to expire, the Holy See was asked to renew it for a further period. After examining the case the Holy Father decided that it was better not to renew the indult, and so the United States returned to the same situation as the rest of the world. Similarly, if an indult is granted for a certain number of cases, then it ceases when this number is reached.
It also ceases if, over time, changed circumstances lead the competent authorities to judge that its use has become damaging or illicit, or if the original reason for granting the indult disappears.
Indults and privileges are granted in written form but are not always published in official sources.
…You’re welcome, Anne T. But thank God for +Schneider and those that have the wherewithal to take the hit for supposedly not understanding VII documents. The problem being ‘they’ understand the documents too well.
God bless.
In an article stating what Pope Benedict XVI Speaks on Personal Experience of Vatican II: (https://www.zenit.org/en/articles/pope-benedict-xvi-speaks-on-personal-experience-of-vatican-ii)
“Concluding his address, the Holy Father stated that only after the Second Vatican Council was a hidden link brought to light: “the link between the people of God, the Body of Christ, and their communion with Christ in the Eucharistic union.”
“Here we become the body of Christ, that is, the relationship between the people of God and the Body of Christ creates a new reality, that is, the communion.”
The Council, he continued, “led to the concept of communion as a central concept. I would say philologically that it had not yet fully matured in the Council, but it is the result of the Council that the concept of communion becomes more and more an expression of the sense of the Church, communion in different dimensions, communion with the Triune God, who Himself is communion between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, sacramental communion, concrete communion in the Episcopate and in the life of the Church.”
(February 14, 2013) © Innovative Media Inc.
https://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/did-fulton-sheen-support-vatican-ii
From Catholic Answers:
Archbishop Fulton Sheen’s autobiography Treasure in Clay, which was written just before his death in 1979 and published posthumously, devotes an entire chapter to Sheen’s experience at Vatican II. In his memoirs, Sheen deemed the Council’s document Gaudium et Spes to be “brilliant” (p. 247); he fondly recalled his audiences with both pre-Vatican-II popes such as Pius XI and Pius XII and post-Vatican-II popes such as Bl. John XXIII and Paul VI. Within one year of John Paul II’s election, he was already predicting that John Paul II would be one of the greatest popes in the history of the Church (p. 244).
In addressing the post-conciliar upheaval in the years since the close of the Second Vatican Council, Sheen had this to say:
The tensions that developed after the Council are not surprising to those who know the whole history of the Church. It is a historical fact that whenever there is an outpouring of the Holy Spirit as in a general council of the Church, there is always an extra show of force by the anti-Spirit or the demonic. Even at the beginning, immediately after Pentecost and the descent of the Spirit upon the apostles, there began a persecution and the murder of Stephen. If a general council did not provoke the spirit of turbulence, one might almost doubt the operation of the third Person of the Trinity over the assembly. (pp. 292–293)
Very good book Abeca, and a very important passage from that book.
Thank you Jay S. God bless you.
It is a wonderful book and to be highly recommended — and an easy read, too. I still have it.
St Francis of Xavier went into towns where there were lots of people who called themselves Catholic, they were baptized but that is all they had of their faith. They didn’t even know what heaven and hell were. So he would stay for a little to teach them the faith, he would do so many baptisms that his arms would hurt. He would hear so many confessions, he would only get 3 or 4 hours of sleep sometimes.
When he would travel on a boat, on the long journey, he would hear of people’s deaths of people he never met, he would ask if they knew God and if they didn’t, he would suffer great sadness for fear of their soul. He was so kind, he never yelled at sinners, he was so gentle that everyone loved him. He never said anything to offend any sinner because he wanted to convert hearts.
What a beautiful faith we have. Even back then, our church had many who did not know their faith but all it took was this great saint with the faith so great, that it converted many hearts. May we never take our faith for granted even if we are facing diversity. God bless our church. St. Francis of Xavier pray for us!
“We have visited the villages of the new converts who accepted the Christian religion a few years ago. The country is so utterly barren and poor. The native Christians have no priests. They know only that they are Christians. There is nobody to say Mass for them; nobody to teach them the Creed, the Our Father, the Hail Mary and the Commandments of God’s Law.
I have not stopped since the day I arrived. I conscientiously made the rounds of the villages. I bathed in the sacred waters all the children who had not yet been baptized. This means that I have purified a very large number of children so young that, as the saying goes, they could not tell their right hand from their left. The older children would not let me say my Office or eat or sleep until I taught them one prayer or another. Then I began to understand: “The kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
I could not refuse so devout a request without failing in devotion myself. I taught them, first the confession of faith in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; then the Apostles’ Creed, the Our Father, and Hail Mary. I noticed among them persons of great intelligence. If only someone could educate them in the Christian way of life, I have no doubt that they would make excellent Christians.
Many, many people hereabouts are not becoming Christians for one reason only: there is nobody to make them Christians.
–from letters to Saint Ignatius Loyola from Saint Francis Xavier
The problem with Vatican II is obvious: most of it can be read in a traditionally consistent Catholic way, or it can be read another way to “do as thou wilt”. Yves Congar, one of the famous V2 periti, is reputed to be the one to have said after the Council that he and others who wrote the documents, afterwards, would be able to interpret them differently from their original intent. If you read his “My Journal of the Council”, you see a man who was throughout hiding his actual intentions along with his co-conspirators: it is not a pretty picture.
So, Sacro. Concilium (On the Liturgy), can be read the way it is originally written (according to Klaus Gamber, Alfons Stickler, and others) as making very minor changes to the Mass of Trent (SC nowhere calls for the abolition of the TLM): or it can be read as a wide-open abandonment of the Tradition and we end up with a “New Mass.” Lumen Gentium (esp. n.25 and following) can be read to define the Magisterium (large “M”) traditionally: or if you read on, every little petty prelate is a mini-Pope in his mini-Papal State. So, a now-disgraced former bishop of Phoenix was fond of “glaring-down” people who displeased him, saying “I AM the Church in Phoenix.” Really now. This latter matter also explains the appalling drift of some dioceses into a neo-Protestant church life. And all the time these people have had their proud defenders.
There is a God.
Nobody does anything that gets past Him.
Believe in Him. Trust Him. Spend your time with Him. He is always present.
God knows all things. He is just. His JUSTICE is rarely taught in Churches these days.
Repentance and a firm commitment to “go and sin no more” is required for Salvation – because JESUS said so.
JESUS said: the GREATEST COMMANDMENT is: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul,
and with all your mind”. Mt 22:37-38.
and
JESUS said: “If you love me, you will keep My Commandments. Jn 14:15.
(Ex 20:1-17; Deut 5:6-21).
JESUS said: “MANY will NOT be saved”. Mt 7:13-14; Lk 13″23-28.
Actions speak louder than words.
JESUS is NOT a LIAR.
I agree totally with Father Karl’s remarks. Evil is a very powerful force in the world. Those that are clever and wish to destroy their enemy like an organization, no through deceit and trickery they can do so much easier from within than from externally.
I’d like to add an eighth passage, which I hope most people will recognize:
I am the Lord thy God and thou shalt not put strange God’s before me.
Yes that is the 1st Commandment, very good. It seems unfortunate that many, on account of the liberals leading the V2 Church could care less about offending God and care more about offending mankind. How you say? By encouraging and practicing ECUMENISM. By acknowledging and attending pagan rituals, by deceiving and claiming that pagan gods are the same as God the Father, when they in no way shape or form share the same character and most certainly have no divinity like God the Father. One can not deny the 1st Commandment nor the breaking of it by participating and sharing in it like what happened in Assisi in the 1980s when JPII invited the pagans to worship together and they even desecrated our Roman Catholic Altars by perching figurines of their false deity’s upon them. Benedict the XVIth did much the same, only to a lesser degree.
Don’t believe it? Wish to turn away from the on-going apostacy before our very eyes? Or wish to know the truth?
Live a humble simple life and leave everything to God.
NEVER TOLERATE MORTAL SIN.
We all must know right from wrong.
And this can be accomplished by reading a Catholic Bible, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
It is sinful and sad that there are some Clergy of ALL ranks ( & Nuns) that are Apostate and Heretics.
When God gave us Sacred Scripture and the CCC from the Magisterium, He knew what He was doing (as He has always proven).
Any Bishop or Priest who hides or discourages the Literate from reading the Bible and CCC at home is in grave sin.
Hosea 4:6.
Another sedevacantist has joined our forum, apparently.
good the more the better so we overwhelm the sodomites who have taken up residence here
I think you have your answer, Doug: some don’t want to even think about the depth of the problem.
The Church has ever proved indestructible. Her persecutors have failed to destroy her; in fact, it was during times of persecution that the Church grew more and more; while the persecutors themselves, and those whom the Church would destroy, are the very ones who came to nothing. . . .Again, errors have assailed her; but in fact, the greater the number of errors that have arisen, the more has the truth been made manifest. . . . Nor has the Church failed before the assaults of demons: for she is like a tower of refuge to all who fight against the Devil.
St. Thomas Aquinas
Hold firmly that our faith is identical with that of the ancients. Deny this, and you dissolve the unity of the Church.
St. Thomas Aquinas
Quoted from https://www.catholicbible101.com/vaticanii.htm
“Some of the best documents in the history of the Catholic Church were written during Vatican II. Below is a link that are EWTN’s links to all sixteen of them, including Dei Verbum (the Word of God), which delineates the importance of sacred scripture, and shows the world how Catholics read the Bible. If you don’t have time to read all 16 of them, at least read Dei Verbum. You’ll be glad you did!”
https://www.catholicbible101.com/vaticanii.htm
Here is a link to all 16 VATICAN II documents on the Vatican web site.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/index.htm
I printed them out (double sided copy) and had them bound at an office supply store.
Sacred Scripture (the speech of God in entirety),
and the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, second edition” (contains the Doctrine of the Faith)
are the 2 most important books in the Catholic Faith.
Thank you Lord for Sacred Scripture, and for the CCC which was published after V II, so that there would be no possibility of error.
And yet Bishop Athanasius Schneider would indicate that all is not free of potential error, MADDIE:
https://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2013/07/athanasius-schneider-clarification-of.html
That which is unclear and not properly worded promulgates error. Cardinal Kasper would tend to agree as he seems to believe in a certain built in ‘flexibility’ of interpretation. Perhaps that is what leading the Bishop’s Conference in Germany to assert the following publicly:
https://veneremurcernui.wordpress.com/2015/02/27/german-bishops-threaten-schism/
And Louis Verrechio has some interesting observations as well:
https://harvestingthefruit.com/tw26/
For while it is asserted that Vatican II documents are ‘sound’ those aspects which are not are in critical areas that are being exploited. And not to the benefit of Holy Mother Church or the transmission of the Faith, whole and entire.
Thank you Lord indeed for Sacred Scripture and for the wherewithal of those paying attention to endure slander for the sake of upholding the Truth of it.
What is wrong with you Ann ?
You seem to want to fight with almost everyone.
I never said that there are 5 or 6 sentences in the V II docs that do not need clarification. Of course they do.
But that is no reason that all V II docs are bad.
Go back and listen to Abp Bishop Athanasius Schneider, he pointed out the SPECIFIC 5 or 6 sentences that need clarification.
You are behaving like all 16 documents in entirety are bad or wrong. – Stop making yourself look foolish.
And for Heaven’s sake stop fighting with almost everyone.
And until you start attending legitimate Masses (not SSPX), you have no right to preach to any Catholic.
I don’t know what’s wrong with your reader meter, MADDIE, but I’ve never stated nor indicated that all VII docs are bad. I’m glad, however, that you understand that there is need for clarification. Significant clarification – much like that which we hope to receive from Pope Francis on marriage prior to the next Synod.
If you think the push to clarify is foolish, well then, that’s not behaving in a truly Catholic fashion – not a serious minded Catholic fashion, MADDIE. Perhaps that is where we differ.
And until you make serious statements that are complete, your preaching efforts will have no effect, save the opposite of what you intend, regardless of whether you attend what you consider a ‘legitimate’ mass or not. Unless of course your intent is to make blanket statements and or marginalize others for making legitimate points just to comfort yourself.
IOW: Unless you start getting your facts straight – all of them – and without hostility towards those who may point out critical aspects that would alter such ‘facts’, your dismissal is meaningless.
Ann Malley you never directly say what you really mean against the OF mass or V2 but you sure insinuate and are sly about it, we know that you protest them. Actions speak louder than words and your actions here are very clear. You are insinuating that MADDIE does not have her facts straight? I frankly think its the other way around…
You frankly have no desire for facts, Abeca, which is why you do not see others getting them straight – unless they agree with you.
Thank goodness the truth/reality isn’t determined by what Abeca Christian ‘thinks’.
Ann Malley, what needs to be clarified?
I would respectfully submit that if you would read the Catechism of the Catholic Church in its entirety, you would have very little need of clarification.
In the meantime, stay off of websites like the one you referred us to. No wonder you feel there needs to be clarification. You have been listening to people who are telling you whoppers about the Church and you can’t even figure it out.
When you spend your time learning from pure sources and get away from the deceivers, you will not need such “clarification.”
…Anonymous, please send your admonitions to the Cardinals, Bishops, priests and religious who seem to be similarly confused. (And that’s being charitable.) For while you push reading the CCC on the lay faithful – and we should be informed – there needs to be clarification or removal of the unjust legislation by which the hierarchy continues to push for that which goes against the Faith and openly scandalizes the faithful. (These ‘confused’ clerics – like +Kasper – seem to have divested themselves of the hermeneutic of continuity filters that were sent out for their specific use. Or perhaps the filters were collected and tossed out by someone in authority before said filters could interfere with the spontaneous interpretation of what is currently directed against Catholic teaching – like the disappearing books defending marriage before the Oct ’14 synod. But what is Catholic teaching when one develops a new ‘theology’ on one’s knees? New Pentecost. New Evangelization! But what about the old ones? The ‘real’ ones?)
Please, write the German Bishop’s conference, the Church in China, write the Holy Father about your concerns for Tony Palmer’s soul etc and those who may be influenced to remain Evangelical. Write each and every diocese that allows for Holy Communion for those politicians who openly call themselves Catholic and yet promote that which goes against Her in our country while strong arming those abroad by lure of money grants to follow suit.
Yes, Anonymous, take up the banner and fight for authentic interpretation.
I desire to die in the faith which the Holy, Roman, and Apostolic Church adheres to and defends, in which all the Saints of the New Testament have died, and outside which there is no salvation.
– St. Charles Borromeo
The Church is a ship, and even if the ship is in difficulty, it is necessary that we at least be in it.
– St. Augustine
O Church of Rome! … He who seeks another way shall find only eternal perdition.
– Bl. Giles of Assisi
Amen.
Barbara,
You spoke the truth very well. Wish others had the scales removed from their eyes.
Abeca,
Your comments on Bp Sheen’s book ‘Treasure in Clay’. What makes you think the book was written by him? He was old, weak, and on his death bed, then it was published after he died. I doubt he said those things, as they are not like him after having watched his Sunday afternoon television show for years. Also the ship is not the ship anymore, it is a sunken façade, a hollow exo-skeleton impersonating a grandeur Mother. It doesn’t represent what the RCC was before Vatican 2. It has changed inside immeasurably in all categories conceivable, it changed more so than Luther’s Church did which ended up getting him excommunicated. By their actions, it is possible all the liberals behind the changes were automatically excommunicated, not by man, but by God Himself!
Doug,
Excellent point! The loss of millions of what would have been RC souls is the biggest evidence of all. The loss of the oneness of the RCC is another based on the many opposing views seen even on this website, and anything goes is evident between all the Vatican 2 parishes. Finally, the loss of the holiness in the clergy, observed from pedophile priests, bishops who turn their cheek and look the other way, focusing on politics and materialism as opposed to the salvation of souls, and etc. are a few others.
All the words in the article’s 7 written passages are just meaningless words when one looks at what has happened to the RCC over the last 4 decades. They say pretty things, but mean another. Actions are greater than words, and words can easily be deceiving. Many have been blind-sighted. She is not in the Vatican any longer. She actually resides only in the RC parishes that practice tradition the way it was before Vatican 2. The pied pipers have been very successful what was, destroying from within, but they can not and will not succeed as Our Lord promised He will be with His RC Church practicing tradition, the tradition He established, not man, until the end of time!
Just a little more eye-opening thoughts to those who would rather turn their heads and look the other way. Check out on the internet to confirm what I am revealing. How does one explain JPII accepting ashes on his forehead in the 1980’s from a pagan Shiva priestess in a third-world country? Do you think any valid pontiffs reigning before V2 would stoop so low putting a pagan ritual at a par level as a catholic level? It breaks God’s 1st and highest priority Commandment does it not? Do you think Jesus would do this if He had been there, or would He have tried to convert them to please Our Heavenly Father? Is it not written in the New Testament that Our Lord directed all the Apostles to go to the ends of the world and convert souls in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost? I know so! Ecumenism is wrong, as well as many other changes the V2 leaders in Rome made countering and disavowing numerous previous encyclicals amplifying Roman Catholic doctrine espoused by earlier holy saintly pontiffs.
How can these V2 leaders justify what was right then is wrong now, and what was wrong then is right now? Think about it, even if it makes your blood boil and your headhurt. Imagine the pain it has put in our Lord’s heart! Still refusing to see the light?
So, Doug, you are saying that we have no valid Pope and have not had a valid Pope since Vatican II. You simply choose to ignore a sacred ecumenical council and declare that it was invalid. You pretend that the Holy Spirit abandoned the Cardinals in the Sistine Chapel, and that some devilish force presided over their deliberations instead.
YFC in the words of Pope Paul VI, the smoke of satan has entered the Church…if you deny that there is diabolic disorientation going and has been for over 40 years, you are blind.
…you pretend, YFC, that Cardinals do not have free will to ignore the Holy Spirit and sin just like any other man who can choose to do that which is office requires or not to do his duty.
So Ann Malley, are we to gather from your comment that you also do not believe we have valid Popes?
…are we to gather from your continued feigned ignorance of the actual Faith that all Church hierarchy is somehow stripped of free will once taking office?
Of course,the Pope is the Pope, but he is also a man with free will which he exercises regularly. And if, as you seemingly purport, there was no use of free will (that of ignoring the ‘Holy Spirit’) then I wonder what matter you think the Holy Father might bring to his rather public confessions?
Or are you positing that those are just feigned episodes of public piety?
Translation just for you: All men have the power to sin and ignore that which the Holy Ghost proposes.
OK I was asking whether you were a sedevacantist as Doug has proven himself to be. Thanks for the clarification. No thanks for embedding it in a post in which you hurl insults at me for no reason. And no, I don’t feign piety, I don’t have to nor do I want to. But your baseless accusation is actually a violation of the catechism, that we are to assume the best in others.
Catholic Tradition declares that the Pope cannot err when teaching on matters of faith and morals.
You are seeking to undermine the Holy Faith and it is sinful.
YFC, you had no desire to find out whether or not I was a Sedevecantist because you already knew, or should know,from previous posts that I am not. You merely did that to discredit me.
Or do you really have a handful of different people running the YFC moniker? It would seem so.
Anonymous, conflating Papal Infallibility to include that which is not specifically proclaimed as such is an error. The Pope is not a walking, talking Oracle….
…also, YFC, in light of your previous knowledge regarding me and my posts, I wonder why you feigned ignorance and didn’t think the ‘best’ of me. Perhaps because it didn’t suit your purpose.
AM you chimed in on Doug’s sedevacantist position, and you did not seem to be doing so to distance yourself from his thinking. So my question of you was relevant. You could have just said you are or you are not, but you can’t do that, you just seem to have the need to fill all your posts with insults unrelated the the question at hand. #typicalAnnMalley
Your post is strangely worded.
If what you mean is that the Pope has to declare something infallible in order for it to be infallible, you are not correct.
YFC, my wording regarding the ability of any human being to disregard the promptings of grace is no intimation of me being a Sedevecantist, but rather a statement of reality, friend. So your attempt to absolve yourself of less-than-charitable assertions while crying foul about how you are mistreated is off base – as usual.
Ann Malley, the way your write is strange. You seem to be trying to undermine our confidence in the Pope. Faithful Catholics do not speak like this.
Here is what the CCC says about promptings of grace:
1742 Freedom and grace. The grace of Christ is not in the slightest way a rival of our freedom when this freedom accords with the sense of the true and the good that God has put in the human heart. On the contrary, as Christian experience attests especially in prayer, the more docile we are to the promptings of grace, the more we grow in inner freedom and confidence during trials, such as those we face in the pressures and constraints of the outer world. By the working of grace the Holy Spirit educates us in spiritual freedom in order to make us free collaborators in his work in the Church and in the world:
Almighty and merciful God,
in your goodness take away from us all that is harmful,
so that, made ready both in mind and body,
we may freely accomplish your will.
Anonymous,
The way you write is predictable. I’ve noticed that you selectively look the other way when it suits your fancy. Jesus warned his sheep to be on guard. Ann Malley has never posted that Pope Francis is causing the same kind of scandal as Archbishop Lefebvre and then pretended that it was never posted. Focus on that strange flip flopping inconsistency that undermined confidence in the Pope. Ann Malley has often expressed that she prays for the Pope in an extremely charitable, sincere and realistic way. Pay closer attention before you falsely accuse those who charitably want only good for the Church while others “lobby favors” for their own personal agendas. People could have called YOU a heretic when you blatantly supported Father Zampelli’s “Stop Kiss” play and then undermined priests who upheld Church teaching regarding homosexuality. That’s certainly NOT “Full Communion” behavior. Faithful Catholics do not behave like that.
Catherine,HUH???????????????????????
There is no need to undermine confidence in Pope Francis, Anonymous. Unless you fear that pointing out what God Himself gives us, that being free will, is somehow a threat. Your understanding of infallibility and the protections of the Holy Ghost seem rather those of a Protestant imagining, even though you are Catholic.
For docility to grace shows itself in reaffirming that which the Church and Christ teaches. But that which resists grace in order to compromise or appease pursues a different agenda. Hence the different fruits:
https://harvestingthefruit.com/tw26/
“A house divided cannot stand.” So what to think of the compromise formulas that, upon analysis, show themselves to be stating opposite principles? (And that is certainly what seems to have happened at the last Synod and even now in Germany.)
https://veneremurcernui.wordpress.com/2015/02/27/german-bishops-threaten-schism/
Pope Francis is having to manage this, Anonymous. And wanting to get along is a fine intention. But at what price is the question? We must pray for Francis and for all the hierarchy of the Church that they ‘follow’ the right Spirit for they are no doubt prompted by many – otherwise there would be no need of discernment.
I hope this clears up your previous confusion about how bishops can pressure Popes, too. Not precisely the prompting of the Holy Ghost.
….and thank you, Catherine.
Catherine, I have read your posts many times now and it still does not make sense. I do not know your intention but I think you are trying to distract from a serious error by this other poster.
Catholics must have faith in God and the Church and the Pope. If you have lost confidence in the Pope, it may be because you are reading stories about him that are inaccurate, biased and sometimes written by people who have an agenda to undermine the Church’s teaching on homosexuality, which it seems that you have falsely accused me of doing. Ann Malley’s words seem to come from a weird place. Faithful Catholics support the Pope. Always. They know that the devil is trying to take him down and they will never help him do it.
…supporting the Pope is precisely to pray for him to that which is correct, Anonymous, not blindly endorsing whatever is said. For if the Pope were hard wired to always do that which he should, there would be no need for prayer.
What you seem to advocate is blind enabling, not looking to the source from which the hierarchy gains their authority, but rather the setting up of authority in and of itself. As if the ‘Church’ were somehow greater than Christ Himself. That is odd…. coming from a Catholic, but often what Protestants would have others believe is how the Catholic Church operates.
Ann Malley, I have to confess that your posts are absolutely befuddling. Your style of writing is so obtuse that I really don’t what you are trying to say.
I think some of it was supposed to be insulting so …whatever!
Anonymous, your befuddlement may be a direct result of not reading what is written, but rather relying on others to tell you what written words mean by a third party.
That’s why it’s important to know the Faith – first hand – not rely on second, third, or fourth hand sources only to claim “I am befuddled.” Of course you are. This is precisely why you hurling slurs you cannot back up against others is not taken seriously, but rather exhaustively corrected.
…we pray for the Pope that he will be strong, corresponding ‘with’ grace in order to do the ‘right’ thing…. not the convenient thing. Hope that’s clearer.
Anonymous, You cannot even be faithful in selecting a recognized name so your credibility is compromised. You are helping the devil to take down Pope Francis when you aid and abet those who undermine Church teaching. It’s called being a very deliberate “useful idiot”. The reason you do not want a consistently recognized name is so you can play both sides and then claim HUHHH. You have a serial pattern of selective no comprende. Faithful Catholics do not sit back and endorse powerful “influential brilliant Italian men lobbying favors and votes” from powerful Cardinals in order to attain personal agenda favors. Our Lady of Akita spoke of “compromises.” You would never suggest that the Mother of God lost confidence when she asked us to pray for the Pope because of those who have made compromises. You would never accuse the Mother of God of losing faith in her Son’s True Church because she warned us that Cardinals would be against Cardinals and Bishops against Bishops and churches and altars sacked. Faithful Catholics are not expected to simply sit back and pretend that there is not a battle or say que sera sera, there have always been battles.
Faithful Catholics DO have faith in God and His Church. Faithful Catholics pray for the Pope and they speak out when they see evil being promoted from within. St. Teresa of Avila said, “In times of crisis and with so much turmoil it is not enough to just sit with your hands folded.”
Doug, you are on a Catholic web site. You are not on a Sedevecantist site.
You will gain no converts here. We love our Catholic Faith.
Sedevecantist are heretics and schismatics – if they were ever Catholic in the first place.
No human being is without sin (except the Blessed Mother).
God let us know this by the writings in the Sacred Scripture which told of the sins of St. Peter (our first Pope) and the other Apostles including the chosen traitor Judas Iscariot.
If any Catholic does not like the style or statements of a Pope, that is OK.
A Pope is NOT infallible in EVERYTHING he says or does, and never has been.
In the history of the Church there have been 267 Popes. Of them are 80 Canonized Saints, 12 were corrupt scoundrels.
Catholics must adhere to Sacred Scripture (a Catholic Bible) and the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, second edition” which contains the Doctrine of the Faith in entirety and is from the Magisterium.
…and the VII documents that you believe so sound in every aspect are not, MADDIE. And that is not an attempt by any means to convert anyone away from the Church, far from it. It is the reality that is facilitating the craziness going on inside the Church.
So while you promote staying within the Church – which is good and holy – let’s all brave up and look at those aspects that have been allowed inside Her to wreak havoc. And often under the appearance of lawful ‘authority’.
To negate the root causes and blindly assert that these issues are just a matter of hierarchy behaving badly is to allow it continue and fester to the detriment of all souls.
Ann Malley, you are behaving very strangely, in fact hysterical.
Are you a sedevacantist ?
You already told us that you attend Mass by the SSPX which officially has ZERO Canonical status in the Church
and do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church per Pope Benedict.
https://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/letters/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20090310_remissione-scomunica.html
Maddie did not state anything about the V II documents in the post you are responding to.
She has merely stated previously that everyone should read them rather than use hearsay which can include errors.
What has gotten into you, Ann ?
See MIKE’s post below or Mac’s post near the beginning – there are only 5 or 6 sentences that need clarification out of all 16 V II Documents.
What has gotten into you, TED, that you would complacently sit by allowing grave error by way of marginalizing the impact of said error on Holy Mother Church? I’d venture that your salt has lost it’s savor, for when ‘men’ delve into labeling others, especially women, as hysterical it is a sure sign of either laziness, indifference or having no legitimate answer to a real problem.
Unfortunately, however, your behavior is not strange when speaking of men within the Catholic Church. So while you opt for capital letters to silence legitimate questions – questions that should be answered at the very least as a means of ecumenical outreach if you follow the idea that one should just blindly obey authority without reference to the “Faith” – others will still expect answers. And legitimately so.
So again, what has gotten into you, TED? If your financial future and that of your children were dependent upon a contract, I’d daresay you’d likely be very interested in 5-6 sentences that are unclear – especially if those managing your estate could make use of those concepts to bilk you of your assets and outright rob your children.
That is why MADDIE’s assurance that all is well when one reads the VII documents and then uses the CCC to interpret them is not quite the whole story. Not unless she is directing that to those who hold the power to alter our spiritual portfolio by way of what the documents actually say.
Ann, who said Maddie or anyone else believe all the V II documents are sound ? Please quote Maddie’s exact sentence, so we can follow you.
You certainly are in the attack mode.
She said we should READ the docs rather than believe the potential errors of others.
You, Ann are the likes of someone we should all beware of. We can not trust you to get things right.
Are you one of those former and heretical Catholics who don’t believe in our current succession of Popes ?
Do you believe that Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI, and Pope Francis are all our Popes ?
Be honest.
BethAnne welcome aboard. You are getting a taste of Ann Malley, who is not even in communion with the Magesterium. She has done that kind of dialogue often and be careful Catherine will most likely come to her defense. Even when its bad behavior. Its pride on their part for their refusal to be in full communion with Christ’s church.
….there is no need to quote MADDIE’S entire sentence. The documents themselves have ambiguities in them – so reading them yourself can result, in some ares, in being confusing as certain texts can be interpreted to mean what they should not. If you don’t care to visit:
https://harvestingthefruit.com/tw26/
…for an example, don’t, BethAnne. As for modes, try defense mode, and not blind defense as some would have it. For while MADDIE and others would attack Doug and call out the sniffing hounds with uppity proclamations like:
“Doug, you are on a Catholic web site. You are not on a Sedevecantist site.You will gain no converts here. We love our Catholic Faith. Sedevecantist are heretics and schismatics – if they were ever Catholic in the first place.”
that help no one. I’d prefer to try and understand why Doug feels the way he does. Honest. That said, if you’re that weak in the Faith that, “You, Ann are the likes of someone we should all beware of. We can not trust you to get things right,” is something you honestly feel, then you shouldn’t be trusted on the internet without a properly catechized adult supervising you.
Tell me, are you one of those misguided mass goers who have been led to believe that grace is earned by pulling the blanket over as many Catholics as you possibly can and calling it obedience? Honestly.
Abeca, why not look at the video link I posted about the issue about VII documents instead of pointing toward what you perceive personally as bad behavior. This preference for deferring to refusal to be in full communion is rather interesting considering it is predicated on accepting in total certain statements/propositions in VII that are a break with the Magisterium. (A house divided cannot stand.)
https://harvestingthefruit.com/tw26/
Please, if you care to win souls, try looking to the point and speaking to the issue instead of rallying people with a full communion/magisterium stick that bespeaks fear of reality. You state, “Its pride on their part for their refusal to be in full communion with Christ’s church.”
Is it your pride that keeps you from talking to the points? Is it a gentle heart that leads you to dismiss valid issues because you fear addressing them or, perhaps, cannot address them?
You mentioned once that your father-in-law just looks at you and laughs when you attempt to convert him. If you use the same ‘beware’ with him minus any logical discussion, I can see why. So why not cut your teeth here and attempt to understand the why behind what other people post. Otherwise you come off like the mob who burned Frankenstein.
God bless
Ann Malley, I looked at the webpage and this man is misinterpreting a Vatican document. He is taking something from the Bible and twisting it to make it seem as if the document denies the necessity of baptism.
You have to read the Vatican II documents in the light of Catholic Tradition. You can’t just pull a sentence out of context and add a phrase from a sentence that is written 10 paragraphs ahead of it., and then declare “this is against the Catholic Faith.”
Read the documents instead of listening to the INTERNET. Whatever you believe about the infallibility of the Pope, the Church, Vatican II, I am sure you will agree that the INTERNET is not infallible.
….Anonymous, the problem is that those in authority are reading the documents minus the light of Tradition when it suits them, something that can easily bee done (and ‘is’ being done) when language is imprecise or open ended. Louis Verrechio isn’t making up the interpretation, but rather pointing out what can easily been read as a break from what the Church has always taught. (Much like an error in a math book that can be understood as an error if someone has a base understanding of math, but when one doesn’t understand the complexities of mathematics, the instruction, as written, will lead to incorrect ‘solutions’.)
Read the documents, yes, but look to the fruits of what is being produced due to improper interpretation – improper interpretation that is fully legitimized if there is no overt and clear clarification of how to ‘interpret’ the text within the actual text.
Whatever you believe about what constitutes infallibility, a document that is inherently open to misinterpretation is going to be misinterpreted – especially if it is the hierarchy that is doing it.
Ann Malley not looking at the link…because I use to get those types of things from my friend who use to be SSPX. Have you personally read the V2 docs. Read them entirely for your self and do not let any schismatic try to interpret them for you, they won’t get it right. Ann pretty sly of you to bring up my father in law. You know nothing of his bad will, his refusal to convert has nothing to do with the way I witness to him, even our beloved Lord calls on people to convert and many still reject Him, so its irrelevant. I have no power over people’s free will, some people are more proud, it will only take our Lord’s mercy and miracle to convert them, Remarkable how you assess things, bringing up my father in law, his soul is nothing to poke at. If you care, add him in you prayers but remember this, that no matter what, people have free will and are prideful, even if the Lord parted the sea right in front of them, some will not remain of good will.
Abeca, nobody is poking at your father-in-law, rather pointing out that your evangelization methods are lacking. And you ‘assume’ others do not pray for him. Have you ever thought that others pray for the conversion of sinners all the time? No, of course not.
So while your ‘friend’ may have provided you with material, your ‘friend’ also may not have understood exactly what she was reading either. The hierarchy understands, however, the loopholes in VII documents. That is why they are using them to facilitate what you supposedly abhor. Hardly irrelevant, Abeca, in light of the ongoing crises abrading Holy Mother Church.
And while you may read the VII documents and look to others for interpretation of what they mean, it is reading the documents for what they actually do say that is key. You dismiss the issues as somehow a manufacture of misunderstanding, but those in positions of power are taking advantage. That’s not pride, but rather shrewdness. And it is not pride to question the integrity of documents that are critical to the life of the Church…. rather it is prudent.
It can be construed as pride to hammer away at one’s believing themselves to be impervious to misinterpretation and or misunderstanding because they are in ‘full communion’. And it is no ‘good will’ to assume ill of others when by your own will, you express no desire to understand real issues that others, even in ‘full communion’ have raised as problematic.
Steve Phoenix, Lumen Gentium is not in error when it speaks of bishops ordinary powers. This is in fact why we call them “ordinaries” and “prelates”. The power of the Bishop does not derive from that of the pope, hence they are not vicars of the pope for their office. The power of the office of bishop comes from the office itself. It is ordinary to the office, not derived from some delegation of power from the Roman Pontiff. If you are having difficulty understanding the difference between ordinary power and delegated power, I recommend some study on it. But LG is absolutely correct when it teaches that Bishops are not vicars of the Pope.
Similarly, LG is also correct when it speaks of the power of the Body of Bishops to define doctrine infallibly when it speaks in unity with the Roman Pontiff, especially when they gather physically in an ecumenical council. When Lumen Gentium in 25 speaks of the body of bishops, it is not speaking of any old body of bishops, nor is it speaking of national bishops conferences. It is speaking of the entire body of bishops through out the world acting in charity and union with the Pope.
When the bishops of Germany said that the synod could not possibly be expected to cover every situation in the Church, they are also correct. Synods can make guidelines, and they command a level of authority that an individual bishop or national bishop’s conference cannot achieve.
Ann Malley, those is positions of authority do NOT read the documents minus the light of Tradition. You have been way too influenced by the enemies of the Faith.
Stop drinking the Kool-Aid. turn your computer off and sit down with the Catechism and learn the Faith. You are no help to the Faith as you are now.
“Look at the fruits” is what the deceivers say when they have been busted and can’t figure out anything else to justify their lack of fidelity to the Faith. You wold have to have zero knowledge of the Bible quote from which it comes and the Church and her history to fall for that one.
Can I spell this out to you? You have bought into a bunch of lies and deception. Anything can be misinterpreted if you take a sentence out of a paragraph and put in extra words from another sentence and then totally make up what it means. Somehow you like the misinterpretation. For some reason, you want to believe it.
I doubt seriously that you have even read the Vatican II documents that you keep whining about. The Vatican II documents do not need to be clarified because you are too lazy to read them.
From………..”I pray for our Pope to help us unite them.”…..to calling names.
Taken from CCD’s ‘Long Beach Roots’
Posted Tuesday, January 10, 2012 11:24 AM By Abeca Christian
Larry I often appreciate your tone of loyalty to the faith, thank you my friend. Now that I said that I have to say that your examples that you used on the last post are not comparing apples to apples. SSPX is very rich in Tradition and honors the early church fathers and doctors of the church traditions, of course we must charitably understand why they dislike the new form of Ecumenism, I have seen many abuses, I recall having to attend a Mormon church because our Catholic church was participating in the Ecumenism efforts, I was young and naive, I didn’t know better, now that I know my faith better, I know that there was so much compromise. I also saw disrespect during Mass and not teaching others visiting on the Eucharist, all in the name of Ecumenicism. I’m not trying to condone SSPX denial to unite but I am trying to be charitable now and understand what their rite is all about. Larry I still refuse to attend or receive from them because I am loyal to my faith and wish with our denial of them they will be encouraged to unite but for now, I can be sensitive to their ordeal and continue to pray that our church will work out those differences and hurts that they feel are not helping them unite with us. I pray for our Pope to help us unite them!
https://calcatholic.web141.discountasp.net/news/newsArticle.aspx?id=2a8a04db-14b7-4bb5-a53c-46d01d0b23d0
Catherine now that I did my research, I know better, I have already posted facts about the SSPX, would you like me to repost them.
They are from the article ” faith demands a layman to express his thoughts
Faith demands a layman to express his thoughts”…..just don’t take them out of context. Miss “The truth hurts”. https://cal-catholic.com/?p=16613
Plus its a good note to look at…now knowing how problematic the SSPX is, that it may take a miracle for them to reunite and actually become of good will, they will have to correct all the errors and hatred that they have spread in regard to V2, so don’t expect them to unite anytime soon…..just like the Lutherans and other protestants groups who have yet to return to Rome. So in that light, thank you for showing that people can seek and find the truth, just like I did about the SSPX. I no longer care to defend such schismatic group, you and Ann M have helped me towards that reality. I no longer am deceived by you Catherine. With any traditional group not in union, or even any protestant group, they always have an excuse to not be in full communion or return to Rome, So yes compassion for how they misunderstood/assumed being wronged but no compassion for disobedience and refusal to be in union with the Magisterium.
Ann Malley and your methods are superb? I don’t claim to be superb, nor did I ask you for a critique on my style. I have always expressed here that I’m not really good at expressing my self well but neither did Moses and others who love God and His church. I just reply to what people post, just like everyone else here. Relax and watch the movie “The Flying Saint Joseph of Cupertino”
OK about my father in law, fair enough, I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but knowing from the history of these threads from you, usually you mean to throw in some personal attacks. I don’t feel you to be honest because one points out what you cause yet you deny and deny. Perhaps you do not understand how you come across, I forgive you.
Ann Malley Read Anonymous says:
March 1, 2015 at 3:13 pm , her or his comments to you make sense.
Oh, right, Catherine, that was the same post you accused Cardinal Levada and Archbishop Niederaur of being gay roomies. Thanks for reminding us of that zombie-obsessed-irrational post.
Anonymous says:
“Look at the fruits” is what the deceivers say when they have been busted and can’t figure out anything else to justify their lack of fidelity to the Faith.”
You should look to what scripture says, Anonymous. For whereas you ascribe “looking to the fruits” as a cop out, we are told precisely to do as much:
“…Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. By their fruits you shall know them.”
Translation: Those wearing the clothing of ‘full communion’ are the very same that are ravening wolves, aka: false prophets. If you take issue with Christ’s words, then perhaps you should take it to prayer instead of attempting to silence those crying wolf. Unless, of course, you desire that the flock should be consumed.
“…the new form of Ecumenism,” at the very least represents an understanding that things did not remain the same in the Church, Catherine.
But the blinders have been firmly implanted it seems to disregard the obvious while the attempt to redefine Faith to mean blind obedience to whatever is said now. So sad to see one who had the wherewithal to understand or at the very least recognize danger now blindly go along to get along.
Thanks for posting, Catherine.
“…I’m not trying to condone SSPX denial to unite but I am trying to be charitable now and understand what their rite is all about. ”
The inability to ‘unite’, Abeca, revolves around the compromises that were formerly too much for you to understand, but at the same time informed your conscience that something wasn’t right. Those ‘compromises’ are embedded within VII documents.
As to the Society’s ‘rite’, it is precisely that which was handed down very clearly in the Catholic Church prior to this ‘new’ evanglization you mention. The very same that would lead souls to believe in compromise formulas instead of what the Church has always taught.
Abeca, be consistent. That is what counts when it comes to the Faith as the fixed point is Christ.
As for ‘relaxing’ watching St. Joseph of Cupertino, that might lend a warm and fuzzy feeling, but Faith isn’t about sentimental wonder. So whereas that may soothe you, problem solving in the context of reality is what aids others. That can only occur when Catholics cease covering up the problems and deal with them – at the root.
Regarding what makes sense, you should look to your own words revisited here: Posted Tuesday, January 10, 2012 11:24 AM By Abeca Christian.
But I suppose just ‘relaxing’ is what you’re into now. And that’s okay for you. I forgive you. You may, however, want to write Cardinal Kasper about how everybody in authority reads VII in the light of tradition. Perhaps he’ll listen to you after a proper lecture….or watching a Catholic movie. Perhaps you could send a videotape to the attendees of the October Synod in 2015 to remind them what you say they are doing.
Ann Malley thanks for pointing out what you perceive, but I assure you that just because you do not understand me, does not mean I am inconsistent. Ann Malley you left the church for 30 years or something like that? From what I gather, you surely had much inconsistency until now that you have been immersed with schism and theories away from Christ’s church.
About the movie, well there was a point to that, not as what you see it but I wanted to point out how you always seem to have a theory about what people say. Why is that? I knew you were going to respond negatively, couldn’t you just agree and say sure, good movie I heard or something, why is it always have to have a lecture after it. Oh well. Things do not have to be complicated as you perceive.
Thanks Ann Malley talk to you later.
YFC,
I see you are pretending to be in “full communion” again. Fantasies are a very large part of the homosexual activist’s lifestyle. The reality of the Cross is completely avoided and swapped for fluffy feelings and illusions. I never accused either of them of being homosexuals. Those are you’re words. Leave it to a misguided homosexualist activist who thinks that “clouds of happiness” are based on unnatural acts to complain when the faithful ask their lead shepherds to please avoid even the appearance of giving scandal, especially during the height of the horrific sex abuse scandals and the Jon Jay study.
There used to be a time where all faithful priests would tell a man that he should not move in with a female friend to save on expenses because of giving the appearance of scandal. This should follow suit when trying to safeguard the complete and due respect for the holy priesthood. Today there are compromisers who deliberately live away from the idea of rectories so they may live a double life. Some have openly admitted this. For those who are doing this, they are not fooling God or the faithful, just themselves because they are not realistically thinking about how they are offending God. They are trapped in a mindset and like you YFC and they are prisoners of their own weakness. They know who they are. No one needs to accuse them of anything. They have already accused themselves.
Yes, Abeca, I left and then returned to do the Father’s will. But there are many inside the Church who said, “Yes, Father, I will do your will,” only to remain inside and do their own will. That is why in coming back I’m drawn to doing God’s will, that is all of it, not just the ‘new’ interpretation that is a huge part of what drove me away in the first place. (IOW: Despite ‘your’ perceptions, I am attempting every day to do what I’ve been led to do…. and not by any group that you believe are now bad.)
Let your yes mean yes and your no mean no.
That is the crisis in the Church today as, despite what you believe, there are hierarchs busily doing that which is their will, not the Fathers:
“In many places, [the Council Fathers] had to find compromise formulas, in which, often, the positions of the majority are located immediately next to those of the minority, designed to delimit them. Thus, the conciliar texts themselves have a huge potential for conflict, open the door to a selective reception in either direction.” (Cardinal Walter Kasper, L’Osservatore Romano, April 12, 2013)
There’s nothing complicated about what +Kasper is saying, Abeca. It is treachery, plain and simple. And the only reason for the negative response is because diverting from the subject by way of – watch a movie or let’s have tea – does nothing but avoid the reality of what we’re up against.
Goodness, Abeca, you attack Catherine for merely posting your inconsistency. It’s your inconsistency. (And you were spot on in your observation back then – your instincts were correct.) And if you have learned something, namely that there is no disconnect with Tradition, then how is it that Cardinals and Bishops see it otherwise?
You accuse the Society of spreading rumor and hatred about VII, but what do you say to Bishop Athanasius Schneider? He is stating very similar concerns, Abeca. Just because he says it sweetly doesn’t make it any more or less true. These issues are either true or not.
The topic of discussion is VII documents. And they require clarity in order to come into line with what the Church has always taught. No matter how much you attempt to blame others for the reality of what the documents say, you’ll never make that stick.
Nobody misunderstood or assumed being wronged when they were denied the TLM. Or are you now saying that VII didn’t supply for Latin by way of the TLM anymore? That’s the issue, Abeca, not personal feelings. But the faithful being sold down the river.
Just the same, I’m sorry you feel hurt.
Ann Malley, this is probably rude for me to point out. But I kinda think it needs to be said.
What you are asking us to do, we already did. You spent 30 years not going to Church and during that time, those of us who went to Church read the docs and figured out their meaning. We figured out who had it right and who had it wrong..
I am sorry that you are behind but you did it to yourself.
No worries about being rude, Anonymous. But in light of what you wrote, you have yourself to blame for the assorted crises in the Church, at least in part, if you blindly accept that which is unclear and can be read to infer something contrary to what the Church has always taught.
If it took you 30 years of extra conditioning to reach that point, I will applaud your attempt to give the benefit of the doubt. But when you witness the rotted fruit resulting from such specific disconnects, then no amount of bragging about fidelity can dismiss the reality that you’re not ahead, just going along to get along.
And you may not have done that to yourself before, but now, absolutely. For while you may have already figured out ‘who’ has it right and ‘who’ has it wrong, keep in mind the two parties you’re referring to can be easily represented by the factions within the Church that take disparate views on very basic subjects now, such as giving Holy Communion to those in the state of ongoing adulterous relationships…. or the need for non-Catholics to convert to the Catholic faith. Perhaps those in positions of authority haven’t had ‘your’ 30 years of faithful prayer, Anonymous.
I am sorry you believe obedience and fidelity require being unfaithful… or at the very least a blind defender of the shenanigans wreaking havoc with Holy Mother Church. But that is your choice, friend.
Ahh, the irrelevant and gratuitous personal “quack-quack-schismatic” (and now “quack-quack-sedesvac-aaahhhn-tist” attacks ) (i.e.”..You spent 30 years not going to Church ..”) just HAD to appear, sooner or later:
But back to the issue (Vatican II’s documents): for those of us who have read V2’s docs exhaustively—they can be read either in a consistently traditional Catholic manner— or not.
For example, from #27, Lumen Gentium:
“Nor are [bishops] to be regarded as vicars of the Roman Pontiff, for they exercise an authority which is proper to them, and are quite correctly called ‘prelates’, heads of the people whom they govern.”
Also, in #25 on bishops conferences (a “body of bishops”) are also given special authority to define doctrine infallibly. You can read this traditionally, as serving Scripture and Tradition and in unity with the Pontiff, with the restrictions imposed — or not! It all depends on how you choose to read it.
So, Card Reinhold Marx of Berlin in an interview ca. 2/25/15 dropped this pearl:
“Each conference of bishops is responsible for pastoral care in its culture, and must as its most proper task, preach the Gospel on our own.” Note: “Preach the Gospel ON OUR OWN.” [Wow: if when the SSPX or the sedes-quack-quack-vac-aaahhntists say that, they would be in for a bad dive-bombing the Anonymous-duck flock.)
Marx said in the same interview, ” ..the synod cannot prescribe in detail what we must do in Germany..”
Now, Sinatra as great V2 theologian fits in quite well with Kung (who says he has now left the Church and has written about contemplating his own self-euthanasia), or Rahner, or Congar (who reputedly stated, “We wrote the documents and afterwards, we will know how to interpret them.”).
But I don’t think assailing those like Doug (as a ” “quack-quack-sedesvac-aaahhhn-tist” ) nor Ann M (“quack-quack-‘fill-in-the-blank’ ”) helps the Anonymous Novus Ordo ducks’ arguments much: personal attacks avoid the issues raised. People certainly are noting that.
What is certain is the Marx and the German bishops are taking their authority from Lumen Gentium 25 and ff, esp where it says,” “When either the Roman Pontiff OR the body of bishops together with him formulates a definition,..” In other words, we can define matters on or own—and we can be sure that this pontiff, who set this catastrophic train-wreck in motion, will not counter their schism.
Shades of the Dutch Schism of 1966-1970. Now the Dutch Catholic population is about 16% of the Catholic population (according to Dutch Primate Villem Eijk himself), it is expected to fall to about 10% by 2020 (5 years from now, FYI), and his own report is that perhaps only 5% of the population regularly attend Sunday Mass. Ahh, success, Novus Ordo Ducks! Quack-quack for that!
Mr. Phoenix, aside from personal attacks which are rude, disrespectful and -distracting and make you look like a dunce- there is nothing in Vatican II that could possibly be interpreted the way you are claiming.
Read it again. The Pope or the body of bishops (all bishops of the Catholic Church) together with him (THE POPE). This is Catholic Tradition. A bishops conference is not the body of bishops. The quote you supplied that is supposed to be so schismatic-talks about pastoral care and preaching the Gospel. You are taking it to mean something that is does not mean.
You always need to interpret Vatican II in the Light of Catholic Tradition. It does not depend on how you choose to read it. The Pope is not stupid and neither is God.
Perhaps, Charles, you should direct your diatribe toward the German Bishop’s Conference. For it is they who are using the premise Steve Phoenix outlines to facilitate forcing change within the Church.
And no, the Pope is not stupid. That’s a key point, friend.
Ann Malley, your post is nothing short of evil deception.
Ah, now our Anonymous is posting as “St Charles.” Quack-quack!
As to what Card Marx has said, the interview can be read which had been conducted by Regina Einig Feb 25th (“St Chas”/Anonymous Duck hasn’t read it but knows all about it), Marx effectively announces the German “magisterium” will develop their own “pastoral care” and they “it is not the duty of the bishops to wait for permissions,” I.e. from the Synod. Marx’s, Kasper’s, and still influential tho’ retired Card Lehmann’s positions on a new definition of Catholic marriage and sexual relationships are well-known, and they are deriving their justification from Lumen Gentium 25ff.
The real schism that quack-quack St C/Anonymous/ Novus Ordo – types can’t face is, that, as the Vat2-quoting leadership breaks away from the Synod, even before it concludes, the leadership is preparing to repudiate Catholic marriage as defined in Gaud. Spes n.47-52.
That’s ok, it’s all the SSPX’s, or trads, or the “sedes-vacaaahn-tists'” fault. Quack-quack! Always the same note!
Anonymous, ignorance can be an ugly thing. Or are you on board with the attempt to change the reality of what constitutes adultery? Or intimating that the Holy Father is somehow ignorant?
The time approaches wherein you will need to choose that which you obey. That’s no evil deception, just reality.
God bless
If you cannot understand the Vatican documents, it may be that you have not prayed enough. Always pray to the Holy Spirit before reading the Bible, the Catechism and documents from the Church.
You need to read the 4 main documents first because they are the ones that are the foundations. You may need to look up the passages in the Bible or other documents that are quoted or refered to. One thing you absolutely can’t do is take sentences or paragraphs out of context. You are sure to get confused if you do that.
It is not a quick project and it is not something that someone else can do for you. You have to put in the work of reading and praying.
The Catholic Church stated at the 22nd Session of the Council of Trent (Canon 9):
” If anyone says…that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vernacular tongue only…let him be anathema.”
Pope Pius XII reaffirmed this teaching in one of the last major documents regarding the sacred liturgy in the years leading up to the Second Vatican Council, his encyclical Mediator Dei (1947).
Abeca Christian please read VII document which clearly intended to preserve the Latin, except for small portions of the Mass to be in the vernacular.
Unfortunately, the Vatican gave far too many special exceptions – INDULTS.
I think the Vatican was or is afraid of Bishops Conferences causing schisms? ? ? ? I say if they are heretics or schismatics – kick the bums out.
PETE yes I have read them. They have preserved the Latin with the Tridentine Mass, they choose to remain in full communion. But don’t distract away from the truth either on my post from March 1, 2015 at 12:13 pm. PETE you are correct by stating about the special exceptions – INDULTS. Yes far to many abuses there, by many who grew up before V2, if they were faithful to the Latin Mass, why did many who said the Latin mass, where the ones who created many of those abuses. V2 is not the root of disobedience, the root happened way before and V2 just got hit by many who abused it. But with that note, there are many who are faithful and who are seeking the truth and I see throughout my life, that those errors are being corrected. So thanks PETE for the reply, yes and yes to also seeing more and more who actually honor the evangelizing efforts of the V2 and have brought many excellent converts to our faith. It is helping fallen away Catholics return and also make notice that we need to read the CCC and the Bible more…….God bless you.
I want to add that we have other Rites as well that are not in Latin, they are also very beautiful and reverent and holy, I have mentioned them here before!
Abeca, the Latin rite was being unlawfully suppressed after the introduction of the NO. You really don’t understand. Perhaps you should go back to the movies and relax…. leaving scholarship to others as you have no taste for looking at what things really say. Including yourself as you seem to have taken a complete 180 from your insightful position of 2012. Something was/is indeed amiss as the ‘new’ evangelization led may to flee out of the Church due to religious indifferentism.
By your logic the huge crisis introduced by the confusion of VII changes and/or what constitutes its ‘Spirit’ is what got people to read the bible and the CCC – why? – so that they would know that they were being misled and lied to by clergy misinterpreting VII? But I forgot – the hierarchy always interprets VII by way of Tradition according to you and Anonymous.
Good grief. What do you think aided those Catholics to fall away in the first place?
It is just this ‘style’ of defense with no defense that undermines true evanglization and the Faith.
Ann Malley yes I was aware, I’m sure in some areas the Latin is suppressed more so than other areas. Ann Malley have you not read my comments from the past, I have said that for years, in our area we have fought to have a Latin Mass parish and yes we felt as you have, but now that I understand the issues better, I think that many just didn’t like the uncharitable actions of those who want the Latin Mass. I use to think it was the other way around but now through this website, I got to see why people have their indifference. Well that does not matter.
I understand what you are saying but I happen to now get the puzzle work all together and I feel that you are missing the whole picture because you are immersed with theories that do not seek the truth within full communion.
Set aside all those reasons and focus on Christ and His promises and you will be lead back to being in full communion. Wish we could have a cup of tea and discuss better than on these threads….might do better over tea, I wish I knew you. I’m sure we may appreciate one another better and hopefully be more civil. BUt it would have to be a mutual sentiment.
Abeca, the truth with ‘full communion’ is the communion with the fullness of Truth, not just an okay stamp from Rome today. So while you focus on the latter as somehow communicating truth, others will pursue the fullness of truth…. clearly stated and documented. Not marginalize the very real danger of ambiguities and misstatements within VII documents… and now Synods. That is no theory, but reality, Abeca, working itself out to the detriment of many who may not have the benefit of your particular parish.
And whereas having tea might lend an atmosphere of civility, much that is wholly uncivilized and nefarious is often carried out with the height of manners being observed. Hitler entertained in lavish style…. as did Juan Peron and many others.
So while this type of ‘mutual’ civility may be your requirement, mine is honesty and truthfulness. Not interested otherwise, not at all.
And yes, you may have fought for years for Latin mass in your area. That is because the TLM was unlawfully suppressed by those whom you still insist interpret VII documents in light of Tradition. If that were so, Abeca, you wouldn’t have had to fight for the Latin mass. And others wouldn’t have to fight for it right now.
Thank you, Cal Catholic for posting this. I will read it all, including the comments, when I have more time.
YFC, Liberals jump to conclusions and put words in peoples mouths they didn’t say. Have you been loyally following the pied pipers with millions without giving it a thought or asking why! Millions nolonger live as catholics and have lost their ancestors faith. I was misled for 20 years before I saw the light and returned back to the roots of the true Roman Catholic Faith, Teachings, and most importantly Worship i.e. the Tridentine Latin Mass of our ancestors, instituted not by man but by Christ! The NO service invented by man looks more Lutheran than an english translation of the TLM!
The V2 Church is only an exo-skeleton of the RC Church it seceded from. Riddled with scandal bullets from its leaders and politicians have hollowed it out. The greatest evidence is the loss in millions of once faithful. Former V2 pastors of my parents said it was alright for my siblings to marry outside and worship in protestant services instead (1 bad part of ecumenism)! That goes completely against the grain of traditional RC teaching, which still is preserved in the RC Churches practicing the TLM and 7 Holy Sacraments in the traditional Latin rites, by only holy male bishops and priests. We’ve been deceived, and must now face the facts of counterfeitism that runs a muck. The only explanation all of the daily scandals is that there is a vast void in sanctifying and actual graces in the V2 Church.
YFC, Sacred Vatican Council? You’ve drank the koolaid! They countered so much official RC doctrine and worship it is not funny. It led to the massive loss of faith of tens of millions of what should be catholics today.
Do you not think liberalism could not seep into and corrupt the RC Church? May I suggest that you do a little reading of RC Church teaching. Evil has been trying to destroy it since the beginning. Even our Lord was tempted by proud satan!
Do some reading about Pope Saint Pius the Xth and how he discovered and stopped liberalism from encroaching in the RC Church during his reign around the beginning of the 20th century. He took action to contain it and remove its ugly head, unfortunately after his death it deceivingly crept back in and took over. Fortunately not all of the faithful fell for V2. They are what remains of the Holy Roman Catholic Faith and Holy Mother the Church, and are growing contrary to the V2 church. Pray your rosary and ask God and Blessed Mother to open your eyes, receive the courage, and be resigned to God’s Will that they lead you to their Sacred and Immaculate Hearts.
Doug there is no such thing as a “V2 Church”. There is one Church, holy catholic and apostolic. It is very sad to me that you have chosen a path that departs from it, based upon what you are telling us.
YFC, if you do not think that the Church after Vatican 2 is different from the one before after you are sadly mistaken: As with all progressives they must destroy everything that came before them.
We are what you once were.
We believe what you once believed.
We worship as you once worshipped.
If you were right then, we are right now.
If we are wrong now, you were wrong then.
Canisus, YFC must believe that VII made changes in the Church for he has stated in previous posts that it was precisely because of VII that he became Catholic. That would surely indicate that he acknowledges some change.
This is just the usual flip flop fidelity and holy smoke.
God bless
Whose we?
Taken from the website ‘From Rome’
Rome, February 25, 2015: Cardinal Theodore McCarrick, on October 11, 2013, during a speech given at Villanova University, in the United States, confessed that he was lobbied to support Cardinal Bergoglio. Start watching from 18:20…
https://fromrome.wordpress.com/2015/02/25/cardinal-mccarrick-confesses-that-he-was-lobbied-to-support-cardinal-bergoglio/
May the Lord preserve Pope Francis and give him life and yield him not up to the will of his enemies.
The Catholic World Report Blog
Reports: Card. Baldisseri ordered interception of copies of book mailed to Synod participants
The head of secretariat of the synod of bishops was reportedly “furious” about “Remaining in the Truth of Christ,” which includes chapters by Cardinals Burke and Brandmüller
February 25, 2015 04:29 EST
Carl E. Olson
https://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog/3717/reports_card_baldisseri_ordered_interception_of_copies_of_book_mailed_to_synod_participants.aspx
Baldiserri wants to determine and control what truth can and can not be said in the raging debate amongst Cardinals – whether those who choose to continue to live in the state of MORTAL SIN should receive Holy Communion.
He is like the Hitler of the Catholic Church – “my way or the highway”.
Baldiserri supports SACRILEGE against the Body and Blood of our Lord, and SCANDAL.
Baldiserri is a heretic by Church definition.
CCC 2089 “…HERESY is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same”.
This appears to be the information that Baldiserri wants to keep hidden.
CCC: ” 81 “Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit.”
“And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety
the Word of God
which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit.
It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching. ”
1 Cor 11:27-30 = CONDEMNATION for Receiving Holy Communion unworthily
and
Mt 7:6 = JESUS’s words on PROFANING the HOLY.
Taken from Father Z’s blog
SYNODGATE – Five Cardinals Book stolen from participants’ mailboxes at last year’s Synod on Family
Posted on 26 February 2015 by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf
It seems that this story about #Synodgate is being picked up by lots of people.
What will be really interesting to watch is who does not pick this up.
_____ ORIGINAL Published on: Feb 25, 2015 @ 9:32
I have wanted to write about this for soooooo long now.
Kathnet broke this, in German HERE.
https://wdtprs.com/blog/2015/02/five-cardinals-book-stolen-from-participants-mailboxes-at-last-years-synod-on-family/
Love how that turned into an advertisement for the book.
How do they know that they were stolen from their mailboxes? Did they find them piled up somewhere?
The Book was not in the mailboxes and received by all those intended.
.
Pope Francis promised transparency to all the Bishops.
ALL sides should be heard not just those who support SACRILEGE against the Body and Blood of our Lord. – Holy Communion for those who obstinately choose to live in the state of mortal sin.
YFC, You are mixed up and confused. Open your mind and ponder the question: Who strayed away from the RCC by changing Holy Mother the Church from how Christ instituted it, was it today’s Roman Catholics clenching onto the traditional Latin rites preserved, protected, and passed down for 20 centuries by nearly 200 valid Popes, or was it the V2 perpetrators and followers? Yes it was the latter, they disobeyed our earlier valid Popes by founding the new V2 religion, much the same way Luther and other protestant reformers did. Who changed the church? V2 did! YFC you’ve taken the wrong path, the path of the wolves in sheeps clothing and you’re to blind to see it. Only grace and the desire to find our Lord will remove the scales from a person’s eyes to see the truth. May God help us all to see His truth as the Great Apostacy foretold in the Holy Douay-Rheims RC Bible started 50 years ago and continues today, but only for another generation or two as it implodes with greater losses of the faithful in the future. Sad but true. The RC Parishes practicing Tradition and growing in the numbers of faithful and vocations, Christ will be with them (i.e. Holy Mother the Church) until the end of time!
Spot on Doug… we will outlast them their parishes will close and crumble to dust
Doug I am not mixed up. The path I have taken is the path of a Sacred Ecumenical Council and the pontiffs that presided over it and have been implementing it. You are the one who has strayed from the path, claiming as you do that these popes are not valid popes and that the council was not a valid council. You compound matters by taking people of catholic faith by the hand and guiding them off the path of the catholic church. This is a sad state of affairs, for you, for those you mislead, and for the entire people of God.
Getting back to the article, I agree that everyone should save a link to the article.
” Many other passages from the council could be quoted, but this selection reveals just how far from the conciliar documents many in the Church have strayed.”
V II gets blamed when in fact it is those who disobey and promote disobedience who should be blamed.
Here is a link to all the V II docs, so that no one will ignorantly blame V II based upon the ‘hearsay’ of others who may be in severe error.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/index.htm
There are only about 5 or 6 sentences from V II that must have clarification by the Church.
https://www.traditionalcatholicpriest.com/2014/08/21/bishop-schneider-criticizes-wording-and-some-concepts-of-vatican-ii/
and
…but it is precisely the ‘obedience’ to that which ‘can be’ inferred by the 5-6 sentences that is the problem, MIKE. So while others may focus on the manifest abuses wrought erroneously in the ‘spirit’ of VII in an attempt to defend the Church and the council, the distraction caused by that separate issue keeps the focus away from the very critical and deeply damaging aspects of the so-called small portion of maligned VII documents. (If the impact of these 5-6 sentences was so negligible, why would Bishop Athanasius Schneider even think to address the matter? That in itself is worth considering… is it not?)
IOW: It is often the little things that effectively trip a person up, not the glaring and obvious errors that are more visible and therefore naturally avoided and/or called out as such.
Would that someone in ‘full communion’ could adequately address the issues in the following:
https://harvestingthefruit.com/tw26/
That would surely go a long way in clearing up the so-called severe error regarding interpretation. Throw us a bone, MIKE. Educate.
Ann Malley face it abuses have been going on since the beginning of the church ,even in holy scriptures, the apostles had to correct problems that they where having in churches in other areas. All this debating is useless especially since many are heretically immersed in problematic man made theories. But we must keep our focus on Christ…..Jesus knows that mankind are sinners, not perfect.
Abeca, face it, abuses will continue to occur when there is leeway in teaching documents that allow for misinterpretation. That is why cleaving to that which is clear and what Christ taught is critical.
So yes, Jesus knows that mankind are sinners. And there is no man made theory in watching the crises in the Church unfold and no mystery. The open door to what is occurring is there in black and white.. You can reject reality, Abeca, or attempt to dismiss it,but that doesn’t make it go away.
The German Bishop’s Conference is basing their assertions to FORCE Holy Communion for divorced and remarried Catholics by way of the disconnects you choose to ignore.
So yes, we must keep our focus on Christ and what He says…. not what others, even Bishops, might like to work out at the upcoming Synod. And if you don’t think that’s a serious issue, you may want to write Cardinal Burke on the matter and ask him why he’s being so divisive and dismissing ‘full communion’ by even breathing about resisting.
I don’t reject reality Ann Malley. I think that a while back when I posted the abuses from the SSPX, it was you who didn’t address them properly.
Ann Malley I don’t see any point in turning this into an argument. Take care. Thanks for the reply back.
Abeca, nobody is attempting to elevate the SSPX here. Rather the discussion revolves around honestly assessing and addressing the very real problems promulgated by errors within VII.
Your obsession with the SSPX or any other issue for that matter is only a means for you to forestall looking at the reality that Church hierarchy is even now using the precepts introduced in VII (not in all documents) to actually threaten schism. That’s real schism, Abeca, not the tone which seems all about worshiping obedience to enforced ambiguity.
That said, if you don’t want arguments, try not dropping notes to others like, “You’ve got a taste of Ann Malley….” otherwise your actions are quite the opposite of your words. But then that’s what’s going on within the Church today, too. And that’s the problem.
Ann Malley – No one – NO ONE has ever said that Cardinal Burke is not in full communion. To be sure, I am a strong critic of Cardinal Burke, but there is no question that he is in full communion. The fact that you twist people’s words to say that there is such a question only shows the state of your own mind and soul. You adhere to a sect (SSPX) that is NOT in full communion by virtue of its repeated disobedience to the Pope. Not disagreement…outright disobedience. Ordaining priests and bishops without the consent of the Roman Pontiff. Refusing to give assent of the will to a Sacred Ecumenical Council. Burke has not done these things and no one is accusing him of that, even people like me who disagree with him on many pastoral issues. But brothers in Christ may disagree about pastoral matters from time to time, that does not break the bond of brotherhood. Disobedience is what leaves someone outside of full communion, not disagreement on pastoral matters.
YFC, the SSPX is not in union with the Catholic Church at all. It is not disobedience to the Pope-one could disobey the Pope while one was in union with the Church. It is not refusing to give assent to Vatican II. Their lack of union with the Church comes from their not being a canonical entity. They are not an organization that is part of the Catholic Church. Period. They have no canonical status in the Church. Their priests and bishops are all suspended. They exercise no legitimate ministry.
‘Bond’ of brotherhood? Good grief, YFC, you are dredging the pond. Your approach to ‘brothers in Christ’ seems to be that if agreed ‘brothers’ can all change Christ’s teachings together for the sake of being pastoral with the only obedience being owed to expediency … not the Head of the Church who is Christ.
So wax lovely. Build a straw dragon in order to heroically feature yourself, armed with bipartisan affection and round-table rhetoric, if you’d like. But your assertion that any resistance +Burke may mount to Synod novelties as a mere dispute of ‘pastoral’ matters is absurd. And certainly would not have only a ‘from time to time’ impact. And brothers, true brothers, do not break each other’s backs while dangling unity as a say-Uncle carrot to get their way.
The Catholic principle is obedience in all but sin, YFC. And it is precisely that fidelity to Faith and the necessity of not sinning – or promoting sin – that would, if need be, lead Cardinal Burke to resist Synod novelties.
But I would love to hear more of your sonnets on the assent of the will. I love good theater.
What are the 5 or 6 sentences?
The 5 or 6 sentences in the 16 V II docs that need clarification are important. No one said they are not.
They are important because they can cause confusion as stated by Bishop Athanasius Schneider in that video.
Where the SSPX went wrong is that rather than pushing from within they left, denounced papal authority, and without required Papal approval of the individuals ordained their own Bishops. (Some of this has since been resolved.)
It would have been more effective, if the SSPX merely kept raising the 5 or 6 points within the Church – not attacking the Pope, etc.
Ann, there have been heresies and schisms since the beginning of the Church. And even many Bishops have promoted them within the history of the Church; so as distasteful as it is, Catholics have had to put up with it.
I do not expect this to change until Christ returns.
Look at the sins of Pope St. Peter, and chosen Judas Iscariot.
This does not mean that the Church founded by Christ is bad.
It does not mean that the succession of our Popes is wrong.
It does not mean that we should remain silent about those things that are heretical or schismatic, or disrespectful to God.
It means that there are sinners within His Church.
Pick and choose your battles rather than ALL the documents of V II, and V II itself.
V II was a legitimate Council of the Church.
MIKE, who said that the Church founded by Christ was/is bad? As to what would be more effective, you have absolutely no idea what would have been more effective. That said, common sense is to nip problems and address them in the bud, not wait until entire factions of the Church are oriented ‘under the auspices of lawful authority’ to believe that which the Catholic Church has never taught.
Those aspects of VII requiring clarification are not needing clarification because they ‘can’ cause confusion, as if it is the faithful’s misinterpretation that is the danger. Rather it is the intentional use of these ‘new’ ideas by those in authority to press for change that is the threat. And that, friend, is not just a ‘can cause’ rather it is a ‘look around at the devastation’ and coming attractions. I.E. The German Bishops right now. A hierarchy who publicly encourage non-Catholics to remain as such. Not publicly excommunicating and/or denying Communion to politicians who openly advocate for and promote abortion and sodomy etc.
That’s grave danger, MIKE, not something to be just endured, but endured and fought against. And if one signs on the dotted line that ‘all’ of VII is in line with Tradition, when *knowing* it is not, that is a lie and a negation of primary duty – saving souls. Such a capitulation also would prevent speaking out about the truth of matters in future. That’s handy when seeking to change basics.
to MIKE cont:
Would you have had the Society agree to something that they knew wasn’t true just as means of picking their battles, MIKE? Really? Would you?
I also have never said that the succession of the Pope’s is wrong. Neither has the Society. I have also ‘never’ stated that VII wasn’t a legitimate council. Please, at least when attempting to respond to my posts, don’t generalize, but rather ask. You may be surprised. You may also have a very different landscape right now had Archbishop Lefebvre not done what honestly felt he needed to do – and so the picking and choosing of battles could have been far more difficult as folks couldn’t ‘see’ any problem.
Don’t forget, MIKE, that Archbishop Lefebvre was there during the time of the council…. he saw, he knew. And much like the German bishops who are threatening schism now to get their progressive agenda approved, there were Bishops in the days of the council who were actively doing the exact same thing. Hence the censuring of +Lefebvre isn’t just a matter of one rejecting the Pope, far from it. Would you accuse +Burke of potentially rejecting the Pope?
So while the German bishops push for actual change against what the Church has always taught by threatening schism – that’s real schism, MIKE, like the Chinese – wouldn’t it be nice to have a faction of the Church press for fidelity, even to the point of being slandered with the name schismatic?
There are no German Bishops threatening schism.
This internet gossip comes from a misunderstanding by a blogger.
One auxiialry bishop in one small 60,000 person diocese has expressed an opinion that a couple of sentences could use some clarification. Out of THAT you make such a stink? Oh for Pete’s sake!
…it’s not me raising the ‘stink’, YFC. Rather it is the teaching of the Catholic Church for 2000+ years that calls these inconsistencies rotten. And unfortunately for your agenda, the actual teachings of the Church are not just a matter of opinion – or even the matter for a vote.
YFC, it is clear you continue to comment on things of which you have no knowledge.
You clearly have not read the V II documents.
Nor did you check the Bishop’s statements against the documents.
I did, and Bishop Schneider is 100% accurate.
Please let us know where you think he is NOT accurate,
instead of waving your hands and inserting your foot in your mouth again,
use the video of the Bishop’s exact words to point out any errors you personally deem appropriate.
MIKE, it would be nice if you would not use calumny against me. I’m just saying. What is “clear” to you is nothing factual or truthful when you make accusations that i “clearly” have not read the documents of Vatican II, or say that I comment on things about which I have no knowledge of. I wonder why it is that people who are so intent on destroying Vatican II are equally intent on destroying the reputations of fellow catholics? Why do you suppose that is MIKE? Does whatever brand of religion you purport to belong to have as a commandment that “thou shalt bear false witness against thy neighbor?”
Hundreds of millions of people, including now several canonized Saints, have found the documents of Vatican II to be an amazing gift of the Holy Spirit to the Church. When they have questions or issues with the documents of that Council, or any council or document of the Church, they enter into a prayerful dialogue in their hearts and those with greater knowledge than themselves. They don’t go on a rampage against those bishops who wrote the document, the Popes who approved them, or the faithful who find in them greater insight into the work of God in our lives. I wonder why it is that the religion that you purport to belong to casts aside all humility, and leaves aside all docility, and requires of other faithful that they submit to their own point of view?
Undo Vatican 2
Ann Malley
1) Exactly what do expect of us?
2) Are you a Sedevecantist ?
3) If you are so interested in Doug, why did you personally not ask him if he was a Sedevecantist ?
(Most of us posters can and do support Bishop Schneider in getting the clarifications of the 5 or 6 sentences needed.
No one is blindly adhering to anything, so get that out of your head. You jump to too many conclusions and unjustly attack too many people.)
Thanks MAC yes she does. But we have nothing to prove to her or Steve. We just have to trust Jesus and His promises. His church. We must follow and obey Jesus in His Catholic and apostolic church. Ann Malley has said she belongs to the society of SSPX. That should give you a good indication as to why the division.
…and your inability to not bait is what belies your statements of both being of ‘good will’ and not wanting to argue. Thing is you are fixated on persons instead of concepts, Abeca.
Evangelization and Faith are not a matter of ‘proving’ anything to anybody. And that is perhaps your biggest issue here. That is likely why you take issue with others addressing the content of what you say as being an attack against ‘you’.
MAC:
1) I expect the ability to discuss openly without haughty pronouncements that one isn’t going to gain converts from those who believe where they attend mass gives them a license to ignore reality or dismiss the lawful concerns of others. Regarding Doug, he didn’t say he was trying to convert anyone. Rather he was posting comments that could and should be answered. Especially on a ‘faithful’ Catholic website. It would be different if Doug stated that everyone on CCD were damned and they needed to join him. He didn’t. This closing ranks mentality from so called ‘full communion’ Catholics is wholly off-putting when it comes to rational discussion.
2)Read, MAC. I am not a Sedevecantist, but rather assert vociferously for prayer for Pope Francis. Not Bergoglio. Why? Because his lofty position makes him more of a target for temptation – temptation that cannot be merely dismissed by enlarging the concept of infallibility to include not causing a heap of real damage.
3)I did not need to ask Doug if he were Sedevecantist for his posts indicate his leanings. But that is no cause to pillory the man or to intimate as MADDIE did, and quite unfairly, that she questions whether or not ‘they’ ever were Catholic. That, MAC, is grossly unfair and uninformed. That is eletism in its purest form as merely attending mass at the chapel with the ‘okay’ stamp in no way – especially today – assures knowing the Faith.
to MAC cont:
Quite contrary is the truth or else the pre-Synod survey wouldn’t have shown such gross malformation of the ‘faithful’.
In regards to your summary, you may want to get it out of your head to make gross assumptions about anyone posting here. And if you do want clarification of VII, you may want to thank the Society for not signing on the dotted line to say that *all of VII* is in line with Tradition when it is clearly not. That was one of the conditions, MAC.
IOW: They are on your side in that regard, MAC. So don’t accuse others of attacking when that is precisely what has been done here to others with lawful questions. Those who do love the Faith and are trying very much to reconcile the craziness that we are *all* suffering under.
oh, so believing that the Pope is Pope is “elitism”? How quaint.
MAC thank you for asking these questions of AM. In fact, you seem to be reacting to the fact that she ran interference for Doug when I confronted him on his sedevacantism. When I asked her if that made her a sedevacantist, she couldn’t just answer [for the record, she says she is not], but she also had to attack me the questioner. She’s chosen (at least as of the moment I am responding) to not attack or even answer you, instead she attacks Abeca who agrees with you (below). Ann Malley cannot differentiate between the issues raised and the people who raise them, or at least, since she is incapable of discussing issues, she attacks people that she thinks are weak. She doesn’t consider you weak, so instead, she attacks Abeca, who she believes is weak. Like a snake, she is sizing you up right now, determining whether you are weak enough to be attacked.
…your rattler is showing again, YFC.
Why you would misconstrue the truth that even Church hierarchy can ignore the promptings of the Holy Ghost as an attack makes it rather clear who the snake is. And a ‘personal’ attack at that. Fort this is what I wrote:
“…you pretend, YFC, that Cardinals do not have free will to ignore the Holy Spirit and sin just like any other man who can choose to do that which is office requires or not to do his duty.”
Why that threatens you to such a degree that you begin name calling and feigning undying loyalty to a single council while disparaging even Bishop Athanasius Schneider’s critique is predictable. You seem to prefer misconstruing duty with giving people what they want to the negation of duty. Very convenient for a snake.
Your defense of the actions of the German Bishop’s council speaks pretty clearly, too, about what side you’re on. And it is not that of a ‘holy’ council.
Ann Maley I notice you used the words “full communion” so loosely and not to it being kind nor from its real intention. Could it be that you do not understand its real usage. You have your own view on it, away from its real meaning, which in turn makes it moral relativism, a tone of it. Being in Full communion is lead by absolute truth within Christ’s church. Well in short, not going in detail, if you get it , then you do but if you don’t then you don’t. Cardinal Burke is in full communion, so are the lay faithful who honor Christ and defend His church etc…the priests, lay faithful who cause scandal or cause abuses or of poor witness, they are not in full communion. etc Disobedience does not make full communion.
…Abeca, give it up. You venturing into moral relativism when you refuse to even attempt to understand the basics of true obedience – outside blind obedience – is enough to inform me that you are not equipped for such discussion.
That said, Cardinal Burke has said he would resist even a ‘lawful’ pronouncement that would allow for giving Holy Communion to the divorced and remarried without benefit of annulment. I’m not sure how you digest that reality. But simply put, resisting that which goes against what the Church has always taught is lawful. You seem incapable or unwilling to grasp that. And until you do, dialog with you on the subject will go nowhere.
God bless you just the same.
Ann Malley glad that you want to give it up. You are right, your are not equipped. Its not going no where with you, so good point. Take care.
Oh yes …if you want me to give it up…then don’t reply. All I have to do is react to some of your comments and you seem to reply with pride, not always in kindness, oh well.
Kindness is no mask for your pride, Abeca. Especially the pride indicated by you stepping out to address moral relativism, and or erroneously attempting to slap on a new bad sounding label, when you cannot even hold a consistent position.
Readdress your own post of 2012 that Catherine provided for context and also the words of Cardinal Kasper regarding his interpretation of VII, the very same he uses. Then put that up against what the German Bishop’s conference is now attempting to do. Then put that up to the documents that issued forth from the October ’14 synod and the comments of +Baldisseri regarding evolving doctrine. then put that up against what +Burke says he would ‘have’ to resist.
That’s moral relativism, Abeca. So instead of focusing on the ‘tone’ of schism or the ‘tone’ of moral relativism, look to the actual schism and moral relativism happening all around. So no, disobedience does not make full communion, but obedience to that which is inherently ambiguous and open to interpretation does not make full communion either – it makes the whole concept of ‘full communion’ dependent upon interpretation, Abeca.
But I suppose you were just indulging in a little moral relativism when you doubted the prudence of Church authorities when they encouraged you to go to the Mormon temple as a form of ecumenical outreach. You are one confusing individual, but you probably make a kicker pot of tea!
Ann Malley I don’t get what you interpret but you seem to get the wrong impression but if you hang on, and seek the truth. I pray that you will understand some other time. I don’t know what you mean. It seems like a never ending dialogue. I already replied to Catherine above. Read that response, no need to keep going in circles.
What you see as pride, it is actually what is already within you, deep pride, that you assume it is also in others since it is the only thing you know. Its all about your perception, what comes out of your mouth is what is from your heart. So naturally you will be suspicious of others, you will assume pride because it is the only thing you are consumed in. How can you know better if that is all you know.
I’m confusing to you? Why? When I asked about tea, I was not kidding, I meant it. I would of liked to read the BIble with you and pray too. We don’t have to discuss issues like these if you didn’t want to. It must be hard for you to believe that someone actually means to open an invitation to you. You have trust issues, but who can blame you, the SSPX has caused that much in its members.
Can you please clarify as to why you find me to be a confusing individual? Do you not think that someone whom you dislike would still want to have tea with you?
Abeca, any trust issues are with whatever it is that has turned you, who formerly seemed to have some capacity to perceive that which was not right as in your 2012 post, into what you are today as evidenced by what you write now.
You seem somewhat like the council documents themselves, seemingly consistent save for that critical though small percentage that refuses to admit the error and facilitating of error provided therein. And when things break down you revert to the pride of others and misinterpretation when clarity of communication about what you actually represent is on you… or rather the document. When any inconsistency is outlined the method is always to shift back to pointing toward the reader to state how bad they are instead of clearing up the problems by admitting them and righting the language.
As for having tea, it’s not about liking or not liking somebody. I’m sorry that is your focus.
The Internet rumor that the German Bishops have threatened schism is not true.
This is clearly from a Quack-quack (always the same response) Anonymous Nervous Ordeal Duck who hasn’t read the interview, originally appearing in Die Tagepost 2/25/15. Those who want to know can read a good synopsis at Rorate Caeli blogspot (by the way, RC is NOT a dreaded quack-quack SSPX-sedesvacantist-etc. site, before the N.O. Ducks land and quack us into confusion .. )
We are human beings not ducks, Steve Phoenix. Your own personal association with the bird phyla may blind you to that fact, but we are human beings, not ducks. I think you may have seen Birdman a few too many times, and why it won the Academy Award for best picture is lost on me. Perhaps you can enlighten us, after you have risen from the ashes, oh tweety-bird!
It is not a rumor, Anonymous.
“We are no subsidiaries of Rome. Each conference of bishops is responsible for pastoral care in its culture, and must, as its most proper task, preach the Gospel on our own. We cannot wait for a synod to tell us how we have to shape pastoral care for marriage and family here”. – Cardinal Marx, Archbishop of Munich and Chairman of the German Bishops‘ Conference,.
https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2015/02/german-church-declares-independence.html
“ There are reports coming from Poland that there is going to be very, very serious resistance to any attempt to overturn doctrine, under the pretext of changing pastoral practice, but “officially” leaving doctrine untouched.
2015 may well be a year of official schism. “
https://torontocatholicwitness.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/pope-francis-schism-is-coming-and-only.html
– – –
In addition let us not forget that the German Bishop’s Conference was involved in selling pornography for more than 10 years over the objections of German Catholics just a few years ago.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/german-bishops-caught-in-massive-porn-scandal-why-didnt-they-listen-to-the
BIshops are not subsidiaries of Rome. They are ordinaries, which means that they have power authentic to their office, not derived from a higher ecclesiastical authority. I’m sorry you missed that part in the catechism, but it is there.
I think this encapsulates perfectly (“Bishops are not subsidiaries of Rome..”and ff) the point I have made: each bishop now is a mini-pope, free to operate as s/he wishes, since their “power” is “not derived from a higher ecclesiastical authority” the drift from traditional pre-conciliar Catholic teaching. Well done! If I had paraphrased this, it would have been picked apart on a technicality.
It is exactly why Marx and the German bishops are stating they will preach: a new Gospel of marriage “on their own.”
YFC is often very helpful in this department, Steve Phoenix. I’m glad he was able to deliver and so succinctly, too :)
No, this must be perfectly understood. Bishops are not a mini-pope, whatever that would mean. The Pope is a bishop. He is the Bishop of Rome. Neither the Pope nor any other bishop is free to operate as he wishes (there are no women bishops or priests in the Catholic Church.) i am not sure what you mean by the next part of your sentence. There are things in which a bishop’s decision is supreme. He would not have to consult with Rome. There are other things which he is not free to vary from, such as Catholic dogma, doctrine, most practices and disciplines.
Cardinal Marx did not say that he and the German bishops would preach a new Gospel of marriage on their own. I think you have misunderstood what was said in that interview but you may also have read it from a poor source.
For those of you who are having trouble following what the German Bishops are saying, I recommend CCC 2nd edition paragraph 879:
“Sacramental ministry in the Church, then, is a service exercised in the name of Christ. It has a personal character, and a collegial form. This is evidenced by the bonds between the episcopal college and its head, the successor of St. Peter, and in the relationship between the bishop’s pastoral responsibility for his own particular church and the common solicitude of the episcopal college for the universal Church.”
The very character of being a Bishop is to be shephard over a flock. A particular flock. That is the heart of their ministry in the name of Christ, not in the name of the Pope. The catechism goes on in subsequent paragraphs to spell this out. Nowhere does it say that Bishops define doctrine for themselves. And that is not what the Bishops of Germany are proposing. They are proposing that they take their responsibility seriously, in the name of Christ, for the pastoral care of their flock.
YFC – You are more trouble than you are worth. Your constant wrong interpretations are an abomination.
YOU will Find NOTHING about any BISHOP’s CONVERENCE in the CCC.
Conferences have only the authority given to them by each individual Diocese Bishop.
The GERMAN BISHOPs’ CONFERENCE is proposing to go against Church teaching.
Let’s not forget that the GERMAN BISHOPs’ CONFERENCE is the same group who sold pornography and info on Satanism against the objections of Catholics just a few years ago.
YFC you fool no one, you are merely hoping for a schism in the Church so that you and your practicing sodomite friends will be able to commit Sacrilege by receiving Holy Communion.
It is not bad enough that you commit perverted sex, now you want Church approval.
PETER the German Bishop’s conference is proposing no such thing. Perhaps you should re-read what they are saying.
Bishop Conferences are established in Canon Law.
canon 447-459
Sorry, Anonymous, but your blind defense is no defense against reality:
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/german-bishops-caught-in-massive-porn-scandal-why-didnt-they-listen-to-the
The above would indicate that certain prelates have been operating as they would for quite some time.
Ann Malley I noticed that you use the term “blind defense ” often. Can I ask you what does that mean to you?
Do you think people want to be blind and defend what they not know of? I don’t know what is going on in Germany but frankly, its no new news because there will always be people who choose to be in schism, its been always the case since Christ started His church. OR is it that spiritually you believe that someone is blinded by some sin that prevents them from fully getting a grip of that reality? If so how can you tell? OR is it the other way around?
So blind defense….what does it mean to Ann Malley. Does it mean that you think that Anonymous has an agenda and wants to defend something out of blindness? Do you know which anonymous you are speaking to? IF so how can you tell? Maybe it is actually called ignorance or misinformed, but the reality is that all a person has to do is look up the facts and if the sources are reliable, just like anyone else, now if you think its a pride thing where they do not want to seek the truth, then how do you really know?
I do admit that you usage of it truly has many of us use that term loosely now. But I had to figure out if it actually described the person with whom you accuse that of?
Your statement that there will always be schism negates the reality that those Bishops in Germany are using VII documents as the basis for their actions.
Blind defense in this case, to me, is Anonymous stating and you agreeing that all the hierarchy interprets VII documents by way of Tradition. They do not. And Cardinal Kasper even said as much himself:
Cardinal Walter Kasper made a stunning statement in the pages of L’Osservatore Romano this past Friday. In offering some reflections on the challenges facing the Church and the continued (perpetual) problem of the “true implementation of Vatican II”, Kasper, speaking with reference to the documents of the Council, stated:
“In many places, [the Council Fathers] had to find compromise formulas, in which, often, the positions of the majority are located immediately next to those of the minority, designed to delimit them. Thus, the conciliar texts themselves have a huge potential for conflict, open the door to a selective reception in either direction.” (Cardinal Walter Kasper, L’Osservatore Romano, April 12, 2013)
Ann Malley, how do you KNOW for a fact when someone has thought something out and made choices, or is participating in “blind defense” ?
I would like to learn your unerring mind reading capabilities. Please teach us.
Start using links to OFFICIAL Church documents to support your statements if you want people to pay attention to you.
Hearsay and your personal opinions hold no weight. You attack too many people.
Did you answer the question – are you a SEDEVACANTIS ?
Please define Sedevacantis.
Read, ANDREW. As for attacking too many people, you seem to prefer attacking ‘people’ for attacking the problems within the Church, specifically those embedded in VII documents. The ‘official’ proclamation can be read right here on CCD.
The only ones asserting mind reading capabilities are those asserting that others are seeking converts and/or questioning whether or not ‘they’ were ever ‘really’ Catholic at all. That’s mind reading, ANDREW, and a complete knee-jerk reaction/assumption.
And your pack-attack mentality completely negates your assertion that quoting ‘official’ Church documents is the only way to garner attention. I have no desire for your attention, ANDREW, but would rather see the problems of VII addressed clearly, much like I would prefer a clear statement from our Pope about his position on marriage.
You attack to vociferously in defense of that which is wreaking havoc in the Church, ANDREW. And that is far more concerning than your misperception and reading things into other’s posts. That said, personal opinions do not matter which is precisely why clarification of the ambiguities in VII documents need clarifying ASAP as they are giving way to opinion/interpretation to the detriment of many:
to ANDREW cont:
“In many places, [the Council Fathers] had to find compromise formulas, in which, often, the positions of the majority are located immediately next to those of the minority, designed to delimit them. Thus, the conciliar texts themselves have a huge potential for conflict, open the door to a selective reception in either direction.” (Cardinal Walter Kasper, L’Osservatore Romano, April 12, 2013)
So take it up with +Kasper, ANDREW.
Nice Bluff! But you did not respond to Andrew post at all.
Sorry I fed the troll.
Andrew, she only links to schismatic sources.
…are you intimating that Bishop Athanasius Schneider is schismatic, Anonymous? For I provided a link to him as well… and lifesite news is not schismatic. You can bluff and bluster all you’d like, Anonymous, but the truth will out. Every time.
Bishop Schneider is not a schismatic. He is a bishop of the Catholic Church. He does not have a website or a blog.
You are correct in saying that Lifesite News is not schismatic. It’s not Catholic either.
So I am glad that you posted to a website that is not schismatic. Have you ever posted to the Vatican website?
…good to see you backing off from the slander, Anonymous. That’s a little step forward. :)
So, when the Anonymous N.O. crowd attempts to deny that individual bishops are now given special and unique new powers at Vat2 to perhaps define their own doctrine, they choose to overlook that (Lumen Gentium n.27) they are now not vicars merely of the Roman Pontiff, but they are vicars with an authority of their own. So, it seems they can each do as they wish. Each bishop becomes a mini-pontiff, now having “the saced right and duty before the Lord to make laws for their subjects” (LG 27: read it) and to make their own judgments on “their subjects” according to their personal whim—perhaps.
Also, now because the Anon. N.O. crowd denies that “body of bishops” is a bishops’ conference, they aren’t familiar with Christus Dominus 38.1 (V2), which defines these bodies of bishops and gives episcopal conferences new special powers to adapt matters “to the circumstances of the age.” (i.e., what we used to teach and believe, we now no longer teach and believe: just perfect for Card. Marx and his disciples).
Now, the Anon. N.O. crowd wants to interpret V2 documents “their way”—denying how the statements can be interpreted “either way” or “any way”. It is always humorous to see how strictly the Anon N.O. quackers rigidly interpret our quotations and facts cited by those of us who are V2 critics, and yet so generously interpret our wayward cardinals and bishops— and PF himself—-who are always citing their new powers from V2 and their needed “adaptations” to “the circumstances of the age.”
So,, will we even have a Catholic faith in a decade or so?
Now, none of the Anonymous-Novus Oregon Ducks knew anything about the German bishops possible early break with the coming October Synod, nor about Card. Marx’s remarks clearly signaling this development: they should owe those of us who mentioned these matters (also Ann Malley, others) a debt of thanks for informing them. Now, they are experts on the matter.
It wont matter: we will get the same “quack-quack-heretic”, “quack-quack-they didn’t-say-that”, “quack-quack-that’s not what Vat II says” denials. That’s why, like ducks, they always make the same, predictable, inevitable, non-sensical noise. But others may want to look at the moves (cf Rorate Caeli BlogSpot, for one) which have reported on this impending issue. By the way, RC is about as pro-N.O. Catholic as you can get, FYI.
So, once again, the problem with Vatican II is obvious: most of it can be read in a traditionally consistent Catholic way, or it can be read another way to “do as thou wilt”.
Those bishops, either individually or as a body of bishops, who with their newly enabled V2 powers to define the Faith on their own, will advocate for the heterodox positions in parts of the Synod “relatio” addressing sexual relationships and marriage (which statements contradict Gaud.Spes 47-52); or, they will use V2 to justify wrecking Catholic houses of worship (Abp. Weakland being only one prominent example with his 2002 destruction of the traditionally Catholic interior architecture of historic St John’s Cathedral, Milwaukee); or, as Card. Marx says, the German bishops feel they can define “pastoral” practice “on their own” (2/25/15 interview, Die Tagepost).
Now, the “Quack-quack-always-the-same-answer Anonymous” blindfolded-Nervous Ordo Ducks will claim none of even these prominent examples (there are scores of them) evidence the double-meanings of Vatican II: one must have a Gnostic true knowledge of orthodoxy [that only they possess] to understand how it is all entirely orthodox. The rest of us say that it has to be defined in keeping with Scripture and Tradition as always interpreted by the Magisterium (i.e., St. Vincent of Lerins’ rule). The rest of us also say that “a tree should be judged by its fruits” (Lk 6:44)
Steve sounds like you have a lot of questions, I suggest you call Catholic Answers, they are excellent. Call my friend Tim Staples, if he is available to answer you or anyone else will do. Just don’t call them “Quack-quack-always-the-same-answer Anonymous” blindfolded-Nervous Ordo Ducks, because I doubt that they will have the patience to respond to such insults. People do not have to entertain these types of dialogue.
Blindfolded?.. I’m sorry Steve but after reading your numerous comments of the same like style….well I can’t help but want to lift you up in prayer. You have rage and anger for what you perceive, its common with many who are scandalized by heresies and schism. The cure is keeping your focused on Christ and trusting in His promises to His church, read the CCC and the Bible. I hope you join us to fight the good fight not against the mission of Christ’s church. God bless you. PAX Christi
Ah, listen, the sweet chimes of loving condescension!
Keep that blindfold tight! And your advice, too! :)
Steve its your own pride that is misleading you. You have free will. Not surprised by your reply. Its full of pride. Pride is the root of all evil. Take care.
You don’t seem to understand the mission of Christ’s Church, Abeca, or the nature of living through and battling ‘for’ the Faith in times of crisis.
But God bless you anyway.
Abeca Christian, very much understands the mission of Christ’s Church (the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church) and the nature of living through and battling for the Faith in and out of times of crisis. Abeca Christian realizes the real crisis and does not run away from the problems. Abeca Christian took her time to try to save you from eternal death. She got treated the same way Jesus did.
Matthew 5:10-12 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you.”
Jesus never once contradicted Himself. But, alas, that is what the Church hierarchy is attempting to do in His name. And that is precisely what Abecca Christian is doing when she disregards even Cardinals and Bishops who are this very day attempting to change what Christ taught.
That’s facilitating, not faithfulness.
You are seriously crying before you are hurt.
Ann Malley,
I agree with the following that was posted by someone else.
Start using links to OFFICIAL Church documents to support your statements if you want people to pay attention to you.
Hearsay and your personal opinions hold no weight. You attack too many people, and sound just like a Sedevacantis.
You make way to many false assumptions about other posters.
Are you a SEDEVACANTIS ?
Please define Sedevacantis.
Why are you afraid to answer this question ?
No Ann Malley its you who does not undetstand. Im detecting that your pride is hurt by what you are declaring and how defensive you are.
…you agree then, JANET, to believing hearsay and personal opinion over reality. That and not reading for understanding or even following posts. And so, it would seem, does Abeca Christian.
God bless you just the same :)
“Janet” and “Andrew” and one of the Anonymous are one (and one or two other posters) and the same. No need to be deceptive, Dear Ducks. It’s the same quacking vocabulary and style. One must be afraid to be so deceptive. “Quack-quack!” :)
She is not a sedevacantist. She is a troll. Please stop feeding it.
Ann Malley you certainly have your own opinions. Well it is what it is. Lets agree to DISAGREE. I’m sorry that you feel that way about me. I can assure you, you misunderstand but I am not sorry about disagreeing with any schism or heresy. Nuff said.
Read the CCC and holy scriptures and trust in Jesus and His promises. If you follow that, reflect for some time, it may lead you back to His church. God bless you.
Ann Malley why follow every post…it seems like its just the same old arguments. Who has the time, some have the time to cut and paste old conversations. But one thing for sure, we can detect who truly are the lay faithful. or who seek to be. NO one is perfect like our heavenly Father is. Awe to be human, Sure has its draw backs but certainly is a gift to be alive. God help us and we pray for His mercy.
Well Ann Malley don’t be bitter against me. Can we shake hands and call it a day. You know often I see men, they get in a disagreement and at the end of the day, they shake hands and hold no grudges. I would like to do that with you. Because I feel that ladies can too….
Jesus is precious….life is too short. Ann Malley answer this if you want….. What is the worst thing that can happen to us while here on earth? Well what is it for you? Looking forward to your answer. Smile and be lost in Jesus arms, a good reflection to escape from all the chaos that this life throws at us ….life’s too short .
Saving one’s soul is most important, Abeca, obviously. And that is had by keeping the Faith. All of it. Not using ‘authority’ and ‘obedience’ to foment ‘pastoral’ approaches to condone sin while negating the One in whose arms one wants to be lost.
If you cannot see the problem, you will not be held accountable. But those who do see and do not resist or, at the very least, do not speak out against it will be held accountable. And not to you, Abeca. But to God who sees all….. hearts, too. Something that no chat over tea will facilitate. Not even with the nicest of smiles.
So if you do not want what you perceive as bitter, do not attempt to misconstrue and/or speak for others by projecting an ill will that is only in your imagination. And whereas you may think rereading your own posts is a waste of time, in reality, it would be time well spent for it would give you an idea of why others find your shifting positions rather confusing.
“Life is too short” and making comments like “some have the time to copy and paste old conversations” shows that you really don’t think that life is too short. Tea anyone?—-. And no you don’t hold grudges when you are actually called out on your inconsistency either. I am not talking about inconsistency in the faith Abeca. I am referring to insulting the Pope and then flip flopping and your name calling lack of charity to Christ’s lambs who HAVE been deliberately scattered by wolves. Our Lord did not lie when he talked about wolves scattering his flock. Your selective correction policy is based on who is enamored with your informing them about your nice figure and smile. Don’t deny telling the entire blogosphere how girls were jealous of you’re figure and nice smile. C’mon Abeca, Don’t deny it. Is that the new evangelization technique by visual implanting? Meanwhile, you had the beautiful opportunity to show that there are those who have remained in a diocese who understand what Bishop Athanasius Schneider is saying about clarifying ambiguities.
You will deny it but YOU chose to attack Ann Malley first and then invite someone that you just called “slimey” for tea and now you even try to swipe a little dig at me while then saying that life is too short. Inconsistency personified. BTW.. Your new defender is YFC. Abeca Christian meets YFC INDEED! Not a good sign.
“Looking forward to an answer?” = The CCC Second edition answer is # 675 – The Church’s ultimate trial. – Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. 574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth 575 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh. 576
676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, 577 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.578
continued…..
It is very clear to anyone who knows the Catholic Faith. Just like every other thing in the Catholic Faith. It begs questions from those who don’t know. Jesus is the Son of God. Is He the only Son or does God have other sons? Did he make those Sons? Jesus is the only-Begotten Son of God. What does begotten mean? Not made. Say what?
Faith and reason is necessary to understand the Catholic Church.
Things get clarified when people start teaching things wrong. There is always a period of confusion. Remember the 70s and 80s?
Things will all work out. Pray and trust God.
If these things bother you, your lucky you didn’t live before Vatican II.
As others have said:
No need for confusion at all.
Just read a Catholic Bible, and the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, second edition” from the Magisterium at home.
Then you will know which Clergy are in error, regardless of rank.
You will know if high ranking clergy are heretics, etc.
You will be able to spot error whether accidental or purposeful.
There is no excuse for the literate to be lazy. Anyone can make some time at home to read.
Steve, nowhere does it say that a bishop or body of bishops has the power to define the faith for themselves.Where do you get such nonsense? Don’t claim that comes from VII, because you will not find it there. You make it up, so that you can pretend it comes from VII, and then rail against everything else in VII. BE honest. Read what is there, not what you are afraid it says.
Now, this person (YFC) in a post above, says “BIshops are not subsidiaries of Rome. They are ordinaries, which means that they have power authentic to their office, not derived from a higher ecclesiastical authority.”
So this full-view evidence of the Vat II drift,as vaguely seen in Lumen Gent. 25ff is exactly where YFC acknowledges that effectively now, a bishop or body of bishops has the power to define the faith for themselves: they have the power, right? Or no? Which is it?
No.
You are completely misunderstanding what it means.
Please read the CCC 871-896.
Learning the faith is a life-long process that one should never neglect.
YFC is a heretic and schismatic who fully supports sodomy and sodomy marriage. He has posted his support for these himself.
So he picks and chooses which teachings of the Church he will support that sometimes he gets confused.
Individual Bishops have authority within their own Diocese only.
Conferences of Bishops have zero authority except that which each Diocese Bishop chooses to give them.
Neither are the Magisterium of the Church.
Neither has the authority to change the “Doctrine of the Faith”,
or the Litergy.
All must abide by Sacred Scripture, and the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, second edition”. But do they all ? –
not always – because of: sin, greed, and pride within their ranks.
When you have a bad Bishop or bad Bishop’s Conference, you really need to read Sacred Scripture and the CCC at home more than ever.
Or you will never know the TRUTH.
And like wolves in sheep’s clothing they will lead you astray.
Excellent post Steve Phoenix. The fact that this individual or individuals, (who post as YFC) feel the likeminded leveraging/clout behind the distorted view of Catholicism also speaks volumes. The smoke of many YFC’s has certainly entered the sanctuary and sacked many altars and churches.
No Steve Phoenix, if all you can do to prove your point is to put words into people’s mouths then you must not have a point to make. No prelate – Bishop or even the Pope – has the “power to define the faith for themselves”. Vatican II does not say that, I do not say that, and if you persist in putting that formula that you have used before into the mouths of people, then you will be lying.
Perhaps you should direct your comment, RLC, to the clergy currently misusing said teachings to the detriment of all. It would seem they neglect the study of the Faith in lieu of studying methods to get around the Faith.
Maybe your admonishment of their confused applications would aid in solving the problem…. and keep the German Bishops from threatening actual schism in future.
Thanks again, YFC. So I can take it then when you gratuitously put words into other people’s mouths that that is a tacit admission of your having no legitimate basis of argumentation or legitimacy?
Of course, I already understood the latter, but having your word on it is so much the sweeter. Especially the admission of lying part.
Once again, YFC, delivers!
Ann Malley, I do not appreciate you muddying the waters with your own personal issues and fantasies about the Church. I think your charge against our priests is scurrilous and sinful.
Maybe you just don’t like the Catholic Church. Maybe you seek to hasten Her demise (which will never occur) by calumny and libel and other grave sins. However…
It seems the greatest possibility is that you are just trying to be provocative for your own personal entertainment. Your comment on the stupid internet rumor about the German Bishops gives it that appearance.
Don’t you have anything better to do with your life than troll on the Internet?
RCL, if you believe the article on the German Bishops is just a stupid rumor, I have no doubt you find anyone dispelling your happy dreams to be a rough awakening.
Perhaps you should take advantage of the mud, wash with it and then rinse your eyes so that you can see clearly. If you let the mud dry in a defiant cake, nobody will be able to help you.
That said, I have no desire whatever for your appreciation. But I find it interesting that you would waste valuable time on something you consider such a nothing.
Perhaps you should take your upset to the German Bishop’s conference and tell them to cease and desist because you are disturbed by their actions. Good grief. Don’t you have anything better than to play cover up for those trolling inside the Catholic Church? Or it is the greatest possibility that you have absolutely no understanding of what others are talking about.
Jumping off the cliff of compromise is no sign of Faith, friend, but rather presumption and an overt attempt to put God to the test. Something Our Lord says quite clearly not to do. The Church is to put Her trust in God and the fullness of Faith and God will bring unity – not us by constantly selling out Our Lord for the sake of keepin’ it together.
I am always bemused by the mightily-offended feelings of the Anonymous N.O. Ducks and their accolytes, who quack-quack out that everyone else is “heretic”, “schismatic”, “sedesva-caaantist”, but suffer outrage when one refuses to take them seriously and duckify them(“Quack-quack!”) Did any of you ever care about the insults tossed at Anne Malley, Catherine, Doug, others? No: The N.O. Ducks MUST be taken seriously, or they are greatly wounded. The Ducks have the same knee-jerk reflex of truly offensive name-calling, but they take great umbrage at being considered a predictable quacker. “Quack-quack, you-are-a-her-e-tic-quack!” I laugh at it all.
But never do the Nervous Ordo Ducks want to take off the blindfold and look at the issues we have raised: principally, the catastrophic decline of our Church,nor to identify its causes. The causes are right there in our own fine “prelates” who cite Vat II as their authority when it suits them, or who break with V2 {such as the pending abandoning of traditional marriage, Gaud.Spes 47-52) when they feel otherwise. The German Church is in free-fall in its numbers, down to about 30% (from 45% in West Germany in the 1990’s): their leaders’ answer is to abandon the indissolubility of marriage, a matter so clearly defined by Clement VII v. Henry VIII (1531). And the present pontiff seems to tolerate this ambiguity.
Because it’s just such an intelligent level of discussion here.
Here’s some news to discuss about the Church-
-It’s Vatican II. That’s what caused it.
-These are the fruits of Vatican II
-There are 5 sentences in Vatican II that have rendered the Church invalid.
-Vatcian II did not change dogma but it changed dogma
-It’s the gays and the homoheretics who have changed dogma
-Quack Quack Novus Ordo Ducks
-The schismatics are the true Catholics.
-The Germans are going into schism
-The Pope is from the devil.
-Liberals arranged Vatican II so that they and modernists took over the Church.
-Faithful priests are persecuted by their bishops.
-Read the Bible and the Catechism
Did I miss anything?
Well, only the facts of the discussion. But after all, , that isn’t important—it gets jn the way of pillorying your perceived enemies.
Steve Phoenix, I do not perceive enemies. And I have not pilloried anyone. My point is – There ARE no facts in the discussions here. Any discussion about facts just gets halted in its tracks by comments like the one above.
And by all the pet personal agenda items that keep coming up over and over that are entirely irrelevant. Know what one of mine is? Catholics that shop or go out to eat on Sunday in violation of the 3rd Commandment. Do I bring it up 10 times a day?
Certain posters provoke a response because what they are posting is dangerous to souls. And they derail every significant discussion. Think it is a coincidence? I don’t.
Talk facts, Please. And stick to the subject at hand. I think we all would enjoy that.
I do not mind you bringing up the interview with Cardinal Marx. It is a very discussable subject but not if people are so ignorant of the workings of the Church that they think the German Bishops are threatening schism. To educate people in how the Church works is just too difficult in a forum like this.
Another good subject is the impact that Internet errors are having on Catholics. And Catholic clergy like Pope Francis, Cardinal Burke, Cardinal Marx.
Discussion of the proposals on divorced and remarried persons would be fine. But people just stop the discussion by idiot talk about sentences in Vatican II needing clarification or modernists.
Apologies, then: you must be a different Anonymous. So hard to tell the Ducks from the thought-motivated.
(but the straw-man list doesn’t help the discussion either..)
And if you want to discuss something seriously or have a real conversation. since I know you do not like to address anonymous posters, I will use a name.
Yes, Anonymous, you missed that “Vatican II is confusing, but I’m not sure what I’m confused about, why are you so confused about what I am confused about”
But you would make a great writer on David Letterman nonetheless :D
Since the many V2 decrees and constitutions says show
Since so many Vat2 decrees and constitutions show an almost infinite capacity for ambiguity–unlike Trent or Vatican I—Vat2 can mean virtually anything to anyone. This shouldn’t be cause for accusations about one’s fidelity to Church doctrine: it should be evidence of one’s concern and commitment. Ha!
But don’t the proud N.O.-defenders want to demand answers from those who are putting the Faith in doubt? Why don’t they ask Card. Marx if he intends to change the practice on marriage and sexual morality (instead of unquestioningly feting him, as the Diocese of San Jose did in January at their chancery)? Why don’t the proud Ducks want to know the truth about Baldisseri ‘ s statement that doctrine can “evolve?” Why is Pope Francis silent on protecting the marriage bond?
And don’t send me to some checked – pants Catholic guy at “Catholic Answers”, who will tell us some pious platitudes while the Church disintegrates and burns. Do you want to know the truth? Take off the blindfold and find out for yourself.
If you want to waste your time worrying about this junk, go ahead. I believe in God. I trust God. I love God. I am docile to His teachings. Worry all you want. Let it turn you against your neighbor and cause you to sin. You have free will. We can’t stop you.
None of us have blindfolds on. We just have faith.
Right, a holy mystic bedeviled by the impious, “Judica me, Deus, et discerna causa mea, et doloso erue me.” Not a bit sanctimonious either.
YFC on 1 March you wrote:
“Doug I am not mixed up. The path I have taken is the path of a Sacred Ecumenical Council and the pontiffs that presided over it and have been implementing it. You are the one who has strayed from the path, claiming as you do that these popes are not valid popes and that the council was not a valid council. You compound matters by taking people of catholic faith by the hand and guiding them off the path of the catholic church. This is a sad state of affairs, for you, for those you mislead, and for the entire people of God”.
My response: 1) State what was so sacred about the V2 Council please. It opened the doors for all the current encyclical errors, liturgical abuses, and loss of the RC faith in millions of souls. Would a one holy RC and apostolic Church have actually done that? I don’t think so. 2) I have not stated that the popes are invalid and the V2 Council was invalid. You are stating that. I have stated that the V2 Church “sacraments” are invalid because they were ALL changed. The first was Holy Orders! Of course you don’t dare want to think about what that could mean, but it is a fact. Fortunately some old true RC bishops prior to the changes saw the errors and ordained young men priests using the old valid Sacrament of Holy Orders.
Doug what makes Vatican II sacred is the gift of the Holy Spirit which always guides the Bishops and Pope gathered in ecumenical council. I’m sorry you have problems with its teachings and changes to the liturgies that it called for. Truly, I feel sorry for you. But that does not make it correct to say that the sacraments are invalid. You are, objectively, incorrect.
Doug, those who are proposing that others allege that V2 is invalid and that recent popes may be invalid do so because they are afraid that they may be so; but they are afraid to honestly face it. That is now the only possible explanation. They clearly know something is deeply wrong in the Church: better to find some one to blame (traditionals; sedes-vacaaahn-tists; Ann Malley).
Neither do I claim either position: but it is clear that our leadership and their sycophants bear the responsibility.
Also, watch out, Doug: you may be drowned in condescending “sorrow” for thinking through these matters. Of course, the issues can’t be answered: so our blindfolded N.O. friends will condescend to “feel sorry” for us. How sweet!
Yes i do condescend to feel sorry for people who go through life sowing dissension among the faithful. Instead of recognizing the Spirit at work in the Church, you seek to turn many from it. Instead of living ever more faithfully to the teachings of the Church, you define what you believe is acceptable teaching and that which you reject. You put people who follow the Sacred Councils and Popes on the defensive, mocking those who call them “sacred”, calling them names and belittling their beliefs in the Church. If this nastiness, name-calling, and divisiveness is somehow a marker of your greater faithfulness to the Gospel or to our Lord, then one would think that the peace of Christ would calm your rhetoric at some point.
I know I said I enjoy good theater, YFC, so please have mercy. ‘Sacred’ council issuing forth from your posts is a tad hackneyed. And while the ‘Holy’ Spirit was indeed have been invited to the council, the embedded VII compromise formulas would indicate another spirit or spirits may have crashed. Hiding perhaps beneath a biretta or two in order to plant the seeds of dissension from what the Church has always taught.
That said, Christ was fully at peace when He very animatedly overturned the tables of the money changers. Why? Because He was wholly justified and doing His duty. Confusing peace with passivity is a grave mistake.
Those who predictably quack like a duck (“Herrr-e-tic! Schis-maaa-tic, quack-quack! Sedes-va-caaan-tist! “), attack like a N.O.duck (ganging up on some posters) and who condescendingly judge people’s hearts like a cowardly Duck (“Naaastiness! “Naaame-calling! Di-viiiiisive!”), will be inevitably dubbed a N.O. duck. Wear the plumage proudly. And you can spare me (or Doug, or Anne M., or St Christopher, or Catherine, for that matter) your predictable mix of quacking accusations dissembling sorrow for us: it is a self-mocking comedy act with which we are all familiar.. And I return to the issue:
When people get into trouble about the ambiguities that are rife in Vat II, actually stating (see above, 3/2/15, 3:27pm YFC) that “..bishops are not subsidiaries of Rome. …they have power authentic to their office, not derived from a higher ecclesiastical authority” (Really? Independent of the pontiff?), they prove the entire ambiguous language of Lumen Gentium, esp. 25-28: bishops now can act autonomously. This is exactly what Card. Marx and the German Conference is saying they will now do: define their own moral doctrine. Don’t blame them: they cite V2 all the time as their authority. (And don’t hide behind the CCC: you don’t hear Marx or Kasper quoting THAT ever. The CCC is not the issue at all.)
If by the same token bishops are not subsidiaries of Rome, it logically means they can act on their own.
You fell into a trap set by a troll.
Just cause you can’t actually read the document and understand it, does not mean its ambiguous. It does not matter what YFC wrote. It does matter what is in the catechism.
Learn the Faith so you don’t get fooled again.
From an interview by America, 1/22/2015, Card. Marx states:
“It [the question of divorce, the theology of marriage] is a question of aggiornamento, to say it in a way that people can understand, and to always adapt our doctrine to the Gospel, to theology, in order to find in a new way the sense of what Jesus said, the meaning of the tradition of the church and of the theology and so on.”
Here,yet again, prima facie evidence of Marx relying on an ambiguous Vatican II concept (aggiornamento, “updating”, originating from an address by John XXIII in June 1961 prior to the Council: it actually no where appears in any conciliar decrees [but the N.O. ducks and their cheerleaders didn’t know that]) to justify the German bishops changing “pastoral care” because (his words) “they will preach the Gospel on their own” and teach marriage “in a new way.” They just have to “update” marriage for modern man and woman.
So, Marx, also Kasper (who has a long history of opposing the Catholic bond of marriage: he signed a letter in 1993 advocating divorce for Catholics), and ostensibly-retired but still highly influential Card. Lehmann (who has long preached about changing Catholic marriage: he was also an episcopal consecrator of Kasper) are preparing to go it alone, since the October 2015 Synod is shaping up that they will not be able to obtain their ends. And what is their justification? Of course: Vatican II.
Also, does anyone notice how little Christ and the specifics of His Gospel is mentioned as the rule of doctrine (Mt. 19:3-12 esp)? It certainly seems Clement VII went to a lot of trouble defending the marriage bond vs. Henry VIII (1531): too bad Henry wasn’t a modern-day German follower of Card. Marx. He would be due an apology if he were condemned to hell for his re-marriage(s).
Your confusing the issue when you bring up Henry XIII.
Now lets gets to facts or the few facts that we know:
This article seems to contain the most facts about the situation with the Gernan Bishops.
https://americamagazine.org/issue/german-bishops-speak-out-communion-divorced-remarried
I would appreciate it if you would read it and then we could discuss it.
I warn you it is sobering and could be upsetting to you.
Even though the German bishops are only talking about allowing certain cases of divorced and remarried couples to receive communion, do you think the end result would be that any divorced and remarried couple will feel entitled to received Communion?
Do you think that Bishops should allow the fact that people distance themselves from the Church to influence their pastoral practice in this instance? Are there other solutions such as education that might be more appropriate?
Are the German bishops just trying to bring the practice that is already being done out into the open and attempting to get Church approval for it?
So in terms of what you bring up about hell and being condemned for remarriage, obviously, no one is ever let out of hell. But if a person would normally be sent to hell for their sins and the German bishops normalize the sin, do the bishops take the place of the laity in hell?
Well, well: a NO Duck is confusing his English kings (Henry the Thirteenth? XIII? I meant Henry the EIGHTH, for those of you in Rio Linda) and as well is now referring me to an “America” interview (1/22/15) I already noted to him. I am glad I am being advised to read the article I mentioned to the N.O. Duck flock previously. It must be good now: even they recommend it.
(If I had recommended it, it would probably have been dismissed as probably “sedes-va-caaan-tist, quack-quack!”) :)
How could you even see a duck over that chip on your shoulder?
Mar. 2 2015, 3:27pm: (YFC) in a post above, states “Bishops are not subsidiaries of Rome. They are ordinaries, which means that they have power authentic to their office, not derived from a higher ecclesiastical authority.”
This is a loose interpretation perhaps of n. 27, Lumen Gentium: “Nor are they[bishops] to be regarded as vicars of the Roman Pontiff, for they exercise an authority which is proper to them…”, and earlier, they “have a right to make laws for their subjects.” Thus the ambiguity of Vat II: are they independent and on their own? YFC says their “power” is not derived from a higher ecclesiastical authority.
Great: then the SSPX, CMRI, and other traditionalist groups’ bishops have a right on their own to consecrate bishops and ordain priests, without any oversight from a higher authority, such as Rome, right? After all, YFC says, ““Bishops are not subsidiaries of Rome. They are ordinaries, which means that they have power authentic to their office, not derived from a higher ecclesiastical authority.”
Great: They can tell the pontiff and Fr. Volpi (the authoritarian regent appointed over the Franciscans of Mary Immaculate) to take a hike, right?
No, not every Bishop is an ordinary. Retired bishops, auxiliary bishops, and bishops that have church jobs are not ordinaries. Similarly, bishops ordained without the consent of Rome are not ordinaries.
Sorry, the post at 4:29 PM was from me. I was posting from another device and it didn’t capture my moniker. To restate, Steve Phoenix tried to apply the concept of ordinary power (as opposed to delegated power) to put forth the idea that SSPX ordinations are a-ok. That would not be correct, Steve, because not every bishop is an ordinary. Retired bishops, auxiliary bishops, and bishops that have some curial jobs are not ordinaries. Similarly, bishops ordained without the consent of Rome are not ordinaries.
This is another mistaken concept—that retired bishops or auxiliary bishops (vicars general) are somehow not “ordinaries”, if this is to claim by inference that they cannot consecrate or ordain: these bishops still have the full power of valid succession and full power to consecrate and ordain. “Ordinary” in the Catholic reference to a bishop simply means that the prelate has sufficient power to carry out his office. He may or may not have a territorial jurisdiction. Only superiors of major orders are not ordinaries.
This attempts to sidestep the proposition made that: “Bishops are not subsidiaries of Rome. They are ordinaries, which means that they have power authentic to their office, not derived from a higher ecclesiastical authority.” (YFC, 3/2/15). Great: There is no distinction made between bishops and ordinaries in this claim. For that matter, there is no distinction made in Lumen Gent.’s ambiguous language that “bishops are not vicars of Rome, but for they exercise an authority which is proper to them…” So, one can read that either way you want. Abp. Lefebvre and other independent (and validly consecrated bishops, mind you) prelates have their own proper authority to consecrate and ordain. You can walk back this alternate interpretation because one doesn’t like it.
YFC,
So your sole and only answer to calling the V2 Council sacred is that it was guided by the Holy Spirit. Where is the proof? How could that be when Paul the VIth at the time of the V2 Council declared that ‘the smoke of Satan had entered the Vatican’? How do you account for that? Or all the following scandals? Care to justify?
My comments are not to lead away anyone from the RCC. For V2 members and those millions who have lost their ties to catholicism entirely that has already happened. ‘By their fruits you shall know them’ says the Lord. The Holy Bible forecasts the end times, a great apostacy will arise, and Our Lady warned us in a few separate apparitions that even the elect would be deceived. Sadly the third secret of Fatima was never truthfully revealed.
My comments are to help people become aware of what has happened, and to seek and return to their true Roman Catholic faith, practice it, worship our Lord in the only befitting manner He prescribed to satisfy His Holy Father in, and to receive the sanctifying graces that are so necessary for the salvation of our souls. It’s up to the readers to pray to God to give them the courage to face the truth, show His way and lead them back to the true RC faith which will open the doors to Him and Blessed Mother Mary’s Sacred and Immaculate Hearts respectively.
The promise of the Holy Spirit is that he will be with the Church until Christ comes again. This is not an empty promise, or a promise for which one has to look far. The visible church, the Bishops in union with the Pope, are principle recipients of the promise of the Spirit, a promise that guarantees that in its solemn declarations of faith it cannot err. My proof is my faith in that guarantee. I pray that the Spirit might increase our faith.
“That They May All Be One”: The Principle of Collegiality By Philip C. L. Gray
“Human nature being what it is sometimes the Principle of Collegiality becomes distorted and can stifle the witness of individual bishops by reducing the exercise of their Teaching Office to the least common denominator. We might speculate that this is what Alfredo Cardinal Ottaviani had in mind some forty years ago when he was reported to have said that the only passage in Scripture that he could find in support of collegiality was Matthew 26:56: And they all fled.”
Unfortunately, the Ruling Office lends itself most easily to abuse. Because of concupiscence, power has the tendency to corrupt man. And, just as Eve’s curse was to be lorded over by her husband, so it is a curse of the People of God when a bishop or groups of bishops lord it over them. Christifidelis readers know how frequently a prudential decision—like closing a parish or selling a church—is evaluated by higher authority simply on whether or not the decision fallswithin a bishop’s right to make the decision. Very little consideration is given to the Principle of Collegiality, from which the Principle of Subsidiarity flows.
https://www.catholiccanonlaw.com/collegiality.pdf
continued……..
That They May All Be One”: The Principle of Collegiality By Philip C. L. Gray
“If we evaluate abuses of power in accord with the Principle of Collegiality, we would turn to the four identifying factors of collegiality and ask first, how does this decision or act of power advance the unity of those affected with God? As a canon lawyer who provides representation and advocacy for those grieved in the Church, I frequently find myself assisting clients through crisis of faith caused by abusive acts of power that are termed “prudential decisions.” I cannot help but conclude that the inferior notion of “protecting assets” or “saving face” all too often supersedes the primary purpose of all men that must motivate every act of power in the Church— the union of each man with God. ”
https://www.catholiccanonlaw.com/collegiality.pdf
YFC, There is no need to think that I am sorrowing over the V2 Church, I am not a protestant any longer after believing there was no choice for 20 years. One day by the grace of God, I met a very holy and inspiring order of valid Roman Catholics, priests, nuns, and laity. Wow I almost had forgotten what I was missing, what I had experienced in my childhood before V2. The RC faith had all comeback again. A time when there was NO ecumenism scandals (Remember Assisi and the Hindu Shiva priestess with JPII and etc?), liberation theology, moral controversies, wide-spread violating of sacraments (like divorces and annulments), doctrinal changes and confusion, rampant priest pedophiles, and liturgical abuses in the Roman Catholic Church. Those awful sins didn’t exist in the RC Church hierarchy like it does today in the wayward V2 Church. Back then for anyone who was formed as a Roman Catholic correctly, they knew the RC Catechism, understood the Holy Sacrifice of the Tridentine Latin Mass even though it was spoken and sung in Latinas well as the Sacraments. Catholics back then knew where they stood, hadn’t widespread disagreements like what we read above, went to the Sacrament of Penance after they committed wrong against their neighbors, kept their spouses, (rather than having a few kids then ridiculously getting an annulment), had a deep love for God and fear of offending Him.
So let’s just be clear here: You are saying that because there is sin in the Church, its councils and sacraments and popes are invalid? And don’t go back and say you never said that the councils and popes and sacraments are invalid, because you did.
The grand finale:
But today in the V2 smorgasboard where anything protestant goes, well I guess that says it all. I am happy that havoc is all behind me and not in front of me. Returning to the true Roman Catholic faith 28 wonderful years ago I know where God wants me, reverently worshipping Him and assisting our holy priests, bishop and nuns as God wills. I never had to worry about my children’s religious education, formation, safety, or souls. I never had to worry about any of those scandals or liturgical abuses I’ve listed above, waiting for deceiving alibies, or false justifications by their defenders. I’ve never had to worry about justifying shameful, embarrassing, unsensible scandals to others.
In my RC parish practicing tradition we are all focused on pleasing God before ourselves. He matters first and most! That is Catholic! Our Final Judgment by Him depends on our willingness to resign ourselves to Him. If we don’t do so on earth, how can our resulting pride and narcissism be expected to put Him first in Heaven? No one can enter Heaven with an impurity on their soul, and although we all stumble and fall, we certainly don’t want to spend anytime in the pains of Purgatory. W
In my RC Parish following tradition we all look ahead with happy hearts knowing each of us receives Jesus every weekend, body, soul, and divinity in Holy Communion. We affirm His presence by the powerful effect He has on our lives.
If you are attending a RC parish that is not in union with the Catholic Church headed by Pope Francis, you have more than a small impurity on you soul. If you die, you will go to hell. If you are not resigned to the fact the there is one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and it is the one headed by the Pope as spelled out in the Catechism of Trent, you are not resigned to Christ.
From Article IX
the Prophets spoke more plainly and openly of the Church than of Christ, foreseeing that on this a much greater number may err and be deceived than on the mystery of the Incarnation. For in after ages there would not be wanting wicked men who, like the ape that would fain pass for a man, would claim that they alone were Catholics, and with no less impiety than effrontery assert that with them alone is the Catholic Church.
….you should write this to the Bishops and the Pope, Anonymous. For, at least in actions, it would appear the Holy Father disagrees with you with regard to Hell. That is ‘the’ problem, Anonymous. The disconnect between what the Church has always taught and what is being ‘allowed’ now….
Aping fidelity by negating the rampant destruction of the Faith from within by way of calling everything pastoral is the problem, Anonymous. So get with the program, acknowledge the problem, and address your diatribes to the one’s wreaking the havoc:
675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576
If you want it sent to the Bishops you do it and have the guts to use your real name.
You have already failed the trial by leaving the Church. I watch people fall for your evil errors and sins on this website and I have more than once thought about the final trial. I will stay with the Church because that is how you conquer.
God bless you, Anonymous, but you should probably avoid the internet all together. The following in the CCC is written for good reason:
675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576
Ann Malley is not the expert of the end times. Just in case you all were wondering. An appeal to the end times is not a reason to neglect the teachings of the Catholic Church, unless I misread the catechism or the code of canon law somewhere. Please enlighten me.
And YFC is no expert of yielding the will to Sacred Councils or Popes unless they allow for the ambiguity of the pastoral gifts of choosing intrinsically disordered sin by way of a discombobulated sense of conscience. A malformed conscience.
So whereas an appeal to the end times is not a reason to neglect the teachings of the Catholic Church, I’m curious what are your reasons for rejecting and publicly flouting the teachings of Church, YFC?
Please…. enlighten everyone.
AM, yes we know.
….but you obviously don’t know Canon law, Anonymous, otherwise you wouldn’t suggest that quoting canon law is trolling and/or be so fearful about exploring the realities of it.
And who is ‘we’ precisely in your mind?
AM, I think you might be the world’s greatest expert on aping fidelity, but like the ape, when you are asked to do something that you haven’t taught yourself to imitate yet, it reveals your true nature.
As usual your post makes no sense except to say a personal attack is all you’ve got to bring to the table. Stick to the issues, Anonymous. And leave off talk of guts as it does nothing but call attention to your lack thereof.
This is true. One’s Church MUST be in union with the Pope, or it is schismatic.
We must stay always stay within the Catholic Church – which includes the Pope.
Being schismatic or a heretic are Mortal Sins.
However we do not have to believe EVERYTHING that the Pope states because of his limited/personal experience as a human being which can be in error.
For example he is NOT an EXPERT in economics, food production, distribution of goods, or climate change.
We MUST NEVER do anything that violates the Doctrine of the Faith as stated in Sacred Scripture and the CCC – no matter who says so.
Here is an official important example:
Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict) stated in 2004 –
” 3. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia.
For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war,
he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion.
While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment.
There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty,
but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.”
https://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm
The Code of Canon Law nowhere says that illicit consecration of bishops is a schismatic offense. In the 1983 Code of Canon Law, episcopal consecration without papal mandate is not found under the section of “Offences against Religions and the unity of the Church.”
Since schism is defined by the same Code as “the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him” (Canon 751), Archbishop Lefebvre could only be accused of schism if he had by the consecrations sought to start his own church or attempted to give jurisdiction to the bishops he consecrated. That was manifestly not the case. Facing the end of his life, and after strenuous and long lasting efforts in the struggle for Tradition, the Archbishop wanted to provide the means to ensure that the Mass, the orthodox priesthood and the means of preserving and protecting Tradition would be passed on. His concern was for the salvation of souls.
https://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Episcopal-Consecration.htm
“Mere contempt of a precept or law of the Pope, no matter how grave or obstinate, is mere disobedience of a precept, and therefore not schismatic in its essence, and hence, does not separate one from the Church.” – Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, II-II, q.12, a. 1 ad 3
There is a very significant point that needs to be made in relation to the episcopal conscecrations on 30 Jun3 1988. When Archbishop Lefebvre was sent the canonical warning by Cardinal Gantin on June 17, 1988, the warning did not include mention of schism anywhere. Don’t anyone tell me that that was some accidental oversight and omission.
The Pope, as supreme legislator, can add new canons to the Code. But he cannot make something schismatic that is not inherently so. Archbishop Lefebvre knew that when he acted, as a true Catholic Bishop, out of grave concern for the salvation of souls, and “handed on what I have received”.
Canon 751 of the 1983 Code, as stated previously, defines schism as “the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him”. The Catholic Encyclopedia teaches this manifestly: “Not every disobedience is a schism; in order to possess this character it must include besides the transgression of the commands of superiors, denial of their Divine right to command” Neither Archbishop Lefebvre nor the Society has ever denied the Pope’s authority to command. I think the Archbishop’s attitude has been spelt out. If anyone thinks the Society’s position has changed one iota, they ought to read the Declaration of the Society’s General Chapter last year. It includes the following:
“We reaffirm our faith in the Roman Catholic Church, the unique Church founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ, outside of which there is no salvation nor possibility to find the means leading to salvation; our faith in its monarchical constitution, desired by Our Lord Himself, by which the supreme power of government over the universal Church belongs only to the Pope, Vicar of Christ on earth…”
How many of those who declare the Society “schismatic” would put their names to that Declaration?
Well at least AM gets some teeth finally. However, her arguments are insufficient to protect AB Lefebvre from the charge of schism, even by her own profferings. She quotes the ever magisterial authority “the Catholic Encyclopedia”: “Not every disobedience is a schism; in order to possess this character it must include besides the transgression of the commands of superiors, denial of their Divine right to command”. Except that Lefebvre disobeyed direct orders of the Pope to not ordain. By the act itself, by its nature following the canonical warning, it denied the Popes divine right to command. She is essentially saying that it is OK to raid the candy jar as long as I understand that I am raiding the candy jar and so long as I know that it is wrong for me to raid the candy jar. Hello, you raided the candy jar knowing that it was wrong to raid the candy jar and in disobedience to the authority that told you it would be wrong if you were to do so.
Bishops may ordain other bishops if, for example, consulting with Rome would mean death to the ordained bishop. This, for example, happenned in places like China. Those ordinations were not schismatic acts. But Lefebvre could not have had any thought in their mind except that they were starting their own church when they had been defying the Pope by their continued preparations of priestly candidates in defiance of Rome, followed by their defiance of Rome in ordaining Bishops to carry out their churchy cult anticipating his own death. If you ordain priests and bishops in explicit dire repeated written warnings from Rome, what other intention is there but to set up a separate church apart from Rome???
No, YFC, disobedience in itself is not a denial of the right to command. Or do you really consider that a kid raiding a candy jar despite his parent’s saying no really believes his parents have no authority? By your lame logic, you’d accuse someone of denouncing their parent’s authority if they broke the rule not to drive the car when the garage caught on fire and the kid thought to back the car out on the driveway.
You say I’m ‘finally’ getting teeth? Well, you’ve completely lost yours.
Or by choosing the lifestyle that you do, are you denying God’s authority and/or the Church’s authority to state that such a lifestyle is intrinsically disordered? In reality, I think YOU do. But not all acts that go against the wishes of a superior are a negation of their ‘right’ to rule.
Go back to school, professor, and learn some basics.
YFC, you are feeding the troll.
Please stop posting from those heretical websites.
YFC, read and learn:
“…The Chinese government established the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association, which rejects the authority of the Holy See and appoints its own bishops.” That is true schism.
“… If you ordain priests and bishops in explicit dire repeated written warnings from Rome, what other intention is there but to set up a separate church apart from Rome???” (And the ‘dire’ warning prior to consecrating the 4 bishops included no use of the world schism, YFC. Read for understanding. And the reason is to preserve the tradition you abhor which is why your bias statements hold no weight.)
That said, perhaps, the reasons given by Archbishop Lefebvre, at the time of consecration should be taken as motive. And again the Society proclaims:
“We reaffirm our faith in the Roman Catholic Church, the unique Church founded by Our Lord Jesus Christ, outside of which there is no salvation nor possibility to find the means leading to salvation; our faith in its monarchical constitution, desired by Our Lord Himself, by which the supreme power of government over the universal Church belongs only to the Pope, Vicar of Christ on earth…”
How many of those who declare the Society “schismatic” would put their names to that Declaration?
I’ll bet the German Bishop’s Conference wouldn’t make such a proclamation. Or you who tends more toward individual ‘sees’, so that SACRILEGE can be facilitated more readily for those who prefer it.
Please stop calumniating those who are neither schismatic nor heretical, Anonymous. Stick to what the Church actually teaches instead of your own willfully uninformed opinion.
When people get into trouble about the ambiguities that are rife in Vat II, actually stating (see above, 3/2/15, 3:27pm YFC) that “..bishops are not subsidiaries of Rome. …they have power authentic to their office, not derived from a higher ecclesiastical authority” (Really? Independent of the pontiff?), they prove the entire ambiguous language of Lumen Gentium, esp. 25-28: bishops now can act autonomously. This is exactly what Card. Marx and the German Conference is saying they will now do: define their own moral doctrine. Don’t blame them: they cite V2 all the time as their authority. (And don’t hide behind the CCC: you don’t hear Marx or Kasper quoting THAT ever. The CCC is not the issue at all.)
If by the same token bishops are not subsidiaries of Rome and only need be nominally in union, it logically means they can act on their own. Like Marx and the German episcopate. Then the SSPX bishops and the CMRI bishops and the independent Catholic bishops are owed an apology: Vatican II authorizes them to act independently and they have their own powers. Right? Or now we are to come down on the side of strict authoritarian union? Which is it?
So, Arbp Lefebvre was right to take autonomous action, right? Even the N.O. Ducks say so.
Your are talking nonsense.
More and more as I reflect on the resolute refusal to acknowledge the ambiguity of Vatican II and its effects now for 5 decades on the Catholic Church, I conclude this:
Those who are accusing others of the canard that “V2 is invalid” and that “recent popes may be invalid”, do so because they are afraid that they may be so; —but they are afraid to honestly face it. That is now the only possible explanation I can conclude.
They clearly know something is deeply wrong in the Church: better to find some one to push the blame on (traditionals; sedes-vacaaahn-tists; Ann Malley). Conscience is a funny thing.
No, Mr. Phoenix, “blame” goes to the individuals who mis-interpret Vatican II, whether they be liberals or trads or Protestants or whoever. Either you know and assent to the Catholic Faith or you don’t.
No one will tell us what they find ambiguous.
Most of the questions (if there were any) were settled with the publication of the CCC. What is the problem that you have with Vatican II? Have you looked in the CCC for clarification? Are you seeking error by going on websites or reading material by authors who are not faithful to the Church?
What difference would it make to you if there were “ambiguities” in documents that very few people have even read? It makes a big difference to people who are being exploited by former Catholics who have left the Church and use Vatican II as an excuse for their mortal sin.
During the Year of Faith, when we were supposed to be reading the Vatican II documents, I don’t remember anybody addressing an issue of ambiguity or even pointing one out.
Please if you are going to talk about Vatican II documents, please be specific about what you have an issue with. These are hundreds of pages in the documents.
…I provided you with a video that explained one aspect of the disconnect, Anonymous, but you couldn’t grasp what it was saying and subsequently rejected the valid observation therein.
That said, your continued defense of all of VII, despite what even Cardinals and Bishops in full communion are saying with regard to it’s lack of clarity, is rather a testament to you not wanting to know the reality of the problems.
So ‘no’ the blame does not go on the individual when a document is ambiguous. In the real world, in which we are, such documents are tossed out and rewritten. Otherwise they mean nothing as they cannot enforced. And that, Anonymous, is what is being discussed whether you understand it, like it, want to pretend the matter doesn’t exist, etc.
No, you referred people to a stupid video of some guy who was purposely manipulating sentences in a Vatican II document to mislead people into thinking that Vatican II said something contrary to the Faith!!!!!!!!
He ain’t someone to refer people to because you will go to hell for scandal.
Faithful Catholics don’t do wicked things like this.
You are not innocent in this. You are intentionally messing with people’s heads on this website.
You have been asked over and over what ambiguities are bothering you. You never answer. It is really obvious that you have no clue what is in Vatican II.
You also referred us to a schismatic webpage with complaints about Vatican II and it was picked apart and shown to be a bunch of lies and distortions. You didn’t know enough about the Catholic Faith to even catch the easy ones. You have made so many errors in your posts it is obvious that you are learning as you go-by reading posts on CCD.
Read the Catechism. Read the Bible. Stop your sinful undermining of the Catholic Church. You are causing others to go astray.
There are people here who are very vulnerable to your errors and you are responsible for them falling into error. Save you soul and stop creating scandal.
…if you don’t want to acknowledge the endemic problems that are giving leeway to those who choose to not read VII in light of Tradition then you are enabling the destruction, Anonymous. And there was no picking apart of anything, no logical argumentation or any intellectual perusal of reality on your part. Rather you and your Anonymous cohorts and those who are blind defenders of ambiguity are foolishly expecting problems to go away without looking to the source. That is your choice. But your insistent blindness helps no one and misleads many who would otherwise be equipped to fight back.
Stop enabling scandal, Anonymous, and promoting remaining clueless as a virtue. The scandals are already created. It’s root sourcing the cause that is being done here.
We are not defending the Vatican II documents. We are defending the Church and the Faith from errors, both obvious and insidious
People in grave sin always want to drag others to hell with them.
This anonymous is making good comments.
…then direct your rancor at those hierarchs attempting to do precisely what you say by making use of the ‘spirit’ of the council facilitated by ambiguous language and novelties.
Anonymous and Abeca:
Defending the Church would be to stop defending the documents which have allowed for those intentionally attempting to distance Church practice from Church teaching.
You can defend all you’d like, but if you keep supplying the enemy ammunition (that is the ambiguity to introduce novelty) or refuse to acknowledge the never ending ammo supply (again, the compromise formulas within VII) you will forever be fighting the same dragon and wondering why he will never die, but only grows bigger and ever more confusing.
Ahhh, the Anonymous N.O. Duck descent into bitter diatribes, acccusations, and quack-quack – Ann-Malley attack. I think we are done here..
Ahhh, the now-typical Anonymous N.O. Duck descent into bitter diatribes, accusations, and the mandatory quack-quack – Ann-Malley attack. I think we are done here..
From CatholicCulture.org
It does not really matter what the SSPX sees itself as doing. The simple fact is that no bishop (let alone an illicitly ordained bishop) can send priests into another bishop’s diocese to administer the sacraments without those priests receiving faculties from the local ordinary. To do so is an assault on the proper authority of the local ordinary, who receives his jurisdiction from the successor of Peter. It is hardly surprising that Catholic bishops should be sensitive on this point. In fact, they are correct to be more sensitive to this issue than to almost any other. After all, for a Catholic to utilize the ministry of SSPX priests is, however muddled the intention, an escape from the jurisdiction of his real bishop and, by extension, of the Catholic Church itself.
Everything done by the SSPX is illicit, and at least some of the sacraments they administer are invalid. Because no SSPX bishop or priest has any canonical assignment within the Church, every one of them lacks jurisdictional faculties for those sacraments which require a judgment of the Church. This is true, for example, of both Penance and Matrimony. The absolution of an SSPX priest in the Sacrament of Penance is invalid in and of itself (though the Church may supply what is lacking in an otherwise innocent confession). Marriages witnessed by SSPX priests are also invalid. These are serious consequences, against which any bishop ought to at least warn the members of his flock.
…and yet (though the Church may supply what is lacking in an otherwise innocent confession) does, in fact, apply, much to the dismay of Anonymous. As for marriages and their validity, you may want to check in with what the practice is for recognizing such marriages. Also, you may want to look into the letters which are regularly received whenever a Society priest receives the confession of one in a state of excommunication in which the Pope must be consulted. The Vatican responds, in fact, that the Society priest’s absolution of said penitents are both valid and licit and that penances imposed are precisely what they should be.
So while you proclaim with vigor, the Church Herself does not, Anonymous. That’s the problem.
Good on CatholicCulture for not citing canonical argumentation in its entirety. That seems to be the way of it.
God bless.
Sadly, I think a lot of perpetrators and defenders of V2 are not going to find themselves where they expected after their judgment day. They can’t deceive God! And if they once knew the true faith, but drag it down and promote V2 Protestantism instead, woe to them for their punishment will be harder.
I would very much believe that although he made some mistakes like first going along with V2 liberals, but later turned against them, he is in a much better place than those who flushed so many V2 souls down the sewer.