There’s been a lot of discussion on whether it is better to have male altar servers or to allow both girls and boys to serve at the altar.
Most of the discussion ends up being people offering their opinions
“I think it helps girls discern religious life”
“I think it fosters vocations to the priesthood”
“I think boys are more likely to serve if girls don’t serve”
“I think boys are just as likely to serve whether or not girls are allowed to”
and the opinions continue to pass each other like missiles mid flight
I like statistics, so I solicited some. I’d love to have more, so if you know of a parish, drop their stats in as a comment, and I’ll add them.
I asked for parishes that made the switch to all male altar servers what their server numbers were like before the switch and what the number of servers was about a year after the switch.
That’s hard to argue with. The average parish surveyed, when switching from co-ed servers to male-only saw their server numbers grow 450%
UPDATE:
As this has spread a bit across the internet, the statisticians have come out of the woodwork. I was a math major, and so let me say, first of all, that I understand that correlation does not imply causality. I had it beat into my brain in high school and college. Correlation does not imply causality, but it certainly can SUGGEST causality, and 450% change is certainly GIGANTIC change.
Secondly, some of the statistical hounds have pointed out that “the sample size is too small.”
a) I never said this was scientific
b) one person has noted that I would need 200 parishes and another noted I would need at least 32 parishes. I agree it would be great to get more parishes, but I’m not sure 32 parishes in the USA have had co-ed servers and have since switched back to only male servers.
c) If you want a “statistically relevant” study, feel free to go conduct one yourself. I don’t have time. My limited research has told me all I needed. If you want more, feel free to go get more. I’m busy pastoring a parish.
d) You may also want to ask yourself why you are attacking the above graphic – is it because you have a concern that every piece of data, even one not claiming to be “scientific” actually meat scientific standards…or do you struggle with the data presented because it upsets your personally held belief on the matter?
Thirdly, one commenter has put it beautifully – “I don’t understand why one side in this thread is expected to justify and extend the data it provides while the other gets to trot out unverifiable claims about unsampled groups and their “feelings”.”
– I couldn’t agree more! People are falling into the exact pattern that I described in my original post, even in the face of the stats above.
Look through the comments on this thread, and all you see from the “other side” is people throwing out their own theories and beliefs. It is amazing how quickly we dismiss statistics when they upset our beliefs on a subject.
People are saying things like “Have you thought of following these young men and women through adulthood to see if there is correlation of their staying in the Church, or even having their children baptized in the Church. You may ask the parents, especially the mothers, whether they intend to stay in Church.”
and “An interesting list, for sure. I’d be curious to see other statistics about those parishes, namely their population size, the number of children, and compare those fields to the before & after numbers. I’m also curious if there were any where the numbers dropped.”
and “there is no qualitative data about how this affected young girls’ feelings towards themselves or the Church.”
and “maybe it is the lack of strong role models that cause boys not to want to altar serve. Maybe it is indeed that boys psychologically do not tolerate a mixed crowd when it comes to altar serving. Perhaps there are other reasons such as world view differences that lead to the actual cause being obscured.”
and “I can’t help but feel that at altar serving age, I would have felt very turned off by a switch such as this. I am curious to know what the females in this age group at these parishes feel about not being allowed to serve.”
Here’s my response – heck, it could be that each of these parishes had interstellar star dust sprinkled on them by aliens and that is why the numbers grew. I don’t know the cause, and people can throw out their theories all day long.
I would also to say to such comments: feel FREE to go and study these theories with research of your own. I will not be doing any such research, but would love to hear about it if you research your personal theories as to why the numbers are what they are….
To read entire posting, click here.
Thank you for raising this topic! I have three daughters of altar serving age and I have prayed about this a lo, and discussed with may Pastor. My solution is as follows: I have my daughters altar serve at weekday morning mass only. The youngest male in the church is 48 years old (me). I doubt the retired men are contemplating altar serving or the priesthood, and are scandalized. My daughters do not altar serve on Sundays when young boys are present.
Me boys will not serve with girls, so they only serve TLM, and they love it.
We just told our girls they couldn’t serve as altar boys——they all grew up without therapy and leading productive lives. We do have a lot of discussions on our Church and roles as women and men.
Thanks for keepin it real linnea! I wonder where it happened, that the society as a whole, lost track of the rather obvious differences between the genders. They are not bad differences, just the way it is, no need to muck it up.
How about separate altar server groups. a boys’ group and a girls’ group?
Some Sundays the girls group are tapped for service, some Sundays the boys group.
I understand the anthropological principle, young males need to find their identity by distinguishing themselves from human females, rather pathetic, but so it is.
Females were never meant to be on GODS HOLY ALTAR… Jesus did not even allow HIS MOTHER in the UPPER ROOM !! Males are for the HOLY ALTAR that is what JESUS and GOD the Father instituted , who are we to change it ??
Of course His Mother was in the upper room.
No, she wasn’t. Mary was not present at the Last Supper. The Upper Room is considered to be the room where the Pentecost occurred, and of course, Mary was there.
How do you know if the Mother of god was at the Last Supper? By the commandment of honor thy Father and Mother she would have been there as we know she was in Jerusalem during the Passion and Death of our Lord. You might read City of God and see what it says about the Last Supper.
God Bless.
I agree with you. Feel alter boys should serve.Thank you
There is no Biblical account of the Last Supper that mentions the presence of the Blessed Mother. The mystic Ven. Mary of Agreda says that St. Gabriel administered a piece of the consecrated bread to Mary, who was, as is generally recorded, in the company of Mary Clopas (Alpheus) her cousin and other holy women who would minister to Jesus and his apostles in their itinerent efforts to spread the Good News. Additionally, the majority of Sacred Tradition does not place Mary at the Last Supper. In the Didache and Patristic writings there has never surfaced a claim of Mary being seated with Jesus and His apostles at the Last Supper.
The Jewish people separated the men from the women in the Temple. There was the court of the women, so the Lord must have kept Jewish custom and had the women in a separate section of the house for the Lord Supper. Even the early Christians separated the men from the women in their churches, probably with the men on one side of the aisle and the women on the other, just as the Orthodox Jews still do today. All books and pamphlets for the Rosary show the Lord’s mother in the Upper Room, though, on Pentecost, probably since the Lord wanted her to receive the Holy Spirit right along with the Apostles as she is Queen of the Apostles and Angels.
Who CARES what you feel? Women are a part of the people of God and deserve to serve at the altar of Our Lord!
AMEN!
@Anne T: You are right on as to what Ven. Mary of Agreda said as to the seating of Mary and the holy women at the Last Supper. She put them in an adjoining but separate room to the upper room. As to Mary being in the upper room at Pentecost—scripture puts her there. But, as she became the Spouse of the Holy Spirit at the moment of the Incarnation–(predestined as that maybe from the moment of her own conception)–at certainly the “overshadowing” of the Holy Ghost, as St. Gabriel prophesied, there are exegetes that say that the Holy Spirit did not need to come to her a second time at Pentecost, as she was already the Mother of the Church; being given to us at Calvary by her Divine Son. But, indeed
He did come to the Apostles for the first time at Pentecost.
agree
Someday, when we are all standing in front of the judgement seat and Justice himself, you will wish you hadn’t said those hateful words. Women aren’t inherently inferior in any way, shape, or form.
As it was, I was not in favor of altar girls at all, but I think this patriarchal conversation has changed my point of view.
Sorry, Kithri, just as the Lord Jesus instituted the rules for priests in the Old Testament as the second person of the Holy Trinity, He instituted the rules for the priesthood in the New Testament. His Holy Mother was in the Upper Room among the Apostles, but she was not at the Last Supper nor there on Holy Thursday when he ordained and instituted the priesthood. We are to follow the Apostles (the Pope and those Cardinals, bishops and priests faithful to him) in everything pertaining to faith and morals except in sin. Had the Lord chosen to ordain women, he certainly could have done so. Bashing your local priest because he chooses not to have altar girls is not a good thing to do.
I wholeheartedly agree:
“Jesus NEVER intended women to be priests NOR girls to be altar servers.’
It is wonderful to note that there are parishes reverting to only male servers. We women can serve God in numerous other ways, as did His Mother.
@Carmen: Mary is not named as an Apostle, nor did she in any way act as one. However, she is the first Christian, the first Apostle, the Mother of the Church. In such a manner was God’s glory for her hidden on this earth. Now her glories are known.
Annonymous,
While I certainly agree that there should only be Altar Boys, where did you get it that He didn’t even allow His Mother in the upper room. She was present in the Upper Room when Our Lord came to His Apostles and She was present when Our Lord sent the Holy Ghost. Have you read Anna Catherine Emmerich or The City of God. By the Grace of God, I have been in the Upper Room, have you?
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
No. that is not good.
I have found that there are many pathetic qualities attached to our flawed human natures on both sides of the gender fence. Males do not have a corner on that market.
Altar servers, up until recently, were always male, and that is why they were called ‘altar boys’. The infiltration of the Church by the feminist liberals, who want female priests, also want altar girls. Thirty years ago, when changes took place with the liturgy, lectors and extra-ordinary ministers were only supposed to be male. The women crept in, and the men no longer wished to serve as lectors or extra-ordinary ministers. with the bossy women running everything .The same thing happened when girls became servers: the boys quit. Since being a lector or an acolyte is(was) as step to the priesthood, it is only logical than women must be excluded from these time honored duties. Not only does it give females the erroneous notion that they can possibly become priests, it also discourages boys from serving at Mass, which is an actual grace that often times gives the men a vocation to the priesthood of Jesus Christ. The more the women try to take over a parish, the more it will empty out and wither away because God’s will is not being followed. We all have jobs and duties to perform, just as the choirs of angels do, but unlike them, so many of us are jealous and want to be or do what we are not supposed to do. As a result, we have chaos in our midst, and the problem seems to grow each day with Mass attendance reaching new lows in North America and Europe where the problem of altar girls exists.
Amen Father!
Father, In complete agreement. I would not have served as a boy if girls were doing it. Isn’t it also a fact that some parishes were allowing altar girls before it was even permitted? That the permission somehow came later in a round-about way, after the abuse had already begun? A sort of slap in the face to parishes who were doing things correctly and had said no up to that point, wouldn’t you say?
I am always amazed how quickly things changed for the worse and how difficult it is to move back the other direction.
Actually Altar girls have never actually been approved, Pope John Paul II never signed the documents, but he DID NOT stand up to THEM when he got out of the hospital. In spite of his promise to Mother Theresa to never allow Altar girls, he did not stand against the wreckovators who had achieved their evil ends while he was flat on his back in the hospital, perhaps that is why Pope Benedict XIV decided not to stay in the active Pontificate, he knew what they had done when Pope John Paul II was in the hospital!
THEY used the change of one word in Canon Law to achieve their dissenting goals!
May God have mercy on America!
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Fr. Karl, surely you jest! Girl altar servers are not the cause of the decline in church attendance. If that were the case, only the Catholic church would be seeing these declines. Your logic is a bit tilted. One of the key causes of the decline in church attendance may simply be the venom you spill with comments like these. We know that women cannot be ordained priests. But, that doesn’t mean that women have no other place to serve the church, in addition to washing the linens and cleaning the altar. Your comments above are some of the worse testimonies to discrimination I have heard in ages. You need to get a grip and come to the modern world. You are mixing up Tradition and traditionalism. By the way, less than ten percent of the seminarians started as altar servers.
Bobv, great comment. If this Fr Karl is a real priest then his comment, and yours, show why the Church has been in major trouble over the last 50 years. There is another religion that treats women as non-persons and the Church seems to be going in the same direction especially with the treatment of Nuns. I think it’s time that the old boys club change their way of thinking towards women.
Really Joseph I didn’t know the Church forced women to be dressed in a burka???? Your analogy is stupid like most liberal reasoning, Christ chose men to be priests if you don’t like run off the nearest failing protestant sect where there is no such thing a sin, and its all about being nice
If I had to wear a burka to church I”d become an Episcopalian!!
Joseph….The Church doesn’t treat women as ‘non-persons’…just the opposite we practically run the Parishes!…. However, I’m not suggesting that it was always like that. No, even secular society treated women badly (still do by promoting promincuity and abortion for them)…. But that does not mean that women/girls should be altar servers….
Look at the chart. This is unbelievable, the difference between before and after. Boys want to be with boys at that age. The are not interested in girls at all so therefore they will abandon serving if it incudes girls. And this way Priests can concentrate on bringing new Priests into the Church……As for the Nuns, read “Ungodly Rage’ by Donna Steichen. And of course, not all Nuns reflect this profile but many feminist Nuns do….
The Church has been in trouble for the last 50 years because it was taken over by Modernists whose sole intent was the destruction of the faith. The reason for altar girls is to discourage altar boys and thus discourage Vocations to the priesthood, which they are very happy to do without. Liberalism destroys everything it touches.
Joseph and Boby One,
Both of you would have to go along ways to even come close to the devotion to the Mother of God that Fr. Karl’s entire priesthood is a witness to, including the willingness to accept suffering at the hands of errant shepherds.
May God enlighten your minds and souls,
Kenneth M. Fisher
“By the way, less than ten percent of the seminarians started as altar servers” Another unsubstantiated statistic from Bob One, but being that you are a liberal you would spout something stupid like this. No Bob One you need to get a grip we have feminized Church as it is, I am so tired of seeing clipped haired tyrants running parishes, the less female presence the better and the fewer the liberals the more sanctity …
My wife has clipped hair. What’s wrong with that?
I guess it went over your head
Greg Smith, Canisius is so angry because he was abused in his younger years by his mother’s lesbian lover. I believe he is talking about women who cut their hair butch and do not feminize themselves in any way, with a little make up, jewelry, etc., and who wear mostly male clothing. He can correct me if what I say is wrong.
Thank you! Up until the good Father spoke, the comments were rational. His kind of priestly attitude will do NOTHING to improve the quality and quantity of altar servers. Many women are already not exactly enamored with the way the church views them and more mysogynistic attitudes on the part of priest certainly will not help.
Jim McCrea,
Your use of liberal shiboleths betrays your true purpose! ‘
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
If you know women cannot be priests, then why even have them serve as an altar server when the boys want to be altar boys without the girls and women hanging around the parish? What is wrong with the women cleaning and washing the altar linens? After all, Jesus laid on that linen, as the victim, and the women will get more credit in Heaven then they would trying to parade around on the altar, bumping into the priest, while trying to beat the priest to the Tabernacle. Or do the readings, without the strong voice of a male, a woman’s voice does not sound very much in authority, Why are there so many women that are employed, in the Catholic Dioceses, in the USA, as “Liturgists Specialist”? What an absolute joke! Shouldn’t the Priest be the Liturgist “Specialist”.? Didn’t he study long enough in the seminary to be the “Specialist” in the most important aspect of the Priest’s duties, saying the Sacrifice of the Mass ( the liturgy)?
Pushing the altar girs and pushing the “lIturgist Specialist”, and women “extraordinary” Eucharistic Ministers, is all a push for Protestantism , having women hanging around the Parishes is also a move for the “married priest’ movement. not The True Roman Catholic Church.
Intellectualone: Thank you for bringing up a recent innovation: The Liturgist Specialist. Our parish has only recently added a new member to their staff who introduced himself as our new “liturgist”. He is a young lad who appears barely old enough to have finished seminary. Why would a pastor together with a number of other priests who regularly celebrate masses need a “Liturgist”???? And let’s not even talk about a bevy of “Eucharistic minsters” that grace the altar every Sunday.
Genesis, God Created MAN (whole, and very complete with himself ) for Himself. After awhile, God in His Infinite Wisdom, created WOMAN for “the man” and for Himself, God.
St. Thomas Aquinas, woman is nothing more than a weak man. ( she was made from a man )
I know of NO Traditional parishes that employ so called liturgist!
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Traditional parishes aren’t Catholic, they are imitations of what someone believed the Church was like in prior times.
Thanks, Father for conducting the study and writing this. I have been worried about the lack of vocations and the possible correlation with the lack of male altar servers. I wish it were otherwise but the data is compelling. The data may lack statistical completeness but it supports what we have been worrying about. Of course, I think homosexually oriented priests might be better served by women altar servers as I have seen in several cases to reduce occasions for sin. But that concern might have to jettisoned to encourage more male altar servers with the hopes of encouraging more priestly vocations. However, the genie has been out of the bottle for some time so I cannot realistically contemplate going back to male only altar servers. For that to happen without creating signficant dissonance would almost be a miracle.
Ted,
BE READY FOR SUBSTANTIAL DISSONANCE!
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Amen, Father. And I’m a female!
Thank you Father Karl! Everything that you have written is very true. The truth often hurts but nevertheless, the truth is the truth. As Catholics we can surely see the turmoil within the Church and this turmoil is always caused by dis-order and disobedience. It is always very disappointing to see altar girls for the very truthful reasons that you explained. Many do not know better. They have not been taught. The little survey also speaks volumes of support for what you wrote. That was also an excellent teaching post Father. God was Perfectly Wise and discriminating in assigning His purposeful design in relegating the roles of the different choirs of angels. The same with Adam and Eve. Eve tempted Adam to blur the lines of authority roles too and the rest is bible history. Mary, the new Eve is the role model for women. God Perfectly orders all things. Due to Original Sin, there is now a great disorder of God’s intended order. God discriminatingly designed men. Men will never get pregnant because they are not women and women can never be priests because Jesus was a man. There is no shortage of roles to serve God as a man or as a women. There is only a great shortage of humility.
I never thought that altar boys would be intimidated by girls….
I agree heartily with Fr Karl. I am a mom of a large family mostly grown now. I encouraged my boys to serve and gently explained to my girls why it was not a good idea for them to serve on the altar. God bless our Fathers. How difficult this situation has been for them. We so need priests.
I read a great book called, “The Last Roman Catholic” written by James W. Demers, published I think in 1990. The visuals of how our Churches used to look and sound is inspiring . The cause and effect of the parish community modernizing it is right on the spot. I admit I laughed out loud with some of the descriptions. I found it on Amazon for a reasonable price.Unfortunately Mr. Demers died in 2008 ,I think , so he was able to see how sad it had become.
I just have to add that I heard the comedian Jimmy Fallon, of all people, talk in a radio interview about how moved he was as a kid to serve at the altar–how he loved the bells and incense, the dramatic environment of liturgy, the solemn and awesome nature of it. He added that when he decided to go back to Mass, after a loooong hiatus, he was almost repulsed by the hand-holding, electric-guitar sounding nature of the Mass. The sense of liturgy and holiness was missing for him. And, so, he said, he never went back.
I have no doubt that that is probably the least of factors in his falling away, but it is impressive that the atmosphere is what he cherished and recognized as proper.
great comment
Well said Father.
You are so right. We have a friend who was on the church council. A very good devout father and husband. A woman ran against him for a position and won. Her statement was she should have position because she’s a woman. Needless to say he quit and never got involved a again. Once the (bossy) women took over the men left. Look around at any mass women out number men about 6 to 1. We have to bring men back .
Boys and Men (if there are not enough boys) should go to their Parish Rectory and volunteer to become Altar Servers. They will train you.
Men and Fathers should set the example for boys. Do not be lazy.
Thank You Beth and I agree. Men, get off your B hinds and get involved with the Faith. It’s our duty and obligation so get off the couch, pull your hand out of the Doritto Bag and represent the Catholic Faith.
It is possible that the increase is to due to multiple factors including that the parish made a concerted effort to recruit more altar servers to replace the female servers. It would be interesting to study Mass attendance after the policy is announced: increase or decrease? I suspect some people might leave the parish because they disagree with such a policy.
Quite frankly, I prefer men at the altar, all the way around, including being lectors. I am old fashioned. Helping my family and doing things for the church in the background is more to my liking. Making altar clothes and decorating the altars is a lovely job for a woman who wants to serve the Lord. Doing things behind the scenes when one really wants to do them is far less stressful and more rewarding for some of us. That way one does it because one wants to do so, not because one has to to fill someone’s politically correct quota. I would rather be queen of my household than have another man or woman tell me what to do. I had enough of that before I retired.
First, I’m agains girls being alter servers. Its always been a path to get boys interested in the priesthood. Second, I’m a consecrated virgin who is also a retired firefighter. Now with that said, I’m not the decorator type or sew or cook. But I can give my time doing other things like fixing stuff around the parish. Think outside traditional “women’s work” . Women can do mowing and maintenance, also can plant flowers, take care of the flower bed, run errons. Men can plan fund raising, like golf ternament. Ok, now the girls can make up a choir and still be “involved” with the mass.
One shrine in our area had an excellent female gardener. She kept the roses beautifully.
Why wouldn’t you have women on the golf tourney committee? Why aren’t women on the fund raising committee? They manage the money in most households. Why can’t women serve on the parish pastoral council and the finance council? Why can’t women be lectors? Most of the ones I know are able to read rather well. Please, don’t mix up Tradition and traditionalism, which is the love of things the way they use to be. Some parishes have family serving teams which I think is a great idea. Generally the father carries in the cross, the mother the incense, and the sons or daughters the candles. They all serve at the Mass, placing the altar clothes on the table, bringing the vessels to the altar, etc., etc. Very nice approach I think.
Bob One, there is nothing wrong with a couple or family bringing up the wine and the bread for the priest to consecrate, but give me a man at the lectern, at least most of the time, please, whether priest or deacon. One church had women doing the men’s parts on Passion Sunday and I cringed. I wanted to shout, “Please get some man to read the men’s parts. The Roman soldiers and the Apostles were not “ladies”. I am sick of all the unisex — garbage to be polite. Woman can be doctors, governors, etc. if they are pro life and look like women, but there needs to be a man at the altar doing men’s parts. Try having women play the parts of John F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King or Mohammad and see how far you get.
If girls would be allowed to be altar servers, they may have a chance to teach the altar boy what means to be a “consecrated virgin” – you mentioned above about this. I think it is a very good point, as so many boys/young men need a clear understanding of this issue.
Jenny, Putting them together to serve is a terrible way of teaching the boys about consecrated virgins! I don’t know one altar girl who is thinking about being a consecrated virgin when she signs up to serve, much less “show the boys” about it. At this age, no one is “a consecrated virgin” They are virgins by virtue of their state in life–childhood!
If you mean that thekids would learn to get along like brother and sister, well, ok, but there are lots of opportunities other than the altar to do that.
I agree that boys naturally want to do things with other boys, especially things that are modeled by noble men. Hence, they are drawn to serve at the altar together. If the Church deems a male priesthood to be what God intended, then so we should have male altar severs. Doesn’t it make more sense to do it that way??
“…now girls can make up a choir…” was it forbidden in the past for girls to make up a choir ?
Yes, girls and women can be in a choir if they have the voices for it.
But the choirs used to be in the back of the church, and still are in many traditional churches, or Catholic churches of other rites besides Latin. I think that was better because it was done for God not applause.
Rather than whine about “liberals” and “altar girls”, let’s break this down analytically.
1.) The Latin Rite of the Church allow both males and females to serve at the altar of sacrifice.
2.) Except in extraordinary circumstances (convents, all-female retreats, female prisons, etc.) it’s pure bunkum to suggest “there aren’t even males to serve.” Tiny Eastern Catholic and Orthodox parishes across the world where females are precluded from serving prove this.
3.) Article #47 of Redemptionis Sacramentum states:
“It is altogether laudable to maintain the noble custom by which boys or youths, customarily termed servers, provide service of the altar after the manner of acolytes, and receive catechesis regarding their function in accordance with their power of comprehension. Nor should it be forgotten that a great number of sacred ministers over the course of the centuries have come from among boys such as these. Associations for them, including also the participation and assistance of their parents, should be established or promoted, and in such a way greater pastoral care will be provided for the ministers. Whenever such associations are international in nature, it pertains to the competence of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments to establish them or to approve and revise their statutes. Girls or women may also be admitted to this service of the altar, at the discretion of the diocesan Bishop and in observance of the established norms.”
CONCLUSION: Cease with the corrosive insults and support (and I meant truly support) an all-male altar server corps.
SUGGESTION: In addition to all-male altar server corps, create all-female sacristan crops.
And they can bake cookies and cakes for the boys, too. And clean up after them.
Why not, and slap their hands if they take too many cookies.
It reminds of the time the young altar boy for a Traditional Mass wanted to be a Knight in Shining Armor. He pushed the pedestrian button so I could walk across the street — with his feet. I of course told him to be careful, but he had me laughing.
as they should……
I don’t understand how your “Conclusion” follows from the analytic look you provided. If anything, you showed that an all-male altar server corps is not indicated and has nothing whatsoever to do with approved procedures. On the other hand you don’t provide a single ounce of analysis that supports a reason FOR an all male corps.
Better analysis would be to correct the apparent mis-impression that being an acolyte is somehow a mini-ordination. This is theologically unsupportable and should never be used as an argument to exclude girls and women from altar service.
Jim M stupid argument! It has nothing to do with your stereotype! You are part of the problem with your stereo typing, just because you don’t understand the substance and depth!
Another Anon, Extraordinary Ministers (called Eucharistic Ministers by some) are supposed to be EXTRAORDINARY ministers, not ordinary ones, but some are using them as ordinary ministers our of political correctness. The ordinary ministers according to the liturgical documents are priests and deacons. In some Catholic churches only the priests and deacons do the readings. They have no lectors. I did the readings a few times at one church and did them well, but stopped as that particular church was making a fuss about having an equal amount of men and women which is just politically correct nonsense. Lectors in many or most cases are not even needed as in some of the post Vatican II Masses the priests and deacons do all the readings, and the priests do all the readings in the Extraordinary Mass, which is what the Vatican approved Traditional Latin Mass is now called. The priests do all the reading in the Vatican approved Anglican-Use Masses, too, and I think also in the Byzantine Catholic Masses. Vatican II did not say that a priest had to have any women serving at the altar if they did not want to do so. Those are the type of Masses I prefer, so attend I such Masses whenever I can.
Anne T.: By canon law, the lectors are not to be priests or higher. Except for the Gospel, the readings and psalms are to be done by the laity and by those in minor orders (few of which exist). The Gospel is to be proclaimed by the ordained clergy (Priests or when present the Decaon). The notion that priests ought to do the old testament readings and epistle is nothing more than clericalism. And no – the Ordinary Minister of the Eucharist is not the deacon…it is the Priest. Where did you get your notion of who should do what at Mass? Maybe you need a bit more education?
From priests at a shrine under the control of the Vatican for one thing. And where did you get your idea that two men can marry? Certainly not from the Bible, the Catholic catechisms or other Church documents, nor the Pope.
Your Fellow Catholic, are you saying canon law forbids priests from doing the readings?
I agree with Father Karl. The whole novelty of altar girls was brought about by feminists who will stop at nothing to have women priests. How are young men going to be encouraged for a priestly vocation when they see girls serving at the altar and thus they feel it is for girls? And like Communion in the hand, too many have bought into the falsehood altar girls was something espoused by Vatican II. Look at the traditional orders. Altar boys results in more priestly vocations. We don’t need girls trying to be boys, we need to teach young boys to be strong faithful men. Sadly, society has frowned on the notion of a strong man and instead we have a whole generation of feminized girly-men. Again, restore the traditions of the Catholic Church, namely the TLM, and we will see glorious things.
… let’s try another test for boys/men to see if vocations for priesthood goes up:
pre-confession to a woman , so, the man presents his list of sins to a woman, prior to going to confession…..
Sound like some women have a “father”, “daddy”, “husband”, or “male”
problem.
Yes, I agree with you,; with 1 in 5 children growing up without a father, yes, I think “fathers/ daddys/ males/husbands” have a problem.
Maybe a good homily would help them to understand what fatherhood means, and what it takes to be an altar boy too…..
I would not go to confession to any woman or man, save that the man was consecrated a priest in the Roman Catholic Rite.
tom collick,
I hope you really meant to write: “save that the man was consecrated a priest in one of the member churches of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church Rites”. If not, you are limiting yourself to some very beautiful CATHOLIC experiences!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
jenny,
Why so willingly show your complete ignorance of Theology?
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Why not just ask a bunch of 10 year old boys, “do you like doing things that girls do ?” and “do you like doing things with girls?” Girl altar boys (and adult altar boys) actually steal spots from all the boys who should be thinking about the priesthood and service at the altar. I want a priest at the side of my deathbed. St. Joseph pray for us.
NO WOMEN OR GIRLS ARE TO SERVE ONLY MEN !!
Our Parish has only boys serving for the Mass. But we have a group of girls in a guild, ( Guild of Saint Gianna), that processes to the Blessed Mother’s shrine (located at a side alter), after each Mass to lead the faithful in prayers of thanksgiving. I think that is a perfect solution
forgive the typo of alter, I mean altar.
It sounds like the wonderful May Day ritual where all the lovely young ladies get together to crown the Blessed Virgin.
Father,
Satan and his minions will never allows mere facts to get in the way of his lies.
I am coming from the perspective of a clergy person in an independent jurisdiction connected with the Anglican tradition. Our focus is on Christian recovery from a Convergence point of view. Our members are in recovery from abuse, addiction and trauma, as am I. The children who have come through the church over the past 21 years have had to learn how to be decent human beings in homes that were burdened by sexual and substance abuse. ALL of them wanted to serve at the altar with me. ALL of them were allowed to do so. We simply had them take turns. ALL of them expressed interest over the years of becoming ordained or at least serving in church leadership. None of them were turned off of doing so because of altar girls or even because their pastor was female. In fact, boys and girls both boasted about having a “cool pastor. Yeah, she’s a girl.”
(Funny to hear that since I am approaching 60 years old!)
Interestingly enough our church distinguishes male from female in what we wear at the altar. Our robes come from the Middle East. Women wear the full abaya if they are serving and our heads are covered. Men wear dishdashas and kufis. On feast days I wear a tailored robe from the African traditions as do the men. We make the sexual distinctions because we think men should look like men and women should look like women.
I wonder if the boys would feel less self conscious about serving with girls is this distinction was made.
..wow, I like how you envisioned the healing of both boys and girls, serving at the altar; truly a father …. God bless you and all the boys and girls you care for …
Trimelda,
Sorry, but you are part of the break from
Rome, and have no real authority. Sounds harsh, well sometimes the Truth has to be harsh.
May God have mercy on your confused soul,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Much of the Feminist drive for female priests comes from their belief that priests are more powerful than nuns. When we older parochial school students get together, whom do we talk about? It’s all about our nuns, and what a debt we owe them, and how difficult their work was, and how grateful we are for their discipline and our education. So this controversy about priests is much like arguing about which leg is more important – we need both, priests and nuns. It’s a mystery to us, why some nuns think priests get more noticed and have more power. Having women as nuns, and men as priests, is actually the best and most effective way to manage the heavy workload of the Church. We need vocations, yes! But nuns, as well as priests. And the work of nuns is extremely important.
Great post, Joe. Kind of like the two lungs of the Church, East and West — men and women. Both are needed, but each with his or her own duties and traditions.
The reason is obvious. No boy wants to serve with girls, who are usually taller if of similar age. Makes the boy look bad. If the girls are younger, all the worse. If the girls are older, way worse. Put yourself in the mind of a boy age 7-15. That those in charge can’t do this speaks volumes.
If a boy feels intimidated by a girl, just being together around the altar, can we imagine how intimidating is for a girl to go to confession to a man-priest?
The pre- Vll Mass was so beautiful! I remember it even though I was very young. Standing for communion and recieving in the hand is blasphemous, in my opinion. It is like standing in line at Mcdonalds! Of course altar boys make more sense for encouraging vocations to the priesthood. There are a lot of thing girls can and should be doing and they are not because they are serving. Decorating the alter with flowers and learning about the altar linens, keeping the Church clean. Are these not important too in God’s eyes?
jenny,
My two Catholic sisters never felt intimidated by having to go to an alter Cristos for Confession. Why do you feel that way? You really need a good orthodox Spiritual Advisor!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
I have wondered why the Novus Ordo even bothers with altar servers. They do nothing.
Altar boys at Mass in the Extraordinary Form are, well, extraordinary. What training! What discipline! What reverence! What intelligence to make the responses in Latin!
Larry: You are absolutely right! Both altar boys and altar girls are mere ornaments, living statues. The functions of the altar boys were sounding the bells during consecration and providing the responses (in Latin) during the opening prayers, which have been eliminated in their entirety with the introduction of the novus ordo confection that nowadays passes as a Catholic mass. The new mass has in reality eliminated the need and original purpose for altar boys.
Anton,
You forget the moving of the Sacred Books!
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
And holding the paten, so the Sacred Host does not drop to the floor. A most important job that should be brought back.
If needed.
Larry,
YOU HIT THE NAIL RIGHT ON THE HEAD!
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
“Father Karl”: Bravo!! The concept of “altar girls” is loony, except to feminist extremists. All the “wider roles for women” crowd only want one thing — women priests. The fact of altar girls, lay women this and that, will all be used to create a “record” of “exemplary service” to show (no, demand) that women can (no, must) be priests. Then, as our Episcopalian Fallen Brothers have shown us, the girls at the altar will increasingly become the lesbians at the altar, all of which will then be demanding the end to a wide variety of Catholic teachings on sexual issues, sin and salvation, and the like. The Episcopalian Church is simply nutty, and the silly dress-up day for its “liturgies” is laughable. Does the Catholic Church want to become like this? Many bishops and clergy seem to yearn to be like this. Of course, the large numbers of homosexuals in the Catholic Church can be seen as the most substantial driver of this movement; along with relics of the 1960’s (and their students). When do everyday Catholics, that want none of this, or of the N.O. and all the dumbed-down cathecism now being taught, get our say? There should never have been altar girls. The practice to permit them should be withdrawn. Such action will be a teaching moment to Catholics, and particularly to women: each gender has its own gifts and expectations from God; and they are not the same, and must not be made to be the same. Just think of how the manufactured anger of young women could be altered by having them turn their light inward: so this is how the Lord wants me to be! Wow!! Wives, Mothers (of larger families), Faithful carriers of Tradition in the Family; too bad so very few Catholic clergy stand up for this principle.
oh Good God!
The concept of “altar girls” is dysfunctional and I truly believe it is giving out the wrong message to women. If we love our sisters, daughters, etc….then we should celebrate them in the way our Lord has blessed us with….not by teasing them and saying “OK” have it your way by allowing them to become the new alter boys…..if women respond in humility as our blessed Virgin Mary has and does by her great example…then humility would mean that we would understand our special gifts and roles that our heavenly Abba Father has given us.
It is when our hearts are rotten with pride (maybe even envy or jealousy that we want to take on the special roles of boys, men) that we have to make excuses as to why girls should be alter servers. I have an entirely different view because I know how much our Lord loves me. He loves woman so much that I find beauty in all that holds tradition in His holy Mass from ages to ages….and that would mean that our Lord encourages us to be more humble and meek and to understand the beauty of each role and especially the role of the alter boys…..I honor God this way.
He is so precious to me, I trust in Him and understand but can’t explain it, the Holy Ghost just placed it my heart, the more He wants us to grow in humility, the more we grow in meek of heart. There have been countless of women saints and none of them have meddled and said I need to be an alter server….None! They were saints and understood better, it was not something that played in their thoughts. Not unless the devil was tempting them! God help us! We women are often tempted and meddle where we should not! That is the big problem! I have to sometimes step back and pray for humility because the temptations are there.
Abeca,
I have had the privilege to know women who were once Protestant priests, who accepted Our Most Blessed Mother and are now good wives and family makers. I also know some who are not married and not at least yet religious, but they are now happy as daughters of Our Most Blessed Mother.
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
“……. Wives, Mothers (of larger families), Faithful carriers of Tradition in the Family…” that is what we all want, and yes, it is possible if fatherless is replaced by fatherhood…….
The presence of a new policy at seven churches does not a trend make. I was an altar boy back in the days of the Latin Mass and rininging the bell during Conscerartioni, etc. Now there are altar girls, too, but I don’t think that damages the experience for the altar boys, the priest, or the congregation. Women are more invoilved with Cataholic life and the Church, even at the Vatican. We’re not going back to a pre Vatican II world and we should all understand that. Altar girls seems innocuous on its face and doesn’t detract from the experience of the Mass.
Vatican II was not implemented correctly, so The Catholic Church in the United States should go back to Vatican II to find out what its purpose was for The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. First of all ,Vatican II never professed to have girl altar servers. John Paul II said there should not be girl altar servers. Yet, the United States, Cardinals and Bishops already had them in place before even asking the Holy Father whether is was permissable. Right there the Cardinals and the Bishops ,of the United States, were not in Union with the Holy Father , now Blessed John Paul II. Also, Holy Communion in the hand was not okayed by Vatican II. Some Cardinal or Bishop started this nonesense in Belgium, again not in Union with the Holy Father, now Blessed John Paul II. The Roman Catholic Church has suffered ever since. When the Bishops are not in Union with the Holy See and make-up their own rules (because they think it is political correct or they think they know better. who does that remind you of ? Judas of Iscariot? ) it is a disaster for the Roman Catholic Church, which is the Bride of Jesus Christ Himself. The Bishops that ordain homosexuals are also way out of line with the Magisterium, the Holy Fathers, Blessed John Paul II and Benedict XVI ,both were very clear on Condemning the ordination of homosexuals to the priesthood. As a matter of fact they even contemplated to nullify those ordinations. These unfaithful and stupid moves by these Cardinals and Bishops, to not be in-union with the Holy Fathers ,have taken a huge toll on the True Church, The One and Only Holy Catholic Apostolic Church and these Cardinals and Bishops will have to answer for them to Jesus Christ. They better start pray as we speak!
In the Old Testament the revelation of the kingdom is often made under the forms of symbols. In similar fashion the inner nature of the Church is now made known to us in various images. The Church is, accordingly, called ‘our mother’ and described as the spotless spouse of the spotless lamb. It is she whom Christ ‘loved and for whom he delivered himself up that he might sanctify her’. It is she whom he unites to himself by an unbreakable alliance, and whom he constantly ‘nourishes and cherishes’(Eph 5:25-29).
Vatican Council II, Lumen Gentium 6.
While the priest acts as Christ, offering up his life during Mass for his bride the Church, the altar server acts as an extension of the priest’s hands, an extension which must be male lest a same-sex image of Christ and His Church be given and seen.
Altar girls came to us in violation of Canon Law (230.1); having them serve at our altars of sacrifice is a serious deformation of Catholic worship.
Warren, the paragraph of Canon law you cite refers to the stable ministries of acolyte and lector, which are indeed restricted to men, as they were once considered minor orders. The two following paragraphs of Canon Law clearly permit all of the laity to participate as lectors and acolytes, just not as a stable, or permanent, ministry.
Warren,
Are you quoting the “Lumen Gentium” correctly? Did they actually give us a message by not using capital letters for the Divinity and the Mother of God?
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
In a prior posting, someone mentioned the “Paten” and stated if needed.
The Paten is always needed, even if just a symbol, symbols are witnesses to our respect and adoration of Our Lord present in the Most Blessed Sacrament!
That is exactly why the Vatican II boys had to eliminate such things.
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
To say that ‘female altar servers do not cause a decline in Mass attendance’ is wrong. I know of at least 30 families that have left their parish and drive quite a distance to attend a Tridentine Mass in an approved venue precisely because their daughters and sons dislike the ‘gender bending’ that altar girls memorializes in the average parish. We are a statistical reality.
Gosh, isn’t this one more example of discrimination against women/girls? After all we have no female football players in professional or college teams. One commercial that turns my stomach shows a female boxer! What??? The feminists and their ilk will never rest until we have female bishops and a female Pope. Of course they are all welcome to join a more “modern” church where girls can serve, become ministers or even priests. Either you accept the above chart as a good start in returning the Church in America to its roots, or you have an open-ended Faith/Church where everything and anything is possible. Protestant! This is the world’s way not Christ’s Way, Truth and Life. Some who have incorrectly interpreted Vatican II documents will stop at nothing to change everything sacred in our liturgy and music. Time to do an about-face!
And some of you wonder why I have posted statements on California Catholic Daily that girls get the message that the Catholic Church considers girls to be inferior to boys!
If I were to post some of the things you’ve said about females, such as bossy women (are there no bossy men?), relegating women to menial tasks, even not allowing girls to serve at Mass on Sunday and said, “uppity blacks,” or worse yet, “uppity n—–s,” or “No Negroes in the front of the church on Sundays, but I’m liberal, and let them serve on weekdays,” I wonder if all of you would still fail to understand why girls get inferiority complexes from such messages, when in fact I am convinced Jesus Christ values the souls of our dear and precious girl children as much as the souls of our dear and precious boy children. I would never say that the Catholic Church sends the same message to girls (and of course, boys), and obviously, to most of the posters on this site.
I can hear your backs getting up all over the world, but I speak the truth, and that is what will set us free. We shall overcome, some day.
That is just so pathetic, Maryanne. I’m sorry, but I find it ironic that you never or very rarely respond to the other women here or refer to us as sisters but you’re always going on about how women are discriminated against. I don’t agree with you at all…not one little bit. The last Mass I attended at my local church, several months ago had a woman lector, a woman cantor, a woman pianist, women ‘extraordinary ministers and two altar girls. Our pastor looked awash in femininity and I for one was so disturbed by it that I’ve not been back since (the cantor kept practicing while I was trying to prepare my heart for my first Sat. prayers before Mass which I also found really rude) You’ve got a real chip on your shoulder, girl…or are you one of those who takes exception to being called a girl, as well. One of the MAJOR reasons I left the protestant church was the complete takeover of the church and services by women…I’d like to spend a few hours explaining just what happens to tradition and hierarchy when women take over…it isn’t pretty. Anyway, I hadn’t wanted to get into this discussion as there are so many other issues that I’m getting burned out, but I had to at least comment on this. There’s something really freeing about not putting yourself first and there’s something that initially goes against the grain to take a back seat, especially when you know you could do something ‘so much better’ ;o) but once you see that life goes on and you’re not the center of the universe, you can begin to truly appreciate our Lord in a whole new light. Less me, more of Thee.
Dana – Thanks for the offer, I may consider it as I used to have a subscription, but necessary economies have since counseled greater frugality. Ahem.
As for the Twysted Syster Troll – You should know that in Radical Gender Feminist Dogma you and Our other Sisters in the Church already have a title: “Dupes of the Patriarchy”.
As Uber Misandrists in Academentia like Katty Mackinnon would say – You and the rest of the Women are so Oppressed by the Rape of the Patriarchy (particularly if your Children were conceived in Rape = Meaning Normal Heterosexual Intercourse – as opposed to a Properly PC Turkey Baster Creationist ceremony)…
– that due to your Oppression None of You are Capable of Consenting, to Anything involving a Male Pig Oppressor, including Chattel Slavery / ‘marriage’.
The Gaystapo power structure of the Abomination is to be made up of Only ‘Non-Male Oriented Womyn” (aka Dyke Misandrists) – who are Free of Pig Influences and thus the only ones Capable of making (And Enforcing) Decisions for All Womynkind.
Simple Tautological Feminism from Academentia, also known in the college course catalog as ‘Death to the Patriarchy-101″ –
Perhaps You should consult your own class notes, and then keep quiet wile the Twysted Systers ‘represent’.
Not!
Hip, hip, hurray for us darn daffy dupes. (Lots of laugh).
To be fair to Maryanne Leonard, I do think she mentioned before that she had been molested by a priest. Please correct me if I am wrong. Canisius and she might have more in common than they think — both possible having been abused by the opposite sex — a source of their anger.
Michael, I got a nice email from Church Mil.tv and it’s complicated but not impossible, but subscriptions have to be from one source. I don’t see any other volunteers so for now, we’ll put it on hold. I won’t forget. Maybe your fortunes will change for the better, too. ;o) Dana Dupe, along with AnneT Daffy Dupe.
Dana,
Beautifully written!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
The parish my wife and I attend with our children is Saint Peter’s in Omaha, Nebraska. When Father Damien Cook took over as pastor in 2004 there were a total of fourteen servers. Father switched to altar boys only and by 2008 the parish boasted sixty altar boys, and now in 2013 it’s more like eighty altar boys or more. If you’d like to see Father Cook speak about this and see his altar boys in acction you can view a one minute video clip from StoryTel Foundation’s new documentary about Saint Peter’s parish “Where Heaven Meets Earth, Restoring The Sacred at St. Peter Church” which has aired on EWTN four times since April 30, 2013. Here’s the link to the one minute clip: https://www.storytel.org/altar-boys
Do altar boys feel intimidated or tempted by altar girls ? If this is the case for their back off, how do they expect to hear confession from girls, once they become priests ?
Easy…they grow up.
Dont’ worry Jenny women are not becoming priests EVER
who knows……
Don,
If you are the Don Carney I know, when did you move to Omaha? You were wise to leave Tax-I-fornia!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Maryanne: Men and women have different roles in life. Difference implies neither superiority nor inferiority. The sad reality is that the concept of Altar Girls was a misguided attempt to confer equality to young girls that had never been there in the first place. As a previous correspondent so aptly put it: Altar Girls were a loony idea from the start, and a sop to the feminists, which some of us are now beginning to regret.
I agree. I got three hernias that had to be repaired from trying to do heavy work. We just ARE NOT constructed the same, no if’s, and’s or but’s about it.
Anne T: My mother who is 64 lifts heavy stuff at work. I tell her not to. I’m 38 and pretty buffed but if I need something heavy lifted, I have two big, strong delivery guys do it. I had a girlfriend who was a carpenter who couldn’t work any more because her back went out. She said it was from constantly lifting tools up and down ladders. I read that military women can sometimes do everything except “hump a pack” over long distances. You’re right. Our frames just aren’t built for some types of physical activity. Please be careful!
Wow a lesbian who actually acknowledges truth….
Maryanne, men and women are not equal in every respect. There are roles for men and there are roles for women, and they are not all the same.
Maryanne your comments are sad to me…..I am huge on standing up for women issues but this one, I have to disagree with you. Sorry….
Maryanne Leonard, have you ever heard of the Blessed Virgin Mary?
Do you think that the Church’s veneration of her causes boys to have inferiority complexes?
Your statement is silly.
Being an Altar “BOY” is preparation and potentially encouragement to the Priesthood.
Jesus, “Himself” choose 12 Men (who were not made perfect like Mary) to be His Apostles.
I disagree with what Maryanne said, but I am not going to trash her like some of you did. Surely you guys can do better than that.
Ski Ven I did not trash her(in case I came off that way)….I think that she is lovely but on this issue, I can’t agree with her. Please don’t throw many under the bus just because they disagreed and are speaking their mind……there is righteous anger you know. Her comments may have brought some of that out in some because of this topic….
I wasn’t talking about you Abeca, so chill. I said some of you. I am not throwing anyone under the bus. I am just saying that people don’t have to be nasty to others when they disagree with them. If I wanted to target a particular party for elimination, I would call that party out by name. I did not do that because I was more interested in expressing a general principle than going after a particular party. I have no interest in going after those who are defending Catholic teaching on this site. I also have no interest in us devouring each other. The Mark from PAs, YFCs, and JonJs would love to see us turn against each other. People should avoid saying things out of anger. An angry response can take a misunderstanding and turn it into a war. Since you brought up righteous anger, remember it works both ways. I was not trying to throw anyone under the bus. But now you say that I am. I could use righteous anger to justify tearing into you. If more of us here responded out of anger, the police and the judges will have more work for them to do.
P.S. Also, I was not saying that everyone has to agree with Maryanne, just in case anyone wants to twist my words to say otherwise.
Ski Ven have you ever been to the east coast? Or maybe you are from that area or not, who knows. But sometimes depending on their upbringing some people are more honest and I know that it may come off hard over posts, who knows. When I was visiting New York, wow I saw people talk so bluntly that I thought they were rude and it seemed like a fight was going to break out but another lady explained to me that it wasn’t that way at all. They are just talking. Wow….they are at least more down to earth in the parts I went through but different mannerisms. LOL, well anyhoo It is throwing them under the bus because they have valid concerns with her comments but anyhoo, I won’t argue with you, I suppose to you it came off that way. I don’t really see it that way. and we don’t want to go against each other but you just did when you pointed out what you thought was them being rude or something like that. Oh well no worries….and yes I am chilling…..I guess people over read emotions on these posts….I am chilling just fine…..
Yes, I think I was a little harsh, and I agree…we need to really be more thoughtful about one another’s feelings. Sorry Maryanne. But I still preserve the right to speak out against various and sundry ugly churches and sidewalks and 1970’s happy clappy hymns!
But Abeca, you just did argue with me. I am just saying you can disagree with someone without going over the top. I didn’t say that anyone’s concerns are not valid. So now it seems like calling for restraint when responding to someone is throwing many people under the bus. Wow. Has it occurred to you that a lack of restraint can easily result in someone else being thrown under the bus? Be careful not to be defending what you accuse someone else of doing. Even though you are in good will, one day you might be the one that a lot of the faithful here disagree with. I think you would appreciate it if they were charitable to you. It can happen to any of one us. I might be the next one for all I know.
Fair Ski Ven. : ) But I have had those moments too…especially on the cremation abuses we are facing but heck, I don’t care….I can defend my own but I never and don’t recall going against anything that the church has always been for since it’s infant years….as we all know that cremation has changed and now we see more abuses on it too….like people throwing ashes over the ocean, or like they store their ashes in necklaces etc etc….so ya.
I want to be fair to you too, Abeca. I am now starting to regret my comment. I seem to have caused a lot of confusion. Some people that I didn’t see do anything wrong seemed to think that I was talking about them. I did not intend to cause them any concern. I did not name the party because I appreciate many things that party said in support of Church teaching and did not want to go after that party by name. I was talking about unjustified name calling. The majority of you did not engage in unjustified name calling. I perceived there to be unjustified name calling because I saw a name that was just thrown out there without any justification. I now do realize that there could be a justification for using that name. At that time, the aforesaid justification was not apparent in the comments to this article. I did some digging elsewhere on this site and I was floored when I saw Maryanne Leonard canonizing a Priest, even before he died, who was opposing the teachings of the Catholic Church. I still think that the name that was applied to her was too strong, but I can see why someone would apply it to her. So to be fair to you dear Sister in Christ, I will admit that I was wrong.
Ski Ven I’m humbled by your response. God bless you….its OK. That is why God gives us the ability to clarify. I do appreciate what you said and appreciate you also for pointing things to me. I too will listen to you. : ) God bless you and I’m sorry too if I caused more commotion, I appreciate your faithfulness and good heart. : )
Altar Egos
The Altar Boy question is part of a larger issue within the Church, related to the infiltration by radical leftist Gaystapo Activists and their ilk. In far too many Diocese, Hostility to Masculinity is the norm, and enforced strictly.
I myself have been privileged to serve as a Lector in a number of Parishes, and considered as doing a very good job by many if not most…
– Excepting of course certain of the Twysted Systerhood of Radical Gender Feminist insiders; who having inculcated their Misandry (Hatred of Men & Boys, Masculinity and Normal Heterosexuality) throughout the infrastructure, are often vicious in defense of their lucrative Turf.
I have actually been told that my Lector Voice (I’m a good public speaker) is “Too Masculine” – and upsets some of the ‘old girl network’ as giving people the wrong idea that there is something good about Non-Effeminate / Non-Homosex Males – which is just plane rong in their view.
Although I can’t afford a membership to Church Militant system itself, I found this You-Tube link to an Very Important episode of “The Vortex” that is Right On Topic.
Michael Voris also points out that the campaign to Drive Men Away from the Church (but sign up for automatic tithing before the go) – is not just widespread, but purposeful.
Finding a Parish that adheres to the Magisterium, and Isn’t Hostile to Masculinity – is becoming a real problem, even it you don’t include Altar Boys.
SEE:
Feminization of the Church
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW-JWhSWmyk
https://www.churchmilitant.tv/daily/?today=2012-01-16
Michael, I’ve been thinking about dropping my pj media subscription…it is only $5 a month but if someone else here could cough up the other five we could make sure you got your monthly fee. If anyone would profit from all the other wonderful programs on Church Militant, it is you. I could ask the people there about it if you’re interested. I subscribe to New Oxford Review, and many people give subscriptions for those who can’t afford them. I just waste my Mil.tv sub. as I rarely watch all the terrific programs. I tried to Latin lessons for a while but I think I’m too old to pick it up now.
My parish isn’t hostile to men or masculinity at all. Men get preferential treatment.
“…Men get preferential treatment.”
Funny – That’s what my Draft Board said, and I believe them just like I do you.
Michael,
ChurchMilitantTV.com has both a free subscription and a paid subscription, so there really is no valid excuse not to view it. Michael Voris gave up a very lucrative Main Stream Media News Reporter position to engage in Catholic Church evangelization, and he is doing a great job!
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Our parish has begun grandfathering out the female servers in place of male servers.
As one who works with servers I do not see any spike in male serving.
We have two female servers now and they are both respectful and good at serving.
The weekend Masses are male servers only.
Hope this helps
Just reading the preceding comments makes it clear to me that the altar girl issue is joined to the feminist movement. The ultimate objective is to have women ordained to the priesthood. Since this goal is out of reach, at least for the present time, feminists will find wedge issues such as altar girls to advance their agenda. Because some more conservative parishes have finally decided to return to altar boys, the feminists are understandably mortified since they consider this a return to the dark ages of Roman Catholicism. By the way, I have read and re-read the epistles of Saint Paul in several languages and have yet to find the words: “Brothers and Sisters”. I wish someone would work to get that jarring discord out of the Sunday readings.
It is clearly a falsification of the original text, most likely a concession to the sisterhood. Somewhere I have seen it written: “Change neither a tittle nor a jot”… BTW: There is a book by a similar title: “Iota Unum” by Amerio Romano, about the devastating effects of the second council, and how small alterations have had drastic consequences. Read it!
Where is the control group?
We should have a ban on male altar servers until all homosexual Priests have been removed from the Priesthood.
Ski: Yours is a very cynical view, which contributes nothing to this discussion. By the best estimates extant, the number of homosexual priests is no higher than the number of homosexual protestant ministers, rabbis, and school teachers. I can understand your concern but I believe the worst is behind us. Let us pray to God that it is!
It is most likely that your assertion is incorrect, Anton, since most Protestant ministers are married, and most Catholic priests are not. Studies have suggested that as many as 50% of Catholic priests are homosexual by nature if not by current practice. This may have been true historically as well.
We need to raise our level of accuracy in these comments and stop sounding like ignorant backwoods reactionaries from the 19th Century. Many of us are beneficiaries of the Catholic educational system, and more is expected of us than the blunderheaded comments too many people post here without any evidence of clear thinking.
Maryanne: Relevant statistics prove that a married clergy is no guarantee against child molestation. I am merely citing other authorities; I have not conducted any studies myself.
Maryanne,
Where is your evidence for your above comment?
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
That group did a lot of damage to a multitude of boys. That just shows how dangerous they are. Sodomitical abuse of a boy is not something to be taken lightly. It is the destruction of a young boy. It is way too soon to say the worst is over. I see no evidence the root cause of the problem has been addressed. There are still parishes that are famous for being dens of sodoholics. One of those parishes gets reported on a lot on this website. Altar boys will not be safe until the filth that infests the Church is cleansed. You may not like me commenting here, but that’s tough. You don’t own this website. You can start your own website and ban me for life if that will make you happy.
Ski: I intended no offense and I apologize if you saw my comments in that way. Perhaps it is I who is mistaken in saying the worst is probably behind us. The church has been suffering for more than two decades now and is spending herself into bankruptcy paying compensation to the victims of these filthy criminals, in the full knowledge that no amount of money can ever make up for the life-altering trauma many of these young boys experienced. The root of the problem now lies far in the past when seminaries began accepting and then preferring homosexuals, which drove many sincere seminarians away. I fear, and you so convincingly validate my fears, that this cohort of sodomites is now in their forties and still in their prime. No doubt they are being protected by their bishops, some of whom are probably closet gays themselves. If you know of a parish you call a den of sodoholics, you have a moral obligation to contact the Apostolic Delegate and report your findings to him. I would not waste my time with the local bishop, who is evidently disinclined to clean out his stable. Yours in Christ.
That can be solved by the fathers of the altar boys getting involved.
I feel the same way about altar girls as I do with the young women who go
to an University on a soccer scholarship and then what???????Its’ not like
they are going to then be picked up by a major soccer team! And so it is
with altar girls…….there is no chance of becoming Priests!!!!!
Um…Elizabeth…being an altar server…or a lector…or an usher…or a Eucharistic minister…or a cantor…is NOT about becoming a priest later.
It’s about serving God and God’s people in the Sacred Liturgy.
Elizabeth I hate to break it to you but your example was not a good one in regards to soccer……if you want to win this argument look up the facts …the truth is something that does not need to much bluff, its just beautiful.
c’mon, gimme a break, altar girls?…did you say altar girls?…thankfully, none at my parish…just altar boys, and very traditional novus ordo and tridentine as well…communion at the altar rails…no hands out, standing erect rubbish!
In the Byzantine Catholic (under the Holy Father in Rome) there is no such thing as altar ‘girls.’ As such, in parishes you find many altar boys.
Where I go to Mass, we don’t have to deal with this problem. It doesn’t exist.
Ok, this is really bothering me how people find female altar servers unappealing because they falsely connect it to feminism and the desire of women ordination. I was a altar server growing up. I found the experience very spiritually beneficial. While, I, like many people, drifted from the faith during my early adulthood. That bond that took place in the years serving the Lord, helped to draw me home. It helped save me. I do not object to female altar servers, since Jesus did have female disciples that followed and served him. And at no point do I feel females should be ordained (that is something completely different from serving). While I have no daughters, when I see the altar servers at my church (all male), I often think back warmly of my serving days and wonder if I had a daughter, would I be cheating her out of that opportunity to serve the Lord in this way (if that’s what she wanted).
As for the statistics, I don’t think the correlation is accurate. When numbers dwindle, people flock to the most orthodox churches out of fear of becoming part of a washed down church. Male altar servers, since that was a long held tradition, happens to occur often in churches that adhere to more orthodox teaching. But just like music preferences (organ vs. piano vs. guitar), if the church wants to look traditional and go all boy -fine. But if they want the co-ed servers- fine too. It has nothing to do with ordination or people leaving the church. It is just a different style of worship. And women benefit from it just as much as men.
Carrie OK find it how ever you feel but there is a reason why it was always meant for boys only……do your research and souls searching and you will find how much deeper your faith will go. God bless.
Abeca,
You seem to assume here that I am a “lukewarm Catholic” or without deep understanding of my own faith. Maybe its time you get to know me better. I gave up my career and secular life after enriching my faith. I put a side those passions for the sake of raising a family and heeding the Lord’s calling, because I was concerned about my own spiritual well being and that of my family. It was not a easy sacrifice, but I did it for the Lord. My experiences as a youth is what called me back when I drifted away, and drew me to come closer to the faith. I am not just a “Sunday Catholic”. I have studied and continue to study the faith. I understand why some people prefer boy altar servers, just as they might prefer hearing Latin, or listening to organs & Gregorian chants at Mass. There is something about tradition. But, if you listen to Mass in your native tongue, or live in country where pipe organs are not the favored instrument, the mass is no less authentic. Female servers, lectors, and Eucharistic ministers are allowed by the church. There is nothing sinful or distasteful about it. Its funny because many people quibble about washing women’s feet during Holy week because Christ chose male apostles, but what did the Holy Father do last spring? Would you say Pope Francis needs to do some soul searching and study his faith a little deeper too?
God Bless
Carrie read my comments from September 9, 2013 at 11:31 pm above and that same date at 11:33pm. Also in reply to your reply, You yourself have analyzed that I was saying you were lukewarm? No not really, didn’t even cross my mind. I was just encouraging you to continue growing. A similar argument was used by the woman who wanted the church to ordain women priests, so all that you said seems irrelevant to me. It’s not that I don’t understand what you are saying, not at all because I get a sense that I do because of the way things are today and how it is affecting our views and thinking. Pride is an ugly thing, of course we know that the church has allowed girl alters servers…..just like man has allowed divorce into their hearts even after Jesus spoke against it. It came from our Lord’s mouth, because of man’s ever changing heart. Unfortunately it’s not always in good will, man’s heart.
Carrie Look what King Henry VIII did, he was a Roman Catholic. He didn’t agree with the church and instead started his protestant church….what I am trying to convey is that man’s hearts always change and sometimes the church knows this and who knows why changes are permitted but it does not mean that it sits well with God. God allows it but not without consequences. Something to think about.
Actually, King Henry VIII was declared a Defender of the Faith by Pope Leo X for writing a pamphlet defending the Faith and the Sacraments against Protestantism. The Anglican Church was began when the Pope would not annul the marriage of King Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon. The King wanted the annulment on the grounds that she had been married to his brother. The Pope had given him a dispensation so that he could marry her. King Henry VIII had the marriage annulled by Bishop Cranmer which led to the break with the Catholic Church. Technically, the Anglicans are not a Protestant Church.
The marriage of Catherine of Aragon to her first husband. King Henry VIII’s brother, was declared annulled since she claimed the marriage had never been consummated. That was very possible because they had not been married very long before he died, thus the dispensation in the first place.
Anonymous,
I could agree with everything you wrote up until the last sentence. Please give us documentation that “the Anglicans are not a Protestant Church, if you can!
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
I guess it is a matter of how one defines Protestant. There, of course, is no documentation for it. You can search Is the Anglican Church Protestant and see various viewpoints on it. I was referring to it’s conception which was not in protest of any church doctrine. Obviously over the years it has changed, but there have been many splits because of the changes. Some have wanted to keep to traditions that are from their origins in the Catholic Church and have formed their own Churches. Others have joined with the Catholic Church.
Very well said indeed. How wonderful that your girlhood experiences in the Catholic Church have helped to bring you back home to the faith. Your comments are well reasoned and bear the mark of authenticity based on your personal experience with the subject. I agree with your every observation and thank you for taking time to share your thoughts with us all. And I believe Jesus will prove to be pleased with your service as an altar girl as well, something you surely will learn when you meet Him in heaven.
Maryanne Jesus personal experience is greater than anyone Else’s…..
“Very well said indeed. ” Wow… Maryanne Leonard is now praising Carrie/k/anonymous. Dead and Desperate Giveaway. Is it merely just a coincidence that Maryanne Leonard ran such glowing interference praise for a popular priest who ridicules church teaching regarding same sex marriage? Maryanne relegated the obligation of helping Father Greg Boyle to obey God and Church teaching to others, yet Maryanne is certainly a johnny on the spot corrector of anything that might offend a feminist. k did the same for the Santa Clara priest who promoted the lesbian play titled “Stop Kiss.” This was done while both posters are always reporting to personally accept “all” Church teaching. These are waving red flags of inconsistency. Barbara Johnson is a lesbian who was refused Holy Communion yet k was compelled to undermine the faithful priest who actually stood up for the teachings that k claims to accept. That is another example of inconsistency. To prefer to consistently console the sins of the past instead of moving forward in God’s mercy will keep one from faithfully and consistently serving God first.
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITION
THE FIRST COMMANDMENT
“YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND”
Inordinate Love
1 John 2:15 (Douay Bible)
“Love not the world, nor the things which are in the world. If any man love the world, the charity of the Father is not in him.”
I usually don’t respond to these things but since you are targeting another, I will this time. It was not me that posted this.
And for the record on that priest I supposedly undermined-the information that “undermined” him came from the priest himself.
“And for the record on that priest I supposedly undermined-the information that “undermined” him came from the priest himself.”
And you just whoops accidentally happened to fashion that so called information as a weapon to be used against him. BTW, That was not your first attempt either at fashioning a drive by shooting comment aimed at a good priest for defending Church teaching on homosexuality. Dead Giveaway.
Catherine, for the umpteenth time, I did not undermine a faithful priest. I did not undermine Church teaching on homosexuality. It is false witness for you to say so. You are sinning gravely. It is not worth going to hell for.
What is all this Dead Giveaway stuff? Dead Giveaway of what?
It took forever to find it but is this the post you are referring to?
Posted Thursday, March 15, 2012 11:06 AM By k
Just to clarify a little, Father Guarnizo is not the pastor of St. John Neumann. Father Thomas LaHood is. Father Guarnico is a priest of the diocese of Moscow. He had been given faculties in the Archdiocese of Wahington; those have been suspended. Father Guarnizo himself is not suspended because his bishop in Moscow would have to do that. Father LaHood and Bishop Knesta have said that Father Guarnizo was not suspended because of the Barbara Johnson communion incident, but because of intimidating parish staff and “others’. Father Guarnizo has identified the other as the funeral director and that the conversations in which he was “intimidating” to them were about Barbara Johnson’s mother’s funeral. He believes he was civil.
I’m so fed up with those who accuse of Catherine of targeting people! Open you hearts to true charity and you will see just that with Catherine…her heart is in the right place, a real gem!
Catherine, this isn’t about anyone’s opinion of same sex marriage. Not everything is about same sex marriage or homosexuality, ok? And not everyone is “k”.
Catherine, you wrote:
“…Barbara Johnson is a lesbian who was refused Holy Communion yet k was compelled to undermine the faithful priest who actually stood up for the teachings that k claims to accept.”
Could you provide some more background for this, as I am not familiar with this case – or maybe read about it from a different author who left out some details.
Regardless – Standing Up for Priests who Stand Up for the Church – is a Duty of the Faithful, or ought to be.
Michael McDermott, Barbara Johnson is a lesbian who was denied Holy Communion by a courageous and faithful priest. Barbara’s living arrangements were made known to this priest right before this priest was about to say the funeral Mass for Barbara’s mother. Now some might say, “That is not being courageous, he was just doing what he is supposed to be doing.” On one hand that statement is true but we know that with all of the compromise within the Church that it is not quite that simple for a priest today OR easy to do when at any given moment your faculties can be removed by your superior who is more sympathetic to homosexual activists. The priest’s name is Father Marcel Guarnizo. There are many different articles written about this incident. Please type Father Guarnizo’s name into your search engine you will see them. The mainstream media took delight in trying to make this priest look bad. We expect that from the supporters of the culture of death but it should be called out and identified when someone is pretending to be faithful while underhandedly trolling faithful websites undermining these courageous priests. There has been a definite pattern on this website for certain roaming poster/posters to claim to accept all teachings. They have consistently run interference for the homosexual lobby. They will deny this but there have been numerous red flags. Their lies and their clever subtle attempts to undermine the character of a good priest have been neutralized to some degree because these trolls have been exposed and they have to find a new method. The latest method is to deny that is has been done at all. I don’t expect that everyone has paid that close of attention but some have. These individuals who run cleverly run interference and undermine courageous priests DO know what the Catholic Church teaches and this is why they are able to often fool the gullible and the trusting. It reminds me of a true story that I will share with you. Cont…..
Michael McDermott,
A woman who is involved with the training of many CCD and religion teachers in our diocese told the teachers that she often lied and made up emotional stories to get people to feel sorry for her life’s circumstances in order to have the people feel sorry for her. This woman told the class that she was teaching that she used this method to get people to think in a certain way or to sway them to her views. This woman also called herself a faithful Catholic but in reality she held much disdain towards our Catholic Church. She showed a heretical video training tape to the teachers. To this day I still cannot believe how incredible dumb it was for this woman to openly admit that she makes up stories to sway the minds of teachers in a classroom setting of adult religion teachers, but in one way it was beneficial because it showed what is interiorly taking place in many a diocese. This experience shows the methods and what level someone is willing to go to attain an agenda while destroying the authentic Catholic faith by teaching heresy. This story is true. If this one example can take place in our religion teacher training programs then it can certainly happen on faithful Catholic websites. Activists who are outspoken are obvious. You know what they are working for. I am referring to a more insidious type of destructive activism that cleverly disguises itself as being accepting of all Church teaching, using subtle means to silence the truth and silence good priests that we have to be aware of.
cont………
Michael Mcdermott,
Taken from Father Z’s blog
See: Phil Lawler on “The betrayal of Father Guarnizo”
Posted on 17 March 2012 by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf
Phil Lawler on CWN has a piece worthy of your attention today.
The betrayal of Father Guarnizo
By Phil Lawler
Bishop Knestout’s letter was entirely sympathetic to Johnson, entirely unsympathetic to Father Guarnizo. There was no hint that under some circumstances the priest might have been right to refuse Communion, and no hint that Johnson had been wrong to provoke the refusal. The message was a betrayal in two ways:
First, it is not clear whether Father Guarnizo was right to deny Barbara Johnson the Eucharist. But it is quite clear, and has been from the outset, that Barbara Johnson was wrong to present herself for Communion.
Second, the vicar general’s public statement did something very similar to what it accused Father Guarnizo of doing. A priest cannot lightly refuse Communion to someone he deems a sinner, because—among other things—by doing so he creates a scandal, exposing that “sinner” to public humiliation. Yet the archdiocese exposed Father Guarnizo to public humiliation. cont…..
Taken from Father Z’s blog
The betrayal of Father Guarnizo By Phil Lawler cont.
“And why did the archdiocese leave this poor priest dangling? Because he violated a policy of the archdiocese—a policy that may be in conflict with the law of the universal Church? At worst Father Guarnizo was guilty of a minor infraction against a local policy, not a serious transgression against God’s law. The archdiocesan policy weighed against refusing the Eucharist even when that action was justified (in fact obligatory), and the first statement from Bishop Knestout spoke only of the archdiocesan policy without making reference to the more serious questions about God’s law. So the faithful had every reason to worry that a good priest might be wrongly disciplined. And the subsequent statement from Bishop Knestout, claiming that Father Guarnizo had been removed from ministry for reasons unrelated to the Eucharistic incident, strained the credulity of the most loyal Catholics. We still do not have all the facts. But faithful Catholics cannot be blamed for harboring strong suspicions.
The betrayal of Father Guarnizo sends a chilling message to every priest in Washington: that if he is zealous in defending the Eucharist, he cannot count on support from the archdiocese. Since other radical activists will no doubt follow Barbara Johnson’s example, we can expect another test case soon. Let’s hope and pray that the next time, the archdiocese will show at least as much solicitude for the Eucharist (not to mention the accused priest) as for the critics of the Church.”
Catherine, I am continually amazed that a woman of your intellect and knowledge about the Catholic faith would find it appropriate to attack other people personally, such as myself, for daring to think for myself and posting on this site. I think by attacking people so regularly and so viciously, your points get lost in the bloodshed, which you my not realize is hurtful to other people, not very Christian of you to say nothing of not very Catholic of you, and really is not, I hope, what you learned from nuns and priests about how to live out a good Catholic life.
You denigrate me for daring to think I am equal in the eyes of God to any man ever born and wish to be treated as such, along with every other person. If I accepted the teachings of Catherine the Great here, would I have to abandon my belief about that? If I don’t, should I expect to be pilloried every time I point out ways in which women and girls (and often men and boys) are not treated as human beings of equal value in our society or within our Church? I’ll take the high road and use the brains God gave me to think for myself on everything I chose to, thank you very much. Attack away, unless you see that that is the low road and does zero for your cause; in fact, you lose support by readers with every mean-spirited comment denigrating people personally. So much for winning arguments.
And I’ll take Father Boyle and his shortcomings, thank you very much, for serving God and his fellow man and give him credit where credit is due and forgive his faults, knowing he has taken the high road and is trying like crazy to leave the world a great deal better place than he found it.
I suggest you try harder to do the same in your own personal ways and ratchet up your behavior until you reach higher ground too, my friend. Debate, don’t attack. Show some class and prove Catholic ladies can be smart without being mean-spirited and judgmental.
Maryanne, I did not like it when those who disagreed with you went over the top. But now I am regretting what I posted earlier. What’s with this referring to Catherine as Catherine the Great? Unfortunately, you are reminding me of someone who mockingly referred to Skai as the great and powerful Skai. What’s with you saying that Catherine attacks people regularly and viciously? Can you supply me with some quotes to prove your case? It is beginning to look like you are taking the low road, and you have lost the support of this reader. Supporting Father Boyle certainly does not help your case. Even though I am pressed for time, I took the time to look up an article on this website about Father Boyle. Your canonization of Father Boyle destroyed your credibility with me. I also saw Mark from PA and Francis praise your comment and Your Fellow Catholic agreed with you. I am suspicious of anyone those guys support.
Carrie,
You have obviously NOT read any of Donna Steichen’s books such as “Ungodly Rage” on this subject or you would not make the statements you made!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Catherine,
It is imperative that CRCOA knows the name of that dissenting Religion Teacher, because she might be on the Archdiocese of Lost Angels (Los Angeles) Religious Dis-Education Congress. If so we need to highlight her next year on our tabloid. My Email is: crcoa@att.net/phones: 714-491-2284/714-260-3821.
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
As someone who is discerning the priesthood, specifically the Religious Life. Norbertines most likely, I have gotten a spiritual director not too long ago and the first thing he told me to do was to alter serve. Now I became an altar server in the parish that my spiritual director (the priest) celebrates Mass. The first reason well mind as well be an altar server with my spiritual director. Second of all in many of the other parish around me, specifically the closest one to me, the majority of altar servers are girls. I remember not too long ago I saw not even one altar boy celebrating Mass.
I myself believe that altar serving should be left to only men. I understand that the Church allows women to altar serve. Just because the Church allows for something does not mean it should be done. The Church allows us to receive Christ in the hand, I refuse to receive that way. Rather I choose to kneel down and take that extra step.
Second of all Altar serving is a pathway to the priesthood. That is specifically why my spiritual director who is a priest told me to do just that. I am pretty sure that if there girl altar servers at the Mass I serve, it would not be the same, I would be distracted, and as a matter of fact might make me lose my priestly vocation if I get too distracted- you know what I mean.
Lastly for those that say that not allowing girls from altar serving is repressive. I don’t think so. It is not that women should not play any role at Mass, or that they should not having any position at church, it is simply that women and men have different roles to play. I like the post that someone earlier stated about Men being priest and Women being nuns, it keeps a balance and a good one.
Your spiritual director has his work cut out for him.
Arturo Ortiz God bless you in your discernment! I agree with you 100% You are correct in what you are saying and I pray the best for you. Ignore the uncharitable comment by Another Anon. It doesn’t know what it’s talking about. You seem to be on the right track and it must be the holy Ghost who is guiding your reasoning. God bless you!
“..I am pretty sure that if there girl altar servers at the Mass I serve, it would not be the same, I would be distracted, and as a matter of fact might make me lose my priestly vocation if I get too distracted- you know what I mean…”
To blame girls for your inability to control your feelings is a good reason to stay way from the altar all together.
Adam blamed Eve for offering him the forbidden apple… why Adam, who got the instruction directly from God, did not question the source of the apple?
jenny your knowledge of scripture is troubling….not a good defense on your part for using the example of Adam and Eve…not at all and not relevant to this dialogue…..
jenny,
Your spiritual ignorance is too apparent. The late Fr. Aloysius Elacuria, CMF whose cause is now being promoted, once told me “the Devil assigns a special woman to distract and destroy a priest’s vocation. The Great St. Padre Pio pretty much said the same thing.
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Arturo, I do hope you become a priest someday, and I do hope you will continue to open your heart and mind to consider all the teachings of the Catholic Church, with which you show evidence here of not being in full accord. Your views of how women and girls should be restricted to limited roles bodes ill for your ability to serve the entirety of a congregation well, which is sadly made up of more women than men. If you continue to see men as you do, perhaps you should consider getting additional education even before you begin any future studies for the priesthood. Your views are not a full reflection of the love of God for us all.
ML instead of wagging your school marm finger at a young man considering making a lifetime sacrifice for Our Lord Jesus Christ, you should be screaming at the pant suited tyrants running the parishes and chancery offices who are still angry at God he didn’t give them the Y Chromosome. Better yet save your anger for the LCWR and rest of the clipped haired ghouls who getting beyond the Jesus narrative and doing all they can to remove and residue of authentic masculinity from the Church, and practice Wicca.. Arturo ignore these fingering waving women, and serve Christ, it will be men like you who rebuild the crumbling Church that’s been destroyed by 50 years of feminists in the ranks
Maryanne Leonard,
Once again I see that your limited understanding of Catholic Church teaching has you writing extremely goofy sounding comments. It is not a good sign Maryanne that all of the other disobedient trolls who roam this website are agreeing with you. Dead Giveaway! Thank you for showing Arturo what he will face and for proving that Arturo is absolutely right in his striving to always be a faithful servant of God first before listening to a servant of false feminist ideologies. . Maryanne, It is not right to transmit your anger towards men or “father” figures as a new found religion. God is our Perfect Father and His only begotten Son established a Church with specific teachings. You also praised and practically canonized a priest who ridicules Church teaching while working with gang members so you really are not the best person to instruct future seminarians. Healthy views of God as a Father figure would have you focusing on God first before you defend your obsession with false idols before God. Also, Dana made a significant point. You have consistently ignored and dismissed many of Dana’s and Abeca’s kind posts to you so your goofy equivalent sounding Helen Reddy “I Am Woman Hear Me Roar” for the sisters comments certainly do not match up with your own selective posting actions. You have been extremely dismissive of the very kind words of these beautiful sisters in Christ. Dead Giveaway.
***** (I’m giving you a five star rating) Thanks Catherine, for your faithfulness and your kindness. I think we’re on someone’s ignore list, but I won’t lose any sleep, will you? God is so good and I have a smile on my face for no apparent reason. It must be love!
You’re right! God IS so good Dana! May God continue to bless you sweet sister in Christ. Keep smiling! : )
Catherine and Dana I think that Maryanne Leaonard said in the past that she won’t respond to comments that she finds rude or something like that. We have been shunned, so to speak, but it’s OK. : )
It’s a pity because I know that your comments are actually in good will and you are not trying to hurt her in anyway, you just happen to point out things. I found it sad that people would pick on someone who is discerning on becoming a priest. That was hard to read…..
To me that is much more sad than Ski Ven thinking that many are being rude to Maryanne Leonard. Not that I don’t sympathize but I thought we were just having a moment where we agree to disagree kinda dialogues. Well ANYHOO To be humble maybe we can take Ski Ven’s words to heart and soften up a little I suppose. I don’t know what would please Ski Ven…..oh yes he/she said to chill…..that would suffice. I don’t use that word “chill” but I know that when teenagers say it to an adult it would or could be a sign of disrespect! Like when they say take a chill pill or just chill when they don’t want to hear it from their parents…. I’m more for the expression “lets have a cup of tea” and if I don’t like something “it’s not my cup of tea either” lol
ML pride is the root of all evil
So true Abeca, and it’s constantly changing it’s identity so that what seems like humility is really pride. “Swallow one’s pride’ is probably some of the best advice we can give or get…because it usually comes out of the mouth and if we can swallow those words before they lead us into real trouble, we can save ourselves a heap o’ mischief, by gum. Saying is so much easier than doing, how’m so’ever.
That is true Dana. Just the other day, I was having a conversation with a friend and I pointed something out to her and she said “BUT I AM HUMBLE”….I laughed and she laughed right after, after hearing herself.
What you described is also being meek, when someone just “swallows one’s pride and avoids prideful anger”.
Dredging up the past, distorting it to make it appear worse than it was, using it to embarrass someone, picking fights and not fighting fair are very serious flaws in a person’s character
kanonymous finally admits…”Dredging up the past, distorting it to make it appear worse than it was.”
k, I’m glad to read that you are finally admitting that it was very wrong for you to dredge up the past stories about the courageous priests who stand up for Church teaching on homosexual issues.
Catherine, I always stand up for all Church teachings (unlike you). You are the one who always dredges up the past of those priests (possibly undermining Fr. G’s pro-life work and the other’s Traditional Latin Mass restoration-but hopefully not.) Why do you hate me so much that you will risk the fires of hell and the wrath of God by your lies and manipulations? Is it because I make you feel bad? Is it because you had a sad and unhappy life and something bad has happened to you? Is it because you really resent the sacrifices that being Catholic requires? I pray for you a lot and I hope you can overcome the problems. It really doesn’t matter I guess if you say things that aren’t true about me. God knows they are not true. Satan has a reason. I don’t think he is after me. They say that he intensifies his attacks as a person comes to the end of their life. I will intensify my prayers for you. St. John Bosco recommended devotion to Mary, Help of Christians and I know, St. Michael will help you. But because of the seriousness of your sins, you need to confess. God help you, you are so faithful in so many ways. Please obey Jesus and the Blessed Mother and the Popes. You have given your ear to people who have led you astray but you do not understand that yet. Pray, please, before it is too late. God bless you. Arise, O Lord and let your enemies be scattered. Let them that hate You flee before Your Face.
Do you know the morning offering to the Sacred Heart of Jesus: O Jesus, through the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I offer You all my prayers, works, joys and sufferings of this day, in union with the Holy Mass being prayed this day around the world. I offer them for all the intentions of Your Sacred Heart: the salvation of souls, reparation for sin, the reunion of all Christians. I offer them for the intentions of Your Bishops, and of all Apostles of Prayer and in particular for those recommended by the Holy Father this month. Amen. Do you know how to find the Holy Father’s intentions? I am resigned to suffer your persecution as long as the Lord allows it. From now on I will never address them but offer them up in silence for these intentions.
No K Catherine is just trying to get you to admit the obvious…so lay off her. and your lie of her not standing up for the faith…is down right a lie and full of deception! It’s clear who is in good will! I cheer for Catherine! At least she is honest!
Abeca,
Thank you sweet dear sister in Christ! : ) I am so pleased to see an increase in posts from very faithful STRONG men as well as very good women who are posting in defense of “all” Church teaching on CCD. It is also important and a great blessing to have our faithful priests post on CCD. Faithful priests who have been persecuted for their faithfulness do understand that no servant is greater than the master. When Our Lord sweat drops of blood in his agony of the garden, our Lord knew that all of these things would be taking place. This is why Our Lord said on the Cross, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.” The faithful should not ever abandon their faithful priests who have followed in the footsteps of Jesus carrying the cross. We recognize their voice.
The John Chapter 10 :14-15 “I am the good shepherd; and I know mine, and mine know me. As the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father: and I lay down my life for my sheep.” …..Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible
Your welcome Catherine…I am growing tired of the attacks that are thrown at you. It’s not right and we need to stick together and not allow it without a rebuttal. I agree, we are so blessed to have a few priests who are faithful, who post here. I really appreciate their input and would love to see this website improve it’s website as well and it would be nice if they have more well written articles from devout and holy priests. Articles of their homilies, teaching the faith more depth and with clarity so no matter what the dissenters feel, the truth is the truth.
Catherine i was visiting a conservative Christian website and it had an article about a couple standing up for their believes in regards to homosexual unions, they stoop up against the gay mafia and did not budge or allowed them to bully them, you should have read all their comments, they were so lovely and supportive and in perfect unity with Biblical truths…unlike here, we usually have the gay activists and even so called Catholics attacking the faith and others who stand firm in their faith….it was refreshing to stay on their blog, it was so supportive of their biblical morals. It’s too bad that we have many bad willed Catholics lobbying on posts in Catholic website, it just looks like we are not united.
Obviously using the anonymous default causes confusion. It is because someone is looking to judge and criticize others. As I posted before, I picked a name and was criticized for it so I returned to the default. If people respond to the comment and not the commenter ( or who they think the commenter is) it really would not matter. Or better yet, stand up for this church teaching: https://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1303892.htm . But to spare innocents, I will abandon the default.
Arturo Ortiz, if being an altar server with a girl will distract you from your duties, and “I know what you mean” (although I hope I’m wrong), how will you be a good priest when a lot of your parishers will be women??? With that kind of thinking I’m not sure you are the kind of man who can be a catholic priest. Priests are not supposed to get distracted by women. I suggest you talk this over with your spiritual director. Love and blessings.
nana,
You are one of those who think that once a man becomes a priest, he becomes a Eunich. Such ignorance is beyond justification.
I know many priests, some who are bishops, archbishops, and even Cardinals, and you are way off!
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Arturo ~ As a priest, you will be ministering to both men and women. If there are now young women alter servers, at mass you will be looking out at women whom you find attractive. You will also work with women, again some whom you find attractive who are mothers in the parish school, on parish committees etc. If you are so distracted you can’t function, perhaps ypou should consider if marriage is your true vocation.
So, let me understand this, the altar girls covered up in robes are distracting, but the females in your pews, who may or may not be modestly dressed are not? Are you afraid of seeing the girls ankles and wrists? Most of us work in a co-ed environment, and learn to deal with it. Priests are no exceptions. I would think a attractive women spilling out her personal life in a face to face confession is more problematic then a prepubescent girl all covered up in long garment.
Ah the attack of the feminists Carrie, ML, Nana and Jenny the knives are certainly out for Arturo..Maybe you school marms should clam up, a young man actually wants to be Priest and you are all certainly piling on…I think all of you would fit right into the chancery offices or parishes where you can wield your feminist wands and attack as many young men as possible… God Almighty will your Church server any more high doses of Feminism …Arturo ignore these women,, women will always be a distraction,, you just have to learn to overcome it… you want to why husbands die before their wives, because we want to
Cansius writes: “Arturo ignore these women,, women will always be a distraction,, you just have to learn to overcome it… you want to why husbands die before their wives, because we want to”.
Hard to imagine a more misogynistic post, especially the part after the dots.
YFC I have my reasons and all of them are well earned and vaild
What could be more misogynistic than for a man to prefer another man to a woman? That is rejection of all that a woman is and has to offer. Actually, that is something I always found really unacceptable on so many levels when I was young.
Canusis ~ As a woman, I’m so sorry that women have hurt you in the past. Like men, or any other group of people we have both good and bad among us. Please try to focus on the good women around you who try to emulate Mary Magdelene and Mary the Mother of God as best they can.
C&H I wasn’t hurt by women per say, only two.. and nearly killed by one of them… and thankfully she is now suffering in pain… Personally I prefer to emulate St. Michael the Archangel or St. Peter Canisius, strong and masculine, I know in the world lesbians that is a capital crime, which is all the more reasons I like these saints..
C&H my attitude is part of an all encompassing and never ending war against homosexuals especially those embeded in the Church…..
mankind has a wicked heart,,,,,to falsely misinterpret the comments of a soul who is discerning….
Carry, I have news for you. Even as an older man, Servant of God, Archbishop Fulton Sheen, admitted in one of his books that he kept women he was counselling way over on the other side of the table because he was still tempted and attracted to some of them. Some times the hormones rage even in old age.
St. Padre Pio taught the women who approach the Altar immodestly dressed, when they stand before God, will be shown the many priestly vocations they helped destroy or at a minimum, sorely stressed!
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Arturo,
Congratulations on choosing a Norbertine as your Spiritual Advisor. I have advised my Great nephew to also approach the Norbertines because most of them learn both the Novus Ordo and the Mass of St. Pius V. I firmly believe that it the path of the future.
The Church needs more MEN like you.
Viva Cristo Rey Hermano en Cristo!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Oddly enough parishes with all male altar boys also have women who are more feminine in nature…and I have found the converse to be true.
There is such a thing as ‘fraternitas’ and it benefits men AND WOMEN.
OK so is there something called a partially male altar boy? or a female altar boy? I just ask 1) Because you seem to be making a point through redundancy, and 2) Because it is just so silly to suggest that the sex of the people in the robes at the front of the Church for one hour a week has ongoing influence on the femininity or lack thereof of the women in the pews the 6 days plus 23 hours they are not in Church. Really this one just goes so far out there that even I am aghast at the lack of logic.
Your Fellow I will not argue with you.
You are CORRECT that those who confine their faith life to one hour once per week will hardly see their lives touched by the sacred liturgy.
But, as for the rest…
Let me state the obvious…this mere ‘one hour’ is one in which Our Dear Lord becomes the ‘Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity’ in the Eucharist. It is truly the source and summit of our Church! The Liturgy, the altar servers, the music and the congregants should all be focused on this miracle, this gift, this joy-giving, soul-fulfilling, God-given gift at what sacrifice, what great love, what unspeakably Holy and utterly impossible magnificence our beloved Trinity has freely given to us, so unworthy, so small, petty mean and selfish that we speak of it as one measly hour and so what if there are girls with tatoos and nail polish on their naked toes, and women fulfilling their demand for equality and rights and it’s their Church and if they want to offer the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity as oh-so-special Extra-ordinary, supercalifragilistic ministers, then by damn, they will all to the melody of “And He will lift you up on eagle’s wings’ because the congregation just loves to sing that one,and who wants that old-time music that’s always going on about praise and gratitude…and who cares if the priest is gay , it’s only for an hour, right?
Dana, who said anything about a measly hour or gay priests? Trying to convert this subject line into one about homosexuality again, Dear Dana?
seejay gets that you were talking about just an hour a week…”You are CORRECT that those who confine their faith life to one hour once per week will hardly see their lives touched by the sacred liturgy.” Re-read your post and perhaps you’ll understand what it was you really said, though I seriously doubt it. Anyone who takes communion while living in grave sin apparently has a very tenuous hold on reality.
YFC interesting you mention, the fact that you brought that up….made me think. Maybe you are right…it could be related to homosexuality…in a way. It could be, it may take a long post if I explained why but …..I’ll leave be…people could reason outside of the box and see things more clearly if we prayed more.
If you participate in the re-enactment of Cavalry properly, preparatory prayer, Mass, then prayer of Thanksgiving, it takes more than ONE HOUR. I prefer to say Her Rosary in thanksgiving and in the presence of Her Son in the Tabernacle after Mass, what a blessing!
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
So called YFC,
Why should anyone listen to the comments of a known admitted sodomite!
If you don’t like the term “sodomite”, take it up with God!
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
I always have and always will say “Altar boys.”
I didn’t read all of these comments, after reading a few my heart broke thinking what would Jesus, Our Lord, say. People think of this: When Jesus had not yet said to His own disciples that He was the Christ, but let them to reach to that conclussion by themselves, He told the woman at the well “I am the Christ”. Read the Bible and ask God to shed light on your reading. Instead of arguing like this, we should be thinking, what would Jesus would have me do. He said “judged not lets you be judged.” Love and blessings to all.
It’s interesting that feminist continue believing that women are discriminated in today’s world. Nothing could be further from the truth. Our society has become a woman’s world, to the point that it has hurt both man and woman. Men are discriminated against and de-masculinized. Many, many men have lost their identity and struggle to see how they fit into the family unit. They no longer lead, care for, or protect their wive’s and children. Why, because today’s wife can stand up for themselves. They can do it ALL. Work, take care of children, clean house, etc. they don’t need men. We all know that these women suffer within. Women do need men, and men need women. This is the natural order that God created.
To say that women are being discriminated in the Church is absurd. Women and men are equal, but we have different roles. I do not see how cleaning and ironing altar clothes, arranging flowers, organizing May processions, cleaning the house of God can be considered “menial.” These tasks are a privilege. We can serve Our Lord and show Him tender love by preparing those altar clothes, like the women surrounding Our Lord prepared his burial clothes. By the way, when Jesus rose from the dead, the first person he appeared to was a women. Why? Because they love much! We do not need to be front and center, running the parade, to have value. It isn’t what we “do” that gives us value, rather, with how much love we do it. Our value comes from within.
Angela, you are a very wise woman! God bless you!
Angela, you said it far better than I have. It was the women who prepared the spices and linen clothes for the body of our Lord, but it was the men who helped them wrap him in them. The women could not have done it alone. It would have been hard for them to left and wrap a man probably around six feet tall.
I am a woman and in total agreement that we should not have girls serving at mass. I also do not like the idea of priests washing the feet of women during Lent!! I have had my fill of political correctness and rampant feminism!! Our Lord did not wash the feet of women and neither should our priests. When will the Church stand up to PC and feminist intimidation?
The best server our parish has had in decades was a young woman who served throughout her high school years. She is now at the Air Force Academy.
I am not a feminist. I don’t believe in ordaining women as priests. I detest abortion and even birth control. I consider myself to be old fashioned. But sometimes when I read the comments from people so opposed to any female involvement at all, I get very discouraged. It begins to make me feel like women are not even considered to be human. I start to wonder if these people even think women will go to heaven. I agree that certain positions are reserved for men only, but women need to be treated with more respect from certain segments of the male church.
Well Anon consider it a backlash against the feminist that have taken over certain parishes and chancery offices, consider it a backlash against the LCWR and their goddess/wiccan worship and their “getting beyond the Jesus narrative”. Consider it a backlash against the emasculation of the Church and Priesthood and the Society as a whole, where any sign of authentic masculinity is to be crushed under the iron boot of a femi-nazi. As a man who is fed up with the feminists inside and outside the Church this natural and healthy reaction to their tyranny and evil
Annonymous,
You say you are not a feminist so we will take you at your word, but I have read no one’s comments that suggest what you have said they have written concerning women. The issue isn’t even about women, it is about daughters of Mary verses daughters of Satan (Feminist)!
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
FWIW, one of the parishes where I play violin/viola, at least at the two Masses at which I play , has a large and growing core of altar girls and very few altar boys. The other parish has both altar boys and girls, but at least at this Mass the girls outnumber the boys something like 2 to 1. I make no commentary on this; just reporting what I see.
Feminists and weak priests would have us believe that the issue is one of equality, but it isn’t and never has been. The issue is about God-given roles, and dissatisfaction over who got what. The scriptural evidence is indisputable that men are the head of the family–and over women. There is no to get around it and remain fathful to Holy Scripture. St. Paul has eloquently written about the nuances of that truth. In our day we tend to see men and women in a power struggle for authority, but that is a misunderstanding of God’s design. . Male and female complement each other. The act of sex illustrates that well, but with the coarsening of our society and the legitimization of perversion, such holy distinctions are lost and a merely political understanding has taken hold. Truly a demonic disorientation of truth.
Altar boy today has always given rise to the priest later. And that is the problem for feminists. They see (as do some priests of doubtful masculinity) in that arrangement an injustice foisted by the male priesthood of the Catholic Church on its members. Their remedy is to destroy the matrix and rebuild under their auspices (yes, these are the people who brought us worldwide abortion on demand).
Altar girls are a symptom of a far greater problems: heresy, disobedience and wholesale malfeasance by bishops and even popes. We have heretical nuns tooting around in buses touting dissent, disobedience and hatred for the God of the Gospels…and the people God gave us to defend the faith are no where to be seen.
I am very proud to say, I have served mass from 1964 to the present. yes now 49 yrs. I started in Latin until 1970 and then in English, now over 24,000 masses, 1634 funeral 3 baptisms, and for the last 10 yrs back to Latin Masses again. Next yr will be my 50th year of serving mass. I always felt it was a great privilege, and not a job, wearing a black cassock, white surplus, dark pants and always shined shoes. I will continue until the good Lord calls me. You young men are missing out on a great thing here, girls can not be priests, only men. Go to a Latin Mass, then you will see the real glory of serving close to the Altar. Deo Gratius
On a Related Note – the California Bar has a Monopoly on Licensing in the state, and my own experience shows it as even more Misandrist than Academentia, if not as transparently so.
However – Given that forewarned is forearmed, occasionally, I forward this Official ‘guide’
Updated legal guide for parents now available
https://www.calbar.ca.gov/Public/Pamphlets/KidstheLaw.aspx
As students head back to school, an updated version of the State Bar’s free “Kids & the Law: An A-to-Z Guide for Parents,” is now available for ordering.
Produced by the bar’s Communications and Information Services Office, “Kids & the Law” provides parents with information about laws affecting their children, their relationship with their children and important resources about drugs, driving, drinking and other issues facing all families.
The revised edition updates information on child safety seat laws, current drug use among high schoolers and clarifies sections describing criminal convictions and fines for minors.
The guide was produced with the help of a $50,000 grant from the California Bar Foundation. A Spanish translation will be available later in the year. First produced in 2001, the popular guide has been updated every three years since then.
Also available is “Seniors & the Law: A Guide for Maturing Californians” https://www.calbar.ca.gov/Public/Pamphlets/Seniors.aspx
and “When You Turn 18: A Survival Guide for Teenagers.”
https://www.calbar.ca.gov/Public/Pamphlets/WhenYouTurn18.aspx
That’s right. Girls can not be Catholic Priests. That means there is no place in the Catholic Priesthood for women and for sodoholics. Those who think otherwise can find another church.
Perhaps it is you, Skai Ven, who would be more content in another church, as ours has gay priests, and female lectors and altar servers, and will have them for a very long time.
Yes, and the results are staggering. A global sex abuse scandal where the victims are mostly boys and dioceses are being sued into bankruptcy due to Judas Bishops covering up for sodoholic Priests. Nowadays it is not shocking to learn that a Priest was caught by police with pictures of naked boys on his computer. Those kinds of scandals have happened so many times that they now seem to be business as usual. That is YFC’s idea of the way the Catholic Church should be. YFC now says that those who don’t like it should leave. YFC has got it backwards. Those who are harming the children should be forced out. Those who are protecting the children from predatory sodoholics should stay.
I absolutely totally agree with you that those who are harming the children should be forced out. But I absolutely take offense at your statement that the way the Catholic church should be is one in which priests have pictures of naked boys on their computer. NOTHING could be further from the truth, and I believe you owe me an apology. I have written repeatedly that those involved in the sex abuse scandal, whether they molested boys or girls, should be punished, and that statues of limitations should be extended so that we can find them and expose them. Those who covered up their crimes should also be exposed and face the court system. How could I possibly be any clearer on this, yet you accuse me of promoting it?
I am sorry that I thought that you were in favor of ordaining sexually disordered persons as Priests. Since you usually speak out in favor of those who are sexually disordered on this website, I figured that you are one of those who want them to be Priests. I guess that was a rash judgment on my part. The Catholic Priesthood is not for people who are sick enough to want to make genital contact with untreated sewage. When people do such things, they are disgusting. It is even worse when they harm an innocent child with such foul conduct. Such persons should never be ordained.
Excellent responses Ski Ven..God bless you….YFC you could learn something good today, just pray and listen….
YFC sinful
Giggling girls in ponytails running around the Altar doing nothing except driving boys away from serving Holy Mass. Boys want to be surrounded by other boys not silly girls in white robes, women and girls were always forbidden from the Altar it is not their place, it is called pride and power very demonic indeed. The TLM or TRUE MASS is making a comeback thanks to our Great Holy Father Pope Benedict the XVI.
Greetings from the heart of Europe to all. Holy Father John Paul II had given a direction once only boys can serve as altar boys. We have only boys serving as altar boys all over the country. He also asked all bishops to visit all their priests in their respective parishes on a regular basis. How many do that?
May God bless you all.
Vladimir
Vladimir: Thank you for your enlightening remarks! Indeed, Pope John put out the word that only boys should be altar servers. Our bishops just plain and simple gave the pope the middle finger. They did this on many issues. The American church ceased to be Roman Catholic when the bishops openly defied the Holy Father.
To Vladimir: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Being edified by your report of the traditional practice of the Catholic faith on the part of the Dioceses throughout your country, I feel impelled to respond to your questions. As for Bishops all around my country, I do not know what their practices are. As for my Bishop, he does not visit his Priests regularly and he allows for female altar servers. I wish to express my esteem and respect for those parts of the world who hold on to their traditional Catholic faith. I desire my own nation to be emulous of them. May the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob bless you.
“7-2-12 — VATICAN CITY — The pope fired a 52-year-old Slovak bishop on Monday for apparently mismanaging his diocese in a rare show of papal power over his bishops.”
Vladimir, thanks for telling us that only boys are worthy to serve Mass. How refreshing to have someone from Slovakia guiding our souls…
…like this character, the bishop in Slovakia mentioned in my earlier post:
After breaking off relations with his own auxiliary bishop and alienating all of the pastoral management directors inherited from Sokol – vicar general, chancellor, judicial vicar, treasurer, dean – Archbishop Bezak is believed to have entrusted “positions of responsibility to unworthy priests, some of them from other dioceses, in that they are living in situations of open immorality and violation of discipline.” Read: homosexuality and concubinage.
Not only that. Bezák is thought to have distinguished himself – still according to the Vatican authorities – “in blatant lack of observance of liturgical norms, in the support given to ideas contrary to Catholic doctrine consistently taught by the sacred magisterium with regard to the indissolubility of marriage, euthanasia, and the sacrament of Holy Orders, showing little respect for the Roman pontiff.”
Not to mention his “public mockery of clergy in clerical dress” and “wearing inappropriate secular clothing even on official occasions like visits to parishes to impart the sacrament of Confirmation.”
Bezák has repeatedly complained that he has not been informed by the Vatican authorities about the real accusations brought against him, and that he has not been able to explain his reasons to the leading authorities of the Roman curia and to the pope. And because of this, he has refused to resign.
In reality, at the end of the apostolic visitation in January, the visitor Baxant listened to him once again, presenting the accusations gathered and asking him to reply.
On May 3, Cardinal Marc Ouellet, prefect of the congregation for bishops, sent him a list of 11 questions concerning doctrine and discipline. To which Bezák responded in writing, in very argumentative terms…….
Yikes! I did not know about all of that when I responded to Vladimir. I am glad that Bishop got fired. I wish that some American Bishops were held accountable too.
Me, too.
I angers me that bishops who have done evil things — like letting pedophile priests be moved from parish to parish while knowing their crimes — were not sent to prison.
AFTER being removed from the positions by the Vatican, of course.
The bishops throw their priests under the bus even if they are merely ACCUSED, but they protect themselves like the Mafia or something.
Cardinal Mahony is but one infamous example: when the U.S. bishops declared their “zero tolerance policy” regarding child abuse back in 2002, any accused priest was immediately removed from office until proven innocent. However, when Mahony HIMSELF was accused, but did not apply this same standard to himself!!!
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander — even if he does wear a miter.
Vladimir,
As I understand it, your part of Europe may be Europe’s only Catholic HOPE; however you MUST control the Islamic infiltration, make them obey YOUR Constitution and Laws if they want to live in your part of Europe!
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
The Holy See, many years ago, permitted female altar servers as well as males, that’s good enough for me.
The Vatican also permits females to serve as lectors and Eucharistic ministers, so that’s fine with me also.
If the Church says “no” to something, such as female priests, or ‘celibate’ priest being sexual, that means NO.
Michael,
Pope John Paul II never signed the document that allowed female altar servers, a document that was put into effect while he was flat on his back in the hospital!
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Pope John Paul confirmed the decision on July 11 1992 and ordered it promulgated.
Yup!
Good Men – whether they started as Choir Boys, or Altar Boys, or just plain Boys who liked to get in to Mischief… Are Still Needed, even if Not Respected.
On this Anniversary of their Sacrifice, I am reminded of a saying from my own youth about the nature of Duty, as understood by Men:
Growl You May – Go You Must… So Go Easy Bro’s
Always Remember – they were Firemen, and Proud of It
FDNY 9/11
Lest we forget New York’s Finest on that Day:
“23” – 9/11/2001
May the souls of the firemen, police officers and other emergency workers who gave their lives on 9/11 to help others through the mercy of God rest in peace, and may all who died on that fateful day rest in peace. Thank you to the two million bikers who went there today to honor the dead today.
Thank you also to our soldiers, and may those soldiers who died fighting Islamic terrorism rest in peace.
Amen
In his book La Messe, (Bayard editions, 1988. p 30), Cardinal Jean-Marie Lustiger, Archbishop of Paris, says that Catholic tradition has always held that Mary, the Mother of Jesus, was present at the Last Supper with the other women disciples of Jesus, who also prepared the meal and all that was required for the ritual of the Pasch.
Michael,
Cardinal Lustiger is really not one I would quote! Besides, he is not the Magisterium. He is only part of the Magisterium when he is in complete accord with the Holy Father.
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
It’s amazing that a little article about altar boys has generated so much ink on this page!
You’d think we were talking about the bubonic plague or something.
For YEARS after the Second Vatican Council, girls were NOT allowed to serve Mass, but vocations still plummeted, so I don’t know why people think the deletion or girls from this role will get us heaps of priests.
What WILL help the priest vocation shortage is families encouraging their sons to consider the vocation, talking about it, praying about it, and asking their own priests to preach and talk about it. If we have happy, holy productive priests who speak from own their experience, this will inspire more young men to be open to God’s call.
If we rant and rave about how evil females are, and how they are unworthy to approach the altar, it will just make us look nutty, like the Taliban who force women to wear burqas and all that nonsense.
Nobody here has stated that girls are “evil” that is a typical LIBERAL MODERNIST response, what has been said is simply boys have their place in the Church and girls have one. The feminizing of the Male is the goal of the Left and certain women, I know that many think there is no difference between the sexes but guess what there is, just ask Our Lord who created us, this is all about POWER on the altar of sacrifice which in itself is the essence of EVIL called Satan!! Bring back the Traditional Latin Mass when Mass attendance was at 75% and the seminaries and convents were packed prior to the thing called Vatican II. These are based on facts please research these numbers they don’t lie.
Is there a difference between boys and girls and does that matter to the Church?
If we are to retain our Catholic heritage, then we need to follow those traditions. It seems however, that no one, from our ‘non-judgmental’, ‘valueless’ Pope on down, really cares about what happens in our Church. If it feels good, do it. “Who are we to judge?”
Um, excuse me, I hate to state the obvious but since the chances of a boy being molested by a priest in any catholic church in the world runs as high as 98%, has it occurred to anyone that it might be a better idea to start putting adults in these positions? Or are we supposed to keep pretending that this isn’t happening?
This above comment is ABSOLUTE NONSENSE, “chances of a boy being molested by a priest in any catholic church in the world runs as high as 98%”!?!?!?!?!?! @rpsa: For your information, the best available data reports that 4 percent of Catholic priests sexually violated a minor child during the last half of the 20th century with the peak level of abuse being in the 1970s and dropping off dramatically by the early 1980s. No empirical data exists that suggests that Catholic clerics sexually abuse minors at a level higher than clerics from other religious traditions or from other groups of men who have ready access and power over children (e.g., school teachers, coaches), in fact, the percentage of Catholic Priest who have abused children is much lower in comparison to school teachers. These evil acts perpetrated by Priests have been wholly exaggerated due to the frequent media reports, giving the general public the impression that ALL, if not MOST Catholic Priests are horrendous and despicable child-abusers, this is simply not true, as proven by the statistics provided above.
I hope one day we may all meet in the everlasting happiness in Heaven with our Lord.
Petrus