The following comes from an April 16 press release from SFCatholic.org.
In the wake of an unprecedented public attack on San Francisco Catholic Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone by a group of individuals who paid for a newspaper ad demanding that Pope Francis remove Archbishop Cordileone from his post, a grassroots movement has formed to defend the archbishop and show support for his efforts to ensure that teachers in Catholic schools remain faithful to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. They have launched a website, SFCatholics.org, to demonstrate support for Archbishop Cordileone.
“It’s truly astonishing that a group of self-proclaimed ‘prominent Catholics’ has become so self-absorbed that they believe they can demand that the Holy Father remove an archbishop because he refuses to sacrifice teaching Catholic values to children in our Catholic schools,” said Eva Muntean, who helped organize the group SFCatholics.org. “These are Catholic schools, built by the Catholic Church, funded and subsidized by the contributions of ordinary Catholics giving their pennies from the pews over the generations, and we have a right to expect when we send our children to Catholic schools, they will be taught vibrant authentic Catholicism. We stand with Archbishop Cordileone and support his leadership.”
Muntean said that thousands of Catholics have already signed grassroots petitions in support of Archbishop Cordileone and that SFCatholics.org will work with those individuals to launch a public communications campaign in support of the archbishop. SFCatholics.org is an independent grassroots organization and has no affiliation with the Archdiocese of San Francisco or with Archbishop Cordileone.
“The newspaper ad is a slur on a good and decent man who has devoted his life in service to others. It grossly misrepresents the position of the archbishop on critical issues, attempting to suggest that he is at odds with Pope Francis. He is not,” Muntean said. “Both Pope Francis and Archbishop Cordileone believe in the teaching of the Catholic Church on marriage, life, and human sexuality. In fact, just a few months ago the archbishop attended the Humanum event in Rome sponsored by the Vatican in which Pope Francis addressed leaders of the world’s religions on the importance of preserving marriage and the universal truth of the complementarity of man and woman in marriage. These two Catholic leaders are on the same page.”
Muntean said that SFCatholics.org has planned a family picnic event on May 16th in Little Marina Green to show support for Archbishop Cordileone.
“Some people may disagree with the teaching of the Catholic Church on sensitive subjects, but nobody should question the motivations or integrity of an archbishop who simply wishes to ensure that children who attend Catholic schools receive an authentically Catholic education,” Muntean said.
Praise be Jesus Christ. Its nice to read positive news too on good Catholics standing up for this holy Archbishop and speaking up. A nice way to start my day. There needs to be a balance and we need to magnify the good, so as to encourage others as well.
Have you all signed the petition for Archbishop Cordileone ?
https://www.sfcatholics.org/petition.html
“Ordinary Catholics ” should be FAITHFUL and TRUE CATHOLICS. God bless all those who show support for Archbishop Cordileone, and may God protect and preserve Archbishop Cordileone from all those evil doers whose master is Satan.
FAITHFUL and TRUE CATHOLICS adhere to Sacred Scripture and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, second edition in entirety.
(That is why these are under attack by the sodomists as well.)
This is how you can tell if someone is really a Catholic, or an imposter.
Amen to that Father Karl.
Amen to that penny. God bless you.
Some people (on the other side) think that they are the majority…….
NEWS FLASH…….WE’RE HERE AND WE’RE THE REAL CHURCH MILITANT, AND WE WILL DEFEND OUR WONDERFUL AND TRUE SHEPHERD OF AN ARCHBISHOP FROM YOU, WHO SAD TO SAY, ARE CINO’S!!!! Catholic in Name Only.
Yes Elizabeth this is the true Church militant. Praise God. The true lay faithful we dont often hear about. They are faithful to Christ and His church. We are everywhere. Yay. Praise be Jesus Christ. God bless these faithful souls.
Who are these self appointed arrogant Catholics to think that they can speak for me. What gives them this right. The doors in the Catholic Church swing both ways. If you are not happy, leave. No one is holding you back. And remember when you start speaking for others and pointing fingers, you have four fingers pointing back at you.
I neglected to say in my first post, these so called “Catholics” are Catholic in name only. To be a Catholic, you follow the example of our Lord and Savior. Not
what makes you feel good. Read the Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic church and know what the Church is all about. God Bless Archbishop Cordioleone and keep him in your prayers daily.
Deo Gratias!
Our Lord has given us a precious gift in the Lion-Hearted Archbishop Cordileone!
May Our Lord bless him and protect him!
Archbishop Cordileone has been and remains in my regular prayers.
Cafeteria Catholics, those who do not wish to follow the Church’s teaching, are more like CONGREGATIONALISTS, who choose what they want to believe and who will be their leader. These modern day left overs from the Pilgrims have never been friendly to ecclesiastical authority and frequently termed Catholics “popish”, as they believe each one of their members is the proper authority. These people sound like the so called ‘Catholics’ who want to get rid of Archbishop Cordileone. Let us all pray that they never get their evil wish.
I think the following quote from the above article is extremely ironic: “It’s truly astonishing that a group of self-proclaimed ‘prominent Catholics’ has become so self-absorbed that they believe they can demand that the Holy Father remove an archbishop because he refuses to sacrifice teaching Catholic values to children in our Catholic schools,” said Eva Muntean.
I have read very often readers on this website post self-absorbed comments demanding for resignations and excommunications. How is this any different?
“promenent” Catholics – right!
Every Bishop gets slammed for doing this or not doing that – you just can’t win with some people!!! :(
Fairthful Catholics never slam a Bishop or Priest for adhering to Sacred Scripture and the Doctrine of the Faith (CCC), and the Code of Canon Law, and GIRM for the OF Liturgy.
Only Catholic HERETICS slam a good Bishop and good Priest.
The sweet sound of Catholics uniting to support their faithful shepherd is music to my ears. I had sent a thank-you letter to the bishop of my own diocese the other day thanking him for his faithfulness in ensuring Catholic schools stay true to Church teaching because he had done the same thing here in Ohio, as did the Archbishop of Cincinati. I doubt any of you heard about it because apparently no one is rich enough to buy a full- page newspaper ad to complain! I’m kidding! ;)
….I read something about this online the other day, Dana. Excellent development. That said, I’d imagine reporting “too much” on what’s going on in Ohio would only serve to communicate a growing “no-duh” toward supporting the logic, at the very least, of requisite truth in advertising. That is having Catholic Schools actually operate as Catholic Schools.
Since Ohio is in the heartland/flyover country – that could really do damage to the left by waking up the sleeping giant that comprises the majority of the country instead of the more flashy and vocal folks from either coast who like to portray themselves as true representatives of the faith, etc.
Perhaps a cross-pollination “celebration” article could be written and plastered all over California to bolster the reality that many Catholics want to remain Catholic. Should you call Michael Savage or should I??
Ha. You, definitely, Ann. (I’m fine on stage but loathe any public speaking…even on the telephone. Introvert all the way) Also, don’t buy into the liberal nonsense of “fly-over” land. They fly over California and New York as well. Hollywood is chock-a-block full of Ohioans Two of the most liberal colleges in the country are here, alas. Maybe we’re considered hayseeds because Midwesterners tend to reject pseudo- sophistication and phonies. At least, we used to! But you’re so right…people need to know that many bishops are faithful to Church teaching but the liberals suppress that, don’t you think?
You sound just like my kids, husband and myself, Dana. Fine “on stage”, one can adopt a persona there, but introverted the remainder of the time, which is most all the time. Makes for insightful artists, however, not a bad trade :)
That is so amusing, Ann…but a nuisance if either of us is called to speak to the masses. Yes, insightful is our middlename, right? But, public speaking’s not our game.
…that’s why we’re told in Scripture not to worry what to say, for when the time comes, it will be given to us! I’m getting all serious, but Fr. Gruener recommends prayer to Our Lady whenever we are hit with questions and/or the need to speak about something. If you’re unsure, you won’t be if you rely on her. The words will come… and they do :)
God bless. I’m glad your sabbatical is over!
‘but a nuisance if either of us is called to speak to the masses.’
Get ready Catholic ladies… you never know when that specific suffering will be requested of you or when a public speaking duty will call. Start extra polishing up those already beautifully worded performances for God. You will both do very well, I am sure. The first discussion topic will be…’Catholic women saints had no need of the limelight’ but they certainly had a great love and a great desire to charitably uphold what is TRUE! Your Invited guest co-speaker will be Michael Savage. : >)
I’d love a panel discussion w/Michael Savage and select CCD posters…. no limelight.
Dinner party apostolate with a hidden camera, but only if you’d come, too, Catherine :)
Ditto! Sounds good Ann!
As a deacon in another Californian Diocese, of course I support Archbishop Cordileone. When will these “influential catholics” understand that the Church is not a democracy and that “change” is not going to come by either begging Rome or trying to extort Rome by threatening to withhold “funds” from the diocese. Take your money elsewhere, if it comes with conditions, we don’t want it. The only condition that our Lord demands of us is to take up our cross and follow him.
I agree Dana! “The sweet sound of Catholics uniting to support their faithful shepherd is music to my ears.”
God bless you Archbishop Cordileone!
God bless Archbishop Cordileone!! I will attend the May 16th picnic!
Here is a lik to a petition in Support of the Good Arch-Bishop for the Faithful:
Petition by American Life League and LifeSiteNews in Support the Archbishop: https://www.lifesitenews.com/petitions/i-stand-with-archbishop-cordileone
“American Life League and LifeSiteNews believe that Archbishop Cordileone is simply doing his fatherly duty as the spiritual head of his diocese to ensure that Catholic students receive an authentically Catholic education.
Parents who send their children to Catholic schools have the right to expect that their children are being taught by teachers who, by the way they live their lives, won’t undermine their beliefs, or otherwise harm their children’s innocence.
ALL and LSN propose this petition and encourage all supporters of religious liberty and pro-life values to send a strong message supporting Archbishop Cordileone against this scandalous attack.
We might gripe, and in small amounts it is helpful to air one’s feelings, but our primary task is to pray, and then to pray more for the good archbishop. I do not live in the boundaries of the Archdiocese, but I encourage those who do to write to the nuncio and the Congregation for Bishops (addresses and titles can all be found online) firm but very polite letters expressing the joy and confidence that the archbishop brings to you and other members of the archdiocese and the unfortunateness of the letter published in the San Francisco Chronicle. Make sure to identify yourself as one living in the archdiocese. The last part may seem blunt and controversial, (and certainly should not be mentioned in any letter at all) but we do not want what happened to Bishop Livieres of Ciudad del Este, Paraguay, or to Bishop Oliveri of Albenga-Imperia, Italy, (both bishops who made errors but who were among the best in their countries) to happen to Archbishop Cordileone. We do not want even an apostolic visitor sent, like done unto the good Bishop Finn. The Holy See is no longer the support that is was under the reign of then Benedict XVI.
San Francisco continues to be a playground for Satan. It’s beyond me why Catholics continue complain about what goes on there. SFGate hates Catholic tradition. They emailed me a blasphemous photo on Easter Sunday. It was of two males wearing bras and circus makeup with the headline something like Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence at San Francisco annual Easter Celebration. They mocked Jesus in a ‘Hunky Jesus’ display. (I had promised myself not to open my email on Sundays but needed driving directions.) This annual circus takes place during the holiest seasons of Holy Mother Church in Dolores Park, a mere two block from the Dolores Mission. SFGate is proud to encourage perverse exhibitionists who continually ridicule, mock and spit at Our Lord. If I had school children I would stay away from San Francisco, period.
God Bless Archbishop Cordileone, truly he as a “Heart of the Lion”. We need more shepherds with this kind of courage and faithfulness.
How I wish that I could attend a public rally or demonstration in favor of Archbishop Cordileone. Unfortunately I am half a world away in Kaduna, Nigeria. I have known the good Archbishop since he was a priest studying canon law in Rome – him at the Gregorian and me at the Angelicum. I later worked for 22 years for the Diocese of San Diego and he was originally a priest of the Diocese of San Diego. Archbishop Cordileone simply wants teachers in the Catholic schools to teach as the Magisterium believes and teaches. At least I can pray for him and support him with my comments here and on Facebook. May God bless Archbishop Cordileone and grant him all of the graces he needs to continue his work as a faithful shepherd of the flock entrusted to him.
Mary jo thank you for your faithful comments. They are much appreciated. God bless you.
Pray for His Grace Archbishop Cordileone his battle is a lonely battle the devil is strong in San Francisco and hatred for His Grace and the TLM is well very vivid and open to say the least!! Vatican II swung open the doors not to a NEW SPRINGTIME as the modernists say, but opened the doors to let satan in as Pope Paul the VI stated just following the end of the council. Funny how anytime there is strong hatred and attacks by the modernists be it against Cordileone, Burke, Finn, Morlino, Sample, all of these Holy Bishops have one thing in common, they all are strong advocates of the Traditional Latin Mass, very very strange that these men are the targets or is it???????
Dear Janek, you are correct in your assumption about the attacks on all the above mentioned prelates, it is the Traditional Latin Mass the object of their hatred, the TLM is powerful that is why the Second Vatican Council could not destroy it. When all is said and done one man and one man alone will be raised to our altars in thanksgiving for holding firm and strong in his love of The Holy Mass and that man is Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre the founder of the S.S.P.X. I myself do not attend the chapels of the S.S.P.X. but had they not been such defenders of the TLM there would never be the F.S.S.P., Institute of Christ the King and The Franciscans of The Immaculate who with much sorrow have been destroyed by Rome and Bergoglio. The Fall synod is fast approuching us and I fear what will happen when it commences, myself I believe Bergoglio will open up a hornets nest and it will be a free for all. The Church will fall into schism and many will flee to our Orthodox brothers, to the S.S.P.X., S.S.P.V. CMRI, and other groups that still hold the Holy Faith, but this is what the devil wanted when Vatican II began. Save us o Lord from Rome for it has lost the Faith decades ago.
Well-stated, Romulus A. However, the howling from Legion will begin when you state so clearly the replacement of a God-centered liturgy with an expressly man-centered one, as was the original stated purpose (a “memorial meal”) of the 1968 Gen. Inst. Roman Missal (GIRM).
At least the contemporary pro-status quo Catholic should drop the mistaken notion that the Trad Latin Mass (“Tridentine”) started at 1578. Even the most recent version of GIRM (2014) admits now that the Mass of Trent was unchanged since the Mass of 1474, and was the same as the Mass of Innocent III (d. 1216) (cf. GIRM. n.7). So it is wrong to state the TLM was “created” at Trent, when in fact the Novus Ordo Missae was in reality created by the 1968 Commission on the Liturgy, and NEVER voted on at the Council by the Council Fathers.
Another factual bit: Ottaviani, whose famous intervention predicted exactly what Romulus Augustus describes, also notes that the Roman Canon is found in “De Sacramentiis”, dating from the 4th-5th C. AD. Is this authentic enough, or are we still believing that the TLM was a creation of those crafty Medeival monks?
The TLM Mass RUBRICS (and Vestments) do NOT date back to the Apostles.
You have admitted that in your post.
However the Sacrament of the Eucharist was instituted by Christ.
Get off your hateful kick, Steve Phoenix, it is getting old. You sound like a 3 year old fighting mine is better than yours. All you want to do is fight.
Some people can’t handle the truth.
The hatred is in your own mind, however. The facts, which are cold and unyielding, are causing the emotional reaction because you haven’t been told the truth, and hence you are angry about it.
V2 never, ever boted on the Novus Ordo Missae: Msgr Klaus Gamber attests to this in “The Reform of the Liturgy” (approx 1983). Gamber was a peritus and eye-witness at V2. He witnessed the Council Fathers ordering thousands of 1965 Roman Missals, with the TLM virtually intact, because “this was the Mass of Vatican II.” Are these facts hateful to you, o frightened Anonymous? Sorry: they are just facts you are carrying the emotional burden of rejecting.
By the way, as for the TLM “rubrics and vestments not dating back” argument: The Verona and Leonine Sacramentaries of ca. 6th-7th centuries contain nearly all the present Traditional Latin Mass prayers and propers, these being what the pro-status-quo Catholics call “Tridentine” Mass.
So, somehow that history and tradition is not sufficient, and does not go back to the time of Christ? Fascinating: prior to Vatican II, every Catholic who was a true Catholic believed the Mass (the TLM) went back to the time of Christ. It was a matter of dogma. How did this change?
Or are we accepting that somehow we “lost” our liturgy around 50 AD and didnt find it again ….until 1968? I think it was stolen by those crafty Medeival monks, or maybe that tricky Pope Damasus,
and we only discovered it again…in 1968!!! Huzzah!
Please watch this show in its entirety…it is soooo loving and good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbAZezVk5Gk#t=561
I would recommend it for EVERYONE!!
Steve Phoenix, I don’t know what you have been taught, but nowhere can I find documentation that the TLM RUBRICS and VESTMENTS went back to the time of the Apostles.
(Of course we are not speaking of the Eucharist – instituted by Christ.)
As an FYI, the same prayers that are said in the TLM EF Mass of 1962 for the most part are also said in the OF Mass of 2011.
Check it out before you continue to insert your foot in your mouth.
Another excellent link, Dana. Goes straight to the heart of the matter – why give Our Lord less just because it’s allowed?
To everyone–
I must invoke St. Godwin’s Law.
When the subject that started as something else becomes TLM vs. Novus Ordo the discussion has been sidetracked to the point of frustration on both sides (unless one is trolling, of course).
Or again, to try to obtain some “authenticity” to their search for pure and primitive rites, the Bugnini Consilium created the 3 additional “Eucharistic Prayers”—as if there were always alternative Canons to the Roman Canon. (There were not.)
Do our modern status-quo Catholics realize that the Eucharistic Prayer II, mistakenly attributed to S. Hippolytus (d.236 AD), is a modern forgery? It has nothing at all to do with some “Canon of Hippolytus” from antiquity. But this is still being told, as though to out-date the TLM with a “true, pure, primitive rite”—and it is a forgery by Bugnini from 1968.
Or, that all the Eucharistic Prayers II-IV drop the important record contained in the Roman Canon of the tradition they have received, the tradition of the Roman Martyrs and Popes (“John and Paul, Cosmas and Damian, etc..”) dating back to SS Peter and Paul, therefore, from Christ Our Lord Himself. What does this mean? When you break the record of tradition, instead of the tradition of SS Peter, Paul and the martyrs and saints, you can now fabricate a new tradition of Cardinals Marx, and Kasper, Danneels and Martini, Kung and Rahner and Congar, and all the fake neo-Pantheon now being worshipped around the globe.
You can slam the Eucharistic Prayers all you want, and you may not like how the Second Eucharistic Prayer rearranged the ancient text so that it more closely matches the progression of thought of the other Eucharistic Prayers (including the Canon), but you can’t change the fact that all the Eucharistic Prayers (I-IV as well as the others used in special situations) all invoke Mary, the Saints, and the Holy Spirit, and of course the sacrifice of the Cross. If they don’t reference these parts of salvation history, they don’t get approved. Simple as that.
Eucharistic Prayer II mistakenly referred to as “The Anaphora of S Hippolytus” is not from an ancient text of a Eucharistic Prayer at all. It is bogus: check it out with the experts.
I realize it is shocking to you to find out that this has been faked but read up on it: Msgr Klaus Gamber, Michael Davies, many others.
The only Canon (which means “an unchanging rule”, by the way) was the Roman Canon, proven to exist from AT LEAST the 4th-5th century. The late Card. Alfons Stickler stated that the reason the Canon was not written prior to this was the “disciplina arcani”, which means the Sacred Mysteries were memorized and never written, to avoid profanation and sacrilege.
If you want to know the cold hard truth, YFC, you are staring at it.
As for all the “new” Eucharistic Prayers (EP 2-4), this is tantamount admission to the fact that they have broken the tradition—not the “in communion with” prayers linking the new EP’s with the unbroken tradition coming from Peter & Paul, the apostles, the early popes (“Linus, Cletus, Clement, etc.”), the Roman martyrs and saints (“Lawrence, Chrysogonus,..Agatha, Lucy, Agnes, Anastasia, etc..”) which continues to today. Of course, as a concession, the Blessed Virgin Mary is mentioned—but Bugnini greatly diminished her appearance in the “New Liturgy”. Also, Bugnini dropped all the specific mention of the female martyrs and saints: I would think that that the pro-status-quo Catholic would note that as evidence of his misogynism as well (de-emphasis of BV Mary; deleting ALL the female martyrs in saints, who were always specifically named).
But that isnt the real issue: the real issue is that the new EP’s specifically broke with tradition, because they are a New Liturgy for a New Tradition and a New Church. That is why we are where we are today.
The “experts”. Gee, I thought the Pope was the expert. He’s the one who approved the eucharistic prayers, on the advice of his brother Bishops.
I checked it out with them. They are really OK with it. If you are putting your faith in other “experts”, then you may have strayed from the faith. Just saying.
Thank you again, Steve Phoenix for stating the realities of what lays behind the vermilion curtain. I for one rather appreciate your “kick” for accuracy, root causing, primary sourcing etc.
It is increasingly amusing to read the “foot in mouth” diversions used to attack truth and defend, not what one has learned, or what truly “is”, but only what one has been told. As if doubling down on policy is some new invention that folks haven’t already learned in other areas of life is rather foolish – especially when the “truth” always outs in the end. But folks still try.
Gotta love that whole advice from “brother Bishops” pass. With that kind of logic, I suppose we would have all fled into hiding with the Apostles at the Crucifixion. Or hung ourselves if we’d had the misfortune to have been initiated under Judas. And those who would stay with St. John would be derided as not going with the consensus and therefore causing division of the group.
Let’s be clear. There is a tradition of using the Canon. Most of it enjoys an ancient tradition. Going back to the 4th or 5th century. There have been some changes here and there along the way. We are all agreed on that. The council of Trent regularized the Canon so that the differences that had evolved in various parts of the western church could be brought into a single accord. It made no modification to those eastern Church liturgies which had always and everywhere not used the Canon. Eastern liturgies all the way up to the Great Schism were always known to be different, and nowhere challenged as heretical or problematic, even though they never used the Canon.
There is a difference between what is contained in Tradition, which is to say, that which is handed down from Christ and his direct apostles, and tradition, which are those parts of our spirituality in the West and – well, traditions – that may enjoy an ancient history but nonetheless are not connected with the mandates of Christ himself.
Or do you get that distinction?
Ah, this is progress, Our Fellow Catholic is starting to research (although on the internet) some of the actual facts about the truth of the TLM vs the New Mass “of Paul VI”. This is very good. Actual research books have no substitute, esp. not for the net. Try Gamber, Davies, Romano Amerio, R. De Mattei for starters..
However, some tweaks on the misinfo you’ve gleaned: Trent did not “regularize” the Canon: by def., the Canon (def., “an unchanging rule”), was the same before and after Trent (even GIRM 2014 version, n. 7) acknowledges that. GIRM 2014 FINALLY admits the Mass of Trent was the same at least as the Mass of Innocent III (d. 1216). Ottoviani’s reasearch (1965) showed the Canon was untouched from at least the 4th-5th cent. Cardinal Stickler observed that prior to that the Canon, and much of the Mass, “the Sacred Mysteries”, we’re memorized by the priest, called the “Disciplina Arcania”, to preserve them from pagan sacrilege, so revered was their content.
So, why propose the disconnect that prior ages of the Church would not so diligently and scrupulously guard the Sacred Mysteries, say from the 5th cent (if we now admit we are back that far), and wouldn’t somehow carelessly “lose” their tradition directly from Peter and Paul In Rome, before their execution in 64AD, a tradition continued on by “Linus, Cletus, Clement, Sixtus, Cornelius, Cyprian, Chrysogonus, and all the saints? All the evidence is right there before you: you are staring at it.
And here is another thing: up until about 1965, all true Catholics believed “The Mass”, that is, the TLM, was instituted directly by Christ and came down through the ages to us today. It is still on the Denzinger Index as an article of faith. What changed all that?
Read ( for some of you, the first time) “The Ottoviani Intervention”. The New Mass, as predicted by Card. Ottoviani, and Vatican II, did: what was previously without change and certain, now was attacked as “a Medieval accretion”. Today, virtually no one in post-Vatican II America believes the liturgy of the Mass actually came from Christ. Look to a changeable man-centered ritual for that cause.
Proverbs 24:16 – In modern day parlance, you can’t keep a good man down.
Don’t any of these Cardinals and Archbishops fear the Lord when they must answer for there actions??
Steve displays no sign of “hate” but great knowledge the Left loves to use the word hate to shut us down for they cannot have a civil disscusion about any issue, the TLM is one issue they cannot have a civil talk over, for they are so entrenched in the “man made” Novus Ordo dinner service.
Thanks, Janek, but I knew Romulus A. was going to get Legion howling. There is an intense hatred of the TLM. Makes one wonder why.
I love the TLM Mass.
But Janek and Steve Phoenix preach hatred of the other form of the Mass.
There are heretics.
There really is no need for such dramatic protestations (“I love —, but he hates that”..): no need to demonize others just because of the truth. In fact, I regularly attend the Novus Ordo Mass (though I always prefer the true traditional Latin Mass, because that is our true Legacy,as Roman Catholics—not this shallow imitation), but it is a liturgy which would have absolutely no meaning but for the TLM.
Instead, let’s just look at the facts: A very clever movement was afoot, with Bugnini’s Consilium at the helm, going back to the 1950’s. You can read about the research that has been developed about Bugnini’s tendencies, esp. his desire to diminish the Mass as oblation and as sacrifice, going back to the reformed Holy Week services of the 1950’s. Even Pius XII was duped by him to a degree. Paul VI was a career diplomat, and had little or no knowledge of the liturgy, and when such a “scholar” as Bugnini (along with Jungmann and Bouyer), spoke, he took his/their claims as fact. Rembert Weakland describes his part in the plot (see his autobiography, “A Pilgrim in a Pilgrim Church”) as he describes his efforts to influence Paul VI as he and Bugnini orchestrated the highly secret “Experimental New Mass” in Jan. 1968. These Masses were held at night on 3 occasions at night I need the Sistine Chapel—over one year AFTER the Council, because they knew the Council Father’s would have never approved the “New Mass”. We have the late Monsgr. Klaus Gamber’s word for it.
Steve I have kicked around that question around a million times what the intense fear or hatred is of the TLM, I myself don’t hate the Novus Ordo service its a fake and was made up by six protestant ministers and the Freemason Bugnini, it worships man the TLM is God centered.
“The Protestant observers did not participate in the composition of the texts of the new Missal.”
Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship July 4, 1976
And here is another thing: up until about 1965, all true Catholics believed “The Mass”, that is, the TLM, was instituted directly by Christ and came down through the ages to us today. It is still on the Denzinger Index as an article of faith. What changed all that?
Read ( for some of you, the first time) “The Ottoviani Intervention”. The New Mass, as predicted by Card. Ottoviani, and Vatican II, did: what was previously without change and certain, now was attacked as “a Medieval accretion”. Today, virtually no one in post-Vatican II America believes the liturgy of the Mass actually came from Christ. Look to a changeable man-centered ritual for that cause.
“The protestant observers did not participate in the composition of the texts for the new missal”. Yes, we know now that is a bald-faced lie. For one, Max Thurian certainly did, and admitted so.
This is a quote by Bugnini himself: does it ever not make you wonder why they had to make this assertion? A. Because they had to conceal the fact.
Janek, you obviously DO hate the order of mass as we celebrate it around the world today. Why pretend you don’t what does the pretense serve?
I find it most interesting how this conversation migrated from support of a man who seems to be a truly fine Bishop to a discussion of “heresy?” against certain forms of worship and vestment. I am a convert to the faith and admittedly claim no knowledge of the history being discussed here. I speak only from memory and not from scholarly research, but I recall nothing about Christ requesting or demanding any of the above mentioned prayers or modes of dress for His Eucharistic celebration. I do recall that he directed us to love one another, to be one as He and the Father are one and to celebrate the Eucharist in His memory.
Please remember what we are about! Please let us not be separated by our own pride and ego. God Bless you all in your search for true faith and God bless and strengthen all of our clergy, here and in Rome!
…being honest about they whys and wherefores in the Church as pertains to her liturgy and practice is a form of loving one another, Larry. For we are called to be one in Truth, not one in ambiguity or personal agendas, even if those agendas are masked by councils etc.
This is why the truly fine clergy are being attacked. And that is why these discussions devolve into what you are reading.
All well and good, Larry, but love of God is never an enemy of the truth, for remember our Lord also said that the truth will set you free.(John 8:32).
Also, Larry, it really does matter to carry on the tradition and institution that was received from Christ Our Lord, what St Paul says he gave on to us (cf. 1 Cor. 11:23), which was specifically about the Eucharist, or Missa, that was the command from Our Lord.
Jesus also makes it quite clear that His worshippers will one day worship at a divine liturgy which he will institute “in spirit and in truth” (cf. Jn 4:24), as he teaches the Samaritan woman at the well: her worship at Mt. Gerizim is not a true worship. He tells her of his forthcoming revelation of the institution of the Eucharist and the Mass, and it is foundational to true belief in God, His Father.
It was a red herring comment above about “rubrics and vestments” which are accidentals to the true liturgy: but the essential content does reveal that Jesus sacrifice is an expiatory eternal sacrifice for the sins of the living and the dead (cf. “Suscipe, Sancte Pater” prayer, traditional Latin Mass), which was deliberately cut from the New Mass of 1968. This is the fundamental content of all 4 Gospels in describing the sacrament of Jesus’ redemptive act of suffering and dying.
Duns Scotus (d. 1308) was vilified for teaching the Immaculate Conception—in fact, that is where we get the term “a dunce” from. Those who are afraid of the truth often get personal: it is of no account.
Finally: Duns Scotus (d. 1308) was vilified for teaching the Immaculate Conception—in fact, that is where we get the term “a dunce” from. Those who are afraid of the truth often get personal: it is of no account.
But Duns Scotus also taught about the Mass that we are “spectators at the Supreme Act of reparation of the Son before the Father” (my verbatim translation of the Latin): it is not a feel-good humanistic “meal”. Duns Scotus’ opinion of the Mass is diametrically opposed to modern theologians’ perspectives. But Scotus says we should be stunned to silence to witness what is happening. That is not usually the demeanor at your standard new liturgy event.
On the relationship between truth and love, don’t leave truth behind:
“Do not accept anything as the truth if it lacks love. And do not accept anything as love which lacks truth! One without the other becomes a destructive lie. ”
-P. John Paul II, Address, Canonization of Edith Stein, October, 1998.
If the homosexuals and their sympathizers want to remove the bishop for defending God’s laws and image, and for trying to get the homosexuals and their sympathizers to amend their lives and sin no more, then if these degenerates wish to pursue their course of offending God and not behave like Roman Catholics are suppose to, then the homosexuals and their sympathizers should leave the church and stop corrupting it. Taking a quote from the Holy Bible, it might be better if they were to tie a millstone around their necks and be drowned in the depths of the rough sea in Sin Fransicko Bay.