Apparently they never give up. Some bishops want “to see the Extraordinary Form of the Roman rite explicitly suppressed, or subject to further restrictions,” says Una Voce in a statement released on July 4th. These advocates for the older use of the Mass apparently think those bishops might get what they want.
Those bishops shouldn’t want that, and they most definitely shouldn’t get it. To restrict — to continue to restrict and discourage — the Extraordinary Form would be a pastoral and evangelistic failure. To do anything other than encourage its use and let it expand would subvert the Church’s work in the world. And it would be pointlessly cruel as well, to faithful Catholics who deserve the Church’s solicitude.
I am not a traditionalist. I have been to just three Latin Masses in my life, one of those when I was still an Episcopalian. My family goes happily to a parish whose Masses would leave my traditionalist friends waiting in pain for the final blessing. I cheer Francis and don’t accept the traditionalists’ hostile reading of the Second Vatican Council. I’m not writing a brief for traditionalism, though I am moved by the example my more traditionalist friends give of serious and sacrificial faithfulness.
Still, I think the Church will only do good by unfettering the Extraordinary Form completely. Letting priests and parishes who want to celebrate it as the Extraordinary Form do so will have pastoral and evangelistic effects that we will not get in any other way.
Benedict’s Summorum Pontificum did so in law, but not so much in practice. Bishops and chanceries have many ways to suppress the rite when they want to suppress it, and many (apparently most) bishops in Europe and America did. Now there are rumors Rome may retract or limit Benedict’s permission.
A parish not too far from us has just approved what will be only the second regular Sunday Latin Mass in the diocese. Only the second. This parish has long offered one for holy days of obligation and special occasions, but had to work up to having one on Sunday. Other priests have floated the idea of offering one in their parishes, but the diocese let them know that never mind what Benedict said, they should not do that.
Why they suppress it is a question. The point I take away from listening to their claims is the opposite of what they intend: they show that there really is no downside to offering the Latin Mass much more widely.
The apologists for suppression claim that the people who want the old Mass are divisive. If that is true, and it is sometimes, the obvious answer is to remove the reason for their alienation. Extend to them the care, and the concessions, you extend to other marginal groups. Some will remain cranky and disgruntled, but the Church has room for the cranky and disgruntled.
The apologists also claim that only the very old and maladjusted young people want it. That’s wrong as a matter of fact, but even if it were true, why not give the elderly (who deserve our deference) and the maladjusted (who deserve our care) what they want and need? It hurts no one and it clearly helps many.
Judging from my own diocese’s experience, the spread of the Extraordinary Form will only help, pastorally and evangelistically. My diocese is an aging, shrinking diocese, with many people who’d happily return to the ritual practice of their childhoods. Strikingly, and even more importantly, many middle-aged and even more younger Catholics want the older form of the Mass as well.
If you want to see a lot of young families, and especially a lot of children, and names you would recognize for their work for the Church, you would want to go to Most Precious Blood of Jesus, the Latin Mass parish run by the Institute of Christ the King. (Or to the Oratory, which does much the same thing with the Ordinary Form.)
Many of my younger Catholic friends, single people or young parents in their thirties and early forties, don’t identify with traditionalism, but they do love the Latin Mass. Many converts have found it the way into the Church. And — against the stereotypes — for good reasons. (People who know only the stereotypes would be surprised at how wide a political and cultural range the younger Latin Massers cover.)
As Una Voce’s statement says: “The growth of interest in the traditional liturgy is not due to nostalgia for a time we do not remember, or a desire for rigidity: it is rather a matter of opening ourselves to the value of something that for most of us is new, and inspires hope. Pope Francis has characterised the ancient liturgy in terms of a ‘sense of adoration’, we can also apply his words to it: a ‘living history that welcomes us and pushes us forward’.”
Those who want the Latin Mass “only wish to be part of that ‘great orchestra’ of ‘unity in variety’ which, as Pope Francis said, reflects the true catholicity of the Church.”
The Mass and the piety that goes with it give many Catholics what they don’t otherwise find in the other institutions in their lives, including other churches: a solemnity and reverence, an objectivity, a stability, a tangible signal that what they are doing is unique, and of Divine origin.
That’s now important in one way the older and more comfortable (like bishops and chancery officials) don’t always understand. A lot of younger people, and increasingly the middle-aged, suffer the financial insecurity of a gig economy recovering from a pandemic. Many suffer other instabilities, in their families and communities. The future can feel more like a threat than a possibility. The culture itself preaches chaos.
They come to the Latin Mass for healing. Not just that, of course, but its solemnity and objectivity and distinctiveness give it a special cultural power. From what I can see, increasing numbers of older people do as well. When life sends you reeling, you’ll look for a place with a center, a place not just to rest but to orient yourself.
That rest and orientation the Latin Mass provides for them in a way the Ordinary Form doesn’t. Perhaps it should, but it doesn’t, and it won’t. The Latin Mass has a special pastoral power the Church should deploy. And it will provide the same blessings for a great many others who are looking for the same thing, including people now outside the Church. The spread of the Latin Mass could have a powerful evangelistic effect. If, that is, it were more widely available.
The above comes from a July 6 story by David Mills, Senior Editor (US) of The Catholic Herald.
Getting rid of the Extraordinary Form (EF) only makes sense if the EF is harmful to souls. If it’s good for souls [as it clearly is in many cases], why would any bishop want to get rid of it?
Except it’s not good when the TLM community is a thinly veiled schismatic community that rejects Vatican II.
If you’re talking about SSPX, I agree with you because they’re in schism. If you’re talking about FSSP and the Inst. of Christ the King, I completely disagree. My contacts with the priests and laity of FSSP have been completely Catholic. My observations also comport with logic: If a member of FSSP wishes to leave the Church, SSPX is waiting for them in open arms.
FSSP getting kicked out of Dijon, France for refusing to celebrate the Novus Ordo chrism Mass with the archbishop. Some FSSP are SSPX at heart.
What you mentioned about the FSSP in Dijon is nothing compared to the Church in Germany which is flirting with true schism with some bishops even giving Communion to Lutherans and blessing gay sex relationships.
Shall we slander the entire non-Trid Church because of the actions of a few in Germany?
FSSP are the SSPX priests who worked with Rome to return to the Church when the head of SSPX was to be excommunicated for ordaining bishops contrary to the command of the Pope.
Get over it.
why would any bishop want to get rid of it? Answer: The ones who wont to abolish it are hate filled progressives (like Anonymous) who fear the Faith as handed down by our forebears. Deep down they know their revolutionary ideas and the “new springtime” has failed on a monumental level. They resent the fact that younger folks with large families appreciate the TLM, and have the the “reforms” pathetic, banal, and contrary to Catholic Identity, which has itself been obliterated by the liberals. Let the liberals call the TLM and those who attend it “divisive” yet never once have the consider the destruction they unleashed on the Church changing everything from the liturgy, the music, even parish architecture both inside and out. Never once has it entered their narrow minds that they are real dividers.
Vatican II got rid of the old Mass. It’s clear the council fathers intended for the church’s liturgical rites in use in 1962 to be revised and replaced. You might not like what resulted, but that was clearly Vatican II’s express desire. I’m not making it up. Read the Constitution on the Liturgy. It’s chock full of statements about how liturgical practices and rites are to be changed and replaced.
Continuing to celebrate the 1962 Missal is trying to erase Vatican II. That’s exactly what this is about. Erasing Vatican II. By people who are afraid of modernity and want to live in a time capsule and celebrate a museum Mass that people don’t participate in. The Catholic Amish.
Vatican 2 said nothing about abolishing the TLM.
That’s right. The modernists wanted everyone to believe it had been abrogated, but as Benedict XVI confirmed in Summorum Ponitificum and what “traditionalists” maintained all along, it had never been abrogated.
Everyone understood the TLM was replaced by the Novus Ordo. It didn’t have to be abrogated by any other act. It was replaced. Get it?
No.The New Mass certainly did not “replace” the Tridentine Latin Mass. The Tridentine Latin Mass can never be abrogated, abolished, nor forbidden. There is no theological basis for that. Read “Quo Primum” by Pope St. Pius V, and go from there. Get a good ecclesiastical education before you write anything.
The post of July 12 at 9:30am was from me, “Anon.”
The “Anonymous” post of July 12 at 9:30am was from me, “Anon.”
Well I’m glad you cleared that up. Now it all makes so much more sense.
Anon., where did you get your ecclesiastical education? Not being a smartie; really want to know.
Amish? Wonderful! All America used to live just like the religious, agriculturally-based Amish, before the modern era– and everyone went to church! Everyone– most were immigrants, like the Amish– either lived on a farm, or had relatives who had a farm (me, too)– and made by hand, all their own furniture, clothing, and all necessities of life. Or else, bought things from a neighbor, who had a small specialty business. Christianity began disintegrating with Modernism. Urban life in big cities, in which Modernism is deeply incubated– makes people very, very sick, mentally and physically. Big cities like New York City, Chicago, San Francisco, and Los Angeles are places where Satan rules, and evil, ugly, Godless, dehumanizing Modernism thrives– and kills people. So– many people, today, are escaping these evils, for a better way of life– back to a wholesome, traditional, agriculturally-based, small community, with good Christian family values. With the home, family, and church as the center of life. And homeschooling, too. A massive, 600 acre, traditional Catholic community, “Veritatis Splendor,” is being built near Tyler, Texas, in the Diocese of the wonderful Bishop Strickland.
Vatican Ii did not get rid of the “old” Mass although you may have been told that. There is nothing wrong with using the 1962 Missal (the extraordinary form of the Roman Rite).
There are people in error who attend both forms of the Roman Rite.
If you don’t like it, too bad. People are free to choose that form of the Rite. They are free to choose their spirituality and the means of expressing it.
Don’t be such a totalitarian.
Downvoters are ignorant. Vatican II got rid of the old Mass. Just cuz you don’t like the truth don’t mean it ain’t true.
Liturgical reform was happening before Vatican II. The revised Missal is the same Mass. It is the same rite.
I’ve got a question for you: Why did the Council Fathers feel the need to revise the liturgy?
Answer: Because the Council wanted greater participation consistent with the dignity of the baptized. They wanted greater participation, in part, because the rank-and-file Catholic was no longer participating in a meaningful way at Mass and was growing staid.
Today, however, the TLM, is not attracting the rank-and-file Catholic. Rather, it’s attracting those who seek a closer relationship with God through a more meaningful, transcendent liturgy. They attend the EF because the OF is not sufficient for them.
The Council Fathers were rightly concerned about the spiritual state of the Church. The TLM addresses an important and contemporary spiritual need in the Church. To get rid of it would be against the true spirit of Vatican II.
Please read,”A Voice in the Wilderness”by Archbishop Carlo Maria Vigano.It is a well reasoned,reasearched,and accuratly footnoted and referenced tome dealing with the ultra liberal voices and powers in the Catholic Church.
If the Ordinary Form were celebrated worthily, it would trounce the TLM in popularity. The only appeal the TLM has now, which is exaggerated, is because most Novus Ordo Masses are appalling. There are some Catholics who use the TLM and Summorum Pontificum as cover for their rejection of Vatican II and the post-conciliar Church, however. The reformed liturgy celebrated well beats the TLM celebrated well every time, and that’s as the Church has intended since Vatican II. The reason more parishes aren’t celebrating TLMs is because the Church is already pretty much at peak TLM saturation. There’s no more demand for it.
“If the Ordinary Form were celebrated worthily, it would trounce the TLM in popularity” ba ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ….
I don’t disagree…no TLM where I am but there is a monastic NO community that has a very robust intellectual tradition that these 20-40 somethings are flocking to. In fact, they’re ‘poaching’ these kids to their monastery from local parishes. Bunch of old guys that have evening lectures, frequent confession, adoration and the like that touches the core of these young souls in a soul-less culture. If these bishops had any idea how simple it was to unleash a run away freight train for the faith of Christ.
But we’ll just have to wait…praised be to God it will be in my lifetime.
Thank you for your comment. I have an excellent FSSP parish nearby, but I rarely attend because of some minor, cosmetic details that have more to do with convenience than anything else. As you noted, the Ordinary Form can be quite transcendent if it’s done correctly and with proper care.
The OF problem has much to do with poorly formed priests who don’t have the spiritual and intellectual equipment or who don’t have a sufficient care for souls to truly make the OF sing.
Nope, the New Mass has huge theological problems– Protestantism and humanism, man-centric, instead of God-centric. Protestant Ecumenism and erasure of Catholic Identity is the whole problem. If you are highly-trained in Church music and liturgy, it hurts all the time, to see the true Catholic theology “revised” and “smashed” to death– in the New Mass. Protestants, I am sure– are not stupid enough to destroy their own cherished identity and deeply-held beliefs! God help us! Anyway, I don’t want to sound too mean! Christ is present, regardless, in both forms of the Mass– and that is important.
Which Protestants are you sure would not destroy their identity and deeply held beliefs?
Thank you for acknowledging Jesus’ Presence in the Mass.
For the record I hope Francis says no to the old Latin Mass anymore. 50 years after Vatican II it’s time to just get on with the new Mass and put the old ways behind us. Stop clinging to what Vatican II replaced. Don’t like that? Then go to schismatic SSPX or some other sect. We’re Catholic. We’re one. We’re the Church. Don’t divide the Church at prayer.
And don’t bring up the felt banners, big puppets, rainbow vestments and whatever else people make up about the new Mass. Just go to the Mass that God’s Church has said is the way to pray now.
In a nutshell, your opinion boils down to “it’s time to get over it – Let’s move on.”
One problem with this view is that it doesn’t take into account that the salvation of souls are at stake. It also doesn’t take into account the serious flaws of the OF in practice. Also, for the record, Vatican II authorized the changing of the TLM: It did not approve the current OF. And, in fact, the OF is not in full compliance with Vatican II.
Pssst…. SSPX says “come on in, the waters just fine”.
“And don’t bring up the felt banners, big puppets, rainbow vestments and whatever else people make up about the new Mass.”
Why not? I’ve never run in to any liturgical abuses at a SSPX Mass. Much worse at my local NO.
” Just go to the Mass that God’s Church has said is the way to pray now.” huh? I’ll leave that one go for now.
The problem with the SSPX is that it’s not Catholic. Instead, I would recommend the FSSP and the Institute of Christ the King which are in full communion with the Bishop of Rome.
What an ignorant comment, Steve.SSPX not Catholic? There ain’t a FSSP or ICK within flying distance. Sheesh.
Your post wasn’t clear, but Catholicity is not defined through physical proximity. SSPX ceased being Catholic when Lefebvre was excommunicated for ordaining several bishops without papal permission. Benedict XVI started a process to bring them back into the Church, but this was never successfully completed. Francis tried to further Benedict’s work, but the SSPX continued to be resistive. Francis finally made an ambiguous declaration that the SSPX was in some sort of highly irregular communion. I didn’t understand Francis’s logic at the time for this. I now know that Francis, himself, doesn’t understand what he means when he makes these weird, ambiguous statements about doctrine, theology, synodality, etc. Therefore, the real status of SSPX, in truth, is found in the pre-Francis days.
I misspelled your name in an earlier post.
By the way, I don’t wish to downplay your predicament. I don’t know where you live, but there have to be options within an hour of driving distance: FSSP, ICK, or a real good OF Mass. I, myself, have rarely ever attended my local parish and have sometimes driven as much 45 minutes to attend Mass.
The SSPX have no canonical status in the Catholic Church.
Steve Seitz, I mistakenly gave you a thumbs up and should not have clicked on thumbs up or thumbs down. Most of us have no idea what to believe any more since we see Pope Francis say one thing and put in bishops and cardinals that back another. Some good bishops, such as Rene Gracida, have said from the beginning that Pope Francis was unlawfully elected. No one really knows what to believe any more. I just stick to the past catechism and pray for both popes and come what may.
I’ve also had issues with the thumbs. My biggest is voting once, but the thumb registers twice. :)
My comment about Pope Francis’s self-incoherence came from a Catholic World Report that I recently read. There have been two or three excellent articles from CWR that have provided insight into the thinking [or shall we say irrationality] of Francis.
It seems that Francis views this turbulence, fighting, and heresy flirtation as being part of a process that will be good for the Church. In my view, while this might be true at a microscopic level (i.e. for a university classroom, or a think tank, or a committee), it’s dangerous and suicidal at the scale of the Universal Church. If you’re interested, I’ve included a link to the article.
By the way, I’ve seriously questioned in the past whether it was lawful for Benedict XVI to resign. Why does Bishop Gracida think that the election of illegal?
Bishop Rene Gracida has a website, “Abyssum Abyssus Invocat/Deep Calls to Deep”, not to be confused with a rock group with the same name.
Bishop Gracida questions many things that Pope Francis has said that appear heretical and has questioned the politics that went on while Pope Francis was being elected, contrary to document put out by Pope John Paul II before he died. If you go to the website, make sure you click some of the links at the top.
Trying not to post so much. Not good for my eyes.
Thank you for the information about the bishop’s website. I’ll look into it.
Except no SSPX priest has faculties to say Mass, so every Mass is illicit. That’s a liturgical abuse.
SSPX priests can say Mass and the Catholic Faithful can attend. And go to Confession, too. Pope Francis said so, a few years ago. He hopes to someday reach an accord with the group. Right now they are not in communion with Rome, but Pope Francis said it is fine to attend one of their Masses. And go to Confession, too.
In 2017, Pope Francis said it is fine for Catholics to attend an SSPX Mass and go to Confession, too– and get married in an SSPX chapel, also, under the supervision of the local Bishop. But none of this must ever be done with any inclinations to separate oneself from the Vatholic Church.
Sorry, in my July 12 post of 7:17, I misspelled “Catholic” Church, in my last line.
Every SSPX Mass is a liturgical abuse. They are illicit Masses said by suspended priests.
No, SSPX Masses are approved by Rome. The Pope himself said so. And Pope Benedict lifted all the SSPX excommunications.
Did somebody in the SSPX tell you that? SSPX Masses are not approved by Rome. What would that even mean? Somebody is taking advantage of your ignorance of Church matters.
The excommunications of the 4 SSPX bishops were lifted. Every SSPX is a suspended priest. They are not supposed to be saying public masses.
Pope Francis has granted faculties to them to absolve sins in sacramental confession. I think that is the greatest act of mercy any Pope has ever done.
Read closely, Anonymous: the Pope said it was fine to attend an SSPX Mass. Get over your bigotry! You are only a little lay person with opinions. Christ is present in the Blessed Sacrament at the SSPX Mass. Respect that fact.
Can you cite a source for us to read closely.
Christ is present in the Blessed Sacrament at the SSPX Mass. Christ is present in the Blessed Sacrament at any independent chapel or community where a priest while suspended says Mass illicitly.
Please just cite your source.
Anonymous– where were you in 2017, when the Pope announced that any Catholic may attend an SSPX Mass or go to Confession, at an SSPX chapel– and even get married there. under the supervision of the local Catholic Diocesan Bishop? Just make sure you are not doing this with bad intentions to separate from the Catholic Church.
What I have found is that he extended faculties to them to hear confessions and if they can work it out with the local diocese to get a properly authorized Church authority to witness their weddings.
These are great acts of mercy.
It would never have happened before Vatican II.
When gay clerics are in near operational control of the Church and little men like James Martin are allowed to prance around while Faithful priests are attacked by the hierarchy, we are not one. When 70 percent of Catholics do not believe in the real presence, we are not, when over 50 percent of Catholics approve of sodomite marriage we are not one.
Hey, single people and young parents in their 30s and 40s love the Democrat Party too. If that’s your argument for keeping the TLM, then you need to be happy about the Democrat Party too.
Flag…category error and a false comparison… young parents in their 30’s and 40’s as a demographic are not outliers in progressive politics. Progressive politics would do fine without them. They are outliers in professing a religious affiliation and certainly within Catholicism which is in dire need of them and without them will find itself in desperate shape.
Progressive 30 and 40 somethings? Meh….orthodox Catholics? Any bishop worth is mitre ought to be looking very seriously into this phenomenon. And to say it’s just the Mass is to widely miss the mark. It is the teaching, catechesis, speaking events etc, outside of the Mass at those parishes that nourish the spirituality of these young folk that have been deprived of that their whole lives. Bishops pray psalm 61 all the time. If they haven’t figured this out by now, their successors will.
No one is trying to kill the Latin Mass. Bad title. Original title is “Free the Latin Mass, for the Good of the Church and Those who Need It”. It is an editorial written by someone who does not attend the Latin Mass responding to a petition by Una Voce to the Pope to uphold Summorum Pontificum. There have been internet rumors that Pope Francis was going to restrict the use of the Latin Mass.
This is what the Internet is good at. Making problems where none exist.
Well, this aged badly.
I was wrong. He did not kill the Latin Mass but he added more restrictions.
The word that you are looking for is abrogate. Let me help you out as you seem to enjoy changing your mind.
Abrogate = repeal or do away with (a law, right, or formal agreement).
Should I bother giving you synonyms? Cancel? Repeal?
Come now, sir or madam. Be honest.
And, in fact, your orignal assertioin is correct. He can’t kill the TLM. It will be here long after he is dead and judged.
All the animosity toward the Old Rite of Mass reveals the theological fault lines between the pre-Council and post-Council Church, and simultaneously puts the lie to Pope Benedict XVI’s claim in Summórum Pontíficum of “continuity” between the two Rites. As the 1969 Ottaviani Intervention clearly demonstrated, they have incompatible theologies — one God-focused; the other man-focused.
The fruits made manifest by both Rites tell us everything we need to know.
Yeah, the novus ordo masses have 99% of Catholics. All you need to know.
..0001% of the Catholic population has animosity toward the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.
Mark my words and mark this post. The high point of TLM has already passed. It’s on the wane.
There is no competition between the two forms of the Mass.
Visit some Trad websites and you’ll see that they hate the Novus Ordo. Or just read some Trad comments here, for that matter, and you’ll see there is competition.
All those poor, subjugated women in that pic. Veils? Today? Looks a lot like a burqa.
Young women have loved re-discovering the ancient Catholic tradition of prayerfully wearing a mantilla, scarf, or hat when entering a Catholic church, along with a pretty dress. They love to dress to honor Our Lord. Some have been led to religious vocations.
It is normal to revere the “greats” of thousands of years of previous history, who all went before us, and learn from them. And then, pass on this great treasure to our young. That is the way it works. Otherwise, our great country, religion, and civilization, will all fall into ruin, and descend into a Dark Age. Mankind will have to start over, as “savages in the jungle.” One must always respect, revere, cherish, and learn from our great forebears! All of the prelates and popes of the radical “Vatican II era” are now dead. Many went along with the extremely “radical” reform ideas of that day. “Radical” is not necessarily “good,” unless it is a means to greatly improve or end a bad situation– such as Pres. Abraham Lincoln fighting to end slavery. There are many new, younger, faithful, orthodox priests and bishops in the Church today, who love and respect the Church’s true teachings, and 2000+ years of ancient heritage and liturgy, and love the old Latin Mass, along with the New Mass. Someday, some of them will rise to positions of power in the Church, and will have different ideas from the era of the Vatican II Council Fathers. Someday, in a different era, the Church may call a new worldwide Council, with different ideas— and implement them. And in the end, Vatican II will just be another “Church historical event”– with dates and basic concepts listed on perhaps one page, in the history books. That’s the way it is. And regardless– Christ reigns, forever.
The Church was founded less than 2,000 years ago and Eucharist in Latin came after that.
No, Christ was born about 2100 years ago.
Many historians say that Christ was actually probably born around 6-4 B.C.
what is that, that all the women have on their heads?
These women are in love with Jesus and His Mother. Maybe you should go join the Gay Men’s Chorus, if you hate women.
He didn’t say he was a child molester.
Ever heard of a hijab?
Hijabs are worn all the time. Mantillas, hats, scarves and other Catholic women’s head coverings are only worn before the Blessed Sacrament while praying and are taken off when out of the Church, unless needed for protection from the sun or cold weather.
Do you object to women wearing baseball caps at a baseball game?
Those are not hijabs. They are veils. The circular ones are called infinity veils, they have no beginning and no end.
The Ottaviani Intervention was correct. The Vatican has been sadly “living a lie,” rejecting its own Catholic religion. I know the Council Fathers were well-meaning, but — oh, what a lie.
He retracted that intervention.
No, he did not retract it. Read the book.
“The Ottaviani Intervention,” by Cdl. Ottaviani and Cdl. Bacci was published in 1969, now out-of-print, perhaps, but nay be available at Angelus Press. You may not be interested in it nor understand it, anyway.
I found an out of print “updated” version by Father Cekada who was a sedevacantist priest. He died last year. May God have mercy on his soul.
Angelus Press has it. But that is not the end of the story. Pope Paul VI had it reviewed and it was not accepted. It was not written by Ottaviani. It’s main author was excommunicated.
The wikipedia page on it should be considered, although it can be wrong. Sources are cited.
You misunderstand. A large group of theologians wrotw the “Ottaviani Intervention” under Cdls. Ottaviani and Bacci’s supervision. Cdl. Ottaviani was nearly blind towards the end of his life. Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci were concerned about the too-liberal, questionable theilogical aspects of the Council and its New Mass. The “New Mass” text had a large group of theologians that quickly drew up its text, very radically different, very “ecumenized” amd “Protestantized,” under the direction of Abp. Annibale Bugnini, along with 6 Protestant theologians in his group. Some of those Protestant theologians later coverted to the Catholic Faith. And Bugnini later was sent far away to Iran, at life’s end, to serve as Papal nuncio there. Bugnini was a controversial figure. Of course Pope St. Paul VI rejected the “Ottaviani Intervention.” Sort of like what Pope Francis would do, if he formally rejected the recent “Dubia” of the four Cardinals This kind of stuff happens all the time, in the Vatican. In the end, the elderly cardinals let it go, under obedience to the Pope, and a letter appeared to be signed by Ottaviani’s secretary, implied obedience– Ottaviani was nearly blind, and the secretary took care of it. Later, Cardinal Ottaviani died in good graces with the Pope– but was always one of the strong orthodox theologians who never believed in the changes of the Council. Abp. Fulton Sheen relates Cdl. Ottaviani’s “always No” vote to everything of the Council in a humorous way.
The New Mass was very controversial. There were many prominent Catholics who did not agree with the Novus Ordo Missae– among them, St. Mother Teresa, Prof. Dietrich von Hildebrand and his wife, and St. Padre Pio. St. Pio refused to say the New Mass for theological objections– and also for reasons of old age. — The Vatican granted St. Pio permission to say only the old Latin Tridentine Mass, to life’s end. Although Catholuc clerics may have objections to certain things, there is a big emphasis on Solidarity, obedience, in the Church– so, it is typical to agree to do things in the spirit of solidarity and obeduence, even if they do not really totally agree with it– even the Pope. Pope St. Paul VI was in solidarity and obedience to the Church in Vatican II and the New Mass. This is typical. Then, if things in the Church change again, you will see the same thing– obedience to the new changes, in solidarity and obedience to the Church. That is the way it works.
Anonymous, the “Ottaviani Intervention” is past history, only for those interested in it. As you have no interest in an intellectual critique of the New Mass, done by many theologians in a big group, at the Vatican– it will not interest you. Instead, you may want to read the encyclicals and other writings of Pope St. John Paul II– which Pope Francis has tragically sought to degrade, dismiss and nearly erase. Best to seek always to just be a good Christian, and seek to do God’s Will in your life. That is the most important thing of all.
Pope Francis has not 1/10 of what his detractors say he has.
Are you old enough to remember the gravity of sin becoming greater depending on who you sin against.
Gossip about a stranger is less serious than gossip about a friend who trusts you. Gossip about family is worse. Gossip about authority figures especially the Pope, is graver still.
Myself, I would confess.
God bless you and lead you into all Truth.
Pope Francis is going to settle this. His new motu proprio revoking the TLM should be out in days or weeks.
If we have to go to catacombs we will but the TLM will endure and outlast you.
Pooe Francis is ill and in his final earthly years. He will “settle” nothing.
Sorry, I have a typo in my post of July 11th at 12:23 pm– it should read “Pope Francis.” Anyway, he needs our ongoing prayers for his recovery.
Don’t hold your breath. Pope Francis will not suppress the TLM, though he may add additional restrictions. More likely is that he will do nothing at all.
I invite everyone to experience the Mass in the Extraordinary Form that Worships our Lord “exclusively” – His Kingdom on earth as it is in Heaven. All hearts and minds (and eyes) on Him alone. Awesome!
The Lord is worshipped exclusively in the Novus Ordo. It’s the normal liturgy of the Church, after all.
No. There are many different kinds of Masses, in the Latin Rite Church and Eastern Rite churches. People with blind hate and bigotry in their hearts, do not worship the Lord at all.
Love to wear one of my pretty mantillas to the old Latin Mass. I have a collection of them from many decades ago, when I was young– and pretty hats, too. The ladies in the picture above, look so lovely. There are some wonderful new religious shops that sell pretty mantillas of various types, for women. The “infinity scarf” is one cherished style. Women always used to carry a mantillas or scarf in their purse, along with a Rosary, in case we wanted to stop by a church, or attend a Mass. We always wore dresses, and everyone dressed very nicely for everyday, in that era. People also used to stop and cross themselves, when passing a Catholic Church.
Thanks, Linda Maria.
The TLM and the TNO are simply two different liturgies with the same purpose and result. People who like to attend the Traditional Novus Ordo are not bad people and those that attend the Traditional Latin Mass are not evil people either. The TNO has been with us since the mid-60s. That’s a few generations, so it isn’t like it is new. Generations have known nothing different. That said, it is bad judgement on the part of the Bishops to “outlaw” the Latin Mass. Both forms of the Latin Rite Mass should be available if enough people want them. Mostly, milion upon milliions attend the TNO each weekend, and very few the TLM so the economics of time on the part of overworked priests doesn’t work in favor of saying a third or fourth Mass each Sunday.
A bitter irony that the Church we belong to recently “canonized” Paul VI, who all but destroyed the Traditional Mass.
Well, consider the fact that cononization is considered an infallible proclamation.
Canonization of a Saint means the candidate is declared by the Catholic Church to be in very close union with God, and deemed worthy of public veneration and prayers for intercession. Not all Saints are formally recognized in the Church. It takes a long process of inquiry and investigation, and proof of required miracles (and financial backing) for a holy candidate to fully undergo this process– and in the end, the candidate’s cause for Sainthood may not succeed. There are thousands of very holy people who have lived and died, who are not formally canonized as Saints. There are also different degrees of holiness among the Saints. A Saint is still a human being, not God— and can and will make human errors in judgment. And in the end– only God Himself knows the true Saints, and their degrees of holiness. As for Pope St. Paul VI– he suffered much, in solidarity and obedience to his Church. No one knows his most inner opinions and beliefs on things. After the Council, he tragically remarked, “the Smoke of Satan has entered the Church.” He said he “slept on a crown of thorns” each night, after the Council.
Patrick O’Brien, Pope St. Paul VI also gave the world his excellent 1968 encyclical, “Humanae Vitae.” He remarked, tragically, that “the Smoke of Satan has entered the Church.” Venerable Abp. Sheen said that the Pope suffered greatly, and “slept on a bed of nails” at night. The day that “Humanae Vitae” came out, I was with my sister in the National Cathedral in Mexico City. There was a lot of scaffolding, with workmen doing repairs. There was a lot of controversy between people of many different countries, visiting the Cathedral. Some were very rebellious to Christ. I knelt at the Communion rail and told Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament, that I loved Him, and would always be faithful to Him.
The encyclical of Pope St. Paul VI, “Humanae Vitae,” was trenendous! Total, courageous, authentic Catholic teaching! But many Catholics were tragically rebellious against the Lord because of it.
Agree with you on HV. I only “discovered” it after marriage and children. I found it to be a blue print for family life and fatherhood.
Why is canonized in scare quotes? You don’t believe it’s real?
The latin Mass deserves to be put in the dustbin of church history.
Looks like a lot of younger people who have been born and raised since the evil 1960s era, are very lacking in education, good manners, and Christian Morality. Many today, are very rude, nasty, rebellious, egotistical, ignorant, bigoted “know-it-alls,” extremely opinionated, instantly combative to people they do not even know, either in daily life or on the Internet. These “uncivilized” barbarians do not respect God and their fellowman. Like Lucifer, they are hatefully screaming, “Non serviam.” Even some who say they are “Christian” or “Catholic” are unkind and hostile to their neighbors. Ready to torch and burn down their neighbors’ good homes and churches, and eager to burn down all civilization. Satanic-led, “Marxist Youth,” ugly, rude, crude, quarrelsome, combative, hateful, uncivilized, no morals nor manners. Our Church and civilization badly needs good people with good manners and morals, who are kind, self-giving, caring to their neighbors, virtuous, humble, and deeply respectful of God.
The Tridentine Mass of 1570 has never been, nor can it ever be, abrogated, abolished, or forbidden. There is absolutely no theological basis for such a ridiculous thing. And the original text of the Novus Ordo Missae in the Missale Romanum– is in Latin. Vatican II officially declared that Latin is still the official language of the Roman Catholic Church.
Bishop Joseph Strickland of Tyler, Texas, celebrates both the New Mass and the Tridentine Latin Mass. He encourages everyone to go to both Masses. He is a wonderful Bishop, very orthodox and faithful. Very outspoken on the truths of our Catholic Faith. When the Pope said he would endorse “gay civil unions,” Bishop Strickland admonished the Pope, and then said, “now the Pope can fire me, if he must!” Funny! But Bishop Strickland is respectful of others, and hunble, when speaking the truth about the Catholic Faith. He does not wish to injure anyone, just to speak God’s Truth. I admire him greatly!
I don’t want to kill it, but I do think the church should prohibit it.
What irks me about the “New Mass” is that it is so protestantized. I don’t go to church to “fellowship” with my neighbors. I don’t want to shake hands with them or hug them or even kiss them. Get rid of that feature and I might not leave the “New Mass” feeling angry and cheated,
Agreed, and I’m not even cranky or old!
I get put off too when asked to extend the Peace of Christ to fellow congregants. it seems so un-Christian don’t you think? The next thing you know they will want us to love our neighbors as God loved us. Are you kidding? We must put an end to it. Can you think of anything else worse than wishing someone God’s peace? Really!
In monasteries, the monks live in a quiet, silent brotherly fellowship of spiritual love, in contemplative union with Christ. With only short periods each day, of recreation and conversation. A precursor to the life of God’s Heavenly Kingdom on Earth!
Bob one – For me, I have found that the sign of peace is a disruption and interuption to worship. Too often it devolves in to the preist going 5 rows deep after shaking hands and hugging all 27 EMHC’s. Not to mention the faithful walkng across aisles to slap aunt tillie on the back while aunt tillie is waving a peace sign to her pal 8 rows back. Bit of an exaggeration but not entirely incorrect. I have experienced simple shakes during daily Mass. Sunday Mass seems to be a social occassion for alot of folks.
I have no problem with wishing my brothers God’s peace.
Cranky– the Sign of Peace is ancient, it is in the Tridentine Mass, too (a short prayer said by the priest during the Fraction of the Host) and everyone is prayerfully kneeling at that time. Christ called us to love our neighbors in His Love. Especially at Mass, right before receiving Him, in Holy Communion. (Or, making a Spiritual Communion.) A “demonstrative” kind of human affection, running around hugging and kissing, like unruly kids– making a big, noisy disturbance in church— is improper, and unnecessary. We have to be respectful of God, in church, before the Blessed Sacrament. Many today, have not been taught their good manners, when in church! A church, the House of God, is a holy place– not like the crass, secular, dirty, noisy street.
The bishops have been trying to kill the True Mass for over 50 years now and still cannot do it!! Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm I wonder why?
This discussion seems a bit silly to me. Whether or not you can even attend a particular Form of Mass is geographically defined, so for thousands of Catholics the question is moot. I live in Oakland, where there is neither an FSSP nor SSPX within an hour driving distance, so it’s unlikely I will ever attend either. But the parish I usually attend offers both EF and OF. I call the TLM the Total Latin Mass, because our OF has all Latin responses, and could be called the PLM = Partial Latin Mass. I do not like to attend other NO masses, because many are so sloppy and ad hoc, full of applause and people who sit, stand, or kneel when they want to, following no ritual in particular. Disruptive and an occasion of sin, not worship.
Marian– The original Roman Missal for the New Mass is in Latin. Latin was declared to still be the official language of the Roman Catholic Church, at Vatican II. Then, we have Vatican-authorized translations of the Latin “Novus Ordo” Roman Missal, into all of the vernacular language– Spanish, Italian, English, etc. The vernacular translations are the norm for most parish use, but there are also many parishes today, that have the New Mass said– in Latin.
Of course the Traditional Latin Mass will always have the most comments, it show how powerful the TLM is compared to the “man made” Novus Ordo.
It is the same rite.
Same rite yes but it is night and day between them.
Word is that this Friday Pope Francis will issue his proclamation killing the Latin Mass. Look for it.
Oh its coming quicker than you think!! This Pope has made it his mission to destroy the TLM.
Buy the book The Reform of the Liturgy (1948-1975) by Annibale Bugnini and read it with an open honest and reasonable mind. I first heard about this book in 2010 from canon lawyer Ed Peters who states of the book: “his[Bugnini’s] encyclopedic account of the reform, albeit with some expressions of his own bias, is unsurpassed.” Shortly after I saw Dr. Peter’s statement, Michael Voris had aired an episode of his “Catholic Investigation Agency” show entitled WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. Several of Voris’ claims on that episode just weren’t sounding quite right, so I purchased Bugnini’s book. There happened to be one being sold for $12 that day, which was very fortunate as the ones I see being sold now are $100+. I’m really glad I bought it. Chapter 20 (p.277-301) entitled “Opposition” was my favorite part of the book. He talked about the early history of the organization Una Voce and the actions of some specific members. It looks like one can buy or check-out an electronic version of Bugnini’s book on various websites.
Thank you for the book recommendation. As for some of the claims of “CIA” not sounding right-yep.