The following comes from a Nov. 12 email to Cal Catholic.
The traditional Latin Mass has been discontinued at St. John the Baptist Catholic Church in Chico, the only parish-based TLM north of Sacramento in the entire diocese. Fr. Tim Nondorf published this letter in the bulletin:
“In 2007, our Church issued Summorum Ponificum, by which Pope Benedict allowed the use of the Tridentine Mass in an effort to encourage ALL people in the Catholic faith heritage to worship as ONE Body, His Church. The use of the Mass before Vatican II (using the missal, ritual and readings, from 1962) is now called the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. It always was envisioned as a means to serve a community that could support itself and inspire the local church, in and through this Mass form. For these most recent years, our parish has made an effort to provide a support for this form.
“And yet, despite the efforts of Fr. Blaise Berg, Fr. Michael Baricuatro, Fr. Al Kaster and myself, after four years, the community praying in the Extraordinary Form has not developed into a stable community, not only able to support itself in ministry and stewardship, but also at contributing to the parish as a whole. Recognizing this fact, I entered into a discussion with the Diocese regarding our efforts, and it was agreed that, in spite of our worthy effort, that we would end the Latin Mass here. Accordingly, the last Sunday-scheduled Extraordinary Form of the Mass will be on November 17th at 1pm. As was always the hope too, we hope (and want) our brothers and sisters who have celebrated the Mass in this form to now participate in any of our other six Sunday Masses a weekend. ”
– Fr. Tim Nondorf
There is much I could say about the contents of this letter, but prudence suggests restraint. However, without getting into specifics, I will say this: even in the best of times, when we had willing priests who had respect for this rite, there was never any effort on the part of the clergy to promote the Extraordinary Form to the rest of the parish, or even to educate people about it…. There was never any attempt to create or support an integral Catholic devotional life centered on this liturgy – or even an awareness that such a thing exists. There were few extra-liturgical events for the TLM community, and those few were all organized by the laity, though our priests did sometimes participate. In other words, the TLM was always treated as a pastoral concession to a tiny special interest group, with entirely predictable results. The latest administrative shuffle resulted in an extremely liberal priest who could barely disguise his contempt offering the TLM out of sheer obedience. Even minimal traces of Catholicism disappeared from the homilies and, tragically, from the ordinary discipline of parish life. We stopped attending months ago.
Chico has long been home to a small independent chapel, founded by early refugees from St. John’s, where the Latin Mass has been offered by various traditional priests over the years, including a priest of the F.S.S.P. a couple of times. Today, the St. Therese Chapel is seeking to affiliate with the S.S.P.X., which has thus far committed to sending a priest on the 1st and 3rd Sundays of the month. For the first time this chapel is now listed in the S.S.P.X. directory. The chapel is said to be in the process of turning its administration completely over to the Society, which is a very positive development. Otherwise, for Catholics in Chico, the nearest Latin Mass remains 1 hr and 50 minutes away in Sacramento – a long drive both ways, but worth every minute.
To read more, click here.
Why would turning over the parish to the SSPX be considered a “very positive development”? Leaving the Church for a schismatic group because you don’t have access to the rite you prefer is still schismatic (and, I believe, that’s a mortal sin) and means your participation in the Mass in either Form should not include receiving Holy Communion.
Make the drive. Remain in union with Christ’s Church!
The SSPX is not in schism, Jim. And it goes far deeper than what individuals ‘prefer.’ The same goes for obedience. Obedience in the mind of some equates to not legitimately questioning, seeking, and basically just accepting whatever comes even when it is in contrast to a well developed conscience.
So, do the reading, stop making the drive to that which is an occasion of sin in many cases, and remain in union with the Faith. Since the Holy Father has reminded us all that following the Catechism which instructs us to follow our conscience, then that is what these folks should do.
Who are we to judge?
Ann, please excuse my ignorance, but if the SSPX is not a schismatic group, then how are they classified?
Tracy, officially the clergy of the SSPX are suspended: i.e., they are not authorized to offer public ministry or sacraments. That is the long and the short of it. They are not excommunicated. There are no sanctions on the laity, who may fulfill their Sunday obligations at SSPX chapels. But the SSPX operates “illicitly” in the eyes of Rome. However, anyone who is really interested in understanding the situation needs to look into the argument of “ecclesia supplet”- the Church supplies the grace and jurisdiction when a crisis makes normal ecclesiastical channels unavailable. It’s a complicated subject, and I’m not sure about it myself, but to be fair, would-be critics need to address their argument directly.
Thank you for putting what I’ve been trying to say so succinctly, Jim. “…It’s a complicated subject, and I’m not sure about it myself, but to be fair, would-be critics need to address their argument directly.”
Correction, I meant to thank Jeff. Thank you, Jeff. Jim has further to go.
Novus Ordo and Tridentine Mass devotees would be better off attending the Anglican or Western Rite Orthodox churches. Their liturgies are far superior to anything the Roman Church has ever had.
Many Anglican churches today have a large number of former Roman Catholic priests with valid orders and their Anglican eucharistic liturgies are most definitely VALID.
If the issue of “validity” is that important to you from a Romish perspective, then we’ve come a long way baby since the days of Pope Leo XIII and his erroneous encyclical of 1896.
“… as not in full communion,” is my understanding Tracy. But you may want to visit their website and compare that with what is handed down from your diocese on the matter. Hope that helps!
Thank you both Ann and Jeff for your explainations. If the clergy of the SSPX are “suspended” and the SSPX is “illicit”, then how can anyone here suggest that they are worthy of attending, no matter how beautiful their “Mass” appears? Now, I do understand the argument of “ecclesia supplet”, but wouldn’t this better apply to those in difficult situations like Communist China, and the likes, whether in the present or the past?
“If the clergy of the SSPX are “suspended” and the SSPX is “illicit”, then how can anyone here suggest that they are worthy of attending, no matter how beautiful their ‘Mass’ appears?
Mass does not belong in scare quotes, Tracy. The SSPX masses are valid, true masses, at which the miracle of transubstantiation takes place and through which communicants receive an increase of sanctifying grace. Rome does not deny this. Also, please keep in mind that the problem is much, much larger than the TLM itself, but the whole atmosphere of modernism in the Church and especially at the parish level.
“Now, I do understand the argument of ‘ecclesia supplet’, but wouldn’t this better apply to those in difficult situations like Communist China, and the likes, whether in the present or the past?”
Situations of persecution like that in communist China are more cut and dried, to be sure. But the SSPX argue that the present circumstances in the Church present a crisis so grave that the salvation of souls is at stake – the salvation of souls being “the supreme law in the Church” (Canon 1752). Insofar as submission to the local ordinary requires participation in parish life where the Faith is, at best, radically watered down, and at worst where heresies are rampant and worldliness is the norm, then the SSPX position would seem to be entirely plausible.
It’s not a matter of appearance, Tracy. And the argument of “ecclesia supplet” could well apply when one considers the temptations against the Faith offered in myriad Novus Ordo parishes.
Jeff they are valid, but illicit. You know this but you ignore the significance and brush it aside as though it means nothing.
Why would you receive an increase in sanctifying grace? If you take communion from the SSPX, you are in effect breaking your communion with the Catholic Church. You can’t be in communion with both. The validity of the Sacrament comes from the valid ordinations of the priests. But because they are suspended and cannot licitly confect the sacrament and are doing that which offends the Lord, why would there be any grace for the recipient? If the recipient is going there because they have rejected the Church, that would be a grave sin so they should not be receiving communion at all. It would be wise to contact your bishop and find out for sure.
Thank you, Cardinal Anonymous. Now we all know what’s what.
Ann, if it is not about the “appearance” of the Mass, then could you, or someone else explain to me why there are many Pius X congregants who seem to have no problem attending the EF Mass at a Roman Catholic Parish one week and then attend the Pius X Church the following week? They go back and forth as if there is no difference. (Even this article seems to confirm this) Another question I have is do Pius X clergy consider Pope Francis their Pope? If not then who is their Pope?
Tracy, you wrote:
” … could you, or someone else explain to me why there are many Pius X congregants who seem to have no problem attending the EF Mass at a Roman Catholic Parish one week and then attend the Pius X Church the following week?”
I call is the sensus fidelium: Catholics naturally want to worship where the Faith is lived and taught. Most laymen have neither the time nor the inclination to sort through complicated ecclesiastical politics.
“Another question I have is do Pius X clergy consider Pope Francis their Pope?”
Yes, of course.
Tracy, SSPX clergy and adherents do believe that Pope Francis is the pope. They actually get rather beat up by other ‘Traditionalist’ groups for it, too. Makes for an interesting situation, to be sure.
As to those who switch from SSPX to EF and back, I cannot speak for them personally, but have learned that some are just eager for the traditional liturgy and teachings – purity and consistency. They are also constantly torn by the ‘in full communion, not in full communion’ argument. (The black and white condemnations by mostly Anon posters are brutal, but actually reflect a lot of what goes on around the country from presiding Bishops and clergy who have no taste for tradition or that which was taught pre-VII.)
And yet, there are many good folks in both the SSPX and EF. And yes, there is the FSSP. But even in that situation, you have families that cleave to Tradition (fullness of Catholic teaching, lets say) only to have the local ordinary pull priests, require modernist criteria for the receipt of Baptism, First Communion, and Confirmation. (Imagine the Bishop insisting you send your eighth graders off to a no-parents, mixed girl boy retreat required for Confirmation. Things like that.)
It is hard. Thank you for your kind regard, prayers, and open nature. Again, I say, if you want to know the true position of the society, visit their website. There is nothing better in a dialogue, that is a true one, than truly understanding the position of another.
Ann, I definitely have the same feelings as you in regards to how our faith is being greatly under-minded by some, if not many, of the Pastors who are entrusted to protect it. It sure does feel like a loosing battle sometimes. It seems to me that there have always been cases of this throughout the history of the Church to one extent or another. That being said, I myself cannot imagine ever wanting to leave the cover of Rome. I choose to fight for the faith within Her sacred walls as many have chosen to do in centuries past, (and trust me, the battlefield is oftentimes extremely ugly!), I wish that you too would come back 100% into the fold, as it is apparent to me that you want the truth known. I pray that if the Lord gives you rest from your travels, you will be open to this.
Jeff Culbreath, thank you for your kind response. I find your statement, “Most laymen have neither the time nor the inclination to sort through complicated ecclesiastical politics.”, puzzling, however. The SSPX members I have met, whether in person or here on CCD, seem to have both the inclination, and do make the time, to sort through all sorts of ecclesiastical issues. My feeling is that maybe they avoid doing so with regards to this matter, as “discovering” the truth would most likely result in painful consequences they are not yet willing to deal with.
Tracy, you may be spot on in some cases regarding:
“…My feeling is that maybe they avoid doing so with regards to this matter, as “discovering” the truth would most likely result in painful consequences they are not yet willing to deal with.”
But in others, at least from what I have seen and experienced, that is not the case at all. Rather they truly do believe that the Church supplies in time of crisis and that Her paramount goal is the salvation of souls. That said, they put to bed the nagging conflict that would have them become scrupulous to the point of psychosis and just go where God leads them.
Jim, your comment reflects ignorance (I hope unintentionally so). The 4 bishops of teh SSPX were once excommunicated-no one else–and they have been un-excommunicated. The Vatican’s Ecclesia Dei Commision has made it clear that there is NO SIN in attending SSPX Masses, receiving Communion there, and contributing modestly to the collection, so long as the person does not intend to separate from the Vicar of Christ. The Church has also always tought that a need to travel more than an hour excuses a person from the obligation of weekly Mass attendance. For you to write that it would be schismatic and/or sinful to attend an SSPX Mass is wreckless at best and slanderous at worst depending on your degree of honest ignorance. But any person should educate himslef before presuming to make public statements.
The legislation concerning the EF (SP, UE, and clarifications) makes it clear that “stable community” is to be interpreted in a quite generous, not restrictive, manner, therefore it is questionable for this pastor/group of priests to use “lack of a stable community”, as they perceive it, as grounds for discontinuing Holy Mass in the EF in this parish. That their ordinary apparently supports his priests’ refusal to minister to a group of the faithful who are attached to the EF means the congregation’s only chance of getting the EF reinstated in their parish is to appeal directly to PCED in Rome.
Ann Malley/Carl- Let’s be clear; the SSPX is not a “full service”, and certainly not an ecclesiastically-approved alternative for Catholics who prefer the Extraordinary Form. Members of the SSPX, to the extent they represent themselves as ministers of the Roman Catholic Church, while not in formal schism or under any sort of interdict, are NOT in a normal canonical relationship w/ the Holy See and Holy Mother Church. Preaching, parish life and other areas of “ministry” aside, regarding the sacraments, SSPX priests can only provide valid, though illicit, Baptism and Eucharist to their congregants, and arguably Holy Orders (at least, to diaconate and priesthood). They do not possess faculties to validly administer any other sacrament of the Church, perhaps most importantly to the faithful, Penance.
Failing a reinstatement of the EF at St John the Baptist parish (which seems unlikely any time soon, based on the information given in the article), EF adherents in Chico, and especially at St Therese Chapel, would be much better advised to seek assistance and support from the FSSP, or any priest in good standing (i.e., with faculties) who is willing to minister to them in the EF in accordance w/ SP and UE, rather than the SSPX.
All Catholics of good will should hope and pray for the return of the SSPX to full canonical union w/ the Holy See, but until that happens, all Catholics should understand the real canonical limitations on what the SSPX can offer to Tradition-minded Catholics.
Pax vobiscum- 4M
Correction/clarification: Contrary to my statement above, sacraments ostensibly provided by SSPX priests are illicit but valid, except for Penance and Matrimony, which are both illicit and invalid. This stems from their priests’ status as validly ordained but suspended ministers, which makes all their attempted sacramental actions illicit; SSPX Penance and Matrimony are invalid in addition to being illicit, since those sacraments require faculties from an ordinary in communion w/ Rome to be valid, which they do not possess.
These complex issues are presented and discussed in an excellent archived post on Fr Zuhlsdorf’s blog-
I apologize for any inaccuracy regarding the Society in my original post. I always hesitate to comment on the SSPX since their situation and history in the Church is so complicated and unusual, but I think people need to know the facts about the Society and its true canonical status vis-à-vis the Church and the Holy See- 4M.
Thanks 4Marks for your clarity. That said, the SSPX quotes canon law as well:
“The nature of the present crisis in the Church is such that the faithful can on good grounds feel it a moral impossibility to approach priests having ordinary jurisdiction. And so, whenever the faithful need the graces of penance and want to receive them from priests whose judgment and advice they can trust, they can do so, even if the priests do not ordinarily have jurisdiction. Even a suspended priest can do this for the faithful who ask: “for any just cause whatsoever” (canon 1335). This is even more the case if a faithful Catholic can foresee his being deprived of the true sacrament of penance from priests with ordinary jurisdiction until he dies. Only God knows when this crisis will end.”
There’s more on their website (sspx.org) that you could read yourself if you so choose (Consider it a dip into ecumenism if you’d like). Experience, however, is what led me to not dismiss the SSPX. That and the fact that I adhere to the Latin Mass to retain the Faith – it is no mere preference.
That said, Chico should go ahead and invite the Society, let them built up the Latin Mass community and then the Diocese will be more than pleased to offer a regular Indult mass. That, in my experience and travels across the country, is precisely the way things work.
So, despite the complicated gray area, the Society is very much working to spread the love and adherence to the Traditional Mass. In that, I am exceedingly grateful.
The link does not work.
One of these priests has been quoted to proudly say that he had voted for Obama for president. It does not surprise me, therefore, that he would want to get rid of the Latin Mass.
I do feel, however, that having an SSPX Mass is NOT an alternative.
“…there was never any effort on the part of the clergy to promote the Extraordinary Form to the rest of the parish, or even to educate people about it…” <— Did the laity do THEIR job? I rather doubt it else EF Mass attendance might have grown.
"…There were few extra-liturgical events for the TLM community…" <– First, what "TLM (sic) community?" Were they part of an existing parish or not? Second, what did the LAITY do? Third what did those who attend the EF Mass do to make themselves part of an actual parish rather than a "TLM (sic) community?"
The use of the catch-all scapegoat "liberal" makes it clear the author don't have a clue.
Your insistence on using Anonymous and insisting that the burden falls upon the laity – that is if I’m interpreting you correctly – makes it unclear what your position is.
You would condemn St. Athanasius the Great, Doctor of the Church!
May God have mercy on an amoral Amerika!
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founding Director
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.
Mr. Fisher- I have no idea how you come up w/ such an incredible remark. I condemn no one, and find it offensive you suggest I would condemn a Doctor of Holy Church. Nothing in my commentary even suggests condemnation of anyone; I made a few suggestions concerning remedies for the Chico TLM adherents, and cited some FACTS about the SSPX, that’s all. If you find those facts uncomfortable or “condemnatory” in some way, that’s on you, not me. Peace- 4M.
Ken doesn’t necessarily find the FACTS uncomfortable, FourMarks, but rather the one sided methodology used in gleaning and reporting your portion of them. Your ‘Let’s-be-clear’ comments earlier regarding the Society not being ‘full service’ also indicate that you have either no respect for the Society’s position, don’t know what it is, or who knows. You will only hear one side – that which you determine safe?
As for St. Athanasius, Ken is merely referencing a past case of one considered outside the Church who actually, by the grace of God, helped in saving Her. Or at least getting things back on track.
History is the element that plays all this out. For there would have been many, if blogging were available, who would have condemned St. Athanasius.
“…there was never any effort on the part of the clergy to promote the Extraordinary Form to the rest of the parish, or even to educate people about it…” <— Did the laity do THEIR job? I rather doubt it else EF Mass attendance might have grown.
"…There were few extra-liturgical events for the TLM community…" <– First, what "TLM (sic) community?" Were they part of an existing parish or not? Second, what did the LAITY do? Third what did those who attend the EF Mass do to make themselves part of an actual parish rather than a "TLM (sic) community?"
The use of the catch-all scapegoat "liberal" makes it clear the author don't have a clue.
Okay, it’s you R.B. Now I understand. As to the scapegoat ‘liberal’, examine the evidence and fallout of myriad liberal Church policies and then reassess whether or not this is a true case of scapegoating.
One can take benefit of the doubt into the ridiculous.
At the very moment the SSPX is doing all that it can to distance itself from the Catholic Church this St. Therese Chapel wants affiliate with it?
How terribly sad.
Everything to distance itself, R.B., from what precisely? Not Holy Mother Church. Not by far. Rather the SSPX does what it must to distance itself from the ‘ecumenical’ nonsense that is all about dialogue (with all but true Catholic theologians), tolerance (to avoid confrontation), but nothing about conversion to the One True Faith. That is the Faith – not false obedience or the willful obfuscating of the Truth.
Rodda why don’t you reply to Ann…so no reaction to her comments have you? What have you against someone challenging you to think? Why do you refuse to think and not dialogue? Dialogue and learn….in charity of course.
“Jim”: First, please learn the facts: the SSPX has never been termed “schismatic” by an official organ of the Catholic Church. In fact, such a designation would have made Benedict’s serious attempts at recognition seem, at least, foolish. The Chico “experiment” in having an “unsuccessful” attempt at establishing a permanent TLM is not alone; other parishes/dioceses have thrown out a TLM here and there and then done nothing to encourage others to attend, or to learn about the Masses of All Time. How can you expect otherwise when the Catholic Church has been a veritable Orwellian universe of the N.O., with the “traditional” sacraments treated as no longer being Catholic. To be successful, the Church would need to teach the TLM and Traditional Sacraments during Catechism, and schedule their regular use. Adherents need to be taught. And, how are we to know what the reference points are in Chico? Numbers of attendants? Collection amounts? Did the priests have any object way to say, “This is not working?” Most likely not. In fact, given the spate of this happening elsewhere, it is pretty clear that priests and bishops see now that the way is clear to dump all Tradition, including the TLM. They see Francis as not being at all like Benedict, and being good company men, they seek the easiest path to corporate success. The people of Chico should protest, and others should protest with them. Of course, the local ordinary is not at all Traditional, so he will likely laugh at any such attempts. Archbishop Cordileone in SF seems all the more like a beacon for Northern CA clergy. What a shame. And, what a joke the Catholic Church leadership in California has become (with an exception here and there). Good people, withdraw your collections and give to Traditional groups, yes, even the SSPX at times. Pray that Francis continues in his apparent very recent efforts to come back to at least a neutral course; he has done great damage by loose language, particularly with clergy that so eagerly look for support for their cowardice.
Thank you, St. Christopher.
“”In itself, this act [unlawful episcopal ordination by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre] was one of disobedience to the Roman Pontiff in a very grave matter and of supreme importance for the unity of the church, such as is the ordination of bishops whereby the apostolic succession is sacramentally perpetuated. Hence such disobedience – which implies in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy – constitutes a schismatic act.””
Once again for the S.S.P.X. haters they are and never were in schism, so please stop saying they are. And yes in order to avoid the drinking the koolaide of the Novus Ordo these poor people should run to the nearest S.S.P.X. chapel for the good of their souls. Avoid the clowns, dancing girls, altar girls, lay lectors, giant puppets, guitars, drums, tamborines, hand holding, kiss of peace, and all that the Novus Ordo will feed you. The Holy Father Pope Benedict the XVI said the Church will be smaller, but they will be the true believers.
You obviously don’t go to Church.
So go to ‘Church’ and get what you need, Anonymous. Faith and fulness of Truth – well – shrug. Who needs that?!
I have a friend who was traveling over an hour to Chico to attend the EF Mass. When I called St. John’s about a year ago to ask times for the EF Mass, I was told it was not longer being offered! I is a 2.5 hr drive for me to get to Chico, but I was willing. 5-6 hrs to Sacramento is just too far. We in N. CA have absolutely zilch options for attending the EF Mass other than watching it on the computer from an FSSP feed from Florida.
Colleen, so if what your friend said was correct, then not only didn’t the Chico parish not promote the EF Mass, but they did everything in their power to hide it!
I notice the letter is signed by Fr. Tim Nondorf, the same Father Nondorf who presented a seminar entitled “THE LITURGICAL THEOLOGY OF THE CHEESEBURGER.” look it up, he really did. The flyer for the event has his picture juxtaposed with that of a Jack in the Box bobble head.
Anyone seeking to affiliate with the S.S.P.X. is not a good thing.
What is worse, M.D., is the reason behind WHY anyone would want to affiliate themselves with something that is supposedly ‘not good’. So many assume that it is a lack of education in the Faith, a rebellious spirit, a lack of obedience. Has anyone thought perhaps that these folks in Chico are starving? That’s usually what pushes someone to do the ‘unthinkable’.
So think about it.
Ann, so it sounds to me that you attend a SSPX church. Is there not a Latin Mass within reasonable driving distance of you which IS in full communion with Rome? If there is, and you still choose the SSPX, then I would say that there is more going on with you severing ties from Rome than pure attachment to the Latin Rite.
Tracy, there is more going on with me than mere ‘attachment’ to the Roman rite. And as I’ve said before, I make use of SSPX, Independent, and FSSP traditional masses when/where necessary as traveling, moving, and moving again come into play quite often out of necessity.
I’m on move 27 – not counting interim hotel stays and facing yet another job related move. Thus homeschooling in the day, Latin mass, and doing all I can to retain the Faith.
Well Ann God bless you for your efforts. But it is good to seek out a church that is within union of the magisterium. I will pray for you because I sympathize with you because you probably feel conflicted. Especially if you live in an area where there are parishes that lack faithfulness and true Catholicism. But don’t fret, Our Lord is still there because it is His church, even when it is in trouble.
Abeca, thank you. I appreciate your prayers.
Thank you abeca and Tracy. A million times thank you!
Ann, what do the FSSP priest say about your going back and forth from the Masses they offer and the Masses the SSPX offers? What does the SSPX priest say about this? Do you know how prevalent this going back and forth is among SSPX congregants?
So why not truly thank Tracy and Abeca, Anonymous. By getting a name and using it.
I have been told, likely due to the constant instability of residencies, to focus on keeping the Faith, Tracy. That said, I know of one very good family who attends the daily mass at an indult but goes to the SSPX on Sundays. Why? Because the SSPX spreads the fullness of traditional Faith (despite what others may believe) and they constantly pursue the legitimate right to discuss the VII inconsistencies and the resulting watering down of solid Church teaching.
Many of the indult masses and FSSP offerings are ONLY offered after the SSPX clergy has spent the hard time building up the Traditional community. That is why I have such heartburn when it comes to those who would throw the SSPX under the bus. And that is precisely what many traditionalists unwittingly do when they cast aside the Society as unacceptable while enjoying the fruits that came about from their supposedly rebellious actions.
The breakdown of talks with Rome, unlike many believe, also revolves around preserving Truth. That is the liberty to call out those who use Vatican II to justify all manner of modernist nonsense. It’s a vast topic to research, Tracy. But well worth it if only to understand it.
Ann, I appreciate your candidness on this matter and for answering my 3rd question. It has only been about 5 years now that I have started to meet and converse with people from the SSPX. They are the ones who have informed me that they attend both SSPX Masses as well as the EF Mass offered by a priest faithful to Rome. From where I stand, I can’t help but find this to be problematic. This is why I ask you, (or anyone else for that matter), if you knew if Roman Catholic priests, as well as SSPX priests, also find this arrangement to be problematic? I’m beginning to wonder if they even realize how wide spread this practice may be.
Ann, Thank you for calling Anonymous out! “So why not truly thank Tracy and Abeca, Anonymous. By getting a name and using it”
When I read Anonymous’ so called “thank you”, “a million times, thank you”, I couldn’t help but think that he/she was really jumping up and down with evil glee. Maybe he/she, seeing the conservative forces in different camps on this issue, think that he/she is seeing a crumbling of our traditional convictions. As our enemies are out to destroy anything that is right and good, this is the only hope they think they have. I’ll give the Leftist one thing; they sure seem to have no problem supporting one another in whatever debased practice there is out there.
Tracy, I am a traditionally minded Catholic who was tempted by and saved from the errors that Ann has fallen for. I thank you for praying for her. I have been very disturbed that this person who is obviously new to the Faith could write so many error and vilify the Catholic Church and none of the posters who are usually outspoken in defense of the Faith said anything. Maybe they didn’t read it; maybe they didn’t care. I think your approach has been more tactful and more fruitful than mine. So I will leave it to you and abeca and any others who might show mercy to this person. I am more convicted of traditional Catholicism than most who post here. There is great misunderstanding about what Catholic Tradition actually is. Many people post error here and it is impossible to keep up with it all. I am not a Leftist and I do not support debased practices.
“This is why I ask you, (or anyone else for that matter), if you knew if Roman Catholic priests, as well as SSPX priests, also find this arrangement to be problematic? I’m beginning to wonder if they even realize how wide spread this practice may be.”
I can’t speak for Ann (she speaks very well for herself!!), but in my experience the FSSP priests know full well that some of their people also attend SSPX masses. Sometimes it’s a matter of family divisions; other times it’s a matter of convenience and long commutes. I have been told several times that, if there is no FSSP or similarly orthodox community nearby, that attendance at SSPX or even independent chapels is not a problem so long as one does not intend to separate himself from the Church.
Tracy, every good Catholic wants to live in full canonical obedience to Rome and to his diocesan ordinary. But the moral obligation of obedience is never absolute, justified at any price. Uniting with a typical Novus Ordo community in this diocese is a danger to souls. Period. I don’t know that the SSPX is *the* answer at this point, but for many it’s a lifeboat – maybe a leaky one, maybe a temporary one, but it’s a place where the integral Catholic Faith and liturgy is still alive when you’re out of options.
Jeff, thank you again for presenting the situation of many Traditionalists so succinctly and charitably. SSPX is a lifeboat to be sure. And again, many who are not subjected to moving very much, can get accustomed to what they’ve found works for them. Not to say they compromise, but they’ve found their piece of driftwood to cling to during this present crisis. And yes, there have been other times of grievous trial in the history of Mother Church, but that is no reason to discount the one we are currently enduring.
In many ways it is more subtle which makes fighting it all the harder. Hence Catherine’s comments on another thread of ‘frogs in the boiling pot’.
That said, Tracy, I would heartily concur with Jeff. The priests I know are well aware of the back and forth traffic between SSPX and FSSP. But they are pastors. On this level, and between Catholics, they are trying their utmost to minister with the purpose of the salvation of souls. So what to do?
Then again, one NO friend of mine who is married to a non-Catholic was told it would be fine to go to the beach on Sundays instead of going to Mass if it would keep peace in her family. Her and her children missing mass would be considered an act of charity. So go figure? The children in that household have been raised to skip mass – mortal sin if you’re a discerning Catholic making the call to go to the beach for a picnic instead of attending mass – under the guise of charity.
So which is full communion? Where can one go to preserve fullness of Faith (That is lex orandi lex credenzi – apologies for any misspellings).
Anonymous, I thank you again for your concern, but please, please do not filter my situation exclusively through your own personal experience. You do yourself and others a disservice. While what you’ve experienced should have voice, to be sure, the experience of others, especially when it concerns their decisions, must be taken into account. IOW: You are not my conscience and you will not answer for me at the time of judgment.
That said, I’ve already let you know that I received 12 years of rather expensive private Catholic school. At exceeding personal to my dear, departed parents – a blue collar worker and a stay-at-home mom who did their best despite very little education and income to rear eight children. I am well aware of the Faith and the Novus Ordo and the Traditionalist position. I do not know why you keep insisting I am somehow new to the Faith, but please stop believing such a falsehood.
In your post you say that you are more Traditionally minded than most. Okay. Excellent. So why is it then that you will not give a name to your writings so that others may see precisely how you express this love of Tradition – in its entirety. It is possible that the Traditionalists you perceive on this thread who are dismissing you are doing so because you are not as Traditional minded as you think you are. That is, perhaps you have something more to learn or, perhaps they are just suspect of your views because, even still, you do not name yourself.
Enough said. Prayers for you, Anon, even though you leave praying for me to others….
Ann Malley writes: “Anonymous, I thank you again for your concern, but please, please do not filter my situation exclusively through your own personal experience. You do yourself and others a disservice. While what you’ve experienced should have voice, to be sure, the experience of others, especially when it concerns their decisions, must be taken into account. IOW: You are not my conscience and you will not answer for me at the time of judgment.”
I must say I’d never have taken Ann Malley for a modernist with situational ethics. Yet that is what she sounds like. Perhaps she is truly hearing the words of Francis when he says that if someone seeks God with a sincere heart, then who is he to judge.
To be sure, I am not accusing Ann of being a modernist. She is simply mirroring official catholic doctrine on the primacy of conscience. But most people on CCD are not allowed to get away with appeals to conscience.
I agree with Tracy on this being problematic, that is if I understood her comments well. That is why the church really needs to make it a priority and help the SSPX to unite once again to the true faith. It is an urgency to help this be done. But in the meantime I pray and encourage those that are conflicted to set aside their prejudges and still remain faithful and persevere with fortitude and remain in union with Rome. It is a virtue to persevere with fortitude and one can grow more virtuous by remaining in union with Rome!
Our Bishops who have their prejudices against the Latin Mass, need to humble themselves and save souls, they need to recognize the importance to keep the Latin Mass in most area’s….so we can keep those who value this beautiful mass and show them respect. It is their moral duty not to provoke some type of confusion and scandal by their actions that display prejudges.
YFC, I am the same Ann Malley that took issue in earlier posts with the raising of homosexual sins above other mortal sins. I think I said something to the effect of “…it only takes one unrepentant mortal sin to land a body in Hell. And the fact that many in the NO Church do not wish to cast judgment or at least discern as much is because they harbor their own pet mortal sins.”
This was not to say that the sins of Sodom – sodomy includes that which can and VERY FREQUENTLY ARE done in a heterosexual union- are sins that cry to Heaven. I still hold fast to that. I took a big hit, however, from Traditionalists on CCD for saying as much.
That said, despite what Abeca has recently been told, it is not a sin to attend the SSPX. Being attracted to the same sex in itself is no sin either. It is a cross that must be borne. Much like the contracting of a heinous, dry marriage. Or any other spiritual wound. These things are not up for debate – at least not to me.
My suggestion that Anonymous stop his/her filtering assertions was said because this person seems to have had some affiliation with the SSPX in the past. For whatever reason, it went sour. But he/she has no notion of why I practice where I do. Or at least he/she doesn’t seem to read any deeper than SSPX – REACT!
It is more than just the Latin Mass, Abeca. It is the teaching of the fullness of Catholic Truth. But it is problematic. And again, I’d ask anyone:
If there is true, untainted cohesion in the magisterium, how is it that the Vatican is planning a Martin Luther celebration in 2017? Please, I want to know.
That said, regarding uniting with the True Faith, this is precisely what SSPX is looking to do. But with all the proposed ambiguity, it is difficult to discern. Combine that with the prerequisite gag order regarding VII and where does that leave a body?
Outside the Church according to Anonymous.
…correction, YFC. Got to make sure I state things just right or else all sides will come out of the cyber-woods with clubs a’flaming.
I still hold fast to the truth that the Sin of Sodom IS that which cries out to Heaven. It was very kind of you, however, to hop on board the situational ethics train while dismissing and/or ignoring my other writings.
As for getting away with citing conscience, don’t kid yourself. I’ve been whipped at the post – excuse the pun – on this very thread by none other than Cardinal Anonymous. But that’s also the problem as many consciences have been malformed or rather not formed at all.
Here’s to the Fullness of Truth for one and all!
Ann Malley – I may disagree with you on some points regarding, for example, the reforms of VII, but I give you high praise for the internal consistency of your stance, and the general faithfulness of your positions to the RCC. Integrity is something I value highly, and even though I disagree with you, for example, about your interpretations of what constitutes the “sin of Sodom”, I am glad that you at least admit that your version of it is not only committed by gay people and even by all gay people. Just making that same point here on CCD has won me tons of acrimony. You made the point and made it brilliantly, and in a way that showed your honest commitment to seeking truth wherever it leads you. So for that, I commend you.
You may want to withhold commendations, YFC, for even though we seem to meet on some points, I firmly hold that there is a ‘homosexual’ movement within Holy Mother Church, most specifically, within her seminaries. There has been for an exceedingly long time. One would be absolutely blind not to see it. This, IMO, is part and parcel of what has led to an increase in sexual sins of all variety.
Strike the shepherd and the flock will be scattered. That is not to say that homosexuality in itself is the chief of all sins, but rather the ‘perfect’ choice of ‘weakness’ when seeking to topple an all-male priesthood. And in toppling or gagging the priesthood, subsequently poisoning the flock. (And for all Anon posters, that poisoning comes about from the withholding of inconvenient Truths.)
That is why those who rigorously defend Holy Mother Church target homosexuality as the biggest issue – because in terms of the potential to affect and despoil the souls of our leadership – it is at the TOP of the list. So any idea of being obsessed with homosexuality is ridiculous. It is rather being focused on precisely what is most damaging to the souls of our Shepherds.
That is also why, despite my understanding Pope Francis’ desire for pastoral speak, I hold that it is precisely his position to judge. Not the soul, per se, but the prudence in allowing one who is admittedly tempted by men to wallow in the occasion by being surrounded by nothing but. One may not want to judge a reformed fox, but would be considered an absolute fool for putting him in charge of the hen house.
Ann, I shall not yet withhold my praise of you!
You have tried to keep my praise away by pointing out your view of the roll of homosexuality within the curia. And even though I might challenge you on some of those factual points, I still don’t find your discussion to be in any way disrespectful of myself or of other gay people.
Look, there has CLEARLY been a serious problem within the catholic curia that allowed sexual misconduct to go on without sufficient remedy. In my opinion, there is just no other explanation that there were men who turned a blind eye to sexual abuses in their midst. For whatever reason, it was part of the culture. I have no idea how that happenned, whether it was the gays in the ministry who turned the blind eye or committed the offenses, but clearly there has been a very serious situation. And I am further of the opinion that this situation needs to be clensed from the Church regardless of whether in the end it turns out to have been a gay problem or a straight problem or some other kind of problem. We MUST do this. But we must understand as well that there were gay priests and straight priests who allowed this culture to thrive. And there were gay priests and straight priests who tried to stop it.
It happened by way of active ‘recruitment’ and the intentional despoiling of seminarians, YFC. It happened through the modernist movement in Vatican II.
That is not just my opinion, but knowledge I have gained through life’s hardest lessons. Through witnessing family and friends scattered, ruined, preyed upon, scandalized and, worst of all, horrifically misled – all up close and personal like. That includes you as well if I am correct in understanding our disagreement as to what defines ‘the sin of Sodom.’
I wish that were not the case because it was/is rather disgusting – this sad but ultimately necessary disillusionment. That’s one reason why the Anonymous poster who keeps accusing me of spreading Kool Aid is such a blind, company man. Paid, if you ask me. Or rather, paying with his/her soul to promote the objective misuse of the Keys of Peter to crucify Christ all over again just because He had the incredible humility to trust men in holding the keys.
Like leaving your kids home alone, giving the oldest the keys, and having him/her trash the house on purpose just because he/she knows Mom and Dad will still love them. It is precisely the ‘on purpose’ part that is the most galling.
How long oh, Lord? How long?
Anonymous, thank you for your candidness. I can only say that up until now your approach has apparently been misunderstood by myself as well. If you are the only Anonymous posting here then, it is the rare exception that you say much that doesn’t come across to me as Leftist ideology. I really do not understand why you choose not to post under a unique moniker rather than the generic “Anonymous”. A unique name would help those of us who participate in these threads gain better understanding of, and respect for you and your positions.
It’s entirely possible, Tracy, that Anonymous is there as a foil to draw out a seeming correlation between Traditionalists and Modernists. i.e. The argument for conscience.
That is why definitive pronouncements from the Holy See are so needed.
Well said M.D.
Jeff, I appreciate you input. I must admit that I find this all very confusing. So when you say that you have been told that there are certain situations in which it may be ok to attend a SSPX Mass, are you saying that the FSSP priest have told you this?
I am completely sympathetic to the fact that some parishes are outright scandalous. I must admit that I live in a metropolitan area which affords me some reasonable options. I have often wondered what I would do if the next nearest Catholic Church was over an hour away and the one closest to me was completely heretical. I guess there are some locations in rural California where this may be the case.
I guess the keyword in the article would be “tiny special interest group.” I sympathize with parish priests who are trying to fit in an extra mass in an often crowded Sunday schedule. There was talk of getting the TLM locally at my parish, but the only times it could be done were at 6:30 am or after 2pm; and from past experience, the already small, uneven attendance at TLMs drops off dramatically with those kind of inconvenient times for families. Plus, a priest who could say the mass and was free on Sundays had to be found. Realistically, I think most pastors see it as a supply and demand issue. I know my pastor would drop the Spanish mass if he didn’t see a need for it. A few years ago I was involved with a Byzantine mission parish, but after about 3 years it was discontinued because attendance never grew beyond a handful of people. That kind of attendance doesn’t even pay to keep the lights or heat on. Don’t always assume bad will or anti-TLM sentiments on the part of priests. I think we should all work for more reverent masses wherever we are.
You are correct, Kay, in keying in on the “tiny special interest group,” as being at the core of the issue. The special interest, however, is keeping the Catholic Faith, full and entire as it has been passed down, not how it has been twisted and obfuscated so as to avoid looking like a contradiction to the world – like Christ.
Your observation, “…Realistically, I think most pastors see it as a supply and demand issue. I know my pastor would drop the Spanish mass if he didn’t see a need for it,” is also spot on.
Many clerics erroneously relegate the Novus Ordo vs Latin Mass debate to purely time/business terms. (i.e. The Brievary is too lengthy. I could be doing better, more active things. The Rosary is all well and good, but can I really fit it in logistically to my day.)
That said, while there is always the need to, “…pay to keep the lights or heat on.” This is precisely the reason why those who want the Latin mass (not prefer it) are so adamant in getting it. They’re fighting to keep the spiritual light ON for themselves and their children.
So, while your admonition, “…Don’t always assume bad will or anti-TLM sentiments on the part of priests,” should be heeded. Please keep in mind that those clerics who regard Latin mass faithful as nothing more than a time-munching special interest group could use some spiritual insight as to the true nature of the issue.
If you don’t go to a Catholic Church , how would you know? Cardinal Rigali, a firm supporter of the TLM, (he made his seminarians learn both) said that there are very few requests for it.
Many are requesting it, Anonymous, which is precisely why there is a growing Latin Mass community. Where have you been? As for Cardinal Rigali, good for him! With prayer and patience, the children will grow, learning to desire that which is good for them instead of merely existing on that which is easily accessible.
Believe it or not, there are many fallen away Catholics who later seek out fundamentalist Protestant groups precisely because such groups are more defined in their beliefs and consistency in moral teaching.
You are right. Time will tell and time will reveal the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart. Hasn’t time already told many what happens when the fullness of the Truth is not taught, followed or upheld. The horrific chaos of the sex abuse scandals are the rotten fruits of the many years of spiritual neglect. Whose intellects are still so darkened or compromised that these scandals did not serve as a serious WAKE UP call to teach the fullness of the Truth? I understand everything that you are charitably communicating. I have never attended or advocated for anyone to attend an independent chapel or an SSPX Mass. You have never advocated that anyone should leave the barque of Peter or attend a SSPX Mass. You are advocating the teaching of the fullness of Truth and an awareness of the imbalance of those who are Johnny on the spot quick to pull out their “selective schismatic accusation cards” while they themselves neglect the opportunity and responsibility to teach the fullness of Truth even while this responsibility is staring at them straight in the face. A few years ago I spoke with a man in Idaho and he was forced by circumstances to have to attend Mass at a SSPX parish because the bishop at that time closed down his parish. The same bishop then early retired all of the solid and faithful priests in his diocese. One day this gentleman went to Mass and there was a cease and desist notice on his church’s front door. No previous hint or warning just a sign on the door. The priests who were early retired by this bishop were shocked because they were still able and willing to serve their different parishes. There was not a priest shortage in that particular diocese. There was a shortage of welcoming and allowing the fullness of the Truth.
Ann Malley, The mystery poster named anonymous is unwilling to write a recognized name because it suits a self serving purpose to remain unrecognized by a specific name. This same anonymous poster who rightfully rails about rightfully remaining in full communion with the barque of Peter was always the first to selectively depart from that railing to encourage, support and defend homosexual activist posters. This poster will also deny it. Hiding in darkness, promoting dissent through false charity that fails to clarify, spreading confusion all under the exposed posting action of getting to say, “I get to do these duplicitous acts that are offensive to God all under the protective umbrella of a diocese while meanwhile undermining the barque of Peter which is the fullness of Truth.” Confusion is a hallmark sign of the handiwork of the devil. Clarity is a hallmark sign of the fullness of Truth. Yes, at this particular time there are some very faithful priests within each diocese. Yes, at this particular time for some there is still a convenient TLM to attend but not for all. When a Catholic is taught that it is acceptable to receive Holy Communion at a Novus Ordo Mass from a person dressed in a devil costume then the faith of many are greatly damaged. The healing comes with the fullness of Truth. Will the bishops listen to Pope Francis and reach out to the wounded who have felt forced to attend independent chapels because of the continued watering down destruction of the fullness of Truth? Pope Francis asked the bishops to bind up and heal the many different wounds of Catholics by remaining close to their flock within their own diocese. Heterodoxy is tolerated and allowed while there is absolutely no interest in healing and binding the wounds of those within each diocese whose faith has been greatly damaged and assaulted through permitted evils. This is a testimony that there is still no interest in *vigorously upholding* the fullness of Truth. Our Lady of Akita called it COMPROMISE!
Catherine, I understand that people like the Latin Mass. So do I. But faith in Jesus Christ and the fullness of Truth demands that we admonish the sinner. It is not a sin to attend a Mass by SSPX or other traditionalist groups. The sin that the other poster is committing often is speaking falsely of the Catholic Church. I know that there have been priests who have spoken wrongly about Catholic Truth. There are Catholic laity who refuse to follow the Truth and the Faith. You do not support that, do you? Well, if it is wrong for a priest or a lay person who attend the Catholic Church to speak falsely of the Catholic Faith, is it not also wrong for someone who does not attend a Catholic Church to do so?
Thank you, Catherine, for understanding. What a gift from God! What a portent of true unity once God in His goodness sees fit to end this chastisement that we as a people, in our rejection of sound teaching, have sought with itching ears. (That is by Catholics seeking compromise with the world, Anonymous.)
As for admonishing the sin of another, Anonymous, attend to the beam in your own eye. “No one lights a lamp and puts it in a cellar or even under the measure, but upon the lamp-stand, that they who enter in may see the light.” And yet you remain in shadows.
If all you get from the practice of tradition is ‘liking’ the Latin Mass, then you again have missed the point. So, now that you seem to have yielded in that, “…it is not a sin to attend a Mass by SSPX or other traditionalist groups,” perhaps you will stick around to discover how being in the Barque of Peter does not equate only to legalities.
Remember the words of Our Lord in Mark 9:39 – “…For he who is not against you is for you.”
In the spirit of forming consciences, I’m sharing a link I found to answer some questions I had after reading this blog & comments:
As for my conscience, if I truly believe that the Holy Spirit guides our Church, then I cannot in good conscience participate in SSPX functions.
struxton- That is the recent article I was actually looking for on Fr Z’s blog when I searched and came up w/ the 2008 article I cited in my posts above… both are informative, but in the recent article Fr Z clearly explains the distinctions between validity and liceity, and how they affect the sacramental actions SSPX priests perform for their adherents. Thanks for providing the link- 4M.
Fr. Z, with all due respect, is not the final authority regarding the SSPX’s situation.
Ann Malley- I didn’t say, or even imply, that Fr Z is any kind of authority, and I don’t think he would claim to be. However, IMO his blog is an excellent informational resource for many different Church issues, and I think he tries to treat the SSPX and the issues surrounding it fairly and even sympathetically, but he does so from the standpoint of a priest in good standing “inside” the Church, not as a member of the Society. I was simply trying to draw some of the facts of the Society’s status into this discussion; what a person makes of those facts depends on their ecclesiological “viewpoint” or “world view”. Heroic white martyrs preserving the True Faith, or disobedient ultra-orthodox fringe group on the edge of schism? Both at the same time? I guess it depends on your viewpoint.
I don’t have anything against the Society, quite the contrary; I just wish they were in full communion w/ the Holy See, and hope and pray some day they will be- 4M.
Thanks for your reply, 4Marks. I’m sorry if I misinterpreted your earlier post.
If you’re looking for the true basis of the SSPX’s position, however, you should go to the SSPX website. Despite Fr. Z’s good intent, he is still on the other side of the debate as he has made his decision of full communion. He is not impartial in his assessments. He cannot be precisely because of this… not on a public blog anyway. This is not meant to impugn Father’s integrity, but just the nature of being placed in a position of gray that even his big bosses seem unable and unwilling to agree upon.
As for the Society’s being in full communion with the Holy See, I pray for this, too. But it will take much clear thinking, honesty, and true humility on all sides. The fact that the faithful are left to hang between wondering if the Society is comprised of , “…heroic white martyrs preserving the True Faith or disobedient ultra-orthodox fringe group on the edge of schism?” is the real scandal.
But it is precisely the absurdity of such a question that outlines the ongoing inconsistencies since Vatican II.
Dear Ann Malley- I was ready to let this already incredibly long and convoluted thread go, but… I did want to say thanks to you for your repeated attempts to be a voice of balance, reason and civility amongst the ideologues, the poorly informed, and yes, the trolls here on CCD; the “TLM/Novus Ordo” and “SSPX” topics always seem to generate the longest, most tumutuous threads.
I want you to know I am not “against” the SSPX. While I don’t know everything there is to know about the Society and their complex history in the Church, I probably know a bit more than the average pewsitter, and not just from “official sources” in the Church. I have read and carefully considered their Angelus Press publication, “Most Asked Questions about the Society…”, so I think I understand their doctrinal positions and opinions. I respect them, and admire their zeal for traditional Catholic doctrine and worship, but it is a plain fact many of their opinions are contrary to the current Magisterium of the Church. They are fighting a very tough battle, and it has pushed them to the very outer edge of Church life, and caused them to become “disconnected” from the See of Peter. I hope and pray a way will be found to “re-connect” them and give them full and un-ambiguous standing and status in the Church; we need them to be fighting the good fight from and among the “center” (i.e., Rome), with the Holy Father and within the Vatican, not from the periphery. So I hope and pray for full re-union.
I do have one question for you; you refer in several of your posts to “indults” or “indult Masses”; my understanding is that Summorum Pontificum essentially did away with indults for TLMs, defining that the TLM had never been abrogated, and affirming it as a fully and clearly legitimate “form” of the Latin Rite Mass which can be celebrated anywhere by a Latin Rite priest having faculties, without the specific permission of an ordinary. I’m curious as to what “indult(s)” you are referring to?
Pax tecum- 4M.
Thanks for your post, 4M. My use of the term Indult is just the term I have always used to describe diocesan approved Tridentine masses that do not fall under the auspices of a particular traditional group such as the FSSP. It could be technically referred to as a misnomer on my part, but I stick to that term in order to speak to the situation in shorter form. But you are right in that the Latin mass was never abrogated and is indeed fully and clearly legitimate. Perhaps I should change my terminology to ‘diocesan approved’ to be more precise. I will try.
As to the Society’s views and opinions being against the current magisterium, 4M, I cannot help but call out that much in the modern magisterium is ambiguous. If not in formal teachings at the very least in practice and discipline. So while I hear you about fighting from within, I cannot discount the Holy Ghost who is at liberty to make use of what He wills to bring about the good. (Without the SSPX, there would have been no papal proclamation revealing that the Tridentine Mass was never abrogated. A TRUTH, 4M, that was being hidden.)
‘Do not forbid him; for he who is not against you is for you.”
Going further, if full communion requires a clerical gag-order on speaking the full truth about the dual theological nature and fruits of Vatican II, I’d say we need the SSPX or somebody willing to brave the waters. The trail of ‘diocesan approved Latin Masses’ often follows on the heels of SSPX who was there first doing the grunt work of catechizing and building up. Giving the faithful a taste of the meat they so desperately need to save their souls and those of others.
As to disconnection from the See of Peter, at what point does one discern disconnection from the Vicar of Christ and disconnection from Christ Himself? A family is a family by the construct of God. Nothing can dismiss the true nature of it. If, however, the head of that family teaches that which has proved detrimental to the children, or allows it to be taught by those who answer to him, when does it become incumbent upon the subordinates – say the wife or even the children – to speak up? To say enough before all the fruit is ruined?
**Sorry for being so long winded**
Pope Francis has been reported to say that he has the requisite humility needed to go forward with the ecumenism outlined in Vatican II. That said, I pray that this humility is extended in reaching out to those disaffected Catholics who have root caused the current crisis, to the best of their ability, to the infiltration of modernism and ambiguity within the Church to VII. (And the modernist theology that preceded it.)
IOW: Until the hierarchy of the Church comes to the realization that Vatican II is not a sacred cow in all that it proposed – albeit the proposition of ambiguity – there will be no union.
Supporting the Pope or any other leader does not necessarily equate to going along with and/or approving everything they say. In many instances, it is doing the opposite in all charity that is the support they need, not only to do their job, but to be successful at it. And saving souls is the paramount issue here, not winning the hearts and minds of all but Catholics themselves.
Ann, WHO is the final authority regarding SSPX’s situation?
Tracy, I’m not quite sure on this. I’d say the Holy Father. And surely that would be so if he would speak ex-cathedra. And yet, in the time of St. Athanasius, even Pope Liberius was against St. Athanasius. That is why I’ve said that time is the true test…. at least for me and mine. (Research of the VII council will show that there was a split mentality of tradition vs. modernism…. that, I think, is what’s at play even now with regard to the SSPX.)
Popes change their styles and proclamations as we’ve clearly seen even in our own lifetimes. Some are very clear. Others are not clear. I’m the kind who needs clarity. And not the kind of clarity that says put yourself in the ‘occasion’ or else you’re out.
Again, thanks for the question and civility.
The story about Pope Liberius and St. Athanasius that the traditionalist tell to try to justify themselves is not a true story. The stories about traditionalists vs. modernists are not true. You do need clarity, but when someone spells it out to you, you get offended. In stead of reading the SSPX website, read the Catechism. I know you don’t understand what modernism it. If you did, you would know that the Catholic Church can never and will never teach modernism. Do you understand why modernism is the synthesis of all heresies? Do you understand the error which modernism rests on? You are struggling with concepts that you don’t understand and jumping to false conclusions because you have imbibed the errors of schismatics. You can always trust the Church. You can always trust the Pope. You can always trust the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Ann Malley, it takes years, sometimes decades, to understand some things in the Church. Remember St. Thomas Aquinas who said that he regarded all he had written as straw. This is infinite stuff. Take your time, but please stick with official Church publications or long-respected authors. If you do not understand something, pray to the Holy Spirit and ask for understanding. Remember your guardian angel is with you to guide you. Ask him or the Blessed Mother to permit you to see as they see. I hope you have the entire Bible and the Catechism. There will be parts that are not clear simply because you have not yet reached the point of understanding. Very important to pray the Rosary daily. I experienced some of the things that you experienced and I know that it is hard to tell sometimes whether things are trials or temptations. I remember a long time ago being afraid that the new Mass offended God but was very reassured that it did not. But it required going to it and letting God be God.
Again, Anonymous, and now tradCath (thanks for the name), please understand or try that understand that I have not been Catholic for only a short time. I do not read exclusive SSPX documents. Neither do I read exclusively diocesan approved materials. You all seem to have read nothing whatsoever of what I’ve written here, save for keying in on SSPX and going into defense mode.
As for understanding modernism vs. tradition, Anonymous, do the reading yourself. Better still, talk to people who have lived it. All of it. For while moving around has been a cross for me, it has also been a tremendous blessing. (Albeit at the moment, I’m not eagerly anticipating the next relocation…. grr)
“…You are struggling with concepts that you don’t understand and jumping to false conclusions because you have imbibed the errors of schismatics.” The Society is not in schism, Anonymous.
That said, the above may have been your experience. You may have approached the SSPX like some eager cult follower, but I have seen the modernism allowed in the Church. I and many others I know, clerics included, have been a victim of it. (Yes, a victim, Anonymous.) And while the Church may not advocate outright modernism in her official teachings, what those entrusted with her care have allowed to occur regarding the withholding of Truth from the faithful is shameful and damaging. Perhaps not to you. I don’t know. I do not know you.
But neither do you know me. So if you have specific questions you’d like to ask me, go ahead. In fairness, however, I would ask that you respond to direct questions as well. Sadly, the questions I’ve posed to Anonymous posters usually get dismissed, called out as schismatic (for the temerity of asking), and or twisted into the same old party line of see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil.
I am somewhat back and forth about this but I do agree with struxton about not participating with SSPX functions. But we can pray that some day one of our Popes will work with them to have them re unite with the church. That would be the right thing…..helping them return and unite. That should be our goal!
Since some parishes have those awful ecumenical councils where they encourage others to attend Methodist, Lutheran functions in ecumenical efforts why are they so much punishing SSPX and yet they allow protestant churches to participate in what they call ecumenical efforts? This is hypocritical to me. It sounds to me that the lukewarm ecumenical efforts are actually watering down Catholicity more while they judge SSPX for trying to maintain it. This infuriates me, this kind of injustice and hypocrisy!
Me too, Abeca. Me too.
No one punishes the SSPX. They do not want to be in full communion with the Catholic Church. They do not agree with some of the doctrines of the Catholic Church. That is why they do not call their chapels Catholic. Bishop Fellay wants the Church to condemn the Mass and some things in
Vatican II before they will rejoin the church. The Church’s position is that they can’t change doctrine for anybody. I am sure that any member of SSPX is welcome to join the Church in any function-ecumenical and otherwise. It is they who reject the Church.
You punish yourself, Anonymous, with your ongoing assertions of that which you do not know:
Nobody in SSPX was concerned with changing doctrine, Anon. Clarifying it is the proper term. (That said, there are many in full communion who would change the official dogma on Purgatory – as if it means nothing.)
The Society was ready to hop on board, but only asked:
1) The “freedom to correct the promoters of the errors or the innovations of modernism, liberalism, and Vatican II and its aftermath.”
This is what Traditionalists across the board pray for. This is what those ‘in communion’ do in private if nothing else.
2) The “exclusive use of the Liturgy of 1962.”
Again, what Traditionalists already have.
3) The “guarantee of at least one bishop.”
This is meant as a preservation of the Society. Get modernist Bishops and Tradition dies.
4) The possibility of having a separate ecclesiastical court of the first instance and the exemption of the houses of the Society of St. Pius X from the diocesan bishops.
Again, the majority of Bishops are against Tradition. Not because Tradition is wrong – no – but because modernism is so much easier and in vogue.
As for rejecting things, it is you who rejects intelligent dialogue. There are theologians far more knowledgeable than you who see the above as gray area and do not make pronouncements anywhere close to that which you say so cavalierly.
The Bishops are supporters and defenders of Apostolic Tradition. There are no modernist bishops.
Some say that you wish Rome to recognize that the ordinary rite is illicit; can you tell us more on this point?
We know very well that it is very difficult to ask the authorities to condemn the new mass. In reality, if what needs to be corrected were corrected, it would already be a big step.
It can be done by an instruction from the Congregation for the Divine Cult and the Discipline of the Sacraments. It’s not that complicated, really. I think that important changes need to be made because of the serious and dangerous deficiencies that make this rite condemnable. The Church could very well make these important corrections without losing face or undermining her authority. But at present, I am aware of the opposition from a number of bishops to the Pope’s legitimate request that the translation in the Canon of the Mass of “pro multis” by “for all” be corrected and replaced by “for many”, since the former translation which can be found in several languages is false.
Would you like to say anything about Vatican Council II?
As far as Vatican II is concerned, just like for the Mass, we believe that it is necessary to clarify and correct a certain number of points that are either erroneous or lead to error. That being said, we do not expect Rome to condemn Vatican II any time soon. She can recall the Truth and discretely correct the errors, while preserving her authority. Nonetheless, we think that the Society contributes to the Lord’s edifice by denouncing certain disputed points.
Concretely speaking, you know that your demands will not be answered overnight.
Absolutely, but little by little they eventually will be, I think. And the time will come when the situation will become acceptable and we will be able to agree, even if that does not seem to be the case today.
Bishop Fellay Kansas City 2013 https://www.cfnews.org/page88/files/14e8cf27a431ca52105cf70b45567b82-149.html
I told them from the start in September the previous year that we cannot accept this ‘hermeneutic of continuity’ because it is not true, it is not real. It is against the reality. So we do not accept it. The Council is not in continuity with Tradition. It’s not. So when Pope Benedict requested that we accept that the Second Vatican Council is an integral part of Tradition, we say, ‘sorry, that’s not the reality, so we’re not going to sign it. We’re not going to recognize that’.”
“The same for the Mass. The want us to recognize not only that the [New] Mass is valid provided it is celebrated correctly, etc., but that it is licit. I told them: we don’t use that word. It’s a bit messy, our faithful have enough [confusion] regarding the validity, so we tell them, ‘The New Mass is bad, it is evil’ and they understand that. Period!’” Of course the Roman authorities “were not very happy with that.”
He continues, “It has never been our intention to pretend either that the Council would be considered as good, or the New Mass would be ‘legitimate’”.
Interesting Anony but the fact is that no one is inviting any from the SSPX to participate from any of the local Catholic Parishes near by….also your argument does not shed the reality because even the Lutherans and Methodists refuse to join with our church, that is why they are protestant. But they are invited to participate, in all my involvements in the church, I have never heard of anyone inviting the SSPX to participate…so without facts you are just throwing stuff in the air without any facts to back them up. Personally I can’t say what you just posted because it is just not the reality where I am from.
Well anyhoo….I don’t ever attend any SSPX functions but I sure pray that something can be done to bring them back and we pray for their hearts to be open to it. Our church leadership needs to be more humble and more welcoming as well. But this refusal of them not wanting to unite with the true faith is troubling to me…it makes me question if they are lead by so much pride. But I can’t make those judgements because I don’t really know the whole facts from both sides, we just hear from 3rd and 4th parties but not from direct sources I suppose.
But to help matters, Anony does bring up some valid points too….at least he or she is trying to defend the fact that we do need to persevere with fortitude and remain faithful to the Magisterium, other rites have and are and still keep to their tradition, so I don’t see why the SSPX can’t do that either. We can’t excuse them of their moral duty as well….their refusal to re-unite does come of as prideful to me. How is the different from any protestant sect?
Staying helps us in our efforts in becoming more virtuous….deleting instances that may lead to pride and lack of meekness. Other rites do stay….take a look at the Ukrainians, they do have married priests as well and but have a beautiful Mass……and are in union with Rome….how about the Caldean Rite? Etc etc
Anonymous, I thought that the founder of the SSPX was punished with Excommunication. If you don’t think that this is punishment enough, then I imagine you really must have HUGE problems with those who like to call themselves faithful Catholics all-the-while opposing Church doctrine with regards to contraception, abortion, sexual practices, and marriage!
Excommunication is a medicinal remedy, not a punishment. He occurred a latae sententiae excommunication for violating canon 1382. And yes, I do have huge problems with Catholics who support contraception, abortion, all sexual practices outside of traditional marriage and some sexual practices committed within it and same-sex unions, divorce and remarriage, etc… I think people should learn the Faith and obey it, whether they like it or not, understand it or not.
Anonymous, ok, so if excommunication is not a punishment as you say, then what would you propose a proper punishment to be? Are we talking about burnings at the stake? I suppose if it were centuries ago then this would be the proper punishment. Yikes, I guess we really do live in modern times! (but then again, Martin Luther and King Henry VIII were not burned at the stake, so I am still not sure what you mean by punishment.)
Hey Anony good for you on the comments you made on November 18, 2013 at 4:03 pm. Amen to that. The only thing is….there are several Anony posters…I don’t know which one are you….oh well…..only God knows your heart and I pray that it is genuine. But excummincaiton is only a punishment to the person who brought it upon themselfes….I guess it depends on how one views it…..or what the church intends….but it is to help the person from getting into worst sin? It must be for the good of person, an act of true charity. I guess I still have more to learn on said subject.
CCC 1848 As St. Paul affirms, “Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more.”118 But to do its work grace must uncover sin so as to convert our hearts and bestow on us “righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”119 Like a physician who probes the wound before treating it, God, by his Word and by his Spirit, casts a living light on sin:
I was just told that Any involvement in Errant Groups such as SSPX (Lefebve) St. Michael the Archangel Chapel Sede Vacantist groups
Feeneyite Groups Dignity Catholics for Free Choice
Call to Action Voice of the Faithful Fatima Crusade (Fr. Gruner)
Army of Mary (Community of the Lady of All Nations) We Are Church
*any other heterodox, heretical, or schismatic groups, that it should be confessed.
Tracy, the Church, not I, “punishes” them with suspension. These things are meant to be “wake-up calls”. I know if a priest told me I could be excommunicated or suspended or be given an interdict for doing something, I wouldn’t do it. Sometimes, a suspension can be reversed. One instance where it can not be is in the case of child sexual abuse. Excommunications and interdicts can be lifted when the person repents. Sometimes suspended priests who have said illicit Masses are excommunicated although the ones I remember hearing about were priests who were vocally in favor of women’s ordination. Suspension is to protect the church and the faithful. The Church is a Mother; She is not vindictive. She has a duty to defend and uphold the Faith handed on by the Apostles.
No modernist Bishops, Anonymous? Really?
Abeca, thank you for your post, but again such advice depends on the priest to whom you are speaking. Thanks again for all your kindness and true charity!
November 18, 2013 at 4:06 pm
The Bishops are supporters and defenders of Apostolic Tradition. There are no modernist bishops.
Anonymous, It is wrong to tell a lie. Lying offends God. Lying is counter-productive and harms the fullness of Truth. Since when does Apostolic Tradition include an Archbishop comfortably writing a book (Rembert Weakland) that exposes his scandalous departure from the fullness of Truth? What putrid environment gave way to foster, pave such protected permission for such a destructive evil to take place. It was a Modernist environment that allowed this kind of twisted thinking to comfortably unfold and develop. Your hiding is in keeping with sweeping evil under the rug. This hiding of evil did not work when bishops were confronted with the sex abuse scandals and your denial of Modernism’s current destructiveness within the Church will not work with Almighty God. You are deliberately ignoring at your own peril the fact that God sent his Mother to warn consecrated souls to stop COMPROMISING.
Compromising the fullness of Truth = Modernism
Cardinal Arinze told my friends in Kentucky that their ( now retired) bishop was VERY bad. = A Modernist
Our previous bishop sent out a memo to all priests in our diocese supporting homosexual domestic partnership = A Modernist
When my friend’s daughter traveled to Rome to speak with a prelate in the Vatican about the heterodoxy being allowed he told her that our area was a huge can of rotten WORMS and that Catholics needed to study the faith because they were on their own when it came to being taught the fullness of Truth = Modernism
St. Joseph Foundation Conference held in Fresno Charles Wilson told the audience, “Rome knows how BAD it is they are waiting for the laity to speak up.” = Problem is due to Modernism
Fed-Up Catholic Bishop Leaves Democratic Party for GOP After 44 Years, … Bishop Tobin now a registered Republican, turned off by Dems’ 2012 campaign.
The hour is late but praise God that this *one* bishop at least openly admitted the truth regarding his 44 year affiliation with Modernism. Once again, forty four years of just one shepherd’s candid honesty about being affiliated with political forces that support grave evils. It is not in the deceptions of political parties that one finds salvation or the Truths to attaining Eternal Life. This is why Christ established His True Church on earth. Each bishop is the father of the diocese. If the priests in a diocese are on public record donating money to political forces of evil without correction from their father then the father is negligent in his responsibility to correct this most destructive form of Modernism.
Our bishops who are still affiliating themselves with political forces should reflect on Bishop Tobin’s example. While 44 years can do much damage, this bishop could have remained silent and kept this action to himself. There are bishops who are still remaining complicit with those political forces who are promoting grave evils instead of remaining always faithful to the fullness of Truth. These consecrated souls should be much more concerned if Almighty God is FED UP and this is why he mercifully sent his Mother to warn them to stop COMPROMISING.
Catherine, your comments are not specific enough to tell us what exactly they did that you think is modernism but they are all retired so I stand by my post.
Thank you, Catherine, for sharing the facts. And for demonstrating true zeal for and fidelity to the Good God!
What do you think modernism is?
Anonymous writes: “They are all retired so I *stand by my* post.”
Yes, and before many retired they quickly promoted like minded pastors to become monsignors and then these monsignors were promoted and many are currently bishops. Birds of a like minded feather, flock and promote their own agendas or partial truths together.
A physician is not supposed to idly stand by and watch a blockage in the transfusion of life saving medicines. The Divine Physician wants the Fullness of Truth transmitted to his sheep.
Once again, St. Augustine said that before the devil can destroy you he must first deceive you. Jesus asked his apostles to cast out their FULLNESS OF TRUTH NETS and become fishers of men. You may use your selective loyalty to “stand by YOUR post” but a faithful apostle will remain firmly *standing at the foot of the Cross.*
The traditional Latin Mass is referred to as the Extraordinary Form. That implies that it is not the usual way to celebrate the Mass. Some, but evidently not many, Catholics prefer this form of the Mass and they should have convenient access to it. If the TLM is not available in their area they should attend the regular Mass in their parish or travel to another city. That being said, it is incumbent on those who prefer the EF Mass to do what they can to support a separate parish if they want to have ready access. “Going to Mass” is really not enough. It is in community that we are saved. It is in community that we grow in spirit. It is in community that we become strong in our faith. Ergo, those who want to have ready access to the TLM should find a place to rent, pay the salary and living costs of a Priest who knows the rite, establish the faith formation program and recruit members to the parish and tithe to support the parish. When a church has several hundreds or thousands attending the regular rite, it is hard to get excited about supporting a Latin Mass for a hundred or less adherents.
Bob One this story must fill your liberal heart with joy….We are saved by the Christ sacrifice on the Cross, not your liberal interpretation of “community”
For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” (Matt. 18:20)
Christ did not demand a gathering multitude. It shouldn’t matter if there are “a hundred or less adherents.”
Furthermore, Jesus Christ (and His disciples) never taught, “It is in community that we are saved. It is in community that we grow in spirit. It is in community that we become strong in our faith.”
We are saved by communion with Jesus Christ through the Holy Eucharist, and the Universal Church (Triumphant, Militant, and Suffering), not by the local community. The local community is nothing without a connection to Christ, the true vine, through the branch of the bishop.
St. Ignatius of Antioch explained this clearly:
“See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.” (The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, Chapter 8)
Jesus also made it clear:
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6)
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.” (John 15:5)
Jesus Christ founded the Church to bring all men to eternal salvation:
“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me. And I give them everlasting life; and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand.” (John 10:27-28)
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit enables the Church to teach, to sanctify, and to govern the faithful in the name of Christ:
“But when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will teach you all the truth. For he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he will hear he will speak, and the things that are to come he will declare to you.” (John 16:13)
“He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” (Luke 10:16)
The Holy Eucharist, which is the Bread of Life, is our salvation, not the community:
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.” (John 6:53-58)
Bob One, that is precisely what those who need the Traditional Mass and desire the Faith, full and entire, are doing sans supporting the Novus Ordo. As for ‘getting excited’, that’s your problem. The Faith is about Truth not excitement. Salvation is also not dependent upon ‘Community’.
Thank you for outlining most clearly many of those issues that are driving those who seek the Faith away from, not Holy Mother Church, but the new order mentality.
Bob one your comments came off negative to me towards those who value the Traditional Mass…..was it really necessary. Lets be sensitive and sensible here….we are not to divide OK. Maybe that is why they don’t want to unite with us because they don’t feel like we appreciate and love what is dear from tradition. Its been at least a few months since I attended Mass at our local Latin Mass in San Diego, last night we finally were able to attend the 6pm Mass. It was beautiful and the homily was solid. I was grateful that they have confessions during Mass. What precious gems…I can see why they fight for keeping it……it is a precious pearl….
Priests please move down to Fresno. We are ready
I find it astonishing that the faithful who attend the TLM are on trial. The utterly deplorable ignorance of Novus Ordo enthusiasts as to the sacredness of the venerable Latin Mass over the banal, irreverent, and doctrinally diluted new rite is a pity and a shame. It does not take much, even without the research, to see that the new rite is a concession to false ecumenism. Just compare the words of consecration. That is enough. And the pathetic so-called Offertory of the new Mass is outrageous. “He took the cup!” As opposed to “He took the most excellent chalice into His holy and venerable hands.” And why the relocation of “the Mystery of Faith” inserting it AFTER the consecration, when the “Mystery of Faith” refers to the UNBLOODY Sacrifice that is being effected with the consecration of the wine. It does not refer to His “coming again.” He is here NOW, on the Altar. This is an outrage to relocate these holy words putting them in a different setting. From St. Gregory the Great to John XXIII the canon was untouched. CANON means a “fixed law.” Now we have four Canons. And the mini-canon (#2) wins just about every time in the typical parish church.
READ THIS PART AGAIN AND AGAIN BECAUSE HERE IS THE PROBLEM, RIGHT HERE:
“I will say this: even in the best of times, when we had willing priests who had respect for this rite, there was never any effort on the part of the clergy to promote the Extraordinary Form to the rest of the parish, or even to educate people about it…. There was never any attempt to create or support an integral Catholic devotional life centered on this liturgy – or even awareness that such a thing exists.”
This is NOT surprising and even though I am forever thankful to Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI for Summorum Ponificum, I’ve always felt that he should have order ALL priests to learn the Latin Form of the Mass and then order a Latin Mass in ALL Catholic parishes in the world to offer at least one Tradentine Mass on their weekend schedule (AT LEAST ONE) so that there would never be a shortage of priests who knew how to celebrate the Latin Rite; this way it would have been easier to educate Catholics that it is right to attend both the Novus Ordus Mass for those who prefer it, and it is still alright to attend the Latin Mass because this is the Roman Mass, the Mass the Saints prayed, the Mass of Always and that we should feel privilege to have it back, to learn it back to experience it.
The Tridentine Mass or the Latin Mass as it is known is HEAVEN ON EARTH!
Let’s get this straight, the Mass of the Saints, the Mass that was offered for over a thousand years, codified at the DOGMATIC COUNCIL OF TRENT and solemnly Infallibly declared for all time by SAINT Pius V is now called the “Extraordinary Form” and the Mass prepared by a Committee of SIX Heretics (Protestant Ministers) and two very liberal probable Masons members of the Hierarchy is now called “Ordinary Forum”.
One has to be completely blind not to see the insanity of that!
May God have mercy on an amoral Amerika!
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founding Director
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.
Hey Ken. The Holy Father’s new family synod has been labeled an “Extraordinary Synod,” from what I hear. The interpretation of ‘extraordinary’ in this case being ‘urgently needed’. In light of present realities, I’ll opt for the urgently needed definition.
… that is urgently needed Latin Mass!
oh that’s totally brain dead. Once you cut yourself loose from the barque of Peter, you just get pushed around by the waves and the wind. Dumb!
Obedience in all but sin and the occasion thereof.
As to the barque of Peter, the new teaching authority is all about explaining how and why those who aren’t visibly attached to the barque really are. So which is it? Are you a traditionalist who believes outside the Church there is no salvation or a modern magisterium devotee who believes everybody is in the Church???
Get with the program Anon. If you’re going modern, go ALL THE WAY and have the courtesy to be consistent.
It is very obvious that you do not know Catholicism. You do not know what modernism is. You do not know the teaching of the Church not the history of the Church. I cannot get with your program. I would go to hell if I did. Of course, there is no salvation outside the Church. If you understood the Church, you would understand what it means. The Catholic Church does not teach that everybody is in the Church. The Catholic Teaching has not changed. I have seen many of your posts and those who try to tell you that you are really ignorant of the Faith. I have seen you fall back on false ecumenism to justify yourself and to invoke your “right of conscience” to do whatever you please. Do you know about culpable ignorance? John 15:  If I had not come, and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.  He that hateth me, hateth my Father also.  If I had not done among them the works that no other man hath done, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated both me and my Father.  But that the word may be fulfilled which is written in their law: They hated me without cause.
Of course there is no salvation outside the Church. It is impossible for there to be because there is no savior other than Jesus Christ. In order to be in the Church, one must be baptized. The magisterium of the Church teaches this. it does not teach that everybody is in the Church. Whatever group or individual told you that cannot be trusted to give you factual information concerning the Church.
Anonymous posters – thank you for your concern. Despite your acts of charity in trying to help, it is obvious that you are confused as to how to truly help someone. Having a name so that others can try to get a handle on your position(s)- all of them save your selective condemnations of those you perceive to be in error – would be very helpful. But there is no discussion for you. No discernment. No laying yourself out to be vulnerable. Nothing but judgment.
Instead, you skulk from thread to thread tossing about proclamations without even having the fortitude to identify yourself. You even condemn others on other threads who seek to speak charitably with me. (Might not be you in particular, anon, but do you see the point?)
That said, while you assert that I do not know what Catholicism is and/or what modernism is, you seem to not know what common courtesy is. For all of your cleaving to the teachings of the Church and the post VII magisterium, you cannot even get with the program of our current Pope and reach out to folks where they are. You toss arrows from hidden locales instead of addressing the fullness of issues.
That is why I will forget asking for consistency from you because there is consistency. That of hiding, accusing, copiously looking at other poster’s comments so you can attack from the shadows. While quoting scripture, of course.
As to the last of your quotes: ‘ But that the word may be fulfilled which is written in their law: They hated me without cause.’
If you firmly believe that there is no cause for loathing what the current state of Church affairs is, Anon, then there is no dialoguing with you. You are truly blind. Blind to the whole of the issue, blind to the needs/wounds of others, blind to the outright nastiness of your persistent collecting of ammo against others while shielding yourself with full communion and anonymity.
God bless and thanks again for whatever ‘help’ you intended to give.
The No Salvation outside the church is correct because if we truly believe that there is only on true Catholic and Apostolic Christian church, then we know that when we die everyone of good will, becomes part of Christ’s Catholic church….in heaven there is only one faith…..JESUS CHRIST…..Praise Be His Holy Name…AMEN!
Well said, Abeca. Souls of Good will ARE part of the Church. And whereas many try to say they know with certainty, not you of course, what the intentions of the SSPX are, they cannot and do not know.
Indeed, Anonymous, you may go to Hell, whether you follow my supposed program or not. You need to follow your conscience as it is formed and follow the lights of grace that God provides you.
And yes, Anonymous, I do know about culpable ignorance. Do you? Do you turn a blind eye to all that is amiss under the cover of obedience? If you think I choose the harder road – and it is hard to be beaten upon by you or commute to a solid mass instead of just opting for the NO at the corner – because it is what I choose willy nilly, then you are truly misguided.
Our Lord, despite what you believe, sees the heart. You, however, do not it seems.
abeca, no!!!!! Souls of good will are not part of the Church. Baptism is necessary. And Ann Malley, I am sorry that you feel beaten upon. Maybe it is the Lord trying to get through to you. You come on to a faithful Catholic website and tell lies about the Church and condemn the Most Holy Sacrifice of Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. You promote falsity and, to be honest, you have been very rude and nasty. The things you have said and the way that you have said them are very offensive to Catholics. Maybe you can excuse yourself by saying “I follow my conscience.” I follow my conscience and try to tell someone that they have been duped.
“And Ann Malley, I am sorry that you feel beaten upon. Maybe it is the Lord trying to get through to you. You come on to a faithful Catholic website and tell lies about the Church and condemn the Most Holy Sacrifice of Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. You promote falsity and, to be honest, you have been very rude and nasty. The things you have said and the way that you have said them are very offensive to Catholics.”
1) You have an odd way of expressing sorrow.
2)Perhaps Our Lord is calling you to true charity and understanding so as to be a better evangelist.
3)Just because YOU don’t know something doesn’t mean it is a lie.
5)Christ in the mass is the main point of the mass. That said, my desire is to see Him fully honored whatever the rite. Much in the NO leaves room for the exact opposite.
6)Rude and nasty and reactionary seems to be all you do know.
7)You have no authority to speak on behalf of the Catholics on CCD. Including myself.
8)And what you do is excuse yourself by way of the ‘full communion’ argument as if you are the only one fighting the ‘good fight’.
I’ll follow my conscience and say, stop duping yourself. Until those with a love for the fullness of Truth unite – and not necessarily under the visible construct of modernist Bishops who do their darndest to squelch the Truth – there will be NO unity.
That said, there many sins outside of the ‘full communion’ you seem stuck on that lead to Hell. And if you won’t listen to me, listen to Tracy and Abeca – get a name. Otherwise, your hounding me comes off as personally driven harassment and not true conviction.
Even so, thank you for your good intentions. And please, if I seem to be unkind to you, know that it is only magnified by my inability to respond ‘to you’ with the same accuracy as if you had a name.
Anony now you bring up Baptism? Of course we need Baptism…no one is saying that we don’t.
As the author of the above entry let me make one thing clear: given the assumptions that prevail in this diocese (e.g., that permitting the TLM is a pastoral concession to a special interest group and an additional burden for an already overworked clergy) I do NOT fault St. John’s for this decision. The clergy didn’t want it, and the parishioners didn’t want it. So why continue with it?
The TLM is never going to win a popularity contest. It’s physically uncomfortable, it’s too quiet for most people, its doctrine is uncompromising, and its spirituality is arduous. Until the clergy begin to love the TLM for its own sake, and to actively integrate it into the life of the parish – because it is God-pleasing and good for souls! – many diocesan TLMs will be short-lived. If you look at successful diocesan TLMs around the country, you’ll see that pastors are actively and continually educating their flocks, dispelling myths and stereotypes, promoting TLM-friendly events and devotions throughout the parish, and doing what they can to encourage all Catholics to become familiar with this venerable liturgy. Furthermore I don’t believe it is right to force a priest who viscerally dislikes the TLM to celebrate it. That’s a recipe for disaster, and that’s what ultimately happened in Chico.
Finally, I want to make it clear that we owe Fr. Blaise Berg and others a debt of gratitude for providing the TLM in Chico. They are fine priests and acted with great generosity towards a community that must have seemed like a foreign country in some respects. My words were a defensive response to Fr. Nondorf’s letter which seemed to place full responsibility at the feet of those who attended the TLM. I apologize sincerely if my words smacked of personal ingratitude.
“I don’t believe it is right to force a priest who viscerally dislikes the TLM to celebrate it.”… I think the same should be done for those priests who viscerally dislike the NO mass….
I agree with that, Canisius.
One question why was my comment shortened?
Was it because we there was no room accepted on the blog or was it because it was modified?
Hmmm…seems this is a job for either Fraternity of St. Peter or Institute of Christ the King, Sovereign priests. Wonder if Bishop Soto would be willing to turn over a parish in that area to either of these Religious Orders of Priests who celebrate the Extraordinary Form. It would be an asset to the diocese because the parishes staffed by these priests thrive! To say nothing of the young families who belong to these parishes. Worth the drive…
At one time I preferred the Latin Mass but seeing that I didnt understand the language what I was saying or singing I enjoy the novos order Mass. Jesus also spoke in the language of the people.
Mary, I can relate to your sediments. I have heard from those who grew up hearing the Mass in Latin, who where at first very happy when they were told that the Mass would now be offered in the vernacular. These tell me that were beyond shocked and deeply saddened when they discovered that far more than a change in language had been imposed on the new Mass. That being said there were probably far more who not only liked hearing Mass in the vernacular, but loved the fact that the “silence” of the Mass was also abolished. I would love to see the Tridentine Mass offered using the English translation provided with the Missal period!
Mary, the Lord Jesus did speak in the language of his people at that time, Aramaic, but he also had to speak Hebrew as the Temple services were in Hebrew, at least the reading of the Scriptures and probably the responses. Hebrew is still used by Orthodox Jews for services, although it is considered a dead language, like Latin. One of the reasons dead languages are chosen is because they no longer change and, therefore, are more concise for theological purposes. I am not against having Masses in the vernacular, but I do love to go to the Traditional (Extraordinary) Mass at times since I have a more contemplative personality (don’t like a lot of noise all the time); most of the sermons are excellent and I like Latin. That is neither good nor bad, just me.
And the Latin language is the official language of the western Church, so there is a need for some Latin Masses.
I think this is just representative of what is to come, the beginning of the end of the EFM as Summorum Ponificum was openly published as a 3-year experiment, and its chief outward supporter is now sitting on the bench. I question the equivalency of the EFM to the TLM, as the TLM is based on a one-year Church Calendar as opposed to a 3-year NO calendar. So how did the modernists balance the EFM Church Calendar with the 3-year NO Calendar?
It saddens me to read how the arrogant modernists who try to come across as Canon Law lawyers criticize the SSPX and judge them so harshly for worshipping the way our ancestors were worshipping God for nearly 20 centuries. As a NO member for 20 years seeing its demise and implosion with all the liturgical abuses, modern priest pedophiles, wolves in sheeps’ clothing, and the millions who have lost the RC faith, I prefer to stand-by the SSPX who hold rigidly to the faith of our Fathers before all the reformations of V2. Our Lord said, you will know them by their fruits, and much of what I see is a basket of spoiled rotten fruit. Why did Our Lord say this if it were not for His acknowledgement that we can see right from wrong, and warn us about sheep wearing wolves clothing if it weren’t possible? This isn’t a matter of judging souls as so many modernists defending the reformations and reformers do to discredit traditionalists. Doesn’t anyone believe in the Biblical prophesies of the Great Apostasy when a great number of the Church, even the elect leave/have left the true faith?
Traditionalist are unique among fallen away Catholics because they seem totally unaware that they have left the Church. Fallen away Catholics always have reasons why the Catholic Church isn’t good enough for them or good enough for God. Praying for all.
Not all Traditionalist, Anonymous. Clearly, Dr. Alice von Hildebrand, the wife of the deceased anti Nazi hero, Dietrich von Hildebrand, is a Traditionalist who accepts the proper interpretation of Vatican II and does go to the newer Masses when they are according to the Vatican approved rubrics.
Dr. Alice Von Hildebrand is a Catholic and a good Catholic. Traditionalists are not those who attend the TLM. They are those who reject the Church since Vatican II and will not attend a Catholic Church. Sometimes they call themselves Traditional Catholics or Roman Catholics. They establish their own chapels or sometimes just have a priest say Mass in a hotel meeting room. There are sedevacantists who believe that the Pope is an anti-pope. There are sedeprivationist who believe that the popes since Vatican II have been guilty of heresy. There is a lot of arguing and splintering among these groups. Some of their errors are leaking into the Church and confusing good Catholics. One needs to really know the Faith.
All this petty babble, after all “there is no Catholic God”!
Anonymous, there are some people who call themselves “Traditionalists” or more traditional who are not sedevacantists, and who go to approved Latin Masses and are a part of “Ecclesia Dei”. I believe that type of “Traditionalists” applies to Dr. von Hildebrand, as I am sure she attends the Old Latin Mass at times, if not most of the time, and prefers the English interpretation of the older Mass for the most part. Her husband, before he passed away, wrote many fine books expressing his disapproval of the abuses that went on after Vatican II. I do not think he believed that the altar rails should have been taken out of Catholic churches, etc. Dr. Alice von Hildibrand’s books and articles can be found on line.
Keep preaching from your supposed tower of full communion and safety, Anonymous. There is nothing unique about that…. or Catholic. Prayers for you.
Can. 1364 §1. Without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 194, §1, n. 2, an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.
And one whose faith is tepid and dead incurs hellfire, Anonymous – despite the wrappings of canon law.
Anony what garbage you post! I see that the Pelosis of this world usually think they are more Catholic…..and they are not from the Traditional element of the faith….stop spewing garbage please….its OK if you prefer the NO mass over the Latin Mass…fine but to write what you say, you stereo type without actually understanding yet the Traditional element of the faith seem to have much facts of what went wrong and have evidence of abuses that have been permitted in our own parishes, which is shameful to admit, that is why we are in so much spiritual trouble today. I’m not saying that the traditional element of the faith is perfect but at least I don’t hear any abuses coming from their Mass….and if there were, it would probably be rare. Lets respect both Masses, Jesus is there…..but I like to believe in my heart that both sides can be holy and reverent if they understood and feared the Lord.
abeca, I am so sorry that I offended you. I think that you misunderstood. I never disrespect Holy Mass in any rite or form. Again, I am speaking of traditionalists as those who will not go near a Catholic Church, have formed their own Churches and declare themselves the True Faith. I, at times long for what they have. Old-timey Catholicism, cut and dried, black and white, Latin Mass, Baltimore Catechism. I try to live like the Church has always taught so I would be very comfortable going to these churches (although I do not think they should tell their members not to go to pro-life events-not all do this, just some.) But they are schismatics (and I am really not talking here about SSPX or even those who say “we will obey the Pope in all that we agree with”). SSPX and other traditionalists are not as extreme. We have been chosen by God to live in and be faithful in very difficult times which I imagine are going to become more difficult. The world needs the witness of faithful Catholics. It is a grief to me that people make the assumption that because someone stands up for the Catholic Church, they must be a modernist or someone who does not accept traditional morality. I realize that people are very poorly instructed in the Catholic faith and that they have big issues with the Catholic Church. They do not know what they do.
Anonymous, thank you for sharing some of your struggles. That said, due to my own situation, that of trying to bring former heathens (my own family) into the faith, it became paramount for me to find that which was black and white. Elsewise my ‘little ones’ would be scandalized. And they were. Again, you have no idea.
While I understand and RESPECT your struggle to remain within the Church, Anonymous, and fight the hard fight, it has been a ‘hard fight’ for me as well. The ‘full communion’ lure is a strong one. A tormenting one. And yet where is my duty when I look upon those of my flock that need Baltimore Catechism because they are too young (spiritually) to wade through all of the NONSENSE afflicting permitted specifically by sins of omission if nothing else inside the modern church?
” We have been chosen by God to live in and be faithful in very difficult times which I imagine are going to become more difficult.”
Indeed you are correct. That said, if you are truly appalled that posters who defend the Church are attacked, take a look at what other ‘Anonymous’ posters are actually saying. If you wish to defend your position, one that is HIGHLY defensible according to what you just wrote – give yourself a name. The attacks you perceive with vanish.
Anony you didn’t offend me, you offended good people like Ann. But it does hurt me when someone from our church offends those whom they consider Traditionalist, or whatever people want to describe them. Especially since they practice traditions from our faith since the beginning of our beautiful Christian faith.
Well anyhoo Apology accepted. But it is us who need to apologize to them for our insensitivity in regards to their love and convictions of that element of the faith.
I just think that in order to unite, we need to understand and value their love for Tradition. It is part of our church history…..I felt that some of your words towards those who attend the Latin Rite Mass, was offensive and divisive. I respect Ann and pray for her to become union with the church and it should begin with our concern and prayers that our church leadership work towards uniting with those who love their mass. I am not one to judge them so harshly, but I am one who wishes that our church leadership step up to the plate and bring back these precious brothers and sisters who hold strong conviction to Tradition because this is what my generation needs and lacks and also my kids generation as well.
And thank you, Abeca. I pray God continue to bless you abundantly! That way you can pray all the more fruitfully for the triumph of the Immaculate Heart :)
abeca, excuse for butting in, but …why did you not admonish Ann Malley when she said that there was nothing Catholic about being in full communion with the Church?
To clarify, Anony:
“Keep preaching from your supposed tower of full communion and safety, Anonymous. There is nothing unique about that…. or Catholic. Prayers for you.” was said in reply to your comment:
“Traditionalist are unique among fallen away Catholics because they seem totally unaware that they have left the Church. Fallen away Catholics always have reasons why the Catholic Church isn’t good enough for them or good enough for God. Praying for all.”
You were painting Traditionalists with a broad brush, to say the least, and discounting the struggles, lives, and love of Holy Mother Church of those whom you do not know under the cover of ‘full communion’. That is not charity, Anonymous. It is precisely not Catholic to use ‘full communion’ as a beating stick which is how your posts have come across.
Read Catherine’s posts and you will get a taste of just how much true abuse occurs under cover of ‘full communion’.
Jerald, when you say ” I prefer to stand-by the SSPX who hold rigidly to the faith of our Fathers before all the reformations of V2,” you are simply ignoring the fact that episcopal ordinations without the permission of the Holy Father are called, by him, schismatic acts. One can’t go around doing schismatic acts while at the same time claiming to hold rigidly to the faith of our Fathers. Moreover, your statement implies that the faith of our Fathers before all the reformations of V2 is a different faith than what we preech now after the reformations of V2. It is quite clearly not. There is but One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.
It clearly is different, YFC. Do the homework. And please, try to recall the answers you’ve received to such comments before. You know what thy are. You know that the excommunications were lifted. They were lifted not as a friendly gesture, but because it was right to do. Implying anything else would impugn Benedict XVI who would certainly not expose the faithful to such a risk – even if he expected the SSPX to accept the terms put forth during the Vatican/SSPX talks.
Yours is a circular logic that forever resorts to, “It’s the same, it’s the same, it’s the same.”
If that is true, please, for the love of Heaven, answer me how is it that the Church prior to Vatican II regarded Martin Luther as a heretic, the father of schism, but is now planning to party down in his memory come October 2017??? How is it that we’ve had Papal Koran kissing? Papal Shaman blessing receiving? Buddhists holding rituals in Catholic Churches no less? Catholic financial support for abortion and birth control? Catholics voting for politicians who endorse all of the above?
No change? Come on. Are you serious? Well, perhaps the SSPX just needs to stick around long enough and then all will be well.
So Ann, in this extant case: If a bishop ordains another bishop without the permission of Rome (assuming the local authorities and technologies allow communication between the Cathedra and the Roman See), is that a schismatic act, or is it not a schismatic act?
If the Bishop ordains, say a woman, without the permission of Rome, is THAT a schismatic act?
If the Bishop ordains, say, a priest who disavows communion with the Pontiff, again without the permission of Rome, is THAT a schismatic act?
The schismatic act that you accuse Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre of committing was executed during a time of Church crisis, YFC, and for the purpose of defending/preserving the Mass that was never abrogated. A fact that was conveniently hidden by the powers that be. There was no innovation and/or changing of teaching involved as there would be in the ordination of women.
Please do not try to legalistically mince theology with me in order to ‘catch me out’. Not when you didn’t even respond to my kind answers to you regarding the centrality of the Tabernacle in the ‘…ad orientem shocker’ thread.
Those posts took my time and were meant in all charity, YFC, to pass on what I have learned. And here you are, trying to catch me out…. I don’t respect that.
Something wrong does not become right because there is a “crisis” in the Church. Stop spilling your Kool-Aid on us.
You still haven’t answered my question about the turn around regarding Martin Luther, Anonymous. Why is that? Drinking a different brand of ‘full communion’ Kool Aid.
Stop spreading your blind obedience that does nothing to help leadership, but rather aid in guiding the flock to Hell. I wonder how you would have behaved in Nazi Germany – then again, I don’t wonder.
This explains it:
Also you do understand that a person who has never been Catholic cannot be a Catholic heretic, right?
I have tried not to make things personal. Sorry, the Kool Aid line was uncalled for. I prayed for you at Mass. I felt that God told me to leave you alone and that it will be a long time before you understand. He showed me a Prayer to One’s Guardian Angel for Daily Protection throughout Life which I will share with you:
“Dear Angel, in His Goodness, God gave you to me to guide, protect, and enlighten me, and to bring me back to the right way when I go astray. Encourage me when I am disheartened, and instruct me when I err in my judgment. Help me to become more Christ-like, and so some day to be accepted into the company of Angels and Saints in Heaven.”
Anonymous, thank you! What a kind post. And thank you for your prayers – you have mine, too. As to your definition of what makes a heretic, it will hearten you to know that my family at least does not fall under this title. Why? Because I corresponded to where the Spirit and logic and location and circumstance led me.
Had I followed your proscribed route, none of them would be baptized. Not a one. At least not for an exceedingly long time and that, Anonymous, was the conundrum with which I’ve been faced. It is not a lack of understanding that leaves me where I am, Anonymous. But, as I’ve said, circumstance. Much of which is wholly beyond my control despite my earnest desire for the opposite.
Thank you too for the Martin Luther info. That said, this sums it up:
“…But today, even if they have come to an understanding on many core issues of faith, Lutherans and Catholics remain divided on matters such as the role of the pope, women’s ordination and homosexuality.”
It is just such a convoluted contradiction of what is Truth that led my husband declare he would NEVER be Catholic. That is until we found the Tradition. That is why I am forever grateful to the SSPX for laying inroads where there were none. Thank God. And thank you again.
” Stop spilling your Kool-Aid on us. ” = Real Translation….”Stop reminding everyone of what we thought we had totally gotten rid of. The Fullness of the Truth.
What do you call a teacher who teaches the Confirmation class, ” Is it fair that on account of just ONE MAN (and then writes and points to the word POPE on the blackboard) that my relationship with those I love can go no further?” What do you call it when the same person working with the diocese holds a seamless garment parish meeting and teaches the trusting sheep, “Did you ever see Jesus get on a donkey and ride to Rome to ask permission for anything?” This same individual told a large group of Catholics that you really do not need a Tabernacle in the Church at all. What do you call someone who denies belief in the Real Presence in order to remove Tabernacles. What do you call a shepherd who does not guard his flock? Father Hardon warned us about the assault on the Real Presence and this is the same individual who mocked and undermined the Pope to a Confirmation class. This same teacher also taught that Jesus went to the desert for forty days to figure out what he wanted to do with his life. This individual is just one of the many who are still being paid and allowed to destroy the faith of trusting Catholics, all while saying, “I am in full communion.”
Why are our bishops allowing wolves to devour the sheep? May God and his Blessed Mother guard, protect and unite all of the scattered and starving sheep! We are praying for Pope Francis to please allow the faithful to have faithful priests and teachers who do not undermine and destroy the Teachings of the Catholic Church while falsely claiming to be in “full communion.”
Thank you, Catherine, yet again for the concrete examples of that which is completely contradictory. That’s why I cannot follow anyone – even well intended posters – who would hold that there is no crisis in the Church. And a very grave one at that.
I would pray that the Holy See would poll those disaffected Traditional minded Catholics in addition to those in irregular family situations. Those I have met want nothing to do with ‘living in the past’ ‘turning back the clock’ or ‘black and white solutions’. They are merely Catholic seeking that which had always been so prior to a very divided and misleading VII.
YFC writes: ” One can’t go around doing schismatic acts while at the same time claiming to hold rigidly to the faith of our Fathers.” = Posting as YFC on a faithful Catholic website while proclaiming the faithfulness of your committed homosexual relationship. Not good! You deserve better. You deserve the fullness of the Truth. God desires our eternal happiness in heaven but your posts inform us that you are choosing the exact opposite. Perhaps your teaching instructor made up a whole new false religion that is designed to encourage you in your temptations and define your relationship with God based on the full acceptance and embracing of your temptations. We have learned that this false teaching is often taught and embraced.
YFC, This is the internet and we do not really know if someone is a shill for the homosexual agenda or tragically a poorly catechized pot who is unknowingly calling other kettles schismatic. My common sense tells me that no one in their rightly catechized mind would ever be able to write what you do unless you #1 Work as a homosexual activist or #2 Whoever taught you the faith is a *dissenter* from the faith of our Fathers who has made up and taught you many false teachings that you have embraced. If your story about yourself is true then you were never properly taught to hold the faith of our Fathers.
Catherine, of course everything in your life revolves around homosexuality. This is the sort of obsession I have pointed out to you before, and now that Pope Francis has instructed us about letting obsessions get the best of us, I’d have hoped that you would start to listen to the Pontiff. He is trying to build bridges, and these obsessions just get in the way of his sacred work.
YFC OK…now the question for you is what did you learn from that built bridge? Are you willing to walk to the side where the church stands on all moral issues…or are you just gonna pick and choose….to my understanding Catherine is in good standing with the church. But are you in good standing? Just asking? I’m curious because you have accused Catherine of being obsessed? Can you elaborate more and clarify? If you preach at her about that, does that mean that you have a change of heart and are willing to join in the good fight….after all it takes the “I’ in each person to help spread the truth and it takes participation to embrace the truth and live it …..
Douay-Rheims Bible Luke 9:23
“And he said to all: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.”
“Catherine, of course everything in your life revolves around homosexuality.”
No you are very wrong YFC. Everything in my life does not revolve around homosexuality. Our lives should revolve around seeing the truth. Many of our shepherds have not allowed the fullness of the Truth. Pope Francis has not changed any of the teachings of the Catholic Church yet in many parishes the fullness of the Truth is seriously neglected because homosexuality is still being more protected than the authentic teachings of the Catholic Church. This prevents the truth from being taught. YFC, You do not support or uphold the authentic teachings perhaps because you have never been taught, nevertheless you still want to be understood and yet YOU are now accusing others of doing schematic acts. Pope Francis never intended for YOU to revolve your posts around accusing others of doing schismatic acts. The healing lies in the understanding and the acceptance of the fullness of the Truth which you continually refuse to acknowledge.
Abeca, when a person changes every conversation into conversations about homosexuality, that’s a pretty good idea that they have an obsession with homosexuality. If a person cannot have a conversation with a gay person and only sees them for their homosexuality and can only converse with them about homosexuality, and proceeds to completely ignore the rest of what they are saying, then I’d say that they have an obsession about homosexuality. If a person can’t even so much as open their mouth when the other person changes the subject IMMEDIATELY to one of homosexuality, that’s a sign of obsession. Have you ever noticed, that this describes Catherine to a tee?
If someone posted on CCD advocating church approved second marriages, YFC, and then put forth that they were a faithful Catholic, I daresay, Catherine would call out the inconsistency of their ‘full communion.’ So while it may seem to you that she is obsessed with homosexuality, that is not the case. It just happens that you, from what I’ve read, have advocated a shift in Church teaching on that particular subject.
I cannot recall if it was you or Good Cause who intimated that the Church could not heal the wounds without having doctrine on the table. ( i.e. a person in an abusive marriage just has to get on board with leaving the church or being alone. ) It is this kind of rhetoric that is being called into question.
The idea of temporal comfort being higher or at least on the same level with striving for Christian perfection. It is not. That is why the Catholic life is hard, but not impossible with God’s grace.
continued to my post from November 19, 2013 at 8:49 am:
YFC Just say that it bothers you when she does that but stop accusing her of obsession….that word is very much abused and misused. But to give you credit, to explore it in a more positive understanding, it would mean that St, Paul was Obsessed, Our Lord was obsessed with dieing for our sins, even when we refused to see them and to die of our selves….Mother Theresa was obsessed with the poor…..but coming from you it comes off as negative but to the reality to Catherine’s actions they are geared towards positive.
YFC what is wrong with a good challenge here and there….one that challenges us to move to the direction that saves and helps us abandon our sinfulness that blinds us? There is nothing wrong my friend, nothing because salvation matters….Praise Be Jesus Christ!
I just completed a private retreat at Guadeloupe Monastery in Silver City, NM. To experience the TLM celebratred by the Benedictine monks and to pray with them the Divine Office was indeed inspirational. The sad thing which is tragic, most priests detest the TLM as they have Luther’s idea concerning the Mass. It is tragic that “the most beautiful thing this side of Heaven” will soon disappear from this location. With th prayers of many, hopefully the Mass will return. To the priests who have been celebrating the Massfor the people, I say ‘ thank you, and may God reward you for giving the people the opportunity to attend the TLM”.
Fr. Karl, I think more people would go to the TLM if their spouses agreed. Quite often one spouse will prefer the vernacular version, so the other spouse must go to the TLM by himself if he cannot get his wife to go to the TLM and vice versa, so they do not go as often. It can get confusing, too, crossing back and forth between the different Saints days, or ordo, of the liturgy. What is good about crossing back and forth, nevertheless, is that one gets to honor some of the older saints, that were taken out of the new liturgy, along with some of the newer ones. Many older saints were taken out so the newer ones could be put into the newer Liturgy, as I am sure you know.
Our Lady of Guadalupe Monastery in Silver City, NM is affiliated with the SSPX.
Funny, whenever the TLM comes up on this blog the Modernists come out full force, for people who hate The True Mass of All Times they sure have alot to say about it. If you don’t like the TLM then ignore these stories, and keep attending your “man made” innovation services, with giant puppets, hand holding, the childish kiss of peace, altar girls, dancing girls, felt banners, dinner table in the middle, female lectors, guitars, drums, tamborines, dancing girls in leotards, the True Mass of All Times has never changed it is the Sacrifice of Calvary not a Broadway show like the Novus Ordo is. Thanks for Cal Catholic for bringing these stories about the TLM in their blog.
First of all, Holy Mass does have the sign of peace. That is part of the prayer. You will not find dancing girls in leotards or giant puppets or a dinner table in the middle (can we be more blasphemous?). You may find hand-holding during the Our Father (although most do not), altar girls, female lectors, guitars. Drums and tambourines? I don’t recall ever encountering those. The Mass is a prayer. It is not a Broadway show. I really have never seen anyone on this website attack the TLM. Those who do attend the TLM often attack Holy Mass. Whether you like it or not, it is the same rite and the same Sacrifice as the TLM. Imagine how offended God is by what you wrote. The OF is no more man-made than the EF.
Anonymous, while it is true that at the majority of Masses you will not find “dancing girls in leotards”, sadly you will find “dancing girls” during so-called special Masses. The Los Angeles Tidings had a picture of such “dancing girls” performing during the offertory, at an October 17, 2013 Mass for school children celebrating the missions, at the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels.
You will find the picture at the end of the article in the bottom right hand corner.
Janek my heart goes out to you…..I understand your frustrations. I pray for our Lord to bless you and give you peace…your prayers are being heard….God is good. But don’t let the negative stuff get to you, there are still good holy and faithful solid NO masses out there. Its not all bad…..Christ is there…..feeding us who do care about truth and our faith.
There you go again! Read what the church says about the NO and the TLM:
Lastly, in faithful obedience to tradition, the sacred Council declares that holy Mother Church holds all lawfully acknowledged rites to be of equal right and dignity; that she wishes to preserve them in the future and to foster them in every way. The Council also desires that, where necessary, the rites be revised carefully in the light of sound tradition, and that they be given new vigor to meet the circumstances and needs of modern times.
We have been through exactly the same cancellation earlier on this year. A new parish priest took over San Juan Buenaventura Mission and the Latin Mass stable community was expelled after 15 years of every-Sunday masses. We had 280 posts on this here at Cal Catholic Daily.
The name of the Ventura priest was Fr. Thomas Elewaut, who defined himself as a “Vatican II priest”.
I am so sorry that this happened to you, Gratias.
I’m grateful that we have the Latin Mass in San Diego…I attend there when I can. So I feel sad and understand their loss. I also attend my Arabic parish and N.O. one in Escondido, which is holy and true because it has a wonderful devout pastor. I also like the Ukrainian Mass, they practice the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom…it is very holy and reverent too.
I have been exposed to many different rites that are in union with Rome, that I feel so blessed.
You are blessed! But, which parish do you belong to? I guess I wonder what it is like to attend Mass at so many different churches and not belong to a parish in which you become involved with worship, personal growth, hospitality, faith formation, etc.. Does all this moving around nourish your soul? If it does great! For me it wouldn’t work. The only time that I attend other parishes is when on vacation or when the weekend schedule dictates it. But, that’s me!
Glad I enticed your curiosity. Years ago….I was teaching Woman’s bible studies, in one we were elected for their parish counsel, in another I collected petitions to try to end partial birth abortions, in another we organized some home schooling events etc….currently we have had changes because our pastors were moved and we haven’t gotten use to the new pastors….our sons are alter servers in one parish, they did attend CCD in the Latin Mass parish but weren’t sure if they can be alter boys there because they didn’t understand Latin, so we remained parishioners in the other parish because they want to be alter boys there, and when we visit the Escondido Parish it is when we want to do a family trip and enjoy an all day outing. We are somewhat involved in all parishes except for the Escondido parish because we don’t live near by, but we enjoy visiting and attending Mass when their pastor is saying the Mass because our kids really get a lot out of his homilies. It is a blessing. We use to attend the Ukrainian mass and were very involved but they moved the pastor. and everyone we knew left because of it…they are small parishes so people don’t do well with changes I suppose. So you can say that right now we are trying to see where the Lord wants us to settle down at. We are waiting for an answer from the Holy Ghost…so keep us in your prayers but rest assured we are still part of all those parishes in small ways and we are fed well…we know a lot of people too. : )
THIS IS A FAITHFUL CATHOLIC WEBSITE! You are making it look like the National Catholic Reporter or Catholic Action or Dignity or Catholics for Choice. If you don’t like the Church, you would do better to keep it to yourself and avoid committing scandal.
Interesting! So maybe someone would care to explain why the Canonized Latin Mass is often illicit, whereas Gay “masses”, Lesbian “masses”, and “masses” with all kinds of silly and strange sermons are just fine?
“It was the Latin mass that got Dr. Harriet Murphy, a 53-year-old Brit and former professor of German Studies at the University of Warrwick…. As a young girl, Murphy was sent to a convent school where she received “a classical Catholic upbringing” by “highly-qualified sisters.” After graduating, she went on to study languages — and, eventually, to drift away from the Church. She spent time in America, where “my American friends called me a neocon. I would describe myself as conservative.”… And then she found the Church again. Murphy calls it “rebirth… a kind of Damascus experience.”
It was in Austria, on sabbatical, that she first stumbled across a Latin mass — and was overwhelmed by its majesty. “It can knock you off your feet and it certainly did. It was like another Damascus experience.”
As Murphy learned more about SSPX, she found more to like: the “order and dignity;” the “happy families, united parents;” the commitment to charity; the fired-up adherents… In Murphy’s telling, she “broke down” — swayed by allegations that the Church had failed and was failing, and by her own sense that it had “become liberal and wishy-washy.” …Today, her thoughts have changed. “They stole me for fifteen years of my life,” she says, of “the sect.” Murphy says the group is describes a kind of indoctrination — fueled by a radical (and, she now believes, incorrect) reading of Catholic texts. SSPX, she says, “can fill you up when you have been a wanderer and lost your mooring… You would really need to be quite clever and sharp to see the errors.”
From Salon…”Meet the Catholic Extremists Who Could Shatter the Church” 11/17/13 edited to comply with editor’s requested word limit
That article was a hit job from secular liberal who writes for Salon.com, the source itself is anti-SSPX and anti-Catholic
This is extremely important: From Pope St. Pius V from the Catechism of Trent, the universal Catechism used prior to the CCC:
ARTICLE IX : “I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH; THE COMMUNION OF SAINTS”
With what great diligence pastors ought to explain to the faithful the truth of this ninth Article will be easily seen, if we attend chiefly to two considerations.
First, as St. Augustine observes, the Prophets spoke more plainly and openly of the Church than of Christ, foreseeing that on this a much greater number may err and be deceived than on the mystery of the Incarnation. For in after ages there would not be wanting wicked men who, like the ape that would fain pass for a man, would claim that they alone were Catholics, and with no less impiety than effrontery assert that with them alone is the Catholic Church.
The second consideration is that he whose mind is strongly impressed with the truth taught in this Article, will easily escape the awful danger of heresy. For a person is not to be called a heretic as soon as he shall have offended in matters of faith; but he is a heretic who, having disregarded the authority of the Church, maintains impious opinions with pertinacity. Since, therefore, it is impossible that anyone be infected with the contagion of heresy, so long as he holds what this Article proposes to be believed, let pastors use every diligence that the faithful, having known this mystery and guarded against the wiles of Satan, may persevere in the true faith…
The Church has but one ruler and one governor, the invisible one, Christ, whom the eternal Father hath made head over all the Church, which is his body; the visible one, the Pope, who, as legitimate successor of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, fills the Apostolic chair…
It is the unanimous teaching of the Fathers that this visible head is necessary to establish and preserve unity in the Church.
Regarding Article IX from the Council of Trent …and what happens when the visible head departs from the unity of the Church?
The visible head-the Pope-cannot depart from the unity of the Church. You can always trust the Pope.
Regarding validity of SSPX confessions please read this article from the May 15th issue of THE REMNANT:
This article is a “deep dive” into Catholic Church Canon Law granting priestly faculty and jurisdiction to administer the sacraments – particularly for confession/absolution. As is stated in the article, the Churches primary mission to save souls. It is imperative to keep this in mind for understanding the brilliance of the Canon Law.
It is interesting that “Anonymous” is reading hit-pieces on the SSPX by (of all sources) the far-left, pro-abortion mag “Salon” and find this is solid documentary journalism. What is Salon (and for that matter, Anonymous) afraid of? If the SSPX is a silly little cult, it will die out; if it is not, it would be wise to follow Gamaliel’s advice to the Pharisees in Acts 5:33-40: “For if this plan or this work is of men, it will be overthrown; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You may even be found fighting against God.”
Steve Phoenix, I thought the story was worth posting. I posted the source because it is the right thing to do and because I knew the source was not an orthodox Catholic one. I found it on a Google search. I do not read Salon. I am not trying to overthrow the SSPX. There are many people who post here who attend non-Catholic traditional parishes. They have free will and I do not wish to take away their free will. I want them and everybody to have the best information available with which to make their decisions. I am a Catholic and this began because I defended the Catholic Church from someone who was saying false things about it. It is not OK to say that the Catholic Church teaches something that it does not teach or to say that it does not teach what it does teach. I am sure you will agree with that.
Give yourself a name or else your posts will continually be misconstrued with the sea of Anonymous who do nothing but post a mishmash of contradiction. That said, if you truly believe as you have stated above, I would love to hear more of what you have to say. But sadly, my understanding of ‘your position’ will always be tainted by that which is unclear. Much like my understanding of what comes forth from the modern church is unclear. Not in her writings. Not precisely. But in practice on the parish level to be sure.
kanonymous writes, ” I am a Catholic and this began because I defended the Catholic Church from someone who was saying false things about it. It is not OK to say that the Catholic Church teaches something that it does not teach or to say that it does not teach what it does teach.”
Father Guarnizo WAS defending the teachings of the Catholic Church when Barbara Johnson was not given Holy Communion after introducing her “lover” to Father Guarnizo before Mass. Instead of supporting Catholic Church teaching you reported that Father Guarnizo also had difficulty getting along with the parish staff. = More kanonymous machinations taking place.
Machination mach·i·na·tion n.
1. The act of plotting.
2. A crafty scheme or cunning design for the accomplishment of a sinister end.
Catherine God bless you….you are awesome! I praise Jesus that we still have faithful like you, because its sure nice to see someone have common sense, someone who can reason well even amongst all the craziness from those who call them selves Catholic.
Unreasonable doubt about the morality of an act done or to be done. Its basis is an erroneous conscience combined with a lack of control of the emotion of fear.
The habit of imagining sin where none exists, or grave sin where the matter is venial. To overcome scrupulosity, a person needs to be properly instructed in order to form a right conscience, and in some cases the only remedy is absolute obedience (for a time) to a prudent confessor.
An erroneous conscience when the mind is unduly swayed by fear and judges that something is wrong that in fact is lawful.
All items in this dictionary are from Fr. John Hardon’s Modern Catholic Dictionary, © Eternal Life. Used with permission.
The devil can cite the Catechism better than anyone in the room.
Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle.
Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray;
and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host –
by the Divine Power of God –
cast into hell, satan and all the evil spirits,
who roam throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls.
I have done my Catholic duty to defend the faith. Traditional Catholics know that we can not keep company with the insolent and those who are in schism or rebellion against the Church. This used to be a faithful Catholic website, but those who brawl against the Church seem to be taking over.
May God hear your prayer and send St. Michael to rebuke those who war against his Holy Church.
I give, Anonymous. You have indeed brought me to the light on one very important aspect of the Faith and Pope Francis and what it means to be Catholic. I used to reject the notion that *any* Traditional Catholics were, in reality, little more than narrowly focused Triumphalists. Sadly, your writing below:
“…Traditional Catholics know that we can not keep company with the insolent and those who are in schism or rebellion against the Church.”
…has schooled me very clearly that I was wrong on this point. Thank you, I suppose, for disillusioning me. Unfortunately, the attitude you put forth will do little to unify, but rather scatter those who would otherwise come together to defend Our Holy Mother Church.
God bless you for your precise and clear thinking, Catherine. Methinks Fr. Hardon must be interceding for you. Our Lady surely is.
“…Traditional Catholics know that we can not keep company with the insolent and those who are in schism or rebellion against the Church.”
Ann Malley, Thank you for addressing that very revealing quote. The illusions ARE the dark forces that have been comfortably allowed (in many facets within the Church) to put forth a Catholic front. As you can clearly see, these same forces are not the least bit interested in the Fullness of Truth or the Fullness of Joy in pleasing Jesus by the uniting of His scattered sheep. Ravenous wolves have scattered the flock and these are our fellow Catholics who also desire to faithfully serve God while being faithfully and fully equipped for battle with the Fullness of Truth. It is not Traditional Catholics that these forces hate. It is Jesus Christ Crucified, who IS the Fullness of Truth that is hated. Anonymous coddled and ran interference for the poor soul of a rebellious insolent activist who consistently distorted Church teaching. Selective amnesia about coddling rebellion is more than transparent. The father of lies will use all and any of our weaknesses to gain a strong foothold in the battle of Truth vs anonymous darkness.
These are the same hidden forces have been keeping company with the disobedient and the insolent since Revelation 12:4 “And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son.” Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible
I have busted my brain trying to educate this poor woman so that she and her husband and children whom she led out of the church will come to unity with the Fullness of Truth and the One True Faith while you have been an accessory to her sin.
9 ways of being an accessory to another’s sin
I. By counsel
II. By command
III. By consent
IV. By provocation
V. By praise or flattery
VI. By concealment
VII. By partaking
VIII. By silence
IX. By defense of the ill done
And once again, the attendance of the TLM even in independent parishes is not a sin.
Thank you, Catherine, for wading through the fog so faithfully and with such a bright and warm light.
Busting your brains is not what is necessary, Anonymous, to preach/teach the Faith, but rather Charity, Patience, the courtesy of an actual Name, and the Fullness of Truth. That and, most importantly, the grace of God. Not an attitude of superiority and absolute blindness that has you citing rules and guidelines without anything of the love of Christ crucified or an open acknowledgement of that which is common knowledge – that being the gross crisis afflicting our Holy Mother the Church.
As to ‘leading my family out of the Faith,’ you are still under a misconception. You seem to have read none of my other posts save for SSPX which has set off alarm bells for you.
I pray your evangelizion methods may change regarding the others you encounter, beginning with yourself when you look in the mirror. For whereas you state that your efforts are directed to bring folks into the fold, your attitude here has done nothing but prove the Triumphalist accusation leveled by Pope Francis. That said, I’m glad for your example if only to know first hand that what he has said has basis in truth.
God bless you.
O What a Tangled Web We Weave When at First We Practice To Deceive.
Let’s be perfectly clear about who YOU are trying to educate. Pope Francis has asked us to be consistent in word and manner of life.
You have a posting pattern of undermining = (intimidating) faithful priests by educating them or cleverly reminding them ( anonymous Bubba) just how viciously they will be assailed for simply upholding the Catholic Church’s teachings regarding homosexuality. Couple that machination with a history of inconsistency or selective “busting” and it becomes quite clear that YOU are the individual who is leading others away from the Fullness of Truth as well as undermining the Church’s credibility.
“Inconsistency on the part of pastors and the faithful between what they say and what they do, between word and manner of life, is undermining the Church’s credibility.” ….Pope Francis
To correct the wrongdoer is a spiritual almsdeed. But almsdeeds are works of charity… Therefore fraternal correction is an act of charity.
…The correction of the wrongdoer is a remedy which should be employed against a man’s sin. Now a man’s sin may be considered in two ways, first as being harmful to the sinner, secondly as conducing to the harm of others, by hurting or scandalizing them, or by being detrimental to the common good, the justice of which is disturbed by that man’s sin. Consequently the correction of a wrongdoer is twofold, one which applies a remedy to the sin considered as an evil of the sinner himself. This is fraternal correction properly so called, which is directed to the amendment of the sinner. Now to do away with anyone’s evil is the same as to procure his good: and to procure a person’s good is an act of charity, whereby we wish and do our friend well. Consequently fraternal correction also is an act of charity, because thereby we drive out our brother’s evil, viz. sin, the removal of which pertains to charity rather than the removal of an external loss, or of a bodily injury, in so much as the contrary good of virtue is more akin to charity than the good of the body or of external things. Therefore fraternal correction is an act of charity rather than the healing of a bodily infirmity, or the relieving of an external bodily need. There is another correction which applies a remedy to the sin of the wrongdoer, considered as hurtful to others, and especially to the common good. This correction is an act of justice, whose concern it is to safeguard the rectitude of justice between one man and another.
St Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Believe your faith. Live a simple humble life without meanness, malice or falsehood.
Like I said – provided you are the infamous Anonymous I’ve been stalked by – say that to yourself every morning in the mirror. If you don’t have one, I suggest you invest quickly and look inside yourself. Or at least keep track of your own name so that you can look back and read what you actually write and what you supposedly hold in Faith.
If you are a different, Anonymous. Excellent advice. And that is precisely what I do. God bless :)
To each its own but I still prefer the novus ordo Mass. A Mass should be either in english or latin but not both . I find that not all the the novus
ordo Masses are noisy some are very pious and low key. It just depends what church you attend.
It was Good Cause (under comments re. the story entitled “Heal the Wounds, Heal the Wounds”) who espoused (“Good Cause, Nov. 18, ’13): “You can’t heal the laity’s many wounds unless some of the teachings of the Church are on the table; like birth control and divorce.” Good bye, Humanae Vitae (1968), good bye Casti Connubii (1930), hello Pope Francis Synod 2014. Oh, but Catholic doctrine will not have changed.
Pope Francis on “progressives”
Posted on 18 November 2013 by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf
This morning Pope Francis didn’t exactly sound like a reader of the National Schismatic Reporter (aka Fishwrap).
Or… on second thought… mayhaps he did read it!
“God save us from the “hegemonic uniformity ” of the “one line of thought”, “fruit of the spirit of the world that negotiates everything”, even the faith. This was Pope Francis’ prayer during mass this morning at Casa Santa Marta, commenting on a passage from the Book of Maccabees, in which the leaders of the people do not want Israel to be isolated from other nations , and so abandon their traditions to negotiate with the king.
They go to “negotiate ” and are excited about it. It is as if they said “we are progressives; let’s follow progress like everyone else does”. As reported by Vatican Radio, the Pope noted that this is the “spirit of adolescent progressivism” according to which “any move forward and any choice is better than remaining within the routine of fidelity”. These people, therefore , negotiate “loyalty to God who is always faithful” with the king. “This is called apostasy”, “adultery.” They are, in fact, negotiating their values??, “ negotiating the very essence of being faithful to the Lord .”
“And this is a contradiction: we do not negotiate values??, but faithfulness. And this is the fruit of the devil, the prince of this world , who leads us forward with the spirit of worldliness. And then there are the direct consequences. They accepted the habits of the pagan, then a further step: the king wrote to his whole kingdom that all should be one people, and everyone would abandon their customs. A globalizing conformity of all nations is not beautiful, rather, each with own customs but united, but it is the hegemonic uniformity of globalization, the single line of thought . And this single line of thought is the result of worldliness . “
An International Traditional Catholic Weblog
Pope personally calls Traditional Catholic writer, says he considers it important to be criticized
“Yes, it’s true. I received the telephone call by the Pope. It happened two weeks ago, November 1st, All Saints. But I naturally kept it to myself. No one was supposed to have known it, it was a conversation of an absolutely private nature. But considering that the [news] agencies have mentioned it…”
Mario Palmaro, the Italian traditional Catholic writer and journalist who has authored many books and articles together with his friend Alessandro Gnocchi (many of which have been posted in translation here on Rorate) told Italian daily Libero about the fact. In September and October, after a very critical article published in Il Foglio, Palmaro and Gnocchi were summarily fired by Catholic broadcaster Radio Maria after several years of work in the station.
The phone call, Libero describes, was first reported by Traditionalist website Papale Papale with no mentioned names, and then by VinoNuovo, which mentioned Palmaro, who is currently very ill, by name.
Palmaro’s declarations to Libero on the matter are all mentioned below:
“It bothers me that the news has been made public, and if it had been up to me, and Alessandro, to whom I revealed it immediately, it would never have been known. Also because the Pontiff obviously had no intention that his gesture be made public, as well as the contents of our conversation”.
continued from November 19, 2013 3:37 pm post above
An International Traditional Catholic Weblog
Pope personally calls Traditional Catholic writer, says he considers it important to be criticized
“Pope Francis told me that he was very close to me, having learned of my health condition, of my grave illness, and I clearly noticed his deep empathy, the attention for a person as such, beyond ideas and opinions, while I live through a time of trial and suffering.”
“I was astonished, amazed, above all moved: for me, as a Catholic, that which I was experiencing was one of the most beautiful experiences in my life. But I felt the duty to remind the Pope that I, together wih Gnocchi, had expressed specific criticisms regarding his work, while I renewed my total fidelity [to him] as a son of the Church. The Pope almost did not let me finish the sentence, saying that he had understood that those criticisms had been made with love, and how important it had been for him to receive them.” [These words] “comforted me greatly.”
Act of Dedication of the Human Race to Jesus Christ King.” PLENARY INDULGENCE when this prayer is publicly recited on the feast of our Lord Jesus Christ King. Otherwise the indulgence is partial.
Most sweet Jesus, Redeemer of the human race, look down upon us humbly prostrate before you. We are yours, and yours we wish to be; but to be more surely united with you, behold each one of us freely consecrates himself today to your Most Sacred Heart. Many indeed have never known you; many, too, despising your precepts, have rejected you. Have mercy on them all, most merciful Jesus, and draw them to your Sacred Heart. Be King, O Lord, not only of the faithful who have never forsaken you, but also of the prodigal children who have abandoned you; grant that they may quickly return to their Father’s house, lest they die of wretchedness and hunger. Be King of those who are deceived by erroneous opinions, or whom discord keeps aloof, and call them back to the harbor of truth and the unity of faith, so that soon there may be but one flock and one Shepherd. Grant, O Lord, to your Church assurance of freedom and immunity from harm; give tranquility of order to all nations; make the earth resound from pole to pole with one cry: Praise to the divine Heart that wrought our salvation; to it be glory and honor for ever. Amen.
If you like your Catholic Church and want to keep it around for the next 2000 years then attend the Mass of the Ages or Extraordinary Mass. If you prefer tambourines you made a bad choice.
Gratias, I agree totally with you, as the changes upon changes compound over the years, there may not be a single element in the modern church that looks like it ever originated from the Roman Catholic Church. If our great grand parents were to rise from the dead this Saturday and seek a Roman Catholic Church to fulfill their Sunday obligation, they would be appalled and walk right back out the entrance once the NO service had started, being startled that it wasn’t the TLM but rather a foreign celebration. They would be bewildered as to what happened to their Roman Catholic Faith and TLM and seek to find it, knowing they could not full well accept the NO service.
YFC, The first of the seven holy sacraments that was changed was that of Holy Orders. Check it out, and the major changes that were invoked. Learn about the impacts, learn about the history of the ancient Roman Catholic Church, and what liberals did to change it. Think about the impacts of the impacts and how they might explain the state of the modern church in which we see today, i.e. the loss in the faith of millions of catholics, etc. You probably aren’t old enough to ever have witnessed it and studied it like a few traditionalists on this website. Pray the rosary to see God’s Holy Truth.
Jerald, I don’t even understand the English in your sentences directed at me. Is a statement like “the impacts of the impacts and how they might explain the state of the modern church in which we see today” meant to convey something? If so, I honestly have no idea what you are trying to communicate. And, by the way, I am old enough to have witnessed the changes in the Catholic church. To be sure, I was quite young, and a protestant attending a Catholic school, but I was old enough. And if that makes me ancient, then so be it.
YFC, Your admittance to be a protestant but in a catholic school just destroyed what little credibility you may have drummed up amongst these readers. Attending a catholic school by no means gives a person a full picture of the Roman Catholic Church. I have a school boy friend of mind who was a protestant but attended my Roman Catholic elementary school on account that his parents thought he would be treated better there, and I suspect he was since they kept him there versus sending him back to the city’s public schools.
Your inability to comprehend what I am saying is a direct indication of your blindness to the truth. Pray the rosary that you will see God’s truth in how the huge changes in each of the 7 holy sacraments have impacted the Roman Catholic Church. Even the sacraments were impacted by changes in the other sacraments.
By ancient, I mean centuries old, i.e., centuries of steadfast (Roman Catholic faith, rituals, prayers, and way of life. I don’t think you are quite there yet.
Anomynous, There are two very key sentences that were deleted from that prayer to appease the Jews and the Muslims at V2. Those two sentences prayed for conversions of the Jews and Muslims and other pagans for conversion to the Roman Catholic faith, something which Jesus so directed when He told the Apostles to preach the Word of God to the ends of the earth. Jesus wants all people to be converted to Roman Catholicism. No other religion is the true religion. Ecumenism is wrong. Look in a Roman Catholic Sunday or Weekday Missal published before 1962, look up this Prayer of Consecration and you will see what I mean.
It’s sad, Jerald, to see our prayers stripped of that which is most critical to pray for and for Catholics to keep ever present in the mind and heart. Thanks for giving us all something to remember and PRAY FOR.
I am aware of them and pray them. But I chose to post the prayer that is in the current Enchiridion of Indulgences. Thank you for your post and for knowing this prayer.
Thanks for posting, Anonymous (not sure which one you are.) But the fact that you know and pray these prayers for Jews and Muslims while the ‘official’ prayer has taken this out is just another example of the powers that be cloaking the fullness of Truth. (And for what? Ignorance? Political Expediency? Or do Jews and Muslims – voila – suddenly, much like the poor souls in Purgatory, not need prayer anymore?)
How many generations will it take for *Catholics* to not *know* these prayers? And in turn, to cease all together their intercession to God for Muslims and Jews?
It likens much to the secular world wanting to discontinue teaching our children cursive writing when the very foundations of this country – the Constitution – is written in cursive. It’s too much like Animal Farm to bear.
God did not give you the keys nor say that what you declare bound on earth in declared bound in heaven. You want more authority that the Lord has given any woman on earth, even the Immaculata.
God bless you, Anonymous. If after all of my copious posts you still believe I’m into some power grab with the Pope or seeking to supplant the Immaculata, you’ve not a bit of understanding in you. At least not with regards to me. But you are zealous. I’ll give you that!
God love you for your efforts :)
It is obvious from the multitude of beliefs and opinions on this website, that we are not all one, i.e., Catholic. Being of one Catholic faith, means believing it in its entirety. No cafeteria types. No liberals. Any christians that do not go along with all of true ancient Roman Catholic dogma are protestants as they obviously by their own admittance do not agree with or follow all of the official teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. What does this mean when national polls have shown 2/3 rds of modern catholics (like nearly all protestants except some anglicans/episcopaleans) do not believe in transubstantiation, i.e., the Holy Eucharist is the true body, soul, and divinity of Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ?