The following comes from a March 4 posting on Father John Malloy’s blog site.
From Father Brian Costello’s pastor’s message in the Most Holy Redeemer parish bulletin of March 3, 2013:
“Two weeks ago, after Pope Benedict XVI had announced to the world that he would be resigning the office of Peter as of February 28th, I put the Pope’s picture, that usually hangs in the rectory, in the church. A handful of people told me that they would rather it not be there. They explained that the feeling was while he was Pope, as well as his time as a Cardinal, Pope Benedict had made hurtful and hateful statements regarding the LGBT Community and thus, his picture should not be placed on the altar of MHR. I was also warned, many parishioners would walk out of Sunday Mass if the picture was not removed. I spoke with a close priest friend of mine, and even though both of us were saddened by this, the wisest course, I felt, was to remove the Pope’s picture.”
Father Costello may not have realized it, but by putting a picture of the pope in Most Holy Redeemer Church, he was committing an inadvertent act of blasphemy. On August 28, 2007 we reviewed Father Donal Godfrey, SJ’s just-released book Gays and Grays: The Story of the Inclusion of the Gay Community at Most Holy Redeemer Catholic Parish. We wrote that Father Godfrey’s book “…shows that the authentic community-forming experience at Most Holy Redeemer Parish in San Francisco is not Catholicism, but homosexuality….
Note the parade of non-Catholic and anti-Catholic speakers at Most Holy Redeemer (a situation which appears to have improved under Father Costello). Whatever their denomination, what they have in common is the celebration of homosexuality. Such speakers include Father Godfrey himself; the Reverend Vincent Pizzuto, who left the Catholic Church to be ordained in a church that performs same-sex “weddings”; Episcopal Bishop Otis Charles, who “married” another man; open lesbian Episcopal Reverend Jane Spahr who celebrates same-sex “marriages”; same-sex “married” Episcopal Reverend John Kirkely; Ora Prochovnick, past president of San Francisco’s Reform Jewish “LGBTQ” Congregation Sha’ar Zahav; the Reverend Jeff Bart, from the homosexual-founded Metropolitan Community Church….
To read original posting, click here.
Really? Fr. Costello is asking his parishioners to forgive Pope Benedict XVI? Where is Bishop Cordelione?
I wonder where he is. In london perhaps?
Huh? Why would he put a picture of the Holy Father in the church just because he announced his retirement?
I can’t think of any church, offhand, that has a picture of a living Pope in it. I just don’t get why he would do this…and then of course remove it when people complained!
alot of catholic churches in the world have pictures of the holy father and bishops and their priest,
atlanta , ga.
There are plenty of churches that have a picture of the Pope inside the church! My gosh, what a statement. You need to get out more, Mackz.
Our parish priest took the very same action upon the Holy Father’s resignation. It was for the purpose of rendering honor to him for his years of leadership, and to remind us to keep the College of Cardinals in our prayers. What I don’t understand is why Father Costello caved in to pressure to remove it. If those complaining parishioners don’t respect Christ’s Vicar, and do not adhere to the teachings of the Catholic Church, they should take the honest and responsible action of removing themselves, and seek out for a denomination that professes their beliefs.
Did Father Costello suggest that all his parishioners read the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” – 2357, 2358, 2359, 2396?
Does Fr. Costello want his parishioners to get the Heaven?
Do the parishioners run the Parish in violation of the Code of Canon Law?
Fr. Costello must stand against all MORTAL SIN, even if it offends those who commit them.
It seems that Archbishop Cordileone has much work to do.
He has only been the head of the San Francisco Diocese for 4 or 5 months – but he sure inherited a mess.
It’s a mortal sin to object to a picture on an altar? Where in the catechism is this?
Stupid taking the picture of God’s chosen one away from the church is like slapping Jesus in the face. So sorry something so obvious need not be explain in the catechism.
‘Your Fellow Catholic ‘ You are not Catholic.
There is no evidence in your posts to show you believe anything the Holy Mother Church teaches. Instead in your arrogance you think you can instruct Christ and his Church on what to teach.
YFC wants the Church to conform to his depraved and disordered lifestyle…ain’t gonna happen senor!
Mbeca I am a catholic, and once again, instead of answering the question, you insult the person asking it. Where in the catholic faith are pastors urged to put pictures on the altar? Even protestants don’t put pictures on the altar except during a funeral service. So go ahead, attack me and my faith, rather than answering the question about pictures on an altar.
YFC — It is common practice to place pictures near the altar for All Souls Day and other times of remembrance and celebration. Our altar to the Blessed Virgin Mary has photos all of the time for years now of parishioners and their loved ones who are in the military or who have died in service to our country. Yes, there is the Catechism, but could we have a little common sense as well? A picture of a pope should be standard and not something that laymen take such umbridge with.
A good point, Horendo, and from the sounds of your name, i assume you are of mexican decent (forgive me if I’m wrong), and we know that Mexicans and mexican americans have a great love of the day of the dead/feast of all souls. So I take your point. I do think, however, that the practice falls under what church rubrics often call “local custom”, but the strict legalistic definition of the GIRM and the CCC probably does not allow for this kind of photo montage display.
My points about this picture are not to say that I am personally objecting to the gesture by Father Brian, (or to Day of the Dead photos) but only to show those CCD readers who seem uber-fastidious about rules that, in this case, the parishioners might have been right.
Mbeca? who is Mbeca???
OSCAR: You hit the nail on the head…….good for you.
Yes, he sure did…it will be an uphill battle for this wise and holy cleric…the “rainbow people” revel in their shame…it is their glory…
Please pray for Father Brian Costello! Offer a holy rosary; holy mass intentions for him…remember we must pray!
Best comment here! Pray!
Let the people walk out! If they are not followers of the Holy Father and in adherence to the Magisterium, they are not faithful Catholics. Priests and bishops who don’t teach this are partly responsible for the mess we are in. I pray every day for Abp. Cordelione — only with God’s help will be be able to persevere through all the problems left by his predecessors .
Peggy – Benedict is now the former holy father, and no adherence to him is warranted. In fact, adherence to a former pope would threaten the unity of the Church.
I said before and I say again – to disagree with a Pastor’s notion that a picture ought to adorn an altar where the Sacrifice of the Mass takes place is hardly a sin. In fact, I think it shows the proper place that the Mass has in the life of the Parish.
I did not see anywhere in the article that the picture was on the “altar” only “in” the church.
It is the blatant disrepect for Catholic teachings in that particular parish that bothers me.
Apparently you didn’t bother to read the article. The parishioners are clearly objecting to placing the picture “on the altar” –this is directly from the pastor’s announcement.
What more can be said about this ‘parish’? So much for crucifying the flesh. All they care about at MHR is their wickedness is given full approval. Should be interesting if Archbishop Cordelione will do anything about this. As the days of this world draw to an end, undoubtedly we will continue to see more of the apostasy evident here. Domine, miserere nobis. +JMJ+
A priest friend of mine recently said “when I give a homily, if someone doesn’t get up and walk out, I feel I’m not doing my job.
if someone walks out during a homily it could be because of truth being spoken and it has pricked that persons conciance. We need to pray for courage for our priests because things are going to get tougher for them an they need our support. But defenatly the church needs to be cleaned up
Why hasn’t Archbishop Cordileone closed Most Holy Redeemer parish? It is NOT a Catholic parish. It’s time that this haven for Sodomites is closed. I had hoped Abp. Cordileone would proclaim that his diocese would be managed according to Catholic principles, but that has not happened; it seems to be business as usual. How long will God tolerate this? What is the difference between MHR and the Metropolitan (homosexual) church?
The pope’s (the current one, whoever that was at the time) photo was always one of the first things a person saw upon entering the Church using the main door in every parish I have been associated with or visited. This parish needs the Archbishop to tell them that they have a parish because they are Catholic. Most Holy Redeemer has been problematic for a long time. It needs reform or closure. Father Costello needs to quit pandering and start acting like a spiritual father. Sometimes love must be tough, and this is a great example of where toughness is sorely needed.
it seems to me like the story of Moses. While he was on the mountain and the people could not see him, they decided to make a god out of gold. So they convinced Aaron to do so. They threatened him, if he did not. So he was persuaded by the people to make a image out of a calf. Well, it didn’t end so well after Moses came down from the mountain.
Three important things here: (1) why does Fr. Costello even listen to homosexual sexual “parishioners” regardless of their threats (except in a confessional)?; (2) there is no mention of Bishop Cordileone’s reaction, which is most important; and, (3) can Fr. Costello redeem his failure by using this as a teaching moment about the mortal sin of homosexual sex. Put another way, Fr. Costello is concerned about the wrong thing here — his concern should be on teaching homosexuall attendees of MHR that homosexual sex is a mortal sin which will be punished. He should then follow up by saying that the picture of Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI was intended to honor a Pope of intellectual, and moral, honesty, who spoke and acted out of love for homosexuals. Further, MHR will no long pander to its homosexual attendees, but treat them as real Catholics, subject to the same set of moral standards as everyone else. Come home, come to confession, be healed, stop your sin involving homosexual sex — that should be the message of Fr. Costello. Of course, the big question is Bishop Cordileone. He should institute a TLM every Sunday at MHR (and at every parish in SF), at a mid-Sunday morning time. He should personally appear at MHR and give a homily on why the Church loves homosexuals, but cannot accept — in any way — homosexual sex. And, that Benedict XVI acted out of charity for homosexuals. Many many will leave, but then Christ lost a large percentage of his followers when he talked of them “eating His flesh”. If not, then homosexuals run MHR and they should be given the keys to the Church. Stop the moral coddling Fr. Costello. You need to stand up, like a man, and preach the unpopular message of Salvation. And you will be reviled publicly for it.
Father Costello has the same situation that every priest has — a church full of sinners. He needs to admonish them on the things they need to renounce and the things they need to embrace in order to live impeccable lives and become saints. I am sure every priest would like to have a church where the parishioners only commit one sin — but they don’t and neither does Father Costello. Father Costello’s statement about the bigger picture is what he is dealing with now: How do we treat people who hurt us? This is Lent. We are supposed to be dealing with our own sins and how they have crucified Christ. Did the soldier on the left think that the nail he hammered into Christ’s hand hurt less than the one on the right?
In the long run, if one of the “parishioners” repents, it is worth it. The danger is that many, if they feel comfortable and accepted in their sin, will be lost forever. No real Christian wants that.
It would be difficult to hear that you are a sinner. That your whole life is based on a false premise. That what you do causes harm not only to yourself, but to society as a whole. I would not want to hear it especially if I gave money to the church and did good works for them. If I had been verified by the past leaders of my church with prayers, sacraments, and celebrations confirming who I am I would be angry with all who said I was wrong. I would call them evil and insensitive. Telling lies only begets more lies and leads good people into bondage with their sins.
That is a very good point and one of the best ways to explain that hot mess of a parish!
lisag, if you follow the example by Jesus, He let sinners know that they were “sinners”. He did not hide the truth. In fact Jesus was very strong.
I left the Church for many years because I took the attitude that “THEY” did not want me – at that time a sinner, and proud, and obstinate. Stupid me. Glad I finally saw that I was a SINNER.
Ignorance is not good, and can be sinful in itself.
Never let anyone remain in ignorance.
This is the thing: rebels should be placed in their places. Discipline needs to be restored. It’s not the rector’s job to do that, but the bishop’s. Let us pray that he does so sooner rather than later, with charity to all, and with firmness toward the recalcitrant.
I am so sorry for the people and priest of the parish… someone from that parish needs to be ok in prayer in front of the BLESSED SACRAMENT in reparation and to console our lord Jesus. Poor Jesus his own, just like the people in his time, slap him, spit on him, mock him.
The Fatima prayer comes to mind
Love your Jesus
It is all of us — not just them.
Father Costello is a very good Priest.
I pray for him everyday and I urge you all to do the same.
And as far as the AB goes, he has only been the AB since early October of last year, it is A BIG SHIP TO TURN AROUND!
Let us never forget that we have a formidable enemy. The spirit of distortion, deceit, confusion, corruption, and death is amidst us. He succeeds in striking the shepherd too and scattering the sheep. We need to be pure, holy, and dressed with the armor of God that St. Paul spoke of because “we are not fighting against human beings, but against the principalities and powers of darkness.”
Great we need this message to get out to our clergy. Jp said do not be afraid
Why is this cesspool allowed to function? Where is the Bishop?
Um, time for this “Church” to close. It no longer a Catholic Church, but a place where homosexuals can congregate and whine to the world about how unfair the Catholic Church. What nerve! Time for Bishop Cordelione to clean house. Start there.
I suggest everyone reread today’s Old Testament Jeremiah selection for Holy Mass. And then ponder Luke 16:31: who is stiff-necked man going to believe? the voice of his own desires or the Voice of the very One who has risen from the dead in order to prove His divinity and thus His authority?
This guy is not a shepherd to his flock – he’s just a baby sitter. The wolves got in already. Don’t cower to the gay mafia! Speak the truth, even if it costs you everything!!!
So disgusted in priests/bishops who shy away from the truth just to keep the peace.
The sodomites have always railed against the “Letter to Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons”. It was promulgated on October 1, 1986, by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. This Letter was approved by Pope John Paul II. Look it up on Google and see how clearly the document stated that Catholic churches will not support the homosexual lifestyle. Hold up a copy of this Letter to anyone at Holy Redeemer and that person will likely flee like a vampire would flee when shown a Crucifix.
It is true that the basis of the formation of the community at Most Holy Redeemer is not Catholicism, it is homosexuality, first and foremost, and “to hell with Catholicism, to hell with Pope Benedict, let’s use this (un)holy place to act up, be loud and proud, and bring down the church!”
I say don’t close the church; turn it into a Catholic church!
The Church will split into two….with 80% going the way of MHR….for those who like the buildings and the robes and the holiday traditions….but just don’t care too much for the doctrine. All the Universities and Hospitals already in the 80% will be formally handed over to Caesar. The next Pope will only accelerate the choice. 2 Thes 2-3. If you doubt it will happen…..your in the 80% already.
Pope Benedict stated the Church will be getting smaller.
“The church will become small and will have to start afresh more or less from the beginning. She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity. As the number of her adherents diminishes . . . she will lose many of her social privileges. . . As a small society, [the Church] will make much bigger demands on the initiative of her individual members.”
“. . . But when the trial of this sifting is past, a great power will flow from a more spiritualized and simplified Church. Men in a totally planned world will find themselves unspeakably lonely. If they have completely lost sight of God, they will feel the whole horror of their poverty. Then they will discover the little flock of believers as something wholly new. They will discover it as a hope that is meant for them, an answer for which they have always been searching in secret. ”
From “Faith and the Future”.
Sounds like the Church may be getting back to following the example of Jesus and the Apostles.
These dissident “gay” parishioners are a grave scandal in the church… many live in a “perpetual state of mortal sin”… they take “depraved” delight when indulging in the perversion of sodomy… then casually attend mass on Sunday, and receive Holy Communion… shocking, positively shocking…
” Canon: 1399 In addition to the cases established here or in other laws, the external violation of a divine or canonical law can be punished by a just penalty only when the special gravity of the violation demands punishment and there is an urgent need to prevent or repair scandals. ”
Too many US Bishops and Cardinals neglect teaching about and handling serious SCANDAL within their own Diocese.
CCC: ” 2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil.
The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter.
He damages virtue and integrity;
he may even draw his brother into spiritual death.
Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.
I am waiting for the voice of reason here, the one that says that this place, Most Holy Redeemer, will have their services suspended for a time, so that the appropriate pastoral leadership for this place can be formed and then put into place (dear Father Costello needs to retire to a place of reflection so that he can understand what his own weakness of leading has done to his congregation). When that time has finished, and that job done, the church will be opened to those who:
1) Are loyal to the teaching of the One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church (consult a catechism if you don’t understand what that means)
2) Are appropriately ready to promote, protect and defend those teachings (consult the catechism if you don’t understand what that means and how to do that).
3) Are ready to profess your faith as a Roman Catholic (consult a catechism if you don’t understand what that means)
4) Renounce all sin or attraction and love of that sin which will keep you away from the Church and the Sacraments (consult a catechism if you don’t understand what that means; living openly and promoting homosexual sin automatically puts you outside of the Church: you’ve done that to yourself, not the Church or its’ teaching)
5) Then dress appropriately before entering the Church or partaking of the Sacraments.
I don’t think this is unreasonable, but it will separate the sheep and the goats from that congregation. Benedict said he would rather have a small and faithful Church than a large one full of heretics.
Many of those posting – do want the Diocese Bishops to do their jobs.
Everyone, just keep sending emails and writing to the appropriate Bishops.
Since many Bishops are not obedient to the Pope, they set the example of everyone else not being obedient to them.
Handling SCANDAL according to the CCC and Code of Canon Law – is the Bishop’s job – if he hopes to have respect and obedience from his flock.
When was the last time you heard US Cardinals or Bishops teach about the mortal sin of scandal? Apparently, they do not think this is a problem within their own diocese, or they simply do not care.
Amen. It could not have been stated more clearly. Thank you.
Amen. It could not be stated more clearly.
Put the Pope’s picture back ..and let the Evil leave our Holy Catholic church…. if not your church will be shut down !!!!
“Woe to those who call evil good” Too many of our priests, bishops , cardinals and yes nuns seem to be ignoring these words of Christ
Picture of Jesus in a church, yes, Pope, no. Papal pic in the church leaves the “worship the Pope”, which is a bad idea. Put it in the vestuble with the newsletters, holy cards, and magazines.
That’s an interesting insight – the faith of Most Holy Redeemer parish is not Catholicism but homosexuality.
This is a serious crisis in our Church. No doubt there is a militant gay faction of priests doing our Church harm. I think of what is happening to the Jesuits, and many monasteries like St. John’s Abbey up in Minnesota, where most of the priests are preaching, writing, and even appearing in youtube videos where they condemn Church teaching. We all need to pray about this.
No wonder apostasy has flourished. If you don’t like a Church teaching just have a temper tantrum and tell the pastor that you never cared for a particular teaching and then proceed to tell the pastor that the teaching hurts your feelings.
Honesty is a virtue. Picture inside the church or no picture, these are apostates who have never ever agreed with Church teaching to begin with. Bingo with porn prizes and transvestites mocking God, now those things made these individuals feel very comfortable and didn’t hurt their feelings. These things would still be taking place if it had not been brought out into the open.
Are Courage pamphlets that promote chastity welcomed to be placed in the back of the MHR Church or would that hurt their feeling too? This is another ongoing soap opera episode called, The Endless Days of Apostate Drama Coddling at MHR. The cure is prayer, fasting and hierarchical holy courage! The faithful are prepared to hear the worst. Our trust is in God and the teachings of His Holy Church. Why are our bishops so compromised?
It took years before the horrific child abuse scandals were exposed. No different than the childsex abuse scandals. These stories, these scandals causing confusion and the division within the Church, will not end until EVERYTHING is purged and out in the open. The Cardinal in Scotland was also one of the most outspoken when railing against same sex marriage while privately undermining and destroying the faith of many. May God have mercy on our compromised shepherds. Scotland is just the tip of the giant iceberg meltdown. More confusion takes place when a priest burns a photo of a Pope.
“An Italian priest burned a photo of St. Benedict during Mass. In the name of “orthodoxy” he accused Pope Benedict XVI of abandoning his flock like the Captain of the Concordia. The priest said, “Im not interested in his reason for leaving. “The job of Pope is for life.” Instead of apologizing for burning the photo of Benedict the priest explained that he previously promised to burn the photo if the Pope decided to leave. “The Pope said it was the year of faith and then he leaves his post.”
Comment from the local bishop about the burning of the photo:
“(It) has gravely damaged the church and confused parishioners,” said Alberto Maria Careggio, the Bishop for the area. “This act has caused confusion among the faithful. I am mortified by the action of Don Andrea, who in other respects has proved a most generous and sensitive priest.”
Church Approved Message of Our Lady of Akita
It was on Saturday, October 13, the anniversary day of the last Apparition of the Virgin Mary to the three children of Fatima, that Mary gave to Sister Agnes Her third Message, the most important and serious one:
“The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see Cardinals opposing Cardinals, Bishops against other Bishops. The priests who venerate Me will be scorned and opposed by their confreres (other priests). Churches and altars will be sacked. The Church will be full of those who accept compromises, and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord.”
God is shining the Light on the darkness!
Catherine, instead of just making a comment, the Priest’s Diocese Bishop could demand a public apology from the Priest or excommunicate him per Code of Canon Law if he does not comply, or remove him from his priestly duties within the Diocese.
The sloppy and haphazard state of affairs over the past 45 years within the Church are due mainly to Cardinals and Bishops who refuse to do their jobs within his own Diocese.
If it were not for Jesus and Holy Communion, I’d be gone as well.
Many non-Catholics think we are all nuts for putting up with the scandals without excommunication as stated in 1 Cor 5:11-13.
Even many Protestant Churches such as Assembly of God excommunicate. – They excommunicated Jimmy Baker for his scandal very quickly and publically.
Prior to the media black-out at the Vatican, I listed to the public statements of Cardinals.
Not one mentioned the scandals of heresy and schism.
It’s like they are blind and deaf.
It is not that they are blind or deaf, they just do not care to listen or see what they know is wrong, but prefer to go along with the crowd so to speak.
Jimmy Baker is still on television, crying and preaching and begging for money, which is still flowing his way. Protestants are not to be elevated as our models; indeed, they are to be prayed for and to be seen as fellow travelers who believe in Jesus Christ but who have been taught many things that are incorrect, misguided, and are in some cases contrary to Church doctrine. It is hard for them to see the light, but how are we to attract them to the one true Church when we are in such public disarray ourselves in matters that give scandal to the very name of Catholicism?
Let them walk out and join another liberal denomination. Stop watering down our faith and morals to accommodate these groups. Remember sodom and gommorh we will be destroyed if we continue to try to appease these liberals.
Bring back the popes picture and stand up to these bullies
True! Many priests and non catholic ministers are preaching that we are in the final days the “Apocolypse” Read the last book of the New Testament. We are most certainly in those times described in this Holy Book.
Not a single parish I’ve gone to on a regular basis has had a picture of the current presiding Pope – at least not visible from where the congregation sit. I’m sure some churches may have such pictures, but there is no requirement. I’ve never heard a fuss about any parish refraining from putting up a picture of the pope. But when it’s reported that MHR doesn’t want a picture of the bishop of Rome in their church, they are labelled as heretics and we cry out to the bishop of San Francisco to save us from their evil.
Perhaps some perspective is needed. The pope is not the source of salvation. Christ is. The pope is not meant to be an idol for us to worship: being vicar of Christ does not mean he is Christ. If we try to remember our history, there have been popes who have behaved terribly: Pope Clement VI sold bishoprics, Pope Leo X sold indulgences, Pope Steven VI put the cadaver of his predecessor on trial, Pope Alexander VI trumped up false charges against the wealthy in Rome so he could have them killed and confiscate their wealth, and a whole host of them had mistresses and illegitimate children. While Pope Benedict XVI is certainly not on par with any of these, there is no sin for a community to say that they do not like the current pope, nor is there a sin for a community to say that they do not want his image in their place of worship. They pray for him at every mass – as do all parishes – and they are in complete communion with him. There is no requirement that they need to display his image.
St. Peter: You obviously don’t belong to my parish. A nicely-framed photo of Benedict XVI with dedicated spotlight and floral arrangment is placed in the back wall of the nave where everybody can see it upon exiting.
I remember reading CCD when Fr. Costello was first named to MHR. I did pray for him for awhile but, alas, kind of forgot about MHR. Obviously I will return to praying for him.
Which examples are why the Church needs transparency, and the best way to achieve that is to disband the entire Vatican, and subject each curia member to public vetting.
The pope’s picture should never be “placed on the altar”; this would be a liturgical abuse, and so the parishioners were right to object–sadly they ignorantly objected for the wrong reasons.
We don’t worship the pope–and certainly not one who has quit.
Nobody said it should be placed on the altar! What a ridiculous comment.
Speaking of ridiculous comments, Maryanne, yours really takes first prize here….The article clearly states that the parishioners at MHR believe that “[Ex-Pope Benedict XVI’s] picture should not be placed ON THE ALTAR of MHR.”
Now maybe the author of the article was not being truthful, but if he is, then the parishioners of MHR apparently understand at least at some basic level that the altar is for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and nothing else–and certainly should never be used as a type of “stand” for nostalgic displays of Papal memorabilia. I guess even Fr. Costello doesn’t fathom why this might be inappropriate, which in itself is pretty tragic. Talk about the blind leading the blind.
It’s always helpful to read the article itself and not just the other comments.
I also wondered about that Dave. A picture of anyone CANNOT be placed on the altar, which the article clearly stated was done.
If the photo of Benedict was indeed placed on the altar table, this puts the parishioners of MHR in the unexpected position (unexpected from the standpoint of folks like Maryanne Leonard) of being more in-tune in the proper use of holy objects and sacred space.
And I agree. Some people should really start reading the article themselves rather than just the comments.
Maryann – Father Costello himself wrote in the parish bulletin that he placed the picture of the Pope on the altar. It’s in the link, read it for yourself.
And I’d love to hear from folks familiar with GIRM and TLM if there is ever a situation in which a picture is allowed to be placed on an altar.
Not a suprise. Did anyone think they would want the Pope seeing what they are doing?
The Catholic Church must speak “truth to power” and radicalize its membership. This is done by teaching children the Catecism and making apologists of us all. Without a clear and defined dogma, which already exists, the Church will never get back on solid footing. We need strong men to lead us. Lets stop the popularity contests and get back to the sacraments and the gospel.
Oh, let’s get over it.
If Father Costallo HAD put up the picture of the Holy Father, some jerks would probably have defaced it — even as they defaced Most Holy Redeemer Church itself with swastikas and the like, attacking Archbishop Niederauer and Benedict XVI for their common German heritage.
A Catholic Church doesn’t need a Papal Flag, an American Flag, a statue of the Pope, a portrait of the president, a photo of the mayor, or any of that stuff — just things that point to Jesus and the saints!!!
Enough already, shut down that perverted church once and for all, once again where is the Archbishop who we all thought would clean up San Francisco??????? Just more Novus Ordonarian disasters!!
Tell you what, Bishop Cordileone talks the talk, but there is little in terms of decisive action from him.
Well, we’ve had apostasy in the Catholic church for a very long time now, say, two thousand years? In varying degrees, ebb and flow, apostasy has ALWAYS been a problem, and it’s JUST BECAUSE we’re talkin’ the Catholic church here, once again, NOT the ephemeral Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists, etc., but ONLY the ONE TRUE CHURCH of Jesus Christ, containing exorcists, Holy Communion, Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, indulgences and so on; Lucifer is NEVER going to waste much time on the protestant heresies, ONLY the TRUE CHURCH of Jesus Christ will do for him. Satan’s got Roman Catholic priests to contend with, who, day in and day out, offer up the Holy Sacrifice, that which, in the words of St. Thomas Aquinas (?), I think, the world cannot EXIST WITHOUT, in fact it’s more needed than the sun itself, in my readings. So, yes, why would we believe any less than a full court press on us will do for beelzebub? He’s got the LORD HIMSELF in human and divine form which he, in all his delusionary dementedness, thinks he’ll triumph over, given enough time. (see the extraordinary dialogue between satan and God that took place after Pope Leo XIII said Holy Mass in 1884, and which he was witness to.) And it’s probably only going to get worse.
As a matter of fact, the Papal Conclave set to take place any day now to select the next Pope will be the PERFECT TIME for Lucifer to attempt throwing a monkey wrench into the proceedings; this occasion, pregnant with possibilities for the future direction of Holy Mother Church, is made for him. In fact he probably had (duh) a great deal to do with bringing it about. He’s a seraph, after all, the most GIFTED and POWERFUL of all the angels. If we get Peter Torkelson as Pope, I believe we’ll see a TREMENDOUS come-uppance for the devil, DESPITE all his machinations. Time will tell. GOD BLESS AND PROTECT US ALL, MARKRITE
Jesus says the gates of hell will never prevail over His Holy Church and that Church is the Holy Catholic Church to whom Jesus gave the keys of Heaven to St.Peter then St. Peter to St. Linus so forth! Jesus Christ only made one Church not two dozen Churches. There is only One Shepard, One Flock, One Vineyard, One Church built on One Rock which is St. Peter! That is the Truth and Satan hates Truth because he is the master of lies. Satan hates obedience to the Pope just as the Protestants rebel against the Pope and the One Holy Church. These Homosexual parishoners must abstain and stay innocent of sin and mortal sin. If they fall they have to repent through the Sacrement of Confession with a Catholic Priest to reinstate Communion
The Primary Church (= “Cathedral”) of the US Anglican Ordinariate in Houston, Texas, has a portrait of Pope Benedict XVI in a place of honor in the narthex, seen as soon as you enter, alongside the portrait of Pope John-Paul II, who welcomed former Episcopalians and their Anglican patrimony and customs into the Roman Catholic Church under the Anglican Use in 1984. These portraits, placed there by former Protestants, remain in the Church of Our Lady of Walsingham in gratitude to these truly ecumenical and wise vicars of Christ though they no longer hold the see of Peter.
Rejection of the portrait of the Pope by parishioners of Holy Redeemer Church is simply emblematic of their arrogant rejection of the teaching of Christ, who speaks through the voice of his Church.
I pray for their repentance and salvation.
We should give thnks for the “ordinate” which have in some cases led to whole parishes to return to Holy Mother Church. Some Lutherans are starting down that same path, We should welcome them with open arms and tell them “Welcome home”
So this parish does not want a pope who upholds the moral teachings of the Catholic Church on homosexuality (and other issues)? Then why be Catholic? If they are waiting for a pope to embrace the gay lifestyle, hell will freeze over before that happens.
The inmates are running the proverbial assylum, at Most Holy Redeemer. That parish needs a new name. This is very sad, as souls are being lost. Eternity in darkness, away from God, is a long time.
Anyone know what the “hurtful and hateful” comments alledgedly made by Benedict were, and when made ? TIA
That’s easy, he told the truth about the Sixth Commandment!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Tommyd, many people were upset by some of the things said in the October 1986 letter on the pastoral care of homosexual persons. Some of the things said in this letter are hurtful and dehumanizing to homosexual persons. When you read that letter you understand what it means to be a member of a minority group.
Mark, I wasn’t in town while all this was going on at MHR, so i can’t speak for those who objected, but I think what’s even more upsetting to people about PEBXVI is his scapegoating gay clergy candidates with the scandal of the priest sex abuse scandal, and his own role in the scandal. MHR parishioners are a very educated and sophisticated bunch and they know that the Halloween letter used words like “disordered” which have very different meanings on the street than they mean in theological works.
And before others raise the issue of the sinfulness of those parishoners…I think they know they are sinners already. I’ve never once seen even a single mass-goer not participate in the Penitential Rite.
If the parishioners at MHR are upset at Benedict because he has “scapegoated gay clergy candidates” and because of His Holiness’ role in the abuse scandal, THEN you are proving to all of us here that the parishioners at MHR are NOT as “sophisticated” and “educated” as you claim they are!!!
No where has Benedict scapegoated seminarians for the abuse scandal (they are the only clergy candidates out there). This is a preposterous claim.
Nor should Benedict’s actions as CDF Prefect or as Pontiff concerning the scandal be “upsetting” to anyone. Rather as CDF Prefect he has done a lot to hasten the process of investigating abuse claims that has come to the Holy See. He has also urged bishops, even while he was still at the CDF to cooperate with law enforcement.
This is all well-documented and Benedict’s commendable actions in the past emerged in response to the New York Times-generated faux “scandal” in 2009 during the Year Of Priests. Imagine the NYT trying to “resurrect” this tired scandal and trying to implicate Benedict. It blew up in their face big time! And rightly so!
So you may tell your co-parishioners at MHR how wrong they are. And not to be too complacent about their so-called “sophistication” and “education.” It’s all too shallow from the way you have described them.
Mark, specifically what were the “hurtful and dehumanizing” things said? I have the document in my hand right now. Which of the 18 paragraphs do you object to?
Laurette, paragraph 9 appears to be against Catholic groups that are sympathetic to gay people. The first part of paragraph 10 is good, it condemns violence against homosexual persons. However the second part of #10 says in part, “The proper reaction to crimes committed against homosexual persons should not be to claim that the homosexual condition is not disordered.” It goes on to say that neither Church nor society should be surprised if irrational and violent reactions increase if homosexual persons press for civil rights. In my opinion, this seems to show an understanding of people who are violent towards gay people who press to openly for equality. I am not saying that I disagree with the whole letter. It seems to me that the Church prefers not to really have any ministry for homosexual persons. It would prefer that gay people remain unseen and unheard.
Mark, my friend, I’m sorry, but I do have to disagree with you there. I hope you can read my words that follow in the same peaceful manner they are meant.
I believe that Pope Benedict was careful, as he always endeavored to be, in the wording of his statements, and if you choose to read love for people who are suffering from a grave disorder, you will definitely feel it in his teachings. I think he genuinely cared about all members of his flock and cared to help all of us see this situation for what it is and help us all in either treating homosexuals properly and helping homosexuals to follow the teachings of the Catholic Church properly . . . all for the good of our eternal souls, and to help us all attain salvation. That to me is love.
If you choose to take offense, unfortunately that is merely another sign of the kind of disordered mental processes common to people suffering from delusions of persecution. Also unfortunately, some of these people take offense and become inflamed with anger; not content to consider the meaning of the words of the Pope, they act out in ways harmful to the Church but more profoundly harmful to their own souls.
When they do so, or support defiance of the teachings of the Church, they are harming all of us who are Catholic, the Church itself, making it harder for potential converts to be attracted to the Church, harming the Church in the eyes of the world, and of course harming themselves as a group and encouraging hatred. Thus, they are pawns of Satan, my friend, and nothing less. That’s God’s truth.
These reactions are both sad and illogical; further, they prove mental disorder as well as a lack of acceptance of Catholic teaching. These are not the reactions of faithful Catholics; these are disordered people doing evil things, and they are a serious problem for all of us as for the Church. I don’t know why anyone would expect to be respected when they are so disordered and so disgraceful in their treatment of the Church established by Jesus Christ. Obviously, this is further proof of disordered minds. This is not to dehumanize homosexual persons, to use your terms, Mark; this is recognition of a serious problem.
I hope you will reconsider your words, as they are incorrect. Fortunately, Pope Emeritus Benedict will not be taking offense at your words, nor do I. I am just saddened by the reaction of people who identify powerfully with the homosexual disorder, more powerfully than with their avowed Catholicism.
I am a member of a group, females, that is widely discriminated against by the Church. There are reasons for this, and many of them are legitimate; I say this as a feminist. However, some are not. Furthermore, many Catholics take this different treatment of women as evidence of our inferiority; this is not accurate, but countless Catholics will denounce my saying that I am equal to a man. I know that I am equal in the eyes of God, and that my vote is as important as that of any American, male or female. But I do not hold the different treatment that women receive in the Church as evidence that I should denounce the Catholic Church for its different treatment of women, even though it is invariably inferior to the treatment that men receive.
It is a mark of strength not to denounce those who cannot embrace you as their equal; in fact, it is a mark of their personal weakness that they should denounce me as inferior to them. I think there is something homosexuals could take from that philosophy if indeed they wish to grow as human beings and be treated less cruelly by those who so despise what homosexuals do and say that they feel free to be cruel to those who are afflicted with homosexual attraction.
The problem with being a homosexual is that homosexuality is sin; that is not true in the case of being born female, though you might think that it was so if you believed some of the anti-woman drivel some Catholics and others would throw at you. It would not be possible for me to remain female if I felt it offended God; I would transform myself in every way I could to please God. How can you remain proudly homosexual when you are promoting sin, even if you are not actively practicing it while you are a married father of a son? By promoting the cause of homosexuality, you are actually promoting sin. Do you not see the error of your ways, my friend? I care for you and will pray for you to see the light. I am also proud of you that you are seeking to be heard while expressing yourself with dignity. I just hope you will put this homosexual obsession behind you and tend to the needs of your own soul, and that of your wife and son. This is our one chance to please God, while we are here on earth, alive and able to choose to follow the teachings of Our Lord and love Him with all our hearts, our minds, and our bodies. With tender thoughts for your full healing, Maryanne
Maryanne Leonard’s words are ERRONEOUS. Why? She claims that homosexuality is a sin. The Church has never taught that!
Rather, the Church teaches that the homosexual orientation is NOT A SIN. Read it for yourselves from the 1986 CDF Letter “On The Care For Homosexual Persons”:
“Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.”
MarkPA, I commented on your point below. Spend time reading that instead.
It is gravely sinful Jon if a person gives in to the temptation of “sodomy”…if a man were to indulge in this perversion, he is now in a state of mortal sin, a sin against the 6th commandment. Even if he takes pleasure in fertilizing impure thoughts of “sodomy”, he has committed a grave sin…if a homosexual male, is using legal “machinations” to create legislation that allows “gay” to marry, they have committed a grave sin…if you are a catholic male, you will have to resist this temptation for your whole life, “this is your cross”…great graces come from resisting these temptations, that come from the devil…
Pobot: My comment as well as the Church’s clear teaching on this still stands, your comment notwithstanding: that the Church teaches that homosexuality is NOT a sin! This is verifiable in the CDF’s Letter from 1986!
The temptation to indulge in homosexual activity is not a sin…those who indulge are committing a grave mortal sin…homosexuality is a “gravely disordered behavior”…being tempted does not constitute HOMOSEXUALITY…indulging in this perversion DOES!…Wrong again Jon…
Me? Wrong? Where?
Pobot, the homosexual inclination is NOT a sin! The CDF Letter says so. PLAINLY!
JON…as usual you WRONG!…the Church uses the term “disordered… this means that this “lifestyle and inclination” is “maladaptive” and defective”…if you understood these terms from a clinical and psychological perspective, you would realize that this behavior need’s modification, bigtime!…that is why the Church states the this lifestyle is discorded and intrinsically WRONG!
Palot: Your “interpretation” of the phrase “objectively disordered” is totally wrong. Just look at article 3 of the CDF’s Letter “On The Care of Homosexual Persons.” The Church interprets its own use of the phrase!
The CDF Letter states that the homosexual orientation is a tendency “ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil.” It is actually ORDERED (oriented) towards something; but that something is a sin. Therefore it is objectively “disordered.”
This is NOT a medical, psychological, or psychiatric judgment, but a MORAL judgment on the homosexual inclination, which remains NOT A SIN, though the action is!
You interpretation however is not proven in any Church document. I challenge you therefore to produce your proof for your “interpretation.”
The promotion of sin is sin. I do not say that homosexual orientation is a sin, but it is disordered. To stand up for homosexuality is to promote it. Let’s not spend time splitting hairs; although it is a fun way to distract people from the grievousness of the subject at hand. I repeat: the promotion of sin is sin. Furthermore, it is disruptive to the entire society and is in service of evil, for which you may read: Satan.
MLeonard, on the contrary this is NOT splitting hairs. This is an important moral issue.
You had just called homosexuality a sin: and this is GROSSLY wrong. The Church has never taught this. You had in effect distorted and mischaracterized the teachings of the Church.
As for your saying “promoting sin is a sin”: this is a red-herring. Who here has “promoted” sin?
Additionally, for those who are reading this who may have same-sex attractions: don’t let anyone deceive you by tying a heavy burden on your back, telling you that something is a sin when it is not! Read the CDF Letter. The truth therein will set you free.
Note, MarkPA and MLeonard that when the Church uses the term “objective disorder”, the Church is not necessarily talking about a medical, psychiatric “disorder.”
The Church is using here a philosophical category, meaning that the homosexual inclination is “not ordered to,” “not oriented towards” the goods of a nuptial union which are procreation and the union between man and woman.
MarkPA, the careless and erroneous use of some commenters here of the Church’s phrase “objective disorder” IS WHAT IS DEHUMINIZING.
The Church has never used this phrase to put down and dehumanize a group of human beings.
Rather, the Church uses this phrase to point to the truth that the homosexual orientation is not ordered to the goods of the sexual union which God has ordained.
now to this part of your interpretation I would have to disagree….and I won’t bother getting into it with you again jon….peace
It really doesn’t surprise me that you disagree because you yourself have fallen victim to a WRONG interpretation of the phrase “objectively disordered” as well as your wrong interpretation of what the Church teaches on homosexuality!
Jon, thank you for pointing out that homosexuality is not a sin. I find the phrase about an intrinsic moral evil to be troubling. This implies that gay people are morally evil in their being. I understand what you are saying about “objective disorder” but perhaps it would be better to say that the inclination is not ordered to procreation. I find the letter to be very confusing and contradictory.
PA, the word “disorder” is a sanitized version of words such as deranged, depraved, evil, corrupt, unnatural, and so forth.
The phrase “intrinsically evil” pertains to the homosexual action. The homosexual act, whatever form it takes, is on its own ALWAYS WRONG, ALWAYS EVIL. Inherently so. It pertains to the act, not the person.
The Letter is NOT contradictory and it is not confusing. It is very clear.
jon, you are wrong again. The Church states that homosexuality is a MORAL DISORDER.
As stated in Holy Scripture (and by the Church – Homosexual acts are a MORTAL SIN).
In the English language homosexuality is an “erotic activity with another of the same sex”.
People merely with same sex attraction who define themselves as homosexual but do NOT practice it, are defining themselves by their temptation only. (This is stupid, and their own fault.) It is their own choice how they define themselves, but defining themselves by a temptation rather then their lifestyle is rediculous.)
As we all know everyone has temptations of various types, and as long as we avoid the near occasion of sin and do not give into our temptations – no sin is committed.
There is no requirement to make public ones TEMPTATIONS.
” As in every moral disorder, homosexual activity prevents one’s own fulfillment and happiness by acting contrary to the creative wisdom of God.”
” 15. We encourage the Bishops, then, to provide pastoral care in full accord with the teaching of the Church for homosexual persons of their dioceses. No authentic pastoral programme will include organizations in which homosexual persons associate with each other without clearly stating that homosexual activity is immoral. A truly pastoral approach will appreciate the need for homosexual persons to avoid the near occasions of sin.”
FROM : ” LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS ” – Vatican web site.
HOLY SCRIPTURE: Gen 19:1-29; Rom 1:24-32; 1 Cor 6:9-10; 1 Tim 1:10.
CCC: 2357, 2358, 2359.
jon, although you point to the correct documents at times, sometimes your own interpretation is wrong or misleading.
Or perhaps it is your misuse of the language.
Mark from PA, if you love your neighbor as commanded by Jesus, you will want them all to get to Heaven for eternity.
Never defend a gravely sinful lifestyle;
Never try to confuse people, by lowering them to the definition of merely a temptation.
MAC!…you are RIGHT ON!….YAHTZEE!
MAC, what I have said remains true and you have NOT proven it otherwise. The term “objectively disordered” is NOT a medical, psychiatric, or psychological judgment of the Church on the homosexual person.
It is a philosophical, theological, and yes, a moral judgment on the homosexual act—BUT IT IS NOT A MEDICAL OR PSYCHIATRIC TERM. And the Church does not intend the phrase to be used in those ways. Why? The Church’s competency is not found in medicine or psychiatry or psychology.
And THIS is how some folks here are erroneously interpreting that phrase “objectively disordered”: to mean that somehow homosexuals are “disordered” medically and psychiatrically.
This is a WRONG use of the Church’s phrase. This is dehumanizing and it misrepresents the Church’s teaching on this.
“Disorder” in this context means, deranged, depraved, degenerate, ruined, dehumanized, absolutely corrupted, defiled, foul, evil, abominable, etc. “Disorder” in this context is a condition which adversely affects the mind, heart, soul and perception, and also the capacity to manage others or make valid decisions.
Skai, “disordered”, as jon is correctly trying to point out to you, means something very specific in catholic moral teaching. It is not subject to contextual interpretation, especially it does not even come close to meaning what you say it means. The church sometimes uses the term “disordered” to mean, for example, those who tend to overindulge in food. The overindulgence might be sinful (gluttony), but the tendency or desire to overeat, which we now know through science is often related to the levels of various hormones, can hardly be said to be sinful or —as you put it—“deranged, depraved, degenerate, ruined, dehumanized, absolutely corrupted, defiled, foul, evil, abominable”.
I know it is tempting to believe that “disordered” means the kinds of things you say it means, but it simply does not mean those things. And many people have rightly taken offense when the term is taken to mean these incorrect things.
Well…straighten up and fly right…men don’t date men…nor should they sodomize each other…does anything I say strike you right Mark?
Paleobotanist, I find much of what you say to be somewhat creepy. I have lived a rather sheltered life and as a young person I was never really exposed to a lot of homophobia. So the open dislike of gays and making fun of them that occurs here regularly is not something that I am all that used to. People around me don’t really say negative things about gay people. Also I am not openly gay and for most of my life I didn’t really self-identify as gay or even think a lot about it.
try very hard to become one of the majority – the ones who live in fear of God and punishment in eternity for sinful living but a future of joy and peace after ‘going and sinning no more’.
“Who changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this cause God delivered them up to shameful affections. For their women have changed the natural use into that which is against nature. And, in like manner, the men also, leaving the natural use of women, have burned in their lusts one towards another, men with men working that which is filthy, and receiving in themselves the recompense which is due to their error. And as they liked not to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them up to a reprobate sense, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all iniquity, malice, fornication, avarice, wickedness, full of envy, murder, contention, deceit, malignity, whisperers, detractors, hateful to God, contumelious, haughty, proud, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, foolish, dissolute, without affection, without fidelity, without mercy. Who, having known the justice of God, did not understand that they who do such things, are worthy of death; not only they that do them, but they also that consent to them that do them.” (Romans 1: 24-32)
Dont stop there. Romans 2:1-8 That is why everyone of you who judges another is inexusable. By your judgement you convict yourself, since you do the very same things. “We know that God’s judgement on men who do such things is just.” Do you suppose then that you will escape his judgement, you who condemn these things in others yet do them yourself? Or do you presume on his kindness and forbearance? Do you not know that God’s kindness is an invitation to you to repent? In spite of this, your hard and impenitent heart is storing up retribution for the day of wrath when the just judgement of God will be revealed, when he will repay every man for what he has done: eternal life to those who strive for glory, honor and immortalitiy by patiently doing what is right; wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.”
MarkPA, there is NOTHING in the CDF’s “Letter On The Care Of Homosexual Persons” that is hurtful or dehumanizing. NOTHING! If telling the truth is “dehumanizing” then you grossly misunderstand the Church’s loving outreach to all people, including homosexuals.
The Letter in fact holds out hope for salvation to all with same-sex attraction by calling them to unite their life with the Cross of Jesus. The quote below is one of the most forthright advice given to them by the Church:
“What, then, are homosexual persons to do who seek to follow the Lord? Fundamentally, they are called to enact the will of God in their life by joining whatever sufferings and difficulties they experience in virtue of their condition to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross. That Cross, for the believer, is a fruitful sacrifice since from that death come life and redemption….
“Christians who are homosexual are called, as all of us are, to a chaste life. As they dedicate their lives to understanding the nature of God’s personal call to them, they will be able to celebrate the Sacrament of Penance more faithfully and receive the Lord’s grace so freely offered there in order to convert their lives more fully to his Way.”
What Cardinal Ratzinger had written above as Prefect of the CDF is respectful, dignified, and displays Christian charity.
Wow jon I am happy that you posted what you posted here to PA.
jon though I usually don’t agree with you, I must say WELL SAID….
There seems to be an amount of disobedience from the clergy to parishioners to the Holy Church. It is sideing on it’s homosexual culture which runs counter to Christian Culture and the Holy Church. I will remind them that they must repent or they will perish that is including the clergy and the Bishop if he is condoning this erroneous behavior! This is Lent. Last Sunday’s Liturgy was about repenting or perish! This is serious, homosexuals have to abstain from their sexual behavior. The Priest is there to make sure of this and reminding the parishioners the Sacrement of Confession. Do not receive the Eucharist in the state of mortal sin. Please be obediant to the Holy Church and abstance from sexual misconduct is so important to One’s sanctification. The Almighty Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit wants to see everyone get to Heaven. Please don’t rebel like Lucifer!
Homosexuality is a very difficult one for many of us Christians. For me, I am guessing being gay cannot be an easy life and for many (not all) who call themselves gay, the choice was sort of made for them. Some have more feminine or masculine traits than most in their gender, and the table is somewhat set. I do not blame them, nor do I hold them accountable for much of their activity. I don’t dare judge anybody, meaning, “he deserves this because of that.” I feel pretty certain we are all judged uniquely by God based on a myriad of factors including genetic dispositions, family upbringing, beauty, money, health, and what opportunities we were given or not given to make a real difference.
Having said that, I just think as a society endorsing gay marriage is tantamount to telling the culture and our curious youth “it’s ok, go for it.” Because I believe many would not be gay if our environment and culture were not so indulgent. I also do not believe two “hot” high school girls “hooking up” have a single “gay gene” in their bodies. Sex is just an experiment and it can go in many directions. So I will not judge those who insist they are born gay and will not change, but neither will I condone the promotion of it in schools or by the government. This is a spiritual matter, one with eternal consequences attached. By society forcing its “morals” upon all its people to uphold, they are placing themselves in seats of judgment and accountability. I am far from comfortable in that setting.
Reason has to be based on God’s revealed truth, otherwise it is throwing straw into the wind.
SKAI thank you for saying that….I see many throw straws into the wind….God have mercy on us and I pray for all of us to pray for His graces and to embrace them!
Yes, thank you. Do we agree when there is doubt, then revealed truth is a matter of the Church established by Jesus Christ to decide? Whatsoever ruled on earth shall be ruled in heaven. And the papal office remains the ordained authority.
No such thing as a “gay” gene…uh-uh
and its worth repeating from Paleobatoanist “No such thing as a “gay” gene” That is true…
I just read an article on Spirit Daily which talked about how harshness negates the essence of goodness and Christianity in general. I am an extrememly orthodox Catholic. (mom always said, “look to Rome!”) I also know that what is ALWAYS needed is truth told in LOVE. Jesus showed anger only a few times in Scripture. Otherwise he admonished sinners with kindess, mercy, and charity. Unfortunately, I don’t see nearly enough of that here in this comment section. We should ALL hurt for the affronts Jesus must face each and every day, especially to his Precious Body and Blood! But that is also a call to PRAY, not spew venom. I am saddened by the apostasy in the Church. Very few parishes (IMO) are not swayed by “contemporary” ideas and practices. And to those who reminded other posters that we are ALL sinners, thank you! I am not suggesting that we sugar coat the evil nature of homosexual ACTS. (as are all sins of the flesh) Rather, that ALL sin hurts God and mankind. Fasting, prayer, penance…this is what is called for to make reparation to Jesus. I do pray for our Bishops to have the GRACE to fight the good fight. God give us holy shephards.
I too am an orthodox Catholic, who at one time did not leave the Church, but rather ignored the teachings received from the good nuns priests and lay teachers. When I returned and found that my old missal didn’t work. I came close to leaving the Church but did not. Years later I found a Church that still had the Latin Mass and felt quite at home. The Churdh is an Eastern Rite Catholic, with a kind and saintly priest which sadly many so-called good Catholics have never heard of. I was introduced to Eastern Rite Churches (33 of them) in high school in the latter fifties. Check it out on the internet under Eastern Rite Catholic Churches. The are pages after pages on the subject. The Rite of my little Church is the Byzantine, yet saing the Tridentine Mass.
So much for loving the Holy Father…I remember when at Old St. Mary ,they didn’t have a picture of Blessed John Paul The great til after he passed away ,but hung up a picture of H.H. Benedict XVI. Even then I bet the libs and others were aghast at that,They even built the church where our Savior was in a room off to the side ,and the statue of The Holy Family ? Don’t get me started… Little does Father know you ,give an inch ,they want a mile…This is while I hat political correctness ,you never win.
….. why didn’t he let them walk out as threatened? Where the will of the
congregation is such that it it publicly rejects the teachings of the Church (and Bible), then that parish is no longer ‘of the faith’ and the priest who
acquiesces in the face of such hostility to the Word of God, is failing miserably. Better that he be left with 2 faithful Catholic parishoners than a church full of misguided anti Pope pretend Catholics who wrongly believe that the practise of homosexuality will ever be normalised in the Catholic church. ….. It wouldn’t be the Catholic church of Christ and St.Peter in that case….. maybe that’s what they really want because otherwise they could all right now go join a ‘protest’ant church where anything is permitted if you shout long enough…..
If it´s a catholic church, the photo of the Pope Benedict must be there. He made a lot for the church and he´s still doing his work by praying. If it´s an homosexual church only created by gays that want to be gay, only God will judge their depravation not us. But a catholic church must be free, the priests must no be afraid of lossing their people. If you don´t support Benedict so don´t be in catholic church anymore. We don´t need false faces, we are full of double faces, there is no places for anymore: the door is open, please leave us before you do somethig terrible for yourself. Priests and the rest of catholicism must know that primitive christians died in brutal events for God. Our time is near to show we are real to God. We will be martyrs in some way that it is our destinity.
Gays should make a good sacramental confession and forever turn their back on this disordered and depraved lifestyle…it leads to perdition, which goes on in perpetuity…
Homosexuals should leave the gay movement and it’s lies, remove that label off of them and seek the truth…so they won’t be slaves to the “gay movement and it’s labels”…..
Free the Men and Women from that agenda and honor God’s natural laws…see the beauty that the Lord is.
Abeca Christian, many homosexuals join the “gay movement” because they are sick and tired of all the bullying and hatred and even violence directed at them by people that hate homosexuals and homosexuality. The way they are treated by some people makes it understandable that they would join with people that treat them with respect. Some even find more Christian treatment in the gay movement than they get from so-called Christians that despise them.
PA of course they started the movement to grow their sinful ways. The Gay movement is a disordered one….you don’t see obese people start a movement, nor alcoholics, if they do, it would be one to help them and not to spread more sinful behavior!
Your reasoning and views are shameful to me….I can not defend those sinful behaviors like you do…sin is sin PA…not matter how you paint it.
I think that Gay activist are more prideful…they are not lead by humility or meekness….not only are their homosexuals disordered and their supporters living false compassion but because of their pride, they may have a harder time obtaining heaven or the qualities one needs to free themselves from self worship.
Mark, the gays act every bit as hateful toward women and some of their fellow Catholics as any group I’ve ever seen. Worse, they act hateful toward Catholicism itself and do, think and say vile things that would make people hate them if they were girl scouts acting like that.
I say the gays bond together because they feel comfortable with others who are similarly oriented (afflicted) and also because they are seeking partners, and usually not life partners, but hook-ups.
Please don’t try to blame gay bonding on others who are turned off by the behavior and speech of gays; the gays would bond together, and would unite against true Catholics, if we sought out gays to serve them Sunday supper seven days a week as our honored guests. Don’t blame the heterosexuals for gay bonding please.
yes Anon “the gays” get with the program and speak and understand the language of today’s agenda activist….it’s the reality of those terms….the rainbow flag, being gay? All words to describe the agenda that is promoting filth and misleading many souls towards more sinful behavior.
Maryanne – please – you know better than to tarnish an entire group with a single claim. Please try to refrain from using ridiculously prejudicial claims against an entire swath of people. “The Gays” is like “The Jews”. We don’t think and act in lock step so please, please, stop with the broad brush. You know better.
God’s love for us is the same love any father has for his children. As grateful children we obey the rules of the house, we observe our parents with meekness and trust in what they have decided for us and we accept the responsibility of their trust in us. Presumption would be that we decide what is good for ourselves and question their authority. Sounds like the Garden of Eden, doesn’t it?
Many good priests preach against all the sexual sins on occcasion. I have heard them preach against fornication of any kind, whether between a man and a woman or two people of the same sex; against adultery and artificial contraceptives and abortion and so-called same-sex marriage. Some priests are a little reluctant to say too much in sermons because children are listening, but they can say it in a way that is above most children’s heads without going into detail. At a Shrine in California there are flyers for an examination of conscience in a container attached to the confessional. It includes all those sins including incest and beastiality and in a way anyone should be able to understand, by asking with whom or what the person has had illicit sexual relations and whether they are related to the person. That should be all that is needed. If the person does not agree, quite simply, they are not good Catholics, and if told that the priest should not absolve them.
What county do you LIVE in?!?
Mackz, I was not going to answer you as I did not want to discuss this further, and I thought you were being sarcastic, but I guess you deserve a reply. I am not sure bestiality is included in the flyer on the confessional at that church. I might be mistaken, but it should be included as it is mentioned in many approved Catholic prayer books. If you think it does not happen in this country, I refer you to Kenneth, Abeca Christian and my comments on March 6 from about 12:00 am (Abeca’s) and my replies to her under the article “Record Majority Polled in California Approves Same-sex Marriage”. Kenneth’s comment is right above Abeca Christian’s first comment. There have also been such crime reports in states that outlaw this kind of depravity.
Anne T., it’s just that I cannot imagine anyone engaging in such stuff.
I know people who commit adultery and who are homosexuals, but I’ve never met anyone into animals.
Anne T., it also seems to me that the man challenging you on “where you live” may have been trying to be funny, but God only knows. I, for one, would not want such a list on a confessional where children could see the word and then ask what it means. This would be very embarrassing for their parents to have to explain.
It would be better, in my opinion, for the Confessor to simply ask the Penitent about one’s state in life, and to respond accordingly. In other words, to ask the Penitent: are you married? are you single? etc.
Well, Thomas,the flyers are meant for adults and would not go into detail; just as the prayer books are meant for adults. It can be very serious as a man lost his life according to a news video on line from trying such behavior on a larger animal in this country. It is neither healthy nor safe for the person nor the animal. I only know about such things because people against porn have told me what filth some of the stuff contains. The man who lost his life was being filmed for a porn video. He was killed and his “friends” who were filming him were arrested. Of course, such examinations of conscience must go by the age of the person, and certain things should not be included in a sermon, unless they are a very common problem in that area and not mentioned in too much detail.
Those who indulge in “homosexual activity” are committing a sin “that cry’s to heaven for vengeance”!…Homosexual activity is a form of sexual paraphilia…on the same level as coprophilia, zoophilia, necrophilia, pygmalianism , voyeurism and frotteurism…and more. This is a fact, without equivocation! Those who indulge in this perversion are guilty of a mortal sin…shocking, positively shocking..
Ohhh ~ Paleo!! Se my comment to Anne above. I don’t know what corprohila pygmaalin (sp?) or frotteurism are (and this gay girl isn’t going to look them up. Yuck!!!!) But I sure don’t want to be associated with them and what’s more I’ve read most of what the Church teaches about gay relationships (CCC, Cdl. Ratzinger’s letter, Always Our Children) and they don’r come close to the radical thing you just wrote. Please take it back.
Sorry…won’t take it back!…men who indulge in sodomizing each other is a gravely sinful act…in fact, it’s a sin, “that cry’s to heaven for vengeance”!..Two cities in the Old Testament were destroyed, due to the depraved and abominable acts of it’s denizens, who indulged in this perversion!…Have you ever heard of Sodom and Gomorrah?…
“Gay” relationships, are morally and intrinsically disordered…to believe otherwise is gravely sinful…
WRONG! If you want to be precise Pobot: Gay relationships are SINFUL….intrinsically so.
The orientation is “objectively disordered” because the homosexual urge does not lead to (is not “ordered” to) the goods of the sexual union, namely procreation and the union between husband and wife.
Paleobotanist they are also a sin….not only against the natural law but also offensive to our Lord…..
C&H, I do not see any comment of yours to me or any other Anne above, except the one from Mackz to me. To what comment are you referring and to what Anne are you referring? My comment at 5:32 pm seems to be the only one from any Anne posted..
Oh Anne ~ Sorry.. I thought I sent it. What it said is that as a gay woman I was uncomfortable with being gay linked to incest and beastiality.even though I’m sure you didn’t mean it. Then Mr,Palio associated us (or maybe it was just gay men) with all kind of iccky things.
My, my aren’t we being a little self righteous here, C&H? Whoever you are, especially since all those committing fornication and adultery (including heterosexuals) are lumped together in the Bible with incest and bestiality. They are all a breakage of the Sixth Commandment with just a gradual worsening of the seriousness of the sin What makes you think you are so special?
C&H, you apologized to me, and I need to apologize to you for being so sarcastic. Yes, bestiality is worse than homosexual behavior, although sodomy is a serious sin and called an abomination in the Holy Bible. As far as which is worse incest or sodomy, I would think it all depends on how often such behavior was engaged in and how much damage was done to the people involved and to society as a whole. I would leave that judgment up to God Almighty, but I certainly would not tempt God by engaging in any such behavior.
Hi Anne, I don’t know the bible very well (I know I should) can you tell me which passage lumps together fornication, adultery with beastiality and incest. I do know the CCC pretty well and I know the rules are.. like .. no sex except between husband and wife open to the possibility of conception. But I think that as bad as cheating on ypour spouse is, it is light years from B&I which are different and worse sins…..Oh Im me. I’m not Max and I don’t think I’m especially special.Thanks.
Mackz, sorry for the mix up, but I did get tired of explaining to you about the reason I posted what I did as I had explained it to you once before this. Perhaps, though, you had not read the previous post quite a few months ago. If so, you have my apologies.
” I do know the CCC pretty well ” Then you really do need to tell God how very sorry you are for referring to yourself as gay girl. You are not gay girl you are God’s girl and that quote about you knowing the CCC just means you are all the more “C”ulpable for the ‘H”ostility you have shown to God’s natural law.
“Keep yourself far from a false matter; do not kill the innocent and righteous. For I will not justify the wicked.” (Exodus 23:7).
C&H, when I said the sexual sins are all lumped together, I meant they are listed in Catholic prayer books, Catholic moral theology books, etc. and some parts of the Bible until those things forbidden by the Sixth Commandment against adultery. The 18th chapter of Leviticus specifically forbids several types of incest, sodomy and bestiality. These were practices of some of the pagan tribes around Israel. The Egyptian royalty even married their own brothers and sisters and some were born with deformities because of it — King Tutankhamen to be specific. Other tribes went so far as to sacrifice their own children to the god Moloch. Other Biblical passages against such things were mentioned above by others, including Romans 1:24 — 2:8. Such prohibitions are all through both the Old and New Testament. They were punished by death back then because they were no cures for STD’s, no hospitals and no places to quarantine very well and whole tribes could be wiped out by such diseases.
Read the Mosaic Law, in Deuteronomy and also in Leviticus. Know this: As heinous as bestiality and incest are, sodomy is the consequence of sin. All of these sins are death penalty sins in the time of Moses. But they are no less heinous now in the time of Jesus. It is all up to you, Sugar; you either respect and follow Christ into Heaven, or you die and suffer eternally.
Good catch Anne T. I saw that too. Did max/Mackz slip up to reveal her real mission?
C&H sure writes like max.
“O what a tangled mess we weave when at first we practice to deceive.”
Google: Ten Ways that Criminals Get Themselves Caught
Catherine, whether the two are the same I do not know, but Max did say several times that he lived in San Francisco, then he posted a post implying he was living in Germany. I questioned him about it, but I did not remember under what article he posted, so I do not know if he answered me or not. He is very flippant many times about very serious things, and I did answer a very similar post (actually if I remember correctly it was exactly the same) about bestiality for him before. Notice he did correct my spelling of the word,so he is not as naive as he pretends, but just likes to keep the conversation going. Almost as if he is encouraging others to come on and complain. There is a group in some states that have laws against the crime who are trying to get the laws taken off the books against bestiality, some include members of the LGBT community. It is not going over too well with PETA, though. Thank God for that one.
First, ladies, I am not a woman (last time I checked), but a man.
Second, I am not a lesbian.
Third, the name C&H only makes me think of those old sugar commercials, and now (darn it!) I can’t get that song out of my mind, thanks to you two!
A few times, both Mackz and Rodda displayed text style that was very businesslike, very professional, very authoritative, concise, clear … no nonsense, no emotional flair: Because of this, it would seem to me that they each are doing little more here than venting in their downtimes from their daily grind. Mackz never said he resides all the time in one or the other of the places mentioned. What caught my attention was the hard core business speak: Neither of these is being transparent, but why not?
I see the similarity in text style. But Mackz is male … if Mackz and C&H are the same, then C&H is not a woman. “Her” blogs do not seem authentically female. I’ve read countless of the world’s best fiction stories, and the “image” or whatever you call it, of the characters that the text provides seems very similar between Mackz and C&H. I’ve wondered for a while and just made this connection … after seeing the questioning by Anne T and Catherine. I’d venture they’re the same, Mackz and C&H … so, now I’m not sure I want to continue to call “her” Sugar.
C&H is another member of “lets normalize gay and make the straights accept us” crowd…Here’s to hoping that St Malachi was right…and put an end to everything
Maybe the next sermon — and not just at MHR — should be “Why are you here?” Did you come to worship God, to beg pardon for your sins, to thank God for all he has done for you and to ask for his help and mercy? Why here? Why this Catholic Church? Because you will offend God if you don’t come? Yes. Because you are obeying a precept of the Church? Good. Because you have a personal devotion to Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament? Great! Because you need to be nourished with God’s Word and his Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity? Excellent! Have you done anything since your last Sacramental Confession that is so grave that you should not receive the Blessed Sacrament? Seek Reconciliation and then re-dedicate yourselves to Christ. We all fall but we strive to rise again. Don’t listen to anyone who tells you that this far is “good enough”. We can always climb higher. Seek holiness. Seek to conquer all sensuality. Live for heaven. The Kingdom of God is now.
Being “HOMOSEXUAL”, means you are indulging in this sinful and gravely disordered lifestyle. By definition …a homosexual is not only a person who is attracted to the same sex physically, it mean’s you are living a “lifestyle”…in which case you are in a state of mortal sin…in fact, a “sin that cry’s to heaven for vengeance”! Temptation is just that temptation…when you act out, you are now a homosexual…Men who are indulging in this perversion are gravely sinning, if you seek out sodomy, you are putting yourself in the near occasion of sin…if you work to enact legislation, that makes “gay” marriage legal, you are also gravely sinning…the only thing a person can do is “war” against this temptation, till you die, this is just your cross…we all have different crosses…
Oh Mr. Paleo, please read the CCC (5365(?) to 5367 or about there. It teaches just the opposite. It also says we “don’t choose our condition” and that for many of us it is a burdon. That doesn’t mean that our fellow Catholics should add to that burdon.
Please try and refrain from spreading the lie, that the Church endorses “sodomy” and “sodomites”! Great virtue comes to those who reject this temptation…when you indulge in this perversion you are in a state of mortal sin…a “sin that cry’s to Heaven for vengeance”!
Jesus raised dead people to life, Sugar, and He can raise a homosexual to life as well. Know this, also, about catechisms … they come and go, they get revised, their wording is not infrequently vague or inconclusive … which is why they have tons of footnotes referring to Holy Scripture. So, why waste time with the middle man when you can access the Scritpures themselves, written clearly, conclusively and which don’t waste a lot of time which the bureaucrat generated catechisms do. You can also read the doctors of the Church, much more insightful than the catechisms, easier to make sense out of, and more fulfilling. The catechism impresses me as a kind of thing that at best refers troubled people to Church lawyers rather than to God … Style wise, the New Testament is written for reading and understanding in a direct manner. Not so the CCC. Does anyone seriously think the CCC will someday rival the Bible in the number published? What might the reason be, exactly? Sodomites like YFC read the CCC and then finding it inconclusive or vulnerable to easy misinterpretation, go elsewhere to find out what it means … sometimes they come here to this site.
I realize, paleo, that there is somewhat of a semantic discussion going on as to what constitutes homosexuality, but most people who study the subject professionally use homosexuality to denote a sexual orientation in which one is primarily attracted to persons of the same sex. The church in its teaching documents often uses the closely related term “homosexual persons” which, although I’m not aware of any official definition of the term, most people take to mean those persons who have a homosexual orientation. The general state of having a homosexual orientation is known as homosexuality. And the clear context of the church writings is that homosexual persons include those people who do not have sexual activity, thus an acknowledgement by the church that homosexuality exists, and is not in itself sinful.
To say that homosexuality by definition means that a gay person engages in sex with the same sex would be like saying that a heterosexuality is similarly a condition in which a person has sex with the opposite sex. Clearly there are heterosexual celibates, just as there are homosexual celibates.
True…homosexual’s who are tempted, must resist this temptation…it is a gravely sinful activity…fornication is a sin as well…the difference is two-fold, fornication is at least following the natural order of how sex is to be performed…between a man and a woman…this sin (fornication), does NOT “cry to Heaven for vengeance”…and never was a city in the Bible destroyed, due to “fornication”…a city, rather “two” were destroyed due to the shamefully ignominious acts of homosexual men, who were indulging in this depravity…Great virtue can come to a “gay” person, who resists this temptation, just as great virtue comes to a person, who resists having sexual relations with “farm animals”…
God created Adam and Eve. A man and a woman. NOT Adam and Steve or Madam and Eve. Homosexual acts are unnatural and disordered.
The disobedient are always wanting to know the why and wherefore of what is ordered…..St. Catherine of Sienna
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SECOND EDITION
Marriage in the order of creation
1603. “The intimate community of life and love which constitutes the married state has been established by the Creator and endowed by him with its own proper laws. . . . God himself is the author of marriage.”87 The vocation to marriage is written in the very nature of man and woman as they came from the hand of the Creator. Marriage is not a purely human institution despite the many variations it may have undergone through the centuries in different cultures, social structures, and spiritual attitudes. These differences should not cause us to forget its common and permanent characteristics. Although the dignity of this institution is not transparent everywhere with the same clarity,88 some sense of the greatness of the matrimonial union exists in all cultures. “The well-being of the individual person and of both human and Christian society is closely bound up with the healthy state of conjugal and family life.”89
Homosexuality is not semantic, YFC. Rather it is clear cut. Consider also, and you have yet to do so in any of your posts, that homosexuality is a chastisement from God for the sinful state of society. But there is no homosexual who does not have free will (even those who’ve sold their souls to the devil yet have at least an iota of … well, maybe not, since there is the “unforgiveable sin). Bottom line, YFC, give it up or you’re doomed.
I reject the notion that homosexuality, homosexual people, or the homosexual orientation is a chastisement from God. Nowhere in scripture, tradition, or church teaching does it say this.
Those who indulge in this perversion (sodomy) are living in a “state of mortal sin”…whether or not you believe it, or approve of it YFC is irrelevant…you will conform to the teaching of Holy Mother Church…not the other way ’round…
YFC, Scripture also points out that sodomy is unnatural … even nature pukes at sodomy.
Please see my comment earlier to Paleo making the distinction between being homosexual (gay) and engaging in homosexual sexual activity. Scripture, Dear Skai, says nothing about homosexuality as a sexual orientation, and the teaching of the Church about it is that gay people do not choose their condition, and that the condition is not, of itself, sinful. In summary, being gay is neither a choice nor a sin. That is the authentic teaching of the magisterium.
Disgusting stuff. Someone doing this sort of stuff should not show his face in public.
The leading and upstanding citizens of the City of Sodom attempted to gang rape the angels of God, and thus those two angels destroyed the whole city and the other sodomite city and towns and villages in their sphere.
No amount of “defense mechanism” rationalizing, will make “homosexual behavior”, congruent with Catholic teaching on “faith and morals”…this behavior is the antithesis of what the Church and Sacred Scripture teach, regarding this disordered lifestyle…
Anonomous who followed my comment quoting Romans 1: 24-32 with Romans 2: 1-8 making unjust and unfounded assumptions. As a matter of fact I do not do such things. I lead a chaste and sinless life. Romans 2: 1-8 cautions against the very thing you are doing. We are commanded not to judge what is uncertain only. Otherwise St. Paul would never have also said: “Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.” (Ephesians 5:11).
That pastor should say good riddance to such parishioners. He should not even tolerate them. Saints like St. John Chrysostom would not even let them into his Church. It was from taking such a firm stand against public sinners that brought about his death, but he has all of eternity to rejoice.
Did you happen to catch yesterday’s Gospel reading? The one where Jesus was rebuked by the pharisees for hanging out with sinners? Who then goes on to tell the story of the wayward son, who is welcomed back into the family with a huge party – before the son even confesses to his father?
Do you think there’s even a little bit of parallel here between parishioners and the son who returns to the father? Between the jealous but well behaving other son who complains that the father is treating the wayward son to a party to – let’s just say – those who follow CCC to the letter?
C’mon YFC…stop the rationalizing…the routine is played out…it’s getting old senor!…nobody is going to “champion” what you are peddling…you know it…I know it…your efforts would be better spent assisting those who are steeped in this perversion, to make an exit forthwith!…and return to the bosom of Holy Mother Church…the Barque of Peter…one good sacramental confession, is even more powerful then an exorcism…fact!
Referencing the Gospel of the week is a rationalizing routine that is getting old? “Peddlers” the Gospel must “return” to the Church?
No…you’re desire to “root” for your team…the “homosexual” team, that you feel a need to champion…you have used non- scientific “mumbo-jumbo” and a whole series of “faux” intellectual theatrics, in an attempt to reshape the thinking of your fellow bloggers…sorry, it just ain’t happenin’ senor…
You are correct, Your Fellow Catholic. Thanks for reminding us.
PA, you’re on a roll (no pun intended).
False, YFC. The wayward son implied his confession by returning. Read the story and try to read it without your gay agenda.
YFC, if you were a repentant gay man, then your posts would be much different; however, your posts consistently provide an apologetics for the gay lifestyle … which is not separate from sodomy.
Agreed, Skai. The difference is between those who are afflicted with sinful urges and suppress them in the name of righteousness, and those who are engaging in sinful acts and are loud and proud about being called sinners and fully intend to keep on sinning and promoting sin to others, as well as its social acceptability. Those who are not repentant are not behaving as Jesus taught us, and they know it, and yet they keep trying to act like Catholics and hope to eventually hoodwink us into going along with it. We’re hip to the differences, as you demonstrated, Skai. Those differences are profound.
God told you not to do this stuff.
Really? You are going to try bring our Lord into this? Really? You think a God who lets his son get crucified will have a problem letting you go to hell for not taking advantage of his sons crucifiction?
Sinners come to Church so that they change their ways!!
I am not sure what unjust or unfounded assumption you think I tried to make although I am glad to read that you are chaste but alarmed to read that you are sinless. (1 John 1:8) I am sorry that you felt judged by my continuation the Epistle. It would be rare to find someone who hasn’t committed the sins listed, although their guilt can only be determined by God. I have never heard your idea that we are commanded not to judge only what is uncertain. The Baltimore Catechism teaches that we can never judge a person’s guilt because we cannot know their state of mind when committing the offense. I remind you that all Catholics are required to go to Mass on Sunday, even if they are not able to receive Communion.
Many priest’s have tried to paint a harmless, even innocuous picture of homosexuality and it’s practitioners…why?…because these dissident clerics are very probably “gay” and may very well be indulging in this perversion…I have met 2 priest’s who died from AIDS… and they didn’t get it playing “chinese checkers”… if you get my drift?
O lord, what a viper’s nest was opened up through these posts generated (as always) by Mark from PA, then continued by Jon, et al. Listen you guys, GET OVER IT! The Catholic church teaches that ALL homosexual ACTS are INTRINSICALLY EVIL, NOT the temptation to homosexuality! That’s GAY 101. GET IT? So all the labrynthine and tortuous reasoning in the universe is EVER gonna change that. If you’re homo (or not) STAY AWAY from questionable dating sites that promote SINFUL CONDUCT, be one straight or gay. That’s just one common-sense rule. Another would be DON’T GO to sites on the internet that are photographically lascivious or impure, whether GAY or STRAIGHT. Make sense to you yet? Finally, as St. James says, “flee from the devil and he’ll run from you.” In other words, DON’T put yourself knowingly in a near occasion of sin, make HASTE from it. Do all of these simple rules add up to a formula for a way of life if one has SSA? Then GO FOR THEM! And stop trying to confuse others on this site with torured reasoning or deliberate distortions in order to try and justify yourselves, else you possibly be thought of as a “troll.” One more thought occurs to me. There is an organization called “Courage” that’s been around for quite a while, and has been VERY successful in healing people from their SSA issues.If you need their services just google them on the internet. AND AS ALWAYS, GOD BLESS ALL, MARKRITE
Your Fellow Catholic: There is no parallel between those parishioners and the prodigal son or the sinners Jesus kept company with, because the prodigal son and the sinners Jesus forgave acknowledged their sins and were sorry for it, whereas these parishioners are hardened in their sins and are not sorry for them, but rather they insist that such great sins be respected.It is as much a sin to consent to evil as it is to commit it, as my quote above from Romans 1: 24-32 makes plain and as the Church has always taught. Forgiveness and communion is only for those who are sorry and sin no more.
YFC has the most illogical understanding of the parable of the prodigal son I have yet read!…The prodigal son is indicative of a repentant sinner, who is shamed by his selfish, sinful behavior and return’s, fully aware of his need for redemption and guidance…YFC would have you believe that the Gospel is an endorsement for “active homosexual” behavior, i.e. “SODOMY” and those who indulge in this perversion…the dreaded “SODOMITE”!
This situation is not like the prodigal son; it is like the parable of the publican and the tax collector.
One of the differences between you and I is that I do not make assumptions about the state of grace of the person sitting next to me in the pew. And I certainly don’t make assumptions about the state of grace of the person sitting in a pew miles and miles away from me.
One more thing…Jon would have you believe that being homosexual in orientation is not disordered…it is very much disordered. The Church teaches that this lifestyle is disordered, which means that “clinically”, it is “maladaptive”…this means you are operating in a modality that is not beneficial for “growth”, socially and certainly not spiritually… in other words, this lifestyle… the “homosexual” lifestyle… is inherently defective and disordered…if a person indulges in “same sex” relationships, they have committed a sin “that cry’s to heaven for vengeance”…this is male on male sex…”sodomy” if you will, and the Church does not endorse or approve of this “disordered” lifestyle! It is not a “red herring”…it is “sin”, without equivocation!
Google the wonderful and Christian work of the esteemed psychotherapist Dr. Nicolosi. He is a devout Catholic who has treated a number of homosexual men, and assisted many in “curing” them of this disorder…this inclination, being desirous to be romantic with other men. This is a curable paraphilia, and Dr. Nicolosi has worked for the Archdiocese in LA for a number of years, and his research and treatment modalities are respected and valued by many in the field of psychology. many “gay” men would not want to seek out his help…why?…because these homosexual men DO NOT WANT TO BE CURED!… They want to remain steeped in this depraved lifestyle!
While you Google Dr. Nicolosi, you might also seek out the testimony of his victims. One of them testified under oath at the prop 8 trial. Dr. nicolosi has never published a peer reviewed article of his work, and he has caused great harm to many individuals.
You are causing harm to many individuals by trying to pass sinful and unnatural acts that are repugnant as good.
what act have I passed off as good? and where is there evidence that I have harmed anyone? Dr. Nicolosi, on the other hand, has made a career out of what he does, and many individuals have complained about what he directly has done to them. The testimony is on the internet, as sworn testimony.
YFC, you sodomites have been complaining about what Jesus did to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah for thousands of years. You hold the torch (like the pun, dude?). Btw, AIDS has rampaged through the sodomites in the western world. Its genesis is a whole nuther question. But the word on the street is that the alleged straight men in Africa caught it from animals … guess they’re not so straight after all, wouldn’t you agree? The Lord gives and the Lord takes, Blessed be the name of the Lord (Job).
Well I will say this…I have met Dr. Nicolosi, he is a devout, good man…a virtuous man…deviants who endorse the perversion you advocate are not only living in a state of mortal sin, but serve as the primary vector for the HIV virus…man YFC, you just keep sinkin’ deeper and deeper into your morass of darkness…
By the way YFC…have you a PhD?…have you published a peer reviewed article?…if you have not, please refrain from waxing “professorial” …I am certain Dr. Nicolosi’s theoretical and experiential background in the field of psychology and behavioral health is just a bit more advanced then yours, this I can assure you is a certainty…
Sorry Paleo – you are wrong about HIV, just as you are wrong about so many other things. The primary “vector” for HIV is straight married men in Africa.
So Nicolosi cofounded NARTH with a guy who was caught a year or so ago with a male escort accompanying him in his travels. Today, it was announced that NARTH lost its non-profit status because it hasn’t filed proper paperwork with the IRS for 3 years. Any thoughts on either of those two developments?
Your Fellow Catholic, please share with us the testimony about Dr. Nicolosi. The medical and psychiatric establishment admit that people’s sexual orientations cannot be changed. From what I have read Dr. Nicolosi is not all that esteemed and is out of the mainstream. Does he actually go around claiming to “cure” people? You can’t really cure someone who isn’t sick. Is it that good to try to con parents into thinking you can “fix” their children when the parents need to love their children and accept them?
I don’t think we are permitted to post links (for security purposes) but the text of Ryan Kendall’s sworn Prop 8 testimony is available on Scribd, which you can find through the google.
Your Fellow Catholic, I read some of Ryan Kendall’s testimony. He was abused by fellow students in school. When his parents found out about this, he was abused by his parents. His parents send him to Dr. Nicolosi. The therapy he received he felt was abusive. Thank God Ryan survived. No young person should have to go through what he went through.
1. Trying to pass off a Google search as a way to find out about the integrity of a person is nonsense.
2. I have never heard of this doctor and you are now here telling me about him and tarnishing his good name, a mortal sin, holding all factors constant, otherwise known as Calumny
Destroy the reputation and honor of one’s neighbor.
3. Trying in any way to defend sodomy as not being harmful to the soul, or even celebrating it in public is a serious offense not only against nature and God.
4. How does Sodomy injure society you ask? It devalues human sexuality by reducing it to a mere pleasurable act.
But, I am telling you this knowing very well you are mostly going to ignore it, at your own peril.
bwangi – Please read what I write carefully. I am very careful on this site to not promote “sodomy”. I DO use this site to promote what the Church teaches about the dignity of gay people, that it is not a chosen sexual orientation, and that the orientation is not sinful. If you have an issue with these ideas, then you should take up your complaint with the Magisterium, not with me.
In part, we are having these discussions because the Church rarely talks about the relationships that form between people of the same sex who are gay. It rarely, if ever, discusses what support it can give to gay people who find themselves to be parents, or support for the kids directly. We are having these discussions because, although the Church teaches that violence agaisnt gay people is also sinful, it lobbies against hate crimes bills and against the recently signed Violence Against Women Act.
Imagine that last point! The Church, which has always supported the Violence Against Women act in the past, lobbied AGAINST it when the act for the first time included violence against lesbians. Why is this the case? Why does the Church say it is opposed to violence, then act against not only the lesbian victims of violence, but against ALL women?
I will tell you why YFC because hate crime bills will eventually become thought crimes, that’s it, dare utter opinion against the gay mafia and be punished…who are you to question the Church on ANYTHING???? burn the rainbow flag
The difference between you and I YFC is clear…I am married…you are “gay”…and you advocate the homosexual lifestyle…
Your Fellow Catholic, some men think they can “cure” lesbians by forcing themselves on these women. They think they are helping the women by raping them. I find it terrible that the Church has not supported the Violence Against Women Act.
You are absolutely right. “YFC has the most illogical understanding of the parable of the prodigal son I have yet read!” …The prodigal son is indicative of a repentant sinner, who is shamed by his selfish, sinful behavior and return’s, fully aware of his need for redemption and guidance.”
The father of lies has seduced many lost souls into believing and following something called the Rainbow Bible which produces the gospel of “I Will Not Serve.”
Wonderful insight Catherine…those who are on this blog, attempting to “champion” a disordered and depraved sexual lifestyle, that is not congruent with the Church’s teaching, are receiving their motivation from the “fallen one”…
Catherine and Paleobotanist you are both correct and I applaud your comments to help YFC find his way…..someone has to lovingly correct him and you both did just well because what you said is true.
Especially Catherine I appreciate what you said about the rainbow bible, the gay activist has created one as you describe it, it is part of their agenda to grow their lies! Because their homosexuality is a disorder, they are easily deceived…..I have found them to lack the ability to reason well, I pray that God’s graces will help them find their way back home to Christ, may they seek to embrace God’s graces…. I pray that to St. Michael to strike at the evil one, the deceiver. To protect us all from his snares because that evil is truly powerful, we humans, since we sin and some refuse to lean on Christ for help and contrition, then that is when the evil one plays with our weakness…we must stay on guard, we must not fall asleep, a spiritual sleep can be a deadly one for our salvation….we need our Lord’s protection and from our lady, angels and saints.
Peace, the Love of Christ be with you and all!
Jon confuses terms…he delusionally believes that the Church somehow approves of, or has taken some stance, that is “non-judgmental” or not critical of the “homosexual” lifestyle…”intrinsically disordered” and “sinful”, are words and terms used by the Church, to express concern and judgement toward this behavior and lifestyle, I am still unclear what he is trying to prove?…the Church does not endorse, approve of, nor champion this disordered lifestyle…when something is disordered, it means that it is maladaptive, both spiritually and socially…the natural “order” of this behavior is not congruent with the mores and norms of our culture, and furthermore, “disordered”, is not an attribute… attribute’s are “positive”…something that is “disordered” and intrinsically evil”, is the very antithesis of what the Church is teaching on “faith and morals”, this “lifestyle” is not congruent with the teachings of Holy Mother Church on “faith and morals”…gay people are all God’s children, He loves them very dearly…so much so, that He died upon the cross, so that they would merit eternal life, when the struggle is complete…indulging in this depraved and disordered lifestyle is giving in to “grave” mortal sin, that can and will lead a person into perdition…that goes on in perpetuity…think man!
Pobo’s comment on March 12, 2013 at 10:15 am is wrong.
Your error Pobo is that you are using the phrase “disordered” in a medical, psychiatric manner, which the Church never intended.
Your talk of “modality”, “maladaptive” and even “lifestyle” are NOT CHURCH language! Why don’t you just stick to what the Church is saying? Namely, that the homosexual inclination is ordered towards an instrinsically sinful action, and therefore is morally (not scientifically or medically) “disordered.”
Fine…I agree …not only is it a gravely “sinful” condition…as it is disordered and leads to an intrinsically sinful lifestyle…fine we agree…the DSM-III listed this condition… homosexuality as a form of sexual paraphilia…right up their with coprophilia, zoophilia, necrophilia, frotteurism, pygmalianism and a whole host of other sexual anomalies! Special interest groups and certain lobbyists, aggressively worked to have “homosexuality removed from the DSM-IV, before it’s publication…which for many behavioral scientist’s was irrelevant, as many did and still do find this sexual behavior, an outgrowth of sexual paraphilia, and treat it as such…in fact Dr. Nicolosi, a renowned and respected psychotherapist, has treated a number of “gay” men, quite successfully in Los Angeles…one more point…the “mores and norms” of our society are still not tolerant of this lifestyle and disapprove of it…as was evidenced here in California a few years back, when it was voted down, “gay” marriage that is, on proposition 8…even a progressive state such as this was not ready to have men and men masquerading as a married couple…you see Jon, even secular dictionaries do not define marriage as a union between men and men, only men and women…I was never saying the Church” sees this condition as anything more then an outgrowth of “evil”, as it very much is…it is a gravely sinful and an intrinsically evil lifestyle. The scientific and medical community, also recognizes this condition (homosexuality) as a problem in our society, as the act of “sodomy” has been the primary vector for spreading the disease of HIV. Whether or not you believe that “homosexuality is a form of sexual paraphilia Jon is irrelevant…many in the psychiatric community do, and you can google this data at your convenience. But you and I do agree that this is a gravely sinful, disordered lifestyle as the Church and Sacred Scripture have articulated…no good can come from two men sodomizing each other…it is a sure path to perdition…
Paleo you keep saying that the homosexual “condition” is gravely sinful. This is contrary to official church teaching.
NO Palebot, we DO NOT AGREE! You persistently get things wrong. Let me make it simpler for you.
1) According to the Church, the homosexual orientation is NOT a sin. The 1986 CDF Letter makes that plain.
2) According to the Church, the homosexual orientation is “ordered” towards (is oriented towards) an intrinsic evil: homosexual sex. However, on its own, the homosexual orientation is not by itself a sin.
3) Because the homosexual orientation (which is not a sin) is ordered towards a sinful act, the orientation is therefore “objectively disordered” (This is not to say that the orientation is a sin. It is THIS precise point that you get things wrong!)
3) Choosing to act upon the homosexual urge IS A SIN, and gravely so: a mortal sin.
4) What makes for sin is free choice. Many homosexuals did not choose to be attracted to the same sex. The Church does not say anything about the origins of the orientation, only that the condition itself is not a sin.
You even contradict yourself Jon…by the very words the Church has articulated…”homosexuality” is a disordered lifestyle…the Church articulates this clearly…and I agree…you seem to be in your own circular argument, chasing your tail…
No paleo, you do not understand what the church clearly articulates. If you would like to quote a magisterial source to say how Jon and I are wrong, go ahead, but you just keep saying the same thing over and over again, and what you say is not correct.
Wrong! The Church has never officially used the word lifestyle.
What the Church has judged objectively disordered is bigger than just the homosexual “lifestyle.”
What is not ordered to the goods of the nuptial union is the homosexual inclination itself, not the “lifestyle”—whatever you may mean by it.
Lastly, there’s no contradiction at all in anything that I have said. I have remained consistent throughout because I adhere to the Church’s teachings on this. Rather, it is YOU who are on wobbly ground!
Listen to the Magisterium!
Hopefully “ALL” ambiguity has been cleared up…and Jon is aware that I have “ALWAYS” believed that the Church teaches that homosexuality (relations between men is gravely sinful)…so sinful in fact, that it “cry’s to heaven for vengeance”…I also believe that on a purely scientific level that this condition is a form of sexual paraphilia…truth be told, I believe all “papraphilia’s” are a form of intrinsic evil…the medical community ascribes clinical terms to define deviance, which I agree with theoretically, as a behavioral scientist, (and gemologist)…from a Catholic perspective, I also believe that these “papraphilia’s are deeply rooted in :original sin”…and that they have their origin from the “evil one”… as does ASPD…”antisocial personality disorder”…hopefully all ambiguity has been cleared up…and we can proceed accordingly fellow Catholics…
I think that the hatred people have for gay people has its origin from the “evil one.” I think demonizing of gay people is sinful. Those that treat others with kindness and respect are following the teachings of Christ.
And those that advocate sodomy are also gravely sinning…
PA I know homosexual disorder is directly from Satan, I know this more than you ever will….burn the rainbow flag
I guess you would have us believe that is was the evil one who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.
PA hatred is when mankind is indulging in sinful behavior especially ones that offend the natural law that God has placed for mankind…that is where the real hatred comes from!
Yes I agree with Canisuis…..
yeah umm no. Gay people are stil ridiculed, in some places they are harassed, beaten up, killed, imprisoned, and put to death. This hatred cannot possibly be “caused by” the person who is killed. Even the Church has condemned this. You should too.
Yes, I know you do Abeca Christian. I know well the views that you and Canisius have regarding homosexual persons. You have both made your feeling clear.
PA my feeling were forged by lifetime of abuse… that’s what has been made clear to me
I tossed in the gemologist tag in my last post…yes I am a behavioral scientist… and avocationally am a gemologist as well…two distinctly unrelated spheres of science…behavioral science being an outgrowth of psychology and gemology being an outgrowth of mineralogy.
Wrong again YFC…the primary scourge of HIV infection in this country is from “gay” men, having unprotected sex…look up the CDC statistics on this…the misinformation you provide is galling…the numbers are overwhelming…
This country, perhaps, but gays extend throughout the world, and your original post did not limit yourself to this country. Can’t you just admit when you are wrong?
YFC to show the demented mindset of gays, I have read there are gay sub groups that seek out HIV positive men so they can have wanton unprotected sex with each other, the logic being they are already infected. If you don’t this as a pathology or mental defect then you would know evil if it stared you in the face
Canisius you are correct…I read about this subculture, soe years ago, but debated sharing it with the bloggers who patronize this site. What is even more alarming is that some of these “sodomites” are also into hardcore sadomasochism, fisting, and blood…the shameful depravity that some of these men are steeped in… would appall even the likes of the Marquis de Sade…Caligula would blush from these excesses.
Not my fellow Catholic, I was stopped in my tracks when I read your question to Paleobotanist, “Can’t you just admit when you are wrong?”
That question is the very question that you most need to ask yourself, Not my fellow Catholic.
Your entire life’s philosophy is pro-homosexuality, and one imagines therefore that you are simultaneously declaring that your life is a life of serious mortal sin – and not solitary sin, mind you, but serious sin that directly involves willing others and further attempts to influence those whose minds and values are still forming, all of which is clearly evil, deprived, anti-social, and self-serving, and, of course leads inevitably to the eternal damnation and suffering of your soul in the life hereafter.
If you don’t believe that, you are most definitely not anyone’s true fellow Catholic, at least not as your thinking leads you to act at present.
With your fine mind, I would hope and pray that you would stop to consider what I am trying to share with you and indeed become worthy of the wonderful title you have awarded yourself with your internet handle. Reform your thinking, turn to Jesus Christ, give up your life of sin, take up your cross, and follow Jesus, who loves you truly, and indeed become our fellow Catholic. In that alone there is salvation for your eternal soul.
At the moment I realize that for reasons of your own selfish personal passion, or more accurately, addiction to expressing, practicing and promoting evil and dangerous practices prosaicly called same sex attraction, you are unable to think clearly, despite that strong, God-given brain you possess but presently misuse, in the service of that addictive compulsion, over which you do indeed have control, as does anyone.
You are perfectly capable of choosing to ask yourself, “Can’t I just admit when I am wrong?” rather than demanding that others do so in the futile hope that they will capitulate and agree that your evil and twisted thinking and self-indulgent behavior is a good thing for you to be doing. That will never happen. The only good thing that can come of your question is to have the courage to ask it of your own self instead, the only person over which you have control.
Were you to do so, you would indeed be on the right road to becoming a truly faithful Catholic. As such, you will be thus charged with promoting the teachings of Jesus Christ for the love of Christ and your fellow man, to say nothing of the good of your own eternal soul, for which I promise to pray, as I hope you will do for mine.
I address you not from hatred, as homosexuals tend to charge, but from a position of hope for you as one who would obviously like to be considered our fellow Catholic and whose eternal soul is worthy of saving.
Just by declaring yourself Catholic, you have shown yourself willing to become a faithful follower of Christ. May I encourage you on that journey of faith and pray that you will have the courage to continue to seek the light? God loves you and wants you to follow the teachings of His Son so that you can spend eternity with The Lord.
Let us pray that you will be uplifted to holiness and become a man of righteousness rather than one who chooses to fall by the wayside due to simple, evil lust. You are worth more than that.
Beautifully articulated MaryAnne…” notYFC”, is involved, as is his compadre Jon, in convincing everyone that this is a lifestyle that should be “tolerated”…that we “ALL” need to be more progressive and tolerant in our opinions and views, concerning this disordered lifestyle…I am still unclear what Jon’s motivation is…we all agree that “same sex romance” is gravely sinful”…what precisely is his motivation?
I don’t see anywhere where Jon said homosexuality should be “tolerated.” This is flagrantly false.
The true teaching of the Church is what Jon has articulated. Acting on homosexual urges is sinful. The homosexual inclination itself is not sinful, but “objectively disordered.”
This is the plain teaching of the Church.
It seems to me that Paleobotanist is wanting to say that being homosexual is a sin. Well, that is not what the Church is teaching.
Paleobotanist, Jon’s intention, in my reading of all this, is to correct you. You keep on saying that homosexuality is a sin. It is not. The CDF is very clear on that. Acting on it is a sin, but the orientation on its own is not.
Everyone here but YFC is is in your camp Jon/Dan..,I never, nor anyone has ever said that being “gay” is a sin…yes I believe this is a defective lifestyle and needs modification and can be cured…still not a sin…when a gay person indulges in sodomy, they sin gravely, you have been exposed!
Gay people are all God’s children…we are called to love them, and pray for them…as a lifestyle choice we can never endorse or approve of “gay” and lesbian sexuality…this homosexual behavior is never to be endorsed or condoned…but love and prayer must always be extended to our “gay” Catholic brother’s and sister’s who struggle with this cross…it must be a very difficult cross… pray for strength
One more thing…the Church teaches that homosexuality “IS” a disordered lifestyle…but that a homosexual who is not “acting” out has committed NO sin…I totally agree…the Church still teaches that this orientation “IS” disordered!…something that is disordered is NOT a positive…nor an attribute…
they called to be chaste…
Mark from PA: “I wrote to you in an epistle, not to keep company with fornicators. I mean not with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or the extortioners, or the servers of idols; otherwise you must needs go out of this world. But now I have written to you, not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother, be a fornicator, or covetous, or a server of idols… with such a one, not so much as to eat… Put away the evil one from among yourselves.” (1 Corinthians 5: 9-13). Douay-Rheims Bible, the true original.
Homosexuals work hard at neutralizing good Catholics and making their sin and perversion acceptable.
Jon’s apologetic’s of the Church’s teaching on homosexuality is not accurate…the church uses the word “disordered” to describe the behavior and inclination/orientaion of the homosexual…being “disordered” does not mean these individual’s are “sinning”, but their lifestyle is not congruent with the Church’s teaching on human sexuality…and is not congruent with what the Gospel’s articulate. being is a disordered state is not an attribute and not something someone should wish to remain in…in perpetuity…Jon is somehow attempting to champion the “homosexual” lifestyle as harmless and no big deal…it is a very big deal…do not be fooled…
Where in Catholic teaching is there a reference to “lifestyle”?
I’m gay, and I have no idea what people who talk about the gay “lifestyle” mean. Honestly, you’d think we all lived in communal huts made of carbon fiber and drank exotic smoothies and slept for 14 hours at time while being fanned with palm branches by exotic bronzed goddesses from the next island over. Is there some manual on what the gay “lifestyle” is supposed to mean, and how to live it?
C’mon man…your whole argument has been exposed, it’s played out YFC!…with crystal clear summation, the teaching on this “lifestyle”, i.e. “same sex people who are romantically involved”, has been exposed as being “gravely sinful and disordered”…I am now bringing things into greater clarity and focus for you… and for those who are seeing thing’s myopically on the teaching of Holy Mother Church, concerning “homosexual activity/romance”…can I be any clearer?
I agree with Jon. His words here are solidly reflective of the Church’s teachings.
The Church does not apply the word “disordered” to the homosexual act. The Church calls it sin, and a mortal one too.
“Disordered” as Jon has been telling you Paleobotanist is the Church’s judgment on the homosexual inclination.
Honestly, I don’t know why you should have any problems with what the Congregation For The Doctrine of the Faith says on this issue. Unless, you want to mean that homosexuality is itself a sin. But you see, that is not the Church’s teaching on this issue.
I and everyone else has been clear…clear as crystal Dan…your need to champion this hopeless cause is as funny as Jon’s and YFC’s…”gay” people are not sinning, because they are “gay”…provided they live chaste lives…living an actively sexual existence with a same sex partner is what we have been discussing, they must live “chaste” lives, PERIOD! Heterosexual’s can have sex, with the partner they marry, exclusively… Sodomy is a grave, disordered act… so horrific, “it cry’s to heaven for vengeance” Dan …in fact, this is why Sodom and Gomorrah were razed to the ground…due to the depraved sexual appetite of the “homosexual men” who were sodomizing each other, they were steeped in this putrescent sexual lifestyle! I sure hope you agree Dan, this is scriptural and this is what our faith teach’s on maters of “faith and morals”… there are no loop-holes my friend…
2357- Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women, who experience an inclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It takes a great variety of forms, through the centuries and in different cultures. It’s psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on on sacred scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of great depravity, tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are “intrinsically disordered”. They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complimentarity. Under no circumstance can they be approved.
This seems pretty clear to me Jon…”chastity” is the only recourse for these people (homosexual’s)…same sex romance is forbidden, which is what I have said all along…we love the sinner and “hate” the sin…sodomy and same sex romance is gravely disordered and a sin that cry’s to Heaven for vengeance”!
Do not be fooled by bloggers on this page…the Church is very clear…explicitly clear…if a man or woman is homosexual in orientation, they must remain celibate, this is a fact without equivocation…indulging in same sex romance and sodomy are gravely sinful…sin’s that cry to heaven for vengeance!…furthermore, to illustrate the scriptures prohibition on acting out this lifestyle we can look at the destroyed cities found in the book of Genesis…Sodom and Gomorrah, these cities were destroyed because the denizens of these cities were steeped in corruption, they were indulging in the “perversion” of sodomy…HIV is also a horrible outgrowth of this sexual activity…in fact the primary vector for this disease in our nation is through “gay” men…
There you go again talking about vectors of disease. Once again, I hasten to inform our dear readers, that the largest vector of HIV is straight men – mostly who live in Africa.
Do you live in Africa?…i don’t
The men in Africa, who have this disease, were found to be committing unnatural acts of zoophilia with “green monkey’s”…this behavior was rampant throughout West Africa, even extending into the Congo
Keep trying, Paleo, you’ll eventually understand that what you declare, with so much certainty, about what the Church teaches is not, in fact, what she teaches. There have been at least 4 different people on here who’ve tried to explain it to you. The Church teaches that homosexuality is neither a choice nor a sin. And it is certainly not a “lifestyle”.
The cross that must be borne by those afflicted with same sex attraction is no harder to bear than the cross borne by any one of us who abstains from the sins of lust in which we find ourselves “afflicted” by opposite sex attraction. Abstinence is not harder for homosexuals who choose the higher ground; it is not charitable for us to imagine that it is, thus giving the homosexual a reason to indulge his or her disordered lusts. Keeping our sudden sexual impulses under control is required of all adults in a civilized society and is no harder for blondes than brunettes, but is expected of us all.
It’s just that homosexuals give themselves permission to do whatever they want to whomever they want whenever they want, as one of the many evil indulgences of the homosexual subculture. Pitying them for having to exercise self-control is telling them that it isn’t expected of them.
Nowhere in the teachings of the Catholic Church are we taught to go forward and sin some more, but this message is implicit in our pity for their having to bear “their cross,” which is no heavier for them than for anyone else who is a self-respecting, other-respecting grown-up.
As usual MaryAnne, you are a calm voice of reason, considering this is such an impassioned topic…
Maryanne, how do you know whether the cross born by gay people is no greater than the cross born by straight people? Straight people never have to face a life of celibacy. Never. You have never faced the obligation of celibacy, without any possible reprieve or laicization. So how would you possibly know?
Nobody said life was fair…nor that all crosses were of the same magnitude YFC…look within yourself, the strength you possess, may just surprise you…
Are you a former priest or religious YFC?
YFC, some straight people never find a marriage partner and so remain celebate. Some married couples end up with physical or mental issues that prevent them from enjoying marital benefits. Some people end up divorced and cannot remarry so they end up celebate. The Church teaches us that eternal life and the love of God is better than human love and earthly pleasure and is worth all sorrows, sufferings and sacrifice.
A wise and holy cleric once told me that “only “savages” indulge in the perversion of sodomy”…this wise and holy cleric from Tennessee was also my spiritual director and confessor for a number of years…he looked a little like Andrew Jackson…this statement burned an indelible impression in my head…
This explains a lot, Paleo. But I think a cleric who refers to loving individuals as savages has some more wisdom and holiness to gain.
LOL!…you should be 1/10th as holy and virtuous my friend, as this saintly man…if you were, you wouldn’t be here stumping for same sex marriage…as usual, your thought processes are so twisted, they almost defy my response…
I know because I am a human being, and I do not have sexual contact with every attractive man I see, nor with anyone to whom I am not married.
Even then, most of us, of course, have spent many more moments, days and years of our lives not being in sexual contact with anyone, and that includes married straight people, YFC.
Being married is definitely not equal to being sexually fulfilled at all moments of your life, and most people, after being married for quite a while, find that sexual fulfillment is definitely more rare than sexual abstinence.
As a bright man, you astonish me in seeming to be completely unaware of the simple facts of life for straight people, married or single. Even the average married couple in the first few years of their lives partake in sexual contact an average of 3 times per week. Assuming 100% fulfillment with each contact, that still leaves 4 days per week of abstinence.
Figuring up the hours, the vast majority of all hours of any given week, even during the most active years of one’s sexual life, are not spent engaging in married sexual connection, meaning that most of us spend most of our lives at least temporarily abstinent.
All the years of childhood and advanced age are generally spent in chaste abstinence, as is well known.
After all, as all adults discover, even homosexuals, I am sure, there is much more to life than sexual activity, even for the most seually active straight or gay couples on the planet. Most of us have to eat, sleep, work, clean house, pay our bills, drive to friends’ homes, attend church services and functions, go to school, take showers, brush our teeth, cook, wash our clothes, run errands, talk to our neighbors, mow our lawns, get our hair cut, go to the doctor and/or dentist, go to movies, spend time with our families, and shop during the majority of the hours of a day.
Many couples (over 20%) spend years living as brother and sister due to a great variety of factors. During that time of temporary or permanent abstinence, most do not cruise looking for hook-ups, unlike homosexuals, nor do they spend their time wondering about how active other people’s sex lives are. Many people are not even married during much of their adult lives, if you stop to think about it. Although I will grant you, that is no guarantee that they are also abstaining from sexual contact, even though they are spending much more time abstinent than being sexual.
My point is, most of us learn to control ourselves and do so for most of our lives. That’s how we spend our lives, YFC! Have you not noticed?
It would be helpful to all of us if homosexuals were not so preoccupied with sex, and seeking our sexual conquests, so that infections would be reduced, and sites like ours would not be infected by people obsessed by certain forms of sexual conquest which have nothing to do with Godliness or procreation, let alone human dignity and self-respect.
That was a lovely essay Maryanne. But you mistake permanent, forced abstinence, and its result – being forced into a life of loneliness and lovelessness – with temporary abstinences that everyone – everyone – engages in. Being forced to live a life devoid of the serious in depth relationship that permanent married partners become is to sentence someone to decades of misery. As the Bible itself says right up front, “It is not good that man should be alone.” This odd requirement that the Church makes, for a mandatory lifetime of loneliness, is far far different than a life open to the possibility of marital love, even if one lives for a long time as a single person, or a life in which a person chooses to live alone.
But you raise a good point which I wish was talked about more in this venue. Like straight people, gay people, even sexually active ones, spend a very small portion of their time engaging in sex, and have lives and loves that are far richer than what can be contained within a moment of passion. If more CCD readers and commenters understood this, they might find it easier to live the Catholic Church command that homosexuals should be treated with respect and dignity. Instead, because they can’t stop thinking of what we do in bed, we are reduced to a unidimensional box – one which just today on this site allowed a member of this online community to call us savages, without so much as a whisper of complaint from anyone on here, or admonishment from the editors.
Unfortunately after you made that insightful comment about our multidimensionality, you went on to slander every one of us with the stereotype that we are all live promiscuous lives. Surely, you understand that many of us live monogamous lives, just as pedestrian as any of you. And as society is less and less forcing us into the closet that once necessitated gay bars, gay people find love less and less in in that setting, thank God, and more and more in the same situations and manners that straight people do.
The “lifestyle” of homesxuality…i.e., romantic involvement with those of the same sex is forbidden by the Church…homosexual males and females are left with only “ONE” alternative…chastity…sodomy, cruising gay bars, gay web sites=looking for romance, is all FORBIDDEN!…putting yourself in the near occasion of sin, is very dangerous, even if you are not having no sexual involvement. Temptation is never sin…those who indulge in the perversion od sodomy are in a state of mortal sin!…the Church will never endorse or approve of same sex romance…EVER!
Dr. Robert Spitzer was an admitted “atheist”…he was also instrumental in getting the behavioral health community to “drop” the moniker that “homosexuality” was not abnormal, nor a mental disorder…his son was a homosexual and he stated that “he hoped he would seek change, because something wasn’t working”…he didn’t object to other men being “gay”!…when his son was found to be a homosexual, he couldn’t handle it…it was just to big a “narcissistic injury” for him to endure…
I have read the comments posted on this wonderful blog, the last few days,and must concur that Palo is right on! he is not only charitable, but is able to explain the fullness of this disorder in a very emapthic way, thank-you for your insight and desire to share. Good comments all around, but homosexuality is not in conformity to the scripture or the church’s teaching on faith and morals
Agreed. Furthermore, he cares enough about helping his fellow Catholics seek the light that he takes time to explain things which should be obvious as if he were talking to people who had never even heard the Word of the Lord before in their lives. His patience exceeds mine, and for the good of my own soul, not to mention that of others, I do try to find it. I know these people are truly afflicted and probably anguishing, and their statements reflect an obsession with the subject that is exhausting, but saving souls is worth the effort, and I take off my hat to anyone who can stay on target without losing their cool in trying to help these poor souls find redemption. It feels like a wasted effort to me, but I sincerely hope it is not.
I disagree Marshall. Among other things Paleobotanist was initially saying that homosexuality is a sin. It took jon’s rightful and persistent corrections to get Paleobotanist to get him to drop that falsehood. Paleobotanist has basically backtracked. Not very solid grounding on the teachings of the Church on this issue.
He never bactracked, you and Jon have. Palo said that same sex romance was gravely sinful, mortal sin in fact. Gay people have only one alternative, be celibate and chaste, heterosexual’s can have sex. The catechism is clear that this beahvior is disordered and vile, gay people have no choice but to remain celibate or wind up in perdition. Gay men who cruise gay bars and sex sites are also sinning, by putting themselves in the near occasion of sin. Palo is right
Never said that Dan, you tell more tall tales then your “doppleganger” buddy Jon…LOL!
According to the CDC, over 90% of HIV infections have been the direct result of “gay” men sodomizing each other, without using a condom. The scourge of this plague is a direct result and outgrowth of “gay” men practicing the vile and reprehensible act of sodomy, a sin so grave and disordered “it cry’s to heaven for vengeance”!
I don’t know why this is relevant, really. I mean 96% of flu victims are straight, as are about 96% of deaths due to flu. So I guess that means that straight people are doing something God doesn’t like.
-Besides which, in 2009, the last year cited by the CDC’s hiv dot gov site, 61% of new HIV infections in the US were the result of men who had sex with men.
-AIDS is caused by a virus, HIV, not by the acts that transmits it.
-If AIDS were somehow God’s penalty for being gay, then why did he wait until our generation to send it? Why has he infected more straight people with AIDS than gay people? Why is he allowing successful treatment of it?
-If God sends tragedy as vengeance against sin, then how do you explain the victims of tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes?
-Lesbians are underinfected with HIV, which by your logic, must be just fine morally.
-I’m not sure where you get your “data” showing that HIV infections are steadily rising. This is simply untrue. It’s basically flat, and at least some of the fluctuation up and down from year to year is impossible to know with certainty, since testing for HIV is optional and the rate of testing fluctuates from year to year. It is true that the number of people living with HIV is growing steadily. But this is because few people die of HIV anymore, thank God, so any new infections increase the total.
According to the CDC, HIV infection amongst “gay” men in America has steadily been rising! Gay men who “act out”, are the primary vector for this dreaded disease in our nation!
If the lovers of sodomy don’t listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not believe even if someone was raised from the dead.
Additionally, reading Peletot’s latest comments: in at least one post he persistently calls homosexuals “disordered.”
Folks, this is not the language of the Church. This is not how the Church speaks about those with same-sex attraction.
“Objectively disordered” describes the homosexual inclination, NOT the person, NOT even the behavior (acting out).
“Objectively disordered” means that the homosexual inclination does not lead to the goods which God has ordained for the sexual union: namely children and the loving union between a husband and a wife.
So, DEFINITELY NOT: The Church does not call homosexuals “disordered.”
Rather, the homosexual (if baptized) is a child of God, made in God’s image, endowed by God with dignity, thereby deserving your respect for he/she is your brother/sister in the faith.
If he/sh acts upon his/her homosexual inclination, then this act is sinful, a mortal sin. Such a person (if baptized) deserves your prayers for his/her conversion.
What Pelotot wants to say is that the homosexual inclination is a sin. This is false because this is not what the Church teaches. And this is worth correcting. Much is at stake here, namely the truth of what the Church teaches!
THIS THREAD IS NOW CLOSED. NO NEW COMMENTS ON THIS STORY WILL BE POSTED.
Furthermore, I have said that gay people are our brothers and sisters in Christ…they need our prayers…same sex marriage is a sin!…the Church opposes it…it is WRONG as is same sex ROMANCE and DATING!…gay persons are not sinning because they are oriented toward being gay… they are committing “grave sin”, when they act out “SEXUALLY” with a same sex partner!…as I and a number of people have said all along…at this point Jon is merely on this blog to argue with me…personally, because he is bitter, at my explanations…they hit to close to home maybe…furthermore, cruising gay websites looking for dates and romance is also GRAVELY sinful and DISORDERED!
EDITOR’S NOTE: This thread is now closed. No additional comments will be posted.