It was recently announced that a substantial number of Catholic parishes will be closing in Connecticut. This is just the latest in a national trend that is likely to affect the diocese where you live, especially in the north. I’d like to offer some rather quick thoughts and then ponder what I think is the root cause for our decline.
Bishops don’t close parishes, people do. While it may be juridically true that bishops formally certify or give recognition to the opening, closing, and merging of parishes, it is ultimately God’s people who create or withdraw the need for a parish. The hard truth is that Catholics are contracepting and aborting in large numbers, thus depleting our ranks. Further, in most urban areas of the northeast, barely 15% of Catholics attend Mass regularly. In comparison, during the first half of the 20th century, when many of the parishes being closed today were being built, nearly 85% of Catholics attended Mass regularly. It is unrealistic for Catholics to expect that parishes should not be closed in significant numbers when there is so little attendance and concomitant support.
There is shared responsibility. It is easy to be angry at bishops and priests when parishes must be closed. Years of poor catechesis, a lack of effective preaching, and poorly celebrated liturgies have taken their toll and the clergy bear the first responsibility in this. However, dissent and division among the faithful and a drifting from the practice of the faith are also big factors. Many priests who do preach firmly and insist on clear doctrine are made to pay dearly.
At the end of day, the clergy cannot take full responsibility for the problem, nor can they address it alone. Why? Because shepherds don’t have sheep, sheep have sheep. Evangelization cannot be just a problem for the rectory; it is ultimately a family problem. Parents and grandparents must do more to summon their children home and witness the power of the liturgy and sacraments to transform.
Many blame the liturgy for the low attendance. While the liturgy as commonly celebrated today can seem bland and uninspiring, and much modern Church music “banal” (as the Pope recently remarked), the proposed solutions are bewildering in number and even where implemented attract only small numbers. For example, some have cheered the reintroduction of the Traditional Latin Mass, a form of the Mass that I happen to love. However, I don’t know of a single diocese in this country in which the number of Catholics attending that form accounts for more than 1% of all Mass attendees. Thus, the problem seems deeper than the external forms.
The heart of the problem is an overall malaise. There is little urgency; few seem to feel the need for the faith, the Church, the sacraments, or the Word of God. In my opinion, a steady diet of universalism (the unbiblical notion that all or the vast majority of people will be saved, no matter what) inside the Church, and a steady diet of pluralism and relativism outside the Church have played the largest role in the problem. There’s no real problem seen, no hurry, no need for what we offer. At best we are just one product on the shelf of a boutique dedicated to the non-essential niceties that people dabble in if they have the time. The common view in our culture is that religion is a nice little way of accessorizing your life, but otherwise, who cares?
Given what I think is the root cause, how should we begin to stop the steady erosion of the practice of Catholic faith? I would agree with Dr. Ralph Martin that the first step must be to revive a more biblical vision of urgency regarding salvation. Just because many people—even among the clergy—say that there isn’t a problem doesn’t mean that there isn’t one.
Jesus was far more sober in assessing the situation. He devoted many parables and warnings to our need to attend to the salvation He offers. There are the sheep and the goats, those on the right and those on the left, the wise virgins and the foolish ones, those ready for the master’s return and those who are not, those who will hear, “Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world” and those who will hear, “Depart from me. I know you not.” Jesus noted that the road to damnation was wide and many were on it, and “only a few” were on the narrow road to salvation (Matt 7:13-14).
But just try to tell any of this to most people today and see what kind of response you get. My sense is that urgency is at an all-time low. Yet biblically, directly from Jesus Himself, it is clear that the likelihood of being saved is greatly reduced when one does not repent regularly and walk in the faith actively, including a heavy dose of Scripture and frequent reception of the sacraments.
Full article at Monsignor Charles Pope’s blog.
The Vatican 2 Council opened the door to liberalism and which was far more radical and destructive to the Roman Catholic Faith than when Luther and others instigated Protestant Reformation. The Council and the unchecked continuum of changes in its aftermath destroyed the faith from within. The leadership knew exactly what it was doing. Saint Pius the Xth warned against any changes to the Church. The leadership and liberation lovers defend the changes thinking it has all been good; however the contrary is true, parishes close, millions have lost the faith, the sacraments have changed, the Sacrifice of the Mass and its Latin prayers were changed to the Last Supper, where beautiful Mass prayers were either changed in intention, watered…
Vatican II wasn’t the cause. It’s liberalism that exploded in the 1960s which was the cause.
If we had the culture of the 1950s today in 2017, our parishes world be packed with people.
Steve – According to my parents who grew up in the 50’s things wer’n’ as perfect as they’re made out to be. Lots of adultery, priestly abuse was there but no one talked about it. materialism (Watch “Mad Men’) the divorce rate took off. Racism – One of my granddad’s older Black workers would pick him up to go to the jobsite but always refused grandma’s offer to come in for coffee – Afraid to be alone in the kitchen with a white woman. Mexican farm workers exploited and forced to live in inhuman conditions Lynchings in the South. Gays not being able to get jobs. Still a lot of Protestant anti-Catholicism. JFK having to explain himself to a meeting of Holey Roller ministers in Texas to become President. Need I go on?
I won’t comment about the sins of that time period since I’m not well versed in them. However, it was part of the culture back then that people attend church or synagogue weekly. It was an unspoken norm. This was my purpose for referencing the 1950s.
At least they knew when they sinned. Today people sin and call it progress, then insist we all accept their sin or be fired, sued and called haters. Diabolical disorientation indeed.
Kristin … Some I reffered to , racists like the KKK and those who discriminated against Catholics and gay people, not not only didn’t think they’ed sinned but thought they were doing God’s will.
Steve Seitz– We have had extreme liberals for centuries– especially, since the dawn of Modernism, in the late 19th century! Intellectuals who basically reject good, solid, so-called “conservative,” traditional grounding and discipline, in various fields. Fr. John Courtney Murray, a liberal Jesuit, was a key Vatican II figure, who began writing about his ideas, a few decade prior to Vatican II. Vatican II is a shock, simply because it rejects basic Church teachings, such as Christ’s salvation coming from the Church– and favors instead, personal freedoms and ecumenism, as well as ecumenism in our liturgy– very destructive!
I do agree, however, with the Jesuit, Fr. John Courtney Murray, with “Dignitatis Humanae,” which he was largely responsible for, at Vatican II, in which he stated that every man (and woman) should be free to choose their own religious beliefs, and the State cannot impose one religion, even if those governing are Catholics, and believe our Church is correct. What is missing is simply: 1. Christian tolerance, goodwill, and respect towards non-believers 2. All Catholics have a responsibility to Christ, and MUST ABIDE by Church teaching! 3. Our Catholic Mass is NOT a political, ecumenical “toy!”
Many of the people I have talked to about their exit from the Catholic Church have mentioned the following: the scandals involving priests, nuns and religious, the teachings of the Church regarding birth control, human sexuality and divorce, and a Church that seems stuck in the Middle Ages. The TLM is not bringing large numbers of people back to the Church.
How can the TLM bring large numbers back to the church when it is still seemingly surpressed? (Sure, any priest can offer it, but just try if your pastor has other ideas and you don’t want to be sent to The Parish at the Back of Beyond.)
George, The holy Sacrament of Marriage is a means of SANCTIFYING GRACE for the husband and wife to follow Christ obediently, lovingly, lifelong, and so become holy, and prepared for Heaven, beyond this life! There is a big difference, between devout Catholics, and those who don’t care– and who tragically ABUSE the holy Sacrament of Matrimony, and believe in sexual sins, birth control, abortion, ad divorce. Self-control (and perhaps to learn Natural Family Planning)– is very important, in the Sacrament of Marriage! The virtue of self-control, makes you a better, more Christ-like person, closer to God!
We seem to be moving toward a Church desired by Pope Benedict XVI: small but devout.
” Years of poor catechesis, a lack of effective preaching, and poorly celebrated liturgies have taken their toll and the clergy bear the first responsibility in this. However, dissent and division among the faithful and a drifting from the practice of the faith are also big factors. Many priests who do preach firmly and insist on clear doctrine are made to pay dearly.” Well said Father, the Church will become smaller but holier and purer false Catholics will finally leave as they should and remnant will rebuild the Church from the ruins
I find the first paragraph of this post totally vague and almost meaningless. Who specifically announced the closings; not the clear as mud ‘it was announced . . . ‘ How many parishes are closing? How many are there in the State? When? I recognize full details may not have been decided. If so, say so. Just the facts, Monsignor, not generalities. I believe clear facts better support one’s argument.
I try to set the agenda for my parishioners to put their faith in Jesus, to look to him all day long to see who He is bringing into their lives, what situations, he presents, how they allow Him to work through them, and how they stand in His way. For much of the church it appears we are responding to the secular leaders values regarding a socialism agenda which is presented as social justice. Personal holiness will include outreach, but we clergy have to speak of Jesus, salvation, faith, worship since love of God is the greatest commandment, and then love of neighbor like it. The church should be guiding those in the secular world, not taking cues from them. If not, people will look elsewhere.
Everything’s fine in the Church, nothing to see, move along, move along.
I think the worst problems are that the Vatican has become too worldly, and has refused to run a good Catholic Catechism program, worldwide, and has decided, since Vatican II, not to run the Church correctly– abdicating all responsibility for belief in and adherence to Church doctrines– and has refused to support true, orthodox Catholic clergy and lay faithful! The problems with the new Mass are also gigantic!! Every Catholic needs good religious training, from childhood, an excellent and holy Mass, and on-going guidance in the daily practice of our Catholic Faith and Morals! Those who dissent and refuse to repent, should be excommunicated!
Doug: surveys of Catholics in the pews find that the majority support the changes wrought by the Vatican II Council. Again, those leaving the Church do so for reasons other than changes in the liturgy. A Catholic pastor I know held a listening session with a small group of non-attending parishioners.
The pastor heard complaints primarily linked to teachings of the Church about marriage/divorce, negative experiences with priests and religious, and the scandals. Most of these folks viewed Pope Francis positively.
It seems every other week one of the cable channels or a national news magazine has a new report questioning the historicity of the Gospels or the divinity of Jesus. People, including Catholics, read/hear this stuff and begin to think the Catholic faith does not matter any more. The Church needs to do a bettter job responding to all of these stories/programs.
.The old bromide that doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is insanity has proven accurate for many years and in almost all circumstances. Why do people choose a church? We know why. The data is out there. First is programs for the kids. Yup, summer camp, vacation Bible school, teen programs, etc.. Second, music that they can relate to. Third the quality of preaching. Let’s concentrate on the preaching for a minute. On Sunday morning, listen to the great preachers on television. What are they doing? Teaching the Bible, verse by verse with people taking notes. You might also note that they fill a church of thousands of people.
Hey Bob One, just to remind you – if the opportunity to receive Our Lord Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity is not reason enough to bring people to Mass then nothing will. The Church’s mission is not to entertain or babysit.
Kristin your point when right over Bob One’s head, he thinks the Church and mass is nothing more than a social gathering, like all liberals its all about them. Not once did he even state what you did, that Faithfully attending mass is the means to salvation. I honestly believe that liberals like Bob One do not believe that nor think it matters.
Kristin, your correct, but, …. Before people believe that Communion is the best reason to go to Mass, they need to know that that is the case. We need to bring them into the Church as they are, then educate them, nourish their faith, get them to believe, etc. Until we do that they don’t know of a reason to come. We need to evangelize.
Bob One, having read many of your posts, if you were trying to evangelize me, I would ask which Protestant community you belong to. To live a truly Catholic life IS to evangelize, AND you must be willing to explain and defend the Faith as you will certainly be challenged about your counter cultural lifestyle.
It is really disappointing to me that while what Kristin ssays regarding the Eucharist is true, what Bob One says is also true. The fact is that it has always taken PEOPLE, DISCIPLES, APOSTLES, to bring Good News to people before they are brought into the catechumenate, before they were ever admitted to even witness the full Mass. The Mass of the Catechumens (also known as the Liturgy of the Word), has long proceeded even being admitted to the mass of the Eucharist. Both of you are right, and by reclaiming our heritage…before the “TLM”, we can rediscover the heritage of evangelization by which we bring people to Faith.
One Sunday, after early Mass, go to the local Lutheran, Anglican, Baptist, Presbyterian or Methodist church. What are they teaching and how. The best Catholic preachers I know spend fifteen to twenty minutes preparing for a Sunday Sermon. Most Protestant preachers consider that their main work of the week, writing, practicing, roll-playing it, editing it, etc.. Then listen to the music. Everyone sings and generally pretty loud. They pray twice. Does you parish have children’s sermons, children’s choirs, etc. Do you have a music director with a college degree in music who knows church music? Do you use something other than the OCP music books? We know how to “do” church, we just refuse to do it.
Sorry Bob One more imitating the Protestants will not save the Church… I say let this process happen, purge the Church of the unfaithful and lukewarm, and Faithful remnant will rebuild it
Bob One– many Americans of today, have been led around naively by the nose, to teen rebellion, rock music, dope, sexual sins, and beyond— straight into the jaws of the extremely immoral liberals, who are trying to abolish all religion, and all Christian morality, in America! Prior to the 1960s, about maybe 80% of Americans all belonged to a church (or synagogue), and attended regularly, with strong tithing, too! As both the Catholic and mainline Protestant churches are now nearly destroyed by godless liberalism and immorality, people leave, seeking Christ’s honest, Biblical Truth, in evangelical Protestant mega-churches!
Thousands have left the mainline Protestant churches, due to crackpot, immoral, corrupt liberal agendas. A HUGE factor, is people need support, when they marry and raise families! No one wants weird, immoral, “gay” priests or ministers, involved with their marriages and children! No one who is Catholic, wants weird, immoral anti-Catholic teaching, at Mass, or in the Catholic schools! And deep down, people don’t care that much for the modern, banal Mass of Vatican II. It does not evoke deep faith, reverence, piety, love, and respect for God, nor contemplation of heavenly mysteries– as the old Latin Mass once did.
There are lots and lots of liberals who do not accept Christian morality, in both Catholic and mainline Protestant churches– however, the overall numbers of church-goers, has shrunk considerably, and there have been numerous Catholic and Protestant church closures, nationwide. There have been dire predictions, that many well-known Protestant mainline denominations (such as the Episcopal church, as well as more liberal branches of the Lutherans, Presbyterians, and Methodists, etc.) may not survive very long. Women in the Protestant ministry, is also a very controversial issue.
Poor Rev. Robert Schuller, a traditional Protestant minister, of a branch of Presbyterians– the Reformed Church of America– once led a packed congregation of three thousand worshipers, in his Crystal Cathedral, plus multitudes of listeners nearby, and a TV viewing audience of 20 million! But his denomination decided to accept corrupt liberal ideas, such as gay “marriage,” and etc– and so, Schuller’s Crystal Cathedral went bankrupt, as thousands left his ministry! Our Church bought his cathedral, ad Schuller’s heirs bought a closed, local small Catholic church, for their services!
I do not think the poor, late Rev. Robert Schuller agreed with the decisions of his denomination, when they became corrupt and liberal. I have read that many Protestant youth ministers also are forced to leave mainline denominations, due to poor decisions of their mainline churches, to accept and support immorality. In his later years, Archbishop Sheen was invited several times, to speak at Rev. Schuller’s Crystal Cathedral, and was well-received there. It will take lots of prayer, to oneday see Christians turn away from corrupt, anti-Christian liberalism and sin, and return to the true Christ!
Just how important is the salvation of your soul? Just focus on that and everything else pales in importance. Can’t hear a good sermon? Read a good sound book from a reliable Catholic publisher like Ignatius Press. Listen to CDs from people like Lighthouse Catholic, faithful to the magisterium.
“Lord who can be saved?” This time is like the evil times of Luther or the Borgias. We have a failed Church leadership from top to bottom. It allows clerical Church heretical dissenters to remain it refuses to address the evil sinfulness of this world though its purpose is to bring salvation and save us from sin. We look like damn fools and hypocrites when someone like Joe Biden (promoted abortion for 30 years and same sex marriage) is then given a “High Catholic Award” for furthering “Catholicism” then he marries two men. Where were the clerics and Catholics defending the faith when this total blasphemy occurred? Really, who would want to join the Church of hypocrites and who is it saving? Still a Catholic.
What are we to do? We have lots of churches and other real estate. What we don’t have is enough priests. My parish prays for vocations every Sunday. So far the Holy Spirit has said “no” or maybe “not yet”. Maybe She (I think of the Holy Spirit as feminin, but you don’t have to) is subtly guiding us and our bishops to think a little outside the box. Married men becoming priests (not just a few special cases)? Allowing ordained priests to marry? Making better use of the renewed Diaconate? Women deacons? Allowing widowed deacons to remarry if they meet their second true love? And finally ……Drum roll ….women priests? Just a thought
..the ultimate step to Protestant ecclesiastical death. The zeitgeist grins and beckons. Komm, Susser Todt.
A heretical thought.
Sawyer .. There were six thoughts in my post. Do t you think they are all heretical or just the one about women priests?
“…Drum roll ….women priests? Just a thought” Perish it but as a liberal it is your never ending goal to feminize the Church even more than it already is. No I say let this process filter out, the Church will be purged of liberals you can start a false Church where sin does not exist, and all feel good about themselves.
If that’s what you are looking for in a Church, you can always find another one. There is no point in being a member of a Church that you don’t believe in.
Women priestess already ruled out. Yea! Vocations come at the altar. I won’t allow my young man on the altar as long as girls are up there. My young man needs to be a man and a servant so he can lead. By the way, I’m a woman.
C&H: absolutely agree with you. We can save the Catholic Church. Those currently leading the Church have kowtowed to the conservatives (consider all of the outreach to the small SSPX schismatic group) while neglecting the more moderate and liberal groups in the Church. Courageous change will bring lots of people back!
Steve, You and those like you must be blind if you do not see the direct connection between the Vatican II Council and the implosion of the Church. It is just not a coincidence, it is the consequence. Blindness is caused by a lack of sanctifying grace due to sin.
C&H, Sin has always existed; temptation has always existed; but that doesn’t mean the RCC was corrupted in the 1950s. Unfortunately, liberals were in the hierarchy even during Pope St. Pius the Xth’s reign! The devil tempted our Lord, and the devil has fought to destroy souls and Holy Mother the Church since it began.
George, The Church is not a democracy or popularity contest, so their opinions are merely an indication of naivety. Those modern members who grew up as…
Have you read the documents? If so, what exactly is it in the documents that caused the problem? I ask because I haven’t found it.
But there was a cultural explosion that occurred around the same time as the Council. This is the true cause of our problems.
If you’re correct, you need to cite the council documents that caused this great upheaval.
George, Any modern members born after 1965 haven’t much of a clue to what the Roman Catholic Church was before their existence. They can’t relate to it as it is foreign to them and they’re comfortable with the New Order. Only a few (less than 50 years old) have I witnessed were led through the grace of God to discover the RCC/faith and 7 Holy Sacraments of our grand parents and converted to the true RCC. National Surveys like Pew showed 2/3rds of modern catholics don’t believe in transubstantiation. Does that mean to you transubstantiation doesn’t exist? Only 1/4th attend weekend worship services regularly! Novus Ordo Parishes are closing worldwide on account of shortage of priests, sisters, and laity. Sinfulness is rampant…
Bob One, It is amazing with your liberal protestant mind that you think the answer to the modern Church troubles is to turn to the protestant denominations for corrective actions. You couldn’t be more wrong as they are disintegrating even faster. Following your advise the modern Church would be but ashes even quicker.
George, RCC Parishes practicing tradition are doing the opposite, they are actually growing in number and size mainly from older Catholics who have missed and found the RCC of their youth. Unfortunately few like Benedict XVIth have had an open mind and respect for them; but we see he has been replaced!
Doug, forgive me if I misled you about my thinking. I don’t want us to become Protestant. What I was trying to communicate is this: 1)one of the biggest “draws” to any church is the quality of the sermons/preaching, 2) Catholic preaching is know to be rather bland, 3) Protestants put a lot more effort into their sermons and they tend to be very directly related to the teachings in the Bible, and 4)perhaps our Pastors could learn from them how to give Bible centered sermons that are well written and well delivered. Nothing in that is liberal or conservative, left or right. Just a call for more quality.
Bob …. In my admittedly limited experience our priests do pretty well. Our former pastor would tie the readings and the Gospel on how we should live our lives in relation to each other. He was big on forgiveness and taught many of of us to REALLY forgive “those who trespass against us.” The current pastor has a special gift preaching at the school masses. Our retired priest who says the TLM gives seriously intelectual homilies. I once joked to him that I felt guilty not taking notes so he now e-mails me copies every week. Yes,Fr. Luck-of-the-draw is sometimes a dud. I actually heard a priest preach “The USCCB can’t say this but people with AIDS are being punished by God.”
Bob One … Continuing .. As for other faiths, the young rabbi at the synagogue I cater for gives sermons that the young adults in his congregation are really drawn to. I sometimes went to Episcopalian services with my late girlfriend Helen and I’ll never forget her priest saying that the key to salvation was to keep asking “Not what Sanford or Yale of Hewlett-Packard want of thee, but what does God want of thee.” All in all, however, the best preachers I’ve ever heard are Black Baptists!
Linda Marie, Great example of Rev. Schuller and no different on how the liberals destroyed his denomination!
C&H, You can sugar coat your twisted claims and opinions all you want and deceive others, but God you cannot deceive! He is watching what the devil is doing. The devil was so bold he tempted Jesus Himself!
Harold, The modern hierarchy is not kowtowing to those practicing tradition, they are trying to assimilate them to accept modern changes, and won’t quit until the SSPX has given in and converted.
Bob One, Go to a protestant churches like the Lutherans and you may come out with your opinion: ‘My how the Lutherans have evolved to being Catholic!’ When in reality, the opposite is true.
Ski Ven, I agree why should modernists…
Steve, If we had love for God and appreciation for Him in our RCC Parishes, they would be packed full. With love for God, people would obey, revere, respect, honor, and worship God. Culture of times past is not the cause. Documents — As a good liberal I doubt that you know their names. Include also many of the liberal post Vatican 2 encyclicals. Don’t be lazy, dig them up and read them. Many of the documents are so ill-defined, they can have multiple interpretations, which then helped opened the flood doors to further liberalism over the past 5 decades.
Bob One, The sermon is unnecessary and miniscule in value compared to the infinite value of the Holy Sacrifice of the Latin Mass! It is the Mass that parishioners should lock onto…
I guess the term liberal and conservative are relative, but no one who knows me would ever call me a liberal, either religiously or secularly. With that said, I’m more liberal than SSPX.
Regarding VII, I’ve read most of the documents. I’ve found the VII documents to be fairly conservative. But unlike most prior councils, the documents are quite long. Therefore, like the Bible, phrases can’t be cherry-picked but must be read in context. I’m assuming that your issue is with cherry-picked phrases.
In regard to your challenge about the name of any post VII encyclicals, how about Humanae Vitae. Is this one of the ones that’s too liberal for you?
I forgot to ask, could you please cite the part(s) of the conciliar documents that caused all the devastation in the Church?
Doug, the Mass has several parts, starting with the Liturgy of the Word, always has. Opening prayers, readings from the Old Testament, Psalms, New Testament, Gospel, and Homily. The Homily explains the readings and how to apply to our daily lives. The second is the Liturgy of the Eucharist, always has been. Point is, that the Homily/Sermon is not a minuscule part of the Mass. It is very important. Then there is this: if a person doesn’t know our faith or what the Mass is, the sermon is a good point to attract people if well done. In today’s world, young people especially don’t know about the Church, its teachings, etc. They are strangers to our ways. We need to attract them. Bad sermons turn them off and we lose them.
Bob One, it is true, that a priest should give a good sermon, and teach the people points of the Catholic Faith well. Since Vatican II, many priests do not do that, unfortunately! But the Mass is not based on the priest’s sermon, at all! The homily is only one part of the Mass! The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is about Christ’s Sacrifice for us– and to bring Holy Communion to the Catholic Faithful, from Heaven! A Catholic really needs excellent religious instruction, to understand the Mass, to be properly prepared for Holy Communion, and to practice the Faith well! One cannot compare Catholicism to the Protestant denominations!
P.S. Today’s young people are not old enough to understand nor appreciate mature subjects, such as religion. They live in a terribly degraded, immoral, corrupt, ignorant, illiterate, diabolically-influenced subculture, of today’s liberal-hijacked country!! It is best, for kids to grow up in a good Catholic home, with good parents who practice their Faith well, and send their children to good Catholic schools. Many of today’s youths, as they mature, search for mature answers to their religious questions— and thousands join our Church each year, at the Easter Vigil! It is really Christ Who seeks them!
Harold ” Courageous change will bring lots of people back!” nothing courageous about supporting protestant nonsense. .. you want to bring people back Teach the Cold Hard Truths of the Faith…..Schism is the only real answer let you liberals have your protestant like sect, we will keep the One True Faith…
Steve, Do you honestly think the documents would blatantly read and promote heretical changes to RCC doctrine? Of course not; otherwise faithful Roman Catholics would get wind of it and protest. No, ill-defined documents opened the door to liberal interpretations and ensuing change. It’s similar to what the Commucrats like Obama, Clinton, Schumer, Reed, Pelosi and other extreme-left-wing politicians were doing to destroy our democratic republic capitalist way of government and life; leading not just toward socialism as they preached to be better like Europe and it’s Union, but more toward a dominate/one-party socialist system envisioned more gentle than Communist China and the former USSR. They believe in slowly boiling the frog…
I apologize for not seeing this post earlier.
The Second Vatican Council was not the result of a conspiracy. If you wish to talk about conspiracies after the Council, be my guest. But the final documents of the Second Vatican Council were not the product of a secret conspiracy. Not only is this wrong, but it speaks against the Holy Spirit which guided the Council.
BTW, did you use to post under another name?
What is wrong is your bogus charge that Doug is speaking against the Holy Ghost.
Regarding my claim, I doubt that we’ll ever agree on this point. The reason is because I see the action of the Church’s 21 ecumenical councils as involving and being safeguarded by the Holy Spirit. As I recall, you do not.
I wouldn’t call that disagreement bogus.
So, all the mutual anathemas hurled at each side at Chalcedon for those who professed different views of the natures of Christ, all those were guided by the Holy Spirit? All of them are in hell–because they said so at each other? Everything a council proclaims is infallible and divinely inspired?
I withdrew my comment that Doug’s conspiracy allegation spoke against the action of the Holy Spirit. (please refer to my reply to Ann Malley for more detail). But ecumenical councils do involve and are safeguarded from error by the Holy Spirit. But this statement only pertains to the highest level documents at a council and do not pertain [at least not to the same degree] to lower level documents.
Your query regarding Hell has me a bit puzzled. If you’re thinking that I said that Doug had uttered a blasphemy, this was not my meaning. Does this answer your questions?
I may have to agree with you about my statement concerning Doug’s allegation of conspiracy theories and the Holy Spirit.
If it were true that conspiratorial content made it’s way into the major conciliar documents, the final content would still be truth regardless of the flawed human means that were used.
I offer my apology to Doug.
When a liturgy (and the rites) that defects from the tradition of the true Catholic Mass is instituted, the effects of the deficiency in grace are at first, gradually, and then over time, rapidly accelerating in a resulting increase in vice, decrease in virtue, loss of faith and purpose. Yes, the NO, when conducted reverently, mediates grace—but is gravely flawed compared to the true Mass.
The 1969 liturgy and accompanying rites, the result of a rogue Consilium’s work well over 3 years after the Council, and promulgated by duping Paul VI into “following the Council Fathers’ wishes”, will continue its harvest of disaster and collapse.
And it was all predicted very exactly and truthfully by Card. Ottaviani.
During the last ten years, the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter, an all-Latin Mass international group of priests– has ordained 114 men to the priesthood! Very good! Wish they would establish a church in the San Francisco Bay Area! Their parishes are always thriving, with lots of young families and children, with excellent Catholic catechism training, Catholic schools or else Catholic homeschool groups, summer camps for kids, children’s and adult choirs, and other related parish activities. They have a Confraternity, too, which prays for vocations. You can find it online, at http://www.fssp.com!
Apology accepted Steve. I would never speak against the Holy Ghost, but I will speak against men who like Luther changed the faith and by their fruits (we shall know them) have caused millions of the once faithful to leave their Novus Ordo Catholic Church and endanger their souls. Face it Steve and all, statistics show only about 25% claim to go to weekend services anymore. Where are the other 75%? Why don’t we see them in the Novus Ordo Churches? Then 67% don’t believe in transubstantiation, but like the protestants the Eucharist is merely a symbol, not the actual Divine Species. These deceivers causing these effects should be excommunicated just like Luther and other Protestant Reformers like him since the 1500s. The Novus Ordo…