The following comes from a September 21 Chiesa article by Sandro Magister:
Pope Francis received in audience a few days ago the Brazilian cardinal Cláudio Hummes, accompanied by the archbishop of Natal, Jaime Vieira Rocha.
Hummes, 82, former archbishop of São Paulo and prefect of the Vatican congregation for the clergy, is today the president both of the commission for the Amazon of the episcopal conference of Brazil and of the Pan-Amazonian Network that joins together 25 cardinals and bishops of the surrounding countryside, in addition to indigenous representatives of different local ethnicities.
And in this capacity he supports, among others, the proposal to make up for the scarcity of celibate priests in immense areas like the Amazon by also conferring sacred ordination upon “viri probati,” meaning men of proven virtue, married.
The news of the audience therefore gave the idea that Pope Francis had discussed this very question with Hummes, and in particular an “ad hoc” synod of the 38 dioceses of the Amazon, which is effectively in an advanced phase of preparation.
Not only that. There is renewed vigor behind the rumor that Jorge Mario Bergoglio wants to assign to the next worldwide synod of bishops, scheduled for 2018, precisely the question of ordained ministers, bishops, priests, deacons, including the ordination of married men.
The main argument brought forth in support of the ordination of married men is “the growing difficulty for a bishop of providing for the care of souls in his territory with a sufficient number of ministers of the Gospel and of the Eucharist”
It must be said, however, that such a situation is by no means exclusive to the present day. It has characterized the life of the Church in various centuries and in the most diverse areas.
The scarcity of priests has not always led to harm for the “care of souls.” On the contrary, in some cases it has even coincided with a blossoming of Christian life. Without anyone getting the idea to ordain married men.
Why doesn’t the Vatican seek the truth, prayerfully, and ask God the question– “Why is there a priest shortage, and what do You want Your Church to do about it?” I think the Apostles and early Church Fathers spent days in prayer, asking God’s help and wisdom, before making important decisions! If the Church decides on a married priesthood– then, I will not attend any Mass, nor receive any Sacraments, from these priests– nor from any who are dating. Only from those who are leading a life vowed to God, of celibacy! That is what I believe! I may have to restrict my church attendance, to churches with devout traditional religious orders, of celibate-only priests. Everyone else can do as they wish!
See DailyCatholic.org for the true Catholic Faith with no compromises to the Modernist Vatican 2 apostasy that has happened in the Church over the past 58 years and find out where there are true priests and bishops providing the true Sacraments untainted by all the heretical changes.
Michael Cain– Thanks! I will go to this website, and see what it has to offer! Sounds great!
Linda maria…Now will receive the sacraments from a married priest who converted from the Anglicans?
It is long overdue for the married priesthood to be introduced (reintroduced?) to our Latin Rite. Linda Maria forgets that the Holy Catholic Church, in its Eastern Rites, have always had a married secular clergy. The simple fact is that the people of God have a right to the sacraments, – and our Church has an obligation to supply those sacraments. A married Catholic secular priesthood would go far in helping our Church fulfill that obligation. It is my opinion that that a married secular clergy would be benefit the people of God (the Church) and also reinvigorate our religious orders.
C&H and Hugh O’Regan— I do not believe as you do, but that’s fine! The Eastern Rite and Anglican churches are different than ours, in their traditions and some beliefs. They also view and practice the Sacraments differently. I do not think the modern world understands nor appreciates holiness, sanctity, and the realms of God! Especially the understanding of chastity and vows of being married to God as a celibate, is nearly lost! How tragic, to seek a married priesthood, simply because of a priest shortage– where are the young Catholic men, well-instructed and practicing their Faith well, from childhood, eager to give their lives completely to Christ?? Continued…
Continued… Christ and His Apostles left all for God— and they practiced celibacy. In our Church, before the Council, many young Catholic boys, prior to Vatican II, prayed for a priestly vocation, from an early age! Many started out, as altar boys and were greatly impressed, by the priesthood! Our own Latin Rite Church and beautiful traditions, are now nearly obliterated, destroyed sadly, since the Council! Eastern Rite churches are strongly rooted in their own religious cultural traditions. The Anglican Ordinariate is urged to maintain their own traditions. But our own Latin Rite Church has been nearly desstroyed!
It’s long overdue for the many Hugh O’Regan’s within the Church to be reminded/re-introduced to their many other slickly motivated progressive friend’s remedies and suggestions for the deliberately planned obsolescence of faithful celibate Catholic priests.
1. NEVER discipline publicly known wolves in sheep’s clothing.
2. NEVER stop or discipline dissenters who freely teach/speak at Catholic universities, churches, parish schools and large “g-a-t-h-e-r-i-n-g-s”
3. NEVER admit that it was a failure to not uphold “all” Church teaching as well as discipline. NEXT when the wolves think that they are in total charge, then let’s throw celibacy out the window and then PARTY ON with married priests.
LOVE all your posts, Catherine!
When I was young, there were a great many vocations to the priesthood! Almost every Catholic boy thought of becoming a priest, at some point in his life! The priesthood was very impressive– the highest vocation on earth! Seminaries were full, and so were rectories of diocesan priests, and houses of religious orders! Contemplative monasteries were also full. Catholic churches used to be open 24/7, and were viewed as very holy! You always had to abide by the dress code, and be very quiet and respectful, when you entered the church! We made many Visits to the Blessed Sacrament, and could go at any time, to light a candle, spend time in prayer, or say a Rosary for a loved one! Continued…
Continued… Life was much nicer, quieter, and slower, long ago, and people had time for the practice of religion– it was very important! Rules were very strict- but people respected the Church! I recall always wearing a dress and heels, daily, which was the lovely custom for women– and carrying my Rosary and a mantilla in my purse, just in case I and perhaps friends and relatives, wanted to drop by a local church, for religious devotions, or else attend daily Mass! At any time of the day or night, one could ring the bell at the rectory, and call for a priest– in case of a serious accident, illness, or death! The Last Rites were so important! Continued…
Continued… It was wonderful in those days, and very comforting, to know you could always get a priest, (and had better get one, too!) — in case of dire emergencies! Young boys used to say many Rosaries, for priestly vocations, hoping God would say, “Yes!” Some gifted young boys prayed for the grace to give their ALL to God, as a martyr for Christ– or to be a Saint! Or BOTH!! To be a good, practicing lay Catholic, was similar to joining a religious order– it was very serious! You belong to Christ, you are taking Christ’s Sacraments, which are VERY HOLY! You are NOT a child of the “fallen world!” Catholics of today, have forgotten all of that, sadly!
P.S. The graces of a chaste life dedicated completely to God, as a HOLY PRIEST — are extraordinary, for those who desire to embrace it! When very young, I recall being deeply impressed especially, when a priest, dressed in his black cassock, showed us his gold wedding band, explaining that he was “married to God,” and that he loved his life! He also showed us his breviary– priests used to be required to pray it daily (in Latin)! A Catholic priest once was much-respected, everywhere! Celibacy was an absolute, looked up to and revered by all, Catholics and non-Catholics alike!
I think that a true priestly vocation, is of young men who have the sincere desire, in their hearts, to give their ALL to God, and this desire was placed in their hearts, by God Himself! If a young man says he is interested a little bit in the priesthood– but his heart is really with his wife and children, as a married man, and in his paid, professional work — then, he is NOT truly called to be a priest! I think that Vatican II seriously RUINED the Catholic priesthood– perhaps permanently, unless the severe damage can be undone, by the grace of God! A priestly vocation is NOT a worldly thing, and not subject to worldly whims, beliefs, circumstances, fads, and fashions— it belongs only to God! FOREVER!!
Before the Council, many young Catholic boys, of only ages 12-13, knew their Catechism and their Faith and Morals far better, than most great big, well-educated prelates, of today! In those days, many went to Minor Seminary, if they aspired to the priesthood. Then they had just five years of seminary training afterwards, at a major seminary, and were ordained at age 23. I recall several excellent and well-liked parish priests, immigrants from Ireland and other countries, warning me and others, that any extra “degrees” would not necessarily make a good priest. Sadly, these priests now are all in their graves!
With the entrance of Married Episcopal Priests in to Full Communion to the Church has come many benefits, and from my experience of meeting and learning from such fine Men and their Wives I support this.
In an era when Some Seminaries get known as “Pink Palaces” for their tolerance of homosex perversions, a healthy dose of Normal Heterosexual Marriage is invigorating and may well lead to an increase in ordinations – when Men may choose Celibacy or Normal Marriage and still Serve God and the Faithful – instead of the Ephebophile Infiltration that has wracked so much harm to the Church and its Adolescent Boys.
Mike Mcd, Support this? Say it isn’t so? Most of the (real) priest I know do not WANT a married vocation. They can hardly keep up with their churches & themselves much less a family. And that suits them. This sounds insane & not THE answer to the pink palaces you mentioned. (That’s a whole other issue.) What has happened to embracing the graces of a chaste life? It has fallen by the wayside. Never discussed much less encouraged by family or parish life. Sad to look to this as THE answer when we all know the traditional seminaries have many, many vocations. Back to basics is the better path. God help us. Praying
“What has happened to embracing the graces of a chaste life?”
That’s right, Linda Maria and From the Pew, you keep the Faith. If Rome wanted too, they could flood seminaries with the abundance of new candidates from the overcrowded Traditional Orders. Rome could immediately regularize the SSPX. Something’s not right when Catholics fall into the trap or set the trap of getting others to believe that heterosexuals, married or unmarried are incapable of ignoring Church teaching or watering it down too. The issue is Fidelity. If you can’t even be faithful to God, then you can be unfaithful to a wife.
Instead, “Rome” decided to destroy an outstandingly successful—too successful—traditional order, as one of the 1st acts of the present pontificate: the virtual suppression of the Franciscan Friars of [Mary] Immaculate.
One should not be traditional AND too successful in the Novus Ordo.
If Francis is not the anti-Christ, he is, at least, a reasonable facsimile.
The physical Church is dead, keep her dear in your hearts…
It is VERY SCARY– to think of seeing one of our priests walking out on the beach, on a Saturday afternoon, with a Catholic parish girl in a bathing suit (bikini?) — or in some San Francisco restaurant, (or other place, far worse!) dating a girl– perhaps not a chaste, modest, good, traditional Catholic girl– but a modern, brazen, liberal “Cafeteria Catholic” parish girl– and God help me, for what I think, of the rest of their Saturday evening! Come Sunday morning– I WILL NOT BE IN CHURCH!! SORRY!!
Linda Maria…I agree with you that if priests could marry, dating might get awkward. Middle aged Catholic women, such as myself, are notorius for being matchmakers. And my mother! I can hear her now! “I met a very nice Catholic girl at my conference. I can’t wait to introduce her to Father!” We needent worry however. As I understand it all of the proposals to make celibacy optional provide that a married man can become a priest but a priest won’t be able to get married.
C&H, our Church has already become extremely crass, worldly, “trendy,” liberal, since Vatican II!! So sad, if we now have priests running around, chasing parish girls! Plus, the West no longer has any Catholic religious cultures left, in any country! The Eastern Catholic churches are deeply rooted in ancient religious cultures— Byzantine, Maronite, Ruthenian, Ukranian, etc. When a young lady marries a young man studying to be an Eastern Rite priest– she knows she will have a strong role, lifelong helping her husband in parish work, daily– plus, raising a family, in a strong, religious home!
C&H, maybe someday, a seminarian at St. Patrick’s Seminary, will be the first to marry– and perhaps he will marry one of Rep. Nancy Pelosi’s five “Catholic” daughters, at St. Mary’s Cathedral! Maybe they will “live together” first, and use birth control– and have an abortion, too! Then, the poor Archbishop will groan and cry, in pain! Nancy used to be a “Catholic Mom” for her five daughters, when they attended Convent of the Sacred Heart School! A tragically-corrupted, formerly-Catholic school! Big mess!
I think in the Eastern Rite Catholic churches, a priest must marry BEFORE ordination— or else, remain celibate. Bishops must be celibate, too. Our Catholic (Latin Rite) beliefs and practices regarding the Eucharist, are a bit different, (though similar) from the Anglican traditions and beliefs. I am not sure as to how seriously the Anglicans Ordinariate views the Sacraments– perhaps the same beliefs, but with their own traditions.. Do Anglicans in union with Rome, have the reserved Blessed Sacrament, and do they genuflect– and do they have Eucharistic Adoration? How important is the Eucharist to them? And what doe this mean, in the practice of their priesthood — and ours, of the Latin Rite??
Regarding married Anglican Ordinariate priests- I know nothing about them! However, I do know a little about Episcopal/Anglican ministers/priests, prior to the 1960’s! They were VERY PROTESTANT!! They did not consider saying their daily Mass to be the central focus of their priestly vocation, as our priests do! They had very little or no practice of the Sacrament of Confession (only a few High Church Anglicans!) And they did not, overall, view the Sacraments as quite so important, carrying Christ’s Sanctifying Grace to parishioners, the way Catholics do! There was room for debate, as to the true nature of the Sacraments, including Holy Communion! A different kind of priesthood/ministry!
Regarding Eastern Rite Catholic married priests– they seem to have a deep and sincere practice of their Faith, but it always seemed to me, that their religious practice was firmly rooted in their ethnic backgrounds! The married priests and their wives and families, and all of their parishioners– were all living a total Christian life, with very ancient ethnic cultural roots! Very strong religious practice! In the West– we do not have the strong Christian culture, where our religion and culture are all one way of life! Again– a very different practice of religion, from our Latin Rite Church!
Well stated, Linda Maria! You absolutely HIT the nail on the head! WHAT in the world will be taught to these married priests? The Diocese of Orange, Ca. has NEVER retracted. never disciplined, or never responded to inquiries regarding a heretic priest who taught diaconate candidates the false teaching that belief in the Real Presence was tantamount to cannibalism. The gentleman who respectfully questioned the teacher privately after class was telephoned the following day by another priest and told “DON’T come back. continued…..
Not surprising, the priest who told the candidate not to come back was the previous Bishop’s secretary (and, of course, now a Monsignor too) so there is no way that this was a little misunderstanding or minor slip up.
Is this push for married priests the slippery backdoor intro approach to then allow so-called married “gay” priests too. Are they going to tell the trusting sheep that their committed in their same sex relationships too? If you can deny the Real Presence and/or punish a candidate for believing and still get away with it, then Linda Maria, ANYTHING goes.
Bless you, Catherine! LOVE all your excellent posts! And it is a worry, the vast immorality in the Church today! It also is a big worry, the scare of gay “married” priests!
Those who pine for the true Church with the infrangible Catholic truths that cannot be altered, see what is offered at DailyCatholic.org and fret not, for we must obey Christ before man, and Bergoglio is a heretic – public heretic which means he cannot be a true pope. See http://www.DailyCatholic.org/cumexapo.htm for what the Church has always ruled on this. Remember also the Great Apostasy that we have today was foretold in 2 Thessalonians 2: 3-11 and 2 Timothy 4: 3-4 as well as saints and Our Lady, especially at Quito and La Salette where she warned “The Church will lose the faith and become the seat of the antichrist.” We have, dear friends, arrived at that very time prophesied.
Bless you, James! After the Council, Pope Paul VI changed the traditional seven steps to priestly ordination, from initiation into the four Minor Orders and three Major Orders– to just two– ordination as a deacon, and then as a priest. The Pope overly-simplified the whole process, which was very sacred! Modernists do not understand the nature of the realms of the sacred! They only think in very simple terms, sadly! It is like a baker making a cake, and over-simplifying it, modern American-style, to be cheap and fast– and leaving out very important ingredients, and a very important process, steps that must be followed carefully, to turn out a really good cake, correctly! MAKES ME SICK!!
Bless you, James! I agree! The heart and soul of our Faith, has always been in the Tridentine Latin Mass! When the Fathers of Vatican II dropped their bombs, and “nuked” our Mass– destroying it to smithereens, forbidding any priest or prelate to say the Old Latin Mass (an evil political tool, to force everyone to accept the Novus Ordo Mass)– the True Church was DEAD– and everyone was in shock!! But fortunately– Christ really meant for His True Church, established at the Last Supper– to stand in His place, and sanctify and prepare His followers for Heaven, until His Second Coming! So, many good souls preserved all they could, and tried to re-build our True Church! Since the day our True Mass died, I have daily, patiently,…
(Continued) Since the day our True Mass died, I have daily, patiently prayed for its full return– even if I am no longer alive, when my prayer is at last fulfilled!
“the True Church was DEAD” This is patently a heresy. You have just contradicted Our Lord’s words that “the gates of hell shall nor prevail against it.” How come you people, time and again, contradict the words of Scripture, the words of Our Lord Himself whenever you denigrate Vatican II?? It shows you people have STRAYED far from Him.
Linda Maria, you also praised James who clearly said that the “Vatican II” church does not have validly ordained and consecrated religious. That IS heresy, and instead of calling you out, you praise him.
Mike Cain, You are correct in your two discussions above. Great points that all of us need to face and accept these facts no matter how scary they happen to be. I have heard that there is a great ecumenical summit going on in Jerusalem now with Francis. If so this is appalling, we do not all worship the same God. There is only one God, the 3 Divine Persons in the Holy Trinity. No other god exists, all others are pagans, figments of man or the devils imagination and fascination. Allah is not god but a pagan. Islam is satanic worship. Mudammad is the devil. Do not fall for Satan’s trap. Our Lord has clearly made known to us that NO ONE comes to the Father except through Him! Jesus was very specific, no beating around the bush,…
I thought priests were already married to the Church. Now the Pope wants them to commit adultery and have 2 wives? Modernism/Alinskism/Masonry is rearing it’s ugly and satanic head again. No Sacrament is safe from the hands of modernist clergymen. Let us all increase our prayers that we may retain our faith in these days of the apostasy. +JMJ+
James, where in the world did you get the chutzpah to claim “Those changes invalidated the efficacy of the sacrament? Are you, James, the new manager of Grace? Tell me what you know that the rest of the Magesterium doesn’t. I’m all ears. Linda Marie, shame on you for countenancing for even a moment that wild and irresponsible accusation.
LMaria’s comments have to be called out. All the valid liturgies of the Church, in the OF or EF, convey God’s grace. There ought not to be any question in any devout Catholic’s mind of the efficacy of any legitimate and valid liturgy of the Church. It is irresponsible to even mention it. It weakens the faith of Catholics.
I can testify that at least one married Episcopal priest who crossed the Tiber and was ordained a Catholic Priest was the equal of any celibate I have encountered in half a dozen decades in the Church. In holiness, willingness to serve and (of interest on this site) sheer fidelity. Not to be too blunt about it, he was a lot more conservative than any of the Irish celibates in the parish. I don’t want to go into specifics, to avoid identifying the remaining priests, because he has retired.
News for the times: If the election goes the wrong way (towards unholy abortion, death & liberal justices) & the global socialist party steals it, we won’t have to worry about these trifles as WE MAY NOT HAVE A CHURCH TO GO TO. See the details @ http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/priest-you-might-not-have-a-church-to-go-to-if-you-dont-vote-the-right-way/ If you are paying attention, you realize this is NOT an exaggeration. This election is for religious America. May God help us as only He can & be merciful to America. Praying.
FP..Repeal the Johnson act and the Fundamentalist Protestants will be able to money launder for some really crazy candidates (Some anti Catholic) with their people getting a tax write off. Far better that we all speak from the pulpit on issues only.
Well, it is fair to say that Linda Maria has expressed her views. Now, for some reality. In the Roman Catholic Church there have always been and still are married Priests. Most are in the Eastern Catholic churches that are part of the RCC. The Eastern Orthodox churches also have married Priests. A number of Priests of the Anglican tradition have become Roman Catholic Priest. There is a certain amount of credibility to a Priest who mentions his grandchild in his sermon, or talks about the trials of raising a child and making for a happy marriage. We need Priests. Let’s ordain the Deacons. They have the same training for all intents and purposes and have proven they can be pastoral.
Well, Bob One– I prefer to hear sermons mainly about the Scripture readings for the day, teachings to help us with Catholic Faith ad morals, details of the life of a Saint whose Feast Day it may be– and words of inspiration, to help guide us in the spiritual life! Of course, Christ as a master at integrating examples of daily human life, with religious themes and teachings, to guide us to holiness! Everything in life, for Him– was related to God! The Church is a place of sanctification, to learn holiness, to prepare for Heaven! Any events related to our daily human struggle, should be related to our quest for holiness and Heaven!
As I said above– Christ was a master at relating everyday stories and parables, (including stories about marriage and children)— demonstrating how to lead a good Christian life. Instead of using fancy theological terms– He used everyday situations, to explain His teachings! I agree with Bob One, that this is a very good way to teach people, in sermons! This past Sunday, we had the parable of the selfish rich man, who did not care about the poor and suffering— and the poor beggar, Lazarus, and how each ended up. I laughed, about the rich man complaining –“its hot in here!” while the poor beggar was enjoying Heaven!
No Bob One we need Holy Priests….
James offers a very important point regarding the validity of the New Ordination Rite of Paul VI (6/18/1968): the changes are so vast from what Pius XII defined (Sacramentum Ordinis,1947) as to be essential to the sacrament it is fair to discuss the validity.
Most notably, the pre-Vatican II rite specifically missioned the priest to offer “propiatory sacrifice for the living and the dead.” This language was stripped from the 1968 rite.
Why important? In 1896, Leo XI (Apostolicae Curae) pronounced Anglican orders as invalid, because Cranmer’s Ordinal eliminated the role of a “sacrificing priesthood” (“sacerdotium”), showing his intent to change the sacrament. The new rite dropped the words “to offer sacrifice”.
So, the Paul VI rite dropped the words “to offer sacrifice” and specifically states the priest’s duty is “to bless, lead, preach, and baptize”—much like a Protestant minister’s mission. A clear conflict with a previous popes explicit definitions.
One might go on from there to look at what other ordaining prelates have revealed in their sermons and homilies about what they intend when they ordain, believe is “Church”—people like Rembert Weakland, Roger Mahony, and yes, our own retired archbishop of SF, John Raphael Quinn. What was their intent as ordaining prelate—that matters too.
As a specific example: Look up Quinn’s fantastic “Oxford Lecture” (June, 1996) to get a view of a completely different church. His…
Quinn’s intent when he was ordaining priests has to be seriously questioned, as to what church he intended them to serve in, when you read his 1996 Oxford Lecture:
https://www.ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/OXFORD.htm
Bless you, Campion!
Campion, I suggest reading the Introduction to the General Instruction of the Roman Missal. In the opening paragraphs, Paul VI explicitly mentioned the sacrificial nature of the Mass as solemnly defined by Trent and how Vatican II accepted it without question, quoting n. 47 of Sacrosanctam Concilium. While I would have been happier had stronger sacrificial verbiage been used in the Ordination Rite, it is in fact there. One can look at the homily provided (and is sometimes used) to see it there explicitly. One of the questions posed to the candidate asks him to celebrate the divine mysteries for the sanctification of God’s People. And we know that is done by means of the Mass being a Sacrifice.
Parallels to the Anglicans are weak…
Thank you, Fr M, I do read and have read often the most recent revision of GIRM, which has many corrections to the original-1969-Bugnini-inspired concept of an ecumenical memorial service (GIRM as you know has been through at least 4 revisions).
However, the original GIRM (1969) revealed Bugnini’s intent (Michael Davies says “too nakedly”) in the Novus Ordo Mass: ” The Lord’s Supper or the Mass is a sacred assembly or gathering together of the People of God, with a priest presiding to celebrate the memorial of the Lord.” (Art. 7, 1969 edition). = The Lord’s Supper is only a memory of the past.
Why this is important today is that it reflects the underlying problem with the NO: especially, the replacement of Offertory…
…with a berakoth prayer (“Blessed are you, God”) similar to the sedar service. In the TLM, the initial prayer of the Offertory states purpose (“Suscipe, Sancte Pater”): this is a propiatory sacrifice of expiation for the living and the dead. This was stripped by Bugnini, according to Louis Bouyer, to satisfy the Consilium committee’s Protestant observers, to have an ecumenical service.
Now, you as an obviously conscientious priest and also your ordaining prelate “intend what the Church has always intended”, that the Mass is a sacrifice as described above. There has been progress in, what, 4 plus decades? After all, one of Bugnini’s deliberate mis-translations of the Words of Institution (“for you and for all”), has…
..finally been corrected after about 5 decades. That is progress, but it is slow.
With regard to the ordination rite, this excision of the specific ritual words (a priest is “to offer sacrifice), that were solemnly defined by Pius XII (1947, Sacramentum Ordinis), but words that were specifically odious to Annibale Bugnini, is a serious fault, and has not yet been corrected.
That is why the intent of the ordaining prelate has to be determined by reference to his other statements on priesthood: it isn’t explicit, and that presents a serious debate about validity of the sacrament.
One other thing: What Sacrosanctum Concilium (1963) says, and what GIRM (1969) said for the first several decades were completely contradictory.
That is because Bugnini, according to Buoyer, lied to Paul VI that the changes were insisted upon by the Consilium “experts”, and then lied to the Consilium that the GIRM and sacrament changes were insisted upon by the Pope (cf. “Memoirs”, pps. 218-230 for a full account). The usually restrained Buoyer calls Bugnini “a mealy-mouthed scoundrel” “utterly bereft of culture as much as he was of honesty.”
And remember, during this time he wasn’t even a bishop, yet was named head of the most important Vatican II body in 1965 (He wasn’t made bishop until he was “kicked…
…upstairs” and gotten rid of to become episcopal ordinary of Teheran, Iran (much the way they got “rid” of Rembert Weakland, although the people of Milwaukee would rue that day).
This is typical nonsense from Campion, the usual SSPX propaganda against the legitimate clergy of the Church. Folks, if the Pope has approved the new rite of ordination, be assured that it is valid and lawful. The legislator, in this case the Holy Father (Pope Paul VI here to be exact), has jurisdiction over the rites of the Church, and they can be trusted upon to be valid. There is no “serious” debate over the validity of the new rite of ordination. That’s bunk! The fact is that the Magisterium of any era and period has every right over the liturgies of the Church and can be trusted upon to have been guided by the Holy Spirit to make amendments to the Church’s liturgy as it will it! This silly talk about the invalidity of…
ordinations after Vatican II is nonsense and is being perpetuated by your beloved SSPX.
….you would do better not to dredge up your favorite straw man. You betray your own bias, jon. The Society isn’t the boogie man, but rather an obvious scapegoat for your fixated anger against the truth.
There are schismatic groups that teach these kinds of things.
Indeed there are Anonymous. The author Michael Davies whom Campion refers and who was a big proponent of this debunked theory was a supporter of the beloved SSPX. These folks have a motive for casting aspersions and animosity against the Second Vatican Council, the Ordinary Form, and the legitimate clergy. And there are still folks like AMalley who sadly would rather remain duped by the beloved SSPX.
By the way, a very good summary of Louis Bouyer’s “Memoirs”, which gives you a feel for the lies and naked deconstruction of the Catholic liturgy and sacraments by a man (Bugnini) who was “as bereft of culture as he was of honesty”, appeared in 2014 in New Liturgical Movement.
I recommend it for everyone to understand what has happened to our rites, our sacraments, and to the Mass:
https://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2014/09/fr-louis-bouyer-on-liturgical-reform.html#.V-rVjofrtLM
By the way, Bugnini finally was exiled to Teheran in January, 1975 by Paul VI: but Bouyer historically confirms in writing the climactic event of Bugnini’s downfall, when a cardinal, possibly Cardinal Giovanni Bennelli himself, personally delivered a massive file to Paul VI documenting extensively Bugnini’s active membership and position in the Masonic Lodge , sometime in July 1975 (“Memoirs,” p. 230: possibly July 15, 1975).
Being appointed as papal nuncio to a volatile and sensitive part of the world such as Iran (especially in 1975) is not “exile” but a sign of confidence. No cleric suspected of masonry would be appointed to such a high office. Your fanciful calumnies are just that—fanciful. Riddled with the usual SSPX misinformation aimed at casting doubt in people’s minds against the legitimate clergy of the Church and the sacraments. Beware people. Beware.
Campion, I will look up your reference to Bouyer. Thank you.
Yeah for married priests. The requirement for priestly celibacy was not the rule for the first 1000 years of the Church! Permitting priests to marry could be considered part of the ressourcement movement.
This discussion about “married Priests” only goes to prove that most people only believe in the pronouncements of the Magistarium that they want to believe. Full disclosure – I do too sometimes.
Additional information about the famous “torpedoing” of the Council plan for the original schemata in October, 1962, comes directly from this recent interview with P. BXVI, re. German book publisher Droemer Verlag, “Benedikt XVI. Letzte Gespräche (Benedict XVI – Last Conversations”) “BXVI Admits Qualms of Conscience About Vatican II”.
https://www.onepeterfive.com/benedict-xvi-admits-qualms-of-conscience-about-vatican-ii/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Onepeterfive+%28OnePeterFive%29
The original schemata that were set aside had been sent worldwide to all bishops and cardinals, and their responses in 1960-1961 were actually used to draft the proposals for the Council.
The two most commonly responded items by Catholic bishops world-wide? A declaration of Mary as Mediatrix of the Church, and a condemnation of communism/socialism. (cf. Robert De Mattei, “The 2nd Vatican Council: An Unwritten Story”).
That was what V2 was supposed to be about. Instead… well you know the rest of the story.