“Brother William Woeger, F.S.C. has been selected as the Liturgical Consultant for the renovation of the Crystal Cathedral into our future Christ Cathedral,” said an announcement posted on the diocese’s website.
Brother Woeger is based out of Omaha, Nebraska.
“I believe that design of spaces for worship, as with all the arts, is at the service of the liturgy,” Brother Woeger was quoted as saying in the brief diocesan announcement. “I help clients to understand, explore and appreciate the possibilities within their community for full expression of the Church’s liturgical rites. This is an exciting process which can result in a unique outcome expressive of a particular community’s identity and understanding of itself as a worshiping assembly in the Roman Catholic tradition.”
Brother Woeger has a lengthy resume of designing or renovating churches in California and across the U.S. His California projects have included serving as designer/consultant for the Cathedral of Christ the Light in Oakland, a 1998 renovation of Most Holy Redeemer Parish in San Francisco, and the renovation of Sacramento’s Cathedral of the Blessed Sacrament from 2003-2009.
According to his resume, Br. Woeger charges $400 per day plus housing and travel costs on a per diem basis, or a flat fee of $35,000 that “covers all services.”
To read the full diocesan statement, click here.
Why do I feel alarmed? I don’t know…..
You should be. He’s responsible for the big “barn” in Oakland, a Catholic Church with no statues or kneelers.
Oh, my goodness!! Is that the person responsible for possibly the most hideous outrage in architecture, more ugly than a German war bunker, more banal than a hamburger chain fast food drive through, as ghastly as a bombed out city with broken buildings like jagged teeth and visually the equivelant to ten thousand fingernails running down chalkboards in unison… this is the guy? No one could be a worse choice. I was never more shocked than when I saw the interior of that massacre of beauty, that black wart on a street in Oakland. Just what California needs… if I were you all, I’d start a campaign to hire the architect from Notre Dame. I can’t think of his name. I think he was involved in the design of the chapel at Thomas Aquinas in Santa Paula. I’m not sure, but he’s trying to bring back tradition and beauty to Catholic churches.
Would you be happier if the Archdiocese of Orange scraped the site and built a gothic cathedral? Br. William and the architects have been hired to convert the existing space (essentially a mega-TV studio) into a Catholic Cathedral. The focus will definitely be on the liturgy, and it will definitely be a Catholic space.
Catholic tradition is dictated by the events that occur in the space, not by the space itself. If we are only to worship in ‘original’ or ‘traditional’ spaces, then I suppose we should only gather in caves, small homes, and under cover of night, as early Christians did. There were no communion rails or gothic spires in 34 AD.
Did you not get the ‘community part”
“I help clients to understand, explore and appreciate the possibilities within their community for full expression of the Church’s liturgical rites.
He tailors it to the “desire of the community”
As in you do not understand, until you have met him, and he will guide you for $35,000.00.
The Bishop does not know enough about Liturgy over there to have it properly designed?
Why do I get the feeling there will not be any Tridentine Masses at Christ Cathedral? Instead I expect the same “spirit” of Vatican II, modernist facility that is lacking in anything remotely Catholic.
Does the Brother recommend a Tabernacle at the main altar?
A communion rail with kneeler for those who wish to receive the Lord while kneeling?
If he does not, he is not worth the $$$$$$.
Today all Catholic Churches that are being remodeled should be set up for both the Ordinary Form of the Mass and the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.
Both forms are Holy.
A good book is: “Dominus Est – It is the Lord” by Most Rev. Athanasius Schneider.
I would suggest that tabernacles in churches follow the example of Saint Peter’s Basilica in Rome—-the tabernacle is a a very special place in a Blessed Sacrament Chapel to the right of the high altar.
Having been to many masses in Saint Peter’s Basilica, I do not remember a communion rail in the Mother Church of Roman Catholicism.
St. Peters is not the mother Church, St. John Lateran is the seat of the Bishop of Rome.
My mistake about the MOTHER CHURCH — sorry. Where is the tabernacle in San Giovanni?
@ Abeca: I too was initially alarmed as I read the article, but I live in the Diocese of Sacramento and our Cathedral is absolutely stunning! Of course it was a “restoration” to it’s former glory, not a “renovation” which is what that glass monster surely will be. I have been in the Crystal Cathedral, it will certainly be a challenge to “convert” it to an appropriate worship space…. we shall see.
If you’re ever in town, you need to stop in to appreciate it!
When we fear the Lord, we don’t accept change that comes from man, but always remembering that our Lord never changes and His place of worship is still reverent and holy in rich traditions that come from the heavens not from modern worldly views.
‘The first degree of humility is the fear of God, which we should constantly have before our eyes.’
–St. Louis de Blois
“We are Christians and therefore must show respect for everything, especially those things connected with the Church, which is called the temple of God, a holy place, and a house of prayer.”
– Saint Don Bosco
Put the Tabernacle front and center!!!!
So, Most Holy Redeemer Parish in San Francisco chose him . . .
Does anyone else get nervous when he hears the term “liturgical consultant”?
Oh my, what a resume. Is Christ Church destined to become disappointing in every way? What a pity. And with a name like that, an inspired choice that gave us hope. With great effort, we could forgive the aesthetic horrors of the edifice in light, so to speak, of its enormous practical value, but how can we overlook the expected results of this man’s hiring? I feel sick at heart and deeply concerned, exactly the same way I felt the day my doctor told me I had cancer. What is the prognosis for Christ Church? Let us pray.
Be very aware he was involved in the Cathedral in Oakland and many other modern monstrosites in so called Catholic “wreckovations”. Here we go again, Novus Ordonarian nitemares, “Duncan Stroik” he is not, so don’t expect anything in terms of Traditional Catholicism, just a fair warning to all Traditionalists here!!
He is a liturgical consultant, not an architect. Whatever you think of the Oakland cathedral, he didn’t design it. I have no idea what he has in mind for the former Crystal Cathedral but it will require very large liturgical furniture (for lack of a better term) such as a wide and impressive altar to compensate for the openness of the space. The comments about his fee seem off base to me. I assume that his fee goes to his order.
That’s the name I was trying to think of, Janek. Thanks! Duncan Stroik.
I think Janek is right. I think that this image that man is now imposing on today’s modern buildings and churches is that it is trying to please man… be careful to please man because there is a deception of thinking we are worshiping God but sometimes it can be a worship of self. But only the good Lord knows, whatever we do. I just pray that we hire people who really and most truly are seeking to please God and know His traditions, not what new ideas man has come up with. I pray that they get approval from our Pope and are faithful or else much more scandal can come from not doing what is true and right. Moving forward should never neglect the church and its roots. It needs to open the minds of the faithful that are now living in horrific modern times that lack virtue and truth towards what the real faith is all about, never leaving behind what truly matters in God’s eye’s from the get go! God have mercy on us all.
“You cannot please both God and the world at the same time. They are utterly opposed to each other in their thoughts, their desires, and their actions.” by Saint John Marie Vianney
Wow, Cathedral of the Blessed Sacrament is beautiful! Hopefully he can somehow bring out the best in the former Crystal Cathedral.
I’ve been to the cathedral of the Blessed Sacrament in Sacramento. It is beautiful inside. I hope Br Woeger does a renovation of the Crystal Cathedral of a similar quality.
Jack, the Sacramento renovation cost about $40 million. Can Orange afford Br. Woeger?
When I saw the title of this story I said to myself, “Oh no, not Brother Woeger again”. Sure enough. Why doesn’t he just stay in Omaha and handle his AIDS ministries, and monitor flower shows and stop racking up big bills for dioceses that are losing money every day? At $400 day plus housing, etc., Br. Woeger earns quite a good living. What happened to the vow of poverty he took as a Christian Brother? Oh well, business as usual in the secular-leaning Catholic organization.
Thanks for beating me to the point. I was also going to ask what happened to his alleged vow of poverty. Fifty Dollars an hour for an eight hour day, if he puts in that much, is certainly not poverty wages, PLUS THE OTHER BENEFITS! What kind of Luxurious hotel will he be staying at? Oh well, he can’t really make the glass menagerie any worse, can he?
Why couldn’t he stay at a Rectory? ARCHBISHOP KHAI had no problem staying at a rectory or even peoples homes, and he was an Archbishop!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Ken, when Br. Woeger was here in Sacramento he stayed at the Sheraton Grand, adjacent to the Cathedral. The Cathedral does boast a large rectory next door. Guess it was not luxurious enough.
Please correct me if I’m wrong but I believe the salary Br. William is paid goes back to his order, does it not? I do believe the amount he charges is over the top for a religious, regardless of his credentials, experience, etc. I feel that religious (priests, fathers, brothers, sisters, etc) should have lower fees for church-related work compared to what a lay person or some other secular entity might charge. I agree with Kenneth, there is no reason a religious can’t stay in one of the nearby rectories or even with a nearby religious order. The Brothers of Saint Patrick are nearby as well as the religious order that runs Servite (I forget the name of the order).
I think I agree with the first commenter. The “High” altar at Blessed Sacrament is small enough to be a rabbit cage. Most Holy Redeemer is pleasant but has the tabernacle at least 75 feet (at least it’s directly behind) the table that stands on a peninsula with pews left, center, and right.
I don’t know what to think about the cathedral in Oakland. Beautiful on the outside, very and perhaps too much lighted on the inside, obtrusive and noisily bubbling baptismal font that distracts upon entering, stage (altar) area lower than the pews.
Wow. $400 a day is $50 per hour for an eight hour day. $35,000 flat fee is like a year’s salary for a lot of people — and more than that for many others. Will it take him a whole year ? I understand his money must go to help support his religious order. What would his order say about lay people getting this kind of salary ? I’ll bet $50 per hour is above the national average.
We could form a committee and make suggestions for a whole lot cheaper! (As long as there’s a coffee pot going, I’ll come for free).
I don’t have an issue with paying for it if it was solid and true. So I can’t make a judgement but because I feel alarmed, I don’t know what to think of his work. From what I gather….there is some questions!
Several here have stated that some of his work is beautiful. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, one wonders if God will see his work as beautiful!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
As we are discussing the Diocese of Orange, at least Rod Stephens from Sacra Forma was NOT hired.
Yes, so true. How many liturgical design and consulting jobs Rod Stephens (formerly Father Rod) was hired for by the LA and Orange Dioceses we may never know. I wonder if he is still being offered jobs in any diocese. The way I see it, tithings from faithful Catholics were (perhaps still are) being paid so this priest and then later ex priest could support his active homosexual lifestyle, such a scandal!
He’s probably designing pig pens for farmers now.
My hunch is not any Traditional Latin Mass at the new cathedral, but I guarantee you there will be Spanish, Vietnamese, Tagalog, guitars, drums, dancing girls, altar girls, hand holding, clapping, kiss of peace, Protestant hymns, you know typical Novus Ordonarian shenanigans!! Just telling it like it is folks!!
And, Janek, we pray you are right! We don’t need dark churches without natural light. But we do need masses in every language of the people. That building has an enormous organ, if you can find someone to play it. It sounds like you don’t like it when people worship their God with cymbals and drums, much less a guitar. Oh, let’s make sure the people don’t like the music they sing in praise of the Lord or they might tap their feet, ignore their fellow parishioners or look to the ground all through the mass. You are very much out of the mainstream of the Catholic church.
Why don’t we just have Masses that unify us? Latin used to do that just fine. Now, everyone has to have their language/culture represented or it is some kind of high offense against humanity.
Sue in soCal, when Latin was the language of the Mass, parishes were ethnic enclaves. Polish, German, Italian etc.
And? In the early 1900s, yes because neighborhoods then, like now, were populated by people of similar backgrounds. But wherever you went, the Mass was the Mass in the same format with the same responses in the same Latin. No liturgical dancers or priests in clown makeup because sacred liturgy occurred in sacred space. When I was growing up in Spanish and English speaking communities, we all went to the Church where the liturgy was in Latin. (By the way, my maternal grandmother attended the Polish church, my grandfather the German church. Somehow, they still found each other. . .)
No, Anonymous, I was there, and I never heard of an ethnic church until I was in my 20’s. Every church in America was completely inclusive, and anyone was welcome in any of the churches built by Poles for the Polish, Germans for the Germans, etc. By the 1900’s virtually every immigrant proudly spoke English and could make any Catholic feel welcome at any church in the nation, even if it was built by his or her ethnic ancestors. Latin was indeed the universal language for Catholics around the world, scientists and scholars, and many Catholic students benefitted from learning Latin easily with the Roman Missal and utilized that knowledge in learning other Romance languages as well as enjoying a higher English language proficiency than other students as a result of that enriching and unifying exposure.
The unification is brought about by the Holy Eucharist, not by the accidentals surrounding It. The liturgical things were honed over many centuries to help the soul tune in to God during the Mass. The novus ordo liturgy did away with that, and instead it tunes into the world, the flesh and the devil.
Bob One your contempt for the TLM is revolting… I have to deal with masses where there is all kinds of pathetic music and happy clappy nonsense, where there is a community but not an ounce of reverence for Christ or His sacrifice. Janek and I are part of a growing group of Catholics who have had it with this nonsense.
Canissius, I have never said that I have contempt for the TLM. Fifty plus years ago that is all there was. I was brought up on and in it. I was, however, overjoyed when Priest started praying the Mass in English and French. I could finally really understand them. It made most of us feel more like a community. If people want to attend the TLM, they should have the opportunity. I have no idea why a Bishop would oppose it. On the other hand, I think that I should be able to attend a Mass in the venacular. I just got through watching the Mass from the national Basilica in Washington for the vigil of the weekend for life. It was wonderful, even though it was in English, concelebrated by Cardinals and Bishops and hundreds of Priest. Nobody could say it was not reverent and pious. By the way, your grouwing group will have to grow a lot to have much influence on the Bishops. They will listen to groups that represent the majority of parishioners, but they don’t pay much attention to a group that represents less than one percent of the faithful. Or, you can wait for us 70 and 80 year olds to drop off. On the other hand, most of the crowd under 50 years old have never heard of a Latin Mass.
Well Bob One, you are right about one thing: the Bishops have been ignoring us faithful Catholics for 45 years. They instead have been listening to people like you, which is why the Church has been in rapid free fall. It has been your crowd with the loud bands, protestant hymns, rainbow flags etc, and you wonder why a minority of Catholics believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. But times are starting to change, God be praised, it is the traditional orders like FSSP and Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest who have to turn away applicants because there is no room for them. The dying orders of Vatican 2, will do just that. Also by the Grace of God the SSPX will rejoin the Church and the house cleaning can really begin and put a final nail in the coffin of the Vatican 2 generation.
BO, your posts make it clear that you not only have contempt for the Traditional Latin Mass, but also for Catholic Magisterial doctrines.
Janek sounds mainstream Roman Catholic to me versus Episcopalian, Luthern or whatever else
We have a history of Catholic music that is rarely used, we used to use a language (Latin) that united us all, we once dressed for Mass to show how important it was to us, we use to have churches that were unashamedly vertical and a tabernacle that was not put to the side and we had a common vision of what it was to be Roman Catholic – which is not the same as what is sometimes referred to as American Catholic.
The novus ordo church, Bob One, is confused and filled to overflowing with all kinds of stupid errant religious beliefs … the Evangelicals by contrast are unified around the Written Word of God, and act on their united Christian morals than do the novus ordo people. If there were, in a scenario, a large crowd made of novus ordo Catholics and Evangelicals, and a catastrophe occurred, it would the the Evangelicals who would immediately create organization and rational thinking, while the n.o. types would run amok in total confusion.
There are 62 different Christian denominations in our phone book. They are not unified.
It’s estimated that there are about 35,000 protestant denominations all together. Evangelicals are a subgroup that can be non-denominational or part of a broken-away main stream denomination (mostly baptists). The Amish have divided up into various subgroups and often do not speak to one another. It’s the nature of man unfortunately, and it is only through the grace of the Holy Spirit that we are able to unite and overcome differences. If only priests and bishops would humble themselves and submit to Church authority and honor the sacred words they’re supposed to impart… what is so difficult about adhering to the liturgy and Papal authority?
Good grief, skai… how wrong can a person be? Evangelicals are as divided and feuding as the Hatfields and McCoys. The only religious group that doesn’t seem to be divided are the Jehova’s Witnesses and Buddhists. The muslims are totally divided and fighting all the time, as are the atheists if one becomes a believer he becomes shunned and treated like a leper.
The mystery phrase I used is “by contrast”. There is a limited number of heretical ideas; all of these are found in the novus ordo devotees. There are no additional heresies found among the Evangelicals, and often there are fewer among those folks.
Skai, there IS no “Novus Ordo Church” for you to look down on with such disdain.
Our Church is one, holy, catholic and apostolic — the bride of Christ.
There may be some PEOPLE in our Church who annoy or displease you — but even they, news flash!, are children of God and your brothers in Christ.
Mackz, there is a novus ordo church and you’re one of its spokespersons. Might not be obvious to you, but it is to countless others. Many gays are like that also; they cannot fathom how normal people see their queerness right off the bat.
Skai you sure gave a good example of what really happens in the novus ordo parishes. It sure does seem the way you described it. But I do have to say that there are still good devout novus ordo parishes, I know because they are the ones I noticed that do evangalize well the faith and study apologetic’s too. I appreciate those that do and it does get my kids attention to learn the faith more.
But that does not go without saying but Skai makes good points. I can’t tell you how often I was objected by trying to teach the CCC with our women’s bible studies. Many had their own views and many without the knowledge of holy scripture and what the church actually taught.
Do you want to envision what the house of glass will look like on the interior? Then go visit the other churches in California that he renovated.
And to think, that my Irish ancestors gladly attended Mass at hidden “Mass Rocks” during the English persecutions!
Bob one no doubt “stands in unity” before our Lord.
If anyone can’t accept the sterile modern church buildings that don’t look Roman Catholic, then don’t go to them! Find a traditional Roman Catholic Parish to join. I can guarantee folks won’t be disappointed with the traditional Roman Catholic Churches especially those that long for the grandeur, beauty, and reverent atmosphere enjoyed by our grandparents generation ago.
We never had a need for “Liturgical Consultants” prior to Vatican II. After all what is the role of the priest who has been trained for this very thing?
The liturgical consultant will keep the architect or contractor or remodeler from doing things which would make the liturgy more difficult. They understand the way Mass is to be said, baptisms, weddings etc. are to be done. There was a church that I visited where the baptistry was a fountain placed at the entrance to the sanctuary and you could hardly hear over it. Liturgical consultants would be able to see problems that designs might cause when the Church was in use
Are you sure a consultant didn’t put the fountain there?
There is a saying that religious members take the vow of poverty, but others live the vow. Charging such inflated fees is outrageous! I suggest that a member of the Extra-Ordinary form be involved in the process; then at least the building will look like a church dedicated to Almighty God, and not to some pagan witchdoctor.
Please get real Father. $500 a day for someone of his reputation, even if you don’t like it, is a rather small fee. Most consutants to business today get $2,500-3,000 per day. Lawyers charge $400-500 per hour for talking to you on the phone. Let’s face it, he doesn’t work every day and there are not that many people who know how to do what he does. If it were not for people like him our churches would still be built as they were in the middle ages. They were designed for another church, not the modern Catholic church. Although our beliefs have not changed, the way we celebrate community and Mass have changed somewhat and the buildings should accomodate those changes.
The new Churches built after Vatican Council II are an effective way of destroying the Catholic Faith. For example, see the cathedral in Los Angeles built by Cdl. Mahony.
Cdl built a cathedral?? I thought that was a combo warehouse and shopping mall.
Bob one please show a little more respect when posting a comment to Father… thank you!
Bob One…”the modern Catholic Church” has crumbled into ruins because of the modernism that your promote….we traditionalist will rebuild it and sweep away the modernist garbage
Bob One says, “Lawyers charge $400-500 per hour for talking to you on the phone”
Bob One has either forgotten or he is hoping that others have forgotten this reality. A qualified crook can be just as immoral and unethical as an unqualified crook.
The father of lies surely recognizes that his time is short. There is a great push for a select new modern day destructive brand of the age old crooked money changer in the temple. These are the immorally and unethically priced and hired *temple changers* who “sack Catholic churches”, who “worship spaces ” and who worship getting paid big $$ for sacking our Catholic churches. This is simply not a case of grazing dumb sheep saying, “Let’s put these sheep fleecers up at the Ritz Carlton while they sack our spiritual inheritance.” This is a case of “My sheep perish due to a deliberately imposed lack of knowledge.”
‘Goodbye Good Men’ – hello – ‘Ugly as Sin.’
I would recommend Riccardo Vicenzino to be the architect. He fully the Traditional Latin Mass. His office is in New York City. Search him up.
Manfred send your recommendations to this dioceses please….
Yes! Put the Tabernacle front and center with the priest facing the Tabernacle! I want kneelers and I want to receive communion on the tongue. There should be NO TALKING in the cathedral. Shaking and holding hands and clapping should be eliminated. In the Garden of Gethsemani, during Jesus’s agony, He woke the Apostles and asked them if they could pray with him for ONLY ONE HOUR. The Mass needs to be about our COMPLETE FOCUS and RESPECT for God and NOT about the people around us. Talk to the people outside after Mass. Oh! I forgot. Many people rush out before the last blessing, rush to their cars, and speed away. Forgive me for my rant. I’ll pray for a return to reverence and respect for Jesus and His Father and the Holy Spirit for the one hour we are asked to spend each week at Mass.
Why in the WORLD would the celebrant face the tabernacle?
Most of the Mass is directed to God the Father, also asking Him to send the Holy Spirit to transform the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ.
The faithful then receive the Body and Blood of Jesus in Communion. For NONE of this is a tabernacle required, as you see during Mass at Saint Peter’s Basilica in Rome.
There, the tabernacle is in a side chapel, so the faithful can pray when Mass is NOT being said — and, more importantly, in case someone is dying and needs to receive Viaticum.
Why Mackz? Because the celebrant along with the laity face Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament.
The extraordinary form of the Roman Rite does not forbid, nor does the ordinary form require, the position of the priest facing the people (versus populum). “It is proper to explain clearly that the expression “celebrate facing the people” does not have a theological sense, but only a topographical-positional sense. Every celebration of the Eucharist is praise and glory of God, for our good and the good of all the Church. Theologically, therefore, the Mass is always facing toward God and facing the people. In the form of celebration it is necessary to take care not to switch theology and topography around, above all when the priest is at the altar. The priest speaks to the people only from the dialogue from the altar. All the rest is prayer to the Father, through the mediation of Christ, through the Holy Spirit. This theology must be visible.” Congregation of Divine Worship 1993
Why do we have a tabernacle? If one follows Catholic canon law, it is a place to puts any extra consecrated hosts until they are needed by people who are home bound or in health facilities. In fact, there should only be as many hosts as are needed until the next mass. Our risen Lord is there, of course, and we can visit to pray, but there is no “better” place to put the tabernacle. It is permited to be on or directly behind the altar, on a side altar, as it is at St. Peter’s, or in a special chapel that is available to the people.
Who are you? Careful there! Your true colors are really being exposed. You have a role to play and you are falling down on that ill fated job. You have suddenly become an advocate of selective greediness. Are you a card carrying firm believer in robbing Peter to serve the agenda of radical Saul? Remember Bob it was you who also touted the ACLU. Scripture records that Judas also betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver but Bob, even Judas is never recorded as saying the words “get real” to Jesus.”
Look at the terrible greed shown in wasting even more money that could help to feed and clothe the poor or send little children to a faithful Catholic school. Of course we would have to start promoting those faithful Catholic schools first. Bob, you are always accusing others of not caring enough about the poor. Here was a golden opportunity to at least *appear* consistent but you didn’t speak up and there is a reason. You flip flopped you’re priorities and now all of the sudden you are in favor of great greed and denying the poor so serially prolific temple changers or church sackers can make some BIG GREEDY BUCKS off of interiorly and exteriorly stripping away the many beautiful vestiges of our Catholic faith.
Wasn’t the new age “Crystal Cathedral” externally Protestant looking enough with it’s sterile planet Krypton looking appearance as well as it’s interior design of rebellion towards the teachings of the true faith?
Bob something is very wrong. This is the paying of big $$ to sack Catholic churches to make them even more unrecognizable. Bob, You are clothing yourself in inconsistencies and then telling faithful priests to “get real.” I see that Abeca also noticed the waving of that all too familiar red flag of disrespect and she asked you to show respect.
Our Lady of Fatima already warned the entire world about Russia spreading it’s error and Our Lady of Akita warned us that due to compromises our churches would be sacked. Heretics and schemers are concerned with ONE THING ONLY! … Keeping others spiritually poor, spiritually blind and spiritually robbed.
The last time I heard someone tell others that he wanted to eventually see “not one reserved host” in the Tabernacle was from a now ex priest and an ex-nun who also said we did NOT really even need a Tabernacle inside of a Catholic Church. The priest is only an ex priest because he was more open with his lifestyle and disdain for Church teaching. The ex nun also tried to fleece the listening and the trusting sheep for a donation of $$ right after she sounded just like you. You are not interested in teaching Canon Law but you are definitely showing you’re true colors.
BobOne, something is very wrong.
No, Canisius, we are not facing east to see Jesus in the tabernacle.
We pray toward the east as a sign that we look forward to the Second Coming of The Lord, which, symbolically, would be from the east.
This is why churches were built with the sanctuary at the eastern end: when we enter a church, we move toward the good; when we leave, we walk westward, sign of the evil of this world in which we now live.
The priest is our intercessor to God…he’s facing God for us. I think it shows a tremendous depth of understanding on the nature of priesthood when he is facing the tabernacle. When I see it done on EWTN, it is truly humbling to see just how important the priest is to our salvation. Without our priests there is no valid Eucharist. When they’re facing us it is distracting and we’re more an audience than partakers with the priest. I’m no expert as you can tell but I just thought I’d put in a little word. ;o)
Why, Mackz, would anyone want to watch the face of the priest during Mass? It’s not much different from watching the singer at a rock concert. Maybe you go to Mass to ogle the priest, Mackz, but I go to receive Holy Communion and I really don’t want some flippant priest interfering with that … Thank God some priests are holy and serious but many are silly and flippant.
I am all for the celebrant facing east with the people.
My point is that HE IS FACING EAST WITH THE PEOPLE, ad orientem, and not looking at the closed doors of the tabernacle.
For most of the Mass, the celebrant is praying to God the Father including his prayers that God the Father will send the Holy Spirit to change the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ.
If he’s got a tabernacle full of consecrated Hosts right in front of his nose, why bother to consecrate more?
This is why facing east makes sense (we are all praying to God, not to each other), but the tabernacle plays no role during the celebration of Mass. In fact, the Church teaches that the faithful should receive Hosts that have just been consecrated, rather than receiving Hosts from the tabernacle.
Christ is present in the Hosts in the Tabernacle, Christ is represented on the crucifix over the Tabernacle — thus ad orientem (towrd Christ the Sun of God, the Light of the World — in the Extraordinary Mass.
Also, in the Anglican Use Mass.
Skai — STOP OGLING YOUR PRIEST!
You will make him nervous!
What does OGLING mean?
Do you think this Christian Brother is living high on the hog, like Father Corapi?!?
People in such religious orders, whether they are a military priest chaplain with the rank of general (and thus pulling in really big bucks), or a professor, see most of their “income” going back to the order to take care of their aging members and such basic needs.
Diocesan priests get paid less but keep their salary to pay for their car, insurance, clothing, etc.
This is why the faithful don’t begrudge members of religious orders what they earn — it goes to support their larger community.
That’s lovely, macx that the money earned goes to support the order. But didn’t artists and craftsmen used to design the interior of churches? Especially as important as having beauty and aesthetic surroundings is to worship! A consultant? That just seems so strange.
I guess the “consultant” is supposed to keep the builders on target, so they don’t do anything real dumb.
Mackz? …Keep the builders on target so they don’t do anything *real dumb*?” Or do you mean too obvious? Mackz or max is the poster who wrote these words to a faithful Catholic priest, “Karl have you been sniffing too much incense?” max now talks about consultants keeping the builders from doing anything *real dumb.* Rebellion always surfaces in many dumb and new disguises.
max, You should have consulted with Mr. Common Sense before you wrote such a very ugly post. Now you want to be seen as the new and hip Mackz who is orthodox, fair, caring and truthful. A *good* consultant would have advised you to immediately apologize and critiqued you’re extremely poor judgement in writing such a “real dumb” thing. Especially if you *EVER* wanted to be taken seriously. A bad consultant would advise you to disguise your agenda with greater *finesse*. I see you’ve obviously chosen to listen to the bad consultant.
Now that same max writes,
“This is why the faithful don’t begrudge members of religious orders what they earn — it goes to support their larger community.”
Only “to support their larger community?” What a bunch of baloney! max really means.. to pay off their larger law suits. max knows very well that many orders have been hit very hard with having to pay out millions of dollars for protecting or hiding serial abusers. So when max talks about $$ going to support their larger community he is conveniently leaving out a crucial truth. Many orders are reaping the consequences of what has been sown through many years of disobedience or from choosing to really *dumb down* the Catholic faith, aka a failure to teach or spiritual neglect.
I doubt that any of the persons responsible for the purchase of the Crystal Cathedral or responsible for the interior design would ever hire a consultant based on their ability to oversee a great lack of detail or a great lack of fine traditional embellishments in their own personal mansions.
You know that they would never PAY MORE $$ to GET LESS of an effect for themselves or visiting friends but they deemed it fitting to choose this expensive lack of detail while sacking God’s House.
Catherine max told us on a few past comments that he was changing his name to Mackz. Just so you know, I don’t know if you knew that. Now Mackz who oversees the consultants work? To make sure he stays faithful….just asking.
The Blessed Virgin Mary and Her Son, Adorable Infant Jesus, desire peace and for all to love one another. The badge of Christian discipleship is love for the others.
“The badge of Christian discipleship is love for the others.”
Yes… And I sure would have loved to have seen YOU wear that badge and not throw Father Marcel Guarnizo under the bus by planting a misleading story.
The Betrayal of Father Guarnizo by Phil Lawler… Father Z’s blog
“The betrayal of Father Guarnizo sends a chilling message to every priest in Washington: that if he is zealous in defending the Eucharist, he cannot count on support from the archdiocese. Since other radical activists will no doubt follow Barbara Johnson’s example, we can expect another test case soon. Let’s hope and pray that the next time, the archdiocese will show at least as much solicitude for the Eucharist (not to mention the accused priest) as for the critics of the Church.”
No one, including the consultant, has referred to the subject as a church.
Are we missing something here?
He just oversaw renovation of the Church of Nativity in Leawwod, Kansas that I call the “Renovaton & Desecration” of a church not even 25 years old. The color palet was a riot of colors that didn’t work well together, vision of the table is blocked for people sitting in the first three rows on the right side, and tiny stations of the cross were so small they appear to be an afterthought. He introduced 8-feet high angels to tie the front of the church to the back making them dominant visuals rather than complimentary visuals. The furniture in the sanctuary is placed in such a way that when Eucharist Ministers approach the altar they look like rats in a maze as they must make four quick turns. Some of his ideas are good but overall I think he is very mediocre at what he does.
Eucharist Ministers should be blocked from the Altar.
Relax you guys, There is a ” myriad of possibilities” a community can exprole in ‘discovering’ the depths of the Roman rite… Be open minded here
Do you not understand the infinate ways any local community can express itself?
Let’s hope the Bro. William remembers his responsibility is first and foremost to sacred Tradition, i.e., a liturgy in continuity with living Tradition.
IMO, we should do away with liturgical consultants. The great architects of yesteryear, even if they were not all saintly, were as much orthodox theologians as architects. We need great artists who are steeped in the Faith. For all the corruption of the Renaissance popes, those fellows really knew how to draw on the talents of artists to promote beautiful buildings dedicated to the glory of God. Nowadays, we’re stuck with corrupt cardinals who hire pagan architects who build big barns that succeed as testaments to a legacy of hubris and shame.
It’s high time we stop the charlatans from conning people with their false vision of the Mass. Give us cruciform churches that respect and embody the Divine Liturgy.
Thank God we have a good and holy pope who has not forgotten the Catholic story, a legacy of true, good and beautiful art, architecture, music, theology and liturgy. We, all, should pay attention to the vision to which the Vicar of Christ is calling us.
Brother Woeger said, regarding the poor, “The poor don’t live on bread” and that they too will appreciate all that the Cathedral offers in the way of the arts available to all. Perhaps he should share his perceptions with the poor and see if they might rather have the bread.
This doesn’t seem to square with with Pope Francis’ views on the poor. I would be interested in hearing his views on food versus the arts.
Criminy, most of you people need to lighten up. And most of you have no clue about what Br. Woeger does, or has been hired to do for Orange at this beast of a structure. Br. Woeger is one of the best in the world at what he does, and he works on the cheap, compared to anyone close to his abilities, which span both the modern and the ‘traditional’ restorative. He consults the architects on ensuring that the space (traditional or modern) is focused on the Liturgy, and not on the space itself. Remember – the structure and appointments of the building are not the faith.