The following pastor’s letter came in a Feb. 27 email with this note:
“Please do not disclose my identity if you decide to
use the above in an article. My reason for sending the message is that I believe Archbishop Cordileone has a right to know which priests are against him.”
Dear Parishioners of St. Stephen,
Our local Catholic Church has been in the news lately.
I wish to share with you two comments:
1) St. Stephen parish is proud of our Altar Girls. The Second Vatican Council in the 60’s moved our Church into a new era which helped us appreciate and join the liberation and inclusive movements which characterized our culture.
For one San Francisco parish to choose to limit altar service to males only is not just their business. It hurts us all when it argues an archaic theology which discredits the value of girls’ service in the Church. It is an unhealthy and out-of-date theology as well as a serious misunderstanding of liturgy which draws an intrinsic connection between altar serving and priesthood. St. Stephen parish will not only continue to invite girls as valued altar servers but thanks all our servers for their dedication and selfless service to our community.
2) We also support and trust the teachers in our Catholic schools. They are a special gift to our faith. Our Catholic Church has the right and responsibility to insure that the Catholic faith is taught and upheld in our Catholic schools. I believe our administrators and teachers are already doing a wonderful job of doing just that, and are highly sensitive to the mission and teachings of our church.
However, the Catholic faith encompasses a vast and comprehensive body of teaching: respect toward and promoting the dignity of all people, especially those left out, promoting economic opportunity for those marginalized by race or poverty, supporting care for immigrants, resisting the death penalty, combating the growing prevalence of gun violence, battling economic inequality: these and many other social teachings of our church are also part of the body of Catholic ethical teaching.
A pedagogy of persuasion along with mutual and open dialogue are the best avenues for teaching the faith. For the growth and development of faith should be a priority. We know from a vast amount of research and publications that authentic faith development moves through stages away from mere adherence to doctrinal statements to genuine encounter with the mystery of a living God. In a pluralistic culture as ours that values diversity and honest searching, it seems to me that persuasive dialogue and personal encounter are the best routes for faith development. I sense our Holy Father Francis is teaching that to us as well.
Here is what Fr. Harris, president of St. Ignatius High School, wrote in response to the new language proposed for the faculty and staff handbooks for the four Catholic High Schools administered by the Archdiocese: “We are heartened by Pope Francis, whose recent comments and efforts have pointed in the direction of inclusion rather than exclusion, of avoiding judgment and of looking at theological ideas in light of lived experience. We trust the working of the Spirit through the Church–meaning the faithful as well as the religious leadership–that asks us to seek continually to understand and apply what we believe.”
Wishing you and your family God’s continued blessings,
I am sincerely yours in Christ
Father Paul F. Warren
Michael Vorris calls the modern church, THE CHURCH OF NICE. The church of nice, is NOT nice. It is mean and nasty, vicious and ugly. This Saturday was the 50th anniversary of Pope Paul VI saying a vernacular Mass at All Saint’s Church in Rome. That event was the beginning of the end. His sermon was double talk, praising the beauty of Latin, and yet proclaiming how wonderful the Mass will be when everyone can understand it. By his foolish actions, especially by tampering with the Mass, the church has been in a tail spin, loosing altitude, until she crashes. Altar girls are just one problem with the Novus Ordo Masses. When the girls appear, the boys disappear. It is just like the lectors and extra-ordinary ministers. Men ONLY were supposed to be the norm, but now women are allowed, so the men are quitting these liturgical function faster than replacements can be found. The sissy boys are promoted in the seminaries, and most of the truly devoted and manly seminarians flee. This sadly, is NOT fiction. It is the truth. Because of Vatican II everything has become relative, so there is neither black or white, cold or hot. Grey and tepid are what is being promoted. These liberal churches might be around in twenty years, if they are lucky. Meanwhile, conservative and traditional parishes will grow because they are GOD centered and not man centered. The FSSP, Society of Christ the King, and the SSPX are increasing, and they acquire new foundations every year. The main stream church, however, is rapidly disintegrating, and these facts cannot be disproven.
Fr. Karl .. As just an ordinary Catholic in an ordinary parish what your’e saying doesn’t reflect our experience at all. For example at mass this Sunday we had an adult woman altar server, an altar boy and a girl. The boy was more experienced and was coaching the girl with discreet hand signs and nods. The lector was a man. Our priests are very manly and not what you call “sissy boys” at all. I think you have may seen some very unusual parishes but most are probably just like mine.
Father Karl you know very well that in that part of the world, there is a lot of defiance to true Catholicism. The SSPX is wrong too….Father I need to correct you in that error of yours to even mention them and to use the term the Church of nice….do you realize how you sound?
Abecca, Father states, “The FSSP, Society of Christ the King, and the SSPX are increasing, and they acquire new foundations every year.”
This statement of Father Karl is completely true. While you may not like the reality of that statement, it does not make Fr. Karl incorrect. Your misguided admonishment makes you sound rather prejudiced and unwilling to face the facts that even Rome recognizes.
Perhaps this video from EWTN will give you the perspective better suited to aiding Mother Church:
The Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons are increasing every year too. Does that speak to the veracity of their beliefs?
Anonymous point well made.
I understand you’ve made a god of certain individuals, Anonymous,but your slavish devotion doesn’t render those individuals anymore authority than zero save for their own charges.
So please stop attempting to distract from the real fruits to be had from remaining true to Catholic tradition and the fullness of the Catholic Faith, at least in as much as your posts to me. Your stubbornness in devaluing that which is Catholic and what has always been Catholic is not flattering or a testimony to love of Holy Mother Church. Quite the opposite.
Anonymous, It means they have principles that they stick to.
Not wishy washy sometimes this, sometimes that;
and not Relativism where there is no clear line between right and wrong within their Faith.
Confusion and relativism keep good people away.
The only point well made, Abeca, is that you and Anonymous support each other in your attempts to misdirect people from what is plain even to Rome itself. And only out of a personal bias, not what the Church actually teaches.
That too is a turnoff that sends good people going elsewhere.
Time to start evangelizing *for* the Church by being honest about what the Church really teaches and having Faith, not the desire to be right – even when it comes to attempting to school a holy priest like Fr. Karl.
Ann Malley, your posts are absurd. I cannot even imagine what motivated you to say such derisive lies. Spend more time with the Bible and the Catechism. Lent is a good time to go to confession, too. Praying for you.
You simply make one inane comment after another, “Anonymous”. ISIS/ISIL/Muslims everywhere are also increasing, but that does not mean that they have the True Faith.
The institutional Catholic Church is pretty much over. Even where the N.O. survives, it is much more Prostestant than Catholic in many beliefs — just look at the outcry in SF when the Archbishop did nothing more than recite the Catholic Catechism to the spoiled and largely pagan high school faculty, staff and students.
There are always heretics, “Anonymous” and will always be such. Mere numbers are not the point; the Truth is the main point. Curiously, Traditional orders, including the SSPX, are greatly growing. If any of us live that long, Europe and the USA will be more influenced by Tradition than ever within the next 25 years are there will be more new Traditional priests, sisters, and those that attend their (growing) churches (while the N.O. are tearing down their churches and consolidating their parishes).
I am sorry that you having such a crisis of Faith. I will pray for you.
I uphold Tradition. I also uphold tradition. The SSPX is not a traditional order. It is not an order at all, if by an order you mean a religious order where vows are taken. I pray for the increase of the FSSP and the Institute of Christ the King (also not religious orders in that same sense) and for all other priests and religious who uphold Tradition and/or tradition. Most traditionalists remain with the Church. I see that you are under temptation and I will pray to the Blessed Mother for you.
Holy Mary, help the helpless, strengthen the fearful, comfort the sorrowful, pray for the people, plead for the clergy, intercede for all women consecrated to God; may all who keep your sacred commemoration experience the might of your assistance.
Mother of Grace, Mother of Mercy, shield us from the enemy and receive us at the hour of our death. Amen.
Major OOOPS!
Not Tradition and/or tradition. Always Tradition. That is Sacred.
Chris you need to stop promoting relativism….go by absolute truth. You are promoting relativism by promoting groups who are schismatic and or heretical!
Then go by absolute truth, Abeca. Your continued assertions that a certain group is in schism are erroneous and misleading.
Ann Malley when you said that I support another…you neglect the truth, I only side by Jesus. My comments are not formed by anonymous nor YFC nor from you but are formed by the truth taught to me by Christ and His church, That is who I honor as best as I know how. Its too bad you don’t get it. You are the one MISLEADING souls.
According to Cardinal Muller, the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (Pope Benedict’s job before he was elected Pope-back when he was known as God’s Rottweiller) the SSPX is in schism.
The definition of schism in the CCC is:
schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”
…show me the official pronouncement, Anonymous.
They don’t do that, Ann Malley. Nice try.
Ann MALLEY, is correct in asking for documentation. – More posters should be doing this.
People can not go around making statements that they can not prove Far too often postings are hearsay or false opinions.
This is the most recent OFFICIAL provable statement from the Vatican (Pope Benedict regarding SSPX).
” In order to make this clear once again: until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers – even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty – do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church.”
end of paragraph 3.
https://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/letters/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20090310_remissione-scomunica.html
Ann Malley, some (but not all) Protestant Faiths are increasing as well.
So is the Muslim Faith.
….but Protestants and Muslims aren’t Catholic. The Society is Catholic, Eddie.
Abeca its ashame you have thrown you lot in with the SSPX haters, they are not wrong despite what you, YFC Anon and the rest have to say….To think you are on the same side as YFC is really, really sad….The good Father sounds truthful, just because you deny the crisis doesn’t mean there is not one
Canisius i am on the side of truth. Just because you interpret things illfully and drag YFC with it doesnt make it so. Your arguements are all irrelavant. Father is wrong in the way he has expressed himself here. How long have you been a practicing Catholic?
Abeca, you are precisely negating and passing over your own ill interpretation of Father Karl’s speaking the truth. Why would you interpret with such ill will toward a good priest speaking truthfully? Why would you put your own personal and erroneous judgement above that which is true?
Your assertion that Father is wrong in how he has expressed himself shows that you believe yourself to be the authority on what is correct – that is neither humble, Abeca, nor true.
Now you resort to the tactics of asking Canisius how long he has been a practicing Catholic? Really? Then you proceed in your next post to assert that you mean no offense even while being offensive. Offensive to the truth and the ability of others – even those within the Church by your own criteria – who are capable of making rationale observations.
Maybe you should write a letter of concern to the Pope correcting him for allowing the Dominicans of Fanjeaux to process formally in the Vatican… and for allowing a Vatican representative to say that the SSPX are Catholic on EWTN.
You may perceive this as an offense, but you may want to leave discussions regarding the SSPX alone for you do nothing but spout erroneous statements. Do what you prescribe and ‘keep your focus on Christ’ instead of seeking to correct regarding subjects you don’t understand and refuse to learn about objectively.
Your setting yourself up as your own authority is a dangerous thing…something that is leading you away from Jesus.
Ann Malley you often set your self above what the church teachings, so you are one to talk. Ann Malley I have a full plate today, when I have time to read your long posts, I will see if I can. How about that tea. Are you in San Diego area or Orange County area? Both places I hang out often…..even in Simi Valley area….most often
Not as long as you,, and certainly long enough to recognize modernist lies …you sided with the liar YFC..not Truth
Abeca, you may want to consider switching whatever tea you’re drinking. It has muddled your senses and whatever authentic Catholic sensibilities you had back in 2012. Sharing the brew with others before testing may also end in lawsuit – for many don’t take kindly to having their intellect altered to the point of oblivion regarding their own bad behavior. (IOW: “…do you realize how you sound?”)
Fr. Karl’s statements are well said and you’ll just have to accept that reality despite the full plate that doesn’t seem quite that full. Otherwise you wouldn’t be posting.
Abeca in the future QUOTE the official Church position on the SSPX
only so that Ann Malley can NOT legitimately attack you.
Use the link on the Vatican web site as posted.
Fr. Karl, needs to correct his statement to be in line with the Official position of the Church regarding the SSPX.
And he should NEVER lump the SSPX who holds no canonical position in the Church, with the FSSP which does.
…Joyce, if honest dialogue and discussion is considered ‘attack’ then no OFFICIAL position is going to aid anyone.
That said, if the OFFICIAL position taken by Pope Francis after the October ’15 synod says that pastors can give Holy Communion to those divorced and remarried Catholics without benefit of annulment and/or a vow to live as brother/sister, what then would Cardinal Burke’s ‘resistance’ be? It would be resistance against an OFFICIAL position of the Church.
The lack of logic represented by many who consider themselves defenders of the Faith is so woefully absent. As is the proper understanding of what constitutes attack.
As for Fr. Karl, Joyce, you should try understanding that he is not the only Catholic priest in good standing who holds such a view. Perhaps you should listen to Cardinal Baldiserri and not be so shocked by diverging opinions – unless the only shocking to be done is when a cleric opts for Catholic tradition in belief and practice.
You are no arbiter of what should ‘NEVER’ be done.
Joyce I have on other articles. Ann is like YFC, they have been told where they are in error. Nothing new under the sun. They just love to bicker and cause more confusion. Plus also posted canonical law which explains why one cant participate in their sacraments. Ann preaches that they are Catholic, they are not. Well you know the rest.
That works as long as people know what saying they have no canonical status in the Church means.
And if they know what it means that the priests exercise no legitimate ministry in the church.
It mean they are not a part of the Catholic Church (even if they say they are.)
It means that if their priests are offering the sacraments illegitimately they are incurring a latae sententiae excommunication.
It is the Pope and even those at the Vatican who ‘preach’ ‘they’ (the Society) are Catholic, Abeca. Write to Rome if you do not like that reality.
That said, if you do not like bickering, then cease and desist when a holy priest comments regarding the reality of the crisis within the Church and expresses his ‘educated’ opinion on what constitutes a valid necessity.
But there is nothing new in you believing you know more than just about anyone … including Church hierarchy.
Ann Malley, you have ignored all of our requests to have an honest discussion. Bringing up the Synod and anticipating a problem is not an honest tactic. You like to invoke the name of Cardinal Burke yet you refuse to worship with him in the Catholic Church.
As someone who lived many years in an irregular marriage, you may have strong feelings about communion for those in irregular marriages. But instead of witnessing to the sin of irregular marriage, you are trying to weaken people’s faith in the Church.
Your continued rudeness to faithful Catholics who uphold the Faith and the Church is appalling. The lies and distortions that you tell about any who support those who are faithfull to the Church is equally repugnant. You may be loyal to the SSPX; they don’t care enough about you to even tell you the truth as witnessed by the many SSPX sources that you have provided to us. You may love the SSPX, but the SSPX does not love you. Jesus does and His Holy Church does. Listen to Him and to those He has placed in authority not those who rebel against and brawl against His Church.
Wait wait wait one doggone minute.
I quote “Ann Malley says:
March 13, 2015 at 11:47 am
…Joyce, if honest dialogue and discussion is considered ‘attack’ then no OFFICIAL position is going to aid anyone.
That said, if the OFFICIAL position taken by Pope Francis after the October ’15 synod says that pastors can give Holy Communion to those divorced and remarried Catholics without benefit of annulment and/or a vow to live as brother/sister”…
You are speculating about a FUTURE “official” position in order to claim that truly tried and true official positions should be ignored today?
Do you really think that you have any different position, Ann Malley, than anyone who would claim that same sex marriage should be sacramentalized by the Church, or that the death penalty should be permitted, or that Christ was only a human being?
The only brawler here is you, Anonymous, and those intent on reading what they’d like to see/read instead of what is actually written. Again, that is ‘the’ problem.
It would seem Fr. Warren is among those who prefer to interpret at will and mislead. But then misleading and distracting and attempting to assert an authority that isn’t there is not ‘honest’ dialog, Anonymous, despite how you’d like to interpret your posts. Your continued obtuseness in this area is not precisely rude, just tiresome, and not indicative of loving anyone save your own interpretations. (And perceived superiority because you follow +Burke.)
Jesus does love His Holy Church. And that is why She should be protected, Anonymous. And while you may not like it, Cardinal Burke will resist any OFFICIAL move that opposes what the Church has always taught. What Christ taught regarding marriage. And again, lest you forget, even St. Joan of Arc was burned as a heretic – that was the OFFICIAL charge. (I wonder if you would have called those lamenting her being burned as repugnant and appalling.)
So while you misread loyalty to Our Lord and Holy Mother Church and Truth as loyalty to the Society – your knee-jerk watch word – you may want to check your own repugnant refusal to look to your own lies and distortions of which you are decidedly guilty.
I hope you do stand with Cardinal Burke, however, all the way if need be.
…the doggone minute, YFC, is holding the line at what the Church has always taught, not inventing something wholly different as you are attempting with ‘same-sex’ marriage. And no, nobody is advocating ignoring an official position. But rather stating that that which is ‘official’ is often that which is politically expedient, not necessarily based on what the Church has always taught.
That said, I do not ignore the official position of the Church. For it is precisely official ambiguity that is aiding and abetting the German Bishop’s conference in their proposed machinations to do what they will in direct opposition to the sanctity/indissolubility of marriage.
Again, CCc 675 comes to play. No doubt the proposed solution mentioned therein will be official – otherwise it would be no mystery of iniquity.
God bless.
Ann Malley, I stand with JESUS, in HIS ONE HOLY CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC CHURCH. So does Cardinal Burke, Cardinal Burke will resist those who try to change the discipline of the Church because it would bring confusion. He will NEVER separate himself from the Church; he will NEVER disobey the Pope; he will NEVER establish chapels without the permission of the local ordinary; he will NEVER incur excommunication by saying a Mass illegitimately.
And if he did, I would not follow him because he would be in mortal sin. Mortal sin is mortal sin. It does not become grace because you prefer it..
You are trying to create division in the Church, whether it is from an evil intent or due to your own self-deception..
1 Corinthians 3:1-4 But I, brethren, could not address you as spiritual men, but as men of the flesh, as babes in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food; for you were not ready for it; and even yet you are not ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh, and behaving like ordinary men? For when one says, “I belong to Paul,” and another, “I belong to Apol’los,” are you not merely men?
THERE IS ONE HOLY CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC CHURCH. It is the one headed by Pope Francis. This is the CATHOLIC FAITH AS IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN TAUGHT.
CCC675 talks about the persecution of the Church. It talks about the great apostasy. It talks about how many will leave the Church because of a final trial. There IS NOTHING in it that says there will be an official act of the Church that causes this. Your belief is paranoid and the stuff of motion pictures and novels. You cannot hide out in a state of mortal sin thinking you will be protected from error in the Church. The faithful remnant are those who do not leave no matter what., There is no where else to go.
John 6:67-69 Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also wish to go away? Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”
Ann Malley, God bless you. Is it too threatening for you to consider that the chapel you go to might not be a part of the Catholic Church? Is it too anxiety-provoking for you to understand that the priests who seem so holy and faithful to the Faith are really in mortal sin and excommunicated?
Do you understand that this is according to Canon Law?
Do you think Canon Law can be put aside because of some perceived crisis in the Church?
When there is a storm with a strong wind, one needs to put their roots down stronger. May the Lord reveal to you the errors that you are making and believing. May He show you the harm that you are doing to His Body and to your family.
This is for you, Anonymous:
CCC 675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.
*************
And the proposal put forward by +Kasper seems very much a solution to a ‘problem’ at the cost of truth. That’s why +Burke said he would resist such a proposal should it be approved at the upcoming Synod. And may you begin to read the signs of the times.
No offense Canisius but you deny the truth about the SSPX….I do not deny anything, its a shame that you only view things through the eye’s of anger. Just keep your focus on Christ and His promises and truths, hopefully that will lead you away from schismatic groups.
Worry about you and leave this conversation with Father and I. I usually agree with him, he is solid in many ways but some of his comments do concern me. If he is a holy priest, like I think he is, then he will welcome my comments and view them as done in charity. Its all part of God’s plan towards humility and everyone’s call to be holy!
Anger is a great gift that has served me my entire lift, it purifies and reveal lies..it judges, it accuses and make right what is wrong… you should try it.. I know I do
I don’t detest clarity. I just don’t have spiritual cataracts like some of you who never find clarity and damn the world to hell because of it.
Wow Ann Malley says “you may want to consider switching whatever tea you’re drinking”….since this dialogue is done in her style, I prefer not to dialogue with her nastiness ,any further. It would be foolish to do so.
So Ann Malley you are wrong and Canisius you are wrong in your personal attacks….dialogue better if you want my attention! . Why even bother talking to two very prideful and stubborn people. I ask everyone to pray for Father Karl too……Its too bad Father Karl…you could be helpful in fighting the good fight but you have also been affected by schismatic views, I think its the lack of really knowing the faith. Father I hope you study the CCC and the bible and encourage others to do so as well. I don’t know where you stand on that. I say this respectfully not like how Ann and Canisius like to turn it into by adding malice. My comments where done out of charity and concern…nothing more…whatever other malice tone that they insinuated, that is how their minds work, only through their eye’s they see malice intent because their hearts are cold to the truth.
yes Anger can be a gift but because we are human, we can also take that anger and turn it into our own, pride can disrupt whatever purpose true righteous anger needs to go…..remember you once said that you were addicted to porn…..our Lord is no where near any place of porn or sodomy, leaving a person vulnerable to the snares of the devil , like his puppet, he will use whatever weakness a person has. So one must be careful and always approach with humility, I admire your moral convictions in Christ, I have always expressed that here about you Canisius and even stood up for you in the past, but that does not mean that I stand by you in everything that is not from our Lord. God bless you and protect you as you continue to unfold more of His truths. Take care…..
Wow, Abeca!!!! Just WOW!!!! How dare you tell a Priest, Fr. Karl, that he has a “lack of really knowing the faith.” You, Abeca, are the most prideful poster here on CCD! You are beyond words! I’m speechless! You better look into your own pride! You say that you, “say this with, “respectfully.” Really? Very insulting, condescending, and disrespectful!
Keep on wowing RR….when you stop twisting my intentions and molesting my charity, we can talk.
A good reflection on your parT is needed, May God help you during this time, your on a blind spot and a weakness that you find yourself in. You only see pride that is deeply rooted within yourself. Only prideful people would not see true charity right in front of them. Just your own words describe deeply rooted pride for example “Very insulting, condescending, and disrespectful!” You are insulted and only a deeply prideful person who lacks to see true charity, feels always insulted, its a personal thing for you because you support forms of schism.
Abeca: ….”when you stop twisting my intentions and molesting my charity, we can talk.” Well, Abeca, then why did you continue to write something to me after you had just wrote that you didn’t want to talk? Just a little flip-flop? I wowed because YOU wowed first in your post to Ann Malley. You keep on wowing too! No, Abeca. This was NOT pride on my part. You didn’t insult me and it didn’t have to do with anything prideful on my part. You insulted a priest and told him that he didn’t know the faith! Really?? WOW! Don’t make this about me. Flip-flop! What you said had NO other meaning except to be insulting to Fr. Karl for saying something that YOU didn’t agree with. This is NOT charity, Abeca!! This is nothing but a lack of charity, communication skills, and tact. A truly charitable person would NEVER insult anyone like you do, and especially a holy priest. You have got a lot of nerve! YOU need to get off your soapbox and start looking into your own pride in yourself. Only a prideful person wouldn’t see charity in this post to you from me!
There is no understanding, RR, just the repetition of what one has been told. That’s often what facilitates a flip-flop or looking to the inconsistency of what one is actually saying.
God bless.
Exactly, Ann Malley!
Because many of us disagree with the position of SSPX does not make us “SSPX haters”. It merely means we disagree with them. And it happens to be that at least for the last 40 years + or -, the hierarchy has agreed with us. Ad hominem attacks on us isn’t a particularly good way to get your point across. I continue to say that people who spew vitriol in an attempt to make themselves look superior are probably doing the entire church a disservice, regardless if you are operating from the left pews or the right pews.
Then you and Abeca should reconsider spewing the vitriol. As it stands one of you seems to have no clue what the Society position is, but blindly lashes out from a desire to be right, and the other, understands the Society position enough to know it must be quashed for fear that the Church – all of it by way of influence – may actually venture back toward the transmission of doctrine. Kind of like +Cordelione is trying to do. God give Him strength to stand fast!
The old line that hard truths will drive people away is a LIE, a lie made visible by all the groups mentioned by Fr. Karl. By their fruits you shall know them.
And you’re right, YFC, much of the Church hierarchy has been leaning toward teaching something other than what the Church actually holds to be true – hence the pronouncement out of Germany regarding the ‘pastoral’ steps they plan to take and the roving heterodoxy of many a misspent shepherd. Hence the article about Father Paul F. Warren. The HEAD of a parish…. and perchance a man after your own heart.
So while Abeca asks others, “…do you know how you sound?” She seems to miss that she sounds like an enabler to the precise form of imprecision and uncertainty and ambiguity that you have been stumping for here on CCD.
Thank you yet again for making your true colors clearer than daylight. That helps tremendously.
Ann Malley, what we hope for is reconciliation with SSPX, not to crush it. But the SSPX must accept the teaching of Vatican II, and it refuses. That is not vitriol to say that, just saying what people in Rome and in Econe stipulate to. However, somehow, by repeating what everyone agrees is the status quo, I’m a “hater”. Go figure.
Yes and this is the same hierarchy that was involved in conspiracy to hide criminal gay pederast priests moving them from one parish to another.
…then the Vatican needs to get on board with what the documents of VII actually teaches, YFC. (Pastoral interpretation run amok… and even that which is running afoul of what the Church actually teaches is the problem here.) There is enough confusion about that with regard to those who are supposedly in ‘full communion’. Reference again the German Bishop’s conference.
That is why your vitriol against clarity or even the request for clarity is not surprising. Abeca’s vitriol in that regard is just plain misguided and sad.
So Ann Malley, your problem with myself WAS that I was a “hater” of SSPX trying to crush it. NOW, we hear that your new problem with the Vatican (and presumably myself) is that it/we need/s to “get on board with [what] VII actually teaches”. Then you throw overboard the entire notion of pastoral practice. Then you go back to your constant “confusion” refrain and your own personal confusion…no…misunderstanding of what “full communion” actually means. And then you offer a vague reference to a conference of bishops without actually stating your issue with them.
And you think the Church lacks clarity? Really?
I think you just hate the Church, and will use any combination of words you need to use to defame it. Spiritual shrapnel if you will.
…it is apparent that you detest clarity, YFC, when it comes to what the Church actually teaches, be it pre or post VII.
Thanks again for being very clear about what you do like (causing confusion) and about what you do not like – what the Church actually teaches. As for shrapnel, you defame yourself. And yet, despite your pursuits to do the same regarding Church teaching, you have now power.
All need to become more current on the SSPX, a group of many wonderful Catholic priests and bishops (no, this blogger does not belong to the SSPX, but admires them nonetheless).
The SSPX is not in schism (but the entire German Church is certainly heading that way). Its priest lack a juridically sanctioned role at this point, but its masses are licit masses and “count” for Sunday (but some sacraments are unavailable to mainline Catholics, again for “jurisdictional” reasons only, as the ordination of a SSPX priest is a full and proper — more than proper — ordination).
Finally, at a recent pilgrimage of girls educated by the Dominican of Fanjeaux sisters, a very kind commentary was offered by Bp. Juan Arrieta, Secretary to the Pontifical Council of Legislative Texts. He spoke of the SSPX as Catholics, who hearts are in Rome, and their separation could be solved with “trust”. Watch the YouTube video on Rorate Caeli.
The SSPX is 600 priests strong now — real men, real Catholics, real priests. And, the SSPX, as a matter of its enormous faith, is constructing a massive new seminary in Virginia (outside of Charlottesville). They are a beating heart of the True Faith. And, no, they do not need to accept all of the outcomes of Vatican II (which is different from the Council itself). It is the Church which must address the many planned “ambiguities” and “time bombs” which the faithless fathers planted in some of the Council’s documents.
Like I said before…the situation with the SSPX, its problematic, as we can see here, by the witness of those who support that group….you think that the abuses we have in our church is the only issue, think again…its also schismatic and heretical groups too…don’t be fooled by thinking that they are really Catholic….they may look Catholic but they are not.
St. Christopher says SSPX is “A group of many wonderful priests and bishops”. For the record, there are 3 or 4 bishops of SSPX. I say 3 or 4 because one “wonderful” SSPX bishop had to be expelled from the Society because so many were appalled at his insistant holocaust denialism. Well, it didn’t help that the bishop who ordained him died, and he was in open revolt against his current Superior. So the holocaust denialist scandal only gave the Superior a good reason to expel him.
Anyhow, the 4 “wonderful” bishops were ALL appointed without permission of Rome. Their “wonderful” ordination was pre-warned by the Vatican to be against the wishes of the Pope and would be a schismatic act. This was preceded by, and also followed by, the “wonderful” priestly ordinations of many men: ALL of whom the Vatican warned they were not supposed to do.
So if disobedience to Rome is what constitutes “wonderful”, then certainly the SSPX has many “wonderful” priests and 3 “wonderful” bishops.
Interesting how Canisius brought up how priests were moved around. Well a while ago i posted facts about how SSPX tried to cover up their own priests too. They moved them too. I posted the facts. Because they didnt want to cause scandal they really are good at hushing those facts. Its a good thing that their own members exposed it and gave the facts.
Ann Malley 3/10 at 4:04 PM writes, “And you’re right, YFC, much of the Church hierarchy has been leaning toward teaching something other than what the Church actually holds to be true –” Ann, Malley, You know perfectly well I did not say that. If you misspoke, please correct the record.
YFC if you want to be in good graces too then denounce your promotion of gay ideologies. You want to speak for the church but when you defend lifestyles against God and His natural law, you come off like a hipocrate. Reject that part because those are grave sins. Very grave. Honor God and His church in that regard, then it is then that you can correct Ann Malley and visa versa. Loving God and His church is seeking to honor our Lord in all. Its all or nothing.
The Pope must be joking !
When the MASS was in Latin, we all could understand it, no matter which Catholic Church we went to anywhere in the world.
We knew exactly what was going on.
Our own missals had the Latin on one page, and our own vernacular on the direct opposite page.
Now when we go to a Mass it could be in Spanish, Italian, Japanese, Vetnamise, Polish, German, Croation, etc, etc, etc, even within our own Country.
And because so many Priests do not follow the “General Instruction of the Roman Missal” – if you go somewhere other than your own parish today there is a good possibility you will not have a clue – what is going on for the most part.
A hodge podge, hit and miss now, rather than a spiritual experience that everyone could understand no matter where they went to Mass anywhere in the world.
Latin was a beautiful show of UNITY which has been lost for the most part.
That is TOTALLY AWESOME!
We just heard in yesterday’s Gospel reading that moneychangers who were selling religious goods in order to enter the temple invited the wrath of Jesus himself. He overturned the tables on those who thought they could charge a high price for access to the Temple of God. John’s Gospel, written after the temple was physically destroyed, says that if you destroy this temple, I will rebuild it in three days. The Temple, my friends, is the tomb of Jesus. By his death he destroys the temple. And through his death, he overturns the temple and those who enforce its entrances with tables selling offerings that only a few can afford on their own. By his resurrection, three days after the temple of his body is destroyed on the cross, he invites in all those who cannot afford the high price of redemption. We who surely cannot afford that price should usher in while we still can.
Please send this article to Abp Cordileone.
We know you support sodomy, YFC, so everything you do is geared that way.
But why do you support this Priest, in his direct disobedience to Pope Francis ?
This Priest does NOT encourage people to read the Bible or the Doctrine of the Faith (CCC), as instructed by Pope Francis.
Therefore he must not want people to know the True teachings of the Faith, but make up his own.
“….. let us ask ourselves if we have actually taken a few steps to get to know Christ and the truths of faith more,
by reading and meditating on the Scriptures,
studying the Catechism,
steadily approaching the Sacraments.” – Pope Francis , May 15, 2013.
YFC of course you would find this awesome….you are defiant to the natural law and geared towards following those who do the same in other areas just to suit your agendas! Repent! You do not know the faith when you support this type of defiance and the actual intention of V2, just because people from before V2 where defiant and used the council for their bad will, does not mean it is its origin. This defiance has been going on since the beginning of Christ’s church. Truly it feeds your disobedient appetite and feeds also those who hate the church and want it destroyed. I consider you part of that agenda. But Christ’s promises to us are solid! So smile all you want, Jesus wins in the end and those who remain faithful till the end will reap the rewards!
My confidence is in the Lord and His promises, not on man made theories and disobedience! Humanity are flawed but Christ is perfect. Also we are all sinners and can make mistakes, I’m sure like thie priest is, but with love we can correct him and hopefully he will be open to the truth. Its time that this is exposed because someone is praying for this priest, someone wants him to no longer be blinded by his views, he is given a chance, just like everyone else is.
When I was in Catholic school we learned that the only Catholic to sign the Declaration of Independence was John Carroll. At the signing, someone mocked him that with such a common name he wouldn’t be identified by the Crown so he Changed it to read “John Carroll of Carolton.” Fr. Warren obviously has the courage of his convictions to sign his name to his opinion in an open parish bulletin.. I really don’t see why whoever sent this in couldn’t do the same.
It is rather disingenuous to demand that the person who forwarded this information to Cal Catholic be named, since this will be an occasion for him/her to be purged from the parish enrollment (as happens often), dismissed from any parish committees he or she is on, suspended from any Eucharistic minister or lector activities or visitation of the sick, or actually have your employer contacted to suggest that one is a dangerous employee (this happened too, yes), and/or many other clever actions of punishment for daring to speak up.
Don’t assert this doesn’t happen: for having been identified as a “complainant”, even though one courteously (at least in those days) complained of serious violations in a certain Phoenix diocese to the chancery office, we are talking very serious violations that I cannot specify. As a result, a certain “Phoenix” person was prevented from working in prison visitation ministry any longer [but after all, it really isn’t about caring for other people: it’s about power and control over the “church” (small c)]. Another wonderful lady, now deceased, an award-winning catechism teacher of 3 plus decades, was “fired” from her job of so many years. There are so many more accounts: these are just two provided in the limited space allotted.
1) Altar Girls were not approved by Vatican II, they were approved by a special Indult at the request of the USCCB many years ago – when the Bernardin faction was still in power.
2) Liberation Theology violates the Catholic Faith, and this was not taught in Vatican II documents either.
“Thou shall not steal.” – GOD’s Commandment
“Thou shall not covet thy Neighbors goods.” – GOD’s Commandment.
CCC: ” 1885 The principle of subsidiarity is opposed to all forms of collectivism.
It sets limits for state intervention. It aims at harmonizing the relationships between individuals and societies.
It tends toward the establishment of true international order. ”
CCC: ” 2411 Contracts are subject to commutative justice which regulates exchanges between persons and between institutions in accordance with a strict respect for their rights.
Commutative justice obliges strictly;
it requires safeguarding property rights, paying debts, and fulfilling obligations freely contracted.
Without commutative justice, no other form of justice is possible.
One distinguishes commutative justice from legal justice which concerns what the citizen owes in fairness to the community,
and from distributive justice which regulates what the community owes its citizens in proportion to their contributions and needs. “
Thats correct thank you PAT. Someone needs to correct this priest, who ever is close to him and his parish. Everyone else write letters and also ccc the Pope.
There is nothing about liberation theology in the article. I think, since they are talking about altar girls, they are talking about women’s liberation. You may be too young to know what that is.
Thanks to this name-less parishioner who forwarded this pastor’s letter. Space limits here do not permit anywhere near a full response. A few thoughts:
1. Pastor Disobedience: This pastor obviously dislikes the Archbishop, and is disobedient to him. His disrespectful letter is an attempt to refute Abp. Cordileone’s earnest effort to reach out to those who have been ignored for decades by their prior bishops by not being taught the True Faith. The pastor “smell blood in the water” here senses that Abp. Cordileone is weakened by public oppostion (and Sam Singer), so he feels that he can, in a sense, “pile on”. He should be suspended and be directed by the Archbishop to publicly discuss the errors of his statement and to apologize to his parish (before being permitted to again say Mass).
2. Pastor Is In Error: Much literature exists describing that the “altar girl” circumstance is not Church law, was not dictated by Vatican II, and is the result only of an indult. The preference of the Church, and its stated law, is that altar servers be male. This was also re-stated many times by St. JPII and others. The pastor is making it seem that the Abp. (who he is really aiming at, not Fr. Illo) is disregarding Vatican II. Not so, and he should be called on this.
Othe points include (1) California does not have a separate Faith (2) the pastor and Fr. Harris need to be sternly rebuked by the Archbishop
Excuse me, but you are in error:
1a) No Pastor has acted in disobedience to the their bishop. Please provide any evidence that any bishop has required any pastor to act in any manner, and then declined to do so, and then we have a discussion.
1b) Pastors have responsibility for the souls in their care. If a bishop attempts, as this one has done, to distill the faith into a one-sided and incomplete creed, said pastor is within his rights to stand up for what the church as a whole has understood for centuries, including the proper role of sexuality, of conscience, and of the salvific nature of Christ’s sacrifice for all.
2) The fact that Vatican II did not require pastors to encourage female altar servers is a moot point. That is not what ecumenical counsels are about, and ecumenical counsels are not the final say on matters of church discipline. Complete Red Herring. That the Church and her hierarchy have forever separated the notion that altar servers are in some way mini-priests should serve for all the faithful to separate themselves from such nonsense.
YFC – All Priests are required to act 100% in conformance with Sacred Scripture and the Doctrine of the Faith (CCC). They are not allow to teach their own errors.
YFC – You are right about the Altar girls not being part of V II, but this Priest has no right to lie to the people in his Parish or insinuate that Altar girls are a part of V II.
YFC – 1b – Warren has an obligation to teach the entire Faith according to the CCC, not only those parts he personally deems appropriate.
And the proper role of sexuality is not sodomy or homosexual marriage that you support.
Christ said to: “Go and sin no more”, not keep sinning if you want to.
“Your Fellow Catholic”: Do you even read what you write before you post? Of course the pastor disrespected, and disobeyed his bishop. Abp. Cordileone gave express permission for Fr. Illo at Star of the Sea parish to use altar boys only. Fr. Warren says expressly that this is wrong, a direct affront to the Archbishop.
Further, Fr. Warren also gives a not-so-veiled reference, and criticism, of his bishop regarding his actions in imposing certain “morality clauses” at Catholic High Schools. His reference to Fr. Harris and to the Pope are nothing more than Fr. Warren saying, “here is my authority to do whatever I wish”. Fire him.
Additionally, a parish priest is not free to do whatever he wishes against his bishop. Your statement to that effect lacks any support (and none was cited).
You are wrong about the Church “understanding for centuries . . . the proper role of sexuality, of conscience, and of the salvific nature of Christ’s sacrifice for all.” Space does not permit much more, except to say that Christ said that he came “to give his life a redemption for many” (not “for all”). Mark 10:45.
Finally, your second point is complete nonsense. There is great debate about eliminating the “indult” provided by the Church for altar girls; no “red herring” here. Statistics have shown that boys increase as altar boys by over 450% when a bishop (who has the ultimate say) or pastor (usually a pastor can ban altar girls).
YFC does not care what he posts, as long as he supports anyone he thinks may further his goal of sodomy promotion which includes same sex marriage.
He is against anyone who teaches the truth as stated in the Bible and CCC.
YFC adores his mortal sins, – loves them more than God.
Stating that someone is in error from YFC beyond tragic.
It would be interesting to know where heretical Bishops and Priests went to Seminiary – so we could weed out bad Seminiaries.
If making change in Catholic elementary and high schools is controversial, wait until someone tries to take on the deeply entrenched muck in the seminaries.
I agree Dave N. But something needs to be done with many Seminaries.
The lack of formation – teaching the Doctrine of the Faith fully and accurately should be a huge topic with Pope Francis and his 2015 Synod.
Lack of education or bad education is the root of the problem.
We really need to be told what Seminaries each of the heretical Bishops and Priests went to.
Not many people care about teaching seminarians much about what the Church stands for, its Tradition, its True sacraments (instead of the made up new language of recent years). Not long ago, Bl. John XXIII wrote “Veterum Sapientia” (1962) directing that Latin, and some Greek, be taught in all Catholic seminaries.
Well, what a shock, the New Church power guys laughed this one off, just like they would laugh off “Humanae Vitae,” and will continue to do this until they are (1) dead, or (2) removed from power. Unfortunately, Francis feels right at home with these guys, people like Fr. Warren and Fr. Harris (priests that really know so much more than their bishops and prior popes).
Lesbian nuns and homosexual gatekeepers have had more to do with who gets to be a priest (within the past 30 years or so) than anyone. And, now, people erupt whenever someone actually says what the Faith holds on this or that issue, particularly on matters of sexual ethics and morality. Of course, young seminarians are terrified if they seek a Tradidional education and are offered Sociology 101. The bishop or Pope might kick them out of the place!!
SC ~ Here we go again with the lesbian nuns. Could you please show some citations that indicate there are a lot of lesbian nuns controlling seminary admissions? Thanks.
What a pitiful piffle of propaganda – calling for “A pedagogy of persuasion along with mutual and open dialogue…”
The Last Thing that the Campus Gaystapo Thought Police want is to get caught in open debate and exposed for the lying Misandrists so many are.
Those ‘teachers’ signing such Anti-Catholic Hate screeds are amongst the First to Censor any discussion Supporting the Wise Moral Teachings of the Church, let alone the rational reasonable logical fact based intellectually and morally solid foundations for them.
Most lack the intellectual capacity to argue their way out of a wet paper bag with a pair of scissors – and rely on browbeating Catholic Students in to Silence, or other forms of retaliation against the Truth spoken in School.
SB# 48 by Senator Mark “Kiddie Porn King” Leno – Forbids Any Factual information in the public schools “Reflecting Adversely” upon the Gaystapo Alliance / Misandry. No other views are treated like such sacred cows, and nobody is as Immune to Questioning as the Gaystapo.
The Catholic Church is next in line for such Silencing, lest Un-Good Ideas crop up there too.
This alone is a Fire Alarm for repetition of the book burnings the prior Homo-Nazi reich loved – starting with their first bonfire destroying the records of sexual depravity and pederasty amassed about the Homo-Nazi leadership itself.
Perhaps these teachers should band together in solidarity for values they truly share, like a left coast ‘Brinkin / Bean / Shanley / Grogan Tolerance Society’ – only smarmier.
Of course, McDermott claims many things he cannot prove, including the inability to debate by his opponents. Go to the public debates and the public sites dedicated to true debate. Or continue to castigate others for their failure to engage. Your choice, McDermott. Use obnoxious language, or use what knowledge God has given you to state your case.
McDermott please continue
Harpy Tales 2 U – Until they Bleat Again.
Remember – the Radical Homosex Harpies are not here to participate, but disrupt and destroy – which is the only real skill set they have.
Sooooo… Just Scroll past the Troll, nothing worth reading there anyway.
Accused paedophile priest arrested in US
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-112721/Accused-paedophile-priest-arrested-US.html
An accused paedophile priest (Paul Shanley) at the centre of a sex-abuse scandal in Boston that has engulfed Cardinal Bernard Law and the Vatican was arrested on tonight by police..
Cardinal Law, the senior U.S. Catholic Church prelate… documents revealed the cardinal supported Shanley even though he knew the priest was accused of sexually abusing children…
Shanley admitted to superiors that he raped and sodomized children, according to documents released in April under a court order.
The documents also showed that Shanley advocated sex between children and adults and that he was an early adherent of a group that later became the North American Man-Boy Love Association…
*BTW – Frisco’s beloved ‘beat poet’ Allen Ginsberg was a ‘nambla’ founder / supporter , along with Harry Hay and of course pals like ‘in-human-rights’ icons like Larry Brinkin & Terry Bean
SEE San Francisco’s Gay Icon Larry Brinkin Guilty of Felony Child Porn Possession: https://cnsnews.com/node/757449
&
HOMOSEXUAL HRC FOUNDER ARRESTED FOR RAPING 15-YEAR-OLD BOY
https://barbwire.com/2014/11/20/homosexual-hrc-founder-arrested-raping-15-year-old-boy/
I went to St. Stephen’s web site.
And sure enough, they do NOT encourage people to read the Bible and the Doctrine of the Faith (-“Catechism of the Catholic Church, second edition).
This allows the Priest and others to make up their OWN faith rather than teach the truth – his own beliefs which he said he wishes to apply.
* * * * * * And because he does NOT encourage this reading by all literates,
Fr PAUL F. WARREN is in DIRECT DISOBEDIENCE to Pope Francis,
Pope Benedict XVI, and Pope John Paul II.
POPE FRANCIS – “….. let us ask ourselves if we have actually taken a few steps to get to know Christ and the truths of faith more,
by reading and meditating on the Scriptures,
studying the Catechism,
steadily approaching the Sacraments.” – Pope Francis , May 15, 2013.
SAINT POPE JOHN PAUL II – ” The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved … and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine,
attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium.” (CCC pg 5)
POPE BENEDICT XVI – ” “In its very structure, the Catechism of the Catholic Church follows the development of the faith right up to the great themes of daily life.
On page after page, we find that what is presented here is no theory, but an encounter with a Person who lives within the Church.”
Pope Benedict XVI (Porta Fidei, Motu Proprio Data, starting with paragraph #11.)
MAC really? You can devine all that from a website?
Yes, because I read the web site in entirety before posting.
Try reading some time.
“I went to St. Stephen’s web site.” – So did I.
The web site has some theological errors.
And sure enough, they do NOT encourage literate people to read the Bible and the Doctrine of the Faith (-“Catechism of the Catholic Church, second edition).
This Priest does make up his OWN faith as he personally believes rather than teaching the Faith accurately.
And yes, he is disobedient to Pope Francis, in not encouraging people to read the Bible and the CCC.
Not to mention Pope Benedict, and Saint Pope John Paul II.
(Saint Pope John Paul II was canonized by Pope Francis.)
“….the CATECHISM has raised throughout the world, even among non-Christians,
and confirms its purpose of being presented as a full,
complete exposition of Catholic doctrine,
enabling EVERYONE to know
what the Church professes, celebrates, lives, and prays in her daily life.” – Pope John Paul II (CCC pg xiv)
I also suggest that WARREN re-read the Vatican II documents, because he has no clue what they state. He is just full of errors.
What religion did he say he was ?
What seminary did he go to ?
Unfortunately, people who do not know the Faith, will believe his heresy and baloney.
That is probably why he refuses to encourage people to obey Pope Francis in telling people to be “reading and meditating on the Scriptures,
studying the Catechism” at home.
MAC send this letter to those in charge, this priest is in defiance and does not know his faith well.
Father Paul F. Warren you are wrong to have written this letter. May you repent!
Leigh, I went to the website and I did not find the theological errors you claim are there. Could you please indicate where they are?
Also, could you show me where you see that the priest makes up his own faith, disobey Pope Francis and has no clue about Vatican II and is full of errors?
I am not finding whatever you are referring to.
I did not do the archived homilies because they are by a different priest. Was that where you found all this.
This Priest clearly disobeys Pope Francis – by NOT encouraging his literate Parish members to read both the Bible as well as the CCC at home.
Again, this is the directive of Pope Francis that WARREN is choosing to disobey:
” “….. let us ask ourselves if we have actually taken a few steps to get to know Christ and the truths of faith more,
by reading and meditating on the Scriptures,
studying the Catechism,
steadily approaching the Sacraments.” – Pope Francis , May 15, 2013.
and
“The Church never takes faith for granted, but knows that this gift of God needs to be nourished and reinforced so that it can continue to guide her pilgrim way”…..
“Read in this light, the prophetic text leads to one conclusion: we need knowledge, we need truth,
because without these we cannot stand firm, we cannot move forward. Faith without truth does not save, it does not provide a sure footing.”….. “These, then, are the four elements which comprise the storehouse of memory which the Church hands down: the profession of faith,
the celebration of the sacraments, the path of the ten commandments, and prayer. T
The Church’s catechesis has traditionally been structured around these four elements; this includes the CATECHISM of the CATHOLIC CHURCH, which is a fundamental aid for that unitary act with which the Church communicates the entire content of her faith: “all that she herself is, and all that she believes”. “ – Pope Francis (Encyclical Letter LUMEN FIDEI, 2013)
BETH and ALL THE OTHERS:
The Catholic Church does not require its members to read either the Bible or the CCC. It exhorts them to do so. Reading Scripture and learning Catholic doctrine are both enriched with indulgences.
Both your quotes are good. But you really offer no evidence that this priest has not encouraged his members to read the Bible and the Catechism. I do not think it is sinful if he hasn’t. If he encouraged them not to, it would be wrong. You should read CCC 2477-2478
Anonymous, you are wrong again.
Popes John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Francis have ALL asked us to read the CCC in “OFFICIAL” documents. Not merely off the cuff statements.
Ignoring the OFFICIAL clear and expressed direction of all 3 Popes is DISOBEDIENCE.
From the Magisterium (which includes the Pope) –
CCC: ” 133 The Church forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful. . . to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures.
Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ. ”
Also for official Church Documents directly from our Popes about the CCC read:
Pope Francis (Encyclical Letter LUMEN FIDEI, 2013)
Pope Benedict XVI (Porta Fidei, Motu Proprio Data, starting with paragraph #11.)
For more quotes from these 3 Popes about the CCC see:
“What Catholics REALLY Believe SOURCE”
https://whatcatholicsreallybelieve.com/
When a Pope or the Doctrine of the Faith (CCC) from the Magisterium – – “OFFICIALLY” – – – exhorts anything – Bishops and Priests must comply forthwith.
ALL must comply or they are not only disobedient but also schismatic.
CCC: 2089 “….SCHISM is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him. “
Anonymous that is incorrect…..I will tell you why. Because we can’t have the faith without the church and holy scriptures….you need both for the faith to contain the wholeness of the faith. We cant have our faith without one or the other…we need both. I hope I conveyed well.
This Priest is a LIAR. He does not follow Pope Francis.
POPE FRANCIS – “ The Church never takes faith for granted, but knows that this gift of God needs to be nourished and reinforced so that it can continue to guide her pilgrim way.” ….. “Read in this light, the prophetic text leads to one conclusion:
we need knowledge, we need truth, because without these we cannot stand firm, we cannot move forward.
Faith without truth does not save, it does not provide a sure Footing.”…..
“These, then, are the four elements which comprise the storehouse of memory which the Church hands down: the profession of faith, the celebration of the sacraments, the path of the ten commandments, and prayer. The Church’s catechesis has traditionally been structured around these four elements;
this includes the CATECHISM of the CATHOLIC CHURCH, which is a fundamental aid for that unitary act with which the Church communicates the entire content of her faith: “all that she herself is, and all that she believes”. “ – Pope Francis (Encyclical Letter LUMEN FIDEI, 2013).
So when is WARREN going to REPENT for his DISOBEDIENCE and teaching according to the Church of Warren,
and start encouraging literate persons in his parish to read both Sacred Scripture and also the CCC ? ? ? ? ?
This episode makes some great points – including ‘insights’ shared by the Shanley / Grogan gang – that being a ‘catholic priest’ is Easy Money – so long as you don’t take it seriously, or actually believe any of the stuff.
‘We’ have for so long presumed that the vows of Poverty / Chastity / Obedience taken by Priests were a sign of Faith and would be adhered to, because we have trouble believing someone would do so just to make (some) money and bugger (as many as possible) boys.
The Abuse of the Faithful by those without Faith is nothing new, but the Homo-Anal Mafia have taken isolated incidents and turned them in to a system – with constant recruiting in the ‘catholic’ schools – and anyone opposed to such Intrinsic Evil branded as ‘intolerant’.
To think – there was once a time when the Jesuits had great prestige as the Thinkers of the Church, and how poorly that reputation has been guarded and abused by the Gaystapo and their stooges:
SEE
THE VORTEX: GAY JESUITS
A gay Jesuit “outs” the order.
https://cmtvnews.com/2015/03/09/the-vortex-gay-jesuits/
Thanks for the link. Great video (as usual) by Michael Voris. Too much logic and reasoning, however, for standard progressive catholics (small “c”).
A friend of mine once belonged to an “inclusive” parish–i think most are these days– that did its best to outlaw hateful saint statues while at the same time bringing in every other religious symbol in the world, placing a picture of Buddha on the Christmas parish bulletin, etc. He told me that he felt the parish fit the freehand definition of limbo: ‘everyone’s happy but no one sees God’. In a parish not far from his, one zealous liturgical nazi pastor felt that the pious traditions of the church someone emanated from statuary and could re-infect a new generation that was supposed to have been exorcised of the bad old days. He was seen in the church basement smashing statues with a sledgehammer. Years later, the pieces were found in a pond on the property.
Often at times things get exposed for a reason, because of many faithful praying and being doers of His word, God is merciful and helps expose the flaws. Perhaps this priest is blinded by something he thinks is true, it is a charitable thing to do, is to inform him, persevere in doing so. No one said this life was going to be easy.
When someone acts in disobedience or defiance and may not know what they are truly doing, is it really a sin? But when out of charity he is told over and over, then that is when God will be the judge if that person is acting out of bad will.
Mercy for all sinners, mercy by charitably admonishing them. It is Jesus who will get in the hearts of the misinformed, of the mislead, of all sinners. Praise Be Jesus Christ for His mercy, we pray for His justice! Oh Lord give us your justice. Continue to empower your people of good will.
Turn this article over to Abp Cordileone.
He will inform the Priest of his errors.
However, it sounds like Warren, is not interested in learning. A fat head thinks he knows everything.
Abeca Christian, I am confused by your response. I have read this letter many times and I cannot find what you are calling disobedience or defiance.
Who is he disobeying and defying?
I hope you did not put too much credence in the muckraking sub-headline of “thumbing his nose at Illo and Cordileone.” He mentions neither in his letter.
He seems to be responding to the really slanted media circus that has been going on in SF. I am sure that a lot of his parishioners were disturbed by it and he is trying to help them understand it.
I know a lot of people here misunderstood his reference to liberation as meaning liberation theology. I hope that you did not make that error, too. If you have the time, would you post back and tell me why you interpreted this letter the way that you did?
In response to this Anonymous this letter, for one of many reasons, produced scandal, this priest has NO right to write a letter to his parish underminding another parish for wanted to keep to tradition, the church allow pastors to manage their parish as long as they are faithful and whether Father llo chooses to not have alter girls, is not his business to discredit something that the church has always held for good reasons and also disrespects the Archbishop too. This priests actions are just as bad as when the SSPX chose to broke away…..problematic, that is one reason……I can point out even more but too long…pray about it.
Keep praying about it, Abeca, whatever it takes for you to get a handle on the truth of matters and not your own brand of ‘molested’ charity. Good grief. You deride Fr. Warren for undermining tradition and yet you have no concept of the exact same precipitating factors ‘problematic’ that were the instigating factors behind what you term as ‘breaking away’. It is and ‘was’ the continued attack and undermining of Catholic tradition and what the Church has always taught.
Much like your recent venture in discovering Henry VIII, please try to learn the facts surrounding events.
I really would appreciate seeing a formal cite where ‘Liberation Theology’ advocates theft or coveting one’s neighbors goods.
magee, what do you think Liberation Theology means ?
Please be specific.
Pat [a previous poster] says Liberation theology violates Church doctrine and was not approved by Vatican II. Then the author [given the name, cant tell boy or girl] cites the theft and covetness commandments.
I’m simply trying to understand what association the author sees here.
Margaret, I am not an expert on Liberation Theology nor am I defending it. Besides, management only allows 250 words.
Very briefly, LIBERATION THEOLOGY is marxist or communist – – where everything belongs to everyone – against the right to private property ownership.
Forcibly taking away goods from some and give to others.
This of course violates: “Thou Shall not covet thy Neighbors Goods”, and
“Thou shall not steal”.
And violates “Commutative Justice” “without which no other form of justice is possible” (CCC 2411)
And violates Church teaching against ALL forms of Collectivism (CCC 1885).
Liberation Theology is a heresy. The heretics state that this is what Jesus taught.
When in reality Jesus NEVER taught anything that would FORCE
(through government action or any other way) anyone to give up their own goods.
If I understand some of the comments correctly, some people believe that any parish web site that does not specifically state that all literate people over 15 must read the Bible and the CCC are in violation of church rules. You see how crazy we have become, don’t you. I went to the web site of this parish. It is VERY Catholic. It has faith formation classes. All Catholic teaching materials are based on the Bible and the CCC. The Catholic Church is a Church of inclusion not exclusion. This parish’s web site was all about being Catholic. The Pharisees were kicked out of the temple and those who can only quote the CCC but don’t live the faith will be hurting later int he next world.
Bob One this parish is about as Catholic as Episcopalian sects
Canisius, why do you say it is not Catholic? Do you belong? I thought you were from the East Coast. Have you reviewed the web site? It is very Catholic. Do you know people who go there? What have they told you? It helps the dialogue if you give specifics rather than throw your anger about, which you consider a good thing.
Yes Bob One anger is a very good thing… it purifies…and it accuses …as this is another Vatican 2 parish where people believe the Faith started in 1965. I can tell just be looking at it…anything that states its inclusive is by default NOT Catholic…I would challenge any from this parish if they know what the 4 Last things are, do they know what the Transubstantiation is, no they are more worried about being inclusive and how people feel
Canisius… How does your wife deal with your anger. I think it would be very hard to be married to someone who was angry as much as you say you are. Is it fair to her that you celebrate and enjoy being mad at something or someone all the time?
. she deals with it…. she has contributed to it by being unfaithful, which I am sure as man hater you probably think I deserved it. I have been loyal and supportive husband and that how I wash shown thanks…So anger C&H is one thing I will not let you women take from me.. never….
Canisius, I am so sorry she did that. That just makes me cry.
Catechisms that have been changed but are NOT the CCC,
do not contain the Doctrine of the Faith in entirety – or there would be no need for LITERATES over age 15 to have SUBSTITUTE catechisms.
Changes to the CCC were not and are not necessary for literate persons in the USA over age 15.
Haven’t you ever wondered why the followers of Bernardin made changes at all ?
SUBSTITUTE catechisms for the literate are just that – SUBSTITUTES for the real thing.
Can you read Bob One?
What does this state?
” “….. let us ask ourselves if we have actually taken a few steps to get to know Christ and the truths of faith more,
by reading and meditating on the Scriptures,
studying the Catechism,
steadily approaching the Sacraments.” – Pope Francis , May 15, 2013.
This WARREN does not want those who teach and set examples for children to be required to lead Moral Lives according to Sacred Scripture and the CCC – or he would not be disobedient to Abp Cordileone.
Can you read this Bob One?
“….the CATECHISM has raised throughout the world, even among non-Christians,
and confirms its purpose of being presented as a full, complete exposition of Catholic doctrine,
enabling everyone
to know what the Church professes, celebrates, lives, and prays in her daily life.” – Pope John Paul II (CCC pg xiv)
SUBSTITUTE catechisms are only for those who due to:
Young Age, Mental impairment, Lack of Maturity.
are NOT able to UNDERSTAND the ”Catechism of the Catholic Church, second edition”.
This instruction is for the world-wide Church. (CCC 24)
There may be Countries in the world that need SUBSTITUTE Catechisms including strange cultural issues where they require added explanation, but the USA does not.
In the USA kids as young as 12 read and understand Harry Potter, and would be able to read and understand the CCC,
however, it is probably best to wait until age 15 – to insure understanding on the sexual aspects even those these are a small part of the CCC.
The average Catholic in the USA age 15 or over is quite capable of understanding everything in the CCC.
If WARREN had his Parish parents reading the Bible and CCC, he would not be able to behave like such an idiot – regarding the expectation of Moral Behavior / example – to be employed in the Catholic Schools –
and no Catholic parents would be backing him up if they read the CCC.
The SUBSTITUTE Catechism he is using (if encouraging literate ADULTS and children to read them at all) must STINK.
.
And there is no way that any Catholic who read the Bible could support immoral activity if they read a Catholic Bible, rather than merely having certain passages spoon fed to them, with rotten homilies that have little to do with the Gospel as read.
This was posted by someone elsewhere but it is so true regarding LIBERATION THEOLOGY.
” An awful lot of twisting the Commandments into new and strange meanings.
Jesus said you should sell what you own and give your money to the poor.
Jesus did NOT say you should sell what I own and that you should give MY money to the poor. (This is stealing.)
Love your neighbor as yourself … not love your neighbor MORE than yourself.
Coveting your neighbor’s wife is different from knowing her mind, etc. That might easily lead to greater coveting. Basically leave your neighbor’s wife alone … period.
Too much twisting the words. ”
It gets back to: Thou Shall NOT Steal; Thou Shall NOT Covet thy Neighbor’s Goods.
and COMMUTATIVE JUSTICE without which no other form of justice is possible.
By now, how many calls have St. Stephens received from the Chroniicle/Examiner/SF Gate?
Celebs are made for the hour of need. Maybe YFC can PR the effort.
{From the Mother Lode]
I’m sure that 80% or more of San Francisco Catholics (roughly the same proportion of the teachers that signed the ant-policy change petition) would agree with the statement from St. Stephen’s pastor. This is not or should not be a surprise to any Catholic in the Bay Area. The question is what is Archbishop Cordileone going to do about it?
Try to kill the archdiocese in order to save it?
Bravo. It’s good to see a parish in SF demonstrate how and why the Church is still relevant.
No, “Hugh” what you are seeing is a “priest” saying that he is irrelevant. In fact, Fr. Warren is not really all that different that Martin Luther, who also was Catholic and a priest. Luther just did not like the way the Church taught and many other things (no, it was not all about simony).
Fr. Warren, and many other priests, should no longer be heading a Catholic parish. The real losers are the parishioners who are not really taught much about the Church, which is why they are so fundmentally ignorant of its teachings and doctrines. Fr. Warren must be disciplined by Abp. Cordileone, or sacked.
Nothing coming from this parish is relevant to the salvation of souls…nothing
Hugh we must side with the truth. I question the integrity of this priest. If he truly cared about souls, he wouldn’t be criticizing a holy priest nor his Archbishop, especially since Father LLO and Archbishop are within their right to keep to what is holy. This priest should worry about the salvation of his parishioners not on what he considers his own opinion and undermining others who are seeking to be holy. If he truly understood the faith, then he would not have acted in this bad will way!
That is the point Hugh. Just because the church has allowed alter girls and abuses that situation, does not mean that it made it illegal for other parish pastors to keep alter boys only. this is a tragedy and I encourage many to correct this priest from this article……just like love leads us to correct even good priest like Father Karl, then we must also love the ones who are most obvious too, like this one. We must go to confession first, cleanse our own selves first, then humbly seek to correct what our Lord commands…its an act of charity. True charity is for all.
If you’re going to throw around words like truth, and accuse a priest of siding against it, it might help to start with exactly what isn’t true or truthful.
There is nothing in that letter that contradicts the Church. His criticism of the archbishop is on the grounds of administrative priorities and heavy handed, disrespectful, authoritarian management style. He is free to express distaste for a fellow priest’s prerogative in rejecting a decades-old (and JPII-codified) practice of allowing female altar servers.
There is nothing to suggest that Fr. Warren dissents from the Church in any way. He is (rightly) concerned with the tone, priorities, and message being sent by SF archdiocese of late.
Relevance and priorities are key, and that’s exactly what he’s saying. To take aspects of doctrine (of tertiary and arbitrary origin) that are overwhelmingly rejected and in some cases seen as immoral by laity, and focus solely on enforcing them with an iron fist is a curious strategic move.
Much better to focus on a core message (like one that’s actually in the Gospels) and morality that the laity can see as meaningful as a foundation.
Abeca writes: “That is the point Hugh. Just because the church has allowed alter girls and abuses that situation, does not mean that it made it illegal for other parish pastors to keep alter boys only.”
Where has the church abused the situation of allowing altar girls??? Is there any situation you can quote in which “the church” or a parish abused “the situation of allowing altar girls” in a way that was also not abusive of allowing altar boys?? And why is an abuse of a good thing in one parish reason for its elimination altogether at another parish? What is the logic in that?
If someone abuses the Sacred Species at Parish X, is Parish Y better to make sure abuses don’t happen to the sacred species under their care, or is it best to ban the sacred species from the parish altogether?
One of the 4 marks of the Catholic Church is that She is ONE. Well, this is no longer true since the aftermath of Vatican II. We Catholics were once united in our beliefs, but now it is a smorgasbord, as Catholics believe they can accept or reject whatever they desire at the moment. As Shakespeare wrote, ‘There is something rotten in the state of Denmark”. Just as the Jewish faith has three divisions, namely Orthodox, Conservative and Reformed,and there are divisions in the Protestant religion, so too have these divisions crept into the Catholic Church. You have Traditional Catholics, Conservative Catholics, and Liberal Catholics. A query: who is more in line with the customaryl teaching of the Catholic Church, the Maryknoll Congregation, or the Society of St. Pius X? An aviator knows that when he is just one tenth of a degree off course, he will soon be miles and miles away from his target. By changing discipline, dogma and doctrine, the Church has now become a house divided. Not many Catholics abstain from meat on Fridays during Lent. Why, because the law was changed too many times. The same thing with Mass on Holy Days of Obligation. Why is birth control and abortion, and now homosexuality widely accepted, because of heretical teaching. We are no longer one, and most Catholics do not believe the same religious things that their fellow Catholics profess. Modernism is the culprit.
Who is more Catholic, the SSPX, or the Maryknoll congregation? Catholics are NO longer united. We are divided, because of modernism. The conservative and traditional Catholics are being punished by the liberals, and unfortunately this is coming from the Pope himself. The Church is now a house divided, with three types: traditional, conservative and liberal. I firmly believe the only one that will survive is the traditional branch as they have not wavered in their beliefs of practices. The other two move and change positions, and everything religious becomes a smorgasbord, as what to accept or reject. To answer the question I posed, the SSPX is more Catholic, and the Maryknoll congregation has not been Catholic since the late 1960’s.
I’m sorry but the SSPX is not Catholic. It is a priestly fraternity of suspended Catholic priests who exercise no legitimate ministry in the Church. The organization itself has no canonical status in the Church. It is not a part of the Catholic Church. Maybe someday it will be.
Yes, Anonymous, they are Catholic priests which is why they are Catholic. Thank you.
If Catholic priests start a book club is it Catholic?
If Catholic priests start a gay pride organization is it Catholic?
I think you are confused over the meaning of Catholic. In laymen terms, people call things Catholic that are not technically part of the Church like a Catholic book store or a Catholic website.
In order for an priestly fraternity to be Catholic-part of the Church-they must be established with the written permission of the local ordinary or the Pope. The SSPX is not.
In order for a priest to legitimately say a Mass, he must be incardinated by a bishop of the Catholic Church. The priests of the SSPX are not. Suspended priests may not say public Masses.
You are using the word Catholic in a misleading way to describe this organization.
… then you should take up a letter writing campaign to the Vatican, Anonymous, for they allow the Society facilities to offer mass. You have no understanding of what the term Catholic actually entails and, unfortunately, many of the so called flock in full communion doesn’t either. Hence the Synod on the Family and the ongoing crises within Holy Mother Church.
Ann Malley, it WAS nice of them to allow that one Mass. Pope Francis is like that.
Ann Malley, whether or not SSPX priests have the facilities or faculties (which did you actually mean to say??) to celebrate public masses has little to do with the definition of “catholic” or “Catholic”, and has absolutely nothing to do with the Synod on the Family. The “so called” flock in full communion is not a vague undefined term, even though you portray it as such. There IS a flock in full communion, and there are sheep out of full communion, and there are sheep in search of any communion at all. And the catholic church is called to shepherd them all. There is nothing “so called” about it. Shell games are not really becoming of the Church Catholic and Apostolic.
…the flock in ‘full communion’ doesn’t share the same beliefs, YFC. And no proclamation that yes is the same as no will change that.
But again, your grasping at some form of argumentation is appreciated as you continue to demonstrate that you have none. Your verging hysteria at the mention of the SSPX is also somewhat entertaining. Unfortunately, that’s not theater — good or bad — but the fruit of understanding that the ambiguity you prefer is not the order of the day. Or at the very least, not Catholic. And more and more folks are waking up to that fact despite your media spin.
Thanks for posting :)
“…Ann Malley, it WAS nice of them to allow that one Mass. Pope Francis is like that.”
If the Vatican allowed non-Catholics to play mass it would not be in any way shape or form – nice. Rather, it would be a gross scandal. You still seem to associate being Catholic as if it is a matter of personal coziness or the whim of whomever is in the driver’s seat at the moment.
That is why I cannot take you seriously.
Ann Malley is unable to debate facts, only “hysteria”. Let the people decide. Better, let God decide.
You do not seem to understand the term full communion. It applies to Churches which are autonomous but are one with the Catholic Church, like the Coptic Catholic Church and the Melkite Catholic Church and the Greek Byzantine Catholic Church.
The term does not apply to individuals.
Perhaps this is the cause of your confusion?
Ann Malley, could you please just stop.
We were talking to Father Karl. You butted in.
We all know how loyal you are to the SSPX and how derisive you are of the Catholic Church.
We also know that you have no problem distorting the truth, making up things and insulting those who come to the defense of the Faith.
I don’t think you are going to change. We just don’t want you messing with other people’s heads.
This is a CATHOLIC website. There are plenty of traditionalist websites where you can post your ideas and they won’t be countered. You will be welcomed there. Sorry we are not inclusive and diverse enough for you.
Perhaps you should have some tea with Abeca, YFC, and just relax. That and thank CCD for exposing more of the fight that Archbishop Cordelione and Fr. Illio are facing from those Catholics within the Church who are, it seems, being actively mistaught, misled, and shepherded away from what the Church actually teaches.
No they are not Ann Malley quit spreading lies! You are misleading the lay faithful!
Abeca, you need to lay off the tea. You are misleading yourself.
Anonymous, please be accurate when using the media.
The SSPX is not the priestly fraternity. The SSPX is the “Society of Saint Pius X “.
The Priests are ordained. This is their current status within the Catholic Church, ” … : until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers – even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty – do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church.”
https://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/letters/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20090310_remissione-scomunica.html
.
The FSSP is the “Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter ” – who do exercise a legitimate ministry within the Church.
https://fssp.com/press/
Btw – the FSSP is holding a training workshop for all Catholic Priests who wish to learn the Traditional Latin Mass – MAY 18-22, 2015 .
https://fssp.com/press/2015/02/traditional-latin-mass-training-at-our-lady-of-guadalupe-seminary-in-may-2015/
Established in June 2007, the Priest Training Program of the Priestly Fraternity of St Peter has provided personal training for over 130 priests in 72 different dioceses in North America. Over 80% of participants in this program are now saying the Extraordinary Form on a regular basis.
If you know of a priest that may be interested, please have them find complete program and signup information at:
http://www.fssptraining.org .
.
This is a link to the Diocese(s) where the FSSP is located within the USA
and Canada.
https://fssp.com/press/locations/
Pete, the Society is ‘a’ priestly fraternity.
Ann MALLEY what you need to ADMIT is that until there is another OFFICIAL statement from the VATICAN –
the SSPX –
QUOTE ” has NO canonical status in the Church,
and its ministers – even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty – do NOT legitimately exercise ANY ministry in the Church.” until and unless … ” the doctrinal questions are clarified”. UNQUOTE.
Malley, why do you insist on ignoring the truth and bullying your way into trying to get people to think otherwise ?
Your way is a lie.
Admit the truth – the OFFICIAL position of the SSPX within the Church.
Dan, you now using my last name like this is some locker room shake down or school yard bully session is telling. If that makes you feel more confident in your own position, great. But nobody is denying the irregular situation. Rather I take issue with conflating what is an irregular situation to mean that a group is in schism and/or is heretical. The only ‘situation’ is the unwillingness to sign carte blanche that VII documents are wholly in line with Tradition – they are not, Dan.
That is patently false.
For while you may not believe +Kasper when he speaks with regard to the compromise formulas in VII, those in power positions do and are acting upon what they know to be true in order to facilitate that which those like Abeca lament over tea while intimating that we should just contemplate our powerlessness to do anything about the situation. Goodness, but I am glad the Saints of old did not embrace such weak-kneed complacency. But then being shouted down and scolded in a cyber-school yard is so much harder than speaking the truth and taking the heat for it.
The Catholic Church has repeatedly said the SSPX is not in schism. They are Catholic. Cardinal Hoyos said it over and over again as head of Ecclesia Dei. Msgr. Perl wrote a letter from Ecclesia Dei stating that the Mass is valid that even a Catholic can fulfill his Sunday obligation at an SSPX chapel.
No Asbury. You are misinformed. You do not understand. Get informed. That information has posted various of times. Learn what the church laws actually mean.
Asbury, the Church’s position is that SSPX priests serve no public ministry. It is true that their masses are valid, however, their confessions and marriages are not. And the ordinations were called “schismatic acts” by the Vatican.
We have mostly adult servers at my current small parish, some are women. All serve well. This is permitted by our diocese, and we continue it.
As far as teachers being trusted to teach the Catholic faith, I say many have good will, but not an intellectual and systematic grasp of the the faith, particularly those under the age of 60 because of weak catechesis even in Catholic schools and universities.
I formed my teachers with sound doctrine. They had huge gaps in knowledge and comprehension, and thirsted for truth, and once they found it, they taught it. Of course neither did I employ someone who would not live the Catholic faith and profess to teach it fully.
Regarding the priest’s particular understanding of development of doctrine, the development is an unfolding of the same truth, not a change. His statement does not reflect Catholic teaching on such development.
Where there is a problem with the truth of the church, there are usually problems below the waist.
Father Warren was at a parish that I attended awhile back…..
He was much liked by MANY of the parishioners, but then it was St. Gregory’s, the bastion of Liberalism!!!
I am NOT surprised at all.
Being “well liked” is not a barometer of being a good Priest.
In fact it may be a sign that he teach relativism, or teaches nothing of significance.
JESUS was not well liked by ALL.
See: Mt 10:34-39
“Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
and a man’s foes will be those of his own household.
He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me;
and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;
and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it. “- JESUS.
Someone needs to “liberate” Father from his parochial duties!
All I can say is, if this modernism keeps up — esp. altar girls — within 50 years we’re going to end up with more American imams than priests. Speaking of altar girls, why do they have terrible unruly hair?
We have t o give the Muslims credit for NOT succumbing to relativism,
having their own teachings and principles and sticking to them as stated in the Quran.
and not believing that we believe in the same God – as now being inccorectly taught by many Catholic Clergy;
Muslims do not believe that Christ is God. They believe we are in grave error.
They do not believe in the TRINITY – Father, Son, Holy Spirit – which is our God.
And Muslims believe that we are infidels, not worthy of life.
” Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous.”
Quran 9:123, “Repentance,” Dawood, p. 206
.
“Muhammad is God’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. ”
Quran 48:29, “Victory,” Dawood, p. 514
.
” Those that deny Our revelations We will burn in fire. No sooner will their skins be consumed than We shall give them other skins, so that they may truly taste the scourge. God is mighty and wise.”
Quran 4:56, “Women,” Dawood, p. 86
.
” Let not the unbelievers think that they will ever get away. They have not the power to do so. Muster against them all the men and cavalry at your command, so that you may strike terror into the enemy of God and your enemy…”
Quran 8:59-60, “The Spoils,” Dawood, p. 183
.
Well Robert….all the altar girls at MY parish have well cared for hair. Maybe the ladies at YOUR parish should speak to the girls about grooming.
Well Robert….all the altar girls at MY parish have well cared for hair. Maybe the ladies at YOUR parish should speak to the girls about grooming.
The comic strip POGO, had a famous quote: ‘We have met the enemy, and he is us!” The majority of the problems in the Catholic Church are coming from inside. This may be radical to write, but. when answering in the affirmative, the question was asked: ‘Is the Pope Catholic?” Now, since Pope Francis was elected, this famous question can no longer be sincerely asked, because a negative answer might be given.. It is very sad, but it is true. With all the attacks on traditional Catholics by the Vatican, it can easily be said that Satan has entered the Holy See, and modernism is reigning. Ave Maria Purrissima!
As well as RELATIVISM – ” Ya’ll come, there is no right or wrong. We have no principles – except love your buddy, and that can mean whatever you want”.
” HITLER on the Midterm Relatio Report from the Extraordinary Synod on the Family in Rome ”
Ah yes, two ego’s on a role Adolf for one, Michael Voris for another.
Pope Benedict XVI lifted the excommunication from the SSPX. The former pontiff stated that they were ‘irregular’, but that does not mean they are not Catholic. I recall reading where a cardinal in the Vatican publically stated that Masses said by the SSPX were valid, as well as the other sacraments. That said, considering the ecclesiastical emergency the Church is in, and that in such cases, Holy Mother Church supplies, I see no problem with the validity of the sacraments they provide.
God bless you, Fr. Karl, for lending ‘Catholic’ common sense to the discussion.
Ann Malley, the situation with the SSPX is what it is. We can only pray that the talks with the Vatican will go better this time and they will reconcile with the Church. Until that time, as Father Karl points out, irregular. Irregular in the Catholic Church means having “a canonical impediment directly impeding the reception of tonsure and Holy orders or preventing the exercise of orders already received.”
The priests, while Catholic (because Holy Orders renders on a priest forever) are not permitted to exercise any ministry in the Church. As you know, they do. And they incur an automatic excommunication because they do.
The SSPX is not a canonically erected entity. It is not part of the Catholic Church. The organization is no more Catholic than New Ways Ministry or DignityUSA. It does not matter that members are Catholic or Catholic priests. There are means of making an organization Catholic which SSPX is (maybe) trying to do. The Vatican is definitely trying to help them become part of the Church. So far, they have not accepted.
The situation we have here on CCD is that people, like yourself, post erroneous and misleading things about the SSPX which could be a danger to souls.
You have free will and you worship where you will but when you commit scandal by misleading the faithful, we have to speak up.
Anonymous, speak up all you’d like. But you assert an authority and make declarations that are beyond your scope. That said, you calumniate here on CCD and greatly mislead the faithful by doing so.
Ann Malley leave Anonymous alone! You started this because you disagreed with my post to Father Karl….you don’t agree, fine but I don’t agree with you either….who cares…let it go and go to confession…oh I forgot…you can’t, because the SSPX confessions are not valid.
You can bicker all you want and post personal attacks on others but the truth is still the truth…doesn’t change even when you speak your opinions!
Guess you did not like my post.
Ann Malley, this is a Catholic website. What do you expect? People are just going to let you talk about how great mortal sin is?
AM, to “calumniate” is to make false and defamatory statements. Anon at 10:59 AM made no false statements.
No, Abeca, I didn’t much care for your ridiculous post to Fr. Karl. The why being your posts are no advertisement for the Catholic Faith, but rather for the stereotype of blind obedience to a shifting authority that is anything but Catholic and quite a turn off when attempting to evangelize what the Church actually teaches.
I hope you took time in your busy day to write to Fr. Paul Warren about his issues. But judging from your posts you’d rather just send him a list of methods of how to divert attention from one’s own bad behavior. You may not be an expert in that area, but that’s not for want of trying.
Have a great rest of the week hanging out in Simi Valley.
Fair enough Ann Malley….you didn’t care much about it. I can tell but why do you have to stoop so low as to add malice intent. I understand that you have your own opinions on how you view me but its not how you view it. Its not, I assure you, to me its about saving souls. I don’t appreciate you insinuating that I side with so and so or this and that…..just to discredit my genuine love of faith. We do have moral convictions that match one another, I can say that I do admire that part about you. Well I can say more but I better not. I hope you wrote to Fr. Paul….instead of wasting your energy discrediting us who also are displeased with disobedience.
Ann Malley as much as you knock down my tea invitation….I am very sincere about it….I have no problem having tea and scones with even those who dislike me. Tea can be at a public place, we can read the bible and the CCC together if you like. I would like the opportunity to be your host. PAX Christi
Is nastiness a virtue taught by the Society?
Abeca, there is no amount of tea drinking or hosting that is going to cover for your egregious behavior. Misdirected zeal is a dangerous thing especially when coupled with a resolute dismissal of proper education on any given topic.
I’m so excited, I feel like I’m watching a remake of my favorite show! Alexis, played by Abeca Christian, and Krystle played by Ann Malley. Or is it the other way around? Isn’t this FUN! Oh anyhow, will they have the full season available on Netflix? Does anybody know?
Father Karl, organizations aren’t excommunicated. People are. Pope Benedict XVI lifted the excommunications that the 4 men that are called bishops in the SSPX incurred when they accepted episcopal ordination without permission of Pope John Paul II. (Canon 1382)
From the letter to the Bishops written by Pope Benedict XVI:
The excommunication affects individuals, not institutions. An episcopal ordination lacking a pontifical mandate raises the danger of a schism, since it jeopardizes the unity of the College of Bishops with the Pope. Consequently the Church must react by employing her most severe punishment – excommunication – with the aim of calling those thus punished to repent and to return to unity. Twenty years after the ordinations, this goal has sadly not yet been attained. The remission of the excommunication has the same aim as that of the punishment: namely, to invite the four Bishops once more to return. This gesture was possible once the interested parties had expressed their recognition in principle of the Pope and his authority as Pastor, albeit with some reservations in the area of obedience to his doctrinal authority and to the authority of the Council. Here I return to the distinction between individuals and institutions. The remission of the excommunication was a measure taken in the field of ecclesiastical discipline: the individuals were freed from the burden of conscience constituted by the most serious of ecclesiastical penalties. This disciplinary level needs to be distinguished from the doctrinal level.
Father Karl, Priests who do not have faculties to hear confession and attempt to give absolution incur an automatic excommunication. Canon 1378
There is nothing in Catholic Tradition that would support the claim that some individual Catholic or even a group of Catholics can decide there is something they don’t like going on in the Church constitutes an emergency.
There is nothing in Catholic Tradition that would give priests or bishops who believed in this hypothetical emergency the right to separate from the Church.
Do you know how to contact Cardinal Burke? He is an excellent canon lawyer. He would be able to explain it to you much better than I.
Your post could be scandal if people believed you and sinned because of it.
…perhaps you should take note that Cardinal Burke when asked about the increase at Society chapels indicated, not that they weren’t Catholic, but rather that he believed Bishops were taking notice of said increase. And they are, Anonymous. And as such the outdated notion that the faith must be watered down to be accepted is dispelled. I understand that may disturb you, but that is rather a good thing as the more Catholic in practice leadership becomes, the more solid the formation of the flock.
It’s okay.
But while you’re looking out to prevent sin, you may want to direct your efforts at those who are disregarding canon law and giving Communion to those in unrepentant, public mortal sin. For the spirit of the law is to save souls, Anonymous, not scandalize and destroy. That is why the Church, in Her wisdom, supplies when necessity arises.
Who ever said the faith had to be watered down to be accepted? Is that what they teach at the Society chapels?
This is your typical response. Don’t bother my favorite mortal sinners. Go bother someone else.
The Church supplies what?
Would you be more comfortable with the phrase “The members of the SSPX hold to the tenets of the Catholic Faith but are not currently allowed to perform the sacraments. The SSPX organization is not recognized by the Holy See as belonging to the Catholic Church.”
My comfort is not the issue here, Anonymous, but rather your insistence that you somehow know more than the Catholic Church when proclaiming who is or who is not Catholic.
Your understanding is greatly limited as evidenced by your skewed posting that confuses ‘danger of’ with ‘reality of’. Also, your clearly erroneous position that the Society only recently has recognized the Pope as the Pope is another proof of your lack of education in the area of Catholic teaching and the situation at hand.
Also, one does not remove excommunication as a gesture. For to do so would indicate that the excommunication itself was not valid, but rather only a gesture.
Please, try to understand the terms you are using, what they mean and how they correspond to one another logically before attempting to educate Fr. Karl or any other thinking Catholic.
The Mystical Body is not only equipped with feet, hands, and knees, but also brains, heart, blood, and lungs – lungs which breathe and share the requisite oxygen with those members who would otherwise be left to choke for lack of air, a brain which looks logically at that which is presented, and blood that shares the nourishment of truth – all of it.
That is why your limited expressions seem more like a tourniquet – designed to stem blood flow. But not the flow of blood from the Mystical Body, but rather the flow of any credibility for the argumentation you present.
Father Karl, have you seen this interview with Cardinal Burke. It may be interesting to you.
There is nothing about the SSPX in it.
https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2015/03/exclusive-cardinal-burke-interview-with.html
Father Karl, I am sure that you did not mean to endorse the SSPX. If you want a good snapshot of the character of this organization go to their website and see the page they put up entitled what is the canonical status of the SSPX. They show a lot of quotes taken out of context, none of which address the issue of their canonical status. Guess what quote they don’t have?
Pope Benedict XVI:
The fact that the Society of Saint Pius X does not possess a canonical status in the Church is not, in the end, based on disciplinary but on doctrinal reasons. As long as the Society does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church. There needs to be a distinction, then, between the disciplinary level, which deals with individuals as such, and the doctrinal level, at which ministry and institution are involved. In order to make this clear once again: until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers – even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty – do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church.
Here is an example of their deceptive self-promotion:
The SSPX says:
“The SSPX has been correct when claiming (based upon the principles of Canon Law and Catholic teaching) that no canonical censures against the SSPX have ever existed.”
Right. The canonical censures are against the priests and bishops.
The SSPX, having no canonical status in the Church, is not going to have canonical censures. DUH!
Father Karl you are in grave error….I will keep you in my prayers
Father Karl, have you read what Pope Benedict said, or do you choose to ignore it ?
Please tell us the truth. You are leading people astray.
QYOTE: ” The fact that the Society of Saint Pius X does not possess a canonical status in the Church is not, in the end, based on disciplinary but on doctrinal reasons.
As long as the Society does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church.
There needs to be a distinction, then, between the disciplinary level, which deals with individuals as such,
and the doctrinal level, at which ministry and institution are involved.
In order to make this clear once again: until the doctrinal questions are clarified,
the SOCIETY has NO CANONICAL STATUS in the Church,
and its ministers – even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty – DO NOT LEGITIMATELY EXERCISE ANY MINISTRY IN THE CHURCH. ” UNQUOTE – Pope Benedict, March 2009.
This is the latest official information from the VATICAN regarding the SSPX.
And it stands until and unless there is some new public pronouncement from the Vatican.
See the end of paragraph 3 for the above quote by Pope Benedict.
https://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/letters/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20090310_remissione-scomunica.html
Also let us not forget to mention that attending Sunday mass with them, does not meet the requirements….also a priest from the FSSP – Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter, parish warned us that their sacrament of reconciliation are not valid. If we care about saving souls, then we must state those facts and warn the lay faithful because as you can read here many are promoting the SSPX and are misleading souls.
Yes, Abeca, and other priests in full communion are holding different views in light of the ongoing crisis within the Church. So whereas you have access to the FSSP, others may not. Many do not.
That is why ‘your’ FSSP priest is not the definitive authority.
Ann Malley, You have a lot of buzz words that mean nothing.
Priests in full communion? What? Did you make that up or did you fall for something on a wackycatholicwebsite again?
Ongoing crisis in the Church? The phrase itself makes no sense. Is that something you made up or is that from one of your brilliant schismatic sources?
and I suppose you or one of your excommunicated priests are the definitive authority?
As you can see, I am out of patience with your hogwash.
Go try to sell it on e-bay, baby we ain’t buying it here.
Ann Malley then the OF mass is available. There are many holy priests faithful to the Magisterium who are in the OF parishes. Like mother Angelica adviced, to seek one that is obedient and holy, she said one can also stay and charitably work with the pastor to help correct any abuses. Its been done, i know first hand. That is all i have to say. Its been explained to you many times. I think some people just love to complain more than to take action. Its easy to get discouraged when people expect their will to be done and have not the patience nor trust enough in our Lord. It is also prideful to have expectations often that only lead a person to schism or heresy. Trusting in God is something that needs daily practice especially when dealing with sinners and their free will. It can be humbling to accept that we have no power over this world and its bad will. We are to take care of the self first. But i bet you don’t understand that today but i pray that you will someday. In God’s own time. His will be done. Pax Christi.
Abeca, you still do not understand, but that is okay. In the meantime, God does understand and is working His will despite your inability to see. That is why your inappropriate words to Fr. Karl and your dismissal of the understanding and concerted effort of other Catholics on behalf of Holy Mother Church are perhaps not prideful, but just very narrow in scope and subsequently not helpful in the way you may think. Certainly not when it comes to Catholic unity. So what you say:
“…Trusting in God is something that needs daily practice especially when dealing with sinners and their free will. It can be humbling to accept that we have no power over this world and its bad will. We are to take care of the self first. But i bet you don’t understand that today but i pray that you will someday. In God’s own time.”
…is something you should take to heart on your own behalf. Trust in God, Abeca. And while you look to Mother Angelica you may want to know that her position on Fatima is/was very similar to that of Fr. Gruener – one you dismissed on another thread. So while schism and heresy are wholly to be avoided, the truth, and the legitimate divergence of opinion with regard to matters that effect the Church in very serious ways are not.
Like a good holy priest once said that its easier to convert an athiest than it is a person immersed in heresies and schism. It will take alot to correct those errors and Ann Malley is a perfect example of someone heavily immersed. But with God all is possible and we must continue in charity and prayer for her and others.
Abeca, stop being divisive. The Society holds no heretical views and is not in schism. Please try trusting in God as you advocate others to do and work for unity. Casting aspersions on others whose situation you have presumptuously and erroneously diagnosed is an indication that you are misguided and uneducated regarding what Rome itself has to say. Certainly not the disposition of a humble servant of God.
People use the excuse “well look at the abuses happening in the church, so how can that be valid or OK” It’s not OK! Those that love and know their faith, are obligated to act as much as they can. well just because something appears to be Catholic, for example the SSPX, does not make it valid. Jesus picked His disciples, Judas betrayed Him but just because of Judas’s actions does not discredit what Jesus stood for, does not discredit Christ’s promises to us His church etc. We need to be faithful and the reasons we have disobedience within the church, it is also due to the schism that is defended often as well. It suggests to sinners that there is another way out when you disagree. Schism and heresies give way to disobedience from within and out. Its problematic. If the SSPX would return, it helps correct some of the issues we are having and it will not encourage people to suggest relativism or question if this is Christ’s church…….the SSPX actions have produced much more division than they can ever imagine.
Since the FSSP – Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter remain faithful and help keep the Latin Mass, then so can the broken away SSPX, they can return. I feel that we need to put the pressure on them to return by educating people on the spiritual harm they have produced by their refusal to not return to Rome.
…Abeca, the FSSP wouldn’t have had any priests or traditional training in the Latin Mass and practice if not for Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre. That said, many a diocese only allows the FSSP into their territory because they are forced to combat the SSPX. In essence, many diocese do not like the TLM or Catholic tradition, but yield to the pressure of the presence of the SSPX to give the people what they require regarding the traditional mass and sacraments. (The FSSP was promised their own Bishop back in the day and has still never received one – why? – because Bishops can ordain priests, Abeca, and a ‘traditional’ Bishop would likely maintain the Catholic tradition of the FSSP.)
So while you put on the pressure, understand that the FSSP has no Bishop of its own to ordain traditional priests or to secure the traditional teaching within their order. They are too often subject to the likes of those Bishops who are in San Diego…. beholden to modernists who merely ‘tolerate’ them, Abeca. If you try to understand what that really means, you may not be so quick to want to eliminate the SSPX who, in all honesty, has been the best thing ever to grow the FSSP in this climate of ongoing crisis.
So should the SSPX suddenly go away, so would any pressure point to give Catholics the Catholic Faith, whole and entire, complete with the TLM and traditional Catholic practice. Please look at what happened to the Franciscans of the Immaculate and understand that that kind of crushing can and does happen despite what you believe.
MAC, what you seem to be ignoring is that others have come to the understanding that there is an ongoing crisis within the Church. And, MAC, there is.
So while you falsely intimate that others are leading souls astray, please stop a moment to read what folks write instead of reading something into what others write in order to indulge in fear mongering. Your intimation that folks are ignoring the OFFICIAL position of the Church is erroneous.
That said, the OFFICIAL position of the Church regarding St. Joan of Arc was that she was a heretic. Please, try putting things in perspective. Proper perspective.
Who? Who came to the “understanding” that there is an ongoing crisis in the Church?
What do you mean by crisis?
What is this supposed ongoing crisis in the Church?
Is ongoing crisis a contradiction of terms?
YFC –
” Do not be deceived: BAD COMPANY RUINS GOOD MORALS ” – 1 Cor 15:33.
You, YFC have been given a chance to know God, and the teaching of His Church. You choose to ignore them because you love your own sin more than God.
Sodomy is a MORTAL SIN, as well as support for SODOMY Marriage.
Amen to that PAUL.
Ann Malley what you seem to be ignoring is that YOU do not possess the knowledge or the AUTHORITY to make any official pronouncements on behalf of the Church regarding the SSPX.
Pope JP II, and Pope Benedict, and Pope Francis do. And so far they are all the same – stating that the SSPX holds zero canonical status within the Church.
(Hopefully this will change in the future, but NOT to DATE.)
I never said that there was not an ongoing crisis within the Church. Do not lie about me again.
I have posted more about the SYNOD than you ever did – which proves a crisis as stated by Cardinal Burke.
You on the other hand mostly post about your Personal Opinions regarding the SSPX and their official position within the Catholic Church – which are Wrong.
Start posting links to OFFICIAL documentation from the Church, not wayward links which are the personal opinions of others who support your thinking of error.
MAC, I’m glad to know that you understand that there is crisis in the Church. Others do, too, and respond accordingly.
And I have never said mine is an OFFICIAL position. That is your fear expressing itself or, if not fear, then your insistence on hijacking my words to suit your own purpose. That being stifling accurate communication.
So whereas you are posting about Cardinal Burke and the crisis expressed at the Synod, please try to grasp that there are reasons behind why Church hierarchy have come to such a point of not ‘agreeing’ on the protection due to Sacramental marriage, the teachings of the Church and what constitutes mercy.
This is not a competition, MAC. Crises just don’t happen overnight. And that is why those who love the Faith, whole and entire, need to stick together and speak clearly to one another. Not lob gag-orders via capital letters and OFFICIAL pronouncements.
Again, St. Joan of Arc was ‘officially’ burned as a heretic. And just because you now understand there is a crisis because Cardinal Burke has said so does not mean there hasn’t been a crisis brewing long term – because there absolutely has been, MAC.
This article highlights why I distinguish between the “Spirit of Vatican II” or for short-hand, the “Novus Ordo Church”, and the Catholic Church of tradition. It (the Novus Ordo Church) flows from an artificially-constructed liturgy, a “fabricated liturgy”. Wild homilies, improvisations permitted by GIRM itself, puppets, dancers, prancers, Comet, et al. Oh: I don’t hold that position on my own:
“The liturgical reform, in its concrete realization, has distanced itself even more from its origin. The result has not been a reanimation, but devastation. In place of the liturgy, fruit of a continual development, they have placed a fabricated liturgy. They have deserted a vital process of growth and becoming in order to substitute a fabrication. ” –Ratzinger in Revue Theologisches, (v. 20) Feb. 1990
So we have two Churches and—since there seems no other practical option on the horizon—the division will continue until it finally becomes split in two.
Steve Phoenix, you are incorrect.
If you read the Roman Missal of 1962 for the EF MASS,
and the Roman Missal of 2011 for the OF MASS – many (but not all) of the Prayers are exactly the same.
My best guess is that you are complaining mostly about the many ABUSES of the OF MASS whereby either the Priest and/or many of the people attending are in violation of:
V II Doc – Dogmatic Constitution – “Sacrosanctum Concilium”
#22.3 ” Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority. ”
When there are ABUSES of the Liturgy by a Priest, far too many people are too lazy or do not know that they should contact the appropriate Diocese Bishop.
When there are ABUSES of the Liturgy by the People, it is the Priest’s job to correct them – prior to, during, or after Mass as needed..
GIRM for the OF Mass: https://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/
Decree from a Diocese Bishop (regarding many of the abuses committed by people at the OF Mass).
https://www.praytellblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2011-Pastoral-Letter-with-Decree-Bulletin-Insert.pdf
Well said MAC, well said.
No, there is one Church. If you choose to separate yourself from it, then you are in schism. And if you preach that there are two churches then you are a heretic as well.
I hope you won’t leave, Steve. But I have learned that as articulate as you are about many things, there are some very basic elements of ecclesiology an such that you actually could use some study. I think if you finished your studies, and actually listened with an open heart, you might just stay.
“…I think if you finished your studies, and actually listened with an open heart, you might just stay.”
Perhaps your assertion with regard to study, listening, and having an open heart to what the Church actually teaches would be more credible if you gave witness by publicly proclaiming your own new-found adherence to what the Church actually teaches, YFC. Just sitting in a pew and donating heavily to parishes that allow heterodoxy in practice – even while leaving doctrine alone – is no assurance of being Catholic, at least not a practicing one. Rather it is testament to the desire to obscure Catholic doctrine from within.
You just keep delivering, YFC. Thanks again.
And unfortunately YFC – YOU are a HERETIC.
You support Sodomy, and Sodomy same-sex Marriages (as you have stated).
Supporting mortal sins sends Souls to Hell if there is no repentance and the resolution not to sin again.
Faithful Catholics MUST adhere to:
Sacred Scripture: About homosexual acts:
Gen 19:1-29; Rom 1:24-27; 1 Cor 6:9-10; 1 Tim 1:10 ; Jude 1:7.
and
CCC # 2357, 2358, 2359, & 2396.
Church definition of HERESY – CCC: 2089 ” INCREDULITY is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it.
HERESY is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;…”
Note – YFC, you must take the log out of your own eye, before you take the splinter out of your brother’s eye – per JESUS.
Although you call some schismatics (and you appear to be correct), you are a heretic.
Wrong YFC your crowd is creating false counterfeit Church within the Church…you want gay marriage and gay positive teachings. you want contraception and abortion..your to subordinate salvation to social justice….
Of course, many people will decry a distinguishing of a “Novus Ordo Church” vs. the “Traditional Catholic Church:” let the croaking and quacking denials begin. That usually is from fear of what is in a state of becoming.
But the difference between a church of Fr. Paul Warren and a Church of Fr. Illo, between a church of Abp Blaise Cupich and a Church of Abp. Cordileone, between even the church of the standard Novus Ordo fare (with notable exceptions for some sincere and heartfelt celebrations) and the Church of the FSSP, or Our Lady of Peace Shrine in Santa Clara, CA, or EWTN, is so glaring, well, it is there and obvious.
We are due for a flyover from the Novus Ordo Anonymous Ducks now.
There is one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Both the ORDINARY FORM (aka – OF; Novus Ordo), and
the EXTRAORDINARY FORM (aka – EF; Traditional; Latin)
of the Mass are Holy.
And can inspire provided that – – – –
Both the Priest at the OF Mass and the people at the OF Mass COMPLETELY adhere to GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal) as required (but does not happen in many cases);
and
Both the Priest at the EF Mass and the people at the EF Mass COMPLETELY adhere to the 1962 Missal as required (and happens in most cases).
Vatican II Document: “SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM” – Dogmatic Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy
General Norms: # 22.3 ” Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority. “
AMEN DOTTIE and de fide!
“Steve Phoenix” is correct: While the N.O. is a “licit” Mass, the Mass of All Time conveys the full complement of graces provided by Christ; they are not completely interchangeable.
The comparisons provided among Abp. Cupich and Apb. Cordileone, for example, show the development, over the past few decades, of two Catholic Churches. The people who attend each version receive very different benefits and detriments. It is likely, for example, that the Cupich model produces Catholic dullards, who know little of the Faith, except weasel words that simply convey permission to do things — mostly sexual things — without fear of sin (which would be judgmental and discriminatory).
Such a model may also produce Catholic determinists. These people, such as Pope Francis, his German, Latin American, and USA cardinal and bishop pals included, do not see the need for Faith, per se, unless it becomes a means to an end.
Against this is simple Faith, the Faith of Our Fathers, of Pope Pius XII, St. John Paul II, Benedict, Cardinal Burke, Abp. Cordileone, and many others. This is a Faith that recognizes sin and the awful inheritance of today’s Mankind. And, further recognizes that the Catholic Church is the only way to Christ and salvation. The distinction is stark, and terrible, as the “New Church” is being forced on the entire institutional Church by Francis (who seems to despise Tradition).
Galations 5:19-26 Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us have no self-conceit, no provoking of one another, no envy of one another.
Abeca Christian, Father Karl wrote: ‘I see no problem…” He did not say” I know”. With seeing, things can change (A light changes from red to green). Also, from what I have read from the new code of canon law, only a few reasons for excommunication exist. Trying to kill the Holy Father, violating the seal of confession, ordaining bishops without permission, and profanation of the Blessed Sacrament. I am not a canon lawyer, and without the text in front of me, I cannot add to this list.
Another way to see the impending split between the “Novus Ordo Church” and the Catholic Church of tradition is to see the language employed in the different liturgies:
St Stephen’s pastor speaks of his New Church as replacing an “out-of-date theology” (his words) with a series of political causes as the purpose of the liturgy. He cites vaguely the 2nd Vatican Council as his authority (there we have it again: “Vatican II says…”: a standard dogma of the New Church). The causes we must uphold are: gun control, “immigrants rights”, opposition to “economic inequality”, etc. One of the prayers of one priest not long ago mentioned the intention to “save the whales.”
In the “Old Church” (a term I am sure Team Bergoglio would like), the Mass specifically states it is an an eternal sacrificial act of expiation of sins for the living and the dead (“Suscipe, Sancte Pater” prayer, Offertory): that is a statement of intention congruent with Duns Scotus and Thomas Aquinas. The New Order specifically expunged this prayer: if you believe the New Order is an act of expiation, you do so on your own, and you are not following the commissar’s marching orders at the programming session, which is what many New Order liturgies have become—such as at St. Stephens: a list of actions George Soros would be proud of.
There are many Novus Ordo celebrations that are trying to preserve the traditional Catholic spiritual value system—in time, they will be overcome by the need for “political and economic justice.” This is why in the process of emergent beliefs, there is a distinction overall between “N.O. Church” and its believers and that other Church and those other Catholics.
Just recently on the 50th anniversary of the first Mass in the vernacular, at Ognissanti Church in Rome, Mar. 7th, 2015, Pope Francis’ homily focused also on this difference. He proposes once again at guided thinking, saying he wishes “to promote an authentic liturgical life”, citing Sacro. Concilium, no. 10. In other words, there is authentic liturgical life and false liturgical life, according to the pontiff.
However, SC no. 10 says the Mass (and they are speaking in Dec.,1963 of the Traditional Latin Mass: no one had ever conceived at this point of a “New Mass”: that was first unveiled in Jan., 1968, in Abpt Bugnini’s secret “experimental liturgies” at night in the Sistine Chapel) promotes “apostolic life” and “the sanctification of men and the glorification of God.” It never mentions the action-contemplation model (with actually no contemplation: it is more “programming- to-take-action”-model).
PF specifically criticizes in this homily those who “cover themselves up with prayers and devotional practices” and earlier in the homily speaks disparagingly of those who say their Rosary. The new meaning of all this is action, action action: “justice to our neighbor”.
I agree with MAC that Fr. Karl is leading people astray. And furthermore I think that CCD should closely moderate his comments, or not have them posted at all. A couple of years ago he wrote that he attended a retreat at the SSPX’s Our Lady of Guadalupe monastery in New Mexico, and that’s a big no-no. It’s actions like these that may cause the new bishop of San Diego to request that CCD not use the word “Catholic” in its name. And that would be unfortunate, because CCD does plenty of good work.
If the term, Catholic, is to be used as a weapon to silence truthful discussion between actual Catholics about the realities of divergent and dangerous practice, it would seem the ‘universality’ of the Church is no longer that based on one Faith, but on a name. A name, Klaus, that seems to be undergoing the process of redefinition, much like the attempt to redefine marriage. (The National Catholic Reporter is by no means Catholic. Crux is by no means ‘all things Catholic’.)
For how to reconcile the divergent ‘opinions’ tossed about at the ’14 Synod? (Opinions that go against what the Church has always taught and understood about the nature of marriage, sin, and what is charity.)
So while you lend a hand to silencing honest discussion about the exercise of the fullness of the Faith and seeking thereof, and attempt to black ball by way of ‘big no-nos, you’re doing little but fear mongering, attempting to stifle healthy discussion by way of threat. That’s not guiding souls, that’s cowing souls.
CCD does do plenty of good work – and that work is facilitated by robust Catholic exchange and information. As for what the ‘Bishop’ of San Diego might do, good grief…. look to CCC 675.
GUIDELINES ABOUT ALTER SERVERS FROM THE UNITED STATES BISHOPS: (to make a long story short, Fr Warren is correct in saying that one pastor in a diocese should not “make a statement” by excluding girls if the bishop himself permits them in the diocese!!!)
Although institution into the ministry of acolyte is reserved to lay men, the diocesan bishop may permit the liturgical functions of the instituted acolyte to be carried out by altar servers, men and women, boys and girls. Such persons may carry out all the functions listed in no. 100 (with the exception of the distribution of Holy Communion) and nos. 187 – 190 and no. 193 of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal.
The determination that women and girls may function as servers in the liturgy should be made by the bishop on the diocesan level so that there might be a uniform diocesan policy.
No distinction should be made between the functions carried out in the sanctuary by men and boys and those carried out by women and girls. The term “altar boys” should be replaced by “servers”. The term “server” should be used for those who carry out the functions of the instituted acolyte.
Servers should be mature enough to understand their responsibilities and to carry them out well and with appropriate reverence. They should have already received holy communion for the first time and normally receive the eucharist whenever they participate in the liturgy.
This reality, of two diverging churches, two trains going in different directions—the Novus Ordo Church, and the Church of tradition: the New Church of Fr. Warren, jettisoning that “unhealthy and out-of-date theology” (his actual words) vs. the unchanging Magisterial Church of Fr. Illo; the church of dissolveable marriage vs. the true eternal Church that protects the Catholic marriage bond—these are present realities.
For example, German Card. Paul Josef Cordes (in a letter to the editor of Die Tagepost) sharply contradicted Berlin Cardinal Reinhard Marx’s comments of a week ago, esp.Marx’s claim that the “German Church has to make her own decisions regarding marriage” and “the German Church has to teach the Gospel in her own way.”
Said Card. Cordes speaking of Marx:
“A cardinal cannot easily separate the pastoral approach from the teaching,unless he wants to ignore the binding meaning of Christ’s words and the binding words of the Council of Trent.”
So, once again, we have a clear difference between the Novus Ordo Church of Marx and Bergoglio, and the traditional Catholic Church of Burke and Cordes.
It cannot be any clearer.
The reason for the Lack of UNITY within the Church is because many Bishops (& Priests, & Nuns, & Laity) do not adhere to BOTH
1) Sacred Scripture;
2) “Catechism of the Catholic Church” (second edition, dark green cover, 1997 which is part of the Apostolic Constitution, aka: CCC).
In fact it is clear that many have not taken the time to read either in entirety.
Cardinal Burke strongly supports the CCC, and has said so publically on many occasions with the latest being early March, 2015.
” In an interview with the Rorate Caeli blog, Cardinal Raymond Burke called for devotion to the sacred liturgy and the study of the Catechism of the Catholic Church in the midst of confusing times. ”
https://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=24183
Get ready — likely that big change is coming through Pope Francis and the German-Latin American–Dolan/Wuerl/Cupich bishops.
Our hope rests with pray, and intervention of the Holy Ghost and Mary, Queen of All Saints.
The Church will be every bit as totalitarian as any political movement as it seeks to re-define itself, beginning with the Synod in October. It will not be pretty.
And it will mean the end of the Church as we know it… the gates of Hell are getting closer….
Matthew 16:18
Thank you Canisius. You have made me realize why the devil has sent this distraction. But the Lord will turn it to good.
Pray for the conversion of sinners, for workers for the harvest, for the release of souls from Purgatory, for the defeat of Satan, for the triumph of Holy Mother Church. Pray for bishops and priests.
Pray the rosary daily. Offer sacrifices for sinners. Consecrate yourself to the Immaculate Heart.
Heretics can be to the far left or to the far right.
Neither are Faithful Catholics.
Those who deny any of teachings of Jesus and His Church – contained in a Catholic Bible and the CCC together are Catholic heretics.
” The Church’s catechesis has traditionally been structured around these four elements; this includes the CATECHISM of the CATHOLIC CHURCH, which is a fundamental aid for that UNITARY act
with which the Church communicates the entire content of her faith: “all that she herself is, and all that she believes. “ – Pope Francis (Encyclical Letter LUMEN FIDEI, 2013)
Catholics do not have to believe or adhere to the personal opinions of the USCCB Committees, Bishops, or even the Pope.
But they must adhere to the Bible and CCC together in entirety.
(If you do not read the Bible and CCC, you will not know the difference – fact from fiction.)
IGNORANCE & MORTAL SIN:
CCC: ” 1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility.
This is the case when a man takes little trouble to find out what is true and good,
or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.
In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.”
LAZINESS for not reading the Bible and CCC will not pass muster as an excuse at our particular judgment at our own deaths.
Paul well said!
Ann Malley you lie again in your post of March 13, 2015 at 11:47 am.
Pope Francis has put out NO OFFICIAL Document on the reception of Holy Communion for those in Mortal Sin.
If you believe otherwise, send us a link to the Official Church Document.
Eva, please try reading what is written instead of jumping to rash and erroneous pronouncement.
I wrote:
That said, if the OFFICIAL position taken by Pope Francis after the October ’15 synod says that pastors can give Holy Communion to those divorced and remarried Catholics without benefit of annulment and/or a vow to live as brother/sister, what then would Cardinal Burke’s ‘resistance’ be? It would be resistance against an OFFICIAL position of the Church.
The above statement says ‘if’, Eva. God bless you, but you may want to tone down the zeal.
Just to clarify: No one, not Cardinal Kasper or Cardinal Baldiserri or the German bishops, are talking about allowing all or even most or even many divorced and remarried Catholics to receive Holy Communion. They are talking about this only in very limited circumstances. There seems to be necessary repentance and penance before being allowed to take Communion. As it has been pointed out, the Catholic Church already permits this if the two people live as brother and sister and it will not cause scandal. We may hear the specifics of the proposals at the Synod in October.
…just to clarify, Anonymous, the German Bishop’s conference is talking about taking matters (whatever they may be) into their own hands. And since there are already practices in place such as you mention, then the above assertion by the Bishops, a rather bold pronouncement at that, would indicate they have more than what is already allowed in mind. Otherwise, there would have been no need to make any pronouncement at all.
And, yes, we will hear/see more specifics come October.
I am not sure what you mean by pronouncement. Nothing has been instituted. There is a proposal in which “individual, specifically delineated” cases could be permitted and there was an indication that this was already being done. It is not being done in defiance of the Church or the Pope.
The admittance of divorced and remarried Catholics to communion after their sex life has ceased has been going on since way before Vatican II. I have not seen in these proposals a reference to that. It seems to be more a conscience thing. Part of the reason it is of concern is the indefiniteness of it.
Personally, I do not support the German bishops in any proposal that will weaken the Church’s position on the indissolubility of marriage. I do not support the use of the internal forum solution now. I am all for mercy but I think when you make exceptions to the rules a lot more people break the rules. I also think it is unfair to all who have suffered in their marriages because of the Church’s teachings but they will get their reward.
“Ann Malley” is essentially correct: the key statement issued by German Cardinal Marx is that the German bishops are “not just a subsidiary of Rome”. What does Marx mean by this?
1. Are Germans free to interpret scripture/Catholic doctrine as they wish? This is probably what Marx meant, although it is unclear. Typical to their national tradition, German bishops do not like the Catholic hierarchical tradition (unless Germans are at the top, but then, they were very disrespectful of Pope Benedict, so it must be something else).
2. Are Germans free to control their Catholic Brand as they see fit? Now we are getting somewhere: architecture, liturgy, and popular issues should all be left to the will of the Teutons. Why is this? Is it sensitivity, compassion, mercy?
3.. No — it is all — all — about Money! Shock and Awe!! To be Catholic and fully receive its sacraments, it is necessary to pay tax to the State, which in turn “reimburses” the Church in Germany (and elsewhere) a considerable sum every year. But, many people who no longer believe what the Church teaches — not surprising as they were likely never properly taught — are declaring themselves “not Catholic” and refusing to pay up. This is why Marx and Kasper and the other phony German prelates — who should be, are really are, Lutherans at heart — demand changes to Church “discipline”. Then they can sell this to their German flock in the hopes that they will stay — and Pay!
Ann Malley, in your post of March 13, at 3:06 pm –
Your false public ‘speculation’ about Cardinal Burke in a public posting makes you guilty of rash judgment and calumny.
Just because you couch your statements using “IF” does not mean that you are not trying to plant seeds of schism and/or heresy in the minds of the public.
Resisting sin is not the same as resisting the Church. This is a concept you personally have difficulty with.
You are not a mind-reader. Stick to the facts, please. – Only things you can prove.
And further your speculation is
BETH, you give me too much credit.
You should redirect your admonishments regarding the word “IF” to Cardinal Burke. Either that or just read up a little and slowly. For “IF” you don’t understand that what the good Cardinal is proposing is resisting an official document he anticipates “MAY” come forth from the next Synod, an action that would constitute resisting the Church (by your implied definition), then you aren’t getting what he said. Then again, I don’t think you want to understand Cardinal Burke. It’s scary. But your self soothing attempt to say that is just resisting sin, not an ‘official’ proclamation of the Church is just that, self-soothing behavior.
That’s just a guess on my part, BETH. But considering your convoluted understanding of what the Cardinal has said, well, it is precisely how your copy reads. For whereas you concern yourself with mind reading, I actually read what people write and listen to what they actually say.
Stop using Cardinal Burke. He has never said he would resist and official document. You misunderstand Cardinal Burke because your point of view is not that of a faithful Catholic.
Cardinal Burke loves, obeys and supports Pope Francis.
Cardinal Burke in Rorate Caeli interview: I was answering a hypothetical question. Some people have tried to interpret it as an attack on Pope Francis, which it wasn’t at all.
Cardinal Burke never said he would resist any OFFICIAL Document.
It is interesting how people like you Ann Malley (a schismatic) interpret things in light of their own sins (your support for the SSPX).
Then you spread your lies by posting.
I read the article, and Cardinal Burke would never leave the Catholic Faith.
Stating “if” is how one poses a hypothetical, Anonymous. Nobody is using Cardinal Burke. And nobody is attacking Francis. There is no fidelity contest here. Please, get out of the school yard, and look to the reality of defending the Faith. That is what Cardinal Burke is saying he will do. And that, Anonymous, is all a certain other Catholic organization is doing despite your continued misunderstanding and calumny.
Regarding the ‘point of sin’, Anonymous, Cardinal Burke is specifically indicating that to ‘not resist’, even something ‘official’ that was opposite to the words of Our Lord with regard to marriage, would be sinful. You may not want to understand that that is what he is saying, but that is what he is saying. The Cardinal’s statements are a hypothetical “if” at this time, but stated very clearly due to the serious nature of the materials discussed and foisted upon the Church via the the Oct ’14 synod.
God bless you, but the time for slinging slurs and hiding from that which is scary is passed.
So you are intimating that Cardinal Burke would not resist a bogus Synod document? Good grief, Anonymous, but you should apologize for besmirching the virtue of such a strong and faithful prelate.
Sandy, no, Cardinal Burke would not leave the Catholic Faith. That is why he would resist. My apologies for ascribing the name Anonymous to you in my previous post.
Now I get where this is going. Ann Malley, you are just hoping for a “bogus synod document” so that Cardinal Burke will join SSPX. It took me a while to get it, I guess I need more coffee.
No need for +Burke to join the SSPX,YFC. This isn’t a fight for market share or head count. That’s why all of the blind bullying is so completely absurd. Running on fear is never a good thing.
Cardinal Burke would not leave the Catholic Church.
You try to make a distinction between the Catholic Faith and the Catholic Church. It is one of you insidious errors.
Bullying! Ann Malley, people are trying to save your soul.
And protect other souls from your errors.
Pray over things instead of just reacting with smart remarks.
I challenge you to post only those things which are strictly true-not an interpretation or a speculation or a judgement or a fear or an imagination.
“Now I get where this is going. Ann Malley, you are just hoping for a “bogus synod document” so that Cardinal Burke will join SSPX. It took me a while to get it, I guess I need more coffee.” = There is nothing bogus about all of the disobedient YFC’s within the Church. Their evil is not imaginary, it exists.
The YFC’s within the Church do not need more coffee. They still don’t get where THEY are going for their undermining of the Catholic faith in such an evil manner. Obstinate sinfulness has the many YFC’s so blinded and they have talked themselves out of the existence of the inevitable destination. That is… unless they repent and sadly many won’t. Habitual mortal sin hyped up on a caffein overdose is merely a speedier bullet train headed directly for hell.
Thank you, Catherine. And thank you, Anonymous.
I challenge you, if your efforts are what you describe, to stop your reactionary posts. Otherwise your behavior is bullying. Much like Abeca’s is threatening. Truly stop and pray over what you are doing. If your desire is to bring souls to Christ, shouldn’t you behave as He did?
I think you are interpreting what Cardinal Burke said through the lens of a schismatic. Oh, I am sorry, you do not like that word. OK, through the lens of someone who feels it is not just OK but good to attend illicit Masses. Cardinal Burke is a loyal son of the Church. No one would interpret Cardinal Burke’s remarks to mean that he would resist to the point of sin.
“…No one would interpret Cardinal Burke’s remarks to mean that he would resist to the point of sin.” It is never sinful to resist that which is sin, Anonymous, even if it comes by way of “OFFICIAL” channels. That’s a concept you don’t seem capable of understanding, but thank goodness Cardinal Burke does. I only pray the majority of heirarchs at the October ’15 Synod do as well.
The EVIL ONE must love all the division that has taken place on this site!
HE just loves it when we are divided among ourselves!!!
Let’s all try a little charity my brothers and sisters in Christ.
I agree.
The disunity and those who promote it are very sinful.
Satan is very happy with this disunity.
Stick to the Bible and CCC folks – for the truth of the Faith rather than personal opinions.
…. that is why when folks incorrectly assert that others are schismatic and/or in schism – or going so far as to call others ‘not Catholic’ – without proper authority and/or an official declaration from Rome it is damaging to Catholic unity, BETH and Elizabeth. For while you state that you want official documentation, nowhere in the official and last pronouncement of Pope Emeretis Benedict XVI does it state that the Society is in schism. And the very nature of an ‘irregular situation’ would indicate that the group in question is Catholic.
So while you state, “..The disunity and those who promote it are very sinful.
Satan is very happy with this disunity.” Please, learn the facts and address your hauteur regarding what pleases Satan to those who threaten, bully by way of ignorant declaration of that which isn’t true, and falsely persecute in misguided zeal even as Rome herself courts said group and very clearly calls them Catholic.
So indeed, stop looking to personal opinions. That would be refreshing.
You refuse to worship in a Catholic Church and you are pretending to care about Catholic unity.
What will you stoop to next?
“No canonical status in the Church” Not a Catholic organization.
Pope Benedict did not use the term “irregular.’ He said the ministers of the SSPX “do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church.”
Ann Malley, although you might have been baptized as such, by your OWN posts – you clearly are no longer Catholic. You have exposed yourself.
You personally are a heretic and a schismatic.
And you do not attend a Catholic Church that has ANY Canonical status within the Church – and this includes Mass and the Sacraments at this time.
We do owe you thanks by your schismatic posts though which required others to respond so everyone will know the status of the SSPX and will not be lead astray.
QUOTE: ” The fact that the Society of Saint Pius X does not possess a canonical status in the Church is not, in the end, based on disciplinary but on doctrinal reasons.
As long as the Society does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church.
There needs to be a distinction, then, between the disciplinary level, which deals with individuals as such, and the doctrinal level, at which ministry and institution are involved.
In order to make this clear once again: until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers – even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty – do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church. ” – Pope Benedict in 2009.
https://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/letters/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20090310_remissione-scomunica.html
Leigh, I thank God that your pronouncements regarding who is or who is not Catholic mean absolutely nothing. As for being informative, however, this venture on CCD has only confirmed the in-depth lack of Catholic education of many who believe themselves faithful to the Catholic Church and Her “OFFICIAL” proclamations…or even what that means. That is precisely why those who attend the Fr. Warren’s parish are such easy prey to be misled.
You speak of the need for distinction without having any capacity for discerning, save for parroting what you have been told in a manner that divides and shuts down accurate and necessary conversation. And again, I’ll say that those who lamented the “martyrdom”of St. Joan of Arc were “told” that she was “officially” a heretic. She wasn’t, Leigh. But that is what the charge the hierarchy used for political expediency.
So go ahead and spread division under the auspices of protecting the faithful. There is nothing misleading in stating that the Society is 100% Catholic although currently in an irregular situation. You have done nothing but join the ranks of those intent on making that reality into something more than it is and subsequently ascribing motives to others that simply aren’t there.
So I am glad that folks are reading the official declaration regarding the Society. Nowhere in it is there a declaration of schism, heresy, or not being Catholic. But the heretical ideas and misleading of the Faithful is already afoot right inside the Catholic Church.
Please give your definition of Catholic.
“My” definition and/or “your” definition is not germane to the conversation, Anonymous. Rome’s definition is. And that is why, especially when attempting to chasten others for not listening to Rome, you should look to Rome where the Society and those who attend their chapels have consistently been called what they are – Catholic.
Your insistence otherwise negates your own assertions of fidelity.
“Please give your definition of Catholic.” = A Catholic is a follower of Christ and his true Church and a Catholic dies not deliberately call hurtful names to Christ’s sheep who have been deliberately scattered by wolves in sheep clothing. And if you do not believe that this can happen deliberately then you are calling Our Lord a liar. Which one of you name callers wants to call Jesus a liar or an exaggerator? There are many who still have a vocation or a job because of always remaining completely silent when Our Lord’s churches were being sacked and teachings watered down. Martyrdom is for others to hear about. If you are still close buddy friends with absolutely everyone in authority on a parish or diocesan level it is because you remained completely silent when you watched Our Lord be offended time after time. A Catholic shows as much love, patience, encouragement and kindness to the SSPX visitors on this website as the “pastoral” kindness that they have shown to those who sell, encourage and defend perversion. I sincerely believe that if the SSPX saw the unity in standing up for the fullness of truth, then there would be a greater desire to safely return to a diocese. Now that would be a gift instead of the Pandora’s box of so-called gifts that are currently being discussed. The sharks who name call have their various underhanded reasons for name calling.
I’m sorry but I asked Ann Malley what her definition of Catholic is. It is used differently by different people.
The term has been incorporated into the name of the largest Christian communion, the Catholic Church (also called the Roman Catholic Church). However, many other Christians use the term “Catholic” (sometimes with a lower-case letter “c”) to refer more broadly to the whole Christian Church or to all believers in Jesus Christ regardless of denominational affiliation.
The Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, and some Methodists believe that their churches are “Catholic” in the sense that they are in continuity with the original universal church founded by the Apostles. However, each church defines the scope of the “Catholic Church” differently. For instance, the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox churches each maintain that their own denomination is identical with the original universal church, from which all other denominations broke away.
That was from wikipedia.
Ann Malley, I am glad to hear you say that it is Rome’s definition of what is Catholic. Would you please give that definition?
Anonymous, Protestant (other Christian faiths) do not use the name “Catholic” when they refer to the religion that they belong to.
They only use catholic (lower case) because of the Creed that is part of the Christian Faith – (as stated by our Catholic Faith).
Definition of “Catholic” from Doctrine of the Faith – – –
CCC: ” 830 The word “catholic” means “universal,” in the sense of “according to the totality” or “in keeping with the whole.”
The Church is catholic in a double sense:
First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. “Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church.”
In her subsists the fullness of Christ’s body united with its head; this implies that she receives from him “the fullness of the means of salvation” which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession.
The Church was, in this fundamental sense, catholic on the day of Pentecost and will always be so until the day of the Parousia.
CCC: ” 831 Secondly, the Church is catholic because she has been sent out by Christ on a mission to the whole of the human race:
All men are called to belong to the new People of God. This People, therefore, while remaining one and only one, is to be spread throughout the whole world and to all ages in order that the design of God’s will may be fulfilled.
….the responses here and the lack of understanding (or even the willingness to engage logically) offer a very clear insight into the confusion within Holy Mother Church, Catherine. Folks don’t recognize the enemy, and I think that’s by design. Makes the upcoming Oct Synod all the more significant.
God bless
Anonymous, write to Rome for Her definition of Catholic. Perhaps then you will cease calling Catholics anything but because of your own personal bias and insistence that “you” are saving souls by bullying others with half truths and no thorough understanding.
I always am bemused by the vigorous attacks on the SSPX and therefore Ann Malley as “schismatic” and/or claims that some of their sacraments are “invalid”—when our present sovereign pontiff recently canonized the Armenian Orthodox saint, St. Gregory of Narek (d. 1003), whose Church rejected the Council of Chalcedon’s definition of Christ’s divine and human natures. St Gregory of Narek is also actually cited in the CCC (n.2678).
So, if the SSPX reject elements of our Blessed 2nd Vatican Council for their deviation from traditional Catholic teaching, no problem, correct? No: this is something to “crow” about (or reflexively quack about), regarding their “disobedience” to “accepted Catholic belief.” Ha.
And Liborius excommunicated St. Athanasius, St. John of the Cross was excommunicated for a time by the Spanish papal nuncio, St Ignatius was called several times before the Inquisition for “heresy”, and St Joan of Arc was declared excommunicate and apostate and not “rehabilitated” for centuries. And what about the Dominican Savonarola?
We are due for an Anonymous Novus Ordo Duck flyover any time now. Were I a fan of Cirque de Soleil (I am not), I would say that the Anonymous Ducks can far out-contort them in their convenient arrangement of “the truth.”
So Steve Phoenix, you are saying that doctrinal error should be tolerated?
…reading “Catholic” history should be a requirement along with Scriptures and the CCC. But much like the push in American “education” circles, actual history is frowned upon in lieu of social studies. And so the ducks close ranks and quack away, waddling hither and yon, believing that unity is some human construct that can be legislated away from the Truth.
Steve Phoenix, none of that is even relevant.
The preists and bishops of the SSPX are not excommunicated for rejecting elements of Vatican II.
They are excommunicated because they are forbidden to say public Masses and they do. They are excommunicated because they do not have faculties to absolve sins in the confessional but they hear confessions. It has nothing to do with their beliefs.
Just because other people were excommunicated and became saints. does not mean they will. We can hope, but none of the examples committed the same sin as these. These priests are in mortal sin. St. Joan of Arc was not. She was not even a priest. Are there any examples of priests who died in an excommunicated state for setting up there own church and having Mass when they were forbidden (that is, they did not return to the Church) who were canonized?
and the Armenian Orthodox Church isn’t Catholic.
Ann Malley, so if you don’t know the definition of Catholic, how can you know if your independent chapel is Catholic?
They told you they were?
Hence there are but three classes of persons excluded from the Church’s pale: infidels, heretics and schismatics, and excommunicated persons. Infidels are outside the Church because they never belonged to, and never knew the Church, and were never made partakers of any of her Sacraments. Heretics and schismatics are excluded from the Church, because they have separated from her and belong to her only as deserters belong to the army from which they have deserted. It is not, however, to be denied that they are still subject to the jurisdiction of the Church, inasmuch as they may be called before her tribunals, punished and anathematised. Finally, excommunicated persons are not members of the Church, because they have been cut off by her sentence from the number of her children and belong not to her communion until they repent.
Anonymous, your extrapolation regarding excommunication has absolutely no bearing on reality. That seems to be your error.
Steve Phoenix, I do not know if you are aware of this, but according to the teachings on the SSPX website, being declared a saint does NOT mean that a person is in Heaven.
Ann Malley, the Pope could make a declaration of their automatic excommunication.
I can just imagine the excuses you would make for an abortionist. “It was a crisis.”
No supposed crisis justifies abortion or a suspended priest saying a public Mass.
V2 Church — One holy catholic and apostolic church? Laugh, you got to be kidding. It’s more like a Lutheran and Anglican smorgas church. How sad. Tired of all the endless stream of V2 Church controversy and irreverence, the man-centeredness? It sure used to shake up my RC Faith and inability to justify all the errors. Simply put they can’t be justified, and we only fool ourselves if we try. It’s time to face the grave state that the V2 Church is in. It is in the end times, it has apostacized as predicted in the New Testament, and by Blessed Mother in some of her RCC approved apparitions. We all do have a choice! To become RC again, or remain protestantized.
Pray to God to lead you back to His real Roman Catholic Church. Go ahead, don’t be afraid. You may not feel that is right, but it is when God is directing you. He is our Creator, our Father, the One and Only One God in 3 Divine Persons we wish to please,not man at God’s expense! Seek and you shall find; you will be glad you did. God will answer your prayers, and lead you to a truly Roman Catholic Parish, especially with Blessed Mother’s intercession by your saying several rosaries with love and devotion to God, Her Son, and the Holy Ghost. May God bless you on your new and wonder filled journey. Just be resigned to do His holy will and you will be happier! :~) I know by experience as a Roman Catholic in a Parish practicing the Latin Sacraments and Traditions. You too can find such a beautiful parish, hopefully in your neighborhood by typing in traditio in your web’s browser.
The Catechism of Trent
ARTICLE IX : “I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH; THE COMMUNION OF SAINTS”
The Importance Of This Article
With what great diligence pastors ought to explain to the faithful the truth of this ninth Article will be easily seen, if we attend chiefly to two considerations.
First, as St. Augustine observes, the Prophets spoke more plainly and openly of the Church than of Christ, foreseeing that on this a much greater number may err and be deceived than on the mystery of the Incarnation. For in after ages there would not be wanting wicked men who, like the ape that would fain pass for a man, would claim that they alone were Catholics, and with no less impiety than effrontery assert that with them alone is the Catholic Church.
The second consideration is that he whose mind is strongly impressed with the truth taught in this Article, will easily escape the awful danger of heresy. For a person is not to be called a heretic as soon as he shall have offended in matters of faith; but he is a heretic who, having disregarded the authority of the Church, maintains impious opinions with pertinacity. Since, therefore, it is impossible that anyone be infected with the contagion of heresy, so long as he holds what this Article proposes to be believed, let pastors use every diligence that the faithful, having known this mystery and guarded against the wiles of Satan, may persevere in the true faith.
Harvey, you should never justify error.
Irreverence, sometimes. You make reparation. Fatima, remember?
Man-centered? Not the Mass, the ministries to the poor and the ill, yes, but Jesus told us to do that.
I was at a Lutheran Church once. It was not like our Church.
I have never been to an Anglican Church.
There IS one, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
It sounds like your faith was shaken because you did not keep you eyes on Christ. Or maybe your interpretation of some things led you astray.
Pray as you say. It may take a miracle.
Harvey, you are one of the right wing heretics (and there are left wing heretics as well).
Both forms of the Mass OF (aka Ordinary Form, Novus Ordo). and
the EF (aka Extraordinary Form, Latin, Traditional) are Holy when they are said using the correct rubrics for the Liturgy.
GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal ) for the OF Mass, &
the 1962 Missal for the EF Mass.
https://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/
What the Pope and all Seminaries need to crack down on is the ad-libbing / abuses by Priests (and the silly actions /responses by the Laity) during the Liturgy.
* * * * * Vatican II Document – “SACOSANCTUM CONSILIUM” – Dogmatic Constitution –
QUOTE: 22.3 ” Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority.” UNQUOTE. * * * * *
Far too many posters have not read the V II docs or GIRM, and they make ignorant and heretical statements.
They post based upon hearsay, error, and the opinion of those who do the work of Satan.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/index.htm
All violations of the Mass should be reported to the specific Diocese Bishop.
You are guilty yourself if you personally are aware of abuses and you do not report them. You have a duty to do so. CCC: 907
Getting back to the article, and the Priest PAUL WARREN’s public statement.
He is a heretic, and a liar. He purposely misleads the people of his parish.
– 1) V II docs said nothing about Altar Girls.
– 2) V II docs said nothing about “liberation and inclusive movements”.
– 3) The Church NEVER discredited the Value of Girls (women), and always honored the Blessed Mother;
and taught she was the only sinless person other than God (Christ).
– 4) “Archaic theology” – this is a heretical statement by itself. Warren has no authority to try to discredit Church teaching nor Church tradition.
– 5) If ALL the Administrators and Teachers adhere to Sacred Scripture and the CCC – good for him. But – he appears that Warren does not adhere to Sacred Scripture and the CCC himself, therefore he is no judge.
He must take the log out of his own eye before judging others.
– 6) Based upon the cumulation of his personal public statements in this article it appears that WARREN does not encourage those in his parish to read the Bible and the CCC, and therefore WARREN feigns obedience to Pope Francis.
This feigning of obedience must be pointed out by all.
In fact – WARREN is very DISOBEDIENT.
Pope Francis has specifically asked us to read both the Bible and CCC.
“….. let us ask ourselves if we have actually taken a few steps to get to know Christ and the truths of faith more, by reading and meditating on the Scriptures, studying the Catechism, steadily approaching the Sacraments.” – Pope Francis , May 15, 2013.
and also Pope Francis’ Encyclical Letter LUMEN FIDEI of 2013.
Fr. Paul WARREN therefore is a Cafeteria Priest – he merely picks and chooses what he wants those in his parish to know; hiding the rest.
Anonymous, any Priest or Bishop or even any Pope – who practices the “internal forum” – allowing persons who choose to continue committing Mortal Sin to receive Holy Communion
violates Sacred Scripture and the Doctrine of the Faith.
And is a remote participant in Sacrilege, not to mention a remote participant in the ongoing Mortal sins of the persons with whom he has used the “internal forum”. (CCC 1868)
1 Cor 11:27-30 – condemnation for receiving unworthily;
Mt 7:6 – Jesus on Profaning the Holy.
CCC: ” 1451 Among the penitent’s acts contrition occupies first place.
Contrition is “sorrow of the soul
and detestation for the sin committed,
together with the resolution not to sin again .”
CCC: ” 1415 Anyone who desires to receive Christ in Eucharistic communion must be in the state of grace.
Anyone aware of having sinned mortally must not receive communion without having received absolution in the sacrament of penance. ”
CCC: “…….. Because this bread and wine have been made Eucharist …
no one may take part in it unless he believes that
what we teach is true,
has received baptism for the forgiveness of sins and new birth,
and lives in keeping with what Christ taught. “
The “internal forum solution” is supposed to be for those who no longer commit the mortal sin of adultery. But I suspect it may be abused. No proof of that, though. A while ago, Kenneth Fischer said that his aunt has been granted that disposition.
The Priest Paul Warren is evil.
The handbook published by the Abp states: “that teachers not publicly contradict Catholic teaching on sexual morality and abortion .”
Apparently Priest WARREN wants teachers (and other employees paid by Catholics for a Catholic organization)
to – – – – “publicly contradict Catholic teaching on sexual morality and abortion .”
This guy needs to be defrocked !
255 comments.
Ann Malley is the new Mark from PA.
Everyone, Criticize me if you wish; but in one generation from now, the V2 church will change again and again, conforming to society, to please society at the expense of pleasing God just as it has been doing the last 2 or even 3 generations. The V2 church will change like BXVIth publicly stated, “it will be a smaller church”. Some of the conservatives will not like it and leave going wherever losing their V2 and christian faith, some will return to traditional RC Parishes after seeing the light, and the remainder will love the changes accepting them with open arms much like the Jews did making a golden calf idol and worshipping it while Moses was on Mt. Sinai receiving the 10 Commandments. By then these liberals will likely not know or at least recite what the 10 Commandments are, but they’ll boast fully and forcefully claiming they are the Catholic Church. By then there will be fewer V2 vocations resulting in many seminaries and smaller and rural congregations being closed. By then there will be fewer V2 schools and hospitals. Where will the V2 nuns be? Non-existent. Where do you see them today? They are in thin numbers, and unrecognizable. Oh yes, V2 facilities will look more sterile and increasingly emptier. How can this be a liberal might ask? Just wait and see. Pray the rosary, Jesus will remain with His true bride, Holy Mother the Church and she will stand the test of time. Watch the Roman Catholic Parishes practicing tradition grow! But please don’t compare her growth with the protestant and pagan churches growing, because that is like mixing sweet oranges and bitter herbs. Pray the rosary God will guide your soul. We are in the end times.
The faithful remnant will remain in the Catholic Church, practicing the traditional faith, upholding the traditional teachings and praying the traditional prayers.
Harvey, stop pretending. You can not see into the future.
People, I am not pretending.
Everything I have said has a track record since V2. Check it out! All the subjects I have touched on are causing a terrible and fast decline in the V2 Church. No smoke and mirrors here, just clear facts! What will make the declining trend change in the opposite direction or even level out? Only God! The road the V2 Church is on is not only going to change as it has no intentions on going back to tradition i.e. God-centered, but will continue to get worse as it is man-centered. Fixing man’s earthly problems, getting focused on mankind’s temporal happiness here on earth rather than eternal salvation. It has been going on this way for the last 50 years. It is not pretending, it is for real. Many souls have suffered for it and more to come. Our Lord said, “By their fruits you shall know them”. and the demise of what was once Roman Catholic is all on the shoulders of what it is today, the V2 Church. But don’t take my word for it, investigate the last 50 years and watch as the future unfolds.
Watch what the outcome, the controversy that will be at and after the next V2 Synod! Watch and listen how liberal ideas foreign and counter to Roman Catholic teaching will be accepted. Who 60 years ago would have ever dreamt of altar girls or altar women? Or communion in the hand?
If the Synod permits communion for divorced and remarried, along with so called “gay couples” you will see real and actually schism that’s already there… the only thing that will stop the Synod is the end of this Papacy
Canisius, the Synod cannot do that. It is just a Synod; it can recommend, not institute.
Pope Francis is not going to be around that much longer.
I am thinking that this is possibly part of the path for Cardinal Burke to become more widely known among the Cardinals who will vote in the next conclave.
Pray and wait on the Lord.
Never leave the Church. Schism is a mortal sin. I believe it is an intrinsic evil. Pray over this. Satan tempts everyone.
And the schism will be because of SACRILEGE against the Body and Blood of Our Lord.
No one may receive Holy Communion while choosing to continue committing Mortal Sin.
CCC 1451, 1415, 1355.
Those who are pretending that being Pastoral or Merciful allows SACRILEGE is a LIAR and tool of the Devil.
(I don’t care how high ranking a clergy he may be.)
Remember folks – this really about SACRILEGE.
Schism is a mortal sin. There is no justification for it. Don’t you pray the Fatima prayer after Mass or after Communion?
The Synod can be used for good, if there are enough Faithful Bishops are in attendance.
This is the only way there will be UNITY within the Church.
1) ALL those Bishops who have not been doing their jobs by teaching everything and 100% in accord with the Bible and CCC should admit these sins publically.
2) They must REQUIRE that all Seminaries, all Catholic Colleges, and all 11th and 12th graders in high school use the Bible and the CCC in entirety as their main theology texts.
3) Then they should strongly enforce the reading of the Bible and CCC by all literate Catholics world-wide.
Prominently advertising this on all Diocese web sites and publications, all Diocese web sites, and from the pulpit several times each year.
This is how one acquires UNITY, and supports the Family.
Not some wishy washy – this and that. That is different in every Diocese – depending on the sinful inclinations of the Bishop.
What has God been doing in the Church for the last 50 years?
Saving souls. And there is no other path of salvation.
Does having an altar girl hurt someone’s salvation?
I do believe that there are priests who do things that they should not do.
I think there are priests who’s love for novelty has adversely affected, not the Church, but those persons with whom they have had contact. But not necessarily to the point of the loss of salvation.
All that was once in the Church is still there. You should pray over what is necessary for salvation. And what costs one’s salvation.
You may be making mountains out of molehills. Hebrew 13:8
And you might want to read further.