The following comes from a release issued on January 23 by Una Voce Ventura.
On December 8, 2012, Rev. Thomas Elewaut, the recently assigned pastor at Mission San Buenaventura informed, via a letter, the parishioners who attend the Extraordinary Form 1:30 p.m. Traditional Latin Mass that he planned to see the Mass that has been held at the Mission for more than15 years ended and that he desired that his parishioners attached to this venerable form of the Mass find a new parish where it might be offered. He also informed these parishioners that he will not allow the Triduum in the Extraordinary Form, contrary to the allowance for just this in Universae Ecclesiae and the past history of providing for a Triduum in the Extraordinary Form. It is Una Voce Ventura’s position that the reasons given can be easily addressed and are insufficient to justify the ending of the Mass, and are contrary to the intent of Summorum Pontificum. (See ADDENDUM for the text of Father Elewaut’s December 8, 2012, letter)
On January 6, 2013 he publicly invited all interested parishioners to a meeting where he read the December 8, 2012 letter and answered questions. No opportunity was given to the parishioners to try to remedy or mitigate the concerns Fr. Elewaut expressed in his letter. Despite receiving a point by point reply to his concerns during this meeting, Fr. Elewaut told the parishioners that his decision “is a fait accompli.” The following was printed in the January 20, 2013 parish bulletin.
From the Desk of Father Tom:
“Two weeks ago I met with Faithful members of the Extraordinary Form Latin Mass to request that we find an alternative parish to host this Mass. This request is based on my observation that both the Mission parish and the Latin Mass would be better served at another location given that liturgical appointments in the sanctuary (some of which are historical) must be moved each week and visitors have limited to access to the Mission on Sunday afternoons. Many of our visitors have traveled from throughout the state to complete the required fourth grade Mission project. Understandably, relocation has caused some anguish among Faithful members of the Extraordinary Form Latin Mass. It may take several weeks if not months to find a suitable home for this Mass.”
Subsequent to these events, Una Voce Ventura and concerned parishioners that attend the Extraordinary Form Mass have met several times to review options and have engaged in positive conversations with several parishes where the Extraordinary Form parishioners would be welcome. We are awaiting a sign of approval from his Excellency Archbishop Gomez so that we might assist the parishioners of Mission San Buenaventura in establishing a stable home for the Extraordinary Form Mass. While all are saddened and understandably upset to see the Extraordinary Form Mass set to end for now at Mission San Buenaventura, Una Voce Ventura is encouraged that several other parishes are interested in offering the Extraordinary Form Mass and we stand ready to help with what resources we have available.
It is a foundational goal and a recurrent prayer of our chapter that “through the intercession of St. Bonaventure and Blessed Padre Serra, the peace, order, and beauty of the Traditional Latin Mass may be restored to our churches.” Please pray for prudence, patience, charity and a speedy and suitable resolution to this regrettable situation.
Una Voce Ventura
To read original release, click here.
This decision by the new parish priest to expel a stable group of faithful (coetus fidelium) that has worshiped for 15 years at San Buenaventura Mission goes directly against the wishes of the Holy Father in the two laws of the Church that regulate the use of the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, Summorum Pontificum and Universae Ecclesiae. The Los Angeles Archdiocese has been very unwelcoming to the traditional Latin Mass, it is time for a change.
Archbishop José Gomez or Bishop Thomas Curry should intervene to right this wrong. As stated in Article 14 of Universae Ecclesiae: “It is the task of the Diocesan Bishop to undertake all necessary measures to ensure respect for the forma extraordinaria of the Roman Rite, according to the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum”.
If you live in Los Angeles and find this termination of the Latin Mass unjust, please write:
Excellency Archbishop José Gomez
Archdiocese of Los Angeles
3424 Wilshire Boulevard
Los Angeles, CA 90010-2202
You know what? If say 1,000 people wrote ABp. Gomez a well-crafted letter on this matter if might actually do some good. But I suspect the letters will never be written.
People like to complain. I strongly suspect this has nothing to do with the new pastor “hating” the EF Mass. I suspect it has to do with friction between the entrenched liturgical laity at the Old Mission and those that coordinate the EF Mass there.
The need for control in parish churches by some is deeply sickening. This is a time the EF Community should rise-up. How about a half dozen setting up a meeting with Bp. Curry and then ABp. Gomez if needed.
It seems like “conservatives” have such a terribly difficult time working within the system. They want to run away from problems. They want to complain but they don’t have the resolve to really work through the problems.
Your suggestions, Rodda, are about fifty years behind the times.
My suggestion is nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Rodda you have no business giving your input on this matter because from what I know, you are not one who would understand or defend the Latin Mass. Your opinions don’t matter, they only spell hate to me….I think you do more harm than good, you do more dividing than uniting.
I see no problem with Rodda’s comment. In fact, it’s rather astute, if not insightful in identifying the lazy inertia and the sense of entitlement in some of the EF adherents.
And Abeca, your comment that Rodda’s opinions “don’t matter” is blatantly arrogant and unChristian.
Advice without knowledge of the situation is a dangerous business – the approach through the system has been/ is already in process.
Its not reeeeely dangerous because there are guards
Cardinal Rigali, who is a firm believer that all priests should be able to say both forms, witnessed that in his time as bishop of St. Louis and Philadelphia, there were very few requests for the Extraordinary Form. About 100 people attend this Mass in a parish of 3000 registered families (although 1800 is the number given of those who are attending Mass).
Working within the system is extremely important.
IF there is enough interest within a Diocese or Parish for the “Extraordinary Form” of the Mass (Traditional/Latin) then there should be both Forms of the Mass.
There is room for both Forms without excluding either. Several parishes in the US have both Forms at different times. It is surprising to see all the young families interested in the EF form.
When seeing a Bishop or a Priest, be certain to bring your documentation –
numbers of persons interested via petition or other documented means, and
a printed copy of:
“APOSTOLIC LETTER given MOTU PROPRIO SUMMORUM PONTIFICUM on the USE OF THE ROMAN LITURGY PRIOR to the REFORM of 1970”.
” Art. 5, §1 In parishes where a group of the faithful attached to the previous liturgical tradition stably exists, the parish priest should willingly accede to their requests to celebrate Holy Mass according to the rite of the 1962 Roman Missal.
He should ensure that the good of these members of the faithful is harmonized with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish, under the governance of the bishop in accordance with Canon 392, avoiding discord and favouring the unity of the whole Church.”
Always remember that both Forms of the Mass are Holy, and not to be disparaged.
Jon, I don’t think that the EF mentality is one of entitlement, but rather that of a group that has been unfairly cowed for decades. This ‘lazy inertia and entitlement’ of which you speak is very similar to that of an elephant that, tethered from birth, begins to believe that it has neither the strength, the power, nor the real will anymore to break free of the bond that makes it captive. It gives up because it believes the lie of the tether around its back leg instead of looking to the reality of its situation. (Very effective to engage psychological warfare when trying to get an exceedingly powerful animal to reject their inherent beauty, strength, and dignity.)
Even calling the Latin Mass the Extraordinary Form is a means of tethering. Leading one to believe that it should be something rare. Like a special chocolate mousse that is a treat for which the faithful should grovel in thanksgiving, but never expect on a regular basis. Oh, no! That would be indulgent.
This is in direct contrast, Jon, to the reality that the TLM was never abrogated (forbidden). Never. Just repressed thanks to the tide of modernism that would rather the old ways just disappear or, at the very least, shut the heck up.
The modern Church is too often behaving like a spoiled young adult who would prefer to put their elderly parents away in a home because they GET IN THE WAY. Especially with their baldly, embarrassing questions about how junior is practicing the Faith. That’s why whenever the old folks are paraded about for the cameras – just to show how kind junior is – they are sufficiently gagged and/or scripted so as to avoid contradiction…. or should I say embarrassment.
You obviously have a lot of hostility toward the Holy Catholic Church.
The things you have said are beyond ridiculous.
To stop the ancient mass because your tourist trade may be diminished is horrific.
If you write to AB Gomez, (and I believe every person who attends the Tridentine mass in the AD of L.A. should) be sure to copy 1. Bishop Curry, Archdiocese Los Angeles, 3424 Wilshire Blvd., Los Angeles, CA 90010-2241; 2. the U.S. Nuncio, AB Vigano, 3339 Massachusetts Avenue Northwest, Washington, D.C., 20008-3610; and 3. President of Ecclesia Dei, AB Gerhard Muller, Palazzo della Congr. per la Dottrina della Fede, 00193 Roma, Piazza del S. Uffizio, 11
This is a direct affront to Pope Benedict, the Roman Catholic Church, every prefect within the entire magisterium, the faith, and all who attend the tridentine. Please procede with this as our blessed Pope Benedict has prescribed.
God bless you angela.
I attended that meeting. We were called by Fr. Elewaut for a meeting with him and he read the letter he wrote to Mark Munoz (see Addendum). After that he just informed us that our Traditional Mass was not welcome at the San Buenaventura Mission anymore. Just like that. That “meeting” was on January 6, 2013. What a happy Epiphany.
People tried to explain that this mass had been given in the mission for 15 years, there was never a problem with the previous pastors and if he had some complaints he should have told us and we would have found a solution. He did not hear anything, just told over and over we had to leave. We asked about the Triduum this year, no, we were not allowed to have it.
Other parishioners tried to explain about the instructions of Pope Benedict XVI about the offering of the Latin Mass, his answers were always the same, our mass was not welcome at the San Buenaventura mission anymore.
I am still in shock and cannot believe this happened. This mass is well attended, people drive long distances to attend this wonderful mass in the beautiful San Buenaventura mission.
Thank you for posting this. I am sorry that this has happened but trust God. I have heard of things like this happening and when the group got to the new Church, it became obvious why God allowed it. Keep praying for God’s will to be done.
Many things happen which God does not will, k. It is absurd to harp that whatever happens is because God allows it. You go through these cycles from excellent insight to the other extreme of boring, empty cliche. You’re making progress though, as your insight is gradually nullifying your cliche mode. Ie stronger insight, weaker cliche.
Skai I agree. Man has free will…..so many times man puts his bad will above God, so the best thing is for people that attend there to fight it. Not to give in to the intimidation. Just because he is a priest does not mean he is perfect, so good charity would be to charitably fight this!
Fight him! Don’t allow his bad will to be nurtured and continue! Do it for Christ! This is unjust behavior! Why remove the mass, the better solution is to remove this priest since he is causing so much havoc to the faithful! BETTER TO REMOVE THE PRIEST AND FIND HIM A PARISH WHERE IT BEST SUITS HIM!
OK so why doesn’t an intelligent, well-spoken group of perhaps a half dozen formally meet with Bishop Curry? Come armed with the facts. Video how long it takes to move and then replace furnishings in the sanctuary. Have documentation showing that other California Missions are every bit as busy on Sundays. The reasons given are malarkey and that can be demonstrated with ease.
If Bishop Curry won’t remedy the situation, set-up another meeting with Archbishop Gomez. Just don’t go off on tangents about “modernism” or Summorum Pontificum. Identify the real issues and tactfully offer real-world solutions.
OK Rodda that sounds a little better…God bless you
This priest is a shill for the bishop. What other conclusion can there be that makes sense. The bishop’s motives probably have something to do with his relationship to Cdl Mahony … the outing of their extreme misdeeds is still under way, and probably it is the EF community that shines the brightest beams of the Light of Christ into their perverse darkness. If this is indeed the case, then there will be more hits. Go RICO, bring in the FBI and whack those pervs.
It sounds like this pastor decided to place the Latin Mass and it’s attendee’s on trial because they are placed in a situation where they have to defend themselves and the mass…..more like an unfair trial that was already decided unfairly.
It’s almost like a situation where the Boys Scouts had their meeting place at a public school for ages but just recently the school decided to not allow them there anymore…..hmmm kinda fishy. Glad they fought it! Now this priest is acting out in an unchristian manner in this Catholic Mission. Now the secular can do cruel things like this but in a Catholic setting, one would hope that it would be more charitable.
I continue to encourage those who go there, to fight this! I wonder what we outsiders can do to help….I hate injustice!
So very sad that the Tridentine Mass cannot be celebrated at San Buenaventura Mission. The modernists again act contrary to papal decrees. Heaven forbid the TLM in any way disrupts the tourists. How heartsick Blessed Junipero Serra would be to see the Novus Ordo instead of the Tridentine Mass that served the Church so well for so many centuries.
Last I checked, this parish, was founded by Fray Junipero Serra. He also celebrated this Mass.
Lastly, Pope Benedict XVI also desires that the 2 Masses learn from each other. Well, so much for that idea.
Why conform! This is why the church is having many issues, people just look away and keep allowing it!
This illustrates the problem trying to deal with a pastor who is above the Pope, who seeks to divide and destroy the traditional Catholic Faith. There is no compromise possible in my experience with these kind of churchmen, wolves in the clothing of sheep.
Yes that is true, that is why the few people who treasure this mass, need to unite and move forward with a good fight….that is not a sin, but something that needs to happen in our church in order to keep our church more faithful!
I don’t live near that church, but if it was my parish, you would be sure that if that was the Mass I wanted to have, I would at least speak up and try to move mountains! If there is real love here, then move mountains!
Matthew 17:20 “JESUS said to them: Because of your unbelief. For, amen I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, Remove from hence hither, and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible to you. “
People do not come from, “all around the state” just to see the Ventura mission. Santa Barbara to the North and San Fernando to the South are far more frequently visited. All were welcomed at the San Fernando Mission where the Extraordinary Form was offered for some 23 years until Msgr. Francis Weber was physically unable to continue. The good Monsignor was previously the pastor of the Ventura mission. In San Fernando bus loads of 4th graders would come during the week.
The new pastor at the Ventura mission should be ashamed to deny the few tourists who are there, between 1:30 to 2:45, the opportunity to look in and see the form of the Mass as it was offered by the mission padres.
Una Voce Ventura is absolutely right in this matter, and the new pastor at the Ventura Mission is more than misguided in this insupportable decision. Attending Mass in any form at the Mission in Ventura is wonderfully uplifting and personally satisfying for anyone in the area because this very old mission is both an active parish and a site built for us by Blessed Padre Junipero Serra. However, for those of us who love and seek out the Latin Mass, where better to attend than at the oldest structure in Ventura County, built in the late 1700’s by a holy man who changed the history of the Americas? This is heartbreaking and appears to be based on personal preference, or dare I say prejudice, and not the needs of the Catholic community.
Those clerics who dispise the TLM are legion. This example from Ventura just shows how much the TLM is hated. In some dioceses, spies are brought in to the Mass to see if any seminarians are present. If there are seminarians at the TLM Mass, they are expelled from the seminary. Sounds like the Stazi or the KGB, doesn’t it. Yesterday a semiarian was off for the weekend, and he did not go near the church while I was celebrating the Extra-Ordinary form because of this very reason. It is a terrible scandal, which will not go away unless the Vatican intervenes. Even though TLM worshippers usually contribute more money to the church, many pastors would rather have a smaller collection than to have the TLM in their parish. May God have mercy on those clerics who detest” the most beautiful thing this side of Heaven”!
Your wild stories about seminarians being expelled for attending the TLM are ridiculous.
Bishops are starting seminary course to TEACH these men how to properly celebrate the TLM, and asking current priests to learn how as well.
Spies, KGB…give me a break!
Wrong, Mackz, you should do a bit more research, as the studies are ready for you to read. How is it that you are so naiive about bureaucracies, Mackz? “Spies” are the norm. Did you say once that you fell off the back of the turnip truck on your way to work one day?
Sorry, Mackz, 1st-hand witness here, men in the formation process of the orders (most notably Jesuits, St Barbara’s Province Franciscans, Holy Cross, and I could document half-dozen more, besides in many diocesesan cases), where they are pushed to the side via negative annual reviews of their “lack of suitability for the priesthood” for the contemporary pastoral requirements, are in fact rejected from seminary advancement and will NOT pass the required recommendations for priestly orders, if they attend the Traditional Latin Mass. They (the priestly candidates) are viewed as more than just suspect, but in fact are viewed as enemies. I saw many men pushed out in the last two decades. There is an affliction and a darkness in the US Church now, and there is no end in sight. And all this is in opposition to legitimate authority from the papal level on down.
Father Karl and Steve Phoenix, if you give specifics I will notify a sympathetic Cardinal. But I can’t go to him with stuff this vague. I need the real deal.
Let me clarify: with regards to dioceses, I am referring to LA archdiocese, as Rodda also notes; San Jose (CA) diocese under present and prior leadership; the former Oakland diocese leadership prior to Vigneron and Cordileone; and the Phoenix and Tucson dioceses under prior leadership. With regards to the orders, the Jesuits are beyond hope; the St Barbara’s Province Franciscans and the Holy Cross (CSC) congregation have deeply entrenched membership which is bitterly hostile to the Latin Traditional Mass. Because the contents of the annual priestly recommendation reviews (or, in the orders, sometimes called “informatios”) are all confidential, the fact of exclusion of traditional-leaning candidates are well-hidden. One example: What I saw was in the summary theological exam for the M DIV, even though other classmates said one candidate had superior theological knowledge of the material, because he cited Aquinas, Bonaventure, and similar traditional sources, he was given a “negative pass” (passed, but not recommended), for example, and they were given a “high pass” (like an ‘A’, full recommendation): “Out”. Rahner and Richard McBrien were, and many times, still are the order of the day, (although I dare anyone to say that Rahner makes self-uncontradicted sense of almost anything he discusses). As for McBrien, well.. Mcbrien has said that Padre Pio failed to give adequate confessional counseling experience to his penitents (Never mind what the penitents said or how their lives were changed—what do they know?). Oh, and they were all in love with Raymond E Brown, who got the US bishops to change Mary’s title from “full of grace” to “highly favored one.”
Another issue is that the greater the number of self-identified active homosexuals as member of an order or a diocese, the greater the opposition to the Latin Mass. Are you seeing a trend here?
Steve Phoenix, Thank you for your answer and your informatiion. Nothing can change the past. I think this kind of stuff is already pretty well known. The current dioceses that you mention are LA and San Jose. Are you aware of an order by either Archbishop Gomez or Bishop Patrick McGrath that seminarians who attend a Latin Mass should be kicked out of the seminarian program? The original charge was that in (I think LA) spies are placed at TLMs to catch any seminarians that might attend.
Steve Phoenix you are a breath of fresh air. God bless you too!
What diocese is this?
Archdiocese of LA.
The Archdiocese of Lost Angels (Los Angeles)!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
There seems to be more to this story then what has been written.
Who celebrates the EF Mass at the Mission? If that priest is still willing, given the points listed in the letter I suspect it would be very straightforward for Una Voca Ventura to meet with the regional bishop (Bp. Thomas Curry) and get this matter resolved ***once*** they have formally exhausted their efforts with Fr. Thomas Elewaut. If that doesn’t work they can then take their concerns to ABp. Gomez.
The problem I suspect is that there is more to it than 4th grader access (not an excuse in way shape or form) and rearranging of the sanctuary. Either the pastor doesn’t like the EF Mass or more likely, there are personality conflicts between the pastor and his staff (especially the staff is my guess) and those that coordinate the EF Mass.
If the pastor tried booting the EF Mass for the reasons given he would get hammered by Curry and/or Gomez. There is more to this than what has been written.
The celebrant priests are mentioned in the Addendum cited here, which is Fr. Elewaut’s letter to the EF coordinator.
The reasons for the termination are also given in this document: “The Mission sanctuary is rather confined and most all liturgical furnishings and decorations have to be altered for every Extraordinary Form Mass. This has become an unnecessary strain on the historical furnishings and parish liturgical life. Secondly, the Mission is a place of pilgrimage and tourist visitation which is hindered by the additional Sunday Mass; visitors often have a limited opportunity to tour the Mission and have expressed reservation on touring the church during Holy Mass.”
Liturgical life of the Church? Would Holy Mass in any form not enrich the ‘liturgical life’.
This cleric is a hater.
Instead of theology, today’s seminarians and their peers study bureaucratic technique and financial flim flam.
The Traditional Latin Mass becomes “a strain on the historical furnishings … “: Whoever wrote this is a moron.
Skai I agree with the moron sentiment. How can we respect this ridiculous unjust letter and their reasoning…it makes no good sense. It is not honorable to our Lord! Not at all!
If the tourists don’t want to go inside during Mass, they can wander the historic grounds, walking a few steps to the gift shop, the ancient cemetary, restaurants, a park, and the Museum of Ventura County, and thrift shops, all within the same block, until Mass is over. The pastor’s opposition to the Latin Mass cannot be supported by such silly arguments. Lots of tourists look inside or even walk inside during Mass and seem somewhat transfixed for a short while. This may be as close to worshipping God as some of them have been for a while or may ever be. Fourth graders usually tour during school days; I’ve never seen busloads of kids touring on Sundays in my entire lifetime, including when I was a 4th grader myself.
RICO is the way to go; bring in the FBI and open up this festering wound.
Whats RICO Skai?
RICO is the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act. The govt crafted this law to crack down on organized crime, and then used it against Pro Life hero Joe Schidler, and other prolife organizations that demonstrated at abortion mills. It seems that there may be some kind of collusion between government and bishops which involves money and which is secret and which affects the bishops regarding their duty to stop abortion.
Wow Skai, I never knew that. So much stuff is out there….God have mercy on us all.
Skai, Obama’s Administration and including his Justice Dept have no regard for the law or the US Constitution. They actively and openly support abortion. You will never get any support from them. Your post is a waste of space and directs people in the wrong direction.
I am part of the National pro-life leadership, and that is the first time I have heard that interesing theory!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Kenneth: You haven’t heard this theory because Skai made it up.
ok now I’m confused? Skai sos
No YFC this is the dream of the left, use RICO statutes to destroy their enemies, I am sure you would support it….
Dang, this is a prime example when a “Faithful members of the Extraordinary Form Latin Mass” doesn’t become an integral part of the parish in which it is celebrated.
The separation that is common in many parishes is completely cancerous. A truly horrible thing. I suspect that’s what is doing the EF Mass in at the Old Mission.
Rodda’s Snide contempt as usual for Faithful Catholics…you have no idea what or why it happened…
It is CANCEROUS to have separate “EF Mass communities” within an existing parish!
If there is sufficient demand, an EF Mass needs to be offered by the parish and not by some outside group that has arranged to use the church. That’s critically important.
No what is critically important that if the EF is requested by the Faithful it should be granted and not blocked by modernist cleric who detest the Mass, and that happens all the time despite what the Holy Father said… Then EF groups would not have become “outside groups”.. your contempt of us is dripping wipe your chin…
Yada, yada, yada.
If an EF is to be celebrated at a given parish, it should be done so by the pastor and/or his assistants.
It should not be a situation where a priest shows up from elsewhere to celebrate the Mass. That’s when separate “TLM communities” begin and the cancer starts!
Your contempt is still showing rodda.
The only sensible comment ever posted by Rodda was the one opposed to the federal gun grabbing movement. So, this blogger, Rodda, hates the only Catholic liturgical form that provides the soul with what is called the vertical path to worshiping God, and he opposes gun grabbers. Time will tell what he’s up to.
” We are awaiting a sign of approval from his Excellency Archbishop Gomez……”
Two separate petitions for a Traditional parish, ignored.
Now kicked out of Mission San Buenaventura.
By the newly assigned pastor.
Seems pretty clear to me.
Yes Rick very clear indeed! The true solution is to remove the priest! MOVE HIM TO A PARISH THAT BEST SUITS HIM!
How many people were attending? If only a few I understand the pastor but if the church was filled to capacity than that is another issue. I don’t understand the ‘months’ to find another parish. How many other churches in the area are that busy on a Sunday afternoon? Perhaps, the pastor doesn’t want to deal with the intolerant and condescending attitudes of some of the Latin Mass types who post of this site.
Between 100-150 communicants every Sunday. And no, we are not of intolerant and condescending attitude. We just find it an injustice that a pastor can simply ignore the Pope and carry out this expulsion from the San Buenaventura Mission.
Lou who cares, this mass has been in practice for 15 years! Who cares what others think! This priest came in and is causing unnecessary havoc! How is he serving Jesus with this havoc! How is is he uniting folks? Not at all! This is an injustice!
One has to question why he has so much displeasure with the mass, that he found it necessary to end it? One has to question his motives because if we all can remember this is Mass, a time for Christ, why is he interested in moving it? It can’t be good! One has to question his will.
“Something that was once holy will always be holy” Pope Benedict XVI.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Only 100? Really?
The Mission is very full at about 200, although fire-rated to ~300.
This is an outrageous, yet not unexpected, further example of complete disobedience to the Holy Father. The good Rev. Elewaut knows who butters his bread, and it is by no one that loves Catholic Tradition. Una Voce, a well intentioned organization, simply approaches this types of totalitarian dismissals at too simplistic a level. The first step should have been an appeal of the elimination of this TLM under the approach set forth in Summorum Pontificum and Universae Ecclesiae. With the right commitment, this matter would go (at least) to the level of the Ecclesia Dei Commission. Some group needs to slap down theologically corrupt pastors and local ordinaries so that this sort of thing does not happen (and it has happened repeatedly). The rights of practicing Catholics to maintain stability in the exercise of their Traditional beliefs should not depend on the appointment of clerical thugs, seeking only to pursue favor with the local bishop or within some context of “Vatican II” implementation. This kind of thing suggests that each pastor is a sort of “Sheriff of Nottingham” serving distant powers that do not care about the daily religious life of parishioners–villagers. Where is Robin Hood!! No wonder the SSPX, and other Traditional groups, have serious suspicions about the honesty of dealing with the present institutional Church.
Please pay more attention to what Father Karl says! These people are not “misguided”, “only need our prayers”, and so on. They truly hate the Mass, hate the Eucharist, and hate those who love both. They are enemies of the Church and especially of the Eucharist. Maybe because of the near universality of the “application” of the Novus Ordo, we did not discern very well the intention of the powers that pushed it. This was brought home to me unexpectedly by coming across and reading Hilaire Belloc’s book “Cranmer” written in 1931, a virtual blueprint of what transpired to produce the current protestantized Novus Ordo, especially the deemphasis of the Eucharist and the Real Presence, Cranmer’s principal goal.
Why would someone who “hates the Mass, hate the Eucharist, and hate those who love both” ever set foot in a Catholic Church, let alone spend their fortunes, their lives, and their souls to support it? I don’t even get how there could even be a tiny hint of truth or logic in Philippe’s response to this post.
So called “Your Fellow Catholic” apparently you have never learned about Satan and his hatred of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Kenneth, apparently you are calling the Bishops of the Church, as well as the vast bulk of her presbyterate, devils.
The procedure for totalitarian control is to disarm the public by A. making them love being stupid, and B. grabbing their guns so that when they wake up they won’t have any means of getting their pants back.
In the United States, the sheriffs of Nottingham are elected by the locals in their county. They are the last line of defense against totalitarian aspirations by corrupt episcopacy or treasonous federal tyrants. The sheriff can deputise millions of good citizens against any modern version of the fabled tales of an evil church-state conspiratorial move to oppress the people.
Very sorry to read this news. If moving the furniture was a problem, then DON’T MOVE THE FURNITURE.
Seems pretty simple to me!
Like some, however, I wonder if there is more to this story we are not reading. For example, one pastor I know had a Latin Mass (can’t remember if it was only in that language, or truly the TLM) in his parish, but ran into trouble because the people “in charge” of that Mass would put out pamphlets each Sunday attacking the Holy Father, the Magisterium of the Church, etc.
He didn’t kick them out, but he had to crack down on such stuff, which not fun for anyone. They also had a separate ciborium in the tabernacle, because they didn’t trust that the Hosts consecrated at the OTHER Masses were truly the Body of Christ.
It gives me a headache just to remember his tales…
MACKZ your comments are irrelevant! We are not here to bring up past situations, this pastor wants to end it! Move the furniture, is that how you would use as an example to Mass with our Lord, as he was a piece of furniture? I find that appalling!
This mentality is what is separating us from the rest of the body of Christ! Many have chosen to be indifferent! Look at the outcry not at your indifferent heart!
Emily Litella lives!
I attend a TLM on occassion in an FSSP parish, and I will tell you, there is some wacky traditionalists that give me the cringes, from some wacko Fatima cool aid to all this Anti Bishops and Anti Holy Father and anti V II stuff, there is some really wacky conspiracy folks in the TLM community.
What does that have anything to do with ending the Traditional Mass at this parish? MKM there are also many wacky modern folks from the NO mass? So remove that mass too? You should of seen the vegan guy from the NO mass, who voted of Obama and wanted to have laws that would limit the meat eating and such….your comments are irrelevant and have nothing to do with keeping this holy mass. That guy still has a bumper sticker that promotes gay marriage and is still attending mass. So please!
Conspiracy theory is not a sin. Creating hypotheses is not a sin. Scientific logic is not a sin when applied to the machinations of men. Those who are not wary will fall. I would never opt for silencing the watchmen on the watchtowers of the City of God.
Sometimes the dog on watch at night is also sick, but that does not negate the virtue of his watchfulness or what he might see.
As there are plenty of in the Novus Ordo parishes as well!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
But they got what they wanted, Mackz; the Holy Father(s) were moved by them. Even the SSPX bishops have had their excommunications lifted. These popes apparently have realized that terrible errors have been made and that the smoke of Satan in the Church has to be reckoned with … and it is not the traditionalists.
My wife and I attended the TLM there while on our honeymoon and have fond memories of it. I find his reasons absurd. The TLM interferes with tourists ability to view the Mission? Certainly the California Missions are of historical interest even to non-Catholics, but the primary purpose of an operating church is to serve the faithful, not tourists. While I can’t speak to the intentions of this priest, I have to doubt his sincerity when he presents such an absurd rationale.
Thank you Jeffery! Common sense tells me you are a reasonable gentleman!
Amen, Jeffery. You are so right. There are many more faithful there for Mass than there are tourists, at least that has always been so every time I have visited, which is several times per month. But even if that were not so, the purpose of our operating parishes, no matter how old, is to be of service to Catholics in worshipping, and only secondarily to serve the tourists of California’s historical sites.
Look up the FSSP, Fraternity of Saint Peter Priests in California, there are some FSSP parishes there. They are strictly traditional Latin Mass priests only. You would not be removed from their church.
mg15, to my knowledge the FSSP have not been invited to the Los Angeles Archdiocese nor nearby San Bernardino, nor nearby Orange county dioceses. In fact one would have to travel to San Diego or Sacramento to attend such a parish in California, or drive up to Seattle, Washington.
What about Nevada or Arizona or Utah for such a parish?
Archbishop Gomez is a mordenist. At Every turn, he is happy to do what Mahoney did or worse.
This is nothing more than a display of ignorant bigotry. It gives some level of insight as to why the EF Mass is being canned at the Old Mission.
No RB it is your distasteful sentiments against the EF Mass that many share with you, is why there is indifference in the church. It’s interesting but I knew that you would be contributing your negative comments a lot on this subject matter. I am not surprised. The EF Mass is alive and so IS JESUS In it! Just because you dislike many here that attend it and comment here, does not make the EF Mass any less….Jesus is alive and well.
Your comments and pieces of advice on this situation are troubling.
Given the comments on this forum, the EF Mass is gone and it’s not coming back to the Old Mission. Too much arrogance and a lack of ability to work to regain the Mass.
Rodda no you are troubling!
Rodda, the EF will not be gone, for the simple reason that God will always provide for those who want to worship Him, a guarantee against the machinations of the NO manipulators and the gay agenda, and the devil, not to mention the “gates of hell”.
Archbishop Gomez strikes me as a Holy man. He does answer letters, and we still do not know what His Exellency will ultimately decide in this defining case. We are at the mercy of his wisdom through the Holy Spirit and will obey what he decides. On the other hand, obedience to a recent parish pastor that defies the decrees of our Pope Benedict XVI will be a harder pill to swallow.
What is it, pray tell, that makes Abp Gomez seem like a holy man to you, Gratias?
We, Gratias, are not “at the mercy of his wisdom” (Abp Gomez’) as you assert. We do not have to obey “what he decides” unless it can be demonstrated that it is from God and not more of the same warmed over carbuncle gravey. God does not guarantee bishops, only the Church.
“He does answer letters”, I will soon be able to reply to that statement. We have written him about the disgrace of now his REC!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Brilliant, Rodda, simply brilliant. Btw, do you work on a consultant basis or does a diocese pay you a salary?
With Pope Benedicts “The Church will become smaller and holier” comment, I wonder how this could come about if it were the Latin Mass that were headed for ignominy instead of the Novus Ordo?
Call it bigotry, but facts are nasty things, What has Archbishop done to deal with problems in Los Angeles?
Even St. John Seminary is still merily going along its heresy, nothing over there is happening to fix its problems.
Even some southern California Bishops yanked their men out of that seminary and along come Archbishop Gomez and does nothing to fix its heretical tendancies.
It would be quite a challenge for our new archbishop to be worse than Mahony. May I ask if you read the local newspapers or follow the national news? The name Mahony is nationally despised! The name Mahony is on the lips of our nation’s anchors and reports concerning the unconscionable and intentional criminal cover-ups of priestly abuse of children and years of lying to us about his criminal activities and his own conspiratorial intentions in hiding the truth from authorities and those of us who paid dearly for his shocking failures and actions of his criminal priests. Mahony deserves to be defrocked, excommunicated and jailed; without that garb, he’d be there already, where all these priests should be. So far we have seen no failures on the part of Archbishop Gomez that even come close. Yes, he has disappointed in various ways, and sometimes somewhat shockingly, but I see absolutely no comparison between the two. Let us pray that your words never ever come true. I can’t imagine how you could say such a thing, despite a great many minor and a few major disappointments in our new archbishop.
I once heard someone say that Cardinal Mahony was like or nicknamed “teflon” — nothing sticks to him. I was surprised that a grand jury investigation of him launched by a U.S. attorney went nowhere.
Considering the scandal of the recently released classified files on the negligence of both Cardinal Mahony and Bishop Curry, it is quite shocking that Bishop Curry is still in office. Where is his resignation? Where is the outrage? Where is the Catholic faithful and the media calling for him to step down?
Sounds like a logistics issue more than a Latin Mass issue. All part of being in the Historic Mission chain found by Fr. Junipero Serra.
Well, at least the altar boys have less Latin homework to do now.
Mackz, As a Catholic priest in good standing, who has NEVER been suspended, I stand by what I wrote earlier this morning. The seminarians are forbidden to attend the Extra-Ordinary form of the Mass in several dioceses. The seminarian yesterday said he did not go near the church until the Mass was over because he knew there were spies, who would report him to the rector. When six parishioners confirmed this, I would hardly call the seminarian’s statement a falsehood. I know of other cases where a seminarian, the day before he was to be ordained a deacon, asked, in the future, if he could celebrate the TLM, and the superior of the community immediately dismissed him from the monastery.These true tales are stranger than fiction, but they ARE verifiable.., and I, as a Catholic and as a priest will not lie, as God is my judge.
max the author of “Karl have you been sniffing too much incense”writes:
“Your wild stories about seminarians being expelled for attending the TLM are ridiculous.”
“Spies, KGB…give me a break!”
Father Karl’s response to max: “Mackz, As a Catholic priest in good standing, who has NEVER been suspended, I stand by what I wrote earlier this morning. The seminarians are forbidden to attend the Extra-Ordinary form of the Mass in several dioceses.”
“These true tales are stranger than fiction, but they ARE verifiable.., and I, as a Catholic and as a priest will not lie, as God is my judge.”
Matthew 7:6 reminds and instructs:
“Give not that which is holy to dogs; neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turning upon you, they tear you.”
Your profession of faith, Mackz?
Catherine, you are so awesome — who else is able and willing to bring up comments from ages ago and use them over and over again?
I’m glad you enjoyed my question about incense so much.
Mackz your not being funny….poor dogs
How would one verify it? There is nothing online. Perhaps if we knew the dioceses and seminaries that would help. I would hope that someone would bring this to the attention of the Apostolic Signatura.
Father Karl, if this is true, we need to be sure that this is reported to the Papal Nuncio, don’t we? Or how do we make this right?
Report it Maryanne. Many of us need to help this Mission….as much as we can that is possible
Yes Maryanne report it and please let us know if you even get a reply!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
I know what I would do.
First, I would video the action of moving and then replacing “liturgical appointments in the sanctuary.” What does it take? A minute or two or three? Make sure to time it.
Second, on camera, note the Mass schedules of other California Mission parishes. Start with San Luis Obispo which is busier than Ventura.
The reasons given are malarkey. I would bet that the REAL problem is nasty, longtime friction between the entrenched “liturgical laity” at the Old Mission and those that set-up/coordinate the EF Mass. The entrenched laity cannot handle a loss of control even for one Mass. As soon as the new pastor came aboard they began working on him.
I have to say that I have read all the comments about “modernist”, “hate”, “Summorum Pontificum”, “Universae Ecclesiae”, etc. etc. and have to admit that the EF Mass is doomed at Ventura.
None of you seem to be able to identify the real problems (again, I strongly suspect it has to do with ongoing friction between the entrenched liturgical laity at the Old Mission and those who coordinate the EF Mass) and offer real remedies.
Your attitudes are not ones of solving a problem but of venting anger. You are entitled! SP says so! It is the modernist haters that want to kill the EF Mass!
Malarkey. It’s parish politics and it’s a problem that could be remedied if the right people represented the EF Mass at the Old Mission.
R.B. Rodda, even if what you say is true, personality conflicts cannot be allowed to wreak such devastating damage on our Catholic communities. If making nice were required in order to establish and run a Catholic church, I’ve observed many priests and members of the laity who could have brought down church after church years ago. We should not let personality factors from any quarter interfere with our higher purpose.
R.B. Rodda – As one all too familiar with “the liturgucal appointments” and moving the furniture, you do not really understand the problem. The friction is with Fr. Elewaut, but the real reason for moving us is not that we have moved the potted plants off the altar for our Mass, or moved the Presider’s chair 3 feet. Fr. Elewaut never introduced himself to his EF parishioners until he made his announcement that our Mass was being moved. Soon after his appointment, he threw away several items from the sacristy that we used on a regular basis for our Mass without asking us, and a low level hostility towards us has festered about various things, including the fact we have a separate calender, we use different readings, we won’t let a missionary nun preach the homily from the altar etc. However, it appears the move decision is correlated with the hiring of a self- described progressive catholic named Rick Cole as a lay Parish Administrator, who has a new vision for his direction of the Mission, which obviously does not include us.
See this video for further enlightenment.
30 mintue video interview of Fr. Elewaut and Rick Cole.
Anonymous2 I believe you. Fight this! It’s best to fire Rick Cole and move the priest. Their indifference and disrespectful demeanor is not something we want running any of our parishes!
I actually watched this video, hoping to gain insight to whatever personal or theological issues brought you all to this place of hostility. I couldn’t find any. In fact, I found a pastor and his lay employee struggling to be more welcoming, more evangelical, and more faithful to the history of the Church and the mission and then the secular community that Junipero Serra founded.
I suspect from the tone of the comments from some of you that perhaps the Pastor did not feel that his wishes were respected. If he has a group in his parish, whether it is a TLM or a charismatic or a 12 step group, in his Church, that refuses to listen to his guidance, especially with regard to things like what readings should be used at Mass…well maybe the TLM side could use some schooling in the appropriate role of the Pastor? Maybe he felt that this group was just not willing to obey his prerogatives as Pastor and had no choice left but to escort them off the property?
And For heavens’ sake. I can’t believe there aren’t countless parishes nearby who would take in the priest celebrating the TLM. Why go so public with what appears to be a personality squabble at it heart?
It seems “Your Fellow Catholic” has a few misconceptions about the role of the pastor and correct liturgy – The Missal of 1962 has its defined rubrics, including calender and readings, which differ from the “Novus Ordo(1969)”, over which the pastor does not have legitimate control. Note also that he did not ask that we change to a different reading or calender, but instead expressed dismay and apparent disdain for the fact they were different. He has used “parallel church” to describe those who are attached to the EF at the Mission, which I think is at the heart of why he does not want us there. You are also under a grave misconception about the number of locations open to us that would be appropriate to the EF Mass, but we are pursuing our options. Many are very attached to attending the EF at the Mission, and find its relocation a great trial, much as you would if you were attached to a particular Mass and Parish. However, we must also recognize that even if the Pastor told us to move because we smell bad, Canon Law is with him so that we must move, unless the Bishop says otherwise, which is unlikely.
There is an irony with the video regarding the supposed openness and diversity in the parish expressed by Mr. Cole, yet this is a week after they issued the “eviction” letter to the EF Mass. The EF Mass was brought up by the interviewer about 11 minutes into the video, and then the subject was quickly changed by Mr. Cole soon thereafter. No mention was made of the move of the EF Mass from the Mission. Much was made about inviting the secular community to use the Mission’s facilities. Fr. Elewaut is known as a good fundraiser and has a head for business and seems to be a hard worker. As a Pastor of souls???
There you go, YFC compares the Traditional Latin Mass with the Twelve Step Program.
My goodness, how hypocritical!
They speak of the EF Mass as a weekly event. They mention the EF choir’s contribution to their Christmas Choral event. They speak of Catholic with a small “c” as meaning universal, as reaching out to the community. Too bad they won’t reach out to us. However,the parish’s annual procession to the cross, a Ventura landmark, will now be open to believers of all faiths. All this took place AFTER the EF community was given notice.
In the true Christian spirit of this pastor…for us there is no room at the inn.
Rodda the word modernist came to light when I read your comments…they come off as hate towards the Traditional element of the faith. That is why that word came to describe exactly the real issue we are facing. Consider yourself a big contributor to that division!
Abeca, your numerous and emotional comments on this are remarkable.
Without knowing anything about the true “why” behind the “what,” you demand that the pastor be removed — over and over again.
Well dear friend, dear lad, I can relate from it personally. I am not someone who always attend the Latin Mass, but I do appreciate it and I am more Charismatic in our faith…You have the Traditional and the Charismatic element of the faith, I consider myself both and can understand both sides….I recall here in San Diego, when the faithful Latin Mass attendee’s didn’t have a parish, they use to have their Latin Mass in a cemetery. They begged Bishop Brom for a parish of their own for many years back then when we had our previous Pope, he wouldn’t approve. He actually set up many regulations and made it hard for them to live their traditions. Well story short….
I always thought they were wacko at first and I thought they were exaggerating that the NO priests actually disliked the Latin mass, but when I had a NO priest try to discourage me from attending the Latin Mass and even suggested to me that if was for the old people and that they didn’t believe that the real presence was also in the NO mass, I then saw proof of what they were actually having strong sentiments about. I felt their pain and saw the proof that they weren’t making things up. Even another priest from the local NO parish I was attending back then, he would use the opportunity in homilies to speak ill of the Latin Mass. I was in shock, I hadn’t noticed it before but when it was brought to my attention, I couldn’t believe my ears.
That is why I feel strongly about what I am saying here. With prayer, I usually try to listen and be lead by the Holy Ghost. I have to trust my instincts on this one. God bless you. : )
Oh yes you think I’m remarkable…..thank you I suppose : ) but God is far far far better and great than I. He is worth fighting for…if anyone cares to know, God is the same yesterday and today…he has not changed. I am grateful for that.
“Jesus Christ, yesterday, and to day; and the same for ever.”
God is the Father and Mary the Mother. Have some faith. Stop projecting the old images in your head onto this situation. Believe in God. Yes, it could be a test or a trial. It is not a persecution. Perhaps God is trying to send them to a place that needs them. Perhaps He is trying to show them to trust them. They are moving the Mass, not canceling it. Whipping out documents and declaring that they are entitled to have the Latin Mass here is pretty narcissistic.
They are entitled to have mass at their parish in the roman form of their choice according to the Holy Father.
Anon, why do you project your envy over someone who has bothered to do the command of God and studied Scripture? Are you trying to prove that ignorance and sloth reign supreme?
Skai, what a weird reaction.
Some people have the gift of understanding spiritual envy or spiritual jealousy. I recall a very good priest teaching about those spiritual warfare. He was really good. Hard to explain but some can just sense it, it’s like some of the saints, they spot jealousy a mile away and stayed away.
God’s gifts are unending.
Anon, “know thyself”. Ever heard that? You should check into it.
The Traditional Latin Masses I’ve attended now for over fifteen years have a very small proportion of old people. The NO crowd passes on the lie that only ancient alzheimer’s patients attend the EF.
How is it that we are discriminating against old people in these comments, even apparently from a priest? Old people are often a bit taxed to get to Mass, but they seem to be among the greatest contributors to the well-being of every parish I’ve known anything about, and I don’t mean merely financially, although that’s true too. If it weren’t for people who used to be young, but fortunately have enjoyed good health and dared to live for a while longer, I’m not sure if most parishes could or would survive. We all owe the transmission of the faith to people who would be dramatically older than any of us, were they still alive. Think how old Jesus Himself would be if He were still alive. If He were, would we still hear left-handed remarks about old people? What is wrong with you people who would dare to discount old people? Don’t you expect to live to be old when you pop your vitamins and work out, or is that just to look good? Being older is actually better than being younger, if you live right. You usually are wiser and better able to help others and have plenty of time to study the Bible, as you know it won’t be long before you are going to be moving on to your Final Reward. Live well, stop running down old people, and you might just get to be one yourself, with any luck at all. Then you can be cantankerous like me when you read slams against old people daring to fill the pews while simultaneously being old and post cranky comments on California Catholic Daily. It’s fun being old – you no longer care what the young think of you either! Talk about being free . . . I recommend it to everyone.
Jesus is no longer alive, Maryanne? What a shock; I’m definitely going to have to review my Catechism of the Catholic Church Second Edition.
“you no longer care what the young think”: “what the young think” … hmn, you’re putting us on again, aren’t you?
Mackz, lot of presumption there to accuse Abeca of not knowing what she writes of. She does. Her faith is deep, and you might do well to ask God to deepen yours.
Sometimes the “what” is sufficient.
Ventura County Reporter “A Man with a Mission”indicates Father Elewaut’s vision for the mission. May explain a little.
I totally agree with Rev. Thomas Elewaut’s decision not to allow the Triduum to be celebrated using the Extraordinary Rite. Why? Planning the Triduum, the Easter Vigil alone, is very involved for the laity involved and the clergy. IMAGINE having to plan for TWO Good Fridays, Holy Thursday, and the Great Vigil!
Additionally, WHY DIVIDE THE PARISH. One parish means ONE celebration of the high point of the liturgical year–the Triduum. Since it is the Novus Ordo that is the Ordinary Form of the Catholic Church, then it is indeed a very pastoral decision of the pastor to allow the Ordinary Form for the use of the ENTIRE PARISH!
The liturgy is about UNITY folks. Some of you seem to forget that.
Article 33 of Universae Ecclesiae states: “If there is a qualified priest, a coetus fidelium (“group of faithful”), which follows the older liturgical tradition, can also celebrate the Sacred Triduum in the forma extraordinaria. When there is no church or oratory designated exclusively for such celebrations, the parish priest or Ordinary, in agreement with the qualified priest, should find some arrangement favourable to the good of souls”.
The Triduum has been offered at the Mission San Juan Buenaventura at least since 2009, when it was offered by the irreplaceable Father Bishop from Los Angeles/Long Beach. In case you do not know him, he is the Holy African-American Diocesan Father that offers the every-Sunday EF mass at St. Therèse in Alhambra California, as well as in other locations throughout the Los Angeles Archidiocese on Saturdays. Except for Fr. Bishop, the EF Mass would have been extinguished in Los Angeles during the Mahony era.
Since then, many other Holy Priests have filled in the breach. Dominican, Augustinian, Diocesan Pastor of the San Buenaventura Mission and Norbertines, all these Holy men have offered the Triduum with the assistance of the community of faithful. So canceling the Triduum is a novelty now imposed by Fr. Thomas Elewaut on the Mission, and is contrary to the intentions of the Holy Father in Rome, whom he and all of us should obey. In the final analysis, being a Catholic is a matter of obedience to Papal authority.
When will we ever learn, when will we ever learn?
Well, according to the letter, the need to find a new location was precipitated by the fact that the priest who currently says the Mass is leaving.
It is a pretext. We filled the schedule with another priest. It is a non-issue, as are most of the items brought up in the letter.
OK. What did the Archbishop say about it?
I know Fr. Bishop well, he is not a Diocesan Priest, he is a good Son of St. Anthony Mary Claret, a Claretian. He would probably get mad at me if I praised him any more than I have.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Your problem is with the Pope. Check it out!
On the contrary, the Holy Father NEVER imposed on the Catholic clergy the obligation to celebrate the TLM. You should check out the Motu Proprio, “Summorum Pontificum.” The Council of Vatican II obligated priests to celebrate the Ordinary Form, and the Holy Father never abrogated this.
Priests are required to provide the EF upon request, which is what the Pope not only requested but mandated. The Pope also requested, per God’s mandate, that the bishops become holy. So far no response from most of them in the USA.
False! Priests are not being required to provide the EF Mass “upon request.” Rather, the Holy Father is asking priests to be generous with these people. NO WHERE is the Pontiff requiring priests to celebrate the Extraordinary Form, even upon request.
The liturgy is about UNITY folks. Some of you seem to forget that., yes and since the NO was imposed on the Church we have been divided ever since……..
The NO seems almost like a chicken with its head cut off, and running amok all over the barnyard.
jon, your unity is not with the Church; if it were, you would display evidence of it.
Skai, you may know this, but for those who don’t, the Novus Ordo was written with the help of SIX Protestant Ministers! Why?
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
The Triduum has been held in Latin at San Buenaventura Mission at least since 2009, when it was offered by Father Bishop. (In case you do not know him, he is the African-American priest from Los Angeles/Long Beach that kept the Latin mass going in Los Angeles during the Mahony years; this Holy man now offers the Sunday Latin mass at St. Therese in Alhambra and at other locations on Saturday.) Article 33 of Universae Ecclesiae specifically recommends allowing a stable group of faithful hold the Triduum in the forma extraordinaria. It was a wonderful experience to attend the Triduum in Ventura, one felt halfway to heaven.
The Triduum has been held in Latin at San Buenaventura Mission at least since 2009, with no problems. Article 33 of Universae Ecclesiae specifically recommends allowing a stable group of faithful hold the Triduum in the Forma Extraordinaria in parishes. Attending the Triduum in Ventura was a wonderful experience, one felt half-way to Heaven.
Fr. Elewaut has had nothing to do with our Triduum with regard to planning other than giving us a time slot. The planning is all on the laity and the Priest celebrating it for us. Fr’ Elewaut’s primary irritation last year seemed to be that we were in the way of people hired to clean the church before the main parish celebration of Holy Thursday. Note that there is a separate way of the Cross in Spanish on Good Friday in the late afternoon that is already not in unity with the official parish Good Friday service at noon.
jon’s hatred and prejudice is evident, that is why this parish needs to fight, because of people like him. Pray for God’s courage and strength and to fight without looking back but do it with love for the Mass and this mission!
OH? How is jon’s “hatred and prejudice” evident?
Abeca, you need to heed the advice given to you by one of the commenters above: “Without knowing anything about the true “why” behind the “what,” you demand that the pastor be removed — over and over again.”
Abeca, the pastor has done NOTHING wrong. He hasn’t even violated the Motu Propio “Summorum Pontificum,” as reported.
That’s your opinion sir
Listen to yourself: You were in the way of the preparation BEFORE the MAIN parish celebration. You are further revealing the good pastoral decision of this pastor.
The church cleaners were scheduled to be in the church the same time we had scheduled the Mass, the schedule for which (the Mass) had been made more than a month in advance. We were rather surprised at what transpired, which made our Mass later and closer to being an imposition on the Mass following it, which we were trying to avoid. The hostility expressed at that point last year made me believe we would not have the EF Triduum this year, which is in the Pastor’s competence to grant or refuse, but it is not something that is producing any sort of Unity.
The church cleaners were more interested in their pay than in accomodating people worshiping God.
God bless you for your first hand testimony!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Its not a celebration! Its a Mass, Sacrifice.
“It is not a celebration!” says Mbuku. Well, I refer you to the official eucharistic prayers of the church which contradict you. I think one of the things that argues in favor of Mass in the vernacular is that the faithful are more likely to understand the mysteries they are celebrating. If these prayers were in Latin, they would go right over my head and I might not realize that the Mass IS a celebration:
Eucharistic Prayer I: Father may this Holy Spirit sanctify these offerings. Let them become the body + and blood of Jesus Christ our Lord as we celebrate the great mystery which he left us as an everlasting covenant.
Eucharistic Prayer III: And so, Father, we bring you these gifts. We ask you to make them holy by the power of your Spirit, that they may become the body + and blood of your Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at whose command we celebrate this eucharist.
Eucharistic Prayer IV: Father may this Holy Spirit sanctify these offerings. Let them become the body + and blood of Jesus Christ our Lord as we celebrate the great mystery which he left us as an everlasting covenant….Father, we now celebrate this memorial of our redemption. We recall Christ’s death, his descent among the dead, his resurrection, and his ascension to your right hand; and, looking forward to his coming in glory, we offer you his body and blood, the acceptable sacrifice which brings salvation to the whole world.
Yes, the Mass is a Sacrifice by God. But many souls celebrate the death of God, and ignore the Resurrection of Jesus, Who proclaims Himself the fulfillment of the Law. In other words, the unfaithful souls couldn’t beat the Law, and so now they’re attempting to ignore the Law, and they’re doing this by creating a golden calf that is decked out in Jesus apparal.
St Paul told the Church to do its celebrating apart from the Mass. This fact proves that the liturgists of the Church can be dead wrong. St Paul also notes that among the Christians are former … note, YFC … former effeminates and homosexuals … former, as in they gave it up for Christ.
My fellow misguided Catholic,
You know very well that English does not properly capture Latin Meanings.
‘Celebrate’ is not exactly a Brazillian Carnival, which is what one would think from your writing.
You think there would be dancing when saying the stations of the cross?
Who said anything about a Brazilian Carnival?
“Celebration” is a perfectly suitable word to describe the Holy Mass — as was just proven to you expertly by Fellow Catholic.
Mbuku: no hablo latino, so I don’t know how it is possible that referring me to the Latin would clarify things better than the dozens and dozens of linguists, theologians, and bishops who use the word “celebrate” as the lex orandi of the Mass in English that points to the greater lex credendi. The best word these official teachers use to convey the meaning from the Latin in English is “celebration”. Who am I to argue with theses painstaking scholars and teachers?
jon, in that you say the Triduum should not be done because of its difficulty only reflects the fact that your generation has been dumbed down in an astonishingly abrupt manner. I’m beginning to wonder if you are the most eloquent spokesman for the lost generation.
Skai, there are at least two illogical errors in your last statement. The premise you put forth (that jon says that there is difficulty in planing for two sets of Triduum liturgies) does not necessarily precede the conclusion (that my generation has been “dumbed down). Logical error.
Therefore, if Skai is the most eloquent spokesman for his generation, then his generation has a lot to wish for.
Skai’s generation is blessed to have him speak….He has a lot of wisdom and knowledge and tends to share it well.
God bless Skai!
Mbûkû Kanyau Mbithûka,
Yet another way of putting it is: “can you imagine the Sorrowful Mother celebrating mardi gras style at the Foot of the Cross?”
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
jon, you are going against “Summorum Pontificum”.
Please read before you write. When you write against Motu Proprio’s you give ‘Scandal’, and support disobedience to the Pope.
Do not pretend to know everything.
“Summorum Pontificum”, – Art. 5. § 1 In parishes, where there is a stable group of faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition, the pastor should willingly accept their requests to celebrate the Mass according to the rite of the Roman Missal published in 1962, and ensure that the welfare of these faithful harmonises with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish, under the guidance of the bishop in accordance with canon 392, avoiding discord and favouring the unity of the whole Church. “
Sam you are wrong. Wrong because you are clearly not reading the Article from “Summorum Pontificum” which you just quoted. The part you are forgetting to read is “[that the pastor should] ensure that the welfare of these faithful harmonises with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish”
Clearly, the situation has become that the request of the EF folks is no longer in harmony with the care/welfare of the entire parish! Pastors are not obligated under “Summorum Pontificum” to accede to every wish from parishioners, especially if it is not in harmony with the pastoral care of the whole parish, and if it compromises the unity of the parish.
Read the Motu Propio again Sam. Do not go against the spirit of the text.
I know a young priest who celebrates the TLM in private. When I asked him if he’d celebrate it in public, he balked. Why not, I asked him. His response was revealing.
He said that some of the folks who go to TLM seem to “know” more about the liturgy than he does. One time after a Latin Mass he celebrated in public at least one of the attendees approached him to point out his “errors” while celebrating TLM.
Here is a young priest who went out of his way to celebrate the EF which he is not obligated to do and what he got out of it from one of the attendees was grief. Give the young guy a break!
That is the kind of attitude this young priest says that characterizes some of these TLM communities: audacity, entitlement, griping, complaints, dissatisfaction, fear, divisiveness, and antagonism. I sense that same attitude in some of these comments.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this is what this new pastor at this Mission Parish is trying to avoid: grief. I sympathize with these priests.
I have doubts about the validity of this tale.
Agree, jon’s tale lacks for realism.
The rubrics of the TLM are daunting enough to learn, my priest-friend has told me. It takes several weeks if not months to master them in order for a priest to be confident enough to celebrate it.
And so to be met with even just one unappreciative member of the assembly who pointed out to him the “mistakes” he made is enough for any normal priest to say, “why bother with these folks.” At least the people who go to the Novus Ordo are NOT like this.
So people, appreciate your priests whether they celebrate the TLM, the Novus Ordo, or both. But the lesson here is that I suspect the clergy know about the obsessive compulsiveness of some in the TLM group, and so they’d rather not have them around. They complain a lot.
The NO group, since jon brought that to our attention using this term but on the TLM group as he called it, now lets get real here, I’ve grown up in the NO parishes too, and yes we had good faithful ones as well but there were also ones that made us leave because they complain a lot because the church doesn’t change to meet their modern day sinful choices.
Some NO parish groups want women priests, they want women rights running the parish, they want acceptance of gayness, the famous drag dressers surely are an issue in some parishes (they always complain about the church and yet they find it necessary to wear nun outfits to mock the church and still they attend Mass and want acceptance, how about the little kids that have Ipods and play with them during mass (when their priest tells them to put it away, the mum’s are mad and the kids throw a fit) how about the ones who do not understand that there is the real presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist, so they think it’s OK to wear beach attire to church and if their pastor tries to address that issue of their dress wear, you’ll get to sit behind someone who is pisst off because the priest pointed out to them that their spaghetti straps or tank tops were not appropriate. The list goes on…….
the list goes on folks…jon has prejudices and they are unjust. In his mind, the NO mass is perfect and there is no one there complaining. He forgets that some people actually prefer not to be around the NO group as well. Lets be fair here jon….wake up and smell the coffee…….
I taught women’s bible studies in a NO parish (at the time I was nursing my youngest child too)….boy was there a lot of complaining when I directed them at what the church taught on subjects that affected them. Especially on birth control issues, I only conveyed what the church taught and had suggestions on how to apply it but there where some that felt the need to fight me, as if I had power over dogma.
You can be sure that some left my group because they disagreed with church teachings. It’s probably no wonder a priest didn’t want to sit in our group because he couldn’t stand the objections people had on church dogma. I felt more of those strong objections with the NO than with those who attended the TLM.
I even met a homosexual who attends the TLM, he chose to be chaste. I never saw him have a bumper sticker that promoted gay rights or gay marriage but in the NO mass, well in some, it is totally the opposite.
Abeca again you are wrong. Any Mass is sacred and holy. The attitude of some here who ridicule the Novus Ordo Mass and its adherents is heretical. Heretical!
Additionally, this has nothing to do with homosexuality.
jon I only wrote what I wrote because you display hatred towards the Latin mass and it’s attendee’s. If any Mass is holy and sacred to you, you would not take the opportunity to bash the people who attend the Latin Mass, you connect anyone that attends the Latin Mass as being complainers etc. I hope you get what I wanted to convey and point out your prejudges.
How are you different than from those you accuse of not liking the NO mass?
jon, the TLM is not daunting except for the unwilling. Just imagine the countless millions of illiterates who flocked to Latin Mass for fifteen centuries.
Again Skai/JLS, as in many things you miss the real point. The point here is the abominable and ungrateful attitude of some who attend the TLM who would be so audacious as to tell a young priest who is being generous to them where his mistakes are.
jon your comments are uncalled for. It was you who made the people the issue (and I tried pointing out your bigotry from my examples, from my own past experience), the real issue is the NEW pastor and the New hired help who are doing away with the TLM that was there for many many years now!
I praise God that you are not their judge because you would be an unjust one! You would be a ruler who would persecute them for years like many of the bad willed rulers from the old testament!
Again Abeca you continually miss the point. The pastor DID NOTHING WRONG. Do you hear that? NOTHING WRONG! Even one of the commenters who attended the EF at the Mission said that the pastor was within his rights to move the celebration elsewhere!
Additionally, people are indeed the issue. The complainy, whiny, arrogant, disrespectful attitude of some of these folks is amazing. I detect it here too in some comments.
If a priest deliberately skips the creed or changes the word of consecration in the NO, why would you not have the right to attempt to correct him on his error? He may not like it, but he does not have the authority to change the liturgy as is set forth in the New Roman Missal. Certainly a complaint to the Bishop would be absolutely proper. Many illicit changes are present in a good number of the NO liturgies celebrated around the world, which has caused a hypersensitivity in some to complain about even very small errors in the EF liturgy. Is this always a good thing? – certainly not, as it would tend to discourage those who are attempting to learn the Mass correctly, and some perceived errors are more of an issue of custom. However some gentle correction may be required if serious errors have been made. There are very few priestly resources available to properly train new priests in the EF, who are ideally the best ones to do this kind of correction.
Did nothing wrong is not the proper implication here. If I wore a yellow dress shirt to Mass every Sunday, and the Pastor hates yellow, and so determines that I can no longer attend Mass in his Church, he is within his rights to do so as Pastor. However his action would not be just nor right, and could be appealed to the Bishop, but I would not have any standing to continue going to Mass at that location until the appeal was heard, which in the present state of things would not likely be reversed, and so I would need to go to Mass elsewhere. I see many assumptions about whining etc here, but there has really been very little communication between this Pastor and those who attend the EF at San Buenaventura Mission since his assignment there, and certainly no pamphlet postings or other such nonsense.
anonymous2, I very much appreciate your posts. I don’t agree that a pastor can tell a parishioner not to attend Mass at a parish. It is not his church. I am sorry for your situation and I hope that it will all turn out as God wills.
jon first off… this priest sure brought division… second indifference. Well it doesn’t matter jon… it’s not your parish… I for one have no power either but I sure would like to help them.
I pray for their faithful to speak up, they did nothing wrong either in protesting these changes that are definitely indifferent and that bring division. It sure works against the mission of our faith.
jon, your priest example does not want to learn Latin, or if he did, then he would simply go about learning it. Tell us what else he doesn’t like.
Skai and Abeca, you both are missing the point. The priest brought NO division and he knows Latin perfectly. The fault here lies in the ATTITUDE of the lay people who feel entitled, who incessantly complain, who are unappreciative of the hard work, and yes the love, of the clergy for the Mass and the Church. My priest-friend is in love with both, and he continues to celebrate the TLM. The call is for these lay people to love their clergy and NOT TO TAKE THEM FOR GRANTED.
jon, Pirests have no choice regarding the Liturgy of either the OF or EF Mass.
No Catholic should support Litugical abuse at either form.
ALL Priests must adhere to GIRM – General Instruction of the Roman Missal for the OF (ordinary form) Mass.
ALL Priests must adhere to the 1962 Missal if he is going to celebrate the EF (Latin/Traditional) Mass.
End of subject.
Sam, I doubt my priest-friend has committed any liturgical abuse. The abuse here is from the congregant’s audacity to presume to know more about the TLM than the priest who has studied it and learned it. Audacity indeed!
A good humble priest would accept just corrections, and proud one would not!
I have beem with an Archbishop that accepted just corrections. What a difference in him and the corrupt crop in Lost Angels!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
That is true Mr. Fisher… God bless you for reminding us about that, I hope this priest is humble enough.
Kenneth Fisher, the issue here is not the humble and generous young priest but the ungrateful and unappreciative members of the congregation. This goes for adherents of the TLM and the Novus Ordo.
It’s unfortunate that there are some traditionalists like that who go about pointing out errors and do nothing but complain, but at the same time your young priest friend needs to grow up and be a man. Get some backbone. Just thank those who are complaining and tell them that he will try to get better. Criticism comes with the territory of being a priest. That’s just a fact. Why should that faze him? He’s got to handle it and move on. They can just be trying to help him in their misguided way. He’s got to accept their good will or hold his ground and respond to their bad will. What’s he doing as a priest if he can’t handle the role and responsibility? The priest is the boss.
Seraph, you also miss the point. Why bother with complainers? Why bother with the headache? Remember that it is out of the priest’s generosity (not because of any obligation) that the Motu Propio “Summorum Pontificum” is calling priests to celebrate the TLM for the public. THEY ARE NOT OBLIGATED to celebrate the TLM, but they are obligated to do so for the Ordinary Form. If any normal priest can free himself from unnecessary headache, HE’D TAKE IT! My priest-friend has, and I DO NOT BLAME HIM!
In the meantime my friend continues to celebrate the TLM in private.
Words of encouragement:
You are in prayers, God bless you and may God raise you up and bless you with keeping this Holy Mass for the faithful there. Keep strong, hold on to Christ and His blessed Mum. For our good Lord will not abandon you, trust in Him and take action. This may be a test of faith for you, to see how faithful and strong you can be in HIM. Don’t let discouragement disable you. God bless you in Jesus name we pray!
“For them that are without, God will judge. Put away the evil one from among yourselves.”
— 1 Corinthians 5:13
“Fight the good fight of faith: lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art called, and hast confessed a good confession before many witnesses.”
— 1 Timothy 6:12
“For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places.”
— Ephesians 6:12
Is Father Elewaut a diocesan priest or a member of the Josephite order?
Some Internet searches come up with Rev. Thomas Elewaut, CJ.
He was Josephite, but became Diocesan a while ago.
If you are the pastor of this Church, it makes no sense to antagonize one group of Parishoners over the others. The thing is, these people he is antagonizing are the ones most likely to stand by him in times of trouble.
By far the majority of the Novus Ordo Adherents, especially the die hard Novus Ordo adherents that are opposed to the EF are fair weather Catholics.
At the first sign of trouble, they would bail out.
that is so true MKM…I have seen that proof.
At the Jan.6, 2013 meeting after Fr. Elewaut gave the Traditionalists their ejection notice, I spoke with Rick Cole, the Parish Administrator, about the historic roots of the Tridentine Mass at the Mission San Buenaventura where over 200 years ago Fr. Junipero Serra celebrated this ancient Mass. Mr. Cole’s curt reply was: “What is your point? It was just for a bunch of Chumash Indians!”
Christ died on the cross for all men and women, including those who worship at the Novus Ordo Mass, the Tridentine Mass, and the Chumash Indians. It is too bad that Mr. Cole doesn’t see the connection. Maybe, he never will.
Fr. Elewaut’s concern for the welfare and salvation of his Traditional parishioners doesn’t seem much different from the attitude of his parish administrator towards the Tridentine Mass and the Chumash Indians. In the Pastor’s view the rights of tourists and fourth graders seem to trump those of Traditionalists.
What can we outsiders do to help…I mean that? Any suggestions?
If this is true, that alone should be enough to get Rick Cole unhired. If his racist pronouncement can be verified, he should be relieved of his duties. I am shocked and outraged at this comment, and I understand fully now why my Scandanavian relatives chose to wear yellow bands around their arms to identify themselves as Jewish, even when they were not, to stand with their Jewish neighbors. Chumash Indians were here in Ventura County before our beloved Padre Serra came to bring them the blessings of the faith, and we hold them in great esteem and honor our shared history with them as our historical legacy, inclusively. I hear the attitude of a racist in that comment and am deeply disturbed to read this. I wonder if California Catholic Daily would be willing to interview Rick Cole for a statement as to whether he said, denies, or denounces these words. I am on the side of those who love the Latin Mass and am upset about the outrageous treatment they are being given, but I think we need to know if Rick Cole actually said those words, or at least will admit to it.
Maryanne please report it. God bless you classy lady!
Not to mention the visionary rights of fund raising, transcending the parish from a place of worship to a cash cow. The visiting fourth graders will get their first lesson on how to use the Church to gain money. I’ve heard that in Europe there are some old church buildings that have been bought by non-Catholic parties and are used as museums which can be toured by buying a ticket.
Those who attend the EF Mass at this Parish need to write to Rev. Thomas J. Elewaut Pastor with a copy to the Diocese Bishop and the US Papal Nuncio in Washington DC.
Based upon the full letter by Pastor Elewaut, he seems more concerned about wear and tear on the Building rather than Saving Souls.
If that is the case, there should be no Masses of any kind since they all involve wear and tear on the building.
8.b ” effectively guaranteeing and ensuring the use of the forma extraordinaria for all who ask for it, given that the use of the 1962 Roman Liturgy is a faculty generously granted for the good of the faithful and therefore is to be interpreted in a sense favourable to the faithful who are its principal addressees “.
INSTRUCTION ON THE APPLICATION OF THE APOSTOLIC LETTER
SUMMORUM PONTIFICUM OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI
GIVEN MOTU PROPRIO.
” Art. 5. §1 In parishes, where there is a stable group of faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition, the pastor should willingly accept their requests to celebrate the Mass according to the rite of the Roman Missal published in 1962, and ensure that the welfare of these faithful harmonizes with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish, under the guidance of the bishop in accordance with Canon 392, avoiding discord and favoring the unity of the whole Church. ”
” Art. 7. If a group of lay faithful, as mentioned in art. 5 §1, has not obtained satisfaction to their requests from the pastor, they should inform the diocesan bishop. The bishop is strongly requested to satisfy their wishes. If he cannot arrange for such celebration to take place, the matter should be referred to the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei. ”
In his letter, the Pastor did not state that there was little or no interest in the EF Mass which could have been a logical reason for no longer celebrating in this form.
Bishop Thomas Curry, who must have approved of the expulsion, has now resigned in disgrace. Archbishop José Gomez will rule justly in the TLM case too, pray, pray.
Now that Bp. Curry is out, there is an opportunity for the Ventura TLM community to approach Abp. Gomez to restore their rights to have the use of the San Buenaventura Mission for their 1:30 service. After all the TLM was the Mass celebrated by both St. Bonaventure and Padre Serra.
Wonder what the ouster of Bishop Curry will have on this whole Saga. Hopefully this Priest is yanked out and sent to a more friendly parish where he can carry out his visions
Reading Cardinal Mahony’s blog, I get the feeling he does not understand the magnitude of his crimes.
Its amazing such a man is actually a Cardinal. He does not know when to shut up.
Maybe the Holy Spirit is moving him to keep talking.
All 21 California Missions should offer an every-Sunday forma extraordinaria Mass. This was the Mass they were built for. Our Missions are historical gems, and at present only San Juan Capistrano and San Buenaventura offer the Latin Mass. Offering the Latin Mass keeps the Church Holy.
Thank you California Catholic Daily for chronicling the tragedy of the eviction of the Latin EF Mass from Sam Buenaventura Mission.