In a contentious 25-minute interview with Alabama Supreme Court Justice Roy Moore on Thursday, CNN “New Day” co-host Chris Cuomo discussed Moore’s refusal to adhere to a federal judge’s ruling on same-sex marriages.
Cuomo and Moore disagreed on whether or not the federal court decision was binding to the point that it required the state of Alabama to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. But they also continued the argument to the point of where certain rights originate, to which Cuomo argued they came from man and law, and not from God.
Exchange as follows:
MOORE: I believe that’s a matter of law because our rights contained in the Bill of Rights do not come from the Constitution, they come from God. It’s clearly stated –
CUOMO: Our laws do not come from God, your honor, and you know that. They come from man.
MOORE: Let me ask you one question. Let me ask you one question, Chris. Is the Declaration of Independence law?
CUOMO: You would call it organic law as a basis for future laws off of it?
MOORE: I would call it the organic law because the United States code calls it organic law. It is organic law because the law of this country calls it the organic law of the country means where our rights come from. And if they come from there, men can’t take it away.
CUOMO: Our rights do not come from God. That’s your faith. That’s my faith, but not our country. Our laws come from the collective agreement and compromise.
MOORE: It’s not a matter of faith, sir. It’s a matter of organic law, which states, ‘We hold these truths to be held equal and endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.’ And the only role of government is stated in the next sentence is to secure those rights for us. The government starts taking those rights away from us, then it’s not securing and it is defiling the whole purpose of government.
The article comes from a Breitbart article by Jeffrey Poor.
Divine law must be obeyed before laws of the state. In Christian society this has always been so, but the United States began her downfall in the 1960’s when prayer was outlawed in public schools.
I’m sorry Father Karl, but you need to stop lying.
PRAYER IS NOT OUTLAWED IN PUBLIC SCHOOL.
What you cannot do, by law, is for teachers to COERCE or FORCE students to pray—or engage in group prayer—or insist they they SHOULD pray, because public schools are financed by tax dollars that are extracted BY FORCE, or threat of force, from citizens.
If you allow teachers to apply school discipline to compel prayer, you are in the position of compelling students to profess religious belief by force, which IS NOT SUPPORTED BY THE CCC, CATHOLIC THEOLOGY, OR THE ENTIRE MINISTRY OF JESUS CHRIST.
If Christ wanted his Word spread by force Christ would have set up the apostles as leaders of a one world government that would have put Rome to shame. Christ did not do that. In fact, he left the apostles in the position where all they could do is to PERSUADE people to follow Christ of their own free will. He went so far against forcing others to obey his word, that Christ left his Church vulnerable to those who wished to stop the Word by force.
Now, Father Karl, it is true that school administrators and religion hating liberal teachers are using school authority to supress religious expression—BUT THAT IS NOT AT THE BEHEST OF THE CONSTITUTION OR PROPERLY CONSTRUED US LAW.
You need to either correct your error or stop lying.
All School Boards must insist that under FREEDOM of RELIGION
and FREEDOM of SPEECH that students must be allowed to pray in School and on School property at appropriate times – such as before each class starts if they so choose.
Students who do not wish to participate should not be forced to do so. However they should not disrupt others who are praying.
All teachers in public schools who threaten or reprimand students who are praying at appropriate times, should be FIRED !
Don’t you agree, Jon J ?
Actually, I do Mac. Of course, I have no problems with SOME restrictions that made sense in terms of keeping order.
Such as, a student should not be allowed to scream the Hail Mary and Our Father in the middle of a lecture or an exam. Those are reasonable. Silent prayer, signs of the cross, or other gestures properly within the scope of the 1st amendment.
However, I do believe the school would be obligated to stop say, a majority teasing, harrassing, or bullying a fellow student because they aren’t praying, aren’t praying the right way, or should adopt the “right” faith.
In addition JonJ, Catholics believe that they must only obey “JUST Laws” not merely because a couple of judges said so.
When there is a conflict between God’s laws, and man’s laws – God wins.
This is where you may be confused regarding all good Christians.
Catholics use both the Bible and CCC for moral (just) laws.
CCC: ” 1903 Authority is exercised legitimately only when it seeks the common good of the group concerned and if it employs morally licit means to attain it.
If rulers were to enact unjust laws or take measures contrary to the moral order, such arrangements would not be binding in conscience. In such a case, “authority breaks down completely and results in shameful abuse.” ”
Remember this – You will get nowhere with any good Christian, when you argue that civil law over-rides God’s laws.
Does this mean you believe Christians should stone people who take the Lord’s name in vain? I guess you better load up on rocks when you go to that high school football game.
Or that flat nosed people should not approach the altar of God. Does this mean you will prevent Asians from entering the Church?
Do you believe that witches should be killed on sight? I guess you need to find the local wiccan card reader and go shoot them.
Of course, I suppose you also believe that gays should be stoned to death. Does that mean a good Catholic is required to load up on guns and ammo and blow up every gay bar in their vicinity?
It is libelous to state that I wrote a lie. I have NEVER written something that is not true. In the 1960’s prayer WAS taken out of public schools, by the Supreme Court. Today, there may be periods of silence in schools when students can pray, but that was not what I was referring to. Organized prayer is gone, and I believe the Pledge of Allegiance is now optional. Before the Supreme Court acted, there was a type of Christianity taught, but today in the public schools, Christianity is treated like all other religions. Ethics was also taught, but that also has disappeared, along with the teaching of the 10 Commandments, because of what the Supreme Court handed down in the 1960’s.
“Christianity is treated like all other religions.” As it should be . . .
Except that Christianity, specifically Catholicism, will have the greatest success rate on judgment day. That’s why Christ founded the Catholic Church. And the Church is the only path to salvation. The truths espoused by other religions, if any, are received by other religions as reflected through the Church. Dominus Iesus (2000). People who want to argue with this, are wasting their time because all they’re doing is rejecting the Church. Catholic faith and understanding come only to those that accept Christ’s Church initially. People who condition their acceptance upon their own simple minded limited understanding will never escape their error. Thou shalt not put the Lord thy God to the test. So if we’re truly interested in helping people, the last thing we should do is advocate Masonic principles like “Christianity should be treated like all other religions.” That formula is hardly charitable as it impedes the path to salvation.
It is impossible to treat all religions the same as some teach monogamy, some teach polygamy and some even think polyandry and polyamory are just fine. Some think we should not eat meat at all or just not pork, etc. Some even think orgies are just fine (certain witchcraft cults) or some think human sacrifice to their gods is in order. There has to be some limits, or we would have total chaos. We HAVE to discriminate. There is good discrimination, and there is bad discrimination. We all discriminate, and anyone who says the do not is a liar.
I will put it a little softer — they are not telling the truth.
Farther Karl, you did not write that coerced prayer imposed by school discipline was banned, you wrote that school prayer is banned.
Yet, I can accept that your bearing false witness against thy neighbor was not intentional, and therefore not sinful.
Unfortunately, that leaves you in the position of advocating coerced prayer imposed by school discipline. This position is immoral.
To make this reality clear, I will pose this hypothetical. Suppose I want to honor God, and inspire devotion in my neighbors, by building a 60ft cross in my front yard. Yet, I cannot afford the price, so I hack into the neighborhood bank computer system and direct every fractional penny amount in any transaction into a special account that I use to finance my construction costs. Is that moral, even if my cross inspires dozens of conversions in the neighborhood?
No. The ends do not justify the means. Hacking into the bank is theft because I have not obtained permission from the account holders. I am still a criminal guilty of grand larceny.
Coerced prayer imposed by school discipline is the same thing. Students are compelled, by law, to attend. Every parent does not wish their child to be compelled to pray to Jesus, since Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and followers of the Flying Spaghetti Monster are just as subject to truancy laws as Christians. You are stealing their tax dollars.
Compelled prayer in a Catholic school is not immoral because parents CHOOSE to send their kids there.
Jon J, Fr. Karl is not lying. I know to what he is referring. In some parts of the United States, where the students were mostly Christians, there were prayers, such as the Our Father (Lord’s Prayer) or other non controversial prayers, said in public schools by the whole class, with some exceptions. Those whose parents did not want their children to say them did not have to do so. Even up to the late 1970s, early 1980, there were prayers said by ministers and priests that were suitable for Jews, Christians and most other religions at graduations in public schools and colleges right here in California. After awhile some began to bring things into the prayers that were controversial and not suitable for devout Jews, Christians and others, so many people objected, and it has gone down hill ever since.
Anne T. what he said in his original post was factually incorrect. Prayer is not banned. But, I accepted that his imprecision was not an intentional deception.
Yet, the process you described is still questionable morality. You are using a state funded school, with state funded teachers to tell students they should pray to Christ—which creates a social gradient which implies that, to belong to the society, you need to worship Christ. To create this social pecking order, you use tax dollars taken from even non-christian taxpayers.
Anne, how would you feel if the Church of the Divine Orgasm became dominant in your school district, and the began to offer group prayers before every class contending that the only way man can maintain contact with the divine is through daily orgasms? Would you happily pay school taxes and support school prayer?
And this is as it should be.
“Your Fellow Catholic”: Your view is idiotic. “Fr. Karl” is correct on societal “downfall” being greatly enhanced by federal judicial decisions forcing any element of religion away from public education.
Society works best by recognizing that its rights are from a divine source. After all the Declaration of Independence says that we are endowed by our Creator with unalienable rights. The absence of this knowledge, which is reinforced by prayer, has lead to complete ignorance of our value as human beings, our duties toward our fellow man, and our responsibility towards God. Of course, you can join the numb-skull Chris Cuomo who said that our rights come from the state and not from God (much like what Hitler said), but, in reality, we are breaking down as a society because we have cut ourselves off from our roots, from God, and from His Word (and Incarnation, Jesus).
Fr. Karl was correct. You, “YFC” and other collectivist thinkers, like brain-dead Chris Cuomo, are wrong. At some point, True Believers, like ISIS, will defeat us because they are linked to a faith that they treasure and will die for. Americans live, more and more, for media, sexual, and tactile pleasure (food, drink, and, for an increasing number, drugs). Prayer needs to return to the public forum before it is too late.
St. Christopher, you’re nuts. ISIS isn’t succeeding. ISIS is committing group suicide.
And, the reason ISIS will fail is its religious beliefs. According to Islam, the Caliphate must expand. It cannot stay stagnant. And, to be Caliph, a leader must hold physical territory. That means ISIS cannot just woodwork into the populace once confronted by superior military force.
This belief system will prove to be ISIS’ undoing. Already, they have mobilized Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iran, Turkey, Italy and Japan against them. They’ve offended the United States by murdering journalists and aid workers, and have set aim at Europe, Saudi Arabia and pretty much everyone who is not a nutjob Sunni.
The great thing is that ISIS is attracting all kinds of foaming religious idiots from around the world where they can be conveniently wiped out defending the Caliphate. Hey, ISIS might do more to eradicate terrorists than any strategy the US could have devised ourselves, if only we develop the political will to take advantage of their stupidity.
Your logic contradicts itself. On one hand you say Fr. Karl is right that “values” make a society succeed in the world and the lack of values is killing our society.
You cite ISIS as support. Except ISIS is completely IMMORAL, and subscribes to what you would call a false religion. According to your reasoning, Islamic devotion should DESTROY ISIS, instead you suggest that belief in a false religion and false values will make ISIS succeed.
You , also, ignore the historical example of Rome that thrived as a pagan republic, but fell as a catholic empire. Moral values from Catholicism didn’t prevent the fall, while Rome enjoyed success, expansion, and cultural vigor as a pagan state.
Well, you certainly have shown your true self. You do not believe in God at all. Do you? Whether you are one person or a group of them, and I suspect the latter.
That post was for the person or persons who calls himself or themselves YFC.
As the person or persons who call myself or ourselves YFC, I think my comment got separated from what the comment was related to, so I will offer you, Anne T., a charitable “out” by simply assuming that you might not have said the ugly things you say about me at 5:07 PM if they had not become unattached. And as I have said many times, so far as I know there is only one person who posts here as YFC. If I find someone else using the moniker, I’ll make it known to everyone. Deal?
Jon J and You who call yourself YFC, I only approve of prayers at graduations in public schools that are suitable for Jews, Catholics and most others. They do not have to refer to Christ specifically if the attendees are not all Christian, and they did not in later years. The use of the word Creator, Father, Divine Providence, etc. at the beginning is just fine for me and most all others. I can always cross my self at the beginning or the end of such a prayer. Nevertheless, they should not contain controversial things like thanking God for our sexually orientations as one minister did. Such controversial things should be left out. Also, in my post to the person who calls himself YFC, I said it after he posted the above that sounded as if he thought it was just fine that everything went down hill. Perhaps I misread what he meant. I
Nevertheless, if he is pushing for so-called same-sex marriage, and he has, he does not believe in the God of the Bible, nor the God that the Catholic Church or catechism teaches. Some other idol perhaps, but not the God of the Bible. There is no need for me to apologize as he presents himself as something he is not.
God bless Judge Moore, though, for his stand on marriage. As far as the Cuomos — well you really do not want to know what I think about them — too harsh to print.
Judge Moore is within his rights to believe what he wants to believe about marriage. But his threats to ignore the Supreme Court in the name of states rights is exactly the kind of thinking and irresponsible action that lead to the Civil War. A state judge should never disrespect the federal Supreme Court, and in fact our entire system of governance, by lying about his requirements to follow a legally binding court order. Now, in fairness, in the interview I saw, he very carefully avoided saying that is what he would do, but he spent the entire rest of the interview leading the audience right up to that point.
The northern was right about slavery, but some of the judges are not right about this issue. Marriage is only between a man and a woman. I repent of my hatred for the Cuomos and will pray for them instead. I do not know why Chris is doing this evil thing — pushing for sodomy.
Pushing for sodomy. Why does the focus always boil down to sexual expression with you people? Marriage equality is not about any specific sex act. Sex drive diminishes with age; it is fleeting. Marriage is about more than that: It is about love, and building on that something that sustains and endures.
The only equality is between one man and one woman. Two men and two women are an imbalance anyway one looks at it, and a perversion of what sexuality is meant to be.
By the way, the Constitution of the United States was signed by all the signers “in the year of Our Lord”, and we all know who that Lord was — Jesus Christ. And please do not give that “it was just a euphemism garbage”, the signers would not have signed it that way if it offended them. Also, back then there were public prayers said that all the Constitutional Conventions and all other public meetings. Some of the public buildings were even used for various church services if they did not have a building yet. George prayed at Valley Forge with all his men. That, my friends, are the facts.
Correction: George Washington.
Our Liberty Bell goes all the way back to around July 8, 1776. On it is engraved the words from Leviticus 25:10 in the Old Testament, probably from the Geneva or King James Bible. Those words are “Proclaim liberty throughout the land unto all the inhabitants thereof”. It meant liberty in the Judeo Christian sense of the word.
No it didn’t.