Citing Pope Francis’ recent motu proprio Traditionis Custodes, the archbishop of Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico, has decreed the abolition of the local quasi parish administered by the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP), which has been celebrating the Mass and other sacraments according to the traditional Latin rite in the archdiocese since 2008.
In addition to suppressing the parish, Archbishop José Francisco Robles Ortega has restricted the number of Masses permitted in the archdiocese, effectively eliminating Masses for weddings, funerals, and other events. He has also prohibited the FSSP from doing public masses at their pastoral house, and states that he will soon decide who will be permitted to celebrate the traditional Mass and provide spiritual care for the faithful, implying that the FSSP might be excluded completely from the archdiocese.
Robles’ decree, issued on Tuesday of last week, implies that the ultimate goal is to eliminate the traditional rite of Mass completely in the Archdiocese of Guadalajara, citing Francis’ statement in a letter accompanying Traditionis Custodes that he wishes to “work for a return to a unitary form of celebration” that will exclude the ancient rite. It also implies that further restrictions on the number of Masses will be imposed in the future, decreeing that “the celebrations will be carried out without adding to those already established . . . Once the time of the pandemic is over, the number of celebrations will be reviewed in each case.”
According to members of the parish who spoke to Catholic World Report about the case, the cardinal archbishop and his subordinates did nothing to discuss the matter with the lay faithful of the parish nor the FSSP priests before making his decision, despite claiming in a July press conference that he wished to have a “dialogue” with the FSSP following the issuance of Traditionis Custodes, which requires priests to obtain permission to celebrate the traditional Latin Mass according to the 1962 missal, and prohibits the creation of “new groups” associated with the ancient liturgy.
When several members of the parish attempted to approach the cardinal on Sunday to respectfully ask for an audience with him about the matter, he refused, claiming he was speaking to their priests – a claim that Catholic World Report is told is untrue – and quickly withdrew, appearing to be discombobulated by the encounter.
Robles is known for his aloofness, and is believed to rarely grant audiences to laity in the archdiocese, in marked contrast to his predecessor, Cardinal Juan Sandoval Íñiguez, whose doors were open several days of the week to any who sought an appointment with him.
So far the decree seems to be bringing about the opposite of its intended effect, spurring record levels of attendance at FSSP Masses. Sources say that a total of 798 people attended the Sunday Masses yesterday, a number that exceeds the earlier record of 715, which occurred on the Sunday following the issuance of Traditionis Custodes in July of this year….
The above comes from a Sept. 27 story in Catholic World Report.
Maybe the next pope will have different ideas. In our SF Archdiocese, the Abp. has been increasing Tridentine Latin Masses, to our delight! He is going to offer a,Tridentine Latin Mass himself on Friday Oct. 1st at 3pm, at SF’s beautiful St. Dominic’s Church.
If that’s true, then he is being unfaithful to the pope and not adhering to Traditionis Custodes. No more TLM at parishes. None. Clear as day in the new liturgical laws. The TLM is supposed to be phased out of use. Vatican II Mass is the only Mass going forward.
Can. 87 §1. A diocesan bishop, whenever he judges that it contributes to their spiritual good, is able to dispense the faithful from universal and particular disciplinary laws issued for his territory or his subjects by the supreme authority of the Church. He is not able to dispense, however, from procedural or penal laws nor from those whose dispensation is specially reserved to the Apostolic See or some other authority.
The hierarchy should be edified that Catholics are attending Holy Mass and receiving the sacraments.
Sheesh…at a time when supposedly 2/3 of professed Catholics don’t even come to mass, enthusiasm would be welcomed. But many American bishops are welcoming the extraordinary form with open arms and it is absolutely effecting how the ordinary form is being offered in a very good way.
Not a terrible thing to force groups of laity as well as clergy to declare themselves one way or another. Good to know with whom one is dealing.
Sadly, entirely predictable. I believe (and am willing for correction) that at least one other FSSP parish in France was denied the old Mass as well.
Where now are all the folks who chided me for my attendance at SSPX and not FSSP? Pls note this is ENTIRELY rhetorical question from me. That means I neither expect or deisre an answer.
Also, for folks like one of the other posters… what happens when (not IF) your presently TLM friendly bishops goes home or is replaced by one LESS friendly to the TLM? Pssttt that too is rhetorical.
My prediction to the board is that despite the rhetorical nature of my questions, they will be answered by the “usual suspects”
I do hope that the Cardinal Archbishop of Guadalajara sticks to his guns here and doesn’t give in to the intimidation tactics of these people. Let me set the scene for you (based on this article): a group of ex-quasi-parishioners attempted “to approach” (or was it really “to ambush”) the Cardinal last Sunday (what, after one of his public Masses?) and “respectfully” asked for a meeting. But after the Cardinal told the group that he was already speaking to the beloved FSSP priests, he left “discombobulated”. Did he leave in that sorry state because he was told “respectfully” by these people, right there and then, that he was lying? If that did happen, was that the way to speak to the Cardinal Archbishop? And then Catholic World Report had the temerity to diss the Cardinal by comparing him to his predecessor who seems to leave his office door open more often than not, and therefore by characterizing the Cardinal as “aloof.”
Who gave that unfavorable description of the Cardinal to CWR? This same group of people who attempted to approach him “respectfully”? And then CWR pointed out “factual errors” in the decree. There may be factual errors, but CWR got “factual errors” too, such as that the beloved FSSP’s “pastoral house” was indeed being used as a “house of formation.” I mean, a simple search online will give you evidence that the beloved FSSP had sent some of its North American seminarians there for training, and is developing (or may have already developed) that house into “a house of formation for Spanish-speaking aspirants to the priesthood.” Who’s really lying here, folks?
The fact is that the Cardinal Archbishop has every right to safeguard the unity of his flock, and probably he has deemed that the presence of the beloved FSSP is divisive. Pope Francis, in order to preserve the unity of the Church, desires that these folks return “in due time” to the Mass of Pope Paul VI (that’s the Ordinary Form for you protestants out there). There is no “right” to the Mass of Pope John XXIII; that’s hogwash. Catholics may have the right to the Sacraments, but not necessarily exclusively to the Extraordinary Form.
jon– every Catholic has the right to go to both types of Masses. You are extremely rigid and mean, a false Catholic who is in love with evil, dictator-style power and control of others who are actually good people, simply attending a deeply meaningful Mass which they prefer. And they certainly don’t know you, and don’t care what Mass you go to! So what? Anyway, Vatican II never intended for an abrogation of the old Latin Mass. And it actually favored keeping a great deal of the old Latin Mass, when constructing a new Mass, that would also include the local language, along with the traditional Latin, and more lay participation. But in the end, after the Council ended, the writers of the new Mass constructed an ecumenical, Protestant-style Mass, instead– with no Latin. If you like it, go to that Mass. And stop making mean and nasty remarks about very nice Catholics whom you do not even know, who love to go to the other Mass. They certainly don’t care who you are, and what Mass you go to. Besides, nearly all of the Vatican II Fathers are dead. And the current Pope is almost age 86! Subsequent generations of Catholic popes and prelates will have to make their own decisions. New Synods and Councils will be held. And history marches on. Best to follow Christ, seek to become transformed in Him– otherwise, being mean and nasty to others, over trivial liturgical issues, and “what the current pope says about his liturgical favorites” will certainly not help you get into Heaven.
It is an error to say that every Catholic has the right to go to both types of Masses.
The whole comment is so full of error it is hard to know where to start.
Does it matter is all the Nicene Fathers are dead? Or the Trent Fathers?
Please learn the Faith.
smh, the Vatican II Council was a pastoral Council only. Learn your Church history! The Council Fathers certainly never abrogated the old Latin Mass. They favored writing up a new “modern” Mass, keeping Latin, with Gregorian Chant having pride of place, liturgically.And much more! Read “Sacrosanctum Concilium,” see for yourself! The old Latin Mass was never abrogated! Ever! Our Archbishop is planning many more regular Latin Tridentine Masses in our Archdiocese– with one scheduled on Friday of this week, which he will say. He loves them! Beautiful! Now, you are only a lay person, not even a priest– so, you go to the Mass of your choice, and stop writing nasty comments about the old Latin Mass! Who cares, what Mass you prefer, and your reasons? Nobody cares, smh!
Christifidelis, I did not say any of those things. I said nothing about Vatican II or the Latin Mass and I said nothing nasty.
Now I am going to say something that could be taken as nasty but is not meant that way.
If you cannot read and understand a comment of 4 sentences, what hope is there for you to understand Church documents and catechisms? However, you should still try but pray to the Holy Spirit for understanding (as we all should.)
I am not insulting you. I am adjuring you.
Christifidelis, please explain what you mean by “Vatican II Council” was a pastoral Council only.
Please tell me what Church history you would like me to learn. I will do so.
I have a book on Church history that is over 500 pages long so could you be a little more specific.
I also have taken a course in church history. But it has been a few years so please refresh what it is you want me to learn.
I want you to learn what an ecumenical council is. And what level of teaching the documents of an ecumenical council are and what
happens to that teaching when everyone who attended the council is dead.
I also would like you to learn about the rights of lay Catholics.
There is so much projection in christifideleis post. Most TLM adherents who post here and in public places like … well you all know where, are actually quite nasty and not nice at all. And most who post care very much what mass you go to. I imagine that the average TLM goer IS nice and doesn’t care which mass other people go to and doesn’t want to destroy the ordinary form. But that’s not what one hears here. We hear about “wreckovations” and “faithful” Catholics and “babyish” “hippies” and nearly constant confusion between “traditional” and “Tradition” and nearly constant berating of bishops and priests. The degrading, hateful things many posters post is not the “nice” TLM-er you want to portray.
No, I don’t care what Mass you go to, I care what Mass I can go to.
See? Got Real is rejecting Vatican II. He says he wants his precious little TLM no matter what else the Church does, and he doesn’t care about the rest of the Church. Vatican II is fine for the rest of the Church, but not for him. All he wants is the TLM for himself and his like-minded separatists. He accepts Vatican II only if he personally doesn’t have to go along with it. He’s rejecting Vatican II. Root out the schism. Root out the cafeteria Catholicism. Get rid of the TLM.
Get Real– Whoever those “nasty” Latin Mass-goers are that you know of, I know nothing about. They must be “young radicals,” but I could care less about “radicals!” Respect for God is very important, these “young radicals” you mentioned, need good discipline! I guess in every church, you will find a few “bad apples”– just like the “radical hippies” and “radical gay “married” couples,” and “radical women priest-advocates,” or “radical pro-abortion advocates,” like Pelosi, Biden, etc., at regular Novus Ordo Masses… come to think of it, our Church today, has sone notorious “crackpots!” I have always avoided them all, when attending Mass, since the late 1960s era! I just go to church to worship God. And love the beautiful and holy old Latin Mass! I have always ignored the modern world and its “noise.”
Get Real– I am probably way too old, with a completely different perspective than you and many others. To me, respect for God is very important, especially in church! We must humble ourselves, before God! Whoever those “nasty” Latin Mass-goers are that you know of, I know nothing about. They must be “young radicals,” but I could care less about “radicals!” Respect for God is very important, these “young radicals” you mentioned, need good discipline! I guess in every church, you will find a few “bad apples”– just like the “radical hippies” and “radical gay “married” couples,” and “radical women priest-advocates,” or “radical pro-abortion advocates,” like Pelosi, Biden, etc., at regular Novus Ordo Masses… come to think of it, our Church today, has sone notorious “crackpots!” I have always avoided them all, when attending Mass, since the late 1960s era! I just go to church to worship God. And love the beautiful and holy old Latin Mass! I have always tried to ignore the modern world and its “noise.”
Christifidelis. You must not be aware of what you write. Didn’t you just in this thread write that another poster is “extremely rigid and mean, a false Catholic who is in love with evil, dictator-style power and control of others who are actually good people, simply attending a deeply meaningful Mass which they prefer.”
You think that is being nice? Throwing around false accusations is what you call “nice”? Thanks, please don’t sit next to me, I don’t want to hear your nasty comments about others under your breath.
Hey No More, I didn’t give a preference for any Mass, and there was no rejection of anything.
Jon, obedience doesn’t have to be quiet, or even polite. We stay on the Barque of Peter, knowing the Catholic Church will outlast the current occupant of his chair, as it has always done in similar circumstances.
But will you outlast him? What if God calls you before him?
Good that you stay on the Barque but what are you doing on it?
How would obedience not be quiet or polite?
Docility is part of obedience.
I’ll set a scene for you jon:
Your weak bishop bends a knee to secular authority and closes the churches in his diocese. A man in mortal sin and in need of confession cannot find a priest to absolve him. Another man, dying of AIDS would like viaticum before death, but no priest in the weak bishop’s diocese has permission to visit hospices.
Sadly these scenes played out all over the Catholic world in our recent memory.
We need all the Catholic churches, including FSSP, open and available to the faithful. Rigid and vindictive papal policies do not tend to the needs of the flock.
Wow that was a word salad. What if worms air through the pews in your church? What if drought meant no grapes and therefore no communion wine? What if What if What if?
Eat it up, it’s good for you but leave your side of snark for the garbage disposal.
YFC, this is an example of the poor catechesis that Catholics have received over the last 50 years.
“You”, the scene you set is fictional. I’ve spoken to friends who are priests who continued hearing confessions, who went to hospitals to give anointing and Viaticum, and who kept their parish churches open. Churches found creative ways to continue to minister, and if there’s anyone to blame, it’s the secular local health services who “ordered” draconian measures.
Lastly “You”, though we “need all the Catholic churches open,” we do not need to remain open the divisive, disobedient, and dissenting parishes that harm the unity of the Body of Christ. Those can remain closed because they are like a deadly and fast-growing cancer. Therefore if the beloved FSSP is divisive in Guadalajara, it is for the good of the overall health of the body that they be shut down. Sometimes folks a physician needs to treat a deadly cancer aggressively, which is most likely what the Cardinal was doing there. By the way people, just for the record, the Cardinal there did not end weekday and weekend Masses in the Extraordinary Form. Those continue. Therefore, it’s erroneous what this article said: that the ex-quasi-parishioners are left “unsheltered” and “without rights.” Totally bogus.
How vulgar for jon to compare Latin Mass to cancer needing to be removed. What disrespect from one who prides himself for being Catholic.
Deus Vult, you’re wrong. What is vulgar is described by Pope Francis in his accompanying letter to “Traditionis custodies”. The Holy Father writes: “An opportunity offered by St. John Paul II and, with even greater magnanimity, by Benedict XVI, intended to recover the unity of an ecclesial body with diverse liturgical sensibilities, was exploited to widen the gaps, reinforce the divergences, and encourage disagreements that injure the Church, block her path, and expose her to the peril of division.”
That’s vulgarity, Deus vult: so-called “traditional Catholics” exploiting the beautiful Mass of Pope John XXIII (that’s the TLM or the Extraordinary Form, people) as a tool to divide the Church, “to reinforce divergences.” That’s vulgarity in its most heinous form, Deus Vult. Imagine: exploiting the sacraments of the Church, in order to divide the Church. It’s so heinous and sacrilegious, only the devil could have devised such a scheme.
Jon’s personal anecdotes don’t square with the thousands reported all over the Catholic world of people unable to receive sacraments. Secular local health officials made their draconian decrees, but weak leadership at caved in and obeyed. Disgraceful of them, and you Jon for buying it.
“You’s” diversionary tactics won’t work here, folks. How certain parishes and dioceses responded to draconian measures from local governments is not the issue here. The issue here is the divisiveness among certain groups, using the beautiful Mass of Pope St. John XXIII in order to divide the Church. That’s the issue here. The Cardinal Archbishop of Guadalajara made a decisive move to remove the cancer of division. Instead of thanking him, people like “You” would rather talk about tangential, irrelevant matters.
Oh jon, perhaps someday you will be happy.
If you are in mortal sin and you cannot find a priest to confess to, say an Act of Perfect Contrition and make a resolution to confess as soon as possible.
“My God, I am sorry for my sins with all my heart. In choosing to do wrong and failing to do good, I have sinned against You, whom I should love above all things. I firmly intend, with Your help, to do penance, to sin no more, and to avoid whatever leads me to sin.”
This is an example. If you cannot remember the words exactly it is OK. The contrition is not because of God’s just punishments or the fear of hell but because of the wrong done to God who is all Good.
This is a good explainer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrition
“Priests who minister the sacraments to the Christian faithful who are in a life-and-death situation should not neglect to impart to them the apostolic blessing, with its attached indulgence. But if a priest cannot be present, holy mother Church lovingly grants such persons who are rightly disposed a plenary indulgence to be obtained in articulo mortis, at the approach of death, provided they regularly prayed in some way during their lifetime. The use of a crucifix or a cross is recommended in obtaining this plenary indulgence.
“In such a situation the three usual conditions required in order to gain a plenary indulgence are substituted for by the condition ‘provided they regularly prayed in some way.’
“The Christian faithful can obtain the plenary indulgence mentioned here as death approaches (in articulo mortis) even if they had already obtained another plenary indulgence that same day.”
So now asking for an audience with a Bishop and attending a Latin Mass is “intimidation”. They used to say that attending a Latin Mass is fomenting division.
Jon, I hold no brief for or against the TLM, but after reading the article and the tone of your 4:15 response, I can scarcely believe my poor eyes. What in the world prompted you to assign such turpitude to parishioners seeking out the Cardinal? Were you there? To assign such indignities to those with whom you disagree is no great commendation of your reasoning. If you wish to convince me, and I am open to being convinced, do so with facts without the tar and feathers, please.
Dan, firstly, the article itself is practically is telling you what may have transpired; you only have to read between the lines. And I am guessing that your “poor eyes” can still do that. The writer is almost pointing it out to the reader. Plus, based on the same article my comment fleshes out what may have occurred; I mean, my comment above is well-written.
Secondly, I am not here to convince you nor anyone. My task here is to convey the truth as I see it. And conveying the truth here has usually meant having to correct people here.
No, jon, you have no “task” at all, on this website! You are only a mere layman, and only allowed– within limits– to write your opinion on an article! Just like everyone else! Only a priest or prelate has the authority to teach the Catholic Faith to people, and help them with it in their lives. Not you!
“you only have to read between the lines. ..” No Jon, I will not read between the lines. Your rhetoric needs confirmation, not guestimation.
Dan, you’re mistaken on two counts. Firstly, I need not confirm nor convince you of anything. Secondly, I am not “guesstimating” anything. My original post principally asks questions concerning the behavior of this group last Sunday, questions inferred from actively reading the article and from reading between the lines, which any responsible and active reader naturally does.
How did so many bishops lose touch with the faithful? Indeed, the smoke of Satan has entered the Church. Not my words.
Losing touch with the faithful? That is a concerning statement. I care if they have lost touch with God.
The Smoke of Satan were those errors that tried to stifle the fruits of Vatican Council II. Look it up.
What is the crack through which the smoke enters the Church? Ponder that.
nnn– Pope St. Paul VI spoke of the “crack” through which the Smoke of Satan entered the Church– which he explained, referred to the fact that as the Council Fathers desired to open up the holy Church to the corrupt, sinful secular world, presumably to get some “fresh air” (“fresh ideas”)— after being closed to the secular world for centuries!– the result was, the Church then immediately let in the sinful, “worldly” Smoke of Satan into God’s holy sanctuary! Very simple reasining!
Christifidelis, no that is not correct.
Have you read the Vatcian II documents?
What happened after the Council, the fissure or crack through which the smoke of Satan entered the Church was doubt, willful doubts of the authority and certain teaching of the Church. It is disquiet, dissatisfaction and confrontation.
Distrust of the Church is where Satan enters.
Christifidelis—- Why all the exclamation points? They add nothing to your arguments but a hint of hysteria. Another poster used the same tactic. Perhaps you are really that former poster using a new moniker.
The TLM should not be celebrated anymore. God bless the courageous bishops who are implementing Vatican II only Mass in their diocese.
You act as if you’ve won something, giving high fives as if the Church is her passion is a mere sporting event. Tone deaf.
The ad hominem strategy is frequently used by devotees of the Latin Mass to smear those who make decisions contrary to their efforts or wishes. It is on full display here in their attacks (“aloof,” closed door policy, etc.) on the Archbishop presented without any evidence, instead using hearsay comments from supposed people in the know.
The vile attacks on the old Latin Mass are a waste of time and ignorant. Who cares? The old Latin Mass is lovely– and was never abrogated at Vatican II! I recall going to the old Latin Mass in lovely Guadalajara, when vacationing there, before Vatican II! So the current Archbishop ignorantly thinks that lovely Mass was “horrible?” No way!
Who and where is anyone attacking the TLM?
If your question is serious then you really are confused and beyond reach.
People, if the beloved FSSP wants to: why don’t they offer weddings, funerals, and other celebrations (which this CWR article ridiculously claims that the Cardinal has “eliminated”) in the Ordinary Form? I am sure they can find ways of offering it reverently, devoutly, and even entirely in Latin, even ad orientem. It will benefit the entire Church if these “Ecclesia Dei” communities like the beloved FSSP and the Institute of Christ the King were to offer the Ordinary Form, thereby showing all of us how it can be celebrated reverently, according to tradition.
And if the priests of the beloved FSSP refuse to offer those weddings, funerals, and other celebrations in the Ordinary Form, then the Cardinal should dig deeper as to why. Then I daresay, what Pope Francis has written in “Triditionis custodes” will again be proven to be all true.
You will have to eat lots of crow when a future pontiff flushes away Traditionis custodes and his reasons will be what we are saying now. You will have to obey Jon.
Sorry, Chaos, the liturgical reform is irreversible. The TLM is deficient in ecclesiology because it doesn’t give the assembly the dignity of authentically participating in the liturgy: they are bystanders, irrelevant to the celebration of the liturgy, with no official role.
The reformed liturgy gives the assembly a proper, dignified, official liturgical role, thus the structure of the reformed Mass is superior to the TLM.
The TLM will die out except among schismatics. To support the TLM is ipso facto to deny the validity of Vatican II’s liturgical reforms and ipso facto to deny the validity of Vatican II.
Even if a TLM supporter says that he supports Vatican II and the new Mass as long as he personally doesn’t have to go along with it because he gets to keep his TLM in his little enclave TLM community, he is implicitly rejecting Vatican II for himself and separating himself from the Vatican II Church, thus placing himself in opposition to the Church and her will for the liturgy.
I have no patience with TLM supporters anymore. They are showing themselves to be exactly what Pope Francis said in Traditionis Custodes.
Right, why don’t you address the issue at hand, “You,” instead of attempting to deflect it? The issues are: Why don’t the beloved FSSP and the beloved Institute of Christ the King show that they adhere to Vatican II, and that they recognize the validity of the Ordinary Form, by offering it daily in their churches, seminaries, oratories, and apostolates? Why are these people so afraid of the Ordinary Form?
The issue at hand is a pope who wants to limit access to Mass and the sacraments in an endeavor he calls “unity”. It isn’t, and that he won’t take his usual approach of dialoguing it to death shows the depth of his contempt for a large chunk of his flock.
You can try to rationalize his move as being very Catholic, but it’s his personal distaste for tradition that’s behind all of this heavy handed chaos.
No one is limiting access to Mass. stop creating chaos.
Any loyal and faithful and traditional Catholic should take vigorous exceptions to “YFChaos'” attempt to malign Pope Francis: “shows the depth of his contempt for a large chunk of his flock” and “his personal distaste for tradition.” Essentially folks, YFChaos doesn’t know the real truth apart from what he/she has read from anti-Pope blogs, commentators, YouTube clips, and the like. And folks, there are millions of Catholics who have bought into the anti-Francis bandwagon. It’s everywhere. Rather than saying that the Pope is anti-tradition, the safer thing to say and to think is that the Holy Father, Pope Francis, is anti-disunity because he loves the Church and knows that disunity in the Church is deadly. The Holy Father is brave for taking on and correcting the divisive people from the right side of the Church, for the sake of the life of the entire Church. God bless Pope Francis.
Dear Confused, the one limiting access to Mass is the pope. This is chaos, and he’s causing it, objecting to his actions is a totally appropriate response.
How can people use the Latin Mass to tear apart the body of Christ? Satan is active.
All good Catholics will obey.
This is the problem. Protestantism has infected the people who attend the Catholic Church.
Faithful Catholics let those God has put in charge make the decisions and they obey without complaining.
Protestants want everything tailored to their own desires and change churches based on how they like the service and the pastor.
And where exactly does it say thou shall not complain?
It is usually called grumbling. I am going to assume that the question was legit and the word exactly means you want references.
Exodus 16:8 Your grumbling is not against us, but against the LORD.” (Although in this instance, the Lord responded to their grumbling by giving them manna but also quail.)
Philippians 2:14 Do everything without grumbling or questioning
1 Cor 10:10 Do not grumble as some of them did, and suffered death by the destroyer. This refers to
Numbers 11:1 Now the people complained bitterly in the hearing of the LORD; and when he heard it his wrath flared up, so that the LORD’s fire burned among them and consumed the outskirts of the camp.
Numbers 12-14, 16 and 21 have the stories of Miriam’s punishment for complaining against Moses, the Israelites punishment of wandering in the desert for 40 years, Korah and his family’s punishment and the punishment of the seraph serpents-all for grumbling.
jon, FSSP is a Clerical Society of Apostolic Life of Pontifical Rite.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/cod-iuris-canonici/eng/documents/cic_lib2-cann731-746_en.html
By that logic, History Major, any Bishop can have any Mass or no Mass celebrated in his diocese. I believe this canon refers to disciplinary rules, such as whether to eat meat on Fridays. A Bishop could ordain other Bishops without the consent of Rome. Besides which, the Pope has immediate jurisdiction over all Catholics. I’ll let you look up that Canon.
History Major’s citing of Canon Law is appropriate, and several bishops have appealed to that law as justification for allowing the TLM to be celebrated at a parish church where doing so serves a genuine pastoral need for the spiritual welfare of a group attached to the TLM if no other suitable place that isn’t a parish church could be found where they could celebrate the TLM. Such an exception may be made temporarily until TLM groups can be phased into celebrating the Novus Ordo Mass instead of the TLM, which is what should start happening all over the world now.
But what the Archbishop of San Francisco is doing is celebrating new TLMs as special occasions without encouraging his flock to unify around the Novus Ordo Mass. That’s wrong of him. Cordileone is continuing to celebrate the TLM as if there’s nothing wrong with doing so, as if the TLM is a valid, equivalent or even preferable option to celebrating the Novus Ordo. It’s not. Not anymore.
Sorry, but Pope Francis has taught, declared and legislated that the Novus Ordo is the unique liturgical prayer of the Roman Rite and that the TLM is to be curtailed and then phased out so that the Church may unify around the Novus Ordo liturgy.
“To unify” means for all parties to come to a mutual agreement behind something that they all freely believe in and support, together. Otherwise, there is no true “unity.” In 1969, not many Catholics were happy with the New Mass– it was a terrible shock! Many left the Church. Over 200,000 priests and some prelates resigned. Thousands of nuns also left their religious orders. Many Catholic parish schools closed. A big priest shortage was predicted– and soon came to pass– and many seminaries closed. The Catholic Church soon began to fall into chaos! Pope St. John Paul II spoke of the huge “Silent Apostasy” that he dared not try to fix, during his reign– for fear that the whole Catholic Church might fall totally to pieces! We need truly excellent spiritual leadership, to unify our Church! It has been noted, that this will probably not happen, in today’s Church. Maybe in future centuries.
So much for being aligned with an apostate Church.
I think I am on a “different planet” than many others here, and some of the modern clergy, too. I am a lot like our Archbishop Cordileone in my thinking, and Pope Benedict emeritus. I was born in a different era, I view most types of “modernism” in philosophy, originating from terribly ridiculous and destructive late-19th century concepts– as extremely disrespectful, dangerous, useless, and terribly destructive. I recall attending daily Mass long ago, all dressed up, with a mantilla always in my purse, for Mass or Visits to the Blessed Sacrament. In those days, women always dressed up in pretty dresses (not pants) and heels, all the time. We women always looked nice! There were good rules for society– “watch your Manners and your Morals”– and people had much nicer behavior! You knew all your neighbors– and their kids, and their pets, too!– and the world was pretty safe! Our town had a “zero crime rate,” every year! People never locked doors to their homes. Churches were always open, 24/7, and were packed on Sundays, with big families, lots of priests and nuns, lots of respect for God. No crazy, radical “baloney” was allowed, nor even existed! Very family-oriented society, big family dinners after Sunday Mass.
My post of Sept. 30 at 5:46 pm was edited. To conclude, I will just say, I am of a “different culture” than many commenters, here. I have a completely different viewpoint. I only have a few years left– the hope of Heaven is the next step! No use bothering with liturgical arguments, waste of time! What shall I– or anyone else– have, in our souls– for Christ, in a few years’ time? That is what I am most interested in.
You said it alright Christifidelis: you are on a “different planet.”
Snide remarks such as this won’t stop Christifedelis from praying for The Church and disrespectful people like the one who posted this insult. Vulgar and snide are evil twins whose fruits are rotten.
why all the exclamation points? maybe it’s old wine in new skins, rather than the other way around.
Historically, the Mass has always had revisions, down through the centuries– and always will. There will always be new popes and prelates, in new historical eras, with new ideas, and revisions to the Mass, and new Scriptural translations, for people who speak new versions of languages we all know. A few centuries from now, probably no one will even know the term, “Novus Ordo Missae.” The languages and some customs will always change, and people will only know whatever kind of Mass they have, for their era. New Synods and Councils will be held, too, and we will also have new scholars, new religious orders, and new saints! Beware– Christ left us the Holy Mass only until He comes again! When He comes again, the Mass will no longer be necessary! It is only meant to prepare us for Him.
The Pope’s crackdown on the Latin Mass shows that our religious leaders are capable of disciplining members of the Church. Many Churches in Germany started blessing homosexual unions. This is not only a direct attack against Jesus Christ, but the entire Holy Trinity. Let’s see if our religious leaders are interested in defending the glory and honor of the Holy Trinity. By their actions they will show us if they love God.
People, let me explain something to you. If you’re experiencing “frustration” and even “anger” because of the Holy Father’s motu propio, it’s because you have so separated yourselves from the Church, and have thrashed in your hearts the teachings of Vatican II and the validity of the Ordinary Form. You have “persecuted” in your hearts the “Novus Ordo Mass” (“oooh, the Mass of the ‘new world order’; how spooky; plus, they have puppets and dancing women in that sacrilegious Mass; don’t go to that Mass, it’s bad for you”); and you may have looked down on those “contracepting” Catholics who go to the “new Mass.” But now, many who self-label themselves as “trad-Catholics” are portraying themselves as the “persecuted” ones. It’s hilariously ludicrous. Honestly, I never thought that these people would employ the “victim” card of the leftist Democrats.
or they are just immature and they need to advance spiritually.
jon, one of the best prayers a Catholic can say each day, is the beautiful “Litany of Humility,” attributed to Cardinal Merry del Val, along with the beautiful “Prayer of St. Francis,” “Lord, make me an instrument of Your peace..” (etc.) To be hopefully transformed in Christ, oneday, is the whole reason for the Catholic Faith, and our whole reason for existence. Otherwise, all is futile.
With “Traditionis custodes,” Pope Francis is empowering the bishops again to regulate the celebration of the beautiful Mass in the Extraordinary Form because this glorious Mass was being used by certain corrupt people to divide the Church, to manifest their disapproval of Vatican II and the Ordinary Form, and to amass whatever power in the Church they can get. That’s divisive, people. The Mass itself does not cause division; the division is in your hearts. You have to repent of that divisiveness. I have warned people in this blog for years about their divisiveness and dissent. They didn’t listen. As a consequence we now have “Traditionis custodes.” People, you have brought this upon yourselves.
Again, jon, nobody is “using” the lovely old Latin Mass to “divide” and “destroy” the Catholic Church! Ridiculous! The Mass certainly does not “belong” to these “idiot crackpots”– nor to anyone else! It belongs, rightfully– to only Jesus Christ! We are going to attend the Archbishop’s lovely old Latin Mass and Rosary today, at a beautiful old church. Ignore the goofed-up, mentally unstable, crazy “radicals” and “crackpots” out there! Then, you will be just normal, and happy! The Pope also has been told, that he has over-reacted to a small group of “unstable radical crackpots,” and really needed to get more accurate infornation, before writing his recent motu proprio. This Mass today, will be very lovely, holy– and also– so “boringly normal!” Not a “nutcase” or “crazy radical” person in sight! Too bad you don’t see the truth, and waste your time in writing hateful comments, to truly nice people, in our Church!
When the Archbishop schedules a Latin Tridentine Mass, it is announced, and anyone who wants to, can simply go to the Mass. There is no ” political agenda,: no “power and control” from some “radical, nutty group.” Nothing is ever said about Vatican II, the Pope’s latest motu proprio, Pope Benedict’s motu proprio.
Chritifidelis, yes people are doing that. Maybe not you and jon who both attend the TLM but there are some people who are intentionally writing things online and kind of brainwashing people. They even install fear of the newer Mass and Vatican II.
We have been warning about these people for years and they are multiplying because so many people fell for it and they made a tidy sum. We saw it beginning. We raised warnings about the red flags like untruths and distortions.
Just because you are attending the TLM and not trying to create division doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.
In the old days, we used to think that the purpose of going to Mass was to worship God. Now we are being told that the purpose of going to Mass is to cause division in the Church.
If that’s what you’re being told by the beloved FSSP and Institute as the purpose for going to Mass, then yeah, they’re divisive.
The beloved FSSP never told me no such thing. Some person keeps writing comments here about people going to Latin Masses to make some kind of statement, to gain power, and to cause division in the Church. The only statement that is made by what takes place at a Latin Mass is that God is the Supreme Being who deserves our love, reverence, and worship. If someone can gain power by going to Mass, then perhaps little old ladies that go to Church every day would not be poor and defenseless. How do you cause division in the Church by worshiping God? Does half the Church worship Satan and gets offended when God is worshiped?
Editor, I think this is inappropriate naming.
At the end of October, Archbishop Cordileone will be involved in the Populum Summorum Pontificum (“People of Summorum Pontificum”) annual pilgrimage to Rome. At the annual pilgrimage, there are many Tridentine Latin Masses, religious devotions, and ceremonies, with the Pope’s presence at the Vatican, to give thanks for the Summorum Pontificum of Pope Benedict. Also, the Archbishop is continuing with his big program, to train interested priests how to say the old Latin Mass.
Sorry, in my post of Oct. 2 at 3:38am, I misspelled “Populus!” The annual Populus Summorum Pontificum is a huge international annual pilgrimage.
In case you haven’t heard, Summorum Pontificum has been abrogated by Traditionis Custodes.
The Archbishop is misguidedly continuing with his “big program” to train priests to say a Mass that is going to be decommissioned in the Roman Church: the 1962 Missal is obsolete. Is he training future defectors to the SSPX? Because the future of the Roman Church is the Novus Ordo Missae exclusively. Exclusively.
Attachment to the 1962 Missal is ipso facto a rejection of Vatican II and a rejection of the present-day Church. Best to get used to the Novus Ordo, and even better to help your local parish celebrate the Novus Ordo reverently and authentically.
“No more,” Catholic prelates are huge religious leaders, given the right to make their own decisions in their own dioceses. If you are a Catholic, you can humbly ask questions of your own bishop, and see what his decisions are, for your own diocese. If you don’t agree, maybe you can go to a nearby diocese, with a bishop who does things differently.
People, Archbishop Cordileone is not working to divide the Church; he is working to unify it. He celebrates Masses in both the Ordinary and the Extraordinary Form, and I am sure he wants all the celebrations of the Ordinary Form to be reverent. We have no problems with Cordileone, people.
The issue is the exclusivist groups out there (the beloved SSPX, FSSP, ICRSS) who only want to offer the Extraordinary Form thereby casting negativity over the Ordinary Form and dividing the Church. Why won’t they offer the Ordinary Form? Why are they so afraid of it? They can do it reverently, in Latin, ad orientem. Show the rest of the Church how it should be offered, instead of denigrating it.
Plus, Cordileone doesn’t have to deal with the beloved FSSP and the Institute of Christ the King in his own Archdiocese. He hasn’t given them a parish. Why not? Could it be because he himself knows how divisive those groups can be? Who knows. And so the Archbishop can go to pilgrimages like “Summorum Pontificum” and be nice to them.
But prelates like the Cardinal Archbishop of Guadalajara and the Archbishop of Dijon have a tougher job because they have to deal with these groups. And they’re doing the best they can to unite their flock from those who would divide it.
jon, glad that you appreciate the good work of our fine Archbishop Cordileone. What he struggles with– the true divisive problem in the Catholic Church– has nothing to do with the liturgy. It is the terrible problem of the “bad Catholics” who refuse to accept the Church’s moral teachings, and are pro-Abortion, pro-LGBT “marriage” and etc., and mistreat the good Archbishop and the Church, with very vile, extreme attacks. So-called “Catholic” political leaders in power, like Rep. Nancy Pelosi and Pres. Joe Biden– who publicly refuse to accept the Church’s moral teachings– and promote laws to kill the unborn, and do horrific damage– this is the true source of division in the Church, and this is the gigantic struggle which Abp. Cordileone deals with. At the end of October, Pres. Biden will have a meeting with the Pope, at the Vatican. Will the Pope have anything to say to him, regarding his rejection of Christian morality?
jon– I have talked to several priests of the FSSP and ICKSP, and talked to proud mothers of a few new priests of these groups, also, and have attended some of their Masses. The bishop of Oakland– who loves the old Latin Mass– invited the ICKSP to come to his Diocese, some years ago, and say the old Latin Mass at St. Margaret Mary’s Church, in Oakland. St. Margaret Mary’s also has Novus Ordo Masses, in both English and Latin. They also used to have a bi-ritual pastor, fluent in both the Ukrainian Catholic and regular (Latin Rite) Catholic Masses– of which he noted that his Ukranian mother was very proud. Well, I have never heard any FSSP or ICKSP priests express “divisive” words regarding the Church, Vatican II, etc. Only that these groups have a “liturgical specialty” to offer, that enriches the Church. The Bishop of Oakland also asked a group of traditional enclosed Carmelite Nuns to come to his Diocese, some years ago, which is flourishing. They have both the Novus Ordo and old Latin Masses available, and two brothers of the Prioress are FSSP priests.
Sorry– I goofed! Mother Mary Catherine is the Subprioress of her Carmelite Monastery in Kensington, in the Oakland Diocese! She comes from a big, homeschooled family of devout Catholics, and two of her brothers are FSSP priests.
There were enough bishops worldwide who responded to the survey a couple of years ago who had negative experiences with some groups that offer the Extraordinary Form that the Holy Father Pope Francis had to intervene. So now we have “Traditionis custodes.” Some people here who flood this blog with their comments would rather like to ignore that fact by not mentioning it. Instead they’d mention repeatedly those who do not accept the moral teachings of the Church, such as the usual suspects like Pelosi and Biden; don’t get me wrong, those two especially need a bit more pastoring, but they’re not the only problems in the Church. The Pope’s latest motu propio points to another serious problem: those who’d exploit the TLM in order to sow division in the Church. A very grave problem.
Remember, not every person who happens to love a particular liturgical style is a “divisive” Catholic, “exploiting” a liturgical form. Ignore the “radicals” that bother you, they have nothing to do with you, and you don’t need to listen to any of them. Just go to Mass and worship God. A liturgical form makes no difference. What is extremely important, is leading a good moral life, following Christ, doing good for Christ in the world, and preparing your soul for Heaven.
Christifidelis, the radicals that you want ignored are potentially causing the loss of souls. We have seen the problem first hand. Just like radical progressives got into higher education in some Catholic universities, these different error-filled people are influencing at least one of the universities that stayed traditional. What should be a safe environment to send your Catholic kids is still OK, but you need to be careful who your kids hang around with (nothing new there). Most of the errors are in the student body but I see it creeping up.
Luke 18:8
The fact that these groups (you know who they are; the “beloved” as I call them) do not offer the Ordinary Form does not necessarily speak of “liturgical specialty.” This is disingenuous. They speak of division. What’s wrong with the Mass of Pope Paul VI that they won’t offer them to the Catholic faithful? eh? Plus, the priests of these “beloved” institutes and fraternities are priests of the Latin Rite, and the Latin Rite has two forms (until of course “Traditionis custodes” came along). They should offer both of the forms. As even Fr. Z would say (paraphrasing here): “A priest who knows only half of his rite, is only half a priest.” Many diocesan priests have learned the Extraordinary Form; so why can’t these beloved groups learn the Ordinary? Again, why are they so afraid of the Mass of Pope Paul VI? I keep asking this question, yet those who flood the comments here with irrelevancies wouldn’t address this fact. Very telling.
Many good Catholics would love to see a very dedicated Catholic Pope who loves and supports both liturgies, the old and the new, like Pope Benedict XVI emeritus. And even more– many would love to see a truly honest, dedicated Catholic Pope, who will fearlessly lead the Catholic Church for Christ, against today’s very dangerous, diabolic evils, such as Abortion, same-sex “marriage,” and other deadly sexual sins, etc., destroying Christian Morality, the institution of Marriage and Family, and destroying the Church, and destroying many countries, worldwide. This Pope is full of shocking ambiguity on Catholic teaching, and thus constantly sows seeds of confusion and rebellion, worldwide. People are sick of it. And people are sick of his highly inappropriate “babying” of hard-headed, sinful “bad Catholic” leaders, allowing them to receive Holy Communion as they wish– with no moral conscience, no Confession of sin, no repentance.
Many good Catholics would love to see a very dedicated Catholic Pope who loves and supports both liturgies, the old and the new, like Pope Benedict XVI emeritus. And even more– many would love to see a truly honest, dedicated Catholic Pope, who will fearlessly lead the Catholic Church for Christ, against today’s very dangerous, diabolic evils, such as Abortion, same-sex “marriage,” and other deadly sexual sins, etc., destroying Christian Morality, the institution of Marriage and Family, and destroying the Church, and destroying many countries, worldwide. This Pope is full of shocking ambiguity on Catholic teaching, and thus constantly sows seeds of confusion and rebellion, worldwide. People are sick of it. And people are sick of his highly inappropriate “babying” of hard-headed, sinful “bad Catholic” leaders, allowing them to receive Holy Communion as they wish– with no moral conscience, no Confession of sin, no repentance.
It has been reported that the Vatican, under Pope Francis, was very busy with Apostolic Visitations to contemplative religious orders in recent years, and there have been news reports that Vatican officials actually got nuns terminated from contemplative orders who have shown interest– like Mother Angelica– in Catholic Tradition and the old Latin Mass. Mother Angelica’s religious order is reported to have had about 45 professed nuns at one time, when she was alive. Now her religious order is reported to have only about 14 professed nuns. Some are from other Poor Clare foundations that fell apart and merged with Mother Angelica’s Poor Clare nuns, after the Vatican Visitations, and some Tradition-loving nuns being terminated. And Mother Angelica’s nuns are now reported to be forced to be a little more open to leftist ideologies, such as the immoral “LGBT” agenda. Poor Mother Angelica, and her good nuns, tragically persecuted by their own Church!
Even Cardinal Turkson of Ghana warned the American bishops not to use Holy Communion as a political weapon.
Cardinal Cupich and Bishop McElroy said the same thing– are those the prelates ehom you follow, jon? Many sincere, devout Catholics do not view good Church discipline, following Canon Law, as anything related to secular politics.
Sorry for the typing error in my post of Oct. 4th at 11:43pm. The first sentence should read “–are those the prelates whom (not “ehom”) you follow, jon?” Really. jon, do you think our Canon Law and religious training is of no value? Don’t you think “bad Catholics” like Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden, etc., should be denied Holy Communion, and told to first responsibly go to Confession and do penance, and publicly renounce their serious sins? Don’t you think it is a big responsibility of the Church to require this? We are supposed to take great care, to respect Our Lord– and to follow all rules for reception of Holy Communion, and to only receive Our Lord in a state of grace.
“Christifidelis” writes, “We are supposed to take great care to respect our Lord.” If one does not respect Our Lord’s Vicar on Earth whom we can see, how can you Christifidelis respect Our Lord Himself Whom you cannot see. Not giving the Pope the benefit of the doubt, casting aside the Pope’s valid and worthy advice to the American bishops to be “pastors” and not “politicians”, and just portraying him in a bad light publicly are not the “traditional” behavior of Catholic towards his/her Pontiff. The argument to follow Canon Law with respect to Holy Communion rings hollow when one does not follow other laws of the Canon such as not inciting antipathy towards the Pope and the Holy See.
Sorry, jon, Christ Alone is the Lord, Who died for our sins! True, sincere Catholics have eyes to see Him, ears to hear Him, a heart to love Him, and the will to follow Him! Currently, Catholics suffer terribly, with a pope and many prelates who are all deaf to Christ, and dishonest– they ignore Him, give His teachings with deliberate confusion and ambiguity, and follow their own wrongful human ideas, irresponsibly failing to respect Christ, and failing to respect Canon Law. Insincere, irresponsible hypocrites. Very poor leadership.
That will be my final post on this subject. Will not waste any more time on replies– insane!
Christifidelis, I must say you have exhibited much virtue and decorum in the face of much disrespect. My father would not have tolerated me disrespecting my mother the way you were disrespected here. A young man who speaks for the Pope should not be telling elderly women that they are from another planet. Clearly the parents of this time period have not been teaching their children to respect others. I thank you for showing us a better way to behave than what now passes for normal.
People: When I comment here, I do not care what your gender is, nor do I care how old you are. I respond according to the merits and veracity of your comments. I do not know anyone here personally, neither does anyone here know me personally. It’s only according to one’s comments, people, that I or anyone here can respond. Additionally, for the record people, it was “Christifidelis” herself who said she must be from a “different planet.” Do check the record please. Lastly, for a Catholic to thrash the Pope here is like a child disrespecting his own father or mother; and what is worse is that the Pope, like him or not, is the spiritual father of all Catholics.
Young man, that is no excuse for being disrespectful and rude.
The tone and attitude I adopt when I comment here is the same tone and attitude that you people exhibit when you comment about the Pope and the bishops. Now, if you folks happen to find my tone and attitude “disrespectful and rude,” then perhaps you people should alter your own tone and attitude when speaking about bishops and the Holy Father. Capeesh?
Jesus did not teach us to hate our enemies and do evil to those who persecute us. Jesus taught us the opposite. Someone who publicly represents the Pope should follow the example of Jesus.
Christifidelis, I strongly disagree with your assessment that the Pope ignores Christ or teaches with confusion and ambiguity. I think you are confusing what the Pope actually says with what the muckrakers on the Internet say he says or how they interpret what he says. Do you know how to find out what the Pope really says? He is very certainly not deaf to Christ.
The devil attacks every Pope. I know a young Catholic who told me that they were glad they had seen the Pope in person. They could tell they were in the presence of a very holy person. They said that it if they hadn’t seen him and had that experience they would likely have believed all the negative remarks about the Pope they see online. They are grateful for having been preserved from that deception.
Folks, the divisiveness that the Holy Father wrote about in “Traditionis custodes” is found in the hearts of people. It is not the Mass that is divisive, nor did it cause division. Rather, attendance to it is being construed by some irresponsible people (again, think of some of the “beloveds” out there, or those irresponsible blogs, or those who are in the lecture circuit) as a way of “fleeing” from Vatican II or the Ordinary Form.
So a Mass that does not cause division should be banned because some people assign motives for attending the Mass. I guess anything can be banned.
The motives are not assigned, but are manifested. Why else do the beloved FSSP, ICRSS, and SSPX (for that matter) refuse to offer the Ordinary Form on a regular basis, daily? What possible motive could be behind that?
No, the motives are manifested in your mind, therefore, by you they are being assigned. Your question is nothing more than an attempt to speculate. Perhaps they celebrate the old Mass because they like it.
BTW people, if you’re going to assert that someone here is lying, such as fabricating a name to indicate that, you better have proof ok? Therefore I challenge you, “Jon Lyez” to prove it. And btw, you are admonished for fabricating lewd and inappropriate names here in the past, if you’re the one responsible for them. Shameful.
I am sorry if you are offended by my name. I am willing to apologize if I have offended others, which is something that you did not do after telling someone else that they are from another planet. I have never seen you apologize to anyone after being mean to them. There are too many people in the world that enjoy being mean to others. I am willing to use another name if you are bothered by my name. Would Khan Lyez be acceptable to you? I do not know of anyone else here who uses the name Khan. I do not wish to injure your poor feelings, dear neighbor.
Hey, I can’t help it if “Christifidelis” believes she’s on a “different planet.” By mentioning it, I was merely amplifying her words so that other people may also know that she believes she’s “on a different planet.” I hope that clears it up for you.
Anyone who has been around the elderly knows that they have trouble finding the right word that they want to use. The word that Christifidelis wanted to use was culture but the only word that she could remember at the time was planet.
In the beginning of his Pontificate, Pope Francis urged respect for the elderly. If you speak for the Pope over here, then why don’t you listen to him? The elderly deserve love, compassion, and patience.
People, let me inform you of the nature of commenting on a blog like this. It is totally anonymous. A person can conceivably come here, and unnecessarily claim to be a young woman, or a young man, or a mother, or an elderly person, or a priest, or a Church volunteer, or a seminarian, whatever. Anyone can create a virtual “persona” here. For what purpose? Either to have people support or sympathize with their comment by portraying themselves through these anonymous “personas” or to just fill their lonely hours by hanging out here and “connecting” with people. It’s sad.
Consequently, people can write whatever they want here (and more often than not what’s written here is unjustly critical of the Church and her ministers), and get away with it, without any social consequences; while the damage done to the Church may be irreparable. It’s irresponsible what some people write here.
So people, I take these virtual anonymous “persona” with two pinches of salt. I disregard them, knowing that anyone here can just portray himself or herself as anything they want: college student, working mom, unemployed dad, elderly lady, clergy, CEO, whatever.
And as far as we know “jon”, you are that heavily pierced and tattooed girl asking if I want fries with that, and so what. Your posts tell us who you are, or pretending to be, your moniker is meaningless, and your unsubstantiated claims of understanding Church doctrine are your own fantasy. We all get it, strange you feel the need to babble on about it.
My rule is: I comment only based on the merits and the truth of what I read concerning a topic. If a commenter says he is “on a different planet,” so be it. If he/she claims to be on a different “culture,” fine.
What does merits and truth have to do with being quick to take advantage of an occasion to tell an elderly person that they are from another planet? If a person is struggling to find the right words because of old age, should that person be attacked mercilessly? Your lack of contrition and lack of an apology is very revealing. Shameful. And to think of all things you publicly represent yourself as someone who speaks for the Pope. With messengers like you, the Pope does not need enemies. Shameful.
“Name,” if a person here like “Christifidelis” says he/she is “on a different planet” that’s totally fine; he/she shouldn’t be ashamed of that. He/she should own it. And if “Chrisitifidelis” also believes she/he is from a “different culture”, that’s totally fine. We all love different cultures, and different planets too. In fact the Pope loves to embrace issues like justice for immigrants, justice for those in the margins of society, and consideration for those from “alien cultures”, regardless of age. So yeah, I can imagine that even those “on a different planet” overtime may find their cause being taken up by Francis. So “Christifidelis” should really be thankful for the gift of Pope Francis to the Church. I therefore expect nicer and more favorable words from him/her about the Pope. Cheerio!
The record clearly shows that Christifidelis meant to say that she is from another culture. The issue that you are deflecting from is that you said that Christifidelis is from another planet. The record clearly shows that. Your recent sarcastic comment reinforces the idea that Christifididelis is from another planet. Even though you are giving everyone else here pious and sanctimonious sermons about respecting the Pope, you show very little respect for others. Shameful. Are you exempt from the rules you expect everyone else who is here to follow?
Please the good Cardinal that this is not the 15th century and he is not a prince.He is supposed to be a servant.
Wrong. The motive has been correctly identified by the Holy Father Pope Francis in his “Traditionis custodes” where he writes that the opportunities opened up by the previous popes such as allowing the wider use of the Extraordinary Form were exploited to “widen gaps, reinforce divergences, and encourage disagreements.” My question btw speculates nothing. The refusal of these beloved groups to offer the Ordinary Form like the beloved FSSP speak of divisiveness. Your attempt to dodge that question is already a sign that neither you nor the beloved FSSP has any face-saving response.
Wrong jon, here is their response:
https://lmswrexham.weebly.com/news-blog/superior-generals-of-the-ecclesia-dei-institutes-release-statement-following-courtalain-meeting
Does Papal Infallibility now mean that the Pope always has perfect knowledge of the motives of people that he does not know or has never met? Does Papal Infallibility extend to people who speak for the Pope in Catholic websites?
I personally have a bigger connection with God when I go to the extraordinary form, in Latin. I think the church should offer both as they have been doing it.
Novus ordo masses, big churches, not a lot of people only during holidays, one priest who only confess Saturdays and another day of the week from 4:30 to 5:00. One day the priest left at 5:00 with a lot of people waiting. He said, “I am sorry, I have to go”. Only 2 masses per day, 3 on Sundays. Communion by hand is not only given by a priest but by lay people, including women.
Extraordinary or Latin mass, smaller churches, full of people all the time, 3 priests in each mass, one given the mass, the other 2 in confession. 6 masses on Sunday, 3 every day. Communion by the mouth only by the priest.