The following comes from a Dec. 2 story on CBS News.
A U.S. animal rights group on Monday filed what it said is the first lawsuit seeking to establish the “legal personhood” of chimpanzees.
The nonprofit Nonhuman Rights Project asked a New York state court to declare a 26-year-old chimp named Tommy “a cognitively complex autonomous legal person with the fundamental legal right not to be imprisoned.”
The lawsuit seeks a declaration that Tommy’s “detention” in a “small, dank, cement cage in a cavernous dark shed” in central New York is unlawful and demands his immediate release to a primate sanctuary.
Chimpanzees “possess complex cognitive abilities that are so strictly protected when they’re found in human beings,” Steven Wise, the president of Nonhuman Rights Project, told Reuters.
“There’s no reason why they should not be protected when they’re found in chimpanzees,” he added.
The lawsuit on Tommy’s behalf is among three the group is filing this week on behalf of four chimps across New York. The other chimps are Kiko, a 26-year-old chimp living on a private property in Niagara Falls, and Hercules and Leo, two young male chimps used in research at Stony Brook University on Long Island, the group said….
To read the entire story, click here.
I guess they have a right to marry too. Love should not be outlawed after all. We don’t want to be discriminating now, do we? That would be so unwarm and so unfuzzy of us small minded and intolerant bigots.
You’re right, Ski Ven. I once read about this outfit that wanted to do the same for dolphins. Why limit “personhood” to chimpanzees and dolphins? How will the other animals “feel” about that?
Don’t we let politicians marry?
Many times, in fact. Quite famously, Newt Gingrich got his wife to sign divorce papers while she was in the hospital so he could marry someone else. I’m sure he had this in mind when he passed the Defense of Marriage Act. Because, you know, if we let the gays marry each other, that would destroy Newt’s marriage(s).
Sodomy is not the same as procreation and it never can be. Sorry.
Your Fallen Catholic, you simply can’t resist defying the Church. Why these continual ridiculing of the Church’s teaching on marriage?
Good point. The politicians are a bunch of monkeys, after all.
Same sex unions, too?
He’s cute Ski. I’ll marry him – but only if he’s male.
Actually, I’ll marry them all. Polygamy is next, right?
Polygamy is as “Traditional” as marriage gets. Just ask Abraham, Jacob, David and Solomon.
Nope. Adam and Eve are as traditional as marriage can get. Nice try, Siollan.
Adam and Eve? Eve was cloned from Adam’s rib, making them genetic siblings. Even if Eve was genetically distinct, their progeny had no choice but propagate by means of incest. And it’s not like either had any choice of a partner.
That’s a creation myth. A fairy tale that’s communicating the idea of original sin. Abraham probably has at least some basis in history, though all of Genesis is a collection of tribal myths and legends passed through (and permutated by) generations of oral tradition before being committed to writing.
Ski Ven – Adam and Eve had two sons and no daughters. And then one killed the other. Nice little traditional family!
Genesis 5
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God.
2 Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created.
3 When Adam had lived a hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.
4 The days of Adam after he became the father of Seth were eight hundred years; and he had other sons and daughters.
5 Thus all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.
https://www.ewtn.com/ewtn/bible
YFC Christ knows of a little boy, innocent and kind, one who loved his pets and ate dinners with his parents, even when they had problems that little boy tried coping but he grew up and chose to sin, to live a lifestyle away from His natural law…..
the worst thing about that YFC is that this little boy was raised way after Christ came into the world and should know better. But refused to see with the eye’s of Christ. Christ came to save sinners from themselves but Adam and Eve sons didn’t have a Christ to come and open the gates of heaven. Their original sin was not washed by Christ’s blood yet back then. We learn that even when they knew God, they still chose to sin. But the one brother who was murdered, he was good and noble and kindhearted, that is why his brother was envious of him. Today we have spiritual envy and there are many spiritual murderers amongst us, murderers that murder the soul with their impure ideologies, their heresies. But look at how merciful the Lord was and is, he allowed him to live but not without further consequences. But you can thank the new Adam and Eve…..Jesus and Mary because they are the true Traditional Family….they are what we should strive to live out in this cruel and wicked world. As hard as it may be, but we must, it is for the greater good! YFC you need to care for the greater good. God bless you.
Beautiful post Abeca!
I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. I can never keep company with those who say that the Bible is a “fairy tale”. If one does not wish to live up to the teachings of Jesus Christ, then one can just say that the Bible is just a “fairy tale” in order to evade the moral demands of belief in Jesus Christ. Such a person then can justify doing anything he wants to do. Either you accept the testimony of God, or you accept the testimony of man. History shows that man is corrupt. I choose God, even though the belief that marriage is a union of one man and one woman seems unreasonable in the eyes of many.
Thank you for creating an entirely NEW NEVER BEFORE SEEN creation story! Praise Jesus for the stories created within our midst!
Thank you Catherine. Ski Ven you are right, the bible is the word of God! It is….the old testament shows us why we needed a savior and the new testament shows us how He came and showed us His passion. The old testament has many beautiful Psalms, words of wisdom and it gives a great indication of who our Lord is and of His natural law and the consequences that come to those who go against His commandments. Etc etc….I can go on and on….The bible is wisdom filled and the more we read His word and ask the Holy Ghost to speak to us through His holy word, we will grow a bit more. Praise be Jesus Christ…our Catholic faith, our church is not complete without the living word of God and when Catholics do not meditate on holy scripture with a good will of heart, then they become just like anyone else…….something that wont grow and does not form a healthy loving relationship with Christ.
St, Jerome did say that ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ!
To me knowledge of holy scripture helps us to embrace better our Catholic faith and it also helps us understand what it truly means to fear the Lord. With tears of joy I say this…for we must always keep a loving and obedient relationship with our Lord…
This is what Jesus Christ has said about marriage: “Have ye not read, that he who made man in the beginning, made them male and female? For this cause, shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh. Therefore they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.” Jesus was obviously referring to the Old Testament. Notice Jesus explicitly says male and female. He also says two shall be one flesh. He did not say three, four, or five. Defining marriage as a union of one man and one woman rules out polygamy. The opponents of Jesus then asked “Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorce, and to put away?” Jesus responded by saying: “Moses because of the hardness of your hearts permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.” The words of Jesus should be enough to convince a reasonable person that certain things were tolerated in the Old Testament that were not in keeping with God’s will. Unfortunately, many people don’t really care for what Jesus has to say. Many of them write comments on this website with big fat LOLs in them that trash those who love Jesus Christ. Siollan’s comments are an example of this. I hope they enjoy having a good laugh at someone else’s expense.
Ski Ven, I think you’re unfairly attributing a smugness or callousness to me that I don’t possess (or don’t think so, anyway). But then, I think I mistakenly read one of your comments as taking a literal interpretation of the Old Testament, or conveniently cherry picking it to support an argument.
Though I did actually think pointing out a distinction between monogamy w/concubines and polygamy was funny.
Matthew 19 is so perfectly appropriate, because it so clearly demonstrates how Jesus was challenging Judaic convention, but also clarifying and redefining it. It’s both upholding the 10 Commandments and monogamy, but it’s also a qualified stance on divorce (which in that era was a bit different anyhow, as it would be leaving the former wife destitute in most cases), and is also qualified by excusing eunuchs, which seems pretty broadly defined as anyone outside the natural inclination of a man/wife dynamic… He was speaking to his contemporaries, and things have changed a little.
Abraham was not a polygamist. He married his second wife after his first wife was dead. His first wife gave him her maid as a concubine which is not a marriage.
Lol. Anonymous; are you arguing that keeping concubines is morally superior to polygamy? Either way, it points out the absurdity of using the Old Testament as a guide to what’s become unassailably “traditional” a couple of millennia later.
Abraham slept with the concubine to conceive a child for his wife. He did not continue relations with her. She and the child were eventually run off. There is a difference between what God wills and what God permits. I did not speak on morals at all. It was just a correction to an error in the previous post. We do not look to the Old Testament figures to determine morality. We look to Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church which is infallible in matters of faith and morals.
Ski Ven, I think you are confusing two related but clearly separate questions in your post (Ski Ven says:
December 10, 2013 at 6:46 pm). You are now making the case that Jesus fundamentally redefined marriage under the new covenant. Perhaps he did redefine marriage for a new age.
But the point that the NOMs of the world, and that the Catholic Church tries to make, is that marriage has always and everywhere been about one man and one woman, and this is evidence of the natural law origin of marriage. Or at least it has almost always and almost everywhere been between one man and one woman. But even with the “almost” caveat, this is provably false, as most societies, including most of the Old Testamant world, were polygamous.
So it is not reasonable to say that marriage stems from natural law, then to say that Jesus reinvented what had been the natural law before him. Oh and never mind the fact that the historical evidence for #1m1w as NOM likes to say, is hardly persuasive or an accurate telling of history.
YFC, it is very dishonest and abusive of you to say that I said that Jesus redefined marriage. I am pretty sure that you are intelligent enough to know what I really said. That leaves only one other explanation as to why you have misrepresented my words. You are manifesting a desire to abuse people who love Jesus Christ. This is not just an isolated incident. This is part of a long term pattern of behavior on the part of those who wish to make sodomy equal with procreation. Businesses were already shut down by totalitarian sodomy fanatics for refusing to condone sodomy. In Britain, an elderly couple who does not rent their hotel room to unmarried couples was sued by a sodomitical couple. They ended up being forced out of business and losing everything for trying to run their business according their religious beliefs. They received lots of death threats and their car and home got vandalized repeatedly. Their website was hacked into and replaced with pornography. Their legal fight was so costly they now have no choice but to sell their home. So now they are left without a business and without a home to provide them shelter from a brutal winter. The sodomy fanatics delight in devouring religious people. They show no compassion for the elderly. They are truly hateful.
Ski Ven, you said Jesus changed the meaning and form of marriage from its pre-Christian form. I didn’t make that claim. You did. So if you think that concept is abusive, look inward. Don’t accuse me of all manner of theft and abuse and whatever else your mind went to. I simply mirrored your own words.
No, YFC. I did not say that. You tell a lie every time you say that I said that. Lying about someone else is abusive. You did not mirror my words. You made up a lie about my words. I do not need to look inward. I only need to look at Jesus. He is the way the truth and the life. Jesus shows me what God wanted marriage to be in “the beginning”. Jesus did not change the meaning of marriage. Man changed the meaning of marriage. Jesus brought marriage back to Gods will. That is not just me saying it. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says in section 1614 the following: “In his preaching Jesus unequivocally taught the original meaning of the union of man and woman as the Creator willed it from the beginning: permission given by Moses to divorce one’s wife was a concession to the hardness of hearts. The matrimonial union of man and woman is indissoluble: God himself has determined it: “what therefore God has joined together, let no man put asunder.”” Section 1615 also says that Jesus came to restore the original order of creation. That consisted of a union between ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN. That came directly from the hand of God in “the beginning”. Those who promote anything to the contrary are NOT my fellow Catholics. The way that you mistreat me shows that you certainly are not. Why don’t you try treating someone with respect for a change?
Ski Ven it’s pretty remarkable that when someone disagrees with you they must be automatically be lying, abusing, and all other manner of things. They can’t simply disagree with you.
I confess that I don’t recall reading that section of the Catechism. It’s a rather odd thing to say that a God which writes his law on our hearts and on tablets of stone decided not to prioritize such a central aspect of human ordering that he made “concessions” until Christ came along. It’s probably the only time I’ve ever seen Abraham described, even indirectly, as “hard hearted”.
YFC, You did not simply disagree with me. You misrepresented my words. Bearing false witness against your neighbor is not only abusive, it also is not Catholic. Perhaps you can find a way to disagree with someone without misrepresenting what they say. I look forward to seeing you improve in that regard. Perhaps it does seem odd to you that God allowed some things that weren’t in keeping with his will. I am not the type to question God’s wisdom. A parent does not expect a toddler to know anything about Algebra or Science when the child has not learned how to walk yet. Before a parent comes close to expecting a child to be able to handle advanced subjects, he or she makes sure the child can handle the basics, such as being able to walk on their own, count, read, and write. Mankind was brought really low due to original sin. Over and over again the people in the Old Testament ended up worshiping false gods. It seemed like not much can be expected of them. The people were breaking the 10 commandments at the very moment they were being issued. Many people died in the desert before they reached the promised land for grumbling against God. God had his hands full with those people. It was not possible to bring them into perfect conformity with God’s will. I guess some things had to wait until the coming of the Holy Spirit.
YFC, Abraham lived before Moses. He was not an Israelite. The hard-hearted comment was said by Jesus about those living under Mosaic Law.
Your post above which states “marriage has always and everywhere been about one man and one woman and this is evidence of the natural law origin of marriage.” No, that is not the evidence. The sexual complementarity of male and female, the fact that this is what produces new humans, and that these new humans are the most utterly dependent of newborns in the natural world is the evidence of it. A human baby needs the help of both parents to grow to maturity. The human has psychological and emotional needs that render the loss of either parent devastating. Polygamy, which is not God’s original intent for marriage, may have been an adaptive response to the loss of males during wars, also not God’s Will for His Will is for mankind to love and respect each other. I don’t know how prevalent polygamy was among the Hebrews. It takes great wealth to support multiple wives and their children. There are many paradoxes in the Scriptures. God made the twelve tribes of Israel, his chosen people, come from the sons of Jacob’s two wives and two concubines. We can’t use them as a justification for not obeying God’s commands. God sent His son as our Savior to redeem us, to teach us how to love and to live in a manner pleasing to Him.
YFC states, “…It’s probably the only time I’ve ever seen Abraham described, even indirectly, as “hard hearted.”
It’s rather odd to say that a ‘Fellow Catholic’ (YFC), who seems to prioritize himself around the issue of what should constitute marriage (SSM), should be so unfamiliar with a core tenant of Christ’s teachings on the subject until – say – Ski came along.
Especially a fellow Catholic who admonishes CCD posters to heed the press-twisted directives of Pope Francis at our own peril.
Who do you follow, YFC. Men or God?
YFC you did misrepresent Ski Ven’s words…..
He can be pretty sneaky.
Chimps are persons but babies 1 day before birth are not. Our world is very complicated.
Tommy’s lock up in a small bleak cage is certainly animal cruelty and can be dealt with at that level of the law.
Chimps do not need personhood. That is silly.
We all would have laughed at the suggestion of homosex marriage 20 years ago. Homosex allowed to adopt children? Never happen, right?
Who’s laughiung now?
If this lawsuit is successful, will those of us who support the theoretical concept of the basic equality of all human beings be forced then to undertake a groundbreaking lawsuit in order to snag for ourselves the equal status of legal chimpanzeehoood?
Probably not. I don’t supprort this lawsuit, but even if they prevail, the courts can quite clearly see through the vail of those of you who pretend that “the basic equality of all human beings”, pertains to ALL humans, as you pretend. Those of us who are human beings, who realize that you don’t support our “basic equality”, realize that you have no ground upon which to stand. We gay humans get his. Do you?
“…you have no ground upon which to stand.” Your issue is clearly with God’s law, YFC, not those who merely pass on the Truth of God’s law concerning homosexual sex.
Stop fixating on the messenger. A messengr can’t change the message – not when it comes to the Creator – anymore than you can despite your turning everything into an emotional outburst of being misunderstood or marginalized.
Faithful Catholics ‘get this’. And I’d ask if you do, but even if you did, you’d insist on keeping the blinders on.
“…Because, you know, if we let the gays marry each other, that would destroy Newt’s marriage(s).”
Now who is the Thread Jacker, YFC?!
keithp opened that door, not me:
keithp says:
December 6, 2013 at 2:56 pm
We all would have laughed at the suggestion of homosex marriage 20 years ago. Homosex allowed to adopt children? Never happen, right?
Who’s laughiung now?
I stand corrected, YFC. Thank you.
As to: “… Who’s laughiung now?”
I hope not you or anybody on this thread as the topics presented, especially the drill-down intended to overset marriage, nature and the Faith itself, is not funny. I’m not sure about you, but there is no vindictive motivation in my commenting here.
YFC asks, “Who is laughing now?”
“Nothing is more harmful to a man than his resistance to Grace.”
“So much do the will and its sin become wedded together that a soul will say, Let me alone. I made my bed and I will lie in it.” Venerable Fulton J. Sheen
Catherine I did not ask “Who is laughing now”. I was quoting keithp who first opened the gay issues door. Please get off my back. You use every possible moment to harrass me on this site. It would be a good thing if you stuck to the facts and refrained from insulting others.
YFC,
I also stand corrected!!! Forgive me for that one! I sincerely want you to realize though YFC that those words of Bishop Sheen are not insults. They are wise instructions that still apply to everyone, including you and me. Please YFC don’t you dare accuse me or anyone on this website of being on your back when it is YOU who is the individual who is enjoying the harassing of faithful Catholics as well as your strategic undermining of the authentic teachings of the Catholic Church. Your post reminded me of the speaker in our diocese who often gives same sex agenda driven explanations in different parishes using the topic of the Blessed Mother and the Blessed Sacrament. There is more than just same sex agendas taking place here. cont.
YFC……Our diocese is rife with professionally paid dissenters. Each time a group of faithful Catholics has been present to shut down the ill fated agenda. Other individuals also wants faithful Catholics to get off of their back, all while they insult God, undermine Church Teaching and mock the Pope and the Mother of God by saying that Mary was also being marginalized like some are today and that is why she had to hide out as an unwed mother or she would be stoned and criticized too. Well YFC, I am thankful that many faithful Catholics have remained like a clinging chimpanzee on the backs of dissenters by not allowing the free wheeling opportunity to distort the teachings of the Catholic Church like you do on CCD. One time a paid speaker also said, “I don’t know why this keeps happening to me every time I talk about Mary, everyone keeps getting on my back” This individual must not have read or does not believe the truth about Our Lady crushing the head of the serpent.
YFC, You have been treated charitably when considering the trouble making that you choose to strategically employ. That’s because we are employing the Fullness of Truth in believing that even a persecutor of Truth can have an authentic conversion. If you cannot stand the HEAT on this website then it is a good and sure sign that you will not enjoy being in hell. Ask for the grace of conversion while you still have time on this earth. Otherwise, you can always expect your agenda to be challenged on this website.
Bait and switch is the order of the day, Catherine. That is how dissenters seek to gain sympathy. Call out Catholics for being ‘mean’ and the confusion begins as most folks do not inherently seek to be mean. That said, the tactics employed by bait and switchers is precisely that- mean – for they play on the emotions and natural good will to silence those who would speak out against that which is obviously sinful.
Thank you for your clear sight and consistency of Truth in these matters. God bless you. And God bless you too, YFC. He already has been by giving you consistent opposition to your present confusion. What you choose to do with these blessings, however, is your choice to be sure.
Catherine I was completely prepared to forgive you about your mistake, but then you went on and compounded salt into the wound by continuing the general trend of your posts.
I am probably no less a sinner than any other person on CCD, and probably no more. It is just that you happen to have a particular obsession with what you regard as MY sin. Your obsession blinds you from seeing me as a whole person. It blinds you from giving me the benefit of the doubt about anything I post here, regardless of the topic or the content of my contributions.
So, I offer forgiveness, and prayers for your sight.
YFC, I daresay it could very well be your continued prayers for Catherine’s sight that keeps her thus focused. Just a thought.
Miracles do happen! Praise God from whom all blessings flow!
Don’t forget Gorillas and Orangutans. No reason to leave them out. And Baboons? Of course! I’d draw the line at Spider Monkeys, however. Just don’t ask me why– I don’t know.
There’s a lot of humor in some of these comments, but what is at stake isn’t elevating the status of animals. They are not trying to establish only personhood for a monkey, but also to demote humans to an equal status. It’s aim is at the heart of the pro-life movement.
Ted,
You got that RIGHT!
May God have mercy on an amoral Amerika!
Viva Cristo Rey!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher, Founding Director
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc.
I sure miss Rick Delano, Skai and the few more great debaters who kept people on their toes and challenged them to reason better…..this website should do what it takes to keep good debaters like them….especially since they are faithful…
I miss JLS, Rick Delano, The Truth Hurts, and R.R.
The Truth Hurts is Catherine. R.R. still posts. Did Dana leave or did she just change her name?
Dana hasn’t posted for a while…I think she left because of the attack on Catherine’s good name….it made a lot of people angry and I don’t blame them. I think Skai didn’t like the limit of 10 comments only or something like that, he tried commenting but some of his posts didn’t go through…well that is my guess, Rick left because he didn’t like how the editors didn’t allow true dialogue and even censored some of his true defense of the faith…..it sure came accross that way and he left because of something like that…Larry…well I don’t know, I think he was ill.. RR ….etc
Thanks for responding, Abeca. I miss Dana too. God bless all of the faithful who used to comment here regularly. We should be praying for them. I hope that JLS is okay.
Ski Ven JLS also used the name as Skai. Yes I do miss these wonderful persons, they had their own style and kept challenging people to think and reason within Faith boundaries. They knew how to respond each time very well. We have some new ones that are good too but different. I think JLS and Rick Delano also were very intelligent because they tapped into even historical thinking that many didn’t even knew about how deep the faith can go. We have a few new ones here but they do not challenge enough, I try but being anemic has me a little weak in conveying, all that knowledge and wisdom but me not well in conveying as good as I would like LOL….I know that sometimes it got heated but at least it was to defend the faith…I saw plenty of passion and some good humor too.
Yes they are always in my thoughts and prayers…….
One husband and wife tried to treat some chimpanzees as humans, and they lived to regret it. While they were giving a female chimp a birthday party in a cage where there was a male chimp, the male chimpanzee got angry at the husband for some reason. He tore him apart. The man lived but was horribly mutilated on both the upper and lower parts of his body. Wild animals are just that — wild animals and never will be anything else. Many people or their friends and relatives are killed or mutilated yearly by supposedly tame wild animals being kept as pets. Many states are trying to outlaw this and rightly so.
Wild animals are not human by any means, and if those who are bringing this lawsuit try to treat them so, they too may live to regret it or get mauled to death. Another woman was horribly mutilated when she tried to help her friend get her chimp back into another room in her house. One man lived in the wilds with lions, whom he claimed he had tamed, only to be mauled to death by one of them after several years. Not many people have stigmatas and are St. Francis of Assisi, and even he only dealt with one hungry wolf he fed in an area without much food for wild animals. He did not take him into his home but left him in the wilds, and he stayed away from packs of wolves.
Anne T you are correct…I heard of those stories too.
I am sorry that I only now read this article. There are two quotes in this article which get to the heart of why this law suit was filled.
1. “a COGNITIVELY complex AUTONOMOUS LEGAL PERSON with the fundamental LEGAL right not to be imprisoned.”
2. ____ “possess complex COGNITIVE abilities that are so strictly PROTECTED WHEN they’re FOUND in human beings,”.
The are suggesting that only certain persons have the legal right to be free! They are saying that a person who is not autonomous (i.e. independent or self-governing) is NOT a legal person! They are saying that a (human being) who does not possess COMPLEX cognitive abilities has no LEGAL right to be free!
Yikes! Is the “Nonhuman Rights Project” USING this bogus law suit in order to set a precedent for the future IMPRISONING of cognitively disabled people in our country! Isn’t this precisely what Nazi Germany did? As I said before, we are in a war of ideas. The only thing protecting us from absolute tyranny is the adherence to our Constitution. Obama promised us that he wants nothing less than to FUNDAMENTALLY TRANSFORM AMERICA! He can not do this on his own!
While the nation focuses on the disaster befalling our fellow citizens due to the dismantling of our health care system, Obama is feverishly working on appointing the most radical leftist individuals as judges, our courts have ever seen!