The following comes from a May 7 Crux Now article by Michael O’Loughlin:
The Catholic Church in Germany has relaxed so-called morality rules for employees, meaning employees who divorce and civilly remarry or who enter into a gay relationship will no longer lose their jobs at Catholic institutions.
The change came Tuesday, Reuters reports, with a little more than two-thirds of Germany’s 27 dioceses voting to go along with the change.
“The new rule opens the way for decisions that do justice to the situations people live in,” Alois Glueck, who leads a committee of lay Catholics, told Reuters.
Cardinal Rainer Woelki of Cologne said the Church isn’t changing its teaching, but responding to current realities.
“People who divorce and remarry are rarely fired,” he said to the KNA news agency. “The point is to limit the consequences of remarriage or a same-sex union to the most serious cases (that would) compromise the Church’s integrity and credibility.”
Germany allows churches to have their own labor practices even if they stand opposed to national law. Catholic bishops in Germany are widely seen as more liberal than their American counterparts.
During the October 2014 Synod on the Family, for example, two German Cardinals – Walter Kasper and Reinhard Marx – emerged as the chief proponents of measures that would permit a pathway for the divorced and civilly remarried to receive Communion.
In the United States, the use of morality clauses varies widely among parishes, dioceses, schools, universities, and nonprofits. There is little appetite among American bishops for any sort of national policy.
Several high-profile firings of openly gay employees at Catholic schools have led some American dioceses to adopt strict morality clauses.
The most recent example continues to play out in San Francisco, where hundreds protested Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone’s attempt to insert a new morality clause into teacher contracts there.
It’s not just schools: Conservatives are criticizing Catholic Relief Services for employing a gay vice president who is married. The employee is not Catholic and works in a financial capacity.
This is the beginning of the end. If morality is not enforced or encouraged, choas will reign. Can you image working for the FBI or the CIA and being totally hateful towards the United States? Can you picture a holocaust denier working for the Simon Weisenthal Center? Or a Moslem hater working for a mosque? Well, what is absurd is quickly becoming the norm in the Catholic Church. To allow people living in open and public sin to work for the Catholic Church is about as silly as it can get. I am sure that conservatives and traditionalists need not apply, as they would never be hired. The leaders in charge are not only extremely liberal and heretical, they probably are living scandalous lives as well. The Church in Germany, as well as in most all of Europe is dying, if not already dead.
The Vatican does not object, “Father Karl”. Many, in fact, believe that the Vatican applauds the Germans’ position here. What was it that Pope Francis was demanding, that everyone needs to be open to the “surprises” of the Holy Ghost??
Well, you are correct, the “beginning of the end”. But, of what? Christ promised that the Catholic Church will not be prevailed against, so the Church cannot be ending. What is shown, to the view of many, is that the Vatican (lead by Pope Francis) simply believes in a different “catholic” church than most practicing Catholics.
This type of outcome is not unexpected after there has been a coup or a purge. Take your pick of words, but that is what happened during and after Vatican II. Francis, and the Germans, are the logical conclusions of what was said and directed at and after the Council. The only thing that must be done now is to resist (paraphrasing Cardinal Burke).
Orthodox priests will be directed not to be so and that message will not be lost on seminarians. The difference now is the internet and the fact of an independent Catholic blog world. Vatican II would never have happened today.
This does not mean that horrible things can all be avoided. It does mean that everyone needs to take up arms (that is, the “pen” or “mouse”) and blast the apostasy of the Vatican and the Francis Administration. One still wonders why Benedict left us so suddenly?
Father Karl—– the first 8 sentences of your post were spot-on. bravo!!!! the German bishops appear to be living in a parallel universe. just my opinion, but your post would have been stronger if you stuck with just the first 8 sentences.
Caritas– Fr. Karl’s post is excellent! He concludes his post perfectly, with his final sentences! He knows what he’s talking about– you don’t!
It is so sad, Fr. Karl! Good post! Oh– that AWFUL Synod on the Family– and its AWFUL prelates!! Yes– Catholic Europe has been dead, for quite some time! The first thing Christ would say to anyone desiring to follow Him, is “Repent of your sins, leave your old life behind, and follow Me!” We have to take Christ on His own terms, not ours! A tragic ABUSE!! These evil, lazy, faithless prelates, are LYING! One CANNOT receive the Sacraments, if one is in a state of Mortal Sin!! Anti-Catholic (and IMMORAL!) employees, should NOT be allowed to work for the Church, as you rightfully stated! And LYING PRELATES, must NOT be allowed to say Mass, or offer the Sacraments– they should not even be allowed to receive the Sacraments, themselves– until they REPENT OF SIN!! They all should be REMOVED, and EXCOMMUNICATED!! But of course, the Vatican will not do that! So sad! Pope Francis does not care about Canon Law; he does not like “rules,” nor discipline, does he? Cheap Pope, and cheap, false Church– run on only silly, secular, “Happy Hippie Love-and-Hugs!””
Germany must be Wonderland, and as a consequence, the German bishops have to be the Mad Hatters. It is just as obtuse and confusing as Lewis Carroll’s work concerning a girl named Alice. To sum it up again as others have, it is diabolical disorientation at its height of power and influence.
The German bishops publish and distribute porn here:
https://www.weltbild.de/buecher. No one cares. The fact that they employ divorced and remarried people or homosexuals I’m sure wouldn’t even come up on their religious radar.
As the article notes, Carolyn Woo of CRS here in the U.S. hired and continues to employ a “gay-married” vice president. Again, very few people even care. Carolyn Wood even gets kudos from someone who post here, hailing her as a “faithful Catholic.” Down is up and up is down.
An excellent discussion on what is happening with many of the German Bishops is on ChurchMilitantTV ” Mic’d Up” called the “German Factions” is excellent.
https://www.churchmilitant.com/video/episode/micd-up-the-german-factions
It’s all about the money. They do not care about the Doctrine of the Faith.
How sad that it has become so common to refer to them as “so-called” morality clauses. The writers at Crux Now should know better. And as for the schools, I’m hoping that the German Cardinals take a long hard look at Canon 803 § 2, where it states “The instruction and education in a Catholic school must be grounded in the principles of Catholic doctrine; teachers are to be outstanding in correct doctrine and integrity of life.” It says outstanding. It does not say apathetic, or even well-intentioned.
One of the head writers at CRUX is John Allen. Prior to get his new job, he wrote for many years for the Condemned “National Catholic REPORTER”.
Don’t expect much from CRUX in the way of faithful reporting.
Thanks for reporting on Code of Canon Law:
” Canon 803 § 2, where it states “The instruction and education in a Catholic school must be grounded in the principles of Catholic doctrine; teachers are to be outstanding in correct doctrine and integrity of life. ”
The German church is in a de facto schism. How many others are going to join them in the march to perdition?
Edward Pentin has another excellent article regarding the German Bishops.
” WILL ROME HOLD GERMANY’S BISHOPS to ACCOUNT ? ”
https://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/will-rome-hold-germanys-bishops-to-account
Some examples of the evil actions of German Bishops include:
•In almost all the dioceses of Germany, sacramental absolution and Holy Communion are given to the divorced and remarried;
•The majority of bishops express the hope that civil second marriages be blessed in church;
•They hope that Holy Communion be given to non-Catholic spouses;
•They would like to see the “positive aspects” of homosexual relationships and same-sex unions recognized.
All these are direct violations of the “Doctrine of the Faith”
.
The two most important books in the Catholic Faith are:
1) a Catholic Bible;
2) the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, second edition” (of 1997; dark green cover in the USA) – which contains the Doctrine of the Catholic Faith in entirety.
Reading these will educate anyone to the TRUTH, and give them the ability to discern which Clergy are Faithful and which Clergy are wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Clearly many German Bishops (and some others) – violate the ‘Doctrine of the Faith’ – and are wolves in sheep’s clothing.
And by using Church definitions in CCC # 2089, they are Heretics and Schismatics.
Rome is not powerless.
The Pope by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered. (CCC 882).
Pray that the Pope uses his authority to correct, and if necessary discipline, high ranking Clergy who publically violate the ‘Doctrine of the Faith’, cause scandal, and lead souls to Hell.
The Roman Catholic Church in Germany ceased being “Catholic” decades ago, like all countries in Europe the churches and cathedrals are empty and for the most part “museums” yes that’s right museums. However Mosques are popping up all over the European landscape with endless Islamic hordes invading the continent prime example the boatloads coming to Italy from the North African coast. The German bishops are all heretics and the Church is dead in Germany. Pope Francis says nothing for the simple fact he agrees with the bishops of Germany, and now he is going to send priests all over the world to forgive people who have had abortions or performed them, this is a shocking time for The Church. Come October when the synod for the family commences there will be chaos and fragmentation never seen before. Pray to the Holy Ghost to give us a new Pope to save Holy Mother Church from this Argentine Marxist!! It must end!!!!!
It’s unfortunate that most German Bishops want to drag the rest of us down to Hell with them. :(
The Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Germany, Austria, Luxembourg, Czech Republic, France, all have one thing in common no Mass attendence. Before Vatican II all of the above countries Mass attendance stood at over 75% this is a proven fact, Vatican II utterly destroyed the Holy Roman Catholic Church in Europe and there is no going back to recover it. We have a Pope in Rome who still sings the praises of the New Springtime for the Church, while he destroyed The Fransiscans of The Immaculate, Cardinal Raymond Burke, Bishop Finn, and despises the Traditional Latin Mass. The Novus Ordo will die out in the years to come but it will take some time.
Janek, please don’t make stuff up regarding Vatican II. You make us Traditionalists sound stupid. And some of us resent it.
Have you forgotten the Protestant Reformation so soon? – Or do you want to blame the 1500’s on Vatican II as well?
Germany – 1520’s – home of the Protestant Reformation and Lutheranism.
And let’s not forget about John Calvin (Calvinism/Presbyterian), and John Wesley (Methodist), Henry 8th – Episcopalian, etc.
What is wrong with what “Janek” says? Nothing.
Vatican II has been a complete and unmitigated disaster for the Catholic Church. Not only the Council, but the implementation of the Council have brought little of value into the Church, and have caused its earthly institution to crumble.
You are correct, “Anonymous” that the Protestant revolt destroyed much of Catholic Europe. Vatican II, however, is much like it, intended to complete the job of that heresy, but this time from within the Church itself.
There is little to celebrate, except that one wants to celebrate “Springtime for Hitler” (hilarious song and dance from “The Producers”). The institutional church is dying, dead, expired, and it will not be revived in its present form. The current Pope, smiling and slap-happy, simply exists to mow down any thing that remains of the “Medieval” church that he and his pals despise.
In this regard, the Germans are simply stepping in tune to the Pope’s melody.
Anonymous,
Janek is not so far off the mark. Vatican II is the worst thing that has happened to the Church since the Protestant Reformation. Anyone with two eyes can see that, full stop. Our present Pope seems to support it and even Fidel Castro is so enamored of him that he says that he may return to the Church. If he(Francis) so pleases a criminal like Fidel, then we should be very much afraid. We Conservatives and Traditionalists may have to return to the Catacombs.
How do you reconcile the following regarding VII documents, Anonymous:
https://www.onepeterfive.com/the-greatest-commandment-did-a-council-and-two-popes-teach-error/
You may not be interested in looking critically at issues, but others must. They have duties they take seriously.
Glad you found a place to talk over the things of interest to you. God bless you.
….CCD is a great place to talk over critical issues/news regarding Catholics and Society, and from a Catholic POV. Thank you CCD for your continued welcome to all. That said, 1PeterFive is growing, too. Touching on those critical subjects that we explore here.
True and uncensored Catholic discussion. What a joy!
God bless you, too, different Anony.
Bless you, Janek! The Catholic Faithful, and their children, have received very little or no decent instruction, on correct practice of our Church’s Faith and Morals– since the Vatican II Council! Also, the Fathers of Vatican II, destroyed our daily, traditional way, of practice of our Faith! And they insist on utter CHAOS– with no sensible replacement, of what they destroyed! And no discipline, no NOTHING!! Europeans could again become good, obedient Catholics– if they were correctly taught, and given a DECENT CHURCH– NOT A CRAZY CHURCH!! Trying to struggle all alone, to be a good Catholic — in a crazy Church! — is not right! Christ gave us the Church, before He died, to correctly help us, to teach us, to sanctify us in her Sacraments, and to guide our footsteps to Heaven! Christ left His sacred work on earth, in the direction and care of St. Peter, and all the Apostles, and all His future priests and bishops– and it is a big responsibility! Well– all our current “bad” Church leaders, will someday be called to answer to God, for their horrific failures of responsibility!
The German “Church” and many of its priests and leaders don’t hold a position particularly different from Card. Kasper—that the miracles of Christ in the Gospel are fables—who, after all, Card. Kasper has authored 3 books on the subject taking this position. Schillebeeckx’s influence on them (his book “Jesus”, translated in the 1980’s) has had its effect on them—800 pages of a noble teacher named Jesus who was essentially not divine.
Again, I am reminded of Card. Mario Luigi Ciappi’s now-famous observation—Card. Ciappi being the official theologian to 5 popes, from P Pius XII onward, and who actually viewed the Fatima 3rd secret—“…It is foretold, among other things, that the great apostasy in the Church will begin at the top.” (Personal Letter to Austrian seminary teacher, Dr J. Baumgartner, 2000)
I know that the late Fr. Nicolas Gruner was viewed as a crackpot in some parts, but having heard him speak personally, I do not know many people in my life who had a more compelling presence and message. In his last letter before his sudden passing April 29th (2015), he spoke of a personal interview he had with the famous “Pope’s own Exorcist”, Fr. Gabriel Amorth: Fr. Amorth chilled him with a solemn assertion that “…Unless the Consecration of Russia is performed properly before the end of October, the culmination of the Chastisement will begin not long thereafter.
Janek, of course you are right, notwithstanding the mysterious “us-traditionalists anonymous types that now come forward”. A brief summary of the facts in 250 words or less:
Even adjusting for immigration, the US Catholic Church has lost 14 million Catholics since 2000 (Cath. World Report, April 2015 edition). In Kasper’s and Marx’s Germany, the Catholic population (self-reported) is down to 31% of the population, and only 12% of them go to Church regularly (down from about 22% attendance levels in 1990—another fruit of Vatican II, certainly. The Cardinal Primate (Jan Eijk) of The Netherlands acknowledges that now Catholics number about 16% of the population (down from 40% in 1970, and over 50% after WWII) and he expects it to fall to about 10% in 2020 (12/3/2013 Reuters report). Latin-American Catholics, esp. 1st and 2nd generation, are leaving the Church in the US in record numbers according to a 2014 Pew survey. More fruits of Vatican II.
Kenneth C. Jones, in his now-landmark report, now a book, “Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church since Vatican II” (now a softcover book: you can all buy it and read it for yourself!) shows an unmistakable and precipitous collapse in the institutional and numerical membership of the Church—-exactly and specifically since 1965. That is when the bomb went off.
So, where do we go from here, Holy Father, close advisers Kasper and Danneels, etc ?
The fortune telling fallacy.
You don’t know what would have happened if there had been no Vatican II. The number could be higher, lower or the same.
There is no way to tell.
In the Eastern Orthodox Churches in the US, only 28% attend weekly service.
I don’t think they had a Vatican II.
As a general rule I don’t respond to Anonymous posters: anyone who wont even give themselves an identifiable screen name speaks for their post ergo.
So, Cal Catholic Readers, please note we now have the appearance of the “You-don’t-know-what-would-have-happened-if-there-had-been-no-Vatican-II” argument. This is rhw gold standard example of intellectual bankruptcy today: the argument for Vatican II, the New Mass, “aggiornamiento” (which nowhere appears in Vatican II’s documents—the Anonymous gang doesn’t know that), the New Evangelization (Why? The old one was working fine.), “opening the windows and letting the sunshine in” (P. John XXIII) was the growth and renewal that the Catholic Church would experience. If, faced with the results of a disaster (“Satan’s smoke entering even unto the sanctuary”, P. Paul VI Address to the Lombard College Dec 7, 1968), then we know it was a Council at least the false interpretations of which are evil.
What were the results of Trent? Overwhelming growth, re-unification of belief, and re-vitalization of mission. We have a standard to measure a true thing and a false thing (note, I mention: the ambiguous interpretations of V2: it can be read, mostly, in an orthodox way, or in a Kung-Schillebeecx-Congar “Spirit of V2”-way.
But the salient point is this: if we were to have experienced catastrophe, there was absolutely no reason to change. We should have instead remained faithful to Christ’s Tradition.
Phoenix- Get off your anti-Catholic Church kick. Most of us are sick of it.
Your personal opinions carry no weight.
You do not adhere to Church teaching, and therefore you are a heretic and schismatic.
As others have said – any Pope can change the rubrics of either Mass when/if he deems appropriate.
And the EF (TLM / Latin) Mass has been changed many times since the Apostles – as well as the clothing/vestments.
End of Subject.
Excuse me, but if Trent was was so successful, where did all the Protestants come from?
Another sign of intellectual bankruptcy—an inability to answer the discussion matter posed, that ” “You-don’t-know-what-would-have-happened-if-there-had-been-no-Vatican-II” argument is to resort to the Intellectually Bankrupt’s New Mass Responsorial Psalm: Today’s Response is (all together now): “Herrretic, Schismaaatic, Anti-Caaatholic” (Quack-quack!”) This is the same quality of discussion that gave Duns Scotus the “Dunce Cap”—when he was defending the Immaculate Conception of the B. Virgin Mary.
Now back to the facts for those who want to think about the issues.
In point of fact, if there was to be precipitous decline in the Church anyway, there was no reason to change—either the ancient liturgy, its essential content, or the Church as the source of salvation, etc: But Vatican II, Bugnini’s Consilium, the New Mass, the New Evangelization all PROMISED great “fruits of Vatican II”, a “New Pentecost in the Church” (Card. Suenens), a “new Springtime in the Church”. And what we got was, spiritually speaking, nuclear winter.
Today in fact, the most recent Pew Survey (conducted in the latter half of 2014) shows that the Catholic Church in the US has lost another 3 million people since 2007 (Crux, May 12, 2015). 14 million gone since year 2000 (CWR, April, 2015). The Intellectually Bankrupt want us to stop talking about it. “Make him stop, make him STOP!”
As for the issue of Trent’s success, no reputable historian, Catholic or otherwise, claims other than that the Catholic Counter-Reformation was an enormous success (cf. Warren Carroll, “The Council Fulfilled”, chapter in “The Cleaving of Christendom,” Vol 4 “THe History of Christendom”).
BUT…if all the decline in church attendance is a fruit of the Vatican II council then why aren’t all the people who left the Church to follow Martin Luther et al a fruit of the the Council of Trent?
Church attendance was already rapidly declining in Europe by the 1960s. I’m fairly certain VII was an attempt to recalaim European Christianity.
THe decline will continue so long as the Catholic Church denies women equal access to ministry in the Church, pretends that there is a masculinity crisis causing Church decline, and fails to recognize love wherever and whenever it encounters it.
The Church recognizes love – true love – which is why She doesn’t endorse the disordered understanding of how to express that “love”. Our Lord sacrificed His flesh so that we could obtain eternal life and yet you would have Catholics endorse indulging the flesh to do what?
Keep numbers up?
That is why your proposals, while perhaps the means to facilitate a flash spike, although more like a passing that sounds nice, would only fast forward the death sentence for Christianity. There is nothing masculine in cowardly capitulation. Apostasy by any other name would smell as rank, YFC.
But the Church is called to imitate Her spouse. Sold out by those who should defend Her, scourged and at crucified. But when She is lifted up, She will draw souls to Her.
The Church is, after all, The Body of Christ, all her faithful gathered in unity and charity. If the Church finds itself dismembered, perhaps it ought to question whether or not it has indeed recognized love, as you claim she does.
Then again, Ann Malley, you are not united to Christ’s Church yourself. You have yourself become a follower of a schismatic cult and you promote schism with every post. You do not promote unity within the Church. You have sold her out yourself, and you encourage others to do the same.
YFC – ” The Church is, after all, the Body of Christ, all her faithful gathered in unity and charity”.
Those who choose to live a lifestyle of Mortal Sin (as defined by Jesus and His Church) are NOT FAITHFUL.
We can have no UNITY with Mortal Sin.
Mortal Sin must never be tolerated.
CHARITY demands that we love our neighbor, which means that we want him or her to get to Heaven – not rot in Hell for their mortal sins of commission and omission.
JESUS said “MANY will NOT be SAVED”.
Only “FEW will be SAVED”
Mt 7:13-14 and Lk 13: 23-30.
Honesty is best, YFC. That is why your attempt to overstep yourself and claim schism where none exists while deriding Church teaching only to claim being Catholic is transparent, false advertisement. You are a dissenting Catholic who actively seeks to subvert the Truth.
There is no false claim of the Church being loving, YFC. For the unity of the Church is the unity of belief in Truth – not the unity of dissent that you propose. But that is obviously why you continue the false advertisement.
For the unity of the Church is the unity of belief in Truth – no. That is contrary to the Tradition of the Church.
Unity is first and foremost visible unity. To claim unity of “belief” is a gnostic view of unity, and it is one rejected by history and dogma. You’ve tried that one before, and we keep reminding you that you are a gnostic heretic when you write those kinds of things.
A visible gathering of spoken disunity is not true unity, YFC. Although again, I can see why you would keep attempting to hammer that one home and call it Catholic.
Keep up that unity with the German Bishop’s Conference agenda. We Catholics say no.
The Church is the Church when it is united visibly and in obedience to the Roman Pontiff. Ordaining your own bishops in direct disobedience to direct orders of the Pope, as was done with SSPX, is the dictionary definition of not keeping unity with the Catholic Church. And that schismatic act continues today, as witnessed by the building of huge SSPX seminaries, The ordinations they prepare their candidates for are forbidden by Rome, yet the construction of the seminary continues unabated. The construction of schismatic seminaries amounts to the destruction of the Visible Church of Christ.
YFC, you can attempt to divert the thread all you’d like.
That said, the building of “huge” seminaries for TLM candidates testifies to the fecundity of Catholic tradition. (FSSP seminaries draw as well. Blessed be God!) This is why you are so adamant an opponent for consistency and tradition in belief/practice.
As I said, we can call ourselves Catholic and all flock to the same buildings, but when the teaching/belief diverges from the truth of what the Church actually teaches, there is no unity.
You may, however, want to write Cardinal Poli in Buenos Aires and scold him. For his having admitted in writing that the Society is part of the Catholic Church, while knowing full well that one of the Societies many seminaries is right there in his city, is surely something that would cause you alarm. Even if the Cardinal’s act was done to alleviate visa issues, his action still stands in opposition to your absurd position.
The Society SSPX and the priests to be ordained at the new seminary exercise no legitimate ministry within the Church. It’s as simple as that.
Ann Malley, you are in grave error.
The distinctive marks of the Church are also to be made known to the faithful, that thus they may be enabled to estimate the extent of the blessing conferred by God on those who have had the happiness to be born and educated within her pale.
“One’
The first mark of the true Church is described in the Nicene Creed, and consists in unity: My dove is one, my beautiful one is one. So vast a multitude, scattered far and wide, is called one for the reasons mentioned by St. Paul in his Epistle to the Ephesians: One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
Unity In Government
The Church has but one ruler and one governor, the invisible one, Christ, whom the eternal Father hath made head over all the Church, which is his body; the visible one, the Pope, who, as legitimate successor of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, fills the Apostolic chair.
It is the unanimous teaching of the Fathers that this visible head is necessary to establish and preserve unity in the Church. This St. Jerome clearly perceived and as clearly expressed when, in his work against Jovinian, he wrote: One is elected that, by the appointment of a head, all occasion of schism may be removed. In his letter to Pope Damasus the same holy Doctor writes: Away with envy, let the ambition of Roman grandeur cease! I speak to the successor of the fisherman, and to the disciple of the cross.
The same doctrine was long before established by Saints Irenaeus and Cyprian. The latter, speaking of the unity of the Church observes: The Lord said to Peter, I say to thee, Peter! thou art Peter: and upon this rock I will build my Church. He builds His Church on one. And although after His Resurrection He gave equal power to all His Apostles, saying: As the Father hath sent me, I also send you, receive ye the Holy Ghost; yet to make unity more manifest, He decided by His own authority that it should be derived from one alone, etc.
Again, Optatus of Milevi says: You cannot be excused on the score of ignorance, knowing as you do that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was first conferred on Peter, who occupied it as head of the Apostles; in order that in that one chair the unity of the Church might be preserved by all, and that the other Apostles might not claim each a chair for himself; so that now he who erects another in opposition to this single chair is a schismatic and a prevaricator.
Later on St. Basil wrote: Peter is made the foundation, because he says: Thou art Christ, the Son of the Living God; and hears in reply that he is a rock.
Lastly, St. Ambrose says: Because he alone of all of them professed (Christ) he was placed above all.
Should anyone object that the Church is content with one Head and one Spouse, Jesus Christ, and requires no other, the answer is obvious. For as we deem Christ not only the author of all the Sacraments, but also their invisible minister He it is who baptises, He it is who absolves, although men are appointed by Him the external ministers of the Sacraments so has He placed over His Church, which He governs by His invisible Spirit, a man to be His vicar and the minister of His power. A visible Church requires a visible head; therefore the Saviour appointed Peter head and pastor of all the faithful, when He committed to his care the feeding of all His sheep, in such ample terms that He willed the very same power of ruling and governing the entire Church to descend to Peter’s successors.
Unity In Spirit, Hope And Faith
Moreover, the Apostle, writing to the Corinthians, tells them that there is but one and the same Spirit who imparts grace to the faithful, as the soul communicates life to the members of the body. Exhorting the Ephesians to preserve this unity, he says: Be careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace; one body and one Spirit.
….and the increasingly heterodox being ordained, promoted,and left uncorrected in Germany do have an “official” ministry in the Church.
It is as simple as that. And that, friend, is the problem at hand.
In the meantime, traditional groups flourish. Thanks be to God.
Yfc, your post reminded me of a medieval painting..perhaps you’ve seen it? …of priests of an order making their way up a stairway into heaven . Some are slipping off, some clinging to the edge, many have fallen into the abyss. I think of Jesus as our building block on which our stairway is built. Each step is composed of what we’ve learned and which if solid and true will support us all the way up on the long and often treacherous journey to the top. When I became a Catholic I had to accept ALL Catholic teachings, not just the ones I liked and so my steps were strengthened (thank you so much all ye saints, martyrs and teachers of Church doctrine , the prophets and faithful of the Old Testament) If we take out some of those steps, or build them of our own wishes, they’re going to crumble yfc. We’re going to fall into the abyss. No pleasure is worth that. If your right hand leads you to sin, cut it off, metaphorically speaking. With sharia law a such growing menace one can’t be too careful.
PS I didn’t mean to imply that my own steps are not in much need of repair and full of weak treads!
Dana I didn’t take your post to say that your steps are not in need of repair, so no worries on the PS.
I too am a convert to catholicism. I too had to pledge all that the Church holds to be true, to the limits of my own ability to comprehend them.(Incidentally, I’ve always joked that the Church requires no such pledge from its members who joined in infancy!).
What we did not pledge was that if at some point we stopped believing what the Church believed, that we could go off on our own, ordain our own bishops and priests, and claim a Lutheran-esque fidelity to a “unity of faith”, as Ann Malley holds, a secret gnostic faith that is known to her alone, from which the visible Church has strayed. Our faith is not some interior posit of knowledge known only to a secret sect that, when pressed, obfuscates the issues they have with the Bishop of Rome.
….what you pledged, I hope, was to keep the faith, Anonymous. Perhaps it is because you are a convert that you do not understand the necessity to stand for the Faith when heterodoxy/error rears its head. (Although other converts are certainly not similarly effected.) This is,however, not the first time of crisis within the Church. There was a point where Holy Mother Church had 3 claimants to the papacy.
So relax and attempt to stick to the Faith. That is what many are doing right now, Anonymous, not “just” Ann Malley. That is what Catholics do in times of crisis. The rising flood just hasn’t reached your welcome mat yet. Give thanks for that. But try not to decry others in lifeboats.
You may yet have to climb aboard one. God bless. And happy learning…..and hopefully, growing! Try to recall that those who actually believe the Faith should stick together considering the pirate crew growing ever bolder in Germany. But not only Germany.
Sorry, the anonymous at 3:38 PM was me.
There is no heterodoxy in Vatican II. None. But even if there were, where is it written that if you believe that there is heterodoxy, that you then have permission to go off and form your own sect and ordain your own bishops and construct your own seminaries? How in any meaningful way is SSPX different than Lutherans and Anglicans ordaining their own priests and bishops? The early followers of Luther believed that Rome was heterodox, and when pushed out of the Church, formualted their own catechisms and built their own seminaries. That is EXACTLY what SSPX is doing.
….again, heterodoxy is being fomented, trained, ordained and foisted upon the Catholic people. That’s the problem, YFC. I understand your drive to divert.
But the rise of the German Bishop’s Conference and the absurdity of the October synods is something even you cannot obfuscate.
And you may want to step lightly in your condemnation of Luther and what he did for new Church wouldn’t like it, YFC. Lest we forget the supposedly “new phenomenon” that supposedly doesn’t fall under the heading of heresy anymore.
Thank you again, however, for showing your true colors. Always appreciated.
Your words are a message of despair, “Your Fellow Catholic”.
Women can never become priests and will never become priests.
You say things like this to cause confusion and to try to make Catholics lose heart in their battle for holiness.
No, there are priests aplenty in Traditional orders. What will happen is that N.O.-based orders and the Church, generally, will decline, while Tradition will supplant the present order. Let those who want to leave, go. They can return to the True Faith, but Catholicism cannot be redrawn to accommodate pagans.
YFC: I’m fairly certain VII was an attempt to recalaim European Christianity. and it failed completely
“THe decline will continue so long as the Catholic Church denies women equal access to ministry in the Church, pretends that there is a masculinity crisis causing Church decline, and fails to recognize love wherever and whenever it encounters it.”
YFC demands the complete homofication of the Church which will includes priestesses of course..As gay man YFC you have no understanding of authentic masculinity you are incapable of knowing what it means, so you are then unable to recognize when it is not present, and there is a masculinity crisis in the Church. Once the gays purged from the clergy it will be resolved. “fails to recognize love wherever and whenever it encounters it.” Hmmm taken to your logical conclusion all illicit relationships must be recognized so long as the parties involved claim to love each other. Folks see how liberal arguments are shredded when basic logic and reason is applied… YFC’s side will lose in the end
YFC – why do you deny the DOCTRINE of the FAITH ?
CCC: “1577 Only a baptized man (vir) validly receives sacred ordination.
The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry.
The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ’s return.
The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself.
For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.”
” “ The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved … and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority,
is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine,
attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. ” – Pope John Paul II, CCC pg 5.
MIKE, Christ chose only MARRIED men. Where does that fact see the light of day in CCC 1577?
…married men, with the exception of John, who left their wives behind, YFC. The left the flesh behind. Where does that see the light of day in your reality? It doesn’t for you keep pushing for the flesh at every turn – as if “grace” were insufficient or, perhaps, just another of the aspects of the Gospel that +Kasper regularly attempts to dismantle for the purpose of “outreach”.
There are a great many German saints, including 20th century saints– on our liturgical calendar! We also have had a recent German Pope, Benedict XVI, with many excellent books, to provide religious inspiration, to his fellow German Catholics! Too bad no one looks to any of them, as Catholic Role Models! Additionally– why is the Blessed Mother neglected? Her Rosary is a powerful, ancient means of spiritual warfare, against sin, and to bring many graces to devout Catholics– including PURITY!!
…and Pope Francis continues to remain silent about the sinfulness of homosexual acts.
This is the start of the slippery sloop to hell. Didn’t the Germans learn anything from their past history??? And is Pope Francis condoning this? Is this Jesuit
morality? Very, very sad. What next? Will the German Bishops next approve of abortion? Once the camel gets his nose under the tent, it is not too long before he is in all the way.
What do you expect from Pope Francis….HE’S A JESUIT!!!!!!!
Wow! The Bible now stands a chance to become the biggest joke book in history.
Well said Amy!!!
‘THe decline will continue so long as the Catholic Church denies women equal access to ministry in the Church’
If that was the case, the episcopals. luterans, Anglicans, Methodist and others will be triving and growing. The fact of the matter is that those communities have surrender to the DICTATORSHIP of RELATIVISM and are DYING.
The quote under the picture is from the Huffington Post. Does anyone really believe anything from the Huffington Post, which usually twist things beyond recognition. I do not.
So, YFC hates the SSPX! What is their origin, and what is their history? Does YFC know? And what about YFC’s favorite post-Vatican II seminaries– are many of them also “bad,” with some faithless, anti-orthodox, (or, “anti-Catholic!”) liberal, “heretical/schismatic ” seminarians and teachers– with possibly, some liberal, “heretical/schismatic” post-Vatican II bishops ordaining these chosen men to serve, in their possibly anti-orthodox (or, “anti-Catholic!”) “heretical/ schismatic” dioceses? Which is worse, which are more faithless, YFC?? The SSPX, whom you despise– or, our regular, post-Vatican II seminaries, teachers, and bishops—- “in union with Rome,” politically, yes!– but not always “in union with the true, orthodox Church!” The Vatican, by the way– does NOT “hate” the SSPX, nor view the SSPX as “heretical /schismatic!” Good idea, to do extensive research, on this topic! You may be terribly SHOCKED!!
Of course– Your Fellow “Catholic,” and Abeca “Christian,” and many other “Faithful Fellow Catholics,” would far prefer the German bishops and their chosen priests– to the European SSPX bishops and their chosen priests! Of course!! Because they are also politically favored by Pope Francis– and “IN UNION WITH ROME!!” Just wait ’till the Synod on the Family in October! Oh, boy! What a SPLENDID Church!!
..”Any pope can change the rubrics of either Mass when and if he deems it appropriate.”
Well, first of all, rubrics do not attain to the substantial content of the Mass: the Pope is Vicar of Christ, not Christ. A vicar must act to preserve the tradition received from Christ from defectability, and “rubrics and vestments” are accidents, not substantial to the issue. However, potentially changing something from what it is, into something it is not, is not within the papal authority. If it is changing the substantial structure of the Mass and replacing the Roman Canon with alternate and possibly defective Eucharistic prayers and Words of Institution (of course in the vernacular: yet a vernacular Canon and orations were never the desire of the Council Fathers, according to Council expert Klaus Gamber anyway. Also Sacro. Concilium stated that the Mass normatively should remain in Latin: another breached directive of Vatican II) , that diverge further and further from the Mass of Christ, we have a problem.
And with the programmed ad libitum freedoms granted within the New Mass, we certainly have a problem (Have you seen the “Country Western Messe” in Germany—messe is German for Mass before you all freak out, in Card. Schornborn’s archdiocese near Vienna on YouTube? That is an interesting example.).
Now some cite (correctly) Mediator Dei (1947) in which Pius XII reserved the right once again to the Holy See regarding the rites of the Church.
Yes, of course: In Mediator Dei, Pius XII pronounces that only the Holy See has the authority to change the Mass (n 49, 58): but he actually was pronouncing this in criticism of the liturgical experimentation that was going on in post WW2 Europe, even in 1947 (the year of Mediator Dei).
Pius XII also corrects the false notion that priesthood and sacrifice comes from the people in the congregation (n. 40); he most of all rejects “novel liturgical practices” and “some persons who are bent on the restoration of ancient rites indiscriminately” (61). Pius XII devotes important focus to the Mass as “expiation, propitiation, and reconciliation” (73), a “daily sacrifice” not just for the living but for the dead. He calls it a “daily immolation” of Christ (79), he condemns a “priesthood of all the baptized”, “concelebration” by the congregation with the priest, and upholds private Masses (83, 95-96). Since when have you heard that of late? Most importantly of all, he states:
“…In order to avoid giving rise to a dangerous error, we define the exact meaning of the word “offer.” The unbloody immolation at the words of consecration, when Christ is made present upon the altar in the state of a victim, is performed by the priest and by him alone, as the representative of Christ.
Steve, I’ve got to say, the scope and breadth of your knowledge is breathtaking. God gave you many gifts and like Ann and so many others, I appreciate your taking the time to explain things to us. I’m on the sidelines in the debate as I believe I’m where I’m supposed to be, but I am very sympathetic to what you’re saying and I will never understand the sheer malice your views draw forth from those who fear for their own faith and are threatened in the extreme. You would think they would feel that way about satanists, aethists, secularists, etc. wouldn’t you? Me thinks they protest too much. It’s like the reaction against Bishop Finn…you never hear them criticizing Cd. Marx, for example.
Thank you, Dana, for expressing the reality that nobody is attempting to gain followers here, merely sharing the truths about our Catholic Faith and history. God works where He wills and “all things work toward the good” for those who love God.
Maligning others with a false narrative out of fear is never okay. Some folks, however, have been conditioned to believe that the desired ends justify the means – to include lying, obfuscating, and/or misinterpreting on purpose and outright calumniating.
There are traditional action groups, however, that do precisely this while advertising that the “spin” stops with them. They shame other solid Catholics with a different approach -while trashing Bishops, Cardinals, etc- all-the-while demanding that they be understood in their position of not speaking openly about the Pope.
And yet, amid this demand for “proof” of understanding them, they ban any/all posts at their so-called forums which disagree with their stated position and, more to the point, any posts which call them out for castigating other faithful Catholics without any attempt on their part to entertain/understand the necessity to speak out publicly. They ask/demand for the understanding they refuse to give – setting a closed and dangerous precedent for elevating themselves to being an authority.
to Dana cont:
Many posters here have been conditioned and shamed by this group to believe that staying quiet is proof of fidelity. And speaking out is a sure sign of being unfaithful and/or against the Church. They won’t even allow links to 1PeterFive on their website….or the voices of Fr. Clovis who advocates the undesired necessity to speak out.)
That being said, I’m glad you are where you are. It’s about keeping the Faith, at least to me, not hammering folks in an attempt to assert superiority. That is also why I LOVE CCD and other OPEN forums that do not seek to shame and build market share for “their” position while overreaching to embed the false notion of schism, heresy, reactionary where there is none.
That is fear mongering, much like asserting to even those who post on their forum the false claim that speaking out equals unfaithfulness. (IOW: These other entities have, in an attempt to grow “their” apostolate, ttweaked with consciences to the point of OCD, making folks shut down their brain and Catholic sense because they do not want to be called unfaithful or be branded as guilty of causing scandal as continually and falsely promoted at this “no-spin” zone.
That last is rather playing Pope, in my view, not protecting him. It is also highly divisive…..but a large part of why you are witnessing this hard-line spiritual blindness. Inculcated fear.
….so the “lies and falsehoods that are trapped and exposed” as per this other traditional group’s assertion is,for some very odd and curious reason, stubbornly opposed to exposing the lies and falsehoods they level at fellow Catholics whom they erroneously brand as being in schism and/or heretics for calling VII documents into rightful question and for holding out in the hopes the the Holy Father, who is the “visible” head of the Church on earth, will do what he is supposed to do in speaking clearly to uphold/defend Church teaching.
And while this group does do untold good in exposing the sins of our fathers – to include wayward bishops, cardinals, and priests – their assertion that others who look to the Holy Father and beg questions or even clarity – are somehow breaking the 4th commandment, they undermine true unity. And true charity. (They also erroneously apply the 4th commandment to somehow not encompassing the lawful authority and fatherly nature of the very prelates they continually expose.)
That is one reason why you witness such knee-jerk true “reactionary” posting of anything that comes close to the fullness of what could very well be said is merely a matter of public record. These poor folks have been bred to fear. Bred to believe that they MUST follow this mindset or risk scandalizing others and/or being labeled unfaithful.
Another great reason for CCD, 1PeterFive, and any Catholic forum which is truly open to mature, honest Catholic discussion with a mind toward promoting the actual Faith.
“The unbloody immolation at the words of consecration, when Christ is made present upon the altar in the state of a victim, is performed by the priest and by him alone, as the representative of Christ.”
Thank you, Steve Phoenix, for this substantive dose of reality. Talk of “celebrating Eucharist” being primarily the “experience of communal prayer” on other blogs has left me rather nauseated.
God bless you for researching, using and educating as to proper terminology and hence proper form!
Excellent post, Steve Phoenix! Bravo!!
As for the popes, recent or otherwise “changing” (implicitly: substantially) the essential Mass and rites of the Church, this is manifestly untrue.
Pro-New Mass liturgist Joseph Jungmann: “Some real changes since the 16th century in the rubrics and in the text of the Missal of Pius V have resulted in certain instances from papal orders.… For the rest, excepting the increase in saints’ feasts, very little was done to affect the arrangement of the Mass.” –his book, “The Mass of the Roman Rite”
To preserve the “organic development” (P. BXVI) of the Mass, offices and prayers were added, but substantial content and structure was never changed in the Mass—as GIRM’s most recent edition confirms (cf. n 7: the present Traditional Roman Mass is essentially the same in form and structure at least as that of P. Innocent III (d. 1216)].
However, note that Francisco Suarez stated that a pope could not overturn the rites of the Church founded on apostolic tradition in their essential substance.
Or consider what Pope S Pius X held: “It is well known that to the Church there belongs no right whatsoever to innovate anything touching on the substance of the sacraments” (1910, Ex quo nono)
Nothing in the substance of the sacraments was changed. Please tell the truth.
….try setting the precedence for being truthful, YFC. Your indictment of the facts regarding the Faith and the history of Holy Mother Church is a joke considering you advocate for the dismantling of Catholic faith and morals.
Facts are facts, Ann Malley, even if you find the messenger distasteful.
Yes, YFC, facts are distasteful to you. That is why you continually attempt to dissemble by implying the mere sharing of what is a matter of public record is lying.
Be precise in your terms, YFC, and always try to apply the same rigor to yourself. Perhaps then your attempt at playing messenger won’t be so laughable.