The following comes from a June 18 story in Crisis Magazine.
A new generation of celebrants is moving past the politicized agendas of the past toward embracing the true spirit of the liturgy. Maybe it hasn’t happened in your parish but the trend is clear: better music, better vestments, better postures and rubrics.
And yet, we all know that things are not what they should be…. I here list the top five ways in which the presentation of the liturgy can ruin the liturgical experience.
1. Improvisation of the Liturgical Texts
The problem of celebrants who make up their own words on the spot, in hopes of making the liturgy more chatty and familiar, continues to be a serious annoyance. It is obviously illicit to do so. Celebrants are permitted to break to explain parts of the Mass or provide other special instructions. But they are not permitted to replace liturgical texts with something that they dreamed up on the spot.
….The older Missal translation dating from 1970 and onward was so casual, chatty, and plain that it encouraged the priest to enter into this world of casual communication. The formality just wasn’t there to encourage a more sober, careful, and accurate presentation. Also, many improvisers just had a sense that the text needed fixing of some sort….
2. Politicized and Newsy Prayer of the Faithful
The General Instruction of the Roman Missal says of the prayer of the faithful: “The intentions announced should be sober, be composed with a wise liberty and in few words, and they should be expressive of the prayer of the entire community.”
“Wise liberty” seems to be in short supply however. Sometimes these prayers seem like last month’s newspaper, calling to mind events that left the 48-hour news cycle long ago….
3. Extended and Chatty Sign of the Peace
The rite of peace has a long tradition in the Roman Rite dating to the earliest centuries. It was mostly restricted to the clergy….
The Missal plainly says that the extension to the congregation is optional. The requirement of the rite is fulfilled in the sanctuary alone. Therefore, if there is an invitation to have the people offer a sign of peace, it should be short. The General Instruction says: “it is appropriate that each person, in a sober manner, offer the sign of peace only to those who are nearest….”
4. Replacing Sung Propers with Something Else
Since the earliest centuries, the liturgy assigned particular scriptural texts to particular liturgical days. This happens at the entrance, the music between readings, the offertory, and the communion. The instructions are very clear: the assigned chant is to be sung. If something else was sung, the words were still said by the priest. And so it was in most countries from the 7th century until quite recently.
Today, the Mass propers are mostly replaced by something else, usually a hymn with words made up by some lyricist. Quite often the results have nothing to do with the liturgy at all. It’s actually remarkable when you think about it. Choirs busy themselves with replacing crucial parts of the liturgy. They just drop them completely. Mostly they do this with no awareness of what they are doing….
5. Percussion
In the first millennium, instruments were not part of the sung Mass, but as time went on, the organ was gradually admitted. By the 17th and 18th centuries, whole orchestras were used in certain locations. Even today you can find places where orchestral Masses are used that include tympani and other percussion instruments.
Most likely, that is not the context in which percussion instruments are used in your parish.
Today we hear conga drums, trap sets, bongos, and other drums played not in the style of Monteverdi processions, or Masses by Haydn or Mozart. Instead we hear them just as we would hear them in a bar or dance hall….
To read the entire article, click here.
There are only two legitimate forms of the Mass.
Bishops and Priests do NOT have the authority to change the rubrics of the Mass(Being ‘creative’ is not permitted.)
The ORDINARY Form of the Mass must adhere to the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM).
The EXTRAORDINARY Form of the Mass (Latin) must adhere to the 1962 Missal.
GIRM is posted on the Vatican and USCCB web sites.
The book itself is available on Amazon. (Be sure to get the latest version, since older versions are also on Amazon.)
You can get a copy for yourself, and for your Priest.
If you want a Holy Mass, report all abuses to your Diocese Bishop.
The Soul you save may be your own or that of a family member.
You are right MAC. When Catholics refuse to read, and refuse to follow the requirements and instructions from our Magisterium it causes disunity among the people, and abuse of the Sacred Liturgy.
This disunity, disruption, and bickering actually drives people away from the Faith.
There are those who prefer and promote DISOBEDIENCE, disarray, and disorder.
As stated by the Magisterium, when at an OF Mass adhere to GRIM, not the whims of an individual(s).
When at an EF (Latin) Mass, adhere to the 1962 Missal.
These are the reasons I go to the Tridentine Latin Mass exclusively! Plus no Altar Girls, Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers, lay readers, no multi-priest con-celebrations and NO COMMUNION IN THE HAND!!!. Pope Benedict repaired the mistranslated “pro multis” and “et cum Spirito tuo”, which is good, but no Novus Ordo for me!
I go to the Ordinary Form of the Mass. I receive Holy Communion on the tongue. Due to arthritis in my knees I am unable to kneel. (There is no padded communion rail at my Church which also allows for assistance in getting up.)
If you read GIRM, Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers are not to be used on a regular basis. Since both forms Body (Bread) and Blood (Wine) are distributed at Mass in my Diocese, Extraordinary Ministers are needed.
There are not enough boys and men volunteering to serve, so yes there are some Altar girls.
Fortunately we have a good Priest, and a good Bishop.
You are correct Willi H and you thoughts are shared by thousands that are getting tired what what’s going on since V2 – Also, the shaking hands has to stop and in many areas it has –
So Willi H, (self proclaimed Bishop, Liturgist and expert Latin linguist): Americans are lucky to be able to have a Church for Mass, and priests. So, you are saying, for the Chinese, Indonesians, Indians, Pakistanis, and for those in the many African and South American countries” – “You must attend a Latin Mass!” We as Christians, must evangelize millions around the world, often the very poorest who are also often illiterate, in areas where there are often very few priests. Don’t you think it is an advantage for them to have the Mass in their own respective languages? Why require them to learn Latin first? And certainly, the Bible, and the Mass readings are always in the local tongue, everywhere in the world…You have forgotten that in your case, the Mass Readings and Epistles are always in English, not Latin, and this is so because they would be unintelligible to you, and most Mass goers, if read in Latin.
So, it is NOT the language, but the Spirit of the Mass, that is important.
And Willi, you are lucky to have a Parish with a Priest. You should realize that in present day America, there are now many towns and locations without a priest in residence, and weekday Masses must be replaced by Communion Services, lead by lay Ministers. So, Willi, you are saying, “Forget about daily Communion, because your town doesn’t have a priest!” Rather condescending, and not very kind.
Tom, In my humble opinion the, now called, ordinary form of Mass in structure and theology is more Protestant than Catholic. yet valid. It is what the martyrs of England and Ireland died opposing
Thank goodness we follow the directives of the Catholic Church and not your not so humble “opinion.”
Anonymous another insult of yours towards Warren…he is stating the truth and was not insulting you….as you have him. Geeze! Is that your Catholic behavior to another Catholic, especially one that may be more traditional. I grew up in the New Mass….I use to think that traditional folks were rigid but as I matured and grew more in my faith….with comments as yours, I feel embarrassed to say that perhaps their concerns regarding people who where indoctrinated in the many abuses that occur in many parishes, that they may be closer to the truth and more valid to what they think about it. Look how you responded with an insult. I surely don’t want you representing my generation…..who knows maybe you are not from my generation but just a modernist or a liberal…as they call it.
I am learning more through the past years and have gained a tremendous respect for those who are more Traditional. I am more Charismatic but I surely appreciate what I learned from them and have become more respectful of reverence and holiness of the church, I learned from them why it’s so important.
Both Mass forms can be reverent and holy…depending on the parish and how their pastor leads.
Unfortunately many Catholics do NOT follow the requirements (directives) o the Catholic Church.
They do not adhere to the REQUIRED GIRM.
In many cases they are too lazy to read it, and rely on the whims of others.
You might be reading a little too much into what Willi said. A lot of his comments, as well as Tucker’s, are relevant to the Novo Ordus Mass. But I’m not sure what you mean about the “Spirit” of the Mass being the important thing. That could be interpreted as a recipe for complete liturgical chaos, although that’s perhaps not what you intend.
correction: novus ordo Mass, not novo ordus
Novus ordo is a term popularized by schismatics, rebellious groups and disgruntled Catholics. There is no such thing as a novus ordo church or mass.
fish I really hate ignorance and your comments surely display that. You are just a product of someone who just wants to find more ways to abuse the word schismatics…..geeze people, it’s like the people who say there is no such thing as gay. Got news for you people….gay doesn’t mean happy anymore.
Here is what the church says:
Definition: Novus Ordo is short for novus Ordo Missae, which literally means the “new order of the Mass” or the “new ordinary of the Mass.” It is used to refer to the Mass promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1969 to distinguish it from the Traditional Latin Mass. The Novus Ordo is the ordinary form of the Roman Rite; the Traditional Latin Mass is the extraordinary form. Both are equally valid, and any qualified priest can celebrate either.
So fish before you make the ill assumption that this term is popularized by schismatics…think again…with that ill assumption you are throwing the whole church under the bus.
Abeca Christian, aboutdotcom is not the Church. Google Vatican Novus Ordo. See what kind of websites come up. Yes, many people refer to the ordinary form of the Roman Rite as the novus ordo. But the term has been popularized by schismatics or rebellious groups like the SSPX. It is usually used as a perjorative. It is not the official name of anything.
fish I don’t know what to tell you anymore….all this division is truly sad to me. Take all the names out and you have human beings…people….except that some will be faithful and some may struggle, some actually are concerned and voice it and some will find displeasure. All I can do is reflect and look up to and thank the Lord He is better, way better than us and still His mercy is unending.
I fonder often…people say if Adam and Even hadn’t been disobedient…..really…I think that eventually they would have been disobedient, sooner or later…some one was tempted and all it took was a serpent to cause sin and death upon humanity. I ask why did God allow it? He is perfect and knows all. People say that the evil one won’t do anything without the Lord’s permission….even the evil one is obedient that way? Really? But humans are not obeying or is there something deeper that we don’t know.
The examples you give are precisely whey Latin is a good idea. Ever been on tech support with someone in another country speaking “English”? Many times Mass here in English can be a similar experience or worse. You do not have to learn Latin to assist at a Latin Mass.
So Mass in Latin which almost no one understands is a “good idea?”
LOL!!!
Anonymous, your ignorance is showing.
I have a OF Daily Missal. On the opposite side of each page, the OF Mass is in Latin.
I have a EF 1962 Missal. On the opposite side of each page, the EF Mass is in English.
So unless someone is not literate, there should be no problem in understand either. (Try checking things out prior to providing misinformation in the public media.)
From my OF (Ordinary Form) daily missal –
“Dominus vobiscum” – “The Lord be with you”.
“Et cum spiritu tuo” – “And with your spirit”.
fish,
You need to read the documents of the Church, there definitely is a Novus Ordo Mass!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Please direct me to the document I need.
fish it is obviously that we do not see eye to eye on this so lets agree to disagree……
Doubting Tom,
I speak only for myself! I am not a Bishop, Liturgist, nor a Latin linguist. I don’t speak Latin but can read the English translation in my St. Joseph’s Missal. The Church advanced from the catacombs in Rome to every corner of the world, evangelizing every tribe of the earth with the Latin Mass (standardized and codified in 1570 by Pope St. Pius V)! Latin is THE language of the Church. The Tridentine Latin Mass was actively suppressed since the 1960s, and people have sacrificed, sometimes traveling great distances to attend. Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have permitted it’s return, but some Bishops continue to suppress it. You can go to your hootenanny Mass if you want to. I don’t care. And get off your high horse while your at it! If Novus Ordo and Vatican II are so great, why the decline in priestly vocations, low Mass attendance, closing parishes, lack of orthodoxy? Allow me to worship my God as I see fit without the condescension!
Willi, no one is denying you the right to attend a Latin Mass, and we would like the same consideration for attending a Mass in English, and this means, no more smearing and condescending to those who do. Apparently, you think that those attending an English Mass are going to a Hootenanny. I have attended in other parishes, Masses where there were clowns dancing, or various protests. I do not approve of this, any more than you. We are both speaking of, and supporting, standard Masses, whether Latin or English, (or Spanish), approved by the Archdiocese. And it is noticeable, that you, and many of the commentators above, have not addressed a single one of my points. For example, you claim Latin is needed, and anyone can follow it in the Missal. What about the Daily Mass Readings!!! They are in ENGLISH for a good reason! So that they can be understood! Aren’t the Daily Readings an essential part of the Mass? And, aren’t they read in English even at a Latin Mass? Are you denying this? Are you saying the Daily Mass readings aren’t needed? Please answer this point. The honest reply is that English is acceptable at every Mass! This has to be correct. There is no alternative.
You are also evidently saying, all Catholics around the world, should attend the Latin Mass. Willi, what about the millions of illiterate and poverty stricken people around the world! Many cannot read, and are in areas where there aren’t any Church structures, or Missals, and very few priests. They can only be evangelized, in their own language. Let’s be realistic here, Willi! This isn’t the US or Europe, with it’s nice nuns and parochial schools. They are not going to learn Latin out there in Asia or Africa – the educational structure isn’t there! So, please, acknowledge that they can go to Mass in their own language.
The final point is – What are we to do with those in rural areas, without a Priest for Daily Mass? Once again, Willi’s answer is – “tough! They should go to a Latin Mass, and so much for Lay Ministers! We don’t want them!” Well, pardon us, Willi. When I’m traveling in a remote area, I’m very grateful for those lay people who provide a daily Communion Service – that is wonderful service on their part!
A service that is very much like the very first Church services, back in Biblical times…
Also, Willi, please remember that in the original Church, at the beginning, the scriptures were written in Koine Greek! Not Latin! Several hundred years went by before Jerome translated them…
So, yes, the Mass in the common native language is very acceptable, thank you, and once again, this means an approved standard Mass.
Tom can you just leave him be….He was speaking for himself…He has the choice to attend the parish he prefers and has his own sentiments..which the church has not admonished so he is not committing a sin. You only came to my attention because of your uncharitable comments towards Willi…..
A.C. Thanks for your kind sentiments. To Tom’s points:
1. “…no one is denying you the right to attend a Latin Mass,…”. Any Diocese without a Tridentine Latin Mass, is denying adherents of the old Rite, to that Mass. The new Mass in English is every where, but most Catholics in the US and Europe don’t even go.
2. Perhaps “hootenanny” is a little harsh. If your offended by that, I’m sorry. But you yourself stated you saw abuses in some the Masses. It is to these to which I refer. If your parish is observant of liturgical norms, go for you!
3. The readings. It is customary in the Tridentine Latin Mass to read the Epistle and the Gospel, first in Latin, and then in the vernacular, just before the sermon of the priest. It is not absolutely necessary to read the Epistle or Gospel in the vernacular, but it is done. Anymore than is it necessary for a sermon at all. If I were to attend a Tridentine Latin Mass is say, Outer Mongolia, I could read the English translation of the Epistle and Gospel for the day in my St. Joseph’s Missal. I won’t get the gist of the sermon, of course, but I will understand the lessons of the Epistle and Gospel. I don’t speak Outer Mongolian, but the Mass itself would be the same as the one I go to in San Diego. I would feel at home at the church in Outer Mongolia.
4. “…what about the millions of illiterate and poverty stricken people around the world! Many cannot read, and are in areas where there aren’t any Church structures, or Missals, and very few priests.” How did the Church bring Christ to Africa, South America, Asia, and other underdeveloped areas of the world for 1,965 years before the vernacular Masses?
5. “…What are we to do with those in rural areas, without a Priest for Daily Mass?” Daily Mass is not required for one’s salvation. Mass on Sunday is. I appreciate the piety of daily Communicants. In the dark days, before the Tridentine Latin Mass was accepted in Church mainstream, one Traditionalist priest would travel great distances to as many as 4 or 5 Mass sites for the Sunday Mass. Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers are understandable in the circumstances you cite, but why is there one in a church with a priest officiating? Cannot the priest give communion? Why not send the “Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers” to the rural areas you cite?
6. …”the original Church, at the beginning, the scriptures were ” written in Koine Greek!” True, but Our Lord spoke the words of consecration at the first Mass in Aramaic, not Greek. Latin was and is the language of the Latin Rite. Our Popes say the Mass (albeit the new Order) at St. Peter’s, in Latin!!!
Go to your Mass, Brother Tom, and I will go to mine. And please refrain from mind reading. You read into what I wrote what I did not even intend to impart. No one is going to take away the Mass you like, so relax.
OK Willi, and I admit, facts are often very sharp edged, and very uncharitable towards those who hold opinions. For example, let’s see just how well the Church has brought Christianity to Asia:
Percent of Christians in Asian Countries:
India: 2% China: 4% Japan: 2% Indonesia 8%
Thailand: 1% Cambodia: 1% So, for the most populous continent on the planet, say about, 4% are Christian at present – Not an outstanding result for Priests with the Latin Rite, is it? So, the conclusion is that evangelization needs to be carried out in their native languages. Sure, those who wish to bring the Latin Rite should do so, let’s use all of our talents, and it will bring committed people to teach the gospel. But a population of 4% Christians does not reflect well on the use of Latin, and this after 1,965 years of evangelization.
Asia had developed civilizations (China, Japan, India) that actively and brutally resisted any Christian influx, Catholic or Protestant. Catholicism did very well in the Philippines and fair in Indo-China. African nations that were formerly French, Belgian or Portuguese colonies have major Catholic populations. Latin America is still Catholic majority. Not too shabby! We should also look at re-evangelizing Europe! The Christian roots are nearly gone!
For years we have endured liturgical experimentation born of the very late 1960’s and early 1970’s and even earlier. The bad music and horrid vestments. The hurried liturgies. The Masses that are illicitly (and sometimes invalidly) improvised/trimmed down on the fly. The stripping away of any semblance of solemness, the impact of sexism/feminism, etc.
This cancer is slowly dying with the retirement of more and more priests that were improperly formed or went off the liturgical reservation for other reasons. I for one deeply appreciate these changes and the resultant improvements through our new priests that appear to be far better prepared to serve the Church. I suspect someone born today — or perhaps within the next decade will never know a great deal of the pain and frustration many of us have felt over the past 40+ years.
At the same time I absolutely detest the faith inspectors that can be found in many Catholic parishes. Those that feel they personally know more than the Catholic Church. I call them the EWTNcatholics or faith inspectors as Pope Francis does. Those that feel the need to say the EF Mass (sorry, “tlm”) is somehow “better” than the OF Mass despite what the Church teaches. Those that claim communion on the tongue while kneeling is somehow “better” than communion in hand while standing — despite what the Church has decided and officially communicated on this and many other issues.
I find the faith inspectors to be repulsive due to their arrogant, stultified and often dishonest behavior. Even more important I am concerned about how their obnoxious behavior impacts the celebration of the Mass at individual parishes. So many faith inspectors are so offensive that they drive people to the other extreme mentioned above or worse yet, all the way out of the parish or even the Church itself.
In a word, both extremes suck! They not only deviate from what the Church demands of us (and no, it’s not a matter of “liberal” being bad and “conservative” being good), they offend and drive away the faithful. Both extremes suck extremely badly!
I hope the reform continues is a positive, fluid, non-antagonistic and non-ceasing organic manner. May God have mercy on all of us.
I understand your point on extremes being wrong on both sides, however neutrality could try omitting such terms as “EWTNcatholics” while trying to convey a negative aspect. As one who unfortunately was raised during the 1970 & 80, I had no solid foundation in my Catholic faith eventually leading me to fall away from it altogether; that was until years later when a new cable system was installed in my home and I came across a channel where a bunch of nuns were praying the rosary and little by little EWTN played a crucial role in my finding my way home. I would hardly call myself a faith inspector, but I’m pretty certain what may seem like arrogance may also be concern that some of the measures taken outside the bounds of the way it is to be done will lead to souls falling away, and in many ways, they have proof to such in recent history. Just look at the Cathedral in Los Angeles! The building’s exterior looks like a mall!
Yes and EWTN could reach and influence so many more Catholics if it didn’t constantly beat the “liberals is bad” drum. I found EWTN to be a great help but I also found it to be greatly embarrassing at times as well.
Before anyone judges the Cathedral in LA (not my favorite building by a long shot) they should be required to attend an Easter Vigil Mass there. Then they might begin to understand that while LA’s Cathedral does a terrible job of putting itself on display, it does a tremendously good job of putting the Eucharist on display and making it the focus of all those in attendance. In that sense the architect is a genius — a fact lost on those who have no done their practical homework before popping-off.
” I found EWTN to be a great help but I also found it to be greatly embarrassing at times as well.”
Gee R.B. Rodda, you are describing yourself. I found your criticism of the bishops meeting at the Luxury Spa in San Diego to be a great help. You pointed out how bad that looked and then whoops…all of the sudden, due to anger, you lost control of your senses and embarrassed yourself greatly when you undermined Father Perozich for defending and upholding the teachings of the Catholic Church and for protecting souls. Cats out of the bag RB.
That a culture of dialogue, listening and mutual respect may prevail among peoples.
Cathy, what cat? What bag? This isn’t another gay lobby fantasy, is it?
Rodda,
Unless something has changed, how can you say that they at the Rogmahal do a tremendous job of putting the Blessed Sacrament on display when it is housed in a little room behind a brick wall where no can see it unless they happen to have Xray vision?
Kenneth M. Fisher
The arrogant and angry RB Rodda…but you are right about one thing liberals do tend to drive faithful Catholics out of parishes and the Church itself…..
A plea for tolerance on both sides:
I get that those who feel that 20th century masses somehow throw away improvements on masses that accumualted over prior centuries. I DO get that.
But I also have to share with you that when I was searching for a faith community while I was in college, I had in the back of my head that I was baptized Lutheran yet went to Catholic schools and had been more exposed to the post V2 liturgies than I had to any prior liturgies or even to the Lutheran eucharistic liturgy.
I spent a lot of time in college comapring and contrasting the Lutheran eucharistic liturgy and the catholic eucharistic liturgy. I even bought copies of their “GIRM”s, such as they were back then. I engaged both my Catholic Pastor and my Lutheran Pastor in discussions about the differences, and pushed both of them about why they do “this” or “that”.
I also went to Easter rite Catholic masses, Ortohodox catholic Divine Liturgies, presbyteryan services, and others.
I went all over the map.
I chose Catholocism. And its Mass. Its “NO” Mass, as some of you write.
I have never looked back. I have never in the past decades felt a need to go to any other denomination on a regular basis since that decision.
But I have to say, I am currently wondering whether I belong here. Even if we get over the anti-gay rhetoric that serves up daily here on this website, I am appalled by people trying to pretend that their form of Catholicism is the right one, even while they dissent from official doctrine to do so.
It makes me want to find a community that truly aks the Holy Spirit to speak in our language today.
You will be glad to hear that the Vatican and the World Lutheran Federation signed a document in Rome a couple of weeks ago that calls for joint celebrations, world wide, of the 500th anniversay of the Reformation. Should be interesting to watch. Remember that the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Federation came to agreement a number of years ago on the doctrine of justification.
Bob, they agreed that justification (which concerns original sin) is, unmerited, gratuitously of the Holy Spirit but they disagree on the resulting condition. Catholics say that original sin is washed away (remitted) in the sacrament of Baptism while Lutherians say it is merely covered over, with or without Baptism.
Bob One – Please provide the exact documentation for your statement, so that we find it on the internet and don’t have to take your word for anything.
” joint celebrations, world wide, of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation ” – NOT TRUE. However the Lutherans did invite German Bishops to such a celebration scheduled for 2017.
YFC. the problem is that much is going in some of the churches in California and some of the Catholic Colleges that are totally inappropriate concerning homosexual behavior. It is not stopping bullying that I am against, but the constant approval of such practices. I get tired of hearing about it too, but it is everywhere — on the television, in my inbox, on the computer news and on and on. It used to be that people kept their sins quiet and did not brag about them, or at least not expect people to give their approval to them, but that is not the case any more for either heterosexual sins or homosexuals sins. It is so much “in your face” now that some of us over react at times. I know sometimes I do, but at other times things just need to be said. The fact that some are pushing “marriages” between those of the same-sex and the bad parades have been just the “straw that have broken the camels back” for many of us here in California. Such behavior is also being pushed in the public schools. So and so never has two moms or two dads, so and so only got here with a mother and father, He might have a step-father or step- mother, but not two of the same sex, and most of us do not want our children to be told otherwise. It seems there is no place one is safe from it being shoved in our faces, so we of course react to it. Many have left the Church because of the inappropriate behavior that went on at some of the Masses at their churches, not minor breaches of the rubrics but major ones. A church hall should not have anything done in it such as vulgar dancing in next to nothing costumes either, such as has been allowed in at least one church in SF. Mark PA lives in a rather conservative state, so he knows nothing about nor has he experienced what some people have gone through here. Sorry if you are disappointed, but those are just the facts. Perhaps you should speak out yourself about such extremes, and maybe things will get better in the Church.
Please, please keep in mind that many of the comments you read here are flat-out factually incorrect.
So many here are driven by their own egos and personal preferences AND NOT what the Church ACTUALLY directs/teaches. Hang in there.
Anonymo, question: “Who am I to judge?” Answer: “I am to judge the gay mafia in the Curia”; like, dude, who did you think Pope Francis was talking about?
YFC, as you did your research and thus probably know much more about Lutheran and Orthodox terminology than I would, I was wondering if you knew if the Orthodox and/or the Lutheran’s refer to their “Eucharistic Liturgies” as the “Mass”? I was under the impression that only those aligned with the Roman Catholic Church used the term “Mass”. Now only recently do I frequently hear the “Mass” being referred to as the “Eucharistic Celebration” in many Catholic parishes. This terminology rings very protestant to me. I do not ever recall hearing before you used it, the term “Eucharistic Liturgy”. Is that what the Lutheran’s and Orthodox call it?
To comment on your lament over the perceived “anti-gay rhetoric” served up daily on this website, I can only say that if any of what you read here is not aligned with Catholic teaching then you should charitably “instruct the uninformed” (Col 3:16) which is one of the seven Spiritual Works of Mercy. That being said, if any of what you read here is aligned with Catholic teaching and it makes you uncomfortable then welcome to the club! The Catholic faith is not for the faint of heart! I can’t think of any saint who lived a comfortable life nor did not continually fight his/her sinful nature. Can you?!!!! Oh, another Spiritual Work of Mercy is “admonish the sinner” (Lk 17:3). Anyway, I know few people, including myself, who would remain Catholic if we based our allegiance to the Church solely on what some of our fellow Catholics believed. I myself remain Catholic because I am convinced that it is the True Church which Jesus Christ himself established.
Tracy I’m sorry for not responding earlier, I didn’t see your comment until now.
Lutherans in the United States do not commonly use the term “mass”, but it is not a forbidden term. I think in Europe, Lutherans may still use the term. I asked about that when i was in my process, and learned that the origin of the term is somewhat unknown, tracing its roots to the phase (in Latin), “the Mass is ended, go in peace”, without any other or earlier reference.
I believe Orthodox use the term “Divine Liturgy”. I don’t know if they have a word for “mass”, as I note above, it comes from the Latin “missae”, so there is no direct translation into Greek or other Eastern languages.
I’m clearly not expert on these things, so if others have better answers, I’m all ears.
Fine post, Tracy. Guess you found the spell checker at last :)
One of the irritated and annoyed Father Perozich inspectors says …”I call them the EWTNcatholics or faith inspectors as Pope Francis does.”
Pope Francis does not make fun of or criticize EWTN but he does admit that there is a homosexual lobby.
After insulting so many people this particular Father Perozich inspector then says ………”I hope the reform continues is a “positive”, fluid, non-antagonistic and non-ceasing organic manner. May God have mercy on all of us.”
You’ve got that right Catherine. RB Rodda is the Faith Inspector, but she may not realize it.
I’m so touched that you wall wish to inspect the faith of your brothers and sisters. JUDGE, lest ye be judged. Go on about it now, inspect, judge.critique.
But please, please, do not allow those moments of inspection or inspection of the inspectors, or the judgement of the inspectors of the judgers of the inspectors to take you away from the perpetual tasks of prayer, fasting, and sacrifice for our Lord’s sake.
Go along, now, but keep in mind that Christ died for ALL, for the forgiveness of sin. Regardless of how you come out post-inspection.
Wouldn’t Our Holy Father be proud of us? It should give him much fodder for another sermon. (Lots of Laughs.)
Anonymous writes,
“Catherine, Didn’t you just criticize a person for liking EWTN a couple of weeks ago? ”
Copy and cite the exact post, including date, time and topic. I have never criticized a person for liking EWTN. I love Mother Angelica’s shows and have often posted quotes on CCD that were taken from the EWTN archives especially about the destructive feminism or “Ungodly Rage” within the Church.
However, I have addressed and criticized duplicitous posters such as yourself for undermining Church teaching while hiding. Once again, cite the exact post, date, time and topic.
Similar to R.B Rodda’s telltale criticism of Mother Angelica ….Wolves in sheep’s clothing and birds of the same feather often flocked and criticized Mother Angelica together.
Wikipedia… “In a 1993 episode of Mother Angelica Live, Mother Angelica harshly criticized a mimed re-enactment of the Stations of the Cross at the World Youth Day in Denver, Colorado, which was attended by Pope John Paul II. Mother Angelica was particularly upset that a woman was playing Jesus. Controversial archbishop Rembert Weakland of the Archdiocese of Milwaukee called Mother Angelica’s comments “…one of the most disgraceful, un-Christian, offensive, and divisive diatribes I have ever heard”.[16] Mother Angelica responded by saying, “He didn’t think a woman playing Jesus was offensive? He can go put his head in the back toilet as far as I am concerned”![17]
In 1997, Mother Angelica publicly criticized Cardinal Roger Mahony, then the archbishop of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, for his pastoral letter on the Eucharist called “Gather Faithfully Together: A Guide for Sunday Mass”, which she perceived had a lack of emphasis on transubstantiation:[18] “I’m afraid my obedience in that diocese would be absolutely zero. And I hope everybody else’s in that diocese is zero”.[19] Cardinal Mahony regarded her comments as accusing him of heresy.[20] Mother Angelica later issued a conditional, albeit reluctant, apology for her comments.
In 1999, Bishop David Foley of the Archdiocese of Birmingham, Alabama issued a decree prohibiting priests in his diocese from celebrating Mass ad orientem (“to the east”; that is, with both the priest and the people facing east) under most circumstances.[21] Although the decree did not specifically mention EWTN, the wording of the decree, which stated that “…any Mass that is or will be televised for broadcast or videotaped for public dissemination”, supporters and critics alike generally agreed that the decree was written with EWTN specifically in mind. Bishop Foley stated that the practice of having the priest’s back to the people “amounts to making a political statement and is dividing the people.”
June 16, 2013 11:34 AM Jason Collins
Give up your sins and you won’t have to worry about being judged … and you can then admonish other sinners without remorse, and with charity.
Catherine, what’s a Father Perozich inspector? Didn’t you just criticize a person for liking EWTN a couple of weeks ago? I guess you are an EF attendee?
As a woman, Catherine, I totally agreed with Mother Angelica on that one. No woman should be playing the part of the Lord Jesus Christ, even though there have been women Saints. The women Saints never played the part of the Lord. The Lord Jesus Christ was in the form of a man. Keep him that way. I would never attend such Stations of the Cross with women playing the Lord, and luckily we have never have such nonsense in any of the churches I attend.
sexist drivel. God is neither male nor female.
Wrong, Anonymous. God the Father and the Holy Spirit are neither male nor female, but the Lord Jesus Christ, the second person of the Holy Trinity was a man, God incarnate and should be played by a man, unless perhaps there is a play in a monastery where there are just women for women, but even Mother Angelica does not have her nuns do that, so it seems unnecessary.
Another thing, even though God the Father is neither sex, he is to be referred to as Father, not mother, as Jesus Christ called him. I am sooooo tired of all this gender bending, and so are a whole lot of other people.
Anonymous you are stooping so low…Catherine would never do that…she appreciate EWTN ….this is sick of you to slander her good name!
But this goes without saying that the faithful will be persecuted and Father Perozich is a true gentleman in Christ, honoring God and so many good people here too who defend good true lay faithful…the persecution is part of living here on earth but our greatest rewards are in heaven!
At the time of my writing this, Catherine, there are exactly 3 references to homosexuality on this page. All of them are contained within comments you authored. You bring it up every chance you get, whether the conversation has anything at all to do with the subject. I wonder why?
YFC,
“You bring it up every chance you get, whether the conversation has anything at all to do with the subject. I wonder why.”
That’s right YFC and here is the reason why. When discussing the many ills within the Church, you don’t skirt around the issue with niceties and denial. You go to the root cause of these ills and those who are in control of many of our parishes within our dioceses. Pope Francis has openly confirmed the existence of a gay lobby within the Church. Your homosexual activism and MarkfromPa’s and a few others confirms that the gay lobby is continuously working to dismantle Catholic Church teaching.
I distinctly remember that Stephen Brady referred to Orange County and San Diego as thriving nests of homosexuality. A friend of mine who asked me to tape record her dying statements regarding the homosexual filth and corruption in Palm Springs also reminds me to speak up against this corruption. Although we do have a new bishop in Orange County many of the very same lavender mafia clergy are still very active and many are still pastors of parishes in our diocese. Reverence at Mass is extremely important. We can discuss reverence at Mass till we are blue in the face. Church teaching and reverence at Mass will continue to suffer when a pastor is more interested in gay lobbying than leading souls to Christ or truly caring about reverent Masses.
Here is another post of yours which showed you are more interested in protecting homosexual behavior than protecting the souls of all men. You never address the spiritual risk of committing homosexual acts. YOU are the one who is showing the greatest lack of love and lack of charity for not warning your fellow homosexuals to strive to remain chaste. That has everything to do with being a “good” fellow Catholic vs. the homosexual activists who still control many parishes and the homosexual activists who undermine courageous priests on this website. You accuse me of bringing up the topic every time, well thank you YFC for the compliment because it is true about the homosexual lobby or lavender mafia within the church and until that is stopped the error and disobedience will continue. Several posters also gave themselves away when they undermined Father Perozich. The objectively disordered thinking of a homosexual is what has you asking me why I keep bringing the topic up and why I reject homosexual activism within the Church and your activism on this blog. It is an illogical and disordered question to ask faithful Catholics why they keep bringing up the pervasive cancer (activism and lobbying) that has and still poisons many a diocese.
Topic: Los Angeles Meningitis victim declared brain dead.
Your Fellow Catholic says:
April 17, 2013 at 10:01 pm
“Catherine. If you had actually read the original post and my “might be helpful” response, you would see that CCD says that bacterial meningitis is a sexually transmitted disease. It is not. You are jump on the bandwagon of being critical of anyone gay, and to issue condemnatory comments of this man whom you have never met, facts be damned.
I’m not even sure why CCD chose to run this piece in the first place. What does this story have anything at all to do with Catholicism is beyond me. Unfortunately people die of communicable diseases every day. CCD jumps on this story because it just so happens to involve a gay man. What do you suppose their motivation could be for running this story?”
YFC, We do not have to meet men or women in order to consistently teach what the Church teaches. You have been caught in another lie. I never once condemned this man. I was critical of your inability to even uphold Church teaching on what could have been a critical teaching moment. You just chose to tell everyone not to worry and essentially continue business as usual. You condemned yourself by what you did not say to help your fellow man. No more denial YFC, your only and best hope is to completely reject any sin that you may have become comfortable with, especially your activism on this website. You’ll call that statement hate and I’ll call that statement truth.
Catherine,
Our Lord said “admonish the sinner” so I would call your statements acts of love!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Thank you Kenneth Fisher!
YFC, I guess you forgot that you yourself brought up homosexuality on this page the day before in your June 23rd, 12:23 am post. Maybe it was the early morning hour which caused you to forget.
I, too, understand what you mean, R.B. Rodda, by extremes and trying to avoid them, but I really do not consider EWTN to be extreme either way. In fact some people who go only to the SSPX Masses complain the other way about them. To me they pretty much try to cater to different ethnic groups and different styles of Masses within the Church but according to the rubrics. That is just my opinion. They have everything from the “Coming Home Network”, interviews of Protestant converts, to Archbishop Sheen videos and stories of the newer and older Saints. To me there seems to be something for everyone, within reason. They even have “Life on the Rock” for teens and young people with very pro life programming. That is not my “cup of tea” as I am older, but the younger people seem to enjoy it. I receive on the tongue as much as possible, but I do not complain and “slap” the hands of people who do not. Quite frankly, from what you have posted above, I should think you would like EWTN. Everybody has his/her own opinion on church buildings, and, let’s face it, there are different people and architects who are vying for the jobs many times with friends who push one favorite architect over another. Many people fail to mention that money is involved in more ways than one and can cause clashes if someone does not get the job. What will satisfy one groups of people, just will not satisfy another. We ALL complain and “inspect” at times. Aren’t we annoying? but ever so human.
I think some of the EWTN programming is excellent. The Coming Home Network is an excellent example. I also remember Mother Angelica herself damning someone over the air. There’s a recording of it on the Internet. That was a HUGE turn-off — something she never apologized for.
EWTN has done a lot. It’s done a great deal more since Mother Angelica has not been in the middle of things. Hopefully it will do even more by not obsessing about “liberals” and the Cathedral in Los Angeles.
R.B Rodda I find your comments attacking Mother Angelica and EWTN in poor taste. I know of many converts who came to the Catholic faith because of Mother Angelica…there are many…how many can you say you brought home? Instead you probably scare them….
Rodda, Catholics who adhere to: Holy Scripture, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, Code of Canon Law, and GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal) are thee “Faithful Catholics”. They are obedient to the teaching of Christ and His Church.
Those who are disobedient are NOT “Faithful”.
Anyone who does not believe that both Forms of the Mass are Holy – body and blood of Christ – is a heretic and schismatic. Not a Faith Inspector.
To quote Pope Francis: ” “In this Year of Faith let us ask ourselves if we have actually taken a few steps to get to know Christ and the truths of faith more, by reading and meditating on the Scriptures, studying the Catechism, steadily approaching the Sacraments.” – Pope Francis, May 15, 2013.
So? That’s all axiomatic. What’s your point?
I still dislike BOTH extremes. They do grave damage to the Body of Christ.
I consider you an extreme Rodda…so what does that make?
So, the new favorite phrase of liberals (who just happen to be Catholics) is “faith inspector.” They sound like a bunch of tantrum-prone children who just learned to say “NO!”
RB Rodda, you ARE the FAITH INSPECTOR that the Pope was talking about.
Go back and read your post. You are bellyaching about nothing of importance, and it would not surprise me if you were the one from your Parish who drives people from the Church.
Btw Faith Inspecter, RB Rodda, when you have brought as many Souls to the Christ as EWTN, then you can complain about them too. Until then, button up.
Take your Faith Inspecting elsewhere.
Rodda, if your Parish is so bad, you have an obligation to talk to your Pastor.
If that does not work, talk to your Bishop.
This is no place to vent your own parish problems since we can not help you.
Don’t be naive…
I think you have your facts confused and wrong.
Thank the Lord!
He sent us Faith Inspector R.B. to inspect the “faith inspectors”.
I am so relieved!
You must go to radically different parishes than I do. I have never seen these “faith inspectors” at Mass. Actually, as to communion in the hand, there are a number of reasons why it’s not such a good thing. Read this, even if you disagree with some of it. https://www.ccwatershed.org/blog/2013/mar/14/communion-hand/
Sacrilege of Christ’s body and blood is easy to commit with communion in the hand. In any case, taking communion in the hand is clearly permitted by the church.
I agree that people can get too fussy about liturgy – “liturgical narcissism” as Father Rutler calls it. The key is this: is there a theological reason behind a liturgical practice. I’m currently trying to study this subject.
Be sure, if you haven’t, to study the Scripture from the Old Testament and New Testament. Many excellent books and articles were written in the year leading up to the new translation.
Jesus himself said, when instituting the Eucharist: TAKE this all of you and EAT of it. Doesn’t communion on the tongue disregard Jesus’ first part of the command?
In a similar way, when he says take this ALL of you and DRINK from it. He meant communion in both species.
Just observing.
YFC, Jesus was speaking to His priests.
Folks it’s utterly ridiculous how this Rodda character judges others as faith inspectors yet he fits it more….I find this hypocrisy a distasteful way to share his point of view. Distasteful indeed.
Rodda’s comments as posted from the top of this thread makes me see that his relationship with Christ is a suffering one. Why on earth would he feel that he is so righteous and above all sinners who come to Christ’s church. He tries to remove their splinters but no one is seeking to remove his own rod in his eye.
So much bitterness he has….he is so busy casting down judgement but not doing much to grow in personal relationship with Christ….His complaints are geared on the wrong ones not on the righteous ones in Christ, we must detach ourselves from such things and seek our own growth instead. Maybe we need a balance of reporting here or maybe if someone suffers with depression and bitterness, they shouldn’t read all the bad articles that come on here….it may cause them to be more anger and bitter, who knows.
It reminds me of a bitter elder that I knew from another parish I use to attend, when she stopped attending mass, my husband and I were concerned for her. So we went looking for her at her home to check on her. She came to the door. We were happy that she was well but wondered why she wasn’t attending Mass anymore and if she needed help. We just wanted to make sure she was not ill, she had no close relatives. Well the whole time she just complained about the people who attended mass, she said she didn’t want to go to anymore because she thought people were hypocrites and gossipy. She hated them, she also felt ignored there….I apologized to her and allowed her to vent but then reminded her that we don’t go to Mass to watch others but to go and be with Jesus and receive Him. We tried helping her not to focus on the imperfections of others during mass. We also recommended maybe she would like to attend a different parish where she felt more comfortable. We kept apologizing but I think it was not good enough for her. It was sad, wish she was more focused in our Lord or perhaps look for a different parish….but I think that some people are just too busy looking at faults. I notice that the more loyal and faithful you are to honoring God, the more less popular you become…the liberals feel bad about themselves so they get much more relief by casting harsh uncalled and unjust judgements on those who seek to honor God. There was no reasoning with her….but we did keep her in our prayers.
Sweet Abeca,
That was a such beautiful post. I also hope and pray that RB removes his mean spirited bitterness towards his brothers and sisters in Christ. That is not easy to do if you do not accept, or agree with or uphold all of the teachings of the Catholic Church. Also, God bless you and your husband for truly caring about the welfare of that woman.
Prayer of St. Francis ……Lived by Abeca and her husband : )
Make me a channel of your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me bring your love.
Where there is injury, your pardon, Lord,
And where there’s doubt, true faith in you.
Verse 2:
Make me a channel of your peace.
Where there’s despair in life, let me bring hope.
Where there is darkness only light,
And where there’s sadness ever joy.
Refrain:
Oh Master, grant that I may never seek
So much to be consoled as to console.
To be understood as to understand,
To be loved as to love with all my soul.
Make me a channel of your peace.
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
In giving of ourselves that we receive,
And in dying that we’re born to eternal life.
Catherine I use to pray that prayer daily when I was growing up,(see so the Novous Ordo is not so bad after all, I did learn those awesome prayers with the Holy Cards they gave us in our youth) I had a beautiful prayer card…..it’s interesting how you brought that up…it may be the Holy Ghost that is reminding me to continue to pray it. Thank you for your comments. God bless you. : )
I guess everyone sees the faults in others and not in themselves. It would be so good if we compared our posts to the desires of St. Francis before we click on Post Comment. Everyone prays the same prayers. Everyone worships the same God and receives the same Christ in the Eucharist. Everyone has the same faults.
Anony how do you know that? I often reflect….I try not to be prideful and avoid temptations as much as possible. We are often tempted aren’t we. Temptations to do evil is wrong. Even what seems harmless…like having 3rd’s on ice cream or such.
I find your comments to put everyone in the same boat…not everyone is the same….I think you need to rethink what you just posted…it is troubling to even read it! I know of people who have a zeal in their hearts to please God and there are those who struggle more….I wouldn’t consider everyone in the same…sinners yes but not having the same faults.
here is a prayer “Lord please overlook my faults and help me not to fall into temptation but please Holy Ghost magnify what is really good in my heart. Help me to be more pleasing to you as the days pass by. Help me to pray the way that is most pleasing to you, to listen to you attentively and that no matter what requests I may have, that they are never to object to thy will but to only know what is thy will and to do what thy wills…I love you always and help me to love you more and more as it helps to increase my faith in thee, I pray for your wisdom and knowledge and to fear you all the days of my life….AMEN! “
Rodda,
You show a completer lack of knowledge of how most of those changes were stuffed down our throats. Starting with Communion in the Hands, it was absolutely forbidden by the Popes many times but the disobedient didn’t care, Standing for Communion ditto, Altar girls was brought about by choosing a time when the Pope was flat on his back in the hospital to lie to us that it was now approved, that in spite of the fact that the Pope had told Mother Theresa that he would never approve of such. In fact he didn’t, there is no signed document permitting such. I could go on and on, but this will suffice for now.
By the way, so called Eucharistic ministers are still not approved, but that makes no difference to the disobedient.
May God have mercy on your soul,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Rodda, the Church demands of us – GIRM for the Ordinary Form of the Mass, and the 1962 Missal for the Extraordinary Form (Latin) of the Mass.
There are many disobedient Catholics who are too lazy to read – In some cases causing the blind to lead the blind where they both will fall into the pit.
Effective May 1, 2013 –
Regarding the Mention of the Divine Name of St. Joseph
in the Eucharistic Prayers II, III, and IV
” Accordingly, mature consideration having been given to all the matters mentioned here above, this Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, by virtue of the faculties granted by the Supreme Pontiff Francis, is pleased to decree that the name of Saint Joseph, Spouse of the Blessed Virgin Mary is henceforth to be added to Eucharistic Prayers II, III, and IV, as they appear in the third typical edition of the Roman Missal, after the name of the Blessed Virgin Mary, ”
This can be found on the Vatican web site by searching: ” Saint Joseph Eucharistic Prayer”.
The name of the DECREE is: “CONGREGATION FOR DIVINE WORSHIP AND THE DISCIPLINE OF THE SACRAMENTS Decree “.
If your Parish Priest does not do this starting May 1, give him copy of the decree. If that does not work, contact your Diocese Bishop.
Should be: ” CONGREGATION FOR DIVINE WORSHIP AND THE DISCIPLINE OF THE SACRAMENTS Decree Regarding the Mention of the Divine Name of St. Joseph in the Eucharistic Prayers II, III, and IV”.
Oh, David, you sound like a real gem.
I too find the sign of peace so annoying. During the most solemn part of the Mass, when Our Lord is present on the Altar in the Host, you have people kissing, waving and talking. It is so distracting when I would rather keep my full attention on the Altar.
Bless you, Ann! You have a sympathetic soul in yours truly. I have been repulsed by this new age practice since day one. The kiss of peace was once confined only to priests and deacons at the altar, never the entire congregation. One more irritating innovation introduced by way of Bishop Bugnini’s novus ordo,
an attempt to simulate a protestant prayer service, by his own admission.
Your “Bishop Bugnini’s novus ordo” comment identifies you as someone ignorant of the truth and supportive of conspiracy theory. May God help you.
Annibale Bugnini, C.M. (June 14, 1912–July 3, 1982) was a Roman Catholic prelate. Ordained in 1936 and named archbishop in 1972, he oversaw the reform of the Catholic liturgy that followed the
Second Vatican Council of 1962-1965. He remains a very controversial figure due to allegations tha he was a Freemason, though he denied these allegations during his lifetime and they have never been
conclusively proven or disproven.
So you know better than the Church? You’re more capable of crafting a liturgy than she is? Really?
Rodda, go read GIRM.
Shaking hands with anyone who is not nearest to you (either side) is an ABUSE.
Further hand shaking is NOT a requirement. (It is up to the Diocese Bishop.)
You do not know what the Church requires at Mass. All you know are the abuses.
Go to the VATICAN web site. Then search “GENERAL INSTRUCTION of the ROMAN MISSAL.
Some of the abuses in the USA are appalling.
Read and then contact the Diocese Bishop if these are in your Parish.
Be obedient to Christ’s Church.
What “abuses?” Shaking hands at the sign of peace?
I think a far greater wrong are people who suggest their personal preferences are “better” — such as receiving on the tongue while kneeling. The “normative way/indult” argument is particularly laughable.
Rodda if you only knew how sad you make me feel with your comments….laughable? really, I don’t find it comical coming from you but only tearful….you broke my heart, I’m sure that is how Jesus feels, heartbroken, at all this division and disrespect.
The concerns that many have are not laughable…your laugh is why our youth today do not know that they are sinning when they are…for sin has been desensitized.
I am not angered by your words but only saddened at how some think so poorly at the concerns that the faithful have….they are genuine concerns and we have a duty to reflect on them not disrespect or discount them or make fun of them…..reflection is truly a beautiful thing…saints do it often.
Rodda is a Faith Inspector. Complains about anything she does not agree with, what she does not know, and what she does not understand. And she is trying to label others with her own label.
Her diatribes have nothing to do with Church teaching.
First, it’s not an “abuse.” Learn the actual terminology.
Second, are the people you attend Mass with incapable of shaking hands? Must the sign of peace be removed altogether as you and others so obviously crave?
Get over yourself already.
Rodda, the Faith Inspector, who likes to start arguments, read GIRM on the Vatican web site. Your comments show much ignorance of what the Mass is supposed to be.
You are not supposed to cause a commotion. GIRM is clear that the sign of peace is only for those close to you (near you), and shaking hands is the decision of the Diocese Bishop.
Rodda, please read GIRM so that everyone does not have to correct you or call you the “Faith Inspector”.
It is up to the Diocese Bishop – what sign of peace is used. It does not have to be shaking hands, but it can be. Although sign of peace is required in GIRM, shaking hands is not.
It is not sinful to shake hands if that is what the specific Diocese Bishop prescribes.
Regarding EWTN, Mother Angelica got permission directly from Pope John Paul II for the way the Mass is said on EWTN. In fact, he gave her the Monstrance they use for Eucharistic Adoration at the small chapel as a gift. Again, please read the book on her life. She has saved more souls than you ever will especially with your inaccurate information that you put out in the media.
Not adhering to GIRM is an abuse of the Sacred Liturgy and disobedient to the Church.
(Any exceptions must be approved by the Vatican. Pope John Paul II approved the Mass at EWTN himself. He also gave them as a gift a Monstrance for Eucharistic Adoration.)
R. B. Rodda: I shall not dignify your assault with a response.
Because you don’t have one. Please start to follow what the Church actually teaches and directs and not your ego.
I think one of the saddest things on EWTN is that the skip the sign of peace. They miss a daily teaching opportunity to show the world how to properly conduct themselves during that part of the Mass. When a visiting bishop celebrates the Mass and the Sign of Peace is celebrated, it’s beautiful to watch.
That sort of “choice” show extreme hubris on EWTN’s part.
Rodda, follow your own advice. Get the log out of your own eye.
Read GIRM. Your posted advice is: ” Please start to follow what the Church actually teaches and directs and not your ego. ”
GIRM is on the Vatican web site. No one posting here wrote the “General Instruction of the Roman Missal”.
wrong…the kiss of peace is bad news my friend…at my parish we NEVAH have it!
Adamantine, does your church go right from the Lord’s Prayer to the Lamb of God? Isn’t that tampering with the Mass by removing part of it? I don’t see why people get so upset about this. You also complain about altar girls. It seems like some here dislike altar girls. Do they allow them in your parish or do they tell girls that want to serve on the altar to go join another church?
The sign of peace – as you know it – Rodda is not a requirement.
It is up to the Bishop.
Read GIRM.
In the case of EWTN, they got their permission directly from Pope John Paul II.
The sign of peace, R.B., is OPTIONAL. Several priests in my area do not use it.
Altar girls are also OPITIONAL. Several churches in my area do not use them, and I think that is just fine and prefer it.
Msgr. Annibale Bugnini, (14 June 1912 – 3 July 1982) was a Roman Catholic prelate and the main person behind the introduction of the Novus Ordo Missae. One of his most famous quotes (L’Osservatore Romano, 19 March 1965) is the following:
“We must strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren that is for the Protestants.”
Speaking about the Good Friday intercessions.
And why is this bad? The scandal is in that the Lord’s Church is divided, and has rmained so despite the wishes of both the contemporary pope, the Counsel of Trent, and Martin Luther himself.
If we get to a more essential Mass, a return to a more basic liturgy more similar to that which the earliest churches celebrated, why is that bad?
I DO get that liturgy progressed through the ages. Things changed and evolved, and that there is much beauty in the liturgies that followed on in later generations.
But THINK for a moment. If there were such a thing as a GIRM in 75 AD, which forbade any alteration in the liturgy, we would have NEVER gotten to the TLM in the first place. LIkely we’d not even gotten close to the NO. So when you all think that there is some magic to the formulae of the Mass done at a particular point in history, it conceals the fact that all of these masses are complete and full expressions of the Holy catholic Faith. And if the result of favoring one of them over others results in the reunification of the Christian ecclesial communities into the Church, and the elimination of the ongoing scandal of separation, well then, maybe it’s a Very Good Thing after all.
YFC – GIRM can be changed, but not by individual Priests or individual Bishops. It can be changed only by the Magisterium – the Pope and those Bishops in communion with him.
The goal should never be to protestantize the Catholic Faith but bring others into the one true Faith of Christ’s Church.
In the past 40 or 50 years many Catholics have left the Faith because they lost sight that the Catholic Church is the one true Faith, and the only Church with the Real Presence -Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist.
CCC: ” 1206 Liturgical diversity can be a source of enrichment, but it can also provoke tensions, mutual misunderstandings, and even schisms.
In this matter it is clear that diversity must not damage unity.
It must express only fidelity to the common faith, to the sacramental signs that the Church has received from Christ, and to hierarchical communion.
Cultural adaptation also requires a conversion of heart and even, where necessary, a breaking with ancestral customs incompatible with the Catholic faith. “
YFC, the Church is only divided due to SIN and DISOBEDIENCE to the Magisterium.
Pete, Dear Pete, the CCC did not exist before the second vatican counsel. Besides that technical point, no one is asking individual priests to change the mass. This is not what happenned at Vatican 2, except for the reliance even in the GIRM upon “local custom”. The point is this: Separation is a scandal and we ought to do whatever we can to remove the scandal of separation. And if that means returning to a more ancient form of valid worship, then maybe we ought to take that path. It’s a judgement call. The answer cannot be found within the CCC.
Louis, I agree with you that the Church is divided due to Sin. So let us examine ourselves and make assure that we are not part of that Sin.
Louis in order for anyone to be obedient to the Magisterium they must first have a loving relationship with our Lord, they must fear the Lord with all their hearts.
More conspiracy theory, Anton? ;)
Yes R.B. Rodda the Church had a wonderful Novus Ordo Mass in 1965. The first English version which was a faithful translation of the Tridentine Mass. Perhaps you have forgotten or not experienced it.
https://www.coreyzelinski.8m.com/1965_Mass/
Just the first few sentences tells you this is Catholic and helps to prepare you for a slice of heaven on earth.
P: In the Name of the Father, + and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.
I will go to the altar of God.
S: To God Who gives joy to my youth.
P: Our help is in the Name of the Lord.
S: Who made heaven and earth.
Of course the Church had the authority to create another Rite. However once the modernists protestanized the Mass with their novelties by 1969 and the ICEL displayed their lack of schoolboy Latin in the translation did you really have a Mass more pleasing to God.
I think good Catholics would benefit from reading this piece I saw elsewhere.
“I’m a cradle Catholic, thanks to my mother. I started in the “old” Church. Yes, Sister Mary had a ruler and used it effectively. We learned the Baltimore Catechism. We went to Mass, first in Latin, then in English. We took the change in stride and never gave it much thought. Rome had spoken, case closed. Cradle Catholics understand that.
We understood the authority of Rome. We understood the Mass as the Sacrifice of Calvary, whether in Latin or English. We trusted that the essentials were still there. And if nothing was missing, why hearken for Latin?
Something Changed
Did you ever go back to visit your old neighborhood, and noticed it’s not the same? It’s changed, and you’ve changed, too. This happened to me with regard to the Church. I left and returned, Deo gratias, and saw that something had changed. Not at first, mind you, but after some looking around. You might be familiar with the drill. One parish has guitar Masses, so you go to a conservative parish. But some funny stuff there impels you to find a more conservative parish. You eventually settle, but never quite feel at home.
While running “the drill” of parish hopping, I met some persons who invited me to a Latin Mass. “Halleluiah,” I hollered … well, not exactly. Funny to say, but I hadn’t yet come upon the “new Mass” versus “old Mass” debate. A Latin Mass just meant Mass in Latin, right? Little did I know that I was about to walk back into my childhood, back to the first grade.
If you haven’t been to a Tridentine Mass, be sure to prepare before you go. “Prepare?,” you might ask. For what? I know the Mass: Gloria, creed, offertory, Eucharistic prayer, communion, and final blessing. I knew that, too, but it wasn’t enough. I tried to follow the Mass, but fell behind sometimes. Some of my first-grade training sustained me. For example, I recognized the response Et cum spiritu tuo. That always sounded like somebody’s phone number to me. Even if you prepare, it can be hard to follow, as my wife found out at her first Latin Mass.
The Latin Mass I attended was extraordinary. That is to say, beyond the ordinary. It’s like nothing you’ll find at your local parish. While the old Mass wasn’t totally foreign to me, the difference from the new was striking. The loftiness, the prayers, the precision … I could go on, but others have described the Mass better than I could. There is one thing, however, that let me know I had arrived home. Ad orientem? No. Communion rail? No, smaller. It was that tiny veil on top of the ciborium. I saw how Father flicked his wrist to clear the veil before covering the ciborium. It’s not in the rubrics; it’s something passed on from priest to priest. I saw that, and twenty-five years were bridged in an instant.
So for me, attending the Latin Mass is nostalgic, right? Maybe to a degree. But more than being nostalgic, I have a first-hand perspective of before and after. And I choose the old, but not because of a warm, fuzzy feeling.
“Unless every man keep whole and inviolate …”
St. Athanasius, the great Doctor and Patriarch, suffered terribly to preserve the ancient Faith for us. His faith is preserved in a creed of the Church bearing his name. In the Athanasian Creed we hear the warning, “Whosoever desires to be saved, above all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith which, unless every man keep whole and inviolate, without doubt he will perish forever.” We don’t hear words like that very often. The modern approach is much softer, gentler. But the words must be true because the Church cannot deceive us.
It’s the “whole and inviolate” part that comes to mind here. I see a stark contrast between the Latin Mass and the new Mass. How, then, do I reconcile that contrast with “whole and inviolate?” To me, the solution is simple. The Latin Mass has the visible continuity over more than a millennium. It is necessarily “whole and inviolate.” There is no need to look any further.
So for me, attending the Latin Mass preserves the Faith and continuity with the past. Could I survive at the new Mass? Probably. But it’s not just about me. I was weaned on the old Mass, a solid foundation. What about my children?
“If his son shall ask bread …”
Our Lord used these words to illustrate the graciousness of His Father. What man would hand his son a stone? Now that I have sons I appreciate Our Lord’s lesson. If I raise lukewarm Catholics, the Judge will call on me. I might have to explain why we went to the local parish. Oy vey!
Raising children Catholic today isn’t easy. You can’t trust modern catechetical material, but that’s an issue for another article. So you take charge of teaching it yourself. You teach them to pray, with the family Rosary, for example. And you take them to Church. But where?
The final and decisive reason why I go to the Latin Mass is to hand solid food to my children. There they will receive their inheritance, “whole and inviolate.” I have no worry that they’ll get the wrong impression of Catholic worship. Mass is serious work, and that is always evident at the Latin Mass. They’ll get a foretaste of Heaven that will, please God, lead them safely home.”
Please pray for priests that the Holy Spirit will inspire and give them strength to teach the Catholic Faith in their homilies for the salvation of souls.
Gerard, thank you for posting this. I have a newer copy of the 1963 Missal that I bought a few years ago, but the link you posted has the same lofty and beautiful English prayers as in mine but without all the “thees” and “thous”. I really love it.
I didn’t read past the first two sentences of your response but if you are trying to infer the EF Mass is “better” than the OF Mass I’ll simply say that the Catholic Church disagrees with you.
Your contempt for the E.F form of the Mass is clearly evident, your hate for those love the EF is obvious
Please don’t lie.
My contempt rests with those who continue to try and sell their belief that the EF Mass is somehow “better” than the OF Mass when that is NOT what the Church teaches.
Neither Mass is better than the other. Both are Holy.
Ditto! when they are according to the rubrics. Of course, some priests make mistakes at times. They are human. There should be allowances for that, and I would not complain to a bishop over minor things. Talk charitable to a priest first if you are upset, and find out why he does it. Even if he is wrong, if it is just minor, it is best to ignore it, unless things get worse.
“I didn’t read past the first two sentences of your response… ” So much for intellectual honesty.
“So much for intellectual honesty.” Bravo gravey! That truly sums it up.
Taken fromWiki/answers on Intellectual Dishonesty
“intellectual dishonesty often refers to lying to oneself — it is “intellectual” in the sense of a perversion of the intellect, a violation of standards of rational evaluation.”
Catherine, ok, what does that mean?
RB Rodda: Which Catholic church are you referring to? The Roman Catholic Church that existed before the second Vatican council, or the Church of the Aggiornamento that was promulgated to catch up with all the modern heretical claptrap so steadfastly resisted by all previous popes? The seeds of schism were sown by Vatican 2. We are no longer one church. The anchor chain has been broken; we are adrift in a sea of moral relativism.
I believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
It’s “the Catholic Church.”
The “Roman Catholic Church” only correctly describes the Western Half of the Church.
Your ignorant comment is one reason why the different Eastern Catholic churches struggle as members of the Catholic Church.
I won’t even address your Vatican II conspiracy theory.
If you did believe…then you would understand them…
absolutely…I attend a novus ordo mass at my parish, with NO kiss of peace…it is reverent and edifying always…all parishioners receive holy communion at the altar rail and on the tongue…no guitars or drums, or screwy protestant hymns…all catholic, with pipe organ and reverent catholic hymns…aaaaaaah
you attend Holy Mass.
Gerard, thank you for sharing your experience and memories. Too bad Rodda decided not to read beyond the “first two sentences”. Anyway, I have never heard, even from older Catholics who were raised with the Latin Mass, that the original Mass in the vernacular was essentially the Latin Mass translated in the vernacular of English without the thees and thous. It was probably so short lived that most have simply forgotten this. I would give anything to assist at such a Mass. (Of course, only if it was available in the Roman Catholic Church)
In 1965 the change from Latin to English would have been natural since everyone except the illiterate would have already recognized the Mass in English since one already knew the English translation from his missal.
Actually, my Missal is the 1962. Why or why did they not keep this beautiful translation of the post Vatican II Mass. Why or why did they change it to the elementary school version? I believe we should give our very best to God, even in language, and this certainly is it.
I was referring to Gerard’s post on June 22 at 6:39 pm. The beautiful translation I was referring to was the 1965 translation of the Latin into English. Somehow my post got lost in all these other posts. Mostly likely because I hit the wrong reply link. Sorry folks!
Tambourines are another way of ruining the Mass.
The EF mass is only available to very few. In Los Angeles, we have to drive 50 miles to reach one although at least the entire way is paved. In most of Latin America the EF mass is not even available. The USA comparatively is in a better position. However, our OF mass has become Protestant-like after the Vatican Council II Reformation. With the emancipated masses of Pope Francis we can expect this process to accelerate. In my parish the priest stopped genuflecting at consecration the day after Pope Francis started bowing.
There should be at least one Sunday Extraordinary Form (Latin EF), at every Catholic Parish.
If there is enough interest (perhaps through a petition) talk to your Pastor. Otherwise go to your Bishop.
There is enough space, time and love for all Parishes to have both forms of the Mass.
Ann, even if every parish had enough parishioners interested in the EF Mass, I do not believe that currently there would be sufficient priest available who would know how to celebrate it. I am sure the rubrics could be easily learned with some practice, but the Latin would be a huge obstacle. I myself know a few priest who want to offer the EF Mass but so far find it too difficult for them. I wouldn’t doubt it, however, that some priest are studying the Latin and in due time they may be ready.
There seems to be very little demand for the EF Mass in most parts of the US.
The second the Mass becomes man centered instead of GOD centered, the Mass becomes a Protestant meal service. At Calvary, the focus was on Our dying Lord, and not on the mob. At the TLM the focus is on the altar, with the priest offering sacrifice. In the Eastern rite Divine Liturgy, the focus is ALSO on the priest. It is only until the Protestant Reformation did the focus change from the priest to the congregation.The above is an excellent article. As a priest, because of what has happened in the Church, I can tell you, few priests have ANY authority as to how the Mass is to be celebrated because of the Nazi liturgists. These terrorists demand that participation is most important along with community. Until the Vatican punishes those who tamper with the sacredness of the Mass, these abuses will continue.
THANK YOU FATHER KARL – your post says it all.
QUOTE: ” The second the Mass becomes man centered instead of GOD centered, the Mass becomes a Protestant meal service.
At Calvary, the focus was on Our dying Lord, and not on the mob.
At the TLM the focus is on the altar, with the priest offering sacrifice.
In the Eastern rite Divine Liturgy, the focus is ALSO on the priest.
It is only until the Protestant Reformation did the focus change from the priest to the congregation.
The above is an excellent article.
As a priest, because of what has happened in the Church, I can tell you, few priests have ANY authority as to how the Mass is to be celebrated because of the Nazi liturgists. These terrorists demand that participation is most important along with community.
Until the Vatican punishes those who tamper with the sacredness of the Mass, these abuses will continue. ” UNQUOTE
All us Laity can do is insist that Priests who say the Ordinary Form of the Mass say it properly according to Church requirements (GIRM), and report abuses to the Bishop.
If the Bishop does nothing we can report it to the US Papal Nuncio and the Vatican.
And we can only hope that the Vatican does not approve any more special INDULTS to the USCCB that makes the Mass even less God centered.
(Indults are special permission to change something.)
Prior to the Council Mass attendence in the USA was at 75% that is a proven fact, beleif in the real presence wast at 85%, convents, seminaries, parochial schools, were packed. God only knows how many churches, convents, seminaries have been shutted since Vatican II.
As adults how can you sit in a pew and watch giant puppets, dancing girls in leotards, altar girls, lay lectors, drums, guitars, banjos, communion in the hand, kissing each other and touching each other during the kiss of peace, and not be sickend and feel like a child not acting like an adult. This is called paganism not the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I could never understand how you could sit in that pew and not ask the priest what the hell are you doing???
Janek, have you actually been at a Mass where there were giant puppets and dancing girls in leotards? I never have been and I haven’t missed Mass in decades.
It has happened at some churches, Mark PA. Not in my area but it has been photographed on line when people who have had to suffer through it have complained. There was a priest, I think in Southern California, who let the organist, Extraordinary Ministers and others dress up in costumes during Halloween, including a witch and devil costume. I think another had a Barney Mass for children also. There are some churches that have schools where they have the children dress in Saints costumes in the hall and on the grounds for All Hallows (Halloween) or All Saints Day, and that is far more appropriate and fun for the children, and the party is in the hall.
I should have said “appropriate” not “far more appropriate” as the other was not appropriate at a Mass at all.
By the way, Saints costumes for children can be bought on line, or one can make his/her own. Some such costumes can be made from clothing that one already has on hand at times if one does not do or have the time to do much sewing. Just look up pictures of the Saints and use you imagination.
You can’t judge the Holy Mass by one pastor’s bad Halloween decision.
I have seen dancing girls….yes…and hand puppets were used…though i never saw it…these things have and do exist in today’s church, where modernism abounds….
Mark, I do not recall having been to a Mass with puppets, but I have attended at least 10 Masses which had “dancing girls in leotards” dancing down the isles and up on the altar. You really need to spend some time in California since you give me the impression that you doubt much of what is posted on this site.
FIVE WAYS TO RUIN THE MASS:
1. look for things to complain about.
2. be critical of your neighbors.
3. keep an eye on the priest so you can quickly jot down things to share with the bishop.
4. long for the “good old days” which you complained about when you were in the midst of them.
5. instead of worshipping God, focus on being disappointed with the music, the architecture, the quality of lectors, the behavior of little babies, and human beings in general.
Rodda, you still have not read GIRM – required by the Church (not anyone posting on this site.)
Shaking hands or not is a decision of the Diocese Bishop.
Shaking hands instead of worshipping the Lord is merely a distraction.
Keep Holy the Lord’s Day.
Just look at this thread. The comments from the faith inspectors are absolutely repugnant:
* Someone has to bring up Annibale Bugnini. Que the Twilight Zone theme.
* People actually obsessed about the Sign of Peace. Happy that their parish does not celebrate it. Are they unable to correctly comport themselves? Do they lack formation?
* Someone had to mention “holding hands.” The Church does not prohibit the practice, people can’t force you to hold hands yet whining about it is a fetish for many faith inspectors.
* Negative comments about “altar girls” and “lay lectors” (both which are formally allowed worldwide by the Church.)
* Suggesting the EF Mass is “better” than the OF Mass.
* Referring to the entire Catholic Church as the “Roman Catholic Church.” Have the faith inspectors never visited an Eastern Catholic parish?
I could go on and on and on! I’m beginning to wonder if the faith inspectors on this forum are actually Catholic? They put their egos and their personal tastes ahead of what the Church ACTUALLY teaches and directs. Sad to watch…
I agree with you. These arguments are silly. Focus on the Real Presence and it will matter not if the people next to you are using the Orans position.
Annonymous,
I REPEAT, WHY SHOULD WE LISTEN TO A COWARD WHO WON’T EVEN USE HIS OR HER NAME WHEN THEY WRITE!
Viva Cristo Rey!
May God Have Mercy On America!
Kenneth M. Fisher
Please stop lying. I have indeed read/studied the GIRM.
The Sign of Peace is indeed optional. It’s sad that some parishes do not have the grace to practice it.
It’s even sadder to see those speaking about their NO Sign of Peace fetish and how they obsess about it.
Good comments Peter
Peter, are you saying that the Church (Pope) has no authority on the rubrics of the Mass ?
And that each Priest and each person should be doing their own willy nilly thing?
You have never read GIRM either or you would know that the Faithful should not do anything to draw attention to themselves.
Being a distraction is not appropriate.
Human beings should respect God enough to act like they are attending at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in the Real Presence of Our Lord, not at a sporting event.
Worshipping God does not include misbehaving. You should give your full attention to God. For some people this only happens on Sunday.
Keep Holy the Lord’s Day.
Irritated and Annoyed Faith Inspector # 5,
You are not loving your neighbor. You have chosen for many years to worship at the altar of anything goes…. that is until someone upholds *all* of the teachings of the Catholic Church. You are NOT Peter and upon that 8:41 am post God did not build his Church. We certainly do NOT show love for our neighbors if we consistently teach or consistently imply that the only great sins are reverence and faithfulness to *all* of the teachings of the Catholic Church. (*especially* the ones regarding sexual morality. )
John 15:10 ” If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father’ s commandments, and do abide in his love. ”
Second Epistle of St. Paul to the Thessalonians
Chapter 2: [14] “Therefore, brethren, *stand fast; and hold the traditions* which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. [15] Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace.” …Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible
Excellent comments Catherine. Thank you, God bless you!
Thank you Abeca! : )
I give up! What the blazes does it all mean?
“I give up! ”
What the blazes does it all mean?
It means you are traveling the broad road. It means, quitters of the Catholic faith, say things like, “I give up” and due to habitual sin, they become blinded and they often cave in to accepting and teaching heresy and the “blazes” part that you mentioned, it means you spend your eternity in the blazing fires of hell if you continue to mock God and the teachings of his Church.
I didn’t quit the Catholic faith. I gave up trying to figure out who faith inspector #5 was and why you blasted them. I did not mock God or the teachings of the Church either. Are you projecting?
Peter, if you have never done at least one of these things, you are not human. Now admit it. You have.
It was regarding your post, Peter, at 8:41 am.
Anne T., I have indeed done ALL of these things, which is how I know it can ruin one’s experience of Mass.
Now, I try to get my spirit into a better place when I attend Mass, so I don’t come away distracted, angry, and frustrated.
Even if the homily is bad, the music is annoying, and the sign of peace goes on forever…
I see your point now, Peter, so do I.
here’s another way to ruin the mass…worship like a protestant, clap, hold hands, have a bunch of cross-talk, dress immodestly, use drums and guitars in lieu of pipe organ, sing protestant hymns…and everyone receive communion on the hand, standing up…oh yeah, let’s have plenty of altar girls in tennis shoes on the altar…have i left anything out?
Love
fish…atheist’s love…pornographer’s and drug dealers even have love…so do people in mortal sin…people love sex…the things of this world…my faith is predicated on “loving” the things that bring me closer to God…the holy sacraments…especially the Eucharist…this I love…I do not love modernism, heresy, ecumenism, nor protestantism, I love the Holy and Blessed Trinity…have I cleared up all ambiguity?
You should also love those whom God loves.
not everyone’s definition of love is from God. You want to know what is true Love….JESUS!
JESUS……..just the mention of His Holy Name says it all and spells LOVE! (Charity)
God is love. Jesus is love.
When one mentions God….we are already mentioning Jesus and the Holy Ghost…..they are one in 3. Abba our Father God, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost…all in one.
When we prompt the Holy Ghost for help….we have all 3. Our Father who art in heaven….we are including all 3 the Holy Trinity…..ONE!
I hope I conveyed well….
Admantine, I have got to tell you that not ALL Protestants are immodest, not the Amish and many others. (Lots of laughs.) In fact I have seen groups of Protestants going through California that were dressed like early Americans if you know what they looked like. They are even more modest than the Traditionalist Catholics here, because the women wear bonnets all the time that cover their hair completely when outdoors with dresses up to their necks and down to their shoe tops, sleeves down to their wrists and no open shoes. How is that for modest? They are rare, but they do exist.
Obedience requires us all to adhere to “General Instruction of the Roman Missal” (GIRM) as approved by the Magisterium (and posted on the Vatican web site).
For information on the Liturgy see: CCC: 1066 through 1112.
CCC: ” 1111 Christ’s work in the liturgy is sacramental: because his mystery of salvation is made present there by the power of his Holy Spirit; because his Body, which is the Church, is like a sacrament (sign and instrument) in which the Holy Spirit dispenses the mystery of salvation; and because through her liturgical actions the pilgrim Church already participates, as by a foretaste, in the heavenly liturgy. ”
Those who violate GIRM from the Magisterium sin against the Unity of the Church.
It is our duty to perform Spiritual Works of Mercy which include: “Admonishing Sinners, Instructing the Uniformed, Counseling the Doubtful”.
(You may be saving the Soul of a wayward Priest and others who follow him.)
The same is true of the Extraordinary Form of the Mass (Latin). They must adhere to the 1962 Missal or they sin against Unity.
Code of Canon Law: ” THE OBLIGATIONS AND RIGHTS OF ALL THE CHRISTIAN FAITHFUL –
212 §3. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church
and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful,
without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals,
with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons. “
The very first post by “MAC” is correct.
Anonymo, every one of your posts is incorrect. No matter what you say, it is false.
Nothing in the CCC or Canon Law about the word, “adhere”. It is becoming evident that this word is being hijacked into Catholic theology, sort of on a parallel as the word, “inappropriate” has been hijacked into the political, legal and school systems in the public sphere.
Obedience may have its requirements, but Jesus has His; so pays your money and takes your choice.
Regarding percussion – does anyone feel as I do, that the best use of a tambourine is as a necklace for one who would use one during a Mass ?
It goes quite far beyond annoyance when the so-called “Music Ministry” is allowed to dominate. It has its place in the liturgy, as long as the re-presentation of the Sacrifice at Calvary isn’t tuned into an early 1960’s Hootenanny. That happens all too often, and it has been allowed for far too long.
Read GIRM for info on what and how music is supposed to take place during Mass.
GIRM covers everything on requirements for Mass.
Some may be surprised that their Priests are not behaving properly or are allowing others to misbehave.
Now, now, Ted, let’s not hang our fellow parishioners lest we break one of the Commandments. Although, tambourines are not “my cup of tea” unless the music is outside of Mass, they did use them in the Temple service in Christ’s day and age since they did not even have organs or pianos back then.
We can split hairs on this one for years. The content of the Mass will never make everybody happy. We just have to roll with the changes as best we can. For this Catholic, today’s Mass is awful noisy, thanks to music directors who fill every non-priest pause in the action with music, music, music. Whatever happened to some silence, especially during Communion?
I most certainly agree with your post – where I live in SoCal, many of the Sunday Masses are not reverent. The musicians have taken their role too seriously and feel the need to totally dominate the whole service – they have the volume up way too loudly and are playing music EVERY minute just about. Quite frankly I am in church to celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass; I am not there to listen to a concert! Music should have a spiritual quality about it which helps us to feel closer to God. We need to bring back the beautiful Gregorian chants as you will find in the Masses at the Cathedral in Wash. D.C. Participation at Mass should make one feel as if one were a short distance from heaven and not at a Western hoedown.
– , Good point. But the Gregorian Chant can be used to overwhelm the priest also. If I were in charge of the electro-magnetic technology, I’d hit the “off” button. One effect of this would be to put the congregation on notice to keep silent. Also I’d remove the kneelers which people irreverently slam up and down. Moreover, I’d revert to making the catechumens stay in the vestibule.
What a fine response. To all the organ grinders, clown-iacs, and groovy wanna be, the msg from the body of Christ is conformity Quoting St. Paul is a side track, yes God gave us St. Paul to question and perhaps to confuse, but we also were given St. Peter to interpret and decide, St. Peter resides still in the person of the Holy Father Francis.
Rodda asserts that the LA Cathedral “does a tremendously good job of putting the Eucharist on display and making it the focus of all those in attendance.” Hmm. Must be because we are all afraid of a divinely sent earthquake to topple this monstrosity down on us as we gaze on. In this sense “it doth wonderfully compose the mind.” As for the now handy brickbat of “faith inspectors”, it is interesting how this is being focused on trad Catholics. I have had my faith inspected (and convicted of wrongdoing) by a thousand more New Church types than by the trads.
Isn’t this article itself an inspection of the faith practice of those leading the liturgy? Oh-oh.
Are we not supposed to have our faith inspected? Isn’t that the way we convey it to the faithless?
One parish is well known in our diocese for using the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to become man-centered by asking each volunteering group to stand up and receive thunderous applause from the congregation during Mass. The intention is to embarrass the perceived slackers vs. showcasing the volunteers. Sadly, the pastor does not realize that this looks like another taping of the Hollywood game show called, “The Price is Right.” C’mon down and win your prize! Instead of using that very sacred and holy one hour to completely unite and focus attention on the preparation and re-enactment of Calvary and the ultimate price that Christ paid for suffering and redeeming us for our collective sins, for the right price you can remove the focus away from Jesus to pat someone’s pride. Yes, for the right amount of volunteer hours, you can shamefully purchase attention away from focusing on the Redeemer of all mankind. It IS astonishingly distorted in the dismissing of the priority that should first and only be given to God for that “ONE” hour. Many do this because they have never been taught not to do this. Many do this because they deliberately want to focus on worshipping each other. When a “community” worships itself more than appreciating, obeying and loving God, then the ” so called community” is placing itself above God as their own gods to be honored and adored. Why should fallen natured human beings obey Church teaching or honor and obey the Real God made man when clergy members are unknowingly or willingly dismissing the importance of “can you not watch one hour with me”? Modern day apostles are stroking the insatiably hungry egos of a fallen world that is truly more starved for the knowledge and the healing power that only a Redeeming God can bring. The “community” did not Redeem us! God Redeemed us and God ALONE deserves that GRATITUDE and RESPECT for watching one hour with Him at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
Can you imagine if the apostles, besides falling asleep and on top of not watching for one hour with Christ, in the Garden of Gethsemane, when Christ stated that his soul was sorrowful even unto death, had they also turned their attention, their focus and their gratitude away from the All Redeeming Christ on Calvary to then call out the names of each of the individual apostles to personally recognize how many volunteers hours that each apostle worked in the last town that they visited? Excuse me while I ignore you Jesus, “Let’s give a big round of applause for doubting Thomas, for Matthew and Mark and Luke who volunteered quite a few travel hours and spoke on our behalf (not on Jesus’s behalf) in the last towns that they visited. ” This would have also shown an astonishing disregard and lack of understanding and gratitude for Jesus and the preparation of his sacrificial death on Calvary, yet his own modern day apostles do this time and time again to Him.
The Gospel of Matthew 26: [36] Then Jesus came with them into a country place which is called Gethsemani; and he said to his disciples: Sit you here, till I go yonder and pray. [37] And taking with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, he began to grow sorrowful and to be sad. [38] Then he saith to them: My soul is sorrowful even unto death: stay you here, and watch with me. [39] And going a little further, he fell upon his face, praying, and saying: My Father, if it be possible, let this chalice pass from me. Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. [40] And he cometh to his disciples, and findeth them asleep, and he saith to Peter: What? Could you not watch one hour with me.”
What is sad is peoples’ personal opinions. These opinions do not matter.
No one made anyone posting God, or made them the Magisterium.
Everyone attending an OF Mass must adhere to GIRM.
Everyone attending an EF Mass must adhere to the 1962 Missal.
End of Subject.
If there are abuses at any Mass we need to do whatever we can to get them corrected.
Everything people are complaining about in this thread all seem to be violations of GIRM, and yet they continue to complain without taking appropriate action.
So blame yourselves.
Note it is clear that a few people posting on this site are not Catholics.
They want Catholic money used to promote sinful purposes. And they encourage irreverent Masses.
(They could even be members of the Free-Masons.)
Interesting observations OSCAR about the Free Masons comment….now as for your other comments..I hope you agree with Catherine…she is spot on right. You say people saying their personal opinions…fine but you have to agree that some actually are speaking from wisdom and knowledge on this topic….
Thank you sweet sister in Christ! I know that OSCAR will value the entire 12:03pm CCC Second Edition post because OSCAR truly values fidelity to all Church teaching. OSCAR is a true brother in Christ.
CCC Second Edition
The Disorder of Covetous Desires
“We fight one another, and envy arms us against one another. . . . If everyone strives to unsettle the Body of Christ, where shall we end up? We are engaged in making Christ’s Body a corpse. . . . We declare ourselves members of one and the same organism, yet we devour one another like beasts.326
2539 Envy is a capital sin. It refers to the sadness at the sight of another’s goods and the immoderate desire to acquire them for oneself, even unjustly. When it wishes grave harm to a neighbor it is a mortal sin: St. Augustine saw envy as “the diabolical sin.”327 “From envy are born hatred, detraction, calumny, joy caused by the misfortune of a neighbor, and displeasure caused by his prosperity.”328
2540 Envy represents a form of sadness and therefore a refusal of charity; the baptized person should struggle against it by exercising good will. Envy often comes from pride; the baptized person should train himself to live in humility: Would you like to see God glorified by you? Then rejoice in your brother’s progress and you will immediately give glory to God. Because his servant could conquer envy by rejoicing in the merits of others, God will be praised.329”
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SECOND EDITION
PART THREE
LIFE IN CHRIST
SECTION TWO
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
CHAPTER TWO
“YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF”
ARTICLE 10
THE TENTH COMMANDMENT
You shall not covet . . . anything that is your neighbor’s. . . . You shall not desire your neighbor’s house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor’s.317
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.318
2534 The tenth commandment unfolds and completes the ninth, which is concerned with concupiscence of the flesh. It forbids coveting the goods of another, as the root of theft, robbery, and fraud, which the seventh commandment forbids. “Lust of the eyes” leads to the violence and injustice forbidden by the fifth commandment.319 Avarice, like fornication, originates in the idolatry prohibited by the first three prescriptions of the Law.320 The tenth commandment concerns the intentions of the heart; with the ninth, it summarizes all the precepts of the Law.
I. THE DISORDER OF COVETOUS DESIRES
2535 The sensitive appetite leads us to desire pleasant things we do not have, e.g., the desire to eat when we are hungry or to warm ourselves when we are cold. These desires are good in themselves; but often they exceed the limits of reason and drive us to covet unjustly what is not ours and belongs to another or is owed to him.
2536 The tenth commandment forbids greed and the desire to amass earthly goods without limit. It forbids avarice arising from a passion for riches and their attendant power. It also forbids the desire to commit injustice by harming our neighbor in his temporal goods:
When the Law says, “You shall not covet,” these words mean that we should banish our desires for whatever does not belong to us. Our thirst for another’s goods is immense, infinite, never quenched. Thus it is written: “He who loves money never has money enough.”321
2537 It is not a violation of this commandment to desire to obtain things that belong to one’s neighbor, provided this is done by just means. Traditional catechesis realistically mentions “those who have a harder struggle against their criminal desires” and so who “must be urged the more to keep this commandment”:
. . . merchants who desire scarcity and rising prices, who cannot bear not to be the only ones buying and selling so that they themselves can sell more dearly and buy more cheaply; those who hope that their peers will be impoverished, in order to realize a profit either by selling to them or buying from them . . . physicians who wish disease to spread; lawyers who are eager for many important cases and trials.322
2538 The tenth commandment requires that envy be banished from the human heart. When the prophet Nathan wanted to spur King David to repentance, he told him the story about the poor man who had only one ewe lamb that he treated like his own daughter and the rich man who, despite the great number of his flocks, envied the poor man and ended by stealing his lamb.323 Envy can lead to the worst crimes.324 “Through the devil’s envy death entered the world”:325
We fight one another, and envy arms us against one another. . . . If everyone strives to unsettle the Body of Christ, where shall we end up? We are engaged in making Christ’s Body a corpse. . . . We declare ourselves members of one and the same organism, yet we devour one another like beasts.326
2539 Envy is a capital sin. It refers to the sadness at the sight of another’s goods and the immoderate desire to acquire them for oneself, even unjustly. When it wishes grave harm to a neighbor it is a mortal sin:
St. Augustine saw envy as “the diabolical sin.”327 “From envy are born hatred, detraction, calumny, joy caused by the misfortune of a neighbor, and displeasure caused by his prosperity.”328
2540 Envy represents a form of sadness and therefore a refusal of charity; the baptized person should struggle against it by exercising good will. Envy often comes from pride; the baptized person should train himself to live in humility:
Would you like to see God glorified by you? Then rejoice in your brother’s progress and you will immediately give glory to God. Because his servant could conquer envy by rejoicing in the merits of others, God will be praised.329
II. THE DESIRES OF THE SPIRIT
2541 The economy of law and grace turns men’s hearts away from avarice and envy. It initiates them into desire for the Sovereign Good; it instructs them in the desires of the Holy Spirit who satisfies man’s heart.
The God of the promises always warned man against seduction by what from the beginning has seemed “good for food . . . a delight to the eyes . . . to be desired to make one wise.”330
2542 The Law entrusted to Israel never sufficed to justify those subject to it; it even became the instrument of “lust.”331 The gap between wanting and doing points to the conflict between God’s Law which is the “law of my mind,” and another law “making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members.”
OSCAR, when you keep whining and ranting that individual opinions do not matter, you are insulting God Who gives individuals their own unique identities repleat with their own opinions.
Skai, your personal opinions – do not matter on a “Catholic” blog site.
The true teachings of the Church matter.
Catherine,
“One parish is well known in our diocese for using the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to become man-centered by asking each volunteering group to stand up and receive thunderous applause from the congregation during Mass.” That is definitely abuse of the Rubrics! Have you reported this to your bishop? Would your bishop even care?
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
(from Church of our Savior weekly newsletter)
June 23, 2013
by Fr. George W. Rutler
Any young man called to the priesthood must be like St. Paul: “It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me” (Galatians 2:20). This is true of all Christians. Cupio dissolvi — “I wish to disappear.” Dioceses that understand this excel in vocations, and those that do not, fail.
When I arrived at this parish, there were many liturgical abuses. Let it not be said that these were the predilections of young people, for there were practically none then. Rather, they had become the habit of older people who had simply shifted from perfunctorily expedited Masses and a few sentimental hymns to the fabricated folk Masses of the 1960’s. I put a stop to the habit of applauding the organist and choir. The musicians we have now would be embarrassed by such behavior. Pope Benedict XVI said: “Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment.”
There is even a danger of that same narcissism when attempts at a “reform of the reform” become self-conscious spectacle. Evelyn Waugh said that Anthony Eden was not a gentleman because he dressed too well. We try to offer the best to God, but we must not be fussy about it like the nouveau riche. It once was said that dowagers in Boston did not buy hats, they had hats. C. S. Lewis’ view was that true worship should be like a good old shoe, so comfortable that you don’t have to break it in: “The perfect church service would be one we were almost unaware of; our attention would have been on God.” That is a sensibility I have long admired in the Byzantine liturgies. While some speak of the High Mass of the Western Church as the “most beautiful thing this side of Heaven,” I know of nothing so formally transcendent and still so informally natural as the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.
The constant fidgeting for “theme liturgies” and experimentation is a sign of failure. Worse yet is the priest who solicits laughter like a ham actor in a dying vaudeville show. Such clerics should limit their repertoire to the jokes that St. John told the Blessed Mother as her Son bled on the Cross. One is struck by the way Pope Francis, in his personal simplicity and affability, is so enrapt in the solemnity of the Mass that he would not think of smiling through the Sacrifice of Calvary.
It may seem that reform of abuses is as futile as King Canute ordering the tide to roll back. Actually, that great king was showing his court that human pride has no authority over what does not belong to him. That is why he placed his own crown on a figure of Christ Crucified, and that is what true worship is all about.
Father George Rutler is a convert from Episcopalianism. He was also the first priest at the site of 911 and he RIGHTLY gave General Absolution to those who were about to die!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Fr. Rutler apparently was prepared for death as well as life, and the sudden catastrophe evidently did not phase him from his Godly mission. I can see that in him simply from having listened to a number of his EWTN radio lessons years ago. We all should be prepared for death at any moment, at least according to Jesus if He can be believed. With eternity always on our minds, hearts, and souls and charity in our step, we should be able to handle any event as God would will us to, and without going all bananas and wacko, like the gays are always preparing society to do.
Dana,
Excellent post dear sister in Christ! Thank you for Father George Rutler’s words!
“The constant fidgeting for “theme liturgies” and experimentation is a sign of failure. Worse yet is the priest who solicits laughter like a ham actor in a dying vaudeville show. Such clerics should limit their repertoire to the jokes that St. John told the Blessed Mother as her Son bled on the Cross. One is struck by the way Pope Francis, in his personal simplicity and affability, is so enrapt in the solemnity of the Mass that he would not think of smiling through the Sacrifice of Calvary.
It may seem that reform of abuses is as futile as King Canute ordering the tide to roll back. Actually, that great king was showing his court that human pride has no authority over what does not belong to him. That is why he placed his own crown on a figure of Christ Crucified, and that is what true worship is all about.”
Thanks Catherine, such a faithful priest is such a blessing to us all. According to Michael Voris in yesterday’s news brief, there’s a huge scandal about to unfold in re homosexual clergy in Rome. I hope it’s not too late to clear out the nest of vipers but it seems they’re as ubiquitous as maggots infesting a wounded animal.
fish is a modernist and troll…not Catholic
Traditional.
Adamantine Fish only made a few comments…how did you come to that conclusion? Just wondering…..for all we know fish could be the same poster with different names…or maybe not…or you are discerning well…who knows….fish has not commented enough for me to discern what you discerned….
Wow, a zillion posts. But I will add just a couple of thoughts in reaction to Crisis Magazine’s fine piece on various ways to ruin a Mass. The sign of peace is an easy point to mess up. For one, people easily turn it into “social hour”, crossing aisles to greet as many as possible, then partially interrupting the Agnus Dei. No excuse for that. The extra need for the caution to keep it brief, “sober” and only to those nearby is occasioned by its placement right before the Agnus Dei, when one should be entirely recollected, not trying to find a period in a chat with a friend.
And how about flashing the good old sixties V sign to communicate, yes, “peace”, with folks at a little distance? Can’t get cheesier than that. Then there is the question of what is best to say when greeting. Most people say, “Peace!” I say,”The peace of the Lord be with you,” but don’t know if that is proper, as liturgically those words never occur except when pronounced by the priest. Just greeting with the word “Peace!” while a direct translation of “Shalom” does seem to lend itself to the already mentioned V finger sign.
And then there is always the thing of waving to people at a little distance. Seems like if there is eye contact a little nod of the head would be more in keeping with the dignity of the Mass than a wave.
And how about greeting people and practically high-fiving them (OK, a little exaggeration) while processing to receive Holy Communion? Not cool.
A great thing I have picked up from the Masses celebrated on EWTN is to keep the hands folded in the classic prayer position (as in Albrecht Dürer’s “Praying Hands”) before and after approaching to receive. It has a wonderful way of recollecting me, anyway, and signals that something way out of the ordinary is happening.
Then just a thought about music. Obviously Masses seem to be largely segregated on the basis of musical styles. And musical innovation has been introduced over the years in hopes of attracting younger and more participating parishioners. However, when I am obliged to attend a Mass with more “modern” music (I offer it up) I have noticed that far fewer parishioners sing along than with the traditional hymns at my favorite Mass. Are the musicians aware of this?
Roberta, no mention of the snack vending carts during the sign of peace?!
Jesus is God and truly man!…the Heavenly Father is male…most assuredly God is male!…do not let the modernist’s spread the foul drivel, that God is neither male,nor female!…it is HERESY!
And He wears a humongous white beard, right, Chx fleck?
GENERAL INSTRUCTION of the ROMAN MISSAL –
Table of Contents:
Foreword to this Edition
Introduction
Chapter I: The Importance and Dignity of the Celebration of the Eucharist
Chapter II: The Structure of the Mass, Its Elements, and Its Parts
Chapter III: Duties and Ministries in the Mass
Chapter IV: The Different Forms of Celebrating Mass
Chapter V: The Arrangement and Ornamentation of Churches for the Celebration of the Eucharist
Chapter VI: The Requisites for the Celebration of Mass
Chapter VII: The Choice of the Mass and Its Parts
Chapter VIII: Masses and Prayers for Various Needs and Occasions and Masses for the Dead
Chapter IX: Adaptations within the Competence of Bishops and Bishops’ Conferences
Gestures and Bodily postures of both the Priest and laity; the need for Silence; Extraordinary Ministers of Communion (Laity) not to be used on a regular basis;
Sign of Peace can vary according to customs as set by Bishops, however it is appropriate that each person in a sober manner, only offer the sign of peace to those who are nearest; type of music, and so much more is included in GIRM.
GIRM can be found on the Vatican and USCCB web sites.
It’s amazing how many Catholics do not know the requirements of their Faith, because they refuse to read.
When Catholics refuse to read official Church documentation, all kinds of annoyances and abuses can take place.
Do you ever watch Fr.Rutler’s ‘Christ in the City’, Kenneth? You can buy the videos from EWTN and they’re just so excellent. Cardinal Dolan is moving him to St.John the Baptist in the garment district, which has to be difficult at his age and to the many people who come to NYC just to hear his preaching. I found an interesting web site the other day called, hughosb.wordpress.com/ published by an Australian priest living in England. His most recent post deals with Pope Francis’ empty concert chair, and another interesting piece was called ‘The pope of our punishment’. ..very thought provoking. I’d be curious what you thought about it. Sorry I got off topic, alas!
As I came across this article and thread of comments, I found myself surprised by the negativity. While a discussion of church doctrine and history can be useful, the tone didnt seem quite right to me. I also was surprised to learn that so many are so opposed to a sign of peace that extends “too long” or “too far”, or to the use of any percussion instruments in the mass. It seems to me that the Holy Spirit comes to us in different ways, and through prayer and communion we open our hearts and mind to the Holy Spirit, to God. For some people, a handshake and warm smile from a fellow parishioner might do just that. For many, myself included, music is an important part of my prayer. I feel open to God in a way that only music can accomplish. If a tambourine or other instrument helps to provide a vehicle for God’s words to reach us, let’s accept Gods gift of music. Of course, different parishes and different masses offer all sorts of music, so everyone can find whats right for them.
A warm handshake, smiling at a fellow parishioner, tapping your foot while you praise the Lord doesn’t demean the sanctity of the mass in itself. Not if our heart is open to Jesus.
Similarly, some priests have scolded parishioners for their applause at the conclusion of the mass. All I know about our loving God tells me that it would please him to watch us express our gratitude towards one another, especially at the end of the Celebration of the Mass. If our prayer and celebration of the mass is done with joy, it in not necessarily any less sacred, true or Catholic .
The Spirit of the Liturgy by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
Liturgical Disintegration
“I am convinced that the crisis in the Church that we are experiencing today is to a large extent due to the disintegration of the liturgy, which at times has even come to be conceived of etsi Deus non daretur: in that it is a matter of indifference whether or not God exists and whether or not He speaks to us and hears us. But when the community of faith, the world-wide unity of the Church and her history, and the mystery of the living Christ are no longer visible in the liturgy, where else, then, is the Church to become visible in her spiritual essence? Then the community is celebrating only itself, an activity that is utterly fruitless. And, because the ecclesial community cannot have its origin from itself but emerges as a unity only from the Lord, through faith, such circumstances will inexorably result in a disintegration into sectarian parties of all kinds – partisan opposition within a Church tearing herself apart.”
Ann R – you made the point against your own position very well.
” All I know about our loving God tells me that it would please him to watch us express our gratitude towards one another, especially at the end of the Celebration of the Mass. If our prayer and celebration of the mass is done with joy, it in not necessarily any less sacred, true or Catholic .”
We go to Mass to worship the one and only God. We do not go to express our gratitude towards one another. Nor do we go to be entertained.
We go to entertainment venues to be entertained, and when the players do a good job we express our gratitude to them.
God and only God at Mass. We can be good buddies outside of Church.
Everyone, please read GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal).
All Bishops and All Priests, and all of us are REQUIRED to adhere to it.
https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20030317_ordinamento-messale_en.html
(Please bookmark this Vatican link in your ‘favorites’.)
Report violations to the Diocese Bishop, or the US Papal Nuncio and the Vatican to insure that all Masses are in respectful adoration of God.
We must not have “other” God’s before us – including but not limited to each other, or our being entertained or entertaining for self gratification.
We must all remember that the Mass is not about “ME” or “US”.
If it is not sacred, we should not be doing it.
Surely you can’t be serious when you say it’s not about me or us. “This is my body broken for you”. Christ made it all about us.