If the appointment of bishops is where the Papal rubber meets the road, Pope Francis is continuing where Pope Benedict left off. The changing face of the California Episcopacy continues. On Friday, May 3 at noon Rome time, the Holy Father named Father Michael Barber, SJ as the new bishop of the diocese of Oakland. The see had been vacant since the appointment of Salvatore Cordileone as archbishop of the archdiocese of San Francisco in October of 2012. Father Barber will take the reins from Archbishop Alex Brunett, the archbishop emeritus of Seattle, who had been serving as the apostolic administrator until the bishop’s chair was filled.
Father Barber currently serves spiritual director at St. John’s seminary in Boston. He grew up in San Francisco and Sacramento. He studied philosophy at Gonzaga University in Spokane, and theology at Regis College, University of Toronto. He was ordained in 1985 and spent two years of missionary work in Western Samoa, Polynesia. He was then sent to the Gregorian University in Rome to study and teach dogmatic theology. Father Barber’s research centered on the unpublished sermon manuscripts of Blessed John Henry (Cardinal) Newman. Father Barber’s interest in the Blessed Cardinal Newman is ongoing.
In 2010, Father Barber, joined by Franciscan University of Steubenville president Father Terrence Henry, served as spiritual director to a group of American pilgrims journeying to England for the beatification of Cardinal Newman. The pilgrimage was sponsored by the Cardinal Newman Society. Father Barber served at Oxford University as a research fellow at Campion Hall, the Jesuit college at Oxford. He subsequently was elected bursar and tutor in theology there.
Father Barber was appointed by Archbishop (now Cardinal) William Levada as director of the School of Pastoral Leadership in the archdiocese of San Francisco, followed by eight years as director of spiritual formation and assistant professor of theology at St. Patrick’s Seminary in Menlo Park, California. Father Barber served as a military chaplain. He was commissioned in 1991 as an officer in the U.S. Navy Reserve, and currently holds the rank of Commander. He was called up for the invasion of Iraq in 2003 as Catholic chaplain to the 6,000 Marines in the 4th Marine Air Wing.
As a chaplain to Legatus, the association of Catholic business leaders, gave a 2009 interview with Legatus magazine and did not sound like a mainstream California Jesuit:
“With the military you get a direct cross-section of America — a lot of the young people who wouldn’t have the tuition money to go to a Jesuit school. I like that. It’s a little more rough-and-tumble than you would encounter in a refined schoolroom atmosphere. You also meet many unchurched kids. I am their chaplain whether they like it or not. I go around the whole ship to all the Marines in the whole unit. I speak to them about moral issues or give them briefs about religious culture. I’ve also made friends with chaplains from other faiths. I’ve known one for 18 years, and I’m like an uncle to his kids. I would never be that close to a Southern Baptist in normal life.”
Does Fr. Barber say the TLM, and what are his views on Summorum Pontificum, generally? Abp. Cordileone has not exactly set the world on fire regarding implementing the TLM throughout Oakland or SF. But, good luck and God Speed to Fr. Barber as he inherits a battlefield in the land of pagans.
Oh, for goodness’ sake!
TLM is red meat, Novus Ordo is Milk.
The Bishop needs both.
Nuther excellent formulation, Kilonzo!!!
No, those of you who obsess about the TLM are not pagans, just hopelessly misguided.
McCrea, the novus ordo does not guide at all. The TLM does not misguide. Yes, some folks obsess but most TLM devotees are in a different category, one which is the seeking of the profound essense of Catholicism instead of the diet version.
Skai, your false claim that the Ordinary Form of the Mass “does not guide at all” is borderline heresy, Skai. You should realize that. All valid and licit celebration of the Sacraments LEAD, GUIDE, AND STRENGTHEN the faith of the People of God. Learn this basic truth before spewing your falsehoods here.
There have been so many abuses of NO mass its amazing any souls are strengthened at all. The NO has become a protestant like community meal , that will hopefully one day be abrogated and replaced once again with TLM forever…..
Not necessarily…if the mass is presented in an illicit manner, with forbidden liturgical dance and other elements of modernism, that the Church has forbidden, or may lead to scandal or sacrilege are NOT!… If a priest preach’s liberation theology, from the pulpit, he would be a heretic, because LT, has been condemned as heresy! Yet the sacrament would still be valid, as would the consecration, though possibly illicit, if in fact he had incurred ipso facto excommunication, for promulgating heresy. Even Archbishop Lefebreve validly ordained a number of bishops, though it was done illicitly. And NO, I am not a member of the Society of St. Pius the X!…Just a traditional Catholic, who finds elements of modernism creeping into his Church and faith, by liberal modernist’s some of whom are homosexual’s with another agenda!
All abuses of GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal) which can be found on the Vatican and USCCB web sites – must be reported to the Diocese Bishop with a copy to the US Papal Nuncio.
In addition, No homily should violate ANY of the teachings of the Church contained in the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition”.
ANNA, they had to revise the CCC2 because version one was messed up. So, by your logic, it does not matter what is taught as long as it adheres to whatever version of the CCC happens to be current?
jon, there is no such thing as “borderline” heresy.
jon, “man lives not by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God”, which means that there is a much greater incidence of priests failing to make this happen in novus ordo Masses than in TLMs. The TLM helps protect the laity from such unholy priests and bishops. But even when the novus ordo is said by holy priests, it still lacks a great deal. Hour for hour, the novus ordo cannot stand along with the TLM. In a kind of reverse view, one could say that the TLM is a novus ordo on steroids.
Skai – your opinion does not include ALL Masses in the Ordinary Form, even if you have had a few bad experiences.
Many people today do not understand Masses in languages that are not their own.
ANNA, you’ve got to flex up your reading skills a bit. You’re close to seeing what I posted but it looks as though you’ve thrown in a bit of your own wishful thinking … creative interpretation they call it. And on the language thing: no doubt you believe that all of Europe spoke and read Latin for fifteen hundred years, right, and so it was ok back then for Mass to be in Latin, right? And then the Nimrod event where the Tower of Babel fell down took place only recently in 1967, so that following that year no one could understand anything but whatever they spoke each day … right, ANNA?
A Eucharistic Minister “spilled” the chalice of Precious Blood at the Catholic Conference in Anaheim last year, when she was attempting to navigate the stairs at the convention center. This grave and shocking sacrilege would not have happened had not the “modernist’s” continued to “push” for this! I receive the host at mass…at the altar rail, only the priest drinks from the chalice…when one receives the host, they receive the Body, Blood, Souls and divinity of our Lord, IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO DRINK FROM THE CHALICE! Serious abuses and grave sacrilege has occurred, because people have spilled the Sacred Blood! I receive the host on my tongue…the Church did this for years because the priest could see where the Host went, directly into the communicants MOUTH…consecrated Host’s have been found in many pews when people receive on the hand, children leave them behind and even some sick, twisted, diabolical adults have done the same! These grave sacrileges and abuses have only been happening within the church (with regularity) for the past 40-45 years…you do the math, and tell us when, how and why, this has been taking place Jon?
I think it is a good thing to have imbibed from the Chalice … for the benefit of one’s own proximity to a sacred object of prayer, reflection and meditation.
When you receive’s the Host, how much closer does one need to be, to a sacred object?
What I’m getting at is not whether one or the other is more sacred, but that each is a distinct mystery. I’m not saying that one gives more union with God than the other. I’m pointing out that the soul who meditates on a divine mystery would seem to be facilitated more by closer proximity. Although, the fact of divine mystery power and authority to impart holiness to souls does not depend so much on physical proximity. Also, nobody ever discusses why Jesus provided both forms instead of only one.
Theologically, your question answers itself. Historically, however, He said “Take this ALL OF YOU AND DRINK FROM IT”, he didn’t say, “I’m going to drink now while you go back to your pew”.
YFC, when Jesus said that, there were no pews, the apostles were not sitting in pews, and He said it to the apostles … you were not there. Also, YFC, you do not reflect any theological knowledge in any of your posts. You have refused to comment on St Paul’s letter which says that some early Christians “were” … past tense … homosexuals and effeminates. None of Jesus disciples known to Gospel or Letter writers were sodomites.
The Host contains the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus, under the “One Species”…when I receive the Eucharist at mass, I receive on the tongue, Jesus did not give the apostles the shared “bread” on their tongue, it was given as bread, as it would be shared at a meal. At Saint Peter’s, in Rome it is given on the tongue, kneeling or standing…the importance and relevance is that we are receiving the Lord’s Body and Blood, it is not necessary to drink from the chalice, as I have already received our Lord fully, with the Host! Grave abuses have arisen from people receiving on the hand…as I have stated with Host’s being left in the pew’s, in fact it happened at my parish, just 2 weeks ago, and it was mentioned in the bulletin…furthermore abuses have arisen when lay people are all moving about with a chalice of the Blood of Christ…it has spilled in parishes and even at the Catholic Congress in Anaheim. This is one of the reason’s the Church did not deem it necessary or prudent to have communion offered under both species…and I believe it is prudent for the laity to receive just the Host…I feel only the Priest should drink the wine at communion. This is my personal opinion, and that is how it is done at my parish.
When Jesus gave the bread to the Apostles, He had not yet been to the Cross. Yes, He spoke as if He had, but this is because prophesy, which He spoke at that moment, ultimately has no time dimension.
Ditto. When I volunteered at a juvenile hall, they told us to watch the kids very closely while they were given the Host in the hands, so that the kids did not commit any sacrilege by abusing or stealing them. Some Hosts are stolen and later used for demonic sacrifices, although I’ve never attended one and so can only guess that such reports are factual.
jon, you ignore the Gospel over and over when I bring it to your attention … “Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God”: jon, you have no clue what this Gospel means, none whatsoever, at all. Pray God heal and restore and develop your mind.
Skai, can I just suggest that this is an excessively insulting assault against your fellow Catholics who follow the regular mass offered in our parishes! You insult. You tirade. and then you insult again!
“Tradition is the living faith of those who have gone on before. Traditioinalism is the dead faith of the living.” Jaroslav Pelikan.
“One of the worst enemies of Tradition is traditionalism. Real tradition lives by changing and dies by simply repeating itself.” Sebastian Moore, OSB
So, change for the sake of change is good, and is good always and everywhere? Or is it just if you endorse it? Who definitively decides what’s off-limits for change? You? Though you enjoy pontificating, know that you’re not superior to anyone whatsoever? You exemplify the maxim that most arrogant, condescending people have no claim to their “superiority”. They’re just turkeys, not the eagles they imagine they are. Anyway, I go to the TLM and the NO, and have gone to both for twenty years. The NO tends to be shorter and has wider availability, both of which can be important on a given day. But one major positive aspect of the Latin high Mass is that because of it’s pace and style, there is time and prompting to meditate on the rich truths of the Gospel, as they are sung about and prayed about. The prayers are marvelous as well. I go to both Masses and I know that both are valid. I have over and over perceived the consoling, unmistakable presence of the Lord in both. However, if I knew I could only pick one or the other for the rest of my life, I’d pick the TLM. The Byzantine Liturgy, which I’ve been to many times, is tremendous as well, I’d say for some of same reasons as the TLM. I like both equally.
For many of us it is an important part of our faith. Why do you feel the need to call us hopelessly misguided? That doesn’t sound like a statement inspired by God.
Mr. McCrea wrote: “those of you who obsess about the TLM are not pagans, just hopelessly misguided.”
Jim, Did you write the hopelessly misguided heretical article in the San Francisco Catholic titled ‘Marriage and the Bible’? If that was you, misguided physician, please heal thyself.
‘
Yep. I am that shameless, objectively disordered, protoprotestant, heretical physician who learned to heal himself a long time ago.
But thank you for asking anyway.
“Yep. I am that shameless, objectively disordered, protoprotestant, heretical physician who learned to heal himself a long time ago.”
Yes , you are certainly all of those things along with being extremely restless. Your heart remains extremely restless because you have no rest. If you were as restful in your shame you claim you would never bother to visit CCD. You will remain shameless and restless like St. Augustine who initially tried to heal himself until his heart finally rested in Christ.
Catherine those are good comments. You have such a way with conveying your wisdom, its refreshing. I don’t get Jim”s attack on the TLM? All this war between both mass choices, makes me sad….
Thank you sweet Abeca! If you scroll down and read my May 7, 10:10 pm post you will better understand why Jim is so very restless. Abeca, Jim is attacking more than just the TLM. Jim is attacking Christ and the Church that Christ founded. Let us keep Jim in our prayers.
To our Novus Ordo friends: We are what you once were. We believe what you once believed. We worship as you once worshiped. If we are wrong now, you were wrong then. If you were right then, we are right now.
what????????
YFC—you read it correctly !!!!!!!!
JF—I suspect that you are (as am I) what I term as crypto-Catholics). We are not pseudo-traditional Catholics who think that a few words in latin make a Mass. The protestantised new-mass said in latin is not valid and to to attend it is pagan idolatry–the worship of bread. The new order has destroyed the very core of catholicism–valid sacraments. And without valid sacraments there are no validly ordained bishops and therefore no priests. All that is left is Baptism and matrimony–but protestants have those as well. If one studies the criteria for Orders as defined especially by Pius Xll backwards for hundreds of years to Pius V , the heart of the Rite of Ordination has been exterpated by modernists. If defending the Catholic faith as it was for almost 2000 years (until Vatican ll) constitutes heresy in the new-order church, so be it!
Well said, Tom, but I don’t know if anyone can hear what you said..
Tom, am I to extract from your comments that the Church has been left without a Pope for the past 5o years? Or should I just conclude that the Popes since then have all been valid, despite the fact that they have been “worshiping bread”?
Tracy, Aquinas and many others have taught and the Church has held that in order to confect a Sacrament, three elements must be present for validity and that no pope,synod, or council can change these requirements. These elements are (1)matter,(2)form and(3)intent. The Rite of Ordination of Bishop and /or Priest must include language that defines the notes, terms and duties of the occupant. The Rite of Ordination of priests and bishops since 1969 lacks the clear terms defining those offices such and offering sacrifice to the Father for the living and the dead. Bishops are installed by the rite,and not Consecrated to this office. The popes prior to Francis were at least priests having been ordained by valid bishops useing a valid Ordinal but, after Paul Vl, bishops were not ordained validly,Paul Vl having excommunicated himself by teaching heresy. Francis holds the distinction of being the first “pope” who was neither priest nor bishop because his priesthood was precluded by in invalid ordinal. So, Tracy,since Paul Vl there have been NO valid popes and they and their bishops have no more power to offer the Holy Sacrifice,etc.than do I. So when one attends that which is said to be a mass of the new order,one shows reverence for bread (pagan). The new rite of Eucharistic “consecration” more aptly should read: “For bread thou art,and bread thou shalt remain.” I hope this clarifies my position. If you wonder why the new order church is falling apart–try the idea that the episcopy, lacking valid ordination, lacks the grace imparted to those with valid orders. True Sacraments work, “ex opere operato.” They produce that which they signify.
Tom Amadeo, where do you worship if there is no longer a Catholic Church?
Jim your comments are the real culprits and the misguided ones. You don’t sound Catholic to me with that terrible comment you just made.
Also I went to St. Mary’s in Escondido and I loved the Mass there…it is very reverent Novus Ordo and the pastor there spoke the truth. It was refreshing to hear his homily. Now if more of the NO parishes had excellent pastors like St. Mary’s, it would help improve the issues that the NO parishes are now facing. They need more holy and devout priests. To bad I don’t live near St. Mary’s but it was awesome to visit.
SC .. Not every priest is going to be trained to say the TLM. Most of us like the novis ordo. Are you saying that every new bishop needs to say it? Also, why would pagans be likley to go a TLM?
Sug, because of the ritual. If the ritual is done right and not messed with, then it speaks to the primordial essense of the human being. Language, when effective, is organic, ie natural, and thus so is ritual. If you look at petroglyphs from all corners of the globe, what you find is an amazing similarity … This implies that language has a universal root to it, same with ritual. The novus ordo lacks both ritual and language that amounts to much, and thus provides a platform for relativism and cafeteriaism.
I disagree. I see a lot of relativism and cafeteriaism among those who go to TLM. They pick and choose what they want to believe from the Magisterium of the Church, they discard what does not conform to their political ideology, bias, and prejudice. The inclination to wrong and evil swings both ways Skai–one side to the “happy-clappy” guitar Masses and the other side to the TLM-obsessed devotees who have made a tradition their god. You’re wrong.
Remember Jon, what Pope St. Pius the X said?…”Modernism is the synthesis of all heresies”…spend some time reflecting on what “constitutes” modernism…
Here’s the flaw in your reasoning Rhodesian: Pius X NEVER applied that heresy to the Novus Ordo Mass. Therefore, you’re wrong.
jon, what you see are hallucinations. You need to find a way to heal your mind. “A man who cannot reason is a fool, a man who will not reason is a bigot, and a man who dare not reason is a slave. ~ William Drummond”
TRADITIONALIST’S LAMENT: (to the tune of “Supercalifragiisticexpialidocious”)
Refrain: Introibo, Tantum Ergo, Kyrie Eleison
Give me back my pamphlet rack and surplices with lace on.
If Catholic means rock-and-roll I’d rather be a Mason.
Introibo, Tantum Ergo, Kyrie Eleison
I used to sing of Christ the King and goodly saints of yore,
But now some fool named Michael tries to row his boat ashore.
The Father, Son and Holy Ghost have given way to trash;
The Trinity has been replaced by Crosby, Stills and Nash! (Refrain)
They say they dropped the Latin hymns ‘cause they weren’t understood;
And hymns that no one understands are neither wise nor good.
Well, I will stop my nagging and shut up my wagging jaw,
If someone will just tell me what is meant by KUM-BY-YAH! (Refrain)
I fondly sing that, when I die, no matter how I’ve sinned,
The choir will sing Grant Him Rest and not Blowin’ in the Wind.
And as I soar to heaven’s door to rest among the stars,
Please bear me there with angel harps – not banjos and guitars! (Refrain)
Ray Orrick, Oakland, CA columnist and humorist. Presented to St. Francis de Sales congregation during the 1971 4-week summer series, “Humor.” Recorded in How Awesome is This Place, E. Donald Osuna, 2011.
Jon, you may be missing something important here. Ask how many Pius X members whether or not they believe that those we consider to be part of the Magisterium of the Church really are? To my knowledge they don’t consider their odinations valid unless they were ordained before Vatican II.
Therefore, Drummond supports my argument, not yours. Why? Saying that the Ordinary Form of the Mass provides for “relativism” is unreasonable indeed!
“primoridal essence of the human being”
I am not primordial, just so you know. I am infused with the incarnated God, I;m a Child of God, claimed by him and attached to him. I’m no longer a primordial essence, and therefore, if that is your defense of the latin mass, then I will seek god elsewhere. justsayin.
Which is tragic every priest should be trained in the TLM until the NO is abrogated
On the contrary, Arch Cordileone just instituted a weely Extraordinary Form (TLM) mass at Star of the Sea in San Francisco, and there are several others in the Archdiocese. When he was Bishop of Oakland, he was very supportive of the TLM at St Marg Mary and also at Immaculate Heart of Mary in Brentwood. Let’s give credit where it’s due please!
I hate this war between both sides…the TLM and NO…it’s still the Mass. Jesus is there…except for there are much more abuses found in the NO mass unfortunately.
I can’t stop feeling this way ……stop this war and improve the NO mass please!
What war? The “war” is being waged by those who are heretical against the Ordinary Form of the Mass! Wake up!
Fr. Michael is an excellent choice. This is amazingly good news. This speaks volumes to me about the tremendous blessing we all have in Pope Francis…
@ admin001,
May I ask what you know about Fr. Barber? Is he orthodox, is he TLM friendly?
Yes, you may… I know him personally and have taken classes from him. He is rock solid.
That’s wonderful news, thank you!
Rock solid meaning at least not against the TLM?
Amen, amen.
admin credentials are not all that encouraging. One of the major problems with the Church is its behemoth and beastlike admin, ie bureaucracy.
Does anyone out there know his record? In this Culture of Death time, those of us who toil in the trenches would be know him, but we don’t. Not a good sign. One wonders what his goal might be in Oakland? For starters, he could decide to drop out of the Catholic Conference (lobby) and put that money to good use in the diocese.
John, great idea. Maybe the new bishop on the block will be able to see more clearly how the Church in California is a laughing-stock when it comes to politics.
Here you go. This is an example of what I was talking about in my comment above.
Don’t want to get too excited, but maybe we finally have a good one.
His photo reveals an authentic man … hopefully he is.
My dad was a marine in Viet Nam. The Chaplains were wonderful! That’s good enough for me!
One of those chaplains, Catholic, received the Medal of Honor, Sugar.
A very solid Jesuit I know well had this comment about the appointment of Fr. Barber, SJ as bishop of Oakland: Wahoo!!!!
And Archbishop Cordileone has initiated the TLM at Star of the Sea parish in San Francisco effective May 26, 2013. The Archbishop is a champion of the TLM. He has celebrated the TLM many times here in the Bay Area.
To welcome the stranger is an act of mercy.
I knew it all the time, Anonymous … in real life you’re a comedian.
Gosh, folks, is anyone Catholic enough for you to be appointed Bishop of Anywhere?
What’s the point of having a faithless bishop? When the Pope Emeritus called the bishops to “become holy”, it’s because so many have no faith. Jesus says “men of little faith”, but many bishops have no faith, and thus are subjects of the devil and not of God.
Skai, your point that “many bishops have no faith” is presumptuous, erroneous, a sweeping generalization, uncharitable, un-Catholic, disrespectful, borderline sacrilegious, irreverent. Who do you presume to speak for? God? Only God knows the heart, Skai. NOT YOU.
Jon, Yes God alone knows the heart. However, you must remember that Jesus told us that you will know them by their works. St. James told us that faith without works is dead. Therefore based on these two truths it is possible to say that “many bishops have no faith” and not be guilty of being presumptuous, erroneous, uncharitable, un-Catholic, disrespectful, borderline sacrilegious, nor irreverent.
Maybe a reminder of history would be helpful here. Back during the Arian Heresy the majority of Bishops were adherents of this heresy. They were called out publicly by the minority of Bishops who maintained the true faith. Thank God for those faithful Bishops. Their boldness woke up and converted many of the wayward Bishops back to the true faith. So Jon I would maintain that “heart” is not the issue here.
No Tracy, you are dead wrong. Why? You claim we should look at works, yet you have produced NO evidence to substantiate your claim that the bishops have no faith based on their works.
Instead you bring up a heresy from centuries ago. How is that the works of the bishops of today? Irrelevant your point is, and wrong.
Basically, you have failed to prove your own point!
There were 17 bishops ( of over 200) who supported Arius and after the discussion at the Council of Nicea only 3 refused to sign the Creed. Arius was condemned by the bishops.
Remember, also, before you judge someone for not having works that Jesus told us to keep our deeds of mercy secret. Faith is a gift from God. To say that a bishop has no faith is an insult to God. All attacks on the bishops come from the evil one.
Well, I have had the happy opportunity to have known soon-to-be Bp. Barber, God bless and protect him, from long, long past,in a galaxy far, far away; and Oakland could hardly get a better choice for a strong traditional Catholic leader and an excellent priest. He in fact was put through some difficult times in the Jesuits, even starting from novitiate, many years ago, for being “too rigid” (yes, you may roll your eyes at this stock “slam”) and inferentially “pre-Vatican II,” and yet he stayed with it despite all the flak. He had a very good theological training at Toronto, at the Pontifical Institute there, so he is not a “Berkeley Jesuit”, with all the theological malformation therein. He has always loved the TLM, the true Catholic cultic priesthood, is fluent in trad Latin, would always spend time available to him to travel and study monastic roots and foundations and well as to study true Catholic theology (Aquinas) and know it, and Catholic tradition, and know it too. He is deeply dedicated to a life of prayer and saying the Office, esp. the traditional office. He knows something bad went wrong in the Catholic Church over the last 1/2 century, and he has studied long and hard to analyze and understand it and counter it. Yes he will have his work cut out for him in the abyss of Oakland Catholicism but he is tough as nails and more than equal to the cause — but also most very charitable, kind and smart. I am sure in some recesses of the California Jesuit houses there are knees knocking loud as fire alarms at this appointment… and I AM LOVING IT!!!
This makes me more than happy, thanks!
Good News, Steve.
I knew in my heart he was a “winner”!
John Francis from up North in Santa Rosa Diocese
Good Fr. Barber, please: (1) do something to the “Space Egg” space that passes for the Diocesan “Cathedral” and is an insult to the Faith; (2) institute a requirement that all seminarian learn Latin (per Bl. John XXIII) and the TLM (e.g., see the efforts of several of your soon-to-be fellow bishops, such as Bishop Morlino of Madison, WI, that require this); (3) stop the use of altar girls, a practice which is both silly, and inherently aimed at stopping the bonding of altar boy with thoughts of the priesthood; (4) bring a sense of the religious to all masses and especially the receipt of Holy Communion; make it on the tongue and kneeling (what a thought), just like the present and prior Popes; (5) consistent with #4, reduce, or eliminate the use of lay people at Mass, and in all respects where a priest or religious can perform such a function (too many times a priest simply sits down and lets the laity handel communion); and (6) stand up for tradition marriage, as your immediate predecessor bishop has done, and provide a true direction of homosexual Catholics, away for always-sinful same-gender sex and thoughts of normal same-sex relationships. Once all this is done, then require that all religious instruction includes a healthy dose of learning of the sacraments in the extraordinary form. Finally, require all parishes to have at least one Sunday, TLM, at convenient times. Simply coming in and only trying to “steer the (awful, liberal) ship” will not do at all. So many Catholics in California simply have no understanding of what Catholicism is (and perhaps do not want to know). Time for drawing the line.
St. Christopher, what do you have against altar girls? They are not going to get rid of them. I am amazed that it seems some people here would prefer that all altar girls just leave and join the Episcopal Church. Would that really make you happy if there were no altar girls in the US?
Yes, no altar girls at high solemn Mass. The contemporary type Mass is the proper setting for this diversity along with the drums, guitar, bass, and piano combo.
As long as altar servers can hold a candle vertically, male or female, I’m ok with that. I’m amazed at the lack of teaching!
While I’m on it, for a priest not to make a full genuflect is outrageous.
You are uncharitably projecting and are setting up a straw man. You know he does not want girls who currently simply serve altar to leave the Catholic Church. Stop doing this.
Perhaps PA because the altar should be a place of men only, straight normal men of course….You want to know why the Church is in tatters, too many gay priests and too many women in authority…..
Too many women in authority? The Pope is a man, all the cardinals are men and all the bishops are men. Women are not the decision makers in the Church. Altar girls don’t have any authority, they are just serving.
PA if you actually knew what you were talking about you would notice how many women run parishes councils, chancery offices, and of course Catholic Schools
Hate to disagree with you ML, so much was taken from my father that he blew his brains out with at 38 caliber. The war of sexes was started by vermin like Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem and other ghoulish misandrists
Mark from PA –
The evil LCWR, NETWORK and Sisters of Mercy of the Americas (RSM), have infiltrated the USCCB, many State Conferences of Bishops, and many Diocese as employees.
Do not underestimate their internal (behind the scenes) influence.
They do not adhere to the Catechism (CCC) in entirety.
Which seems to be the same primordial reflex as demonstrated by the gun grabbers: homosexuals and gluttonous women who want everything they can take from men, and then want to send the men into oblivion with only a shirt on their back.
I think the record shows that more men are guilty of taking what they want from women and then leaving them high and dry with nothing to show for their time together than broken hearts and sometimes diseases, children, and responsibilities that should be shared by two, than women have done men dirty. Most women want a decent life with a man, not to skin him and send him on his way.
The war of the sexes will never cool down until accusations, false and otherwise, are toned down, and trust and respect are reinstated as the usual way the genders can relate to one another. That would require abstaining from sexual relations until one is married, as the Catholic Church teaches, but few today follow.
Maryanne L I agree, it started with Adam not protecting Eve, then he blamed God for giving him her. Men need to get back to protecting women. Protecting their purity, respecting them etc…same goes for women but I do feel that it begins with men.
I feel for this generation….I pray for them as well.
St. Chris – You forgot to mention elimination of the use of the piano. Todays liturgy is taken over by the piano being plaid like a baroom brawl.
I don’t know him well, but my understanding is that he’s quite orthodox. He was at St. Patrick’s Seminary and did a world of good there revitalizing the spiritual formation program with traditional seminary practices common to both the Jesuits and Sulpicians: morning meditation for example. A beautiful Eastern Catholic chapel and improved Blessed Sacrament chapel were built during his time there. He was too good to be true: rumor holds that the Sulpicians drove him out, I believe to St. John Seminary, Brighton (Boston’s Seminary).
I will pray for him: this is a case of Daniel being thrown to the lions.
In the case of Daniel and the lions you have that right! The priests of this diocese have shown their disdain for instructions from the Bishop many times.
Has there ever been a bishop who grew up fighting or brawling and turned out well? When is the last time a bonified tough actor played a bishop in a good movie? Any bishops ever fought golden gloves? Football? In other words do we have or have we ever had bishops who were blessed with the normal amount of testosterone and learned how to control themselves in admirable ways?
Skai, what is this attraction that you have to fighting? As I have stated before, I was taught that fighting was a sin. People who are addicted to fighting and brawling may be cursed with too much testosterone. What is it about hitting people that would make a bishop a better man?
Skai, the qualifications for the good bishop are found in St. Paul’s first letter to Timothy, chapter 3. The qualifications are NOT to be found in your comment above. Yours is a list for a possible roles for a John Wayne or a Humphrey Bogart; your words are not qualifications for a good bishop.
The truth is Skai, is that men who are interested in fighting, brawling and chasing women have no interest in the priesthood. With men like that, you are lucky if you can get them to go to church.
St. Paul has always been an example of what manhood is all about. He was protective of the nascent churches, and all of those under his charge. He was faithful, strong, brave, loving and incredibly honest and forthright. He didn’t show weakness to those who were in error, and didn’t hesitate to correct them (even Peter) but he always did it with love. He was a man’s man, and yet he had many women as friends. He supported himself and his mission by making tents. He didn’t take handouts. He kept his dignity even though suffering countless indignities. I’ve always admired his self-discipline. He really had an aversion to those who didn’t pull their socks up or males who were ‘girly’ guys. (Romans I)
I am truly sorry that so many Catholics speak about the Latin mass as a prehistoric relic that some of us are supposedly “obsessed” by. It is obvious that these people have never experienced anything but the faux concoction of the novus ordo, which, despite its recent changes under Pope Benedict, is still only a pale shadow of the traditional tridentine mass, so callously discarded in the aftermath of Vatican 2. Many years of neglect have yielded a church whose sunday service resembles a protestant prayer meeting; it may take another generation to return to the full glory of our traditional form of worship. Many of us, alas! will not live long enough to experience it. Future generations will call the post-conciliar period the “dark ages”. For me, it requires an act of heroic virtue and obedience to suffer through sunday mass…
Both the Ordinary Form (Novus Ordo), and the Extraordinary Form (Latin or Traditional) are Holy.
We need to push the USCCB (which includes our Diocese Bishops) to undo the damage they inflicted with the indults (special permissions) they requested from the Vatican –
1) We must kneel while receiving the Lord.
2) We must receive the Lord on the tongue.
3) Non-consecrated hands must not touch the Lord except in very rare circumstances (no Eucharistic ministers on a regular basis at Mass).
4) We must make the Mass about adoration and glory to God alone, not distracting by shaking hands with those around us or holding each other’s hands during the Lord’s prayer.
5) Music should be Holy and about adoration to the Lord, not about us.
6) As potentially a possible step toward interest in the Priesthood, there should be no Altar girls.
The USCCB, and internal political influence from the Nuns of the LCWR, NETWORK, and Sisters of Mercy of the Americas have done great damage.
The LCWR (Leadership Conference of Women Religious) and NETWORK should be abolished. They have enough work to do within their own Orders.
Dear Mac: Points one through six are routinely ignored in the novus ordo masses I am obliged to attend. That is why mass attendance is a penance and an act of heroic virtue to me. It has been thus for more than half of my lifetime.
Good grief Anton, it is awful that you see Mass attendance as a penance. You get out of the Mass what you put into it. Don’t you feel any joy in receiving the precious body and blood of Our Lord in the most Holy Eucharist? Our pastor said that when we attend Mass we witness a miracle.
Mark: First they tore out the communion rail. Then the priest turned his back to the altar and made the congregation the center of attention. Then they introduced the novu ordo mass which had been concocted by an Italian bishop who admitted that he wanted our holy mass to resemble a Calvinist prayer service. He succeeded brilliantly in his efforts. The novus ordo gutted the mass, eliminating a large portion of the prayers that had been part of our traditional worhip since the sixteenth century. Then they stopped playing the organ and sustituted guitars and drums. Then they did away with the altar boys. We didn’t need them any more since we stopped ringing the little bells during the consecration. Then the did away with incense. Then they brought in altar girls. Then they mistranslated what was left of the mass (God bless Pope Benedict for rectifying all the petty annoying heresies that had crept in). Then they came up with lay ministers distributing communion like they were giving away cookies. And they started wondering why so many of the faithful no longer believed in the real presence. Then we started shaking hands and congratulating ourselves as to how wonderful we all were. Then the brought in readers who had never learned diction and elocution. Then they covered the walls with posters and banners and started celebrating Earth Day. And you wonder why a traditional Roman Catholic, who was catechized by Capuchin monks and longs for a solemn high mass as a thirsty man in the desert longs for a drop of water, why a man like this is put off by the sterility of Bugnini’s novus ordo?
Anton L Seidl, have you ever studied the history of the Mass? I don’t mean to come off smart aleck but-at the first Mass, they said Jewish prayers. There was no communion rail and the High Priest did not have his back to the congregation. There was no organ. No altar boys. I hope you eventually can attend the solemn high Mass like you desire. But you may have forgotten that the Mass is the Sacrifice of Calvary made present to us. All the things that you complain about are distracting you from the miraculous event that takes place at every Mass.
Dear dear Anton: I’m sorry if you have had to suffer through people who do not believe in the real presence. But your description does not describe any parish I’ve worshipped in anywhere since I became a catholic decades ago. Please seek out a parish that suits your quest for the Risen Lord!
Anton, I’m not convinced that the laity “stopped believing in the Real Presense”, but that they stopped believing that their local parish priests were actually providing the Real Presense, and they wonder where to find “It” now. When I first became alert that there is such a thing as the Real Presense, then I undertook a several years journey to find “It”, and I did. It is not so easy sometimes, especially when the a particular parish or diocese has all but disguised “It”.
If your Parish does not adhere to the:
Bible,
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition,
GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal) as currently approved by the Vatican, and the
Code of Canon Law,
talk to your Pastor – it is helpful if as many as possible talk to him.
If that does not work, contact your Diocese Bishop.
If that does not work contact the Vatican with a copy to the US Papal Nuncio.
Since we can not provide the links on this site, on the internet go to: “What Catholics REALLY Believe SOURCE”.
Click on the “source” page and you will find official links to everything discussed.
(You may want to mark this site as a “favorite” for future use and to share with others.)
Per the Code of Canon Law #212-3, we each have an obligation to inform the Diocese Bishop of issues. (Documentation of some type is always helpful, so that you do not get into a he said, she said situation.)
MAC: What id the diocesan bishop is part of the problem?
Why is it always, “If your parish does not adhere … “? “Parish” is an abstract, sort of like the Bible in terms of having authority. Our “adherence” is meant to be to Jesus Christ, not to a book, to any grouping of people, to any sodomite priest or bishop or pope, but to Jesus Christ … thus we have the Sacraments and the Holy Spirit to preserve us from evil men and women who serve the devil, the flesh, and/or the world. We have the responsibility to discern God from all else, and Jesus gives us the capability of doing this, not only through His hierarchy but through His direct means, such as the union with God which is effected by the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist.
See: this is heretical. Skai’s words are off-the-mark. You adhere to Jesus by adhereing to the Pope and his bishops and priests: to the hierarchy who are the guardians of the Sacraments. Straight up! ANd by the way, the parish is not an abstract. How silly! A parish is made up of human beings. Not abstractions!
How soon before we can plead with Bishop Barber to pick up where Bishop Cordileone (now Archbishop in San Francisco) left off with regard to the Catholic Association of Lesbian and Gay Ministry (CALGM), the cancer in Berkeley which seeks to homosexualize the Catholic Church (more than it has already become)? Bishop Cordileone had twice notified CALGM that it must confirm that it believes in and provides correct Catholic teaching. CALGM has never done so.
”Obedience is a penance of reason, and, on that account, a sacrifice more acceptable than all corporal penances and mortification’s.”
–Saint John of the Cross, Doctor of the Church
The object of obedience has to be true, though; otherwise it is vanity or ignorance to obey it. There is always context in the letters and works of the Doctors, and this context needs to be discovered. Otherwise we become catechism thumpers.
The Catechism teach the Truth, Skai. You’re so misguided.
jon, a book is incapable of teaching. A book, even the Bible, is not a life form, has no life to it, cannot do anything at all, despite what those who worship books claim. jon, you have to turn away from your idolatry.
In that case Skai, you have gone against the Blessed John Paul II’s statement that any Catholic can rely upon the Catechism as a sure guide for the faith.
The more you spew falsehoods here on this blog, the more you reveal how far you have strayed from the faith. Repent, for the Catechism indeed teaches the Faith!
“There being an imminent danger for the Faith, prelates must be questioned, even publicly, by their subjects. Thus, St. Paul, who was a subject of St. Peter, questioned him publicly on account of an imminent danger of scandal in a matter of Faith. And, as the Glossa of St. Augustine puts it (Ad Galatas 2.14), ‘St. Peter himself gave the example to those who govern so that if sometimes they stray from the right way, they will not reject a correction as unworthy even if it comes from their subjects.”
(Summa Theologiae of St. Thomas Aquinas, IIa IIae, Q. 33, A. 4)”
One has a duty to obey their superiors in all matters except sin.
Good point, Anonymous. Why don’t you lead the way?
That is true Skai about what you said about Obedience
I had five years of Latin in Catholic schools, so I well understood the Latin Mass. I understand and respect that some find the Latin Mass better ritual. I, however, was ecstatic when the Church introduced vernacular liturgies. I remain so. What disturbs me is the Church’s insistence that the text of the liturgical prayers be in non-gramatical, convoluted American that better appromximates Latin. I trust that Almighty God is fluent in semi-fomal American. God will remain so in one hundred years, when some of today’s slang has become the then accepted usage. After all, Latin was the vernacular of the time when it was adopted.
Yes, of course, even the German peasants grew up speaking Latin, as did the Catholic peasants in all remote regions. It was only later when all those diverse peasants decided to create new ethnic and regional languages that the problems began. I suspect it was Nimrod who began that language revolt somewhere in 3rd century AD Jerusalem where the kids in Hebrew school all learned Latin as well. In fact centuries later, archeologists discovered petroglyphs that translated only in Latin. This led them to discover that Adam and Eve spoke Latin also.
This brief reflection has brought up the possibility of having the Mass in the language of petroglyphs, if only we could find someone who could speak it … It would be more universal than Latin or Greek, since petroglyphs are so similar everywhere they’re found. Well, I had a further insightful thought on this, but it vanished into thin air. “The Lord gives, the Lord takes; blessed be the Name of the Lord”.
May 5 7:37am was mine, Skai. Forgot to put my name.
God understands us more fully than we understand ourselves, no matter in what language we are speaking or thinking, or none at all.
Beautiful way to phrase that, Maryanne!!!
Yes, Maryanne, that is so true!
Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how we should pray, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with inexpressible groanings. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes on behalf of the saints according to God’s will.
Thanks for reminding us!
I wish I knew more Latin, Mike. I only took a few days of it in 9th grade and then dropped out. But I am glad that I dropped out because it was enough that I had the priest that taught Latin for Religion for 3 years. He was not a nice man. Too bad that he didn’t have Skai or Canisius as students. Maybe one or the other of you men could have set him straight. The “perfect one” (his nickname for himself) wouldn’t have been so perfect after you got done with him. But he probably would have been smart enough not to mess with you guys.
Skai and Canisius, you probably would have argued with that priest when he allowed the girls in our class that he liked, serve as altar servers when he said Mass for our class. This was in the 1970’s when girls were not allowed to be altar servers yet. The last 3 months of school instead of having Religion class, he said Mass in the chapel and the students that wanted to could attend Mass. This was the most worthwhile part of the class for me as most of the time he didn’t teach but just chatted with the girls that he liked. A couple of times we discussed Simon and Garfunkel songs in class but I don’t actually remember ever opening our Religion text. It may not be nice but I actually would have liked to have seen you two take on this guy.
PA, I have no idea where your head is at on your Cinco de Mayo 1:44 blog, but take it out of there asap. You don’t get what I’ve said occasionally for years here that I came forth from a living tomb symbolized by the mummy Lazarus. Altar girls are a relatively minor abomination, nothing that I’m going to fret about … especially since I’ve maybe never seen one … although I did see a tutu flitting 25 year old sodomite “dancing” around the altar at the big Paulist parish in Westwood decades ago while the ultra wealthy parishioners looked on approvingly … I might even at that moment had thoughts wandering over to the big Mormon church next door, since their morals were far more decent than those of that cabal of pseudo Catholics.
“discussed Simon and Garfunkel songs” after passing the kidney stones I would have gladly taken this so called priest on… Good Lord look what they did to our Church
Here is a beautiful Latin phrase Mark……..Christi crux est mea lux = The cross of Christ is my light
PA, the type of “man” you describe does not do as you imply, namely interact fairly and reasonably with students. Rather they find ways to abuse the student, such as dishing them out bad grades, or other ways of trying to seduce them on one level or another. Apparently, PA, you’ve never experienced an actual teacher, but only those weird ones you’re always describing. Too bad you never had the chutzpah to ask, seek and knock, as Jesus recommends.
As soon as a Bishop is officially installed by the Vatican to a specific Diocese he becomes fully responsible for everything “Catholic” within that Diocese.
At that point Catholics have an obligation (per Code of Canon Law #212 – 3) to keep the Bishop informed of problems within the Diocese.
However, there is nothing stopping anyone from informing the new Bishop as soon as he has been named.
It is unsettling to see the continued opposition to the TLM, the Mass to which all prior saints of the Church were devoted, as well as direct and continued disobedience by bishops to the Pope regarding Summorum Pontificum. The N.O. is entirely a man-made sop to the faux ecumenical movement, seeing all religious expression as equally worthy. What is the glory in the N.O.? It is not an equivalent mass to the TLM, no not even if the Pope says so (and how could any post-Vatican II Pope say anything differently, given that they forced the changes to the Mass). Some recent commentators have said Vatican II was the Church’s French Revolution, and it seems to be the case that this is more accurate than not. In the fact of the practice of the Church, the past 50 years or so has produced a New Church, one not at all consistent with the past. Silly innovations like altar girls do nothing for the faith, and do nothing but give the American populace a sense that the Church is subject to general political pressure. This practice is inherently unfair to girls, and, more importantly, to boys, who are robbed of a special relationship with priests and the Church. Boys can become priests, and many are needed. Fr. Barber is not likely to do anything much different than did the prior two bishops, as few bishops have the moral courage of the faith to act like Cardinal Burke, Bishop Morlino and Bishop Sample, just to name a few of the very (few) good ones. Instead, bishops have awful examples of putting the faith into practice, such as with Cardinal Dolan (who, rumor has it, does all he can to forbid the TLM within his Diocese).
St Christopher, I don’t think being an altar server is unfair to girls. How is this so? You say boys are robbed of a special relationship with priests. This statement just has me shaking my head. The priest that taught me Religion for 3 years in high school cultivated “a special relationship” with some of his altar boys and it didn’t turn out well for some of them.
Just a single thought here St. Christopher…you refer to the TLM as the mass to which all prior saints were devoted. I don’t understand that reference. The TLM is the mass of John XXIII, if I’m not mistaken, therefore a mass in use since about 1962. Even if you are referencing a mass since Trent, that mass was in use since the 16th century or thereabouts. Certainly, the TLM was nothing like the liturgy celebrated in the first century, when there were hundreds of saints and martyrs, including Saints Peter and Paul. I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t recognize much of the rubrics of the TLM. So I get the ancient reverence to the latin mass, but to say that the TLM is the mass of all prior saints seems a stretch. Am I wrong?
You are mistaken, YFC. Go look up what the TLM is, and then get back to us all here with your report.
OK skai if i am mistaken, can you please tell me how, rather than attacking me personally once again? Clearly TLM was not the form of the mass as instituted by Christ, so the notion that all prior saints were TLM adherents is ridiculous on its face.
Well YFC your heretical notions need to be attacked. There were countless saints who attend the TLM from the Venerable Bede to Elizabeth Seton all of them attend the TLM in one form or another, with variations before being standardized by the Council of Trent
Sure countless saints, but the implication has been given that ALL saints attended TLM. Bede was, what, 8 centuries after Saint Stephen?
Wouldn’t being altar girls draw girls to becoming nuns just as much as boys to becoming priests, assuming it works that way at all?
Caroline, a lot of the posters here aren’t that happy with nuns.
A perfect example of a half-truth, Mark. Many here are not happy with the so-called nuns-on-the-bus that wear lipstick and earrings, pants and frufru hairdos and do nothing but rebel against Church authority, promote lesbianism and general anarchy that is promulgated in the secular culture. These women are no more ‘nuns’ than Linda Lovelace. They’ve excommunicated themselves many times over and it is only the generosity and patience of their overseers that they are still able to pass themselves off as viable Church entities.
The beautiful and faithful nuns whose orders are growing by leaps and bounds are respected and loved wherever they go, especially by the vast majority of posters here. A half truth is basically no truth at all.
PS, I have a beautiful book with B&W photos by Yousuf Karsh of Bishop Sheen called “This Is the Mass”. In it are many photos of a beautiful altar boy assisting the Bishop in what was then the traditional Mass. One lasting impression I had was how the altar boy was in complete accord with the Bishop and how he was patterning himself in conformation with all he did. Had it been a girl there, it would have been utterly ridiculous. Until you actually learn why the altar boys are there you’ll never understand why it is utterly unthinkable to have girls helping with the Mass. Too much protestant influence has led Catholics to believe they’re only there to light candles etc., eye candy like flower girls at weddings. I feel they’re there as extensions of the priest. Bishop Sheen had been an altar boy. From his introduction to the book Bp Sheen writes of the Mass…”this whole conception has in view a sort of spiritual symphony in which all themes are taken as being expressed, developed and unified under the guidance of one purpose….the liturgy of the Mass unfolds itself before our eyes in an impressive harmony which allows of no comparision. In it and by it is every aspect of man’s religion duly accomplished:the Mass is the summation and complement of all man’s hopes and good purposes…” Why must people constantly politicize everything, even the Mass? Why do we have to meet quotas based on sex and race? What has that to do with worshipping God? In a small way the Mass is no longer quite a symphony but perhaps more snippets of tradition pasted together, like they put together modern music which is often done entirely by sound engineers? I’m just postulating here, because I’ve no idea. I wish everyone would just read this book and then tell me what you think? All I know is that whatever it is Bishop Sheen and Henri Daniel-Rops (who wrote all the beautiful descriptions) are telling the reader about the Mass is not even close to what I see being carried out at Sunday Mass where I attend. We have the usual altar girls with their painted toenails and yesterday we sang “Let There Be Peace on Earth” for what must have been the twentieth time this year and it’s not even June yet. God help us!
Fortunately heretical ideas like saying altar boys are extensions of the priest and that girls as altar servers are ridiculous are fading out of their own stale accord. As Pope Francis says, we must move forward, not backward. Women and girls get this, and they will lead the Church to the light.
Bishop Sheen said “You get out of the Mass what you put into it.”
Dana, your comments are very interesting. You go on and on about a beautiful altar boy. For some reason you seem quite enchanted by a very good looking young man. However, many kids are just average looking, for some their beautify is more on the inside. Should someone not be an altar server because they don’t have the right looks? It seems to annoy you that you have to look at girls on the altar. Please remember that we go to Mass to worship God and to join ourselves with Christ in the Holy Eucharist. Please try and be more tolerant of the altar servers who are not “beautiful boys.” All of our children are probably beautiful in the eyes of God.
PA, we just don’t like the LWCR clipped hair type of so called nun… the rest are quite fine
Don’t confuse “nuns” with “sisters”…there is a difference. The “Nuns on the bus” were not even nuns!
Good point, Alice!
Mark, I think a lot of the posters here aren’t that happy with anyone in the church!
caroline, poor lost lamb, why don’t you consult with “Wymyn Priests” to find out the answer?
St. C, you are right when you say: It is unsettling to see the continued opposition to the TLM, the Mass to which all prior saints of the Church were devoted. Right for you, that is. For many of us, what is really unsettling is to see the continued opposition to the NO. Vatican II was the turning point for the church. The Pope opened the windows and let in some fresh air. We both can agree, I think that the two forms of the Mass are equally valid. For those who grew up in the 40s and 50s, the church had to change or die. It was a church in which the hiearchy, starting with the parish priest ruled over all of us with impunity. As the world changed, the church did not and it became an institution to which people no longer listened. People were leaving in droves. What a joy to be able to attend Mass in English, for me, or other languages for people in other nations. What a joy to have the voice of the people listened to and for people to contribute ideas about how to make the parish more engaging. It was a trying time too, because we had to learn to do things differently. We always had knelt at the rail to receive communion on the tongue. We didn’t do that anymore in many cases. That doesn’t mean it was wrong, or less humble an act, just different. My experience is that many, many people who want to go back to the old ways didn’t live through them, or just don’t like change. Of course, many make the argument that going back will bring people back to the church. I doubt it. What is pulling people away from the church, ours and most others, it our culture that doesn’ believe in God, that believes that it is ok not to go to Mass, etc. That, according to the survey data is a cultural issue, not caused by the new order of the church, but by the securalization of the country. Only 25% of Catholics attend church on a regular basis. Going back to the old ways won’t bring them back. If we want to bring them back, we must adapt, not what we believe and profess, but how we engage people and how we show ourselves to the world as a joyful people who believe that one day they will join their Savior in heaven for eternity. We have to stop being against everything and hating people who don’t agree with us. We should be a big tent. Pope Francis says we should be a “Yes” people. Yes, come as you are and learn about the Lord and about what He has in store for you.
“For those who grew up in the 40s and 50s, *the church had to change or die.* It was a church in which the hiearchy, starting with the parish priest ruled over all of us with impunity. As the world changed, the church did not and it became an institution to which people no longer listened. People were leaving in droves.”
Saints in heaven preserve us from the folly of anonymous fools!
‘The anonymously masked know it all who claims to know the most knows the least!”
I’ve not often ventured into the various items on CCD about the latin masses. Let me try, just to show that I am not a one note wonder.
Since we were not raised Catholic, I didn’t go to mass until we did so in school. We knew big changes were afoot…each year it seems the nuns had new habits, and we had been told that this was the new mass, which seemed fine with me since I was in a new school and because we were being taught the new math to go right along with it. Mass was shorter, but division was longer. Habits were shorter, and homework was longer. Everything was new, and newness was seen as a positive thing. Everyone seemed happy.
By the time I got to college, i took a greater interest in my faith, and heard about the folks at SSPX and how they were on the outs because of their support for the Latin mass. I have to say I felt sorry for them…having been told all their lives that the latin mass was God’s liturgy, then to have it switched in, what I guess was a matter of months.
While I was in college, I mostly attended mass, but also other denominations, and several types of masses within catholocism…charismatic, quite traditional, and guitar masses (I know – many of you are shuddering in horror!). Even, on occasion, the clown masses that the local Lutheran parish held a couple times a year.I was on an honest quest.
So ultimately, it seemed to me that there were a variety of spiritual practices that helped congregants come into contact with the presence of Christ. I understood the theology of those spiritual practices, even the ones that didn’t speak to me. But what I was never able to get my head around was the theology of Latin masses. I mean, didn’t the Incarnation mean that Jesus took human form, spoke the language of people, and gave us a ritual to remember him forever? When he instituted that ritual, presumably he spoke Aramaic. So, either the liturgy should be in the language of the people, or, if it has to be in a dead language, why not Aramaic? Instead, the Church chose the language of the conquerors, the Romans. The Jews who did not become converts expected the massiah to deliver them from the Romans, just as God had delivered them from the Egyptians. So why, oh why, did the Church take on the language of the conquerors, instead of that of the Jews or the people? It would have been like the Temple priests doing the temple sacrifices in the Egyptian language!
So anyhow, that is not to say that I don’t deeply appreciate the spiritual attachment to the Latin mass. I get that the reverence and respect that people sense when they hear a latin mass speaks to their hearts. But for me, speaking only for myself, participating in a liturgy that celebrates the Incarnation, a Jesus who was God-made-man, for me, for the forgiveness of my sins, in my presence and in my language…that is enough to induce reverence in my being.
Thanks for listening.
Thanks for sharing!
YFC, you’re not a one note wonder, no matter how hard you try playing your flute.
YFC, I am just curious (no ulterior motive). You said you were not raised Catholic, but you went to Catholic schools. Were you baptized as an infant or later in your life?
baptized as an infant
Thank you.
Catherine, I am from the 40’s and 50’s and people were not leaving in droves – Religious orders were packed and so many men wanted to study for the priesthood that many qualified men were turned away – The Church was at it’s prime in those days and the leaders of the world were looking at PP 12th for religious direction – When V2 came along then the Church changed, priests and religious orders defected and that is why we are in the mess we are in today – The Church still seems to do business as usual and I really do not see any change –
Eric, explain how such a glorious perfect and faithful Church of the 50s brought about the corruption and “smoke of Satan” into the Church of Vatican II. Nobody has yet bothered to explain this, how angelic Catholicism became pedo- and aborto- and contracepto- Catholicism. After all it is said that most bishops around Pope Paul VI were clamoring for birth control … They were all from your era of glory, Eric.
Skai, I think that maybe should you review Church history and get a better understanding of what really went on during V2 – Bishops had complete authority of what changes they wanted to make in their areas & please explain the sudden decline in the priesthood and religious orders that started in the early 60’s – also, for your information Pope Paul VI did not make his “smoke of satan” comment until 1978 about 25 years after V2 ended –
The smoke of satan homily was Jun 29, 1972, Vatican II ended December 8, 1965.
Eric, as I’ve said many times in these blogs, the point of Vatican II is to cull the chaff from the wheat, and that is what is happening.
Like it or not, I think the decline in Church attendance started with Humanae vitae, not with Vatican II. I rarely heard people say they stopped going to church because it was in English, but I sure did hear lots of people say that they felt rejected by the Church for moral decisions that economics forced them to take with their families.
Eric,
I understand what you are saying. Please read the 4:15 pm post above mine. I was quoting the words of a poster who uses the name anonymous. Eric, Many people have never heard about the vision of Pope Leo XIII.
The vision of Pope Leo XIII
The prayer to St. Michael
“Saint Michael, the Archangel, defend us in battle; be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do thou, O prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into Hell, Satan and all the other evil spirits, who prowl throughout the world, seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.”
Exactly 33 years to the day prior to the great Miracle of the Sun in Fatima, that is, on October 13, 1884, Pope Leo XIII had a remarkable vision. When the aged Pontiff had finished celebrating Mass in his private Vatican Chapel, attended by a few Cardinals and members of the Vatican staff, he suddenly stopped at the foot of the altar. He stood there for about 10 minutes, as if in a trance, his face ashen white. Then, going immediately from the Chapel to his office, he composed the above prayer to St. Michael, with instructions it be said after all Low Masses everywhere.
When asked what had happened, he explained that, as he was about to leave the foot of the altar, he suddenly heard voices – two voices, one kind and gentle, the other guttural and harsh. They seemed to come from near the tabernacle. As he listened, he heard the following conversation:
The guttural voice, the voice of Satan in his pride, boasted to Our Lord:
“I can destroy your Church.” The gentle voice of Our Lord: “You can? Then go ahead and do so.”
Satan: “To do so, I need more time and more power.”
Our Lord: “How much time? How much power?
Satan: “75 to 100 years, and a greater power over those who will give themselves over to my service.”
Our Lord: “You have the time, you will have the power. Do with them what you will.”
In 1886, Pope Leo XIII decreed that this prayer to St. Michael be said at the end of “low” Mass (not “high”, or sung Masses) throughout the universal Church, along with the Salve Regina (Hail, Holy Queen); and the practice of the congregation praying these prayers at the end of Mass continued until about 1970, with the introduction of the new rite of the Mass.
Catherine, Thank you for the update – I remember the prayer to St. Michael as the Sisters had us recite it almost daily in school –
Catherine, a friend and I sometimes stay after Mass and say the St. Michael’s prayer. Perhaps if more of us begin to do this in our local churches, it will begin to catch on? They say it after every daily Mass on EWTN. So much happened after 1970…looking back I see gigantic upheavals that I didn’t see while living through it. I suppose that is why I’m so conscious now of the terrible, dark changes taking place because I recognize the warning signs. In the ’70’s it was the no-fault divorce the destruction of families, abortion, welfare dependence on a huge scale and government intrusion into education and social issues. Now it is cloning, homosexual so-called marriage, infanticide and deliberate gov’t intrusion into religious and personal freedoms. There’s much else, I know, but these are the wedges being used to make further inroads into the breakdown of societies around the world leading to a one-world gov’t and we all know what that means. Why arent’ more people talking about the hideous ‘ONE WORLD BLDG’ being completed in NYC. It’s monstrous and reminds me of Big Brother’s Ministry of Truth. The big fat hideous mosque is being completed there too. Wow, folks, there’s so much darkness creeping over the whole world and hardly anyone is speaking about it. Creepy Soros with his sticky slimy trail of scheming and deceit has his squishy thumbprints all over these events…along with the Rockefeller’s et al. I’m going to start praying for a big thunderbolt…or at least God’s Will be done. Thanks again Catherine for the still, small voice of reason. God bless you, sister in Christ!
I depend greatly on the St Michael prayer … because of my experiences.
You can learn more on wikipedia.
Eric,
Thank you for your response. I was also blessed to have wonderful Sisters in grammar school and the example of some very faithful Immaculate Heart Sisters who remained in their full habits and faithful to Church teaching during a very turbulent time for their order. I loved those wonderful Sisters who were such courageous role models of the faith.
Pope Leo XIII was certainly inspired by the Holy Spirit when he wrote this very powerful prayer after that terrifying vision. A few years ago I was asked by a priest to go with another person to speak with the Provincial of an order about the terrible things that were taking place in his jurisdiction. The Provincial greeted us for this scheduled appointment in a Hawaiian shirt with shorts and sandals. Eric this meeting was regarding very serious matters. We spoke for over 2 hours and respectfully explained what was taking place. The Provincial quietly and respectfully listened. He barely spoke but he did say that he did not want us to take his silence as a sign that he did not believe what we were telling him. When the meeting was finished I reminded the Provincial that the Blessed Mother loves all of her priests, even the ones who are disobeying her Son, but that she DOES want the ones who are disobeying her Son to stop the disobedience and stop offending Him. The Provincial responded, “I would like to apologize for the way that I dressed today.” Eric we had never said anything about his attire, although we did notice it, we were still respectful and truthful and most importantly, we recited the St. Michael prayer before that difficult meeting.
The very same day when I got home in the afternoon, one of my friends who does not speak English had stopped by and left a wrapped gift at my house. This friend had no idea where I had gone that same day and she had no awareness of the problems that I was going to discuss with the Provincial. I opened the gift and it was a beautiful hand made wooden artwork of St. Michael the Archangel lancing the spear into Satan. Recently Skai wrote something very beautiful about reading the lives of the Saints and having them be a part of our daily lives. Skai was right. That St. Michael the Archangel gift from my friend was another reminder that the Saints are to be incorporated into our lives. They are truly our friends who watch over us. They are not distant unless we choose to not become familiar with their many gifts and distance ourselves from them.
Eric, Many seem to have truly forgotten the extremely powerful role of St. Michael the Archangel and how valuable a protector he is for these difficult times in the Church and in the world. Pope Leo XII certainly recognized the important need for St. Michael the Archangel’s assistance.
AMEN –
Don’t forget St. Joseph. Pope Leo XIII “Quamquam pluries”
Great — everyone is a backseat driver on how to be a bishop!
It seems like in the old days, people had some respect for the Church and for the Magisterium, but now anyone with a computer is an expert on theology, management skills, liturgy, morals, and orthodoxy.
Michael, a lot of men have become front seat drivers, sort of sharing the wheel with weak or corrupt bishops. Hopefully this new bishop responds to the call by the popes to “become holy” and “practice what you preach”.
In other words Skai, you are helping to continue to spread scandal to the Church by complaining about the validly ordained bishops and priests of the Church.
jon, scandal is not what happened but why. If the bishops don’t like scandal, then let them become holy and practice what they preach. jon, you are an apologist for appearance and not for substance.
Oh, heck, let’s give the guy a chance!
Why? Let him rather prove his mettle.
Great News hearing that Bishop Barber is rock solid orthodox! The Salvation of Souls is the #1 priority of the Faith, the #2 priority in my opinion is to have the Mass completely orthodox. I propose that the Church have the Old Latin Mass as its norm but allow the OLd Latin Mass in the vernacular languages , this will bring back orthodox prayers and liturgical rubrics.
What will bring back is not form but substance. The two popes have called the bishops to holiness and to practice what they preach. I do not know why this is so difficult to comprehend as it is the basis for the advent of Jesus. The Commandments and the liturgy was already in place for over a thousand years before Jesus came, and it did not work. Only Jesus … in His bishops … can build the Church. He told us plainly, that He builds His church on the pope and bishops … but it won’t work when they are unholy hypocrites. You can doll up all you want, but it won’t get you closer to Heaven. What’s the ineffable saying? “You can paint a pig to look beautiful but it’s still a pig”.
ED, Why would the Church move backwards in time?
The true Church is timeless, and so it has no need to move either forwards or backwards. Jesus, who is in union with the true Church, is also named the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. He is timeless, and the Church is timeless. This is one more “snippet” from the Gospels that puts to shame the mundane, pedestrian talk of so many bishops who have no clue what Jesus is all about, and lethargically spend their talents on ridiculous things, details in comparison to their calling. Pray that bishops listen to the popes and become holy and practice what they preach.
Excellent response, Skai. Very well said.
WHat do you mean the CHurch is timeless? This is silliness. The Church, made up partly of living human beings, MOVES through time, as Jesus moved through time during his earthly life. One falsehood after another, Skai. Pathetic.
Thankyou, jon, for letting your cat out of the bag.
YFC, the Church is timeless. Only the modernist spirit fails to see this.
“Anonymous,” “Your Fellow Catholic,” and “Mark from PA”: Nope, not equivalent at all. The TLM, even the “John XXIII version” contains many elements of the earliest Church worship. It is a falsity perpetrated by the Vatican II crowd that the TLM was “created” by the Council of Trent and that something very different was in effect for the prior hundreds of years. Yes, using altar girls is unfair to girls in that it is clearly artificial, something like having girl wrestlers or girl football players on the local high school teams. They are there for political reasons, not spritiual; they serve, but to some are present as a placeholder for future “women priests”. Boys are central to the sacrifice of the mass, in that it becomes a way for them to possibly see the future, with them as young priests. Literature abounds with stories of priests that served at mass, something that can never happen to girls. (And, no, the “right” to serve at Mass does not exist). Finally, priests (mostly homosexual) that pray on (mostly) young altar boys, and who do not effectively repent, are very likely to be condemned to perdition. However, as sad and awful as this sin can be, it does not serve to support using altar girls, or take away from the valuable and wholesome bond that can, and does grow, between holy priests and altar boys. Qualifying the possibility of this type of relationship, by using altar girls, lessens the number of young men seeking to become priests.
St Christopher, I certainly agree with you when you say that the mass from Trent contains some of the elements of the earliest Church worship. True enough. So let’s keep those elements. The rest are add-ons and accretions distract some of us from the mystery of the Incarnation. And by the way, there are many of those earlier elements in the post VII masses, too.
Nothing Skai has articulated constitutes heresy Jon…be careful with the loaded words you use…lest you be judged…
On the contrary Rhodesian, condemning the sacraments of the Church IS HERESY. Skai’s condemnation of the Ordinary Form of the Mass is indeed borderline heresy, if not heresy already.
jon, you’re either certifiably stupid or you’re intentionally bearing false witness against me. Probably both. As I’ve bothered to past lay out clearly, you simply do not have much facility at reading and understanding what is being said. This problem could be some fixation on some idol such as ideology that blinds you or makes you what the blogging world would call a “retard”. Your only way out, jon, is by crawling on your knees to the Cross and hanging out there for a while, as much time as it takes for Heaven to straighten you out.
Skai, it is verifiable that you have condemned the Sacrament of the Mass no less than TWICE on this thread. That is heretical.
If it is “stupid” to defend the valid Sacraments of the Church (whether the Ordinary or Extraordinary Forms) then I will gladly be the stupidest person for folks like you who spew forth heretical statements!
Your calling the Ordinary Form as not leading and guiding the People of God is heretical! Your saying that the Ordinary Form is a vehicle for “cafeteriaism” and relativism.
Skai, you have in effect condemned the Sacraments of the Church. This is more than a “stupid” comment on your part. In fact, it’s heretical.
jon, what I’m saying of the novus ordo is that it is part of the overall scheme of Vatican II to cull the Church of the chaff, the deadwood, the hypocrites, the faithless. That liturgy itself is not bad, but it is simply sparse, whereas, God is bountiful. The TLM provides a bountiful spiritual experience; whereas, the novus ordo allows unimaginable abuses of man and God. If a novus ordo Mass is said reverently by a faithful priest, then it will move souls towards Heaven … but, jon, I’ve always opted for the best I could find, and I find that the TLM is vastly superior as a liturgical form, and thus provides a great great deal more accessibility for spiritual adventure during the Mass. I find the novus ordo a more suited for children than mature Catholics.
jon, do you know what the Lord said to about the devil? Jesus called the devil “the accuser”. This means that no matter what the reality, whatever the devil says is an accusation. You have never posted a blog that is not an accusation.
Skai, can you say “projection”?
And Skai, it is YOU who are accusing the shepherds of the Church here. I am here to point out the flaw in your reasoning.
jon, the shepherds of the Church are in disarray and many are corrupt … according to the Popes. Don’t you believe the Popes? Do you believe that Cdl Mahony was a good bishop in running a pedophile network? Would you serve as a temple prostitute in that network, or have you?
The Popes said the bishops were corrupt? The Popes have not done that. (Please don’t say that if a pope tells the bishops to be holy it means they are corrupt.) Cardinal Mahony ran a pedophile network? He has never been accused of that by the Church or the state or the local authorities.
Anonymous, if the bishops were holy, then they would not publicly be told to holy up. The word “holy” means set aside for the Lord. Why don’t you at least bother to learn what words mean, Anonymous, instead of acting like an idiot? Pope Francis made it more clear, by telling the bishops to stop being hypocrites and practice what they preach. Jesus tells us that hypocrites in high places are the worst vile scumbags ever … Anonymous, you can hide your head in the sand, which is exactly what the pedophile ring of Mahony … read the records he released, and which Abp Gomez commented on by saying Mahony had no excuse at all for extremely corrupting boys. Now how do you suppose he did it, Anonymous? The only way that is evident is by running a temple prostitution ring … look up the phrase in that Catholic Bible you’ve been memorizing for decades, Anonymous. And finally, please explain clearly why you are paid by Mahony to push some fantasy on others that he is a good man.
You are correct Proud Rhodesian
No matter the topic, it all boils down to homosexuals, the TLM, and gloom and doom. Those claiming orthodoxy should celebrate that Barber is another solid Bay Area appointment, one that makes the entire Bay Area one of the most orthodoxly pastored, if challenging, regions in the nation.
The bark of Peter is large and it does not tack like a dinghy, even if many posters are eager to throw enough people off to allow one to suffice.
Dear Brian S:
Don’t you know that homosexuals are inherently incapable of speaking Latin and therefore can never truly be faithful fellow catholics?! The sooner we rid the church of all people to can’t speak the Ancient Language, or people who dare to love one another, or who desire to deeply integrate the Gospel into their lives, if they do not mimic and quote the CCC at every turn, let them be cast from the Church as chaff!
YFC, your depressed emoting should not be cast aside, as it shows that you are preparing your soul for the good news of Jesus Christ. It shows that you now are realizing the need to ask instead of pontificate, seek instead of pretending you have it, and knock so that it shall be opened unto you … but you do not yet really understand what this means. But just hang in there, because Jesus did.
I’m a slow learner.
Brian S., you have to look past the homosexual element of the blogs and try to see the Church, because that is what most of us are talking about.
You right are Brian the homo-sex left is major source of most of the problems on the planet…..
Homo sapien is the major source of most of the problems on the planet.
Anonymous, my ancestors were all neanderthals and not sapiens, so I guess I’m ok. How about you?
Skai, it is doubtful that even you, dear Skai, descended from neanderthals. Some may also go on to doubt your relationship to sapiens, however.
Anonymous, your Calvinism has long been rejected by the Catholic Church. Man is good, was created “very good”, and as such is not the source of problems. Rather Jesus picked man to solve the problems, which man is doing … specifically man united with God through Jesus in the Holy Eucharist, a dogma of Catholicism. But of course, Anonymous, you would not know about that since you are not knowledgeable about Catholic faith.
I predict that, no matter what the new bishop does, says or encourages, a substantial portion of the regular posters here will not be happy, will consider him heterodox, will quote the CCC at him regularly, and find many reasons to take their usual complaints to Rome.
I will not be wrong in this!
McCrea, is your wager being looked at by the Vegas bookies yet? Are you taking bets? How much do you think you can make if you win?
Skai,
Pay very close attention to how the father of lies inspired Mr. McCrea to make that mocking statement about the CCC. Poor Jim needs an exorcism. The devil does not ask his minions to steal a podium from Kingdom Hall or grape juice and wafers from a Protestant Church. The devil inspires his minions to steal a consecrated host because he knows it is the True Presence. The devil does waste his evil time mocking anything that will not be a direct mocking of Christ. Skai, This is what I meant about teaching the fullness of the truth from the CCC in Catholic schools. Our nations Catholic schools are teaming with those who think just like Mr. McCrea. In other words…if the devil hates that CCC with such vitriol we know that it contains the truths that he is aggressively trying to suppress.
He didn’t mock the CCC. Why are you picking on this guy? Have you seen the things that the blogger you are addressing says about the CCC and the people here who quote it?
“He didn’t mock the CCC. Why are you picking on this guy? Have you seen the things that the blogger you are addressing says about the CCC and the people here who quote it?”
Anonymous birds of the same ruffled feathers surely love to defend confusion and error together.
Taken from San Francisco Catholic …’Marriage and the Bible’
“I recommend readers of Catholic San Francisco study John Boswell’s book, “Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality” (University of Chicago Press, 1980), in which he documents legally recognized homosexual marriage in ancient Rome extending into the Christian period, and his “Same-Sex Unions in Pre-modern Europe” (Villard Books, 1994), in which he discusses church-blessed same-sex unions and even an ancient Christian same-sex nuptial liturgy.”
Jim McCrea
Piedmont
Anonymous, you being sly like a serpent once again? That is your handle, and it’s obvious. Bitten anyone lately?
Catherine, I have now read his letter to the editor. I am not a bird of a feather. I am opposed to same sex unions or marriage. There is much error in his letter. Ad hominum attacks do nothing to defend the faith. If Mr. Crea would like to discuss his letter, we can do that. But it is not the subject here. And he did not mock the CCC. You should apologize to him and to me.
“There will come a day when posters will call evil good (when they can sometimes ambiguously and sometimes deliberately get away with it.) No one in their right state of mind would ever ask the relatives of those soldiers who were slaughtered in the Benghazi massacre to apologize to the evil forces who massacred their loved ones. We are facing a spiritual battle with steam rolling forces of evil arrogantly showing their hatred for God. Soldiers of Christ do not apologize to evil. Minions of evil do.
Woe to duplicitous and anonymous posters who apologize to evil while cleverly/ambiguously undermining our very faithful shepherds who *uphold* “all” Church teaching.
Isaiah5:20-23 (Douay-Rheims) Woe to you that call evil good, and good evil: that put darkness for light, and light for darkness: that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter. 21 Woe to you that are wise in your own eyes, and prudent in your own conceits. 22 Woe to you that are mighty to drink wine, and stout men at drunkenness. 23 That justify the wicked for gifts, and take away the justice of the just from him.
“Soldiers of Christ do not apologize to evil.” If someone is a soldier of Christ, they know that they must apologize to anyone that they wrong. To err is human… I will forgive you anyway.
I think what these strange bloggers are doing, Catherine, is trying to polarize the CCC. Thus, when I provide perspective and mind challenging comments on the CCC, these strangers to Catholicism attempt to accuse me of dissing it. Not the case, but they attempt to make something out of the CCC that it is not. They attempt to make the CCC into the teacher instead of a teaching tool, which Pope Emeritus has called it. That is what some evangelicals do to the Bible, divinize it.
I do not wish to polarize the CCC, Skai. And I am sorry for dragging your past posts into it. Your perception of the CCC, obviously, is not the same as mine or as other bloggers. The CCC is a sure norm and the Bible in the infallible Word of God.
ANother wrong statement from SKai. WHat is the difference between a “teaching” tool and a “teacher”? NOTHING! Both teach! THe Catechism teaches the truth of the faith!
jon, if you really cannot tell the difference between protestantism and Catholicism, between a book and a human being, then you should have a page in Ripley’s Believe It or Not.
Catherine, yes, McCrea’s blog seems strange.
McCrea: And I bet you will the NCR ilk will be complaining that he isn’t “pastoral”and has abandoned the “spirit of vatican 2”
McCrea – quotes from the CCC help to make certain that error, heresy, schism and relativism are not taught anywhere including in posted public media.
If any Bishop violates any part of the CCC, he must be told by the Christian Faithful – per Code of Canon Law – 212 #3.
If you support error, heresy, schism and relativism – it is understandable that you would not want the CCC or Code of Canon Law quoted.
“ The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved … and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. “ – Pope John Paul II. (CCC page 5)
“….the Catechism has raised throughout the world, even among non-Christians, and confirms its purpose of being presented as a full, complete exposition of Catholic doctrine, enabling everyone to know what the Church professes, celebrates, lives, and prays in her daily life.” – Pope John Paul II (CCC page xiv)
If a bishop or priest is bouncing around on the floor of the CCC, then it does not say much for his faith.
Take note, jon and Anonymous, that what the Pope writes is what I say in my blogs. What ANNA prefaces her quotes of the Pope accords with what I have been posting about the CCC. jon and Anonymous do not know what the CCC provides because of their skewed beliefs. I don’t see either one of them as exercising any faith in Jesus Christ. All jon does is whine and rant about his living magisterium and how there should be no death penalty. Anonymous rants about he or she is incapable of understanding anything, and then sides with jon. But Anonymous has no idea what jon is talking about, and thus follows absurdity, while whining and complaining about anything posted which does not exalt sodomy … and also while also hypocritically claiming to oppose sodomy. jon, Anonymous and McCrea, the Three Buffoons.
In order to have a sacrifice you need an altar stone…an altar table will not suffice…in order to celebrate “the unbloody sacrifice of our Lord”, you need an “altar stone”…do all parishes have an altar stone?…”table’s”, which are used for a common meal, don’t count?
Rhodesian, in some circumstances the actual stone requirement can be waived, such as in a war front where jeep hoods can suffice. But the way you word your post somehow opens up an interesting question … what and why the nature of the altar?
Jon, you sound like a MODERNIST!…are you?
‘To seek to reconcile the faith with the modern spirit leads much further than people think, not only to the weakening of the faith, but to its total loss.’
Pope St. Pius X, May 27th A.D. 1914
Would it not be nice if everyone on this site prayed that the new Bishop will do great things for the church of Oakland. There are so many opportunities for him. He can increase the use of the free clinic at the Cathedral and spread it out to the poorer sections of the Diocese. He can encourage support of Catholic Charities at the parish level so that all people in need receive the need they deserve. He can bring his priests together and end the split between the parish priest and the chancery.
Seek first the Kingdom of God and all else shall be added thereunto, Bob One. This is why the popes are calling for bishops to “become holy” and “to practice what they preach”.
“Your Fellow Catholic”: Unfortunately, my friend, there may be a word or phrase here and there, but, by and large, it is a concoction by Protestant-leaning clergy who simply wanted the “Medieval” Church to end and new “modern” Catholic Church to take its place. In fact, the modernists have tried to re-write everything, including the calendar, almost all prayers and worship (they even tried to change the rosary, although Paul VI was rumored to have stopped that; at least until JPII came along and added the “Luminous” mysteries; perhaps MLB can come up with the “Baseball” mysteries at some point soon). Read any one of the writings by Michael Davies, including “Liturgical Shipwreck”. With the knowledge of its provenance, it is a complete mystery why the Church even keeps the N.O., except that certain bishopric groups, such as the Germans and Austrians, are rumored to have threatened a complete schism if the Pope said the TLM or took steps to force its renewal. Face the facts — it is a modern thing, made up to appease People Magazine Catholics that cannot face the serious and discipline needed for proper Catholic worship. Is it licit? Yes, apparently so, in that the Pope has effectively commanded its use. Is likely what future generations of Catholics will embrace? Not hardly. Instead we have N.O. generated bishops simply directing others to do what they were directed to do, without thinking, without praying. Listen to Bishop Sample and others that have discovered tradition and then decide. It is NOT simply a “I like Chocolate, I like Vanilla” type of decision.
SKai, if there is no such thing as “borderline” heresy, then that means that your statements are heretical.
jon, you need to send letters: one, to my pastor, one to my bishop, one to the papal nuncio, one to any Vatican congregation, and one to the Pope, and one to each of the diocesan newspapers, and websites. Then, jon, you’ll need to repair to Mt Athos and take up a live of penance and prayer for the rest of your days, and may they be long and fruitful.
I don’t need to do anything Skai. You however NEED to adhere to the mind and will of the Pope, the bishops, and the validly ordained clergy of the Church. Adhere to the Catechism and stop spewing heresies on this blog.
jon, everyone needs to do something; so, why is it that you do not need to do anything? Is it that you have no needs? The only other one I know who has no needs is God. Are you likening yourself to God, jon?
I’ll send them: Who’s your pastor and who is your bishop?
Notice that Skai didn’t answer. I’d send the same letters. Heresy wrapped in piety is still heresy.
Heresy by Skai: “But even when the novus ordo is said by holy priests, it still lacks a great deal.”
Get this straight Skai: THERE IS NOTHING LACKING in the valid and legitimate celebration of the Sacraments. NOTHING LACKING!
DO you get that? There is a lot lacking when the SSPX for example celebrates the Mass. What it lacks is legitimacy!
But as for validly ordained clergy who are in union with the Pope, there is NOTHING lacking in the Sacraments. QUIT your heresies.
jon, what don’t you get about “Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God”? The novus ordo sermons and many sermons leave out a lot of words that proceed from the mouth of God … the novus ordo is like God speaking and no one hearing it all due to liturgical obstructions including omitting some of what God intends to be said. In your case, jon, I’d suggest you try a Blues Brothers chuch service … might be just up your alley.
This folks is Skai condemning the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist in the Ordinary Form. THIS is heretical. No valid and licit Sacrament of the Church obfuscate and leave ANYTHING that is from the grace of God. Heresy, Skai, you spew out heresy here. You will have to answer for this on the Day of Judgment.
Skai, if you see this, here is my problem with what you wrote May 9 10:33 pm.. There are over 40,000 priests just in the US. You could not possibly know what they said in their sermons. It is unreasonable for you to state that “many sermons leave out a lot of words that proceed from the mouth of God.” Also, we are supposed to believe that the prayer of the Mass is from the Holy Spirit. Both the Ordinary and the Extraordinary Forms are from the Holy Spirit. The English translation of it was recently updated to a more literal translation. I don’t know what you mean by liturgical obstructions. If prayers are ommitted that is liturgical abuse, but it is not the form of the Rite that is at fault.
Eastern Orthodox Churches have valid sacraments and the SSPX is more valid than some the NO masses I have seen
More valid? It is either valid or invalid. SSPX masses are valid but illicit.
jon, St Thomas Aquinas always said that he lacked total virtue … This is called humility, which should be your first step out of sin.
Both the Ordinary Form and the Extraordinary Form (Latin) of the Mass are Holy – the Body and Blood of our Lord at each Mass.
CCC: ” 2089 ….. HERESY is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; …..
SCHSIM is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”
The number of saints that worshiped and were fed the sacraments at the TLM is overwhelming…one could say that that it was the primary vehicle, that drove them to sainthood and ultimately Heaven. The roll call of saint’s…the litany of martyr’s who died for the Church and shed their blood, that the TLM mass would continue to be celebrated is staggering…and an overwhelming source of humility and reflection for all the Catholic faithful…
Seldom do I hear any Litany at all. The first time I ever heard a Litany (which was that of Blessed Mary Ever Virgin), my decision was instantly made to enter the Church. This Litany answered my primary question. We all have “primary” questions, and there are many of them. There are many facits in holy Litanies that engage many individual hearts.
To: Anonymous: I read your comments regarding the Latin mass. You leave me with the impression that you regard my reluctance to embrace
the novus ordo stems from my ignorance of the development of the rituals we have come to accept over time in the Roman Church. I am fully aware that the early Christians did not celebrate the mass in Latin. If you are really interested in how the mass developed in the medieval world you should acquaint yourself with Father Joseph A. Jungmann’s book “The Mass of the Roman Rite”, which represents the most exhaustive treatment of the subject ever assembled. There have been many forms of masses over the centuries in many different countries, and variations of them practiced by different religious orders. There have been many changes, it is true, but none as drastic and disturbing as those introduced by the novus ordo, which have vulgarized the mass almost beyond retrieval. I find nothing solemn and inspiring in the novus ordo. It was never intended to be such. It’s purpose was to create a Calvinist-like prayer service, as its creator, Ab Annibale Bugnini, freely admitted.
Thank you for the reference. I will seek it out.
jon, have you ever been to a TLM?