The following comes from a Dec. reposting on Rorate Caeli blog site, translated from Italian by Fr. Richard Cipolla.
[The following article by the most influential religious analyst in Italy, Vittorio Messori (main editor, among others, of the Ratzinger Report and of John Paul II’s Crossing the Threshold of Hope), has caused great sensation in Italy since its publication in the Italian paper of record, Corriere della Sera, on Christmas Eve.]
I believe that honesty demands I admit it from the first: perhaps I am abusing the space given to me by my putting forth more than an article but rather what is a personal reflection. I confess that I would have willingly put off writing this, if I had not been asked to do so. Yes, I would have put it off, because my own (and not only my own) appraisal of this pope oscillates continually between support and perplexity, a judgment that changes according to the moment, or a particular occasion, or in relation to subjects that are discussed. A Pope who was not expected. For what it is worth, I was among those who were waiting for a South American and someone who is pastoral, someone with experience of everyday governance, a sort of balance for an admirable professor, a theologian too refined for certain palates, like the beloved Joseph Ratzinger. A Pope who was not expected, but who quickly, right from that very first “Buonasera” has shown himself to be nothing anyone could have forseen, so much so as to make some of the Cardinals who elected him to gradually change their minds about him.
This quality of “not knowing what to expect” continues, agitating the tranquility of the ordinary Catholic who is accustomed to not think too much about faith and morals and who has been exhorted to “follow the Pope”. Indeed, but which Pope? The one who gives daily homilies in Santa Marta, the preaching of a parish priest of the old days, with good counsel and wise proverbs, with even firm warnings to not fall into the traps of the devil? Or the one who telephones Giacinto Marco Pannella, who was in the midst of one of his innocuous fasts, and who greets him with “Keep up the good work”! when for decades the “work” of this radical leader consisted of and still consists of preaching that true charity lies in the battle for divorce, abortion, euthanasia, homosexuality for all, gender theory and the like? The Pope who recently in a talk given to the Roman Curia sounded like Pius XII with conviction (but really like Saint Paul himself) defining the Church as “the mystical Body of Christ”? Of the one who, in the first interview with Eugenio Scalfari, ridiculed whoever might have thought that “God is Catholic”, as if the one, holy, apostolic Roman Church were an option, an accessory to somehow get to the Holy Trinity according to one’s personal tastes? The Argentine Pope who is aware, through direct experience, of the drama of Latin America that is on its way to becoming an ex-Catholic continent, with the exodus in mass of its people to Pentecostal Protestantism? Or the Pope who flies to embrace and wish good success to a dear friend, a pastor actually in one of the communities that are emptying out Catholic communities and doing so exactly with that proselytism that he condemned among his own flock?
One could go on, naturally, with these facets that appear—and perhaps truly are—contradictory. One could, but that would not be right for the believer. They know that they are not to see the Pontiff as an elected president of a republic, or like a king, the heir to another king. Certainly, in a conclave, those instruments of the Holy Spirit, within the context of faith, are the cardinal electors who share the limits, the errors, yes, even the sins that are the mark of all of humanity. But the one and true head of the Church is Christ himself, all powerful and all knowing, who knows a bit better than we do what would be the better choice as regards to his representative at this time in this world. This choice can appear disconcerting to the limited vision of those of us who live at this time, but that in the future, from an historical perspective, it will be revealed why this was the right choice. The one who really knows history is surprised and pensive when he discovers that –in the perspective of two thousand years, which is the Catholic perspective—every Pope, whether he is aware of it or not, has carried out the role he was meant to and, in the end, how things were meant to turn out.
Precisely because of this awareness I have chosen, for my part, to observe, listen and to reflect without hazarding adopting opinions that are intemperate or even reckless. I go back to that question that has been cited too often out of its context: “Who am I to judge?” I am on the same plane as everyone else, just one man. I am not assisted by the “pontifical charisma”, the assistance that is promised by the Paraclete. And to the one who would want to judge, does not the full approval of the “Pope Emeritus” (so different in style, formation and understanding of what needs to be done), repeated many times, in speech and in writing, of what Francis is doing count for nothing?
It is a terrible responsibility for the one who is called today to respond to the question: “ How can we bring the message of the Gospel to contemporary man? How can we show that Christ is not a faded and remote ghost, but is the human face of that creator God who is Savior, who wants to give meaning to life and death to all?” There are many responses to these questions, often contrasting with each other.
Even if it counts but little, after decades of working within the Church, I may well have my own answers to these questions. I may well, I say: the use of the conditional tense here is obligatory, because nothing and no one makes me certain of having had a glimpse of the right way to go. Would I not be taking the risk of becoming perhaps like the blind man in the Gospels who wanted to lead others who were blind and all ended up in the ditch? And so, certain pastoral choices made by the “Bishop of Rome”, as he prefers to call himself, persuade me; but others seem to leave me perplexed, they seem to me to be opportunistic, even seeming to be of a brand of populism that generates an interest that is as vast as it is superficial and ephemeral. I might prefer that there be other matters with greater sense of priority and content that would in hope result in an apostolate that is more fertile. I should hope, I should think so, all in the conditional, I repeat, as a perspective of faith demands where even a lay person (as in Canon Law) can express his thoughts and concerns, as long as they are well considered and well motivated, on the ways and means of evangelization I will leave, however, the general strategy and, above all, the custody of the depositum fidei up to the man who came out from the conclave dressed in white. In any case, I have not forgotten how Francis himself recalled in that harsh address to the Curia that it is easy to criticize priests, but how many pray for them? I want to also remember that he, on this earth, is the “first” among priests. And so, I ask of all those who adopt a critical stance those prayers at which the world laughs, but which guide, in secret, the destiny of the Church and the whole world.
To read the original English version, click here.
What I know of the Pope comes from various sources, some of whom actually agree. What I don’t know would fill volumes.
Yet – Francis is the Bishop of Rome, and what he says matters – particularly in light of Pope Emeritus Benedict’s Report (who long ago warned of ‘professional Catholicism’), which is apparently quite a doozy.
Like Many i am both Apprehensive and Hopeful Changes coming will strengthen the Church & the Wise Moral Teachings of the Magisterium.
Like many I am wary of insiders who have built cozy nests with donations meant to help those on the margins of the world.
I Pray that Francis is the Man to start the journey of redemption We Must All Follow:
“Pope Francis warns Vatican leaders against ‘spiritual Alzheimer’s’
Pope Francis and the senior governing cardinals, bishops and priests of the Vatican (the Curia) —met this year. Francis brought – a 15-point “catalog” of spiritual diseases he’s seen among leadership..
– roughly the equivalent of a CEO sending his or her top executives off to Christmas vacation with a cleverly-worded list of everything they do wrong at the company.
The list included “spiritual Alzheimer’s,” “spiritual petrification,” a feeling of being “immortal,” and “funereal face,” a concept Francis referred to this month, urging followers to prepare for Christmas with “joy,”
The pope blasted gossiping among officials as a form of “satanic assassination.”
He said: “Sometimes, [officials of the Curia] feel themselves ‘lords of the manor’ – superior to everyone and everything.”
Jesus’ words and actions perplexed even the saintly John the Baptizer, provoking him to ask “are you the One who is to come or are we to wait for another?”Perhaps when the Holy Spirit acts anew in the world we may feel unease in some ways. I admire Messori’s caution against rush to judgment and complaint.
Very well-written! However– is this Pope actually a heretic? I think the highest post-Vatican II Church leaders, do not understand and practice their religion deeply and sincerely enough! They surely must know, that Christ’s Gospel– is not a piece of cake, not the so-called “Good News,” for those who are obstinately disobedient and unrepentent, and disinterested! (For them, it is all actually “Bad News!”) Christ’s Gospel, or “Good News,” is for those with the Faith and sincerity to carefully listen to the Good Shepherd, and do exactly as He says! Christ is not of this world! He is of Heaven, and to Heaven, is where He is leading us all! So– now do we really, truly, want to be His followers? Yes– or no?? And why must a Pope lie about it? Tell it like it is! Christ’s school of religion, is NOT EASY!! And many saints even had to die for it– including, all of the original Apostles! So– now, who wants to follow Jesus?? Pope Francis, now what do you truly say, in all honesty??
It is possible that many high ranking CLERGY do not accurately know the Doctrine of the Faith as required of all Catholics – which is in the CCC.
And clearly they have never read the CCC themselves, and do not encourage others to do so.
Formation of Priests in ALL Catholic Seminaries must become a Priority – using Sacred Scripture and the CCC as the main required thrust,
NOT using heretics Origen, Von Balthazar, and Karl Rahner.
All Priests should be required to learn the OF and the EF Masses to best serve the People of God.
I AGREE JAMES God bless you. Now some facts taken from someone who did honest research
“As a secondary note, if one can overcome the condemned errors subscribed to by the SSPX regarding the Infallibility of the Pope and dutiful obedience, there is the burden of proving the validity of “Archbishop” Lefebvre’s ordination to the priesthood. Lefebvre was ordained a “priest” by an excommunicated priest (Achille Lienart) who became a Freemason (automatic excommunication) before his promotion to become Bishop. Hence, Lienard was an excommunicated priest attempting to confer the priesthood on Lefebvre. The necessary and dreadful consequence is there can be no valid priests in the Society of Saint Pius X. Herein lies another answer to the lack of sanctity in their organization.
Clarity is a gift from God.
Confusion is the work of the devil.
Confusion causes or adds to Scandal.
CCC: ” 2285 SCANDAL takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized.
It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.”
Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others.
Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing.”
(For more on scandal see: CCC 2284, 2286, & 2326.)
CARDINAL GEORGE, Nov., 2014 regarding Pope Francis:
QUOTE: “The question is raised, why doesn’t he himself clarify these things ? Why is it necessary that apologists have to bear that burden of trying to put the best possible face on it ?
Does he not realize the consequences of some of his statements, or even some of his actions ?
Does he not realize the repercussions ? Perhaps he doesn’t.
I don’t know whether he’s conscious of all the consequences of some of the things he’s said and done that raise these doubts in people’s minds. ” UNQUOTE.
Cardinal George sure got that right !
Code of CANON LAW under ” OBLIGATIONS AND RIGHTS OF ALL THE CHRISTIAN FAITHFUL “. #212
” §2. The Christian faithful are free to make known to the pastors of the Church their needs, especially spiritual ones, and their desires. ”
” §3. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church
and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful,
without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons. ”
Also see CCC #907.
CCC: ” 186 From the beginning, the apostolic Church expressed and handed on her faith in brief formula normative for all.
But already very early on, the Church also wanted to gather the essential elements of her faith into organic and articulated summaries, intended especially for candidates for Baptism:
This synthesis of faith was NOT made to accord with human OPINIONS,
but rather what was of the greatest importance was gathered from all the Scriptures,
to present the one teaching of the faith in its entirety.
And just as the mustard seed contains a great number of branches in a tiny grain, so too this summary of faith encompassed in a few words the whole knowledge of the true religion contained in the Old and the New Testaments. “
All Catholics posting must write in accord with the TRUTH.
Not spreading lies, remotely participating in the sins of others, or causing scandal which all can be Mortal Sins.
The TRUTH of the Catholic Faith is contained in Sacred Scripture and the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, second edition”.
Use these as your sources.
CCC: ” 1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:
– by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
– by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
– by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
– by protecting evil-doers. “
JESUS said “FEW” will be Saved. Mt 7:13-14; Lk 13:23-28.
EPH 2:8 ” For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God”.
Do not be confused. Do not throw away your faith due to Scandal or false teaching by anyone.
Cling to a Catholic Bible and the CCC for educated accuracy.
Do not follow any wolves in sheep’s clothing.
In the history of the Church of our 267 Popes, 12 have been evil including Alexander VI who was a Borgia and fathered Lucrezia and others, and Benedict IX who was a playboy.
We might be able to better accept this stance of non judgmental compassion if it was at least consistent, but it is not. His harsh words for some groups like the mafia being on the road to hell if they don’t repent, and his clear disdain for pro life “workers” and other “traditionalists” along with his rhetoric that gives the sodomites, Marxists and other leftists comfort, inevitably followed by liberal doses of damage control is troubling to say the least. When it comes to clearly expressing the simple truth, many humble parish priests, even young school children, are somehow able to do so with no trouble at all. We are growing weary of constantly having to make excuses, and creating sophisticated defenses for our current Pope.
Adhering to the teachings of JESUS, accuracy, and consistency are all important.
Thank you JAMES/OSCAR/MADDIE/JOSE
Here’s thoughts from a Catholic website expressing truth:
A “Letter to benefactors”
In December of 2013 the superior of the SSPX seminary in the United States had this blatantly heretical statement in his “Letters to benefactors: “The Christ who incarnated Himself in Our Lady now wants to be incarnated in our lives”. It is clear in many catechisms and in the Nicene Creed that Our Lord, Jesus Christ, was “Conceived by the Holy Ghost” the third Person of the Blessed Trinity. This blatant heresy appeared to be a test against their laity to see how far they can go with their blinded sheep. As far as we know there has been no outcry against it.
These were our primary reasons for permanently taking leave of the Society of Saint Pius X. Though there may be decent people associated with them all we can do is pray God enlighten these people so they can see and acknowledge Catholic truth and distinguish it from falsehood.
Bless you, Abeca! I, too, read this letter, and understand the English and manner of expressions, by the European priest, who wrote it. His native language is not English, of course! And his manner of expression is in a different culture, too– possibly French?? Anyway, I enjoy his writing style, and good English! I think he is absolutely correct, regarding the way he expressed the Incarnation! Please do re-read his Christmas letter! You might also write this priest, and ask him all of your questions! I am sure he would love to answer all of them! Bless you, Abeca, because I see you are truly a good Catholic! I just happen to have different information, on the SSPX, so that is what I go by. I am wondering, if maybe someday, the SSPX will legally be admitted by the Pope into full Catholic communion, similar to our Eastern-Rite churches that are in full communion, or the new Anglian branch of our Church, too. Our parents, grandparents, and all our forefathers, believed and practiced the Faith the same way, as the SSPX!! What is the harm, in that? Vatican II was also “pastoral,” not theological, in focus– as they all say.
Linda Marie: VII was as much theological as any prior Council. All councils have doctrinal elements and pastoral elements, and yes, SSPX can rejoin whenever they want. They simply have to obey the doctrine and discipline of the Roman Pontiff. It is doctrinal differences that keep them from Communion, not pastoral issues.
Taken from a Catholic website, although I do not approve or disapprove all its contents but they sure give food for thought and have articles like we have on this website, lets now be fair and not only displaying the hurtful things that go on in our church but also lets tell the truth that the SSPX is not as perfect either especially more so since they are not in full communion: Continued:
Abeca, why are you trying to change the subject to the SSPX from the topic of the Article and Pope Francis ?
They are unrelated.
JAMES why are you trying to silence me. You never said anything before from other articles when those from the SSPX have brought up other topics. WELL IT DOES NOT MATTER…..
“lets now be fair and not only displaying the hurtful things that go on in our church but also lets tell the truth that the SSPX is not as perfect either especially more so since they are not in full communion:”
You do not care about “full communion”. Today the truth finally comes out. So THIS is what YOU are bitter about. You have always resented CCD for exposing the scandals and errors within the Church. What are you hiding? The poster who used the name k also tried to silence CCD too. That was a big red flag. You often criticized the editors Abeca for leaving something out of one of your posts or for posting certain stories. You claim to care about the salvation of souls and when you were given the opportunity to show visiting members from the SSPX that the faith was still being defended and to charitably welcome them to return, instead, you called your brothers and sisters in Christ vicious names and you defended the militant homosexual activist and activism and when that did not work you decided to ignore the reality that even the Holy See is currently charitably dialoguing with the SSPX. You have not been consistent. There is charity for militant homosexual activism but zero tolerance in charity shown to the sheep who have been deliberately scattered. Jesus spoke charitably about the sheep who had been scattered.
If a member of the SSPX posted here, I do not recall it.
SSPX is a priestly fraternity. There are no lay members.
If one of their priests posted here, he did not identify himself as such.
I do not know what prompted Abeca Christian to re-post the things she found on the internet about the SSPX, but they hurt no one and may keep someone from going astray.
Its a lie what Catherine is saying about me not caring….its because I do care, that I did my research and I am protected by our Lord to find the truth and I see that the SSPX have caused a great wrong. Now we have people defending their bad actions turning a blind eye to even some of the heresies that they are now calling Catholic. When people say that their “wrong is right” and that Christ’s “right is wrong” then Archbishop Fulton Sheen was correct about what he taught about the truth and about people who do not know their faith.
The actions of SSPX and as they continue in their heresies, they are causing more harm than good. The devil wants to destroy Christi’s church not only from the inside but also from the outside! We the lay faithful need to amour ourselves with the truth. Learn your faith:
1. Catechism, CCC
2. Bible, St. Jerome once said ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ.
3. Writings, teachings from the saints
4. Pray and fast
5. Be holy and faithful to the Magesterium, not breaking away
6. and most important above all….love and trust in Jesus! etc
Abeca, you didn’t address the reality that you lied about where that information you posted came from. Take responsibility for yourself and stop it already. That said, YOU are causing more harm than good. And once folks actually learn more about the issue, it will speak volumes about the crisis inside the Church. And that is what we all should be fighting against, Abeca, not looking for imaginary dragons. The real ones are bad enough.
Abeca still hasn’t addressed how she just defamed Pope Francis and placed him in the same category of others she is also trying to attack. Something else is going on here. I agree with RR. I always thought that Abeca was the sweetest poster. I did always think it was odd that she had an anonymous pilot fish, ( who always ran interference for the homosexual agenda) bolstering her immediate canonization but I loved her too until the truth became too obvious. We see that Abeca just sloppily posted as “anonymous”. Throughout the years there were various very inappropriate vulgar comments that were almost strategically thrown in to see if anyone was paying attention. One particular post was quite salacious in unnecessary detail especially for a married woman dialoguing on a Catholic website with a single man. Something else is going on here and as Ann Malley pointed out, when YFC (who BTW mocked the Miraculous Medal by saying he did not believe in “superstitious metals” ) pretends to care about spiritual experiences. Tracy even corrected YFC and explained the meaning or the significance of the Miraculous Medal. YFC, k or anonymous are now the ardent supporters. Perhaps they are all the same. Pay attention to the posters who all of the sudden develop some unusual or personal maladies that allow them time to temporarily disappear to reassess how they are going to post things.
continued from January 6, 2015 at 12:55 pm
Now the very same YFC troll who mocked my asking him if he would consider wearing the Miraculous Medal is protecting the poster who humbly announced to the entire blogosphere that she even beat out her entire family in “smelling the roses FIRST”. I think that Ann Malley was right on target when she talked about that FEARED burr. I guess there isn’t as great a threat from the few that attend an independent chapel vs. fearing a greater number of catechized faithful Catholics being reunited with Rome. How lacking in faith, hope and charity is Abeca when she loves to repeat that a holy priest once told her that it is easier to convert an atheist than a schismatic. I am not calling Ann a schismatic either, which BTW is not very “pastoral” Abeca, especially if you are trying to ask someone to be united with Rome. When Ann Malley posts I hear all of the rich beautiful teachings that I was taught over the years by my parents and by faithful priests and faithful sisters. Our previous bishop who is in “full communion with Rome” asked our priests to support homosexual domestic partnerships and I would never say that it was impossible to reach out to or to convert him. Neither should a priest who Abeca calls holy. Always remember the good thief when showing Christ’s example of mercy Abeca.
Catherine thank you for including me in your most recent diatribe. It is true, however. I state for the record and quite publicly that I do not believe in miraculous metal. I’m pretty sure Jesus never asked us to give to God any metal that is Ceasars. You, on the other hand, who have neither silver nor gold, ought to command the lame to walk.
YFC writes: “I’m pretty sure Jesus never asked us to give to God any *metal* that is Ceasars. You, on the other hand, who have neither silver nor gold, ought to command the lame to walk.”
The word is medal.
The Miraculous Medal was created in response to a request from the Blessed Virgin Mary.
The Meaning of the Miraculous Medal: Mary’s Design Symbolizes Key Elements of the Catholic Faith
The Association of the Miraculous Medal, in Perryville, Mo., notes that there is no superstition or magic connected with the Miraculous Medal, nor is it “a good luck charm.” Rather, it is “a testimony to faith and the power of trusting prayer. Its greatest miracles are those of patience, forgiveness, repentance, and faith.”
To obtain a free Miraculous Medal, write to the Association of the Miraculous Medal, 1811 W. St. Joseph St., Perryville, MO, 63775.
The faith of which is not even mentioned in the Catechism. In fact, the only related reference to it comes in the section under “popular piety”, at the end of a long list of local religious actions following such things as “religious dances”. The observance of popular pieties are not binding on the faithful, Catherine.
Abeca your wanting to argue with people is not appropriate.
When (and only when) there is an article related to the SSPX just provide the link to the OFFICAL Church statement on the Vatican web site. This is truth, not people’s opinion and not argumentative.
SSPX has nothing to do with the article above, which leaves one to believe that your motives are suspect – either to change the subject or start arguments distracting from the real topic.
The article has to do with Pope Francis’s style of public contact, and the Doctrine of the Faith.
Well said, Paul.
its all interesting….well let the truth be said. PAUL where were you when the name calling began, give thanks to those who give a blind eye, to the hypocrisy to the bad behavior. I am for the truth…I thought you were too…..you watch people here argue all day about V2, yet you are OK with that? Lets even things out now and expose their double standards. Dana are you looking for an argument, because I am not. You need to open you eye’s and not be fooled. God help us all.
Abeca, we’re all deeply concerned with the problems that beset the Church, but I wish you were more concerned with what is taking place in Rome, rather than on this website. You haven’t talked about your family, or your mum etc for months. Life is so short…theres so much suffering in the world. Frankly, I find your obsession with the SSPX inexplicable. I think it’s more about your feelings being hurt. Don’t worry about what Catherine and others believe. We are all adults and responsible for our choices. Lets just agree to disagree and move on because such negativity isn’t good for anyone. God loves you so much. Rejoice! :)
Well Dana while you were giving a blind eye to Ann and Catherine, if I try to share my faith, they will mock and use name calling to shut me up. I think Dana that prayer needs to be a main focal point for all and holiness. Our faith is all about salvation issues, and the SSPX way of spreading its heresies have contributed to more problematic complex issues we are now facing in the church and in the world.
You’e not spreading just your Faith, Abeca, but falsehoods about a priestly society that holds to what the Church has always taught. Nobody is ‘turning a blind eye’ but perhaps just not agreeing with your position. And that’s okay.
Continued: SAINT MARYS, KANSAS
In their “capitol city”, Saint Marys, Kansas, United States, we have been witness to what has come to be known as the “Shakespeare Festival”. A play once or twice a year has become a big event. Is there not enough history in the Illustrious Catholic Church to present the people with the wholesome entertainment of a Catholic play? Is there not enough recorded detail of the martyrdom of Saints Perpetua and Felicity? How about the various apparitions of Our Lady? Bishop Ullathrone (A Bishop in England during the Vatican Council) has recorded many of the dialogues between Maxim and Melanie of La Salette and their questioners. Can this not be artfully displayed in a production worthy of the title, Catholic? Must we resort to profane authors for our entertainment? Is comedy and romance evidence of Catholicity?
The Shakespeare Festival appears to be a necessary consequence of the false teachings instilled in the laity of the SSPX. It is a laity run enterprise. However, the “clergy” approved plays are in many ways, worse. They too do not display edifying Catholicism. They are oftentimes rehearsed and acted out during Lent, causing the participants to concentrate on their play rehearsals and not on a holy Lent. In 2012 & 2013 they sold raffle tickets during Lent for a new car! Is this promoting the spirit of Christ or the spirit of materialism? Nay, they are embedding the spirit of materialism during Lent!
God love you, Abeca, but you’re at it again. Go ahead and tear at what you don’t understand and embrace evil under the guise of charity and browbeating those who could help the Church very much Now you’re going after Shakespeare plays…. and even the notion of practicing the utmost of Marian imitation. What do you think it means to be Marian in your daily life? That being said, Christ Himself took flesh entirely from Our Lady as He had no earthly father. So being like unto Mary is a very good thing.
But again, you’re doing nothing but advertising. (Or do you really think a Shakespeare play is evil during Lent? Come on.)
Ann Malley, Abeca, and Catherine, please take your conversation about the SSPX away from this article.
People are sick of the cat fighting all the time. You are all driving people away from this web site. Maybe you all need a “time out” for a few days. Sometimes it is better to ignore those who purposely start arguments.
The Church has spoken about the SSPX, and until something OFFICIALLY changes and is printed on the Vatican web site we’ve all had enough fighting already.
Actually, Anonymous, I’ve noticed an increase in new posters. Having said as much, I’ll do my utmost to dispel slander when I see it on CCD. You may not feel the need, but I do.
And it is precisely such slander and shunting hidden agendas to the dark places – that are connected – that does much damage to all. So if you’d like the attention off of the SSPX, you may want to address Abeca directly for she is bent on bringing it up. Regardless of what is official or not.
That too is a problem within the Church as many go off on what is unofficial and have used that to create much of the rot that is why the laity are being FORCED to speak out.
Then rather than your personal opinion, provide “OFFICAL” documentation from the:
Bible, CCC, GIRM, Code of Canon Law, or the Vatican web site.
(Links to the CCC, GIRM, Code of Canon Law are available on the Vatican web site.)
Personal opinions can merely be argumentative, and people believe that one person’s opinion is just as good as another.
Personal opinions whether ours or that of journalists mean very little if trying to prove a point.
PETE I have to address your comments because your comments can be misconstrued. First off, when people of good will give their opinions on matters of faith that are in line with the faith, it is not just opinions it is wisdom and reasoning capabilities of what our Lord has given human beings to pass on the faith. How do you think St. Thomas Aquinas defended the faith? He had a gift to reason within line of our beautiful faith. Mostly here is not my own opinions but they are in truth with what the church teaches especially in line with being in full communion. My comments are formed by Christ’s church, by what holy priests have taught me, what the saints have handed down to us. They are my zeal of love that I have for Jesus and HIS CHURCH. Its about saving souls and talking to humans just like St. Paul has taught when reaching out to people. Sorry that you are displeased but I said nothing against Mother church instead I am obeying the call to correct error.
Re.: “The Church has spoken about the SSPX, and until something OFFICIALLY changes and is printed on the Vatican web site we’ve all had enough fighting already.”The Church has spoken about the SSPX, and until something OFFICIALLY changes and is printed on the Vatican web site we’ve all had enough fighting already. Here is what a now canonized Doctor of the Church who was actually excommunicated by his Arian Pope had to say about his times, times that are very familiar to out present times: St. Athanasius the Great
“I know moreover that not only this thing saddens you, but also the fact that while others have obtained the churches by violence, you are meanwhile cast out from your places. For they hold the places, but you the Apostolic Faith. They are, it is true, in the places, but outside of the true Faith; while you are outside the places indeed, but the Faith, within you. Let us consider whether is the greater, the place or the Faith. Clearly the true Faith. Who then has lost more, or who possesses more? He who holds the place, or he who holds the Faith?
The successor Pope to Pope Liberius 1 actually called Liberius a heretic and spoke and acted highly concerning St. Athanasius!
To know the Faith is key to keeping the Faith!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts!
May God have mercy on an amoral Amerika and His Church!
Viva Cristo Rey!
Kenneth M. Fisher
Kenneth: Excellent post @ 3:55 PM!
Becasuse Saint Athanasius was DEFENDING the Council of Nicea. The SSPX wants to DESTROY the Second Vatican Council.
POPE BENEDICT XVI has OFFICIALLY spoken, and in writing, and it is published on the Vatican web site – in an OFFICIAL letter to ALL BISHOPS of the Catholic Church regarding the SSPX.
Until it officially changes from the Vatican, the following stands whether heretics like it or not.
” The fact that the Society of Saint Pius X does not possess a canonical status in the Church is not, in the end, based on disciplinary but on doctrinal reasons.
As long as the Society does not have a canonical status in the Church, its ministers do not exercise legitimate ministries in the Church.
There needs to be a distinction, then, between the disciplinary level, which deals with individuals as such, and the doctrinal level, at which ministry and institution are involved.
In order to make this clear once again: until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church,
and its ministers – even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty – do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church. ” – Pope Benedict XVI,
March 10, 2009.
Save this link for future quoting.
…the call is to define the ambiguous language of the VII council, YFC, so that it will not continue to be misused to facilitate error (i.e. The ‘Spirit’ of VII). Or are you in favor of a smiling Cardinal Kasper who would make use of the ‘pastoral’ ambiguities of VII in order to usher in that which goes against the teachings of the Church – namely encouraging those in a state of adultery to continue as such by way of giving them Holy Communion?
“In many places, [the Council Fathers] had to find compromise formulas, in which, often, the positions of the majority are located immediately next to those of the minority, designed to delimit them. Thus, the conciliar texts themselves have a huge potential for conflict, open the door to a selective reception in either direction.” (Cardinal Walter Kasper, L’Osservatore Romano, April 12, 2013)
Before you indulge in erroneous assaults of capital letters (DESTROY), I suggest you do the reading and understand that CLARITY is what is called for – clarity in light of what the Church actually teaches and has always taught. For many are too inclined to gag the little Hermeneutic of Continuity Angel on their shoulder in favor of the devilish delight of squeaking past something new and different, even if it is a 180 from what the Church ‘actually’ teaches.
Yes indeed, Mike, and that is why there needs to be clarity and that which is official coming from the Vatican instead of the continued spew of confusion and politi-speak. For doctrine not enforced becomes nothing but a joke. And calling folks heretics when the Church Herself, in practice, shies away from Her own teachings seems a bit ridiculous – hence the need for this long overdue article.
But I’d be the last one to call scattered sheep heretics – because scattered apurpose, they were.
Ann Malley, if you do not understand what the Church teaches, that is fine. Seek greater understanding of the great Ecumencial Council. But not understanding Church teaching does not entitle you to disparage it, to ignore it, to ordain your own Bishops, and continue to disobey the Pope who is entrusted with governance of the Universal Church. It’s that simple. But I suspect that you DO understand what the Council taught, you just choose disagree with it. If there were items you don’t understand you would bring those specific things to us or to your pastors and ask for clarification. I have never seen you ask for clarification about ANYTHING you find “ambiguous” in the Council’s teachings.
In the 50 years since the Council, Ms. Malley, what has not been clarified?
Ann Malley, your characterization of the Catholic Church as shying away from her own teachings and having doctrine that is a joke is grossly ignorant and reprehensible. Also just plain wrong.
When cannot accurately assess that which one knows little about.
Thank you Kenneth, well said. Did you see this mentioned in Rorate Caelli? It’s really insightful!
The more we know of history, the more we cease to be protestant, to paraphrase Cd. Newman.
Your responses YFC and Anonymous only undergird the reality of what I posted. Thanks again for the support. But then hostile wti
…hostile witnesses often give the most compelling testimony.
God bless you all.
“Sliding around the facts of schism and excommunication are typical for defenders of a group in schism. The same arguments were heard in the Schism of Utrecht, in the establishment of the Old Catholics, and during the creation of Protestant churches in the 16th century. Always a higher law is appealed to so that a specific law can be circumvented:
According to Martin Luther, “These [church laws] hold good only so long as they are not injurious to Christianity and the laws of God. Therefore, if the Pope deserves punishment, these laws cease to bind us, since Christendom would suffer.”
According to Marcel Lefebvre, “In the Church there is no law or jurisdiction which can impose on a Christian a diminution of his faith. All the faithful can and should resist whatever interferes with their faith…. If they are forced with an order putting their faith in danger of corruption, there is an overriding duty to disobey.”
I agree totally with the post of Kenneth Fisher! I personally think that Abp. Lefebvre and his SSPX have been misunderstood! They are not against the Pope, nor against the Church, at all! They simply uphold the Faith of our parents, grandparents, and all the generations before them, since Christendom was founded! Their priests say the old Latin Tridentine Mass, from the 1962 Missal. Lefebvre was born into a very saintly, devout, French Catholic family. The SSPX do not care for the “modernisms” of this day and age. They live by a very simple, devout, and correct, traditional Catholic Faith. Now, what is so wrong with that?
Linda Marie, It has to do with there being only one Catholic Church.
Priests have to be incardinated; they have to have a bishop who is in union with the Pope. Since the SSPX does not have that, they are not part of the Catholic Church. Since they are not part of the Catholic Church, all the merits and blessings and graces which are given through the Catholic Church to the world and to individuals are not received during the Mass of the SSPX. I do not know which “modernisms” you find bothersome-I hope they are not matters of doctrine. NO-the SSPX do not teach the correct traditional Catholic Faith; they may be simple. They may be pious. But they are not Catholic.
Ann Malley, the faithful who take the time to learn and understand the Bible, the Catechism, the Church’s documents and the writings of the Popes and Bishops will not be fooled by you. But unfortunately, not everyone take the time to do this. They rely on websites or conversations with others in the family and their parish. Almost two years ago, you wrote here on CCD that you would read the documents from Vatican II. I assume that you did so and found some things that you were not sure that you understood. I would like you to tell us what they were so that we may help you find the answers you want. This would be helpful not just to you but to others here. Please state the document and paragraph number so we can all find it easily.
” I personally think that Abp. Lefebvre and his SSPX have been misunderstood!” No Linda Marie…its not a question of being misunderstood. They have caused a great problem in terms of salvation issues. Even Lefebvre’s own words and teachings have taught heresy against writings of the saints. Like any sinner, they just found a loop hole in the system to give them reason to disobey and disconnect. Like our constitution, the homosexual activists have found ways to change it by redefining marriage. We need to be in full communion, we need to study the CCC, holy scriptures and study the faith through the early church doctor saints. We need to pray and fast and be alert because the evil one wants nothing more but to deceive good people. We need to stay within our church to fight the good fight, we need to learn the GIRM well so we can speak up when priests, bishops or even lay faithful are not following it well. Its a moral obligation that as Christians are bound to. We must carry our cross but in faithfulness to the Magisterium. If we make excuses to break away then we are very close to promoting moral relativism.
Abeca and Anonymous, you should take your objections to Rome and advise them that you understand the nature of schism and where they are wrong – for your stubbornness is opposed to that of even Rome itself.
As for a VII discussion, Anonymous, I suggest you take up your confusion with Cardinal Kasper as he has also indicated that there are texts that can be interpreted two different ways. He certainly is making the most of those inroads, too.
“…If they are forced with an order putting their faith in danger of corruption, there is an overriding duty to disobey,” is a perfectly true statement. For the purpose of the Church is to transmit the Faith, not exact obedience in opposition to it.
YFC good for you on doing your research. In the faith we are always learning and growing. We have many beautiful pearls in our faith. Jesus is the great physician of souls. Due to sin we are sick and in need of our Lord.
When Pope Francis speaks about homosexuality, he needs to tell the whole truth: love the sinner, but hate the sin.
This is an excellent article.
It is faithful and obedient.
1) would you be blindly obedient to a Pope like Alexander VI, the Borgia who fathered several illegitimate children including Lucrezia, and was the epitome of nepotism, bribery, deceit, and debauchery ?
2) Would you be blindly obedient to a Pope like Benedict IX who was a playboy and incited a riot in Rome because of the people’s disgust of his antics ?
3) Would you be blindly obedient to any Pope who threw Holy Scripture especially the teachings of Jesus under the bus to support the culture of the day ?
The idea of blind obedience is just plain ignorant.
No faithful Catholic blindly obeys. They know what sin is. They are to obey in all things but sin.
Yes, even if the superior is not an example of personal holiness.
This is in response to the posts of Abecca. The SSPX are excellent! Ideal for the true Catholic and their home and family! They reject the falsehoods of the post-Vatican II Church, and the corruption of modern-day culture—- a terrible “wasteland,” very dangerous and evil, to all! The SSPX people do not believe in tv and other corrupt modern media, and they often try to offer good books and good, wholesome entertainments, especially for the young people, and their families — to further help uplift and educate their minds, and help them avoid the pitfalls of the corrupt modern culture. Laymen who join their lay religious order, are asked to refrain from all the media! No tv, radios, etc.! A very excellent commitment! (But not everyone who attends an SSPX Mass, joins this lay religious order! It is just a nice option, like joining the Legion of Mary, etc.). Better to read Shakespeare, and other great literature, especially the young people! Shakespeare is believed to also have been Catholic, at a dangerous time in English history, the Elizabethan era, when Catholics were all being tortured and killed! The SSPX is deeply committed to our Catholic Faith!
Well Linda Maria you have your own opinions but the facts are the facts. Even Muslims and Mormons have those good qualities you mentioned but the true Church is being in full Communion with Rome,. The poor witness from those who love the SSPX, that some have displayed here have helped me discern that. I have never experienced unholy behaviors against me as I have here with those two lovely ladies. They are a poor witness and have not done your cause any great justice. I disagree with your view that the SSPX is deeply committed to the Catholic faith because they are outside of it. I respectfully agree to disagree with you and thanks to your regulars here, they have helped me discern well in that regard. God bless you.
LINDA MARIE –
Although the excommunication of the 4 Bishops was lifted in Jan., 2009, the following remains, and someone should keep repeating the following least you lead someone astray.
QUOTE: ” In order to make this clear once again:
until the doctrinal questions are clarified,
the SOCIETY has NO CANONICAL STATUS in the CHURCH,
and its ministers – even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty – DO NOT LEGITIMATELY EXERCISE ANY MINISTRY in the CHURCH. ” UNQOUTE – Pope Benedict XVI, March, 2009.
The VATICAN, not you Linda Marie, will let us know of any OFFICIAL changes in the future.
Until that time the SSPX – ” DO NOT LEGITIMATELY EXERCISE ANY MINISTRY in the CHURCH “
It is an excellent article.
And the situation with the SSPX is an entirely different subject.
But does anyone know why this Pope Francis sounds so controversial?
I think it is his style, Gabe. Like a liberal parent who will allow kids to do just about anything so as to keep them ‘safe’ at home. But too often the little ones, who were otherwise on the right track, leave home in disgust only to get gobbled up, their seeming disrespect for ‘authority’ having been inbred.
God help Pope Francis. Authority is a grave responsibility.
Francis’ style is whatever that means, is terrible. He is about to issue an encyclical concerning global warming, while Christians in the middle east are being decimated and the Church in the West is auto-destruct mode. He does really seem to care about the office he holds with his ostentatious displays of humility. He verbally attacks the most faithful Catholics (us slave to fashion Neo-Pelagions TLM’ers) here are some more “style” issues
a stubborn defense of Islam, contrary to the entire history of its persecution of Christians which continues today, including Francis’s declaration in Evangelii Gaudium that “authentic Islam and the proper reading of the Koran are opposed to every form of violence”—a claim he has absolutely no competence to make;
a defense of Islam against the well-founded claim that it inherently promotes violence against “infidels”: “You just can’t say that, just as you can’t say that all Christians are fundamentalists. We have our share of them (fundamentalists). All religions have these little groups”—thus suggesting that Roman Catholic traditionalists or Protestant “Bible-thumpers” are on a par with Muslim fanatics who commit murder, rape and innumerable other acts of violence and persecution against Christians or routinely sentence them to death for “blasphemy” or “apostasy” according to the established juridical frameworks of Muslim countries;
the invitation to a Muslim Imam to “pray for peace” in the Vatican gardens, who, quoting the Koran in Francis’s presence, called upon Allah to “grant us victory over the heathen/disbelieving/infidel”.
…liberal to a fault is a saying for good reason.
Gabe, because the liberal press has noticed that if they write it, people will believe it. And it suits their agenda (and Satan’s) to befuddle Catholics and lie about the Pope.
Every faithful Catholic knows how to get the right information.
No faithful Catholic takes advantage of this unholy situation to smear the Pontiff.
Cardinal George regarding some actions and statements of Pope Francis.
QUOTE: ” The question is raised, why doesn’t he himself clarify these things ? Why is it necessary that apologists have to bear that burden of trying to put the best possible face on it ?
Does he not realize the consequences of some of his statements, or even some of his actions ?
Does he not realize the repercussions ? Perhaps he doesn’t. I don’t know whether he’s conscious of all the consequences of some of the things he’s said and done that raise these doubts in people’s minds. ” UNQUOTE.
Thank you Sandy this is also from the Vatican:
Catholics who patronize the Society of St. Pius X need to know three things that have serious consequences for them.
1. A Catholic does not fulfill his Sunday obligation at a Society Mass.
2. Confessions by Society priests are invalid.
3. Marriages performed by Society priests are invalid.
We’re not just saying illicit here, we’re saying invalid.
Also you can read more about it from Catholics who are in full Communion and who have done their research. Its about saving souls and we have a moral duty to share the truth, to those who seek it.
Abeca, what you posted above is not from the Vatican website. What you posted came from the opinion site you’ve now turned to in order to fuel your personal agenda.
I understand that you are steeped with zeal to defend the Church, but I’m afraid your passions have blinded you for saying something comes from the Vatican when it does not is lying. Are you now open to lying in order to further you desire to distract from troubles within OUR Church?
I hope that this openly misleading post was a slip up and not a sign of good will turned bad for less than pure intentions. God bless you, Abeca, but this vendetta of yours helps no one. Least of all you.
Dont lie Ann Malley. How would you know, your not in the faith to know. Plus even the priests from Tridentine mass and Catholic Answers have validated those facts. So it is you who is in grave error and misleading our lay faithful.
“OUR church”? You came back? Yeah! and praise the Lord.
I hope you went to confession, too.
Bishop Marcello Semeraro of Albano, Italy, has warned that Catholics who attend Mass at chapels staffed by the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) incur excommunication.
The bishop explained that the bishops and priests of the SSPX are suspended from priestly ministry, and therefore when the faithful receive the sacraments from SSPX ministers, they “break communion with the Catholic Church.” The faithful who incur excommunication may be received back into the Church only after a penitential process, the bishop said.
Bishop Semeraro said that in making this announcement, he was only reiterating the policy established by his predecessor, Bishop Dante Bernini, who retired in 1999. Bishop Semeraro acknowledged that in 1999, Pope Benedict XVI had lifted the excommunication of the SSPX bishops. But he observed that their suspension from ministry remains in force.
Abeca, you lied about the source of what you wrote. Your zeal has blinded you.
No not lied. The facts are the same in all faithful Catholic domains. Your own comments make you look desperate to try to discredit because you do not stand in the truth. Those who do not stand in the truth amount to tactics like yours. Why argue with people of bad will, its pointless. The truth is available to all with free will who are sincere to be in good graces with our Lord and His Church. Pax Christi
You lied, Abeca, or else assumed that what you picked off of the web came off the Vatican website. Your motive seems to be to discredit and carry grudges. That is bad will, Abeca, and something those in full communion can commit very easily as it is called sinning. So yes, the truth is available to all of good will who are sincere and correspond with God’s grace. Please stop trying to limit that grace to your own biased interpretations… even those you just posted about Pope Francis.
Regardless of the source, the content of what Abeca posted is correct regarding the SSPX masses. But you would rather attack the poster, Abeca, because you have it out for her and it is easier to attack her and her motives rather than disputing the truth of what she wrote:
“1. A Catholic does not fulfill his Sunday obligation at a Society Mass.
2. Confessions by Society priests are invalid.
3. Marriages performed by Society priests are invalid.
We’re not just saying illicit here, we’re saying invalid.”
Seriously, if you only knew how petty and stupid this is…
I agree with the post of Ann Malley. Yes, authority is a grave responsibility! Many people in positions of authority today, are afraid of doing a good job, for fear of not being liked or “approved” of! These people all need to grow up! Christ made lots of people mad! He always told the truth, and was eventually betrayed by one of His own, and killed for this! He was not a sugary-sweet, permissive, spineless baby, in a teaching role! No, He held His Divine Authority properly, commanding tremendous respect from all! He was a full-grown Jewish adult man at an early age– and even commanded respect from his parents, when he got lost in the Temple, at the tender age of twelve! Many people today, confuse authority, respect, and responsibility, with egoistic abuse of power. They often mistrust authority, as many also were brainwashed by rebel activists, of the sick 1960’s. Authority is impersonal, a big responsibility, and has nothing to do with babyish egotism! Not everyone is good at handling responsibility, and authority. Yet, it is something we all are called to do, in one way or another, upon reaching adulthood. Especially the Pope!
After also studying more on as how dangerous the SSPX is and now I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY THERE IS NO MUCH ANGER HERE FROM IN REGARDS TO V2 I found this to be concerning:
From the SSPX “We also have the Great Western Schism of the 14th century, and the scandalous lives of many bishops, etc” Again, Infallibility or impeccability? For one, the Bishops, scattered all over the world, have no Infallibility. They are also not impeccable. But they feed off the impeccability of the issues that face us from some of our leadership, when they neglect to see their own!
In conclusion, there is an example of approving words, among others, from “Archbishop Lefebvre”:”This study which you have presented me is very well done and can, no doubt, clear up the hesitations which many of the faithful still have. . . The Vatican becomes more and more an instrument for destruction of the Faith. How can we collaborate with the disciples of the father of lies?” In other words, what follows their doctrine of Gallicanism is a belief the Pope at the Vatican can destroy the Catholic Faith, in collaboration with the father of lies!
Taken from lay faithful who have done their research:
In December of 2013 the superior of the SSPX seminary in the United States had this blatantly heretical statement in his “Letters to benefactors: “The Christ who incarnated Himself in Our Lady now wants to be incarnated in our lives”. It is clear in many catechisms and in the Nicene Creed that Our Lord, Jesus Christ, was “Conceived by the Holy Ghost” the third Person of the Blessed Trinity. This blatant heresy appeared to be a test against their laity to see how far they can go with their blinded sheep. As far as we know there has been no outcry against it.
SSPX in Their denial of the Papal prerogatives is the primary and worst of their schismatic attitudes. What they say is essentially this: “Holy Father, we respect you, we love you, but we cannot obey you when you go against the Faith.” When the Vatican Council teaches the Pope cannot err in faith and morals they are not saying “cannot” in the sense of “if he does, we don’t have to listen”. No. “Cannot” means cannot! The Pope literally cannot teach error in faith and morals. Bishop Whelan, in the year 1871 tells us, concerning the doctrine of Infallibility: “Infallibility of the Church means that, according to the promises of God, and under the guiding influence of the Holy Ghost, the Church CANNOT teach to men any doctrinal point, as of obligation to be believed, except what God Himself has revealed” A Golden Chain of Evidences, 1871, pages 29-30
Bless you, Abeca Christian! You seem to be so sincere and utterly committed to the Catholic Faith! That is so wonderful! I, too, am deeply committed to our Faith! I agree with Kenneth Fisher. I have had a unique experience, with the Society of St. Pius X which, after my own investigations, long ago, led me to think that they are deeply committed to the Catholic Faith, as they see the True Faith! Lefebvre and about 250 bishops, tried so hard, at Vatican II to persuade the others NOT to go against the Church’s True Mass and True Teachings! At Vatican II, Lefebvre saw a revolt similar to the French Revolution, in his own country. Bless him! Lefebvre was later evilly tricked by Pope John Paul II, regarding the consecrations of his four bishops, to succeed him, as he would soon die. A horrible, deceptive trick! St. John Paul II was great, and a Saint– but did some wrong things, too! I accept it all, because I see his good to the world, and have no idea— only God can judge! (Why did he deceive us, regarding the child sex abuse scandals? That is another story.) I will try to continue this later. The SSPX is so misunderstood!
No Linda Marie. Your commitement is modeled after man made views. Their power of suggestion has mislead many. SSPX is not misunderstood as much as the Muslims are either if that is the arguement you want to make. The more we stray away from Christ’s words and promises the easier it will be for the enemy to seem more appealing. The church contains the wholeness of the truth. I know you are a good person and i was deeply concerned when you posted once “the whole church has gone bad” something of that nature and that is a big clue to be concerned on your faith walk, that you need to keep your trust in Jesus, His Church and not on the failings of humans. The fact that SSPX actions dont concern you, you being a good person and all, says to me that you need to learn your faith more especially on what the saints have taught on infallability of Christs church, teachings on the Vicor of Christ, obedience, what is schism, heresy and consequences etc. Dont learn your faith from rebels, because it is their pride that misleads them and others from seeking the truth within Christ’s church.
Abeca, you need to stop assuming that posters who are likely older than you and have been Catholic far longer, are babies in need of ‘your’ guidance and coddling.
“Your commitement is modeled after man made views,” applies to yourself, specifically your belief that your understanding is thorough. It is not. That is why you continue to act as if you are in a position of authority to pronounce judgments when you are not. This is not ‘of God’ or ‘of Jesus’ Abeca, but rather it is of Abeca Christian.
The seeing of Truth within Christ’s Church is precisely what the Society sees which is why they keep it, dear lady, whole and entire. If you want to have understanding, I suggest you go further than your own limited knowledge and that of your friend.
If there were no gross crisis within the Church there would be no easily misleading folks. That is why we in the Church need to focus on promoting the Faith, whole and entire, in every diocese.
Linda Marie, you said it. They are deeply committed to the Catholic Faith, as they see it.
As you know, obedience is the hallmark of those who seek the will of God. Even Jesus Christ had to obey his parents and the lawful authorities.
They ignore that part of the Catholic Faith. They refuse to rejoin with Rome because they do not want to have to obey the Pope.
Marcel Lefebvre agreed to the terms of the Pope, then betrayed him by consecrating bishops which automatically excommunicated him and the 4 priests who accepted consecration. Although their excommunication was lifted, they are still suspended priests. They cannot say Mass. When they do, they are committing a sin.
Intentions don’t make a wrong action right.
You must remember that priests like Padre Pio did not leave the Church. They got permission to say the Latin Mass from the Pope. It was not necessary to leave the Church to say the Latin Mass.
There is conflicting information on whether Marcel Lefebvre signed all the Vatican II documents. Those who have seen the documents say that he did, although there is information on the SSPX website that says there are two that he did not sign.
I have read other things on the SSPX website that do not seem to be accurate or true. Always double check the things that they say. They like to present themselves as persecuted by the Church. The Church has made many attempts to work things out with them but they refuse.
Anonymous: What a liar! Padre Pio NEVER EVER said the Novus Ordo Mass. He died before it was ever implemented. He died in 1968 and the Novus Ordo didn’t start until 1969. Also, Padre Pio prayed to God to take him before he eve had to say the Novus Ordo. He even said, “Stop the council quickly!” Here is what all should read and most of all you, Anonymous! https://mundabor.wordpress.com/tag/s-padre-pio/
When the new Rites began to appear in the mid 1960s (finalized in 1969 after his death) Padre Pio continued to celebrate the old. It has been alleged by some that this was due to his dissatisfaction with the liturgical changes. However, this was not the case. Already over 80 years of age and going blind the only practical way for Padre Pio to offer the Mass was to pray the one he had been celebrating for 50 years. This same privilege was granted by law to all elderly priests.
Lied again, mous! (JK) Padre Pio died September 23,1968 and NOT 1969. He NEVER had to ask permission to keep on saying the Tridentine Mass! As Padre Pio would say, “For pity sake!” Oh, a documentation from the ever liberal and lukewarm EWTN! Real reliable. I want to see the letter! I’m sure they didn’t twist the words and meaning to fit their lukewarm faith either.
RR, thank you for the link. I notice that it is from an SSPX website. There is no documentation of what is written. The following is from a letter written to Pope Paul VI by Padre Pio:
“The Capuchin Order has always been in the first line in love, fidelity, obedience and devotion to the Holy See; I pray to God that it may remain thus and continue in its tradition of religious seriousness and austerity, evangelical poverty and faithful observance of the Rule and Constitution, certainly renewing itself in the vitality and in the inner spirit, according to the guides of the Second Vatican Council, in order to be always ready to attend to the necessities of Mother Church under the rule of your Holiness.”
And the Society had permission to say the Latin Mass, mous. The continuance of the TLM and priests formed to offer it was the entire basis for the legitimate formation of the SSPX. Get your facts straight, mous. Try understanding the issues. Four Bishops were consecrated after an exhaustive back and forth wherein the Society had had permission to go forward only to have that permission pulled back because other Bishops were causing the Pope heartburn because they were AFRAID of letting tradition continue in a traditional manner.
And, mous, those same Bishops/Cardinals are still afraid of letting tradition flourish because it directly opposes their own agenda. The very same agenda which gives rise to the WHY behind why lay Faithful are increasingly called to speak up.
We owe obedience to God and the Faith, mous. Obedience in all but sin. I know you do not understand that, but perhaps someday you will. God bless you for your zeal, but that often leads to impure intent and ultimate blindness.
The original sin is disobedience.
…disobedience to God’s law, mous. That is why there is obedience required in all things but sin.
Linda Maria! says: “Lefebvre was later evilly tricked by Pope John Paul II, regarding the consecrations of his four bishops, to succeed him, as he would soon die. A horrible, deceptive trick!”
A person without facts is a person without trustworthiness. What horribly deceptive trick did Saint JPII “play” upon poor Lefebvre??? Please tell us, the faithful want to know!!
I will add to my post, above. After Vatican II, the Church cruelly TRICKED us, with a HUGE POLITICAL SUPPRESSION of our Tridentine Mass, many religious devotions, and forbidding many traditions and customs– also, many bishops forbade traditional church designs, in building new churches! They also refused parents proper religious education of their children– and substituted terrible and wrongful Catechism programs, and wrongful preparation programs, for Sacraments, such as First Communion, First Confession, and Confirmation! They evilly allowed much ignorance, immorality and heresy to prosper, (and almost replace!) the True Church! Parents had to BEG for proper Catholic schools, a decent, theoogically-correct Mass (while accepting the botched Vatican II Mass), correct Christian moral teaching, good behavior in church (to teach their children), and overall– a DECENT CHURCH for their families! Most Catholic parents were denied their rightful needs, by the Church. (The rightful needs of the Catholic are also stated in the Code of Canon Law.) (Continued.)
I will add just one more thing, to my two above posts. The Code of Canon Law, revised by Pope St. John Paul II, states clearly, the religious rights of all Catholics, and the obligations of the Church, towards them. The Church is supposed to provide for all their rightful religious needs, and to correctly help the Catholic Faithful, towards Salvation. But the Code of Canon Law has been completely disregarded, since Vatican II! Pope St. John Paul II, disregarded it, himself, though he revised it! I see all of this stuff as unfortunate “Church Politics,” by wayward human beings. However, I do believe in the Catholic Faith, as given to us, by Jesus Christ! I see the value of BOTH what Pope St. John XXIII, Blessed Pope Paul VI, and the post-Vatican II Church has tried to do (in a poor manner, however!) and what Abp. Lefebvre and the SSPX has tried to do. I am not a member of the SSPX, but I do admire what they are trying to say! Their history sounds complex– but a deeper investigation into it all, will yield very excellent results! Possibly, Lefebvre was not only a Martyr– but also, a Saint! Who knows??
I believe he died unreconciled to the Church.
That is like saying Martin Luther is a saint.
Lefebvre left a very problematic problem with many who follow his stand against the church, if people of good will know their faith and read the facts on what Lefebvre said and taught we can all conclude that he is a heretic and schismatic. The SSPX has been working since then to make sure they redefine schism, they have done a good job at causing more confusion to the flock that good honest traditional folks fall prey to its deceptive nature. Read more about it on the history and learn for yourself, its all there. https://sspx.agenda.tripod.com/id9.html
The church may not have come out strongly against it because it truly wishes to have them re-unite but I don’t see it happening because like a good and holy priest once told us that it is easier to convert an atheist than it is for someone who has been deeply been immersed in errors that fill their hearts with heresy and schism.
The Second Vatican Council says, “the faithful…should be closely attached to the Bishop as the Church is to Jesus Christ and as Jesus Christ is to the Father.” St. Ignatius of Antioch the successor of St. Peter in that See wrote, “let no one do anything concerning the Church in separation from the Bishop.”
It seems very clear, that Pope Francis loves Christ, and wants to brings Christ’s love to the world. But the good Pope, in all fairness to him— seems to want to depart from the True Catholic Faith, in order to bring Christ’s love to the world! He seems to ignore the reality of sin, and of people also making mistakes unintentionally, due to poor religious and moral training! For some reason, the Pope knowingly, intentionally, misdirects the Catholic Faithful, on key issues of our Faith, regarding the Holy Sacrament of Marriage, sexual promiscuity, homosexuality, abortion, and the necessary requirements for proper reception of Holy Communion. (etc.) What does all of this mean? Has Pope Francisc put this all prayerfully, under God’s guidance?? How can our Church possibly function, under such absurd leadership?? Why doesn’t Pope Francis simply explain to the world, how to lead a good Christian life, and how to simply be a good, practicing Catholic, on the road to Heaven?? It’s all in the Catechism, as well as in the Bible! Just what does it take, for good, responsible leadership, for a Pope??
The article is about Pope Francis.
Why all the focus on the SSPX?
Gabe because if you look at the pattern from this website, the heresies and errors of the SSPX have been advocated here by words and actions by some posters, so it is appropriate to do so. There seems to be a mix up about the facts and problems that SSPX have incurred by their actions to not be in full communion. There is a double standard stance from those who wish to do away with V2, the SSPX has produced such disobedience to the point of slander against Christ’s Catholic church, that we can no longer ignore. They won’t listen but I’m just posting this for those who are in full communion with Rome, to help them discern the facts better within the truth that our church contains.
No heresies have been advocated here about the Society, Abeca, but only those in your own mind. The same goes for your fixation of defending VII without looking at it critically and understanding that it is being abused due to it’s inherent weakness. You should be among the first calling for clarification of certain aspects so as to go forward as the Church has always taught and yet you are adequately blinded by passion – your own.
God bless you just the same. And forgive you for you do not discern the poison in your own writings.
…because Abeca Christian’s feelings were hurt by someone who admitted to attending the SSPX and now she is on a personal crusade to calumniate in order to avoid addressing the problems within the Church. Thing is, the problems inside will not go away no matter what the distraction may be. The fact that these problems are the fruit of ambiguity in teaching, certain documents, and the ‘pastoral’ approach – the things to which the Society is opposed for fidelity to the Faith – is an added burr.
Gabe: Because Abeca wants to pretend she is the only “faithful” Catholic here and bait Ann. Catherine, and their Like-minded” friends. She just can’t give it up. She is obsessed with the Pius X. She brings it to every article and wants people to think she is so wise about the Pius X and how smart she is because she researched the Pius X. She pretends to be so holy, but she is really a vindictive woman to people who do not believe as she does. Then when people respond to her they are big, fat, meanies!!!
I am shocked by the false friends of abeca ganging up on her. It is because she is faithful and that is what happens to the faithful on this website.
Anonymous: And you think you are faithful? Please! Abeca has brought this on herself. Nobody is “ganging up on her.” She has brought her problems to the table all by herself. All she has to do is drop it, but she continues to go on and on and on! The Traditionalists, who want only to hang on to what the Church has taught for 2000 yrs, have every right to defend the Traditions of the Church and themselves. If Abeca feels she needs to respond to a post, by all means do it in a discussion and not copy things from websites that SHE believes to be the truth. All she does is copy things. That is a coward way to do it. Have a civil conversation and discuss things in a civil manner instead of attack, attack, attack. The behavior she displays solves none of the problems facing the Church today.
RR actually i didnt bring anything upon myself. The SSPX did it on its own. This whole thread only tells the truth about two sides. One who refuses to be in full communion and preaches to the homosexuals to obey Catholicsm yet while the other disobeys the church on being chaste and obeying the natural law. Why do you think the church prays for the conversion of all sinners. We are all sinners. We are human beings. Unfortunately many Catholics and even those outside the church are cafeteria Catholics. They pick and choose. The faith is a gift and we have free will, lets not take the faith for granted.
Abeca, nobody was preaching to YFC here. And you keep bringing up the SSPX because of your personal issues with me. I am an individual – not the Society. And until the issues within the Church get addressed, you’ll only have to keep seeking others to blame or keep having to make excuses for doctrine that isn’t preached.
For it is precisely the disconnects within the Church that would abrade the ‘gift’ of Faith, making it something less than what it is so as to not upset people. But that tactic hasn’t been working.
Many inside the Church disagree with Her teachings or don’t even know them. Please attempt to stay focused on the issue of promoting the fullness of Faith.
No not so. Just finally having an honest talk about it. I wonder why they feel so threatened? Interesting. Double standard actions. Now that the truth is available for people to inform themselves they feel threatened. Its about time.
Abeca: I see you posting in every article about the Pius X. Why don’t you just stop. I see you as the instigator. If a Pius X poster or a Traditionalist post something you attack them. It isn’t to defend the Church either. Sometimes you will just randomly post something condemning the Pius X when the article has nothing to do with them or they haven’t even said anything on the article. You just keep going and going and going. You are not God and you cannot judge these people. The Church is a mess and if you don’t see that then I don’t know what to tell you. Actually, the truth has come out about you. I believe you are a very spiteful person which is sad to me because I always thought you were so sweet. A person who is faithful will not treat Traditional Catholics the way you do. You treat the ACTIVE homosexuals and blatant dissenters better than the Traditionalists. You try and convert the homosexuals and dissenters by being nice and you slam the Traditionalists every opportunity you get who are trying only defend the Traditions of the Church from the errors of modernism.
RR, to be quite honest, the stuff that Abeca Christian posted concerning the SSPX is quite mild. They had a bishop covering up homosexuality and pedophilia; they’ve had a preist arrested for raping and torturing 3 teachers.
And they are dissidents. That is why they exist.
I hope you will really inform yourself about this organization before you defend them so thoroughly. As is always the case, the ideal is not the reality. They are glamorized as “preserving the true faith’ but they have already had several schisms break off from them because they really weren’t and those who felt like the true faith was being betrayed left and formed their own schismatic group.
Anonymous: Have you heard of the scandals and sex abuse crisis in the Novus Ordo Church? They had many bishops covering up homosexuality and pedophilia: they’ve had many priests arrested for raping children and young teens. And many are dissidents. I hope you really inform yourself about the abuse that is still continuing today. They are glamorized as “in full communion” all the while committing this scandal. Sound familiar?
…as for saucy posts, there is a lot of dirty laundry airing that could be done about every institution comprised of human beings. Our own Catholic hierarchy comes to mind, mous, so if you’d like to sling around in the mud it could get very dirty indeed. So the ‘mild’ comment goes both ways. Especially when folks get in a dither over comments about an excess of estrogen. But hey, even Cardinal Burke believes there is an excess of the feminine. Try looking to what the comment means instead of getting huffy about how something was said.
I hope this means you have returned to the Church.
That is most welcome.
I don’t know what the estrogen remark means.
And I was not slinging mud.
Now of course when you do stuff, you are enlightening the blind, but if someone else does it they are mudslinging.
But I am glad if you have returned to the Church and that is a cause of joy for us and the angels.
Abeca: PLEASE LISTEN CAREFULLY! I AM NOT A PIUS X!!!!!! How many times do I have to say this! Don’t tell me the problems of my “founder” because once again I AM NOT A PIUS X!!!! Also, I am so done responding to you because you have a sick obsession and addiction with the Pius X and I’m not going to feed your obsession and addiction anymore! ” With all due respect and out of charity,” you sound obsessed!
Abeca: You may also want to consider who your supporters are. They are the true enemies of God’s Church. Mous and YFC are your main supporters. You have joined forces with the devil’s advocates. Think about it. You act like you are being nice to them because you want to convert them. Well, in your own agenda, why won’t you be “nice” to the Pius X and try and convert them too? You slam them all the time and are NOT nice at all. No, you treat them like the plague. So, talk about “double standard.”
Thank you RR for posting. God bless and I hope you are well!
Ann Malley: I am doing well. The holidays were a very sad time for me and my family, but knowing my mom and dad are together with God this Christmas does give me comfort. Please say a prayer for their souls and for me and my family. Thank you for caring! I hope you are well also and I hope you and your family have a blessed New Year.
There is no poster named mous.
There was an anonymous poster who called Ann Malley by the name of Malley and she started calling him or her mous.
Since then, regrettably, she has persisted in her disrespect and a few others have joined her.
There are many anonymous posters, not just one.
It would be good to show a good Catholic witness here.
You should read the Bible and the Catechism and the writings of the saints on how to treat others.
God bless you, RR. You and your entire family are in my prayer intentions and I thank you for yours. Try remembering that your folks are together, yes, but also very close to you. They see your struggles, fidelity, and defense of the principles they’ve taught you and are, no doubt, given much joy. So God bless you! And do keep your parents close in thought… they are no doubt doing much the same with you.
RR, I will also join with Ann in holding you and your family in my prayers. So much sadness in the world, and yet we who believe are promised such joy after this life. May God, the great healer, bring you comfort. Mary, pray for us.
Ann And Dana: Thank you so much for your thoughts and prayers. Your words are inspiring and help with the sorrow of missing them. God Bless you both!
Anonymous: As Sarah Palin would say, “chill out” a little bit. Yes, there are a number of posters with the anonymous title, and you are correct when you say Ann Malley started calling him “mous” but it was because he INSULTED AN DDISRESPECTED her first by calling her Malley. Since then she has called him “mous” and I believe she is using it now with humor and not disrespect. I have even called this anonymous “mous” also, but my intention, and I’m sure Ann’s intention was to call him/her that in humor now. For all I know you could be the “mous” we are talking about pretending to be another anonymous. If it upsets you why don’t you get a new title. Then you will know we are not insulting you. I guess people don’t have a sense of humor anymore! I will continue to have my sense of humor because it is what gets me through tough times and in the future if I call this anonymous “mous” , you and the real “mous” and everyone else know that it is done in humor, not disrespect.
RR you continue adding malice and false notions. I have no supporters, I have not joined forces with anyone here…..just stating the truth about SSPX. Just a moral duty to inform our flock of good will, who love Christ and His church. So all your faulty arguments are irrelevant. You don’t have to listen, you have free will just like we all do. Just because they too have done their research and concluded the truth about the SSPX doesn’t mean I have supporters. The church contains the wholeness of the truth. It is there for ones salvation. Just the fact that you can’t go to confession with a SSPX is alarming enough and the heretical teachings of your founder, are also alarming. I read his own lectures and many go against what saints have taught on the Vicor and obedience. With all due respect and out of charity, Your arguments are utterly ridiculous!
All the lay faithful who are of good will and who study their faith and are in full communion with the Magesterium know that the situation with the SSPX is not to be taken lightly, so stop throwing false arguments that are not there! Thanks for your time. Go with God!
God bless you, RR, for getting it. Yes, the infamous ‘mous’ was called as such because that is the best thing to a last name I could give him/her in response to their unending charity. The same charity that lends itself to continuing the use of an ambiguous moniker so one can claim ‘that’s not me’ when called to account for what one posts.
If you want to use manners, mous, then start with being consistently kind and genuine otherwise the manners smack as an insult. Much like those who post ‘ladies’. Good grief.
Abeca, there is no threat that is why your obsessive posting and attacking a position you do not understand fully is so odd. It is faithful to your own idea, not faithful to the fullness of Faith or reality of what others believe or follow.
I hope you’re pleased with yourself.
Please learn the Catholic Faith.
Ann, Abeca confuses criticizing the pope with criticizing the Church. This pope is greatly in error and it is our duty to speak out. He’s taking the Church into political realms and is polarizing the faithful. I Would not keep pressing the issue if it were not for the fact that in between his many potent and faithful speeches, are many acts in gross contradiction to Catholic teaching. Who ami to judge? No one! Who am I judging? Everyone! For our pope represents the Church, past, present and future. It’s imperative he stay the course. Two thousand Christianns were killed by muslims yesterday…thousands upon thousands have been murdered by muslims this century and what is the pope speaking to the UN about? Global warming…and his encyclical, to boot.
…Abeca now confuses consistency in Faith with being against Holy Mother Church as she herself has smeared the Pope. But she won’t take any responsibility for that either.
And yet laying all this mess on ‘just’ Pope Francis isn’t fair because everything has precipitating factors, a building and a culmination. Much like we didn’t get Obama in the White House without preceding causes – ongoing developments that have led folks to lose their way entirely.
RR actually, Abeca doesn’t pretend hers is the only way of being catholic, but she has been subjected to unrelenting claims that she has flip flopped on her positions, mocking her about her spiritual experiences, and her attempts to obey the actual teachings of the Catechism. She is only attempting to defend herself.
YFC counterfeit Catholic…
Savaranola rides again, but not so well .
Or is it Savonarola? I read “The Agony and the Ecstasy” in high school!!
I grew up in an area highly dominated by Slavic peoples, of various Orthodox churches, not in union with Rome. There were also various Eastern Rite Catholic churches, in the same area. And many nationalities were present, in our local Latin Rite Catholic churches! Well, whenever we would have Adoration, such as on First Fridays– many people from various Orthodox churches would come, as well as Eastern Rite Catholics, along with Latin Rite Catholics. Once, I asked several Orthodox worshippers why they came to Adoration. Wouldn’t their Orthodox priests be mad at them?? They replied that they did not have this devotion in their churches, as the Blessed Sacrament was not, by custom, reserved, as in our Church. Yet, they loved this devotion! All three churches– Latin Rite Roman Catholic, Eastern Rite Catholic, and various Orthodox churches, had great similarities, though differences, too. In the same way, I see the SSPX as our brothers in Christ! Their only difference, with Rome– is accepting Vatican II. Their Sacraments are valid– but not legal, with our Pope!
Anonymous or Linda Marie that is fine but you have your opinion but when it comes to faith, it takes more than just liking or having experiences with people. It takes an understanding of grace and of what leads to good will. I pray you open up your heart to the truths not just feelings. I too grew up with Various Orthodox family, Arabic etc and have attended the Ukrainian parish in full communion with Rome. You wanting to distract the lay faithful about the SSPX is not good. If you truly care about their salvation, you would encourage them to be in full communion, warn them of the heresies being taught, and if you don;t understand those issues, then remain silent or at least warn them about what matters the most which is:
“1. A Catholic does not fulfill his Sunday obligation at a Society Mass.
2. Confessions by Society priests are invalid.
3. Marriages performed by Society priests are invalid.
We’re not just saying illicit here, we’re saying invalid.
Those are the main things to consider for those who do not understand the issues well. These are good enough reasons for me to stay away from such a group until they re-unite and do what is right, but until then, we are to remain faithful ! God bless you.
“…You wanting to distract the lay faithful about the SSPX is not good.”
Abeca, dear lady, (I hope you receive that better) this admonishment you make to Linda Maria and Anonymous is one you should address to yourself. You advertise more than you dissuade. And your disjointed posts add to the curiosity of those who would otherwise not even know about the Society. So again, thank you for continuing to spread the word and giving folks an introduction to something they might otherwise not know about but for your obsessive injection of SSPX into various threads. (Kind of like a parent who keeps talking about a subject that they want their kids to avoid. Often such a parent implants the idea in their child’s mind due to their own obsessive focus on the very thing they seek to avoid.)
To quote RR, “You have joined forces with the devil’s advocates.” Anything to distract from your own flip flop behavior and the real crisis within the Church.
Your stating, “These are good enough reasons for me to stay away from such a group until they re-unite and do what is right,” might be well and good for you. You seem to be situated where you have much to choose from – not all are similarly blessed, Abeca. There but for the grace of God go you. So please stop beating up on others who are attempting to do their level best in the place where God has planted them.
A woman of good will wouldn’t do such a thing.
Malley. Well what difference does it make. If you dont get nearer to our Lord, then how will you know. The blind keep leading the blind, so i prefer to be lead by our beloved Lord. He is my eyes, ears, breath, my all etc. You wont shake me a bit because Jesus is the only one i trust to lead me. Since your sacrament of Confession is invalid, your losing out on the graces that come with. Jesus is the victim. Your resistance is lead by your deeply rooted pride. Stop persecuting Jesus and return home. Pax Christi.
Okay, Beca, if that’s how you want to begin interacting. But again I say a woman of good will wouldn’t behave the way you do. So for all of the graces you believe you are receiving, you are not using them, but rather losing them due to your own pride and hurt feelings.
And again, if coming ‘home’ means returning to the likes of willful ignorance and lack of accountability that your posts represent, yours is no home. But, Abeca, I would never blame you for my situation. Would that the same could be said of you.
You are shaking yourself. Whatever indecision or doubts you have are your own. So great – you’re not shaken. I’m not trying to shake you. But you may want to look in a mirror and say that to yourself because that is who you are battling. And after some solid affirmations maybe you can get off your obsession and move on with looking at the problems within the Church and fighting those.
So maybe you should stop persecuting yourself for your doubts and stop attempting to pin the blame for them on someone else.
I have to say, Abeca, that I am not sure that this poster is even Catholic. The knowledge of the Catholic Church and Catholicism (and even of the SSPX and traditionalism) just isn’t there. It is possible that this person, man or woman, is just a troll who likes to wind people up. I notice that they pick up on things that other posters say and then use it to try to get a rise out of them. They continually bait they same person with insulting and illogical comments. They are just trying to get your goat. Notice how with you they call the Catholic Church “OUR” Church but with others they maintain that they are SSPX. This is just a person who is playing a game with you. Pity those who take them seriously. The errors are insidiously evil but the person may not have enough knowledge of the faith to understand the evil they do. Hope so. Pray only.
…that is because the Society, despite your limited perspective, is part of the Catholic Church, mous. Someone who only has exposure to the St. Joseph First Communion Catechism might also believe that God can do all things, taking that quite literally to assume that God could in fact sin.
Well, God cannot sin, mous. But it requires a level of understanding that goes beyond 2nd grade. That is your problem. Your understanding is very basic and that is okay. But it is not the necessary equipment to evangelize or even undertake a mature theological discussion.
So yes, mous, the Catholic Church is ‘our’ Church. You just can’t quite see over the pews yet.
Notice how he/she goes for your character.
Rather than address the real issues. You bring up valid points but he/she just insults.
He/She doesn’t talk about the real problems of attending Mass and other sacraments with suspended priests.
This person uses a lot of Novus Ordo excuses to justify breaking with Tradition.
From the Roman Catechism by Pius V:
Hence there are but three classes of persons excluded from the Church’s pale: infidels, heretics and schismatics, and excommunicated persons. Infidels are outside the Church because they never belonged to, and never knew the Church, and were never made partakers of any of her Sacraments. Heretics and schismatics are excluded from the Church, because they have separated from her and belong to her only as deserters belong to the army from which they have deserted. It is not, however, to be denied that they are still subject to the jurisdiction of the Church, inasmuch as they may be called before her tribunals, punished and anathematised. Finally, excommunicated persons are not members of the Church, because they have been cut off by her sentence from the number of her children and belong not to her communion until they repent.
But with regard to the rest, however wicked and evil they may be, it is certain that they still belong to the Church: Of this the faithful are frequently to be reminded, in order to be convinced that, were even the lives of her ministers debased by crime, they are still within the Church, and therefore lose nothing of their power.
According to the SSPX themselves, they are not part of the Catholic Church. They are independent. According to the Catholic Church, the SSPX is not part of the Catholic Church.
So why do you think they are?
Stop being so utterly ignorant. Stop accusing others of the very characteristics that you display.
Yes anonymous i have noticed. They are predictable. Its bad will. RR poor thing, got wrapped up in their bad behavior. She says she is not SSPX but for someone who says she isnt she sure takes alot of interest in defending them even knowing the gravitity of the sins of schisn. Well to each his own. This topic was to inform the faithful, warn them and to display their hypocracy and double standards.
Foolish nonsense, Abeca. You’ve come out and smeared the Pope yourself, you believe Eye of the Tiber is an actual news site, and you molly coddle homosexual trolls as if they need a junior reader catechism. Poor thing is right. God bless you, Abeca, and be well.
Abeca please stop with finger wagging its becoming tiresome. This blind defense of Vatican 2 has sewn the seeds of creation of a counterfeit Church. If you and rest of its defenders took an honest look at what it has wrought you would not be so quick to denounce Ann M, RR etc. Vatican 2 put the modernist in complete control of the Church, take a look at the wasteland, open your eyes empty seminaries, parishes, scandals, lesbian nuns, gay priests. If you do not think it needs to be completely reexamined (I think it should be suppressed) then you are kidding yourself. There is no vehement Church militant to spoken of at all, we have Pope more concerned with global warming then defending the Faith and receives hosanna’s from the world are deep trouble. I see people like YFC posting the gay garbage and people defending it, if we lived in more enlightened time gays would thrown prison where they belong. You may not like the SSPX and I do not attend there chapels, but it the SSPX that organized a massive protest of blasphemous play of the Virgin Mary in NYC 7 years ago, NOT the archbishop of New York. YFC I find you to be rather detestable with your constant attacks on the SSPX while you post constant heresy and gay rights garbage, may you convert before you draw your last breath..
Thanks, Canisius. “…This blind defense of Vatican 2 has sewn the seeds of creation of a counterfeit Church.” It’s consoling and edifying to know that many within the Church actually understand that our present crisis didn’t get pulled out of thin air.
EXACTLY, Canisius! God bless you!
Canisius, you go to an Eastern Rite Church which is in full communion with the Catholic Chuch, am I correct?
The SSPX is what it is. Protesting public blasphemy, while a wonderful action, does not make them Catholic.
That is the issue. Not whether they teach the Catholic Faith or have a sensually pleasing TLM or do works of mercy or protest impurity.
They question is not whether they are moral people in the secular sense of the word. It is whether the organization SSPX and their chapels are Catholic. They are not.
You and other posters may like them better and you may have your reasons. They may perform actions that are considered devout better than priests in the Catholic Church and merit admiration for that, but they are not Catholic.
Im not sure what you imagine to be a “blind” defense of Vatican II, but certainly it should be defended – hopefully with eyes open – by all Faithful Catholics, otherwise you are not faithful to the magisterium. And besides that, Canisius, I’m sorry you find my criticisms of SSPX detestable because of my homosexuality, as though there is some nexus between the two. I suppose if I supported this heretical sect, instead, you would prefer that? No, I doubt that. More than likely, you would drag my homosexuality into THAT conversation as well, and find my support of SSPX to be equally detestable. Isn’t that right, Canisius?
…then by all means, YFC, defend VII with eyes wide open and call for the clarity the council deserves so that it will cease being perverted in order to promote a perverted deviation of what the Church has always taught.
Your indignity regarding what you ‘support’ is a disgusting joke, YFC, at least if one is to take your moniker at it’s full meaning. And yes, of course ‘your’ homosexuality would be drawn into it because you draw same sex attraction into the mix every time you oppose Church teaching and falsely assert that She needs to change in accordance with your desires and whatever pseudo scientific ‘discoveries’ you pull out of bias places to justify promoting heresy within the Church.
Abeca’s complete ignorance of fifth column tactics only is a clear sign as any that there are serious issues with those inside the Church if they cannot recognize how they aid and abet destruction.
YFC, I just find you detestable, I find homosexuals detestable and their onslaught of perversion on the Church and Society. You and the rest of the gays are the most destabilizing force in the Culture the acceptance of your perversion has thrown the doors wide open to any other sexual deviancy in the name “tolerance” . Faithful to the Magisterium ha, there’s a giant laugh, you spout that but proudly proclaim you march in gay shame parades. At least I am consistent YFC, I believes gays should be removed the Church at every level for the pollution they have caused. I grew up in that cesspool and see exactly what the end results are.. sexual and social chaos..
Anon state your bilge somewhere else,, the SSPX has defended more often than the feckless Archdiocese ever did and I go to the TLM at a parish in the archdiocese
I know you find me detestable Canisius, that was precisely my point. So perhaps you should offer your own criticisms of SSPX instead of relying upon mine. But whether you detest me or not does not make SSPX unworthy of criticism.
YFC, will attack the good and holy people of SSPX while proudly waving that perverted rainbow flag, yet he honestly believes he is a good Catholic
By the way, Canisius, if an old detestable sodomite like myself can see the evil and duplicity in SSPX and many of her followers, then anyone should be able to, right?
Yes, and even a five year old who has been taught the fullness of Faith would understand that hiding most of it in the closet is not a good thing. So what is the ‘duplicity’ you take issue with, YFC, the fullness of the Faith that seemingly was not changed by VII? Come on. Even an ole sodomite like you can be honest once and a while.
Canisius I do not want to get into a debate with you, its not productive. I do not want to lose respect for you because I have always had much compassion for you and what you shared with us here. Just know that I continue to pray for you. What you view as ” finger wagging its becoming tiresome.” is your own, I have no power over your emotions and how you view things and what you decide to give a blind eye to, just like you have no power over YFC and how he views his sexuality. And no one is denying the issues we face in the church but if you know your faith, the issues have always been here with us since its beginning because of sin……so your argument there is irrelevant. We must follow the teachings of the saints and the wholeness of truth that the faith contains and live it…..God bless you dear friend! We can agree to disagree respectfully.
SSPX Confessions and Weddings are NOT valid. Sorry, Linda Maria.
Thats right anonymous on what you posted on their sacraments. Ps There is so many posters posting as anonymous that its hard to tell who we are replying to.
Canisuis I disagree with you, you are only focused on the irrelevant post from the Eye of the tiger, I threw that in for a reason but the main ones that save souls, you keep ignoring, just like the others. This hypocrisy and doubles standards will not save souls. Here are words from the ones you defend:
These are words they use to manipulate:
1. excess of estrogen
2. Manufactured Martyr syndrome
4. They mock the term Full communion because they have hostility in their hearts
5.state of manufactured anemia
6.They abuse the word charity to mean only on their terms, but notice the hostile words they use when speaking to those of good will
7. and let us not forget the famous mocking and judging ill fully of “I SMELLED THE ROSES FIRST.”
8. How about the distorted vision that the whole church has gone bad, ignoring Jesus promises in regards to His church, how about when you, yourself wish that the OF mass would be gone….you argue about the Mass, you may have your preference but for you to make such unholy comments against any Mass approved by Christ’s church according to GIRM, gives an impression of Schism and heresy, scandal! Etc…..
“…but for you to make such unholy comments against any Mass approved by Christ’s church according to GIRM, gives an impression of Schism and heresy, scandal!”
Dear Lady, STOP concerning yourself so much with appearances, human respect, and get to the root of the problem. You trip yourself up on the law, negating its purpose entirely. And that, dear lady, is a gross scandal for it speaks of blind, blind, blind sheep being led blindly by blind Bishops. Wake up!
Repent and sin no more.
“Repent and sin no more.” Good advice, Abeca, now take it.
Canisius writes about lesbian nuns. Like a lot of young Catholic girls I thought about it (Ann, Abeca, Linda et. al how about you?) I guess that would have made me a lesbian nun. My question is: as a professed religious, would I have been spared going to prison in Canisius’ “enlightened time?”
…if you were faithful to your vows as a religious, C&H, likely not. But if you were a nun who openly advocated and indulged in same-sex sex while boldly proclaiming that ‘you’ are Church and other such nonsense, then most likely, off you’d go.
Nope. I would have ALL religious orders purged. Much like what the gays currently in control of the seminaries have done to good and holy men ..I see exactly what the acceptance of gays in the Society and the Church as done.. you don’t like that C&H I don’t care. As I mentioned already I grew in that cesspool I see exactly what happens. You can try and pretend all will be well, but throughout history when ever homosexuality has been made “normal” civilizations start to crumble and in turn it will be your side that starts the persecution of the Faithful and at that hour you and YFC will have decide whose side you really are on.
Our Lord speaking to St. Catherine of Siena
They [the homosexuals] not only fail from resisting the weakness [of fallen human nature] …. but they do even worse when they commit the cursed sin against nature. Like the blind and stupid, having dimmed the light of their understanding, they do not recognize the disease and misery in which they find themselves. For this not only causes Me nausea, but is disgusting even to the devils themselves whom these depraved creatures have chosen as their lords.
For Me this sin against nature is so abominable that for it alone five cities were destroyed by virtue of the judgment of My Divine Justice, which could no longer bear their iniquity ….
It is disgusting to the devils not because evil displeases them or because they find pleasure in good, but rather because their nature is angelic and flees upon seeing such a repulsive sin being committed. For while certainly it is the devil that first strikes the sinner with the poisoned arrow of concupiscence, nonetheless when a man actually carries out such a sinful act, the devil goes away.
(St. Catherine of Siena, El diálogo,
Awesome post, Canisius! I had never read this before. YFC and C&H and other ACTIVE homosexuals, repent now before it is to late!
I grew up in an area dominated by Slavic peoples, of various Orthodox churches, not in union with Rome. There were also Eastern Rite Catholic churches, along with our own Latin Rite Catholic churches, both of which are in union with Rome. We had, altogether, many wonderful nationalities, in all of the churches! Well, whenever we would have Adoration, many Orthodox and Eastern Rite Catholics attended, along wtih us. Once, I asked several Orthodox worshippers, why they came, wondering if their priests would be mad! (Would they be seen, at Adoration, in the middle of the night?) They replied that by custom, their churches did not have the reserved Blessed Sacrament, yet they loved our Adoration– so they came! I admired their religious devotion! Well, the SSPX is not in union with the Pope, as they differ with Vatican II. Yet– they, too, are our brothers in Christ– and Rome states that their Sacraments are valid, yet they have no legal status, with our Church.
Linda Marie, they don’t want legal status in the Church; they turned down every attempt of the Church to reconcile with them.
Linda maria, 2 of the sacraments of the SSPX are NOT valid, Confession and Matrimony. We have corrected you about this before, so please stop spreading lies about the SSPX sacramental validity. Besides which, the episcopal ordinations undertaken by Archbishop Lefebvre were immediately excommunicatory, as will be any further episcopal ordinations by any of Lefebvrian’s 4 Bishops.
“Your Fellow Catholic”: This is a bit more complex than you describe. Recall, initially, that the “excommunications” you mentioned were lifted through Pope Benedict. They are no longer in effect. What you say is mere speculation (although a good number of Zombie-Liberals in the Church hate the SSPX because they are good and valid Catholic priests).
You also ignore that SSPX priests are ordained, and can offer Mass, and other sacraments, mostly. Their mass may be “illicit” (given the canonical status issue, which is pretty murky at this point), but it is valid. It is true that, at present, the SSPX has not received “jurisdiction” to hear confessions or to witness marriages, so they cannot do so within the Roman Catholic Church. As Father Z recently wrote, “The priests of the Society of Pius X, may be holy, generous, stalwart, good men and priests. I have met some. I have been favorably impressed. However, they lack the jurisdiction to hear confessions or officiate at weddings. No proper authority has given them the faculties to act for the Church. When it comes to certain sacraments that are also juridic acts, that makes all the difference.” (See Fr. Z’s blog site of September 21, 2013.)
Remember we are talking about two sacraments and about the grant of permission that, as the sad history of Rome and the SSPX point out, is entirely political. The Vatican has been under siege since the awful “implementation” of Vatican II, and will not relent to fully recognize the SSPX (yet).
It is not entirely political, it is doctrinal, and we have provided quotes from Rome saying as much. If more episcopal ordinations come, as at least one SSPX Bishop says he may do, without the permission of Rome, Canon Law says they will be excommunicated. This is not speculation, it is Canon Law.
All the sacraments celebrated by SSPX are illicit/illegal/part of no public ministry of the Church. Two of them are not only illicit/illegal/no part of the ministry of the Church but they are also invalid. This is not speculation, it is Canon Law.
…and yet marriages conducted in the Society are recognized by many a diocese. This is not speculation, but reality. So perhaps the word on what is truly valid/invalid needs to come down clearly from the Vatican in such a way as to remove all doubt – and that’s a huge part of the whole crisis we’ve been discussing, isn’t it, YFC?
Interesting how you embrace the ‘pastoral’ elevation of conscience to be supreme for you, but fail to acknowledge the complete hypocrisy of your tagging that which is Catholic as somehow anti-Catholic when it suits.
Thanks yet again for the post :)
“Your Fellow Catholic”: Not doctrinal at all. Don’t count on a “Vatican” source here and there to say anything of value as to the SSPX. They were the first to jump on trying to get Francis to “re-excommunicate” the SSPX (unsuccessfully, so far, although various local bishops are trying to do the same thing).
Your babbling about the sacraments provided by the SSPX is not surprising. All Zombie-Liberals, including HomoFascists, want to shut the SSPX up in the worst way. Why? Because the SSPX reverently and humbly provide the sacraments in the same way as our Fathers did, and without apology. These are men, masculine men, who do not mince around the card table, whining that women are misunderstood (and barely able to control themselves around liberal politicians and women’s groups that want to be priests).
Their sacraments are not invalid, they are illicit, but valid. Two sacraments, for definitional, legalistic — political — reasons, are not valid (to the Roman Catholic Church). These reasons have nothing to do with doctrine, but with mere recognition of the SSPX in a certain way. The SSPX priests are priests in every sense of the word, but they lack “permission”.
Ann Malley, which Diocese recognize SSPX marriages? We need to write to them and inform them of their error. Unless, of course, you believe in relativism, modernism, and a whole host of other “isms”.
Chris, it doesn’t matter WHY 2 SSPX sacraments are invalid, they just ARE invalid. You can play word games all you like, but they ARE INVALID. The ordination of the 4 SSPX bishops was illicit/illegal/not part of the public ministry of the Church. THey have splintered left, right, and center, because they have given up all notion that they need to be in communion with the Roman Pontiff. Once you sever your ties to Peter, you sever all ties to each other, just take a look at protestantism.
…what parish allows you to be a Eucharistic minister and approves of your ‘marriage’, YFC? We need to write that down… because you do believe in relativism. :)
The Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera published on 22 December 2013 an interview with Müller in which he was asked: “Now that the discussions have failed, what is the situation of the Lefebvrians?” Müller replied: “The canonical excommunication for the illicit ordinations has been lifted from the bishops, but the sacramental de facto excommunication for schism remains; they have departed from communion with the Church. We do not follow that up by shutting the door, we never do, and we call on them to be reconciled. But on their part too, they must change their attitude and accept the Catholic Church’s conditions and the Supreme Pontiff as the definitive criterion of membership.”
Taken from the Wikipedia page on the SSPX
So they are in schism and they are excommunicated.
YFC isnt it ironic these people defend SSPX, they are wrong to do so but you defend acts against the natural law. They have that in common with you. You both disobey the church in those topics. Can you see that their behaviour is similar to yours but in different forms of defiance. I don’t want you nor those who support the spiritual problematic of defiance of SSPX to think im disrespecting you but i brought this up to show how you both clash in one way or another yet both refuge to obey in different teachings. There is that similarity between you two. I continue to keep everyone in my prayers.
Eye of the tiger news: Peoria, AZ – SSPX Arizona Bishop Gerald Leif confirmed Thursday that he has installed four bishops in spite of SSPX forbiddance. The move comes months after meetings collapsed between Bishop Leif and SSPX’s Superior General, Bernard Fellay. Leif, a prominent critic of the Society’s growing liberal view toward ecumenism has denounced the Society’s dialogue with the Vatican. A spokesman for the Diocese of Arizona declined to comment, but did say that the four newly appointed bishops would continue to acknowledge the authority of Bernard Fellay as supreme head of SSPX, but would defy the excommunication.
Original print date: 9-14-2012 Wow even defiance with in their own sect….
we also need to ask ourselves what yielding of spirit allowed us to be exercise the false mercy of dealing with the devil.
Eye of the Tiber is a joke website, Abeca. Wow is right. Eye of the Tiber also reported that Pope Francis is granting Henry the VIII a postumous annulment and Queen Elizabeth is going to dissolve the Anglican Church. (They have some really funny stuff there.)
The fact that you went there and believed what you read shows just how obsessed you are and with issues you haven’t a clue about. Good gravy.
Maybe you should stick to reading the early Church fathers and not smearing the Pope the way you did earlier. You still haven’t apologized for your own scandalous insinuations, dear lady.
Abeca check it again its, Eye of the Tiber and its a complete satirical newspaper
Ann Malley, why be vicious?
I don’t know why Abeca Christian is so vicious, mous. She’s behaving abominably and then makes it worse by feigned holiness. But you contribute to that, friend, which makes you an accessory.
Abeca, there are similarities, but there are important differences. So thanks for asking the question so that I may explain further. My public dissent from the “Church’s teaching” is from those people who claim, falsely, that there is some definitively held teaching that civil marriage between same sex couples is part of divinely inspired revelation. The Church’s Bishops and all the faithful have never held such a thing. There is nothing in Tradition or Scripture that directly and clearly relates to the civil institution of marriage – and Church doctrines about civil marriage have evolved over the centuries and will continue to do so. Christ never spoke of such a thing, apparently, so it is impossible to know definitively what Christ thinks of the developments. He may wholly disapprove of it. It is for us to discern that, but there is no universal agreement among all the Bishops and all the faithful that such civil unions are immoral or to be prohibited. The Church cannot add to nor detract from anything in Divine Revelation.
On the other hand, the Church has always from its very earliest days said that Peter is the rock upon which the Church is built. That is pretty foundational language. And from at least the time of Saint Ignatius of Antioch, the primacy of Peter has been the way we understood Christ’s intentions. THIS is why I converted to Catholicism in the first place. It is a very large component of Divine Revelation.
“…it is impossible to know definitively what Christ thinks of the developments.”
And so goes the bait for the willfully gullible.
YFC, with all due respect if the catechism of the Catholic Church says that sexual relations between people of the same sex can never be condoned, and it does say that, no faithful Catholic could condone it in any way, and that is what so-called same-sex marriages would be, whether civil or religious — the condoning of sodomy. There is a difference between decriminalizing something and condoning it. No faithful Catholic should even vote for such “marriages”. Marriage was and is meant to unite a man with a woman and any children who come from that union. Every child has the right to know his or her mother and father. To deliberately deny them that right is wrong, unfair and immoral.
YFC, many people have posted this before yet you choose to ignore it.
Homosexual marriage includes Sodomy or other sexual activity between persons of the same sex.
Regarding homosexual acts: Gen 19:1-29; Rom 1:24-27;
1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10; Jude 1:7.
Regarding Doctrine of the Faith:
CCC: ” 1660 The marriage covenant, by which a man and a woman form with each other an intimate communion of life and love, has been founded and endowed with its own special laws by the Creator.
By its very nature it is ordered to the good of the couple, as well as to the generation and education of children. Christ the Lord raised marriage between the baptized to the dignity of a sacrament (cf. CIC, can. 1055 § 1; cf. GS 48 § 1).”
There are 19 paragraphs in the CCC which clearly state marriage is between one man and one woman.
Also see Gen 2:24; Gen 4:1-2; 25-26; 5-1.
Everyone else is called to Chastity (no sexual activity). CCC: 2349, 2396. 2359.
Why would you want to send your fellow homosexuals to Hell for eternity by your public support for an disordered sexual lifestyle?
You are even partly responsible for the sins of your own sexual partner(s).
If you really loved your partner and other homosexuals you would want them to get to Heaven above your own sexual gratification.
The Catechism says nothing about same sex civil marriages.
YFC stop. Can you not see how much you have in common with those who support SSPX? Alot. You both pick and choose and distort the true teachings. Its elementary, God did not create Adam and Steve but he created Adam and Eve, His first commandment to all humanity was His natural law. YFC and SSPX supporters you are both wrong in your dissent. Reflection Proverbs 1 and 2. and Matthew 19:5. Also the holy family is a perfect witness of family too. Do not waste the precious pearls from God concerning Wisdom, do not allow anyone to come between you and God! YFC you are in God’s hands, you have been warned and corrected and so has those here who defend schism and heresies. You all have been warned, I no longer want to debate this, there are many truths that are not up for debate, especially the Magesterium and the Natural law. Also the instinctive evils, they are not up for debate nor changeable.
GOD bless you MAC. Lets continue to pray for one another and especially all here as well. May our Lord change hardened hearts. Thank you for caring to correct YFC in charity. YFC don’t sell yourself short. Give your will to God. Let His will be done. God is so merciful with you, that He has not strike you down for your acts against His natural law, He loves you and you are worthy of His love but you must repent and cooperate with His will to receive His graces. All who are of good will learn from these threads and see how easy it is for people to fall away when they lean on their own understanding and when they pick and choose what best suits them. We are all sinners, lets cooperate with God’s graces and the truths from His Catholic and Apostolic Church. May God tear down the pride that blinds many. PAX Christi
…when are you going to apologize for slamming Pope Francis, dear lady? Or do you conveniently forget your own sins when taking the onus to step outside your duty of state (going so far as to intimate that Eye of the Tiber is a credible news site) to finger wag and legislate according to your own understanding.
While your zeal for the Church is laudable, dear lady, your lack of depth perception, the very same that led you to fall for a satirical essay, is not something that all others suffer. That is many others, even those in ‘full communion’, understand that ‘your’ limited view of the situation with the SSPX is precisely that – excruciatingly limited. And erroneous.
That is no slam, dear lady, but rather the truth revealed by your consistent posting fueled mostly by your own hurt feelings. Even Cardinal Burke, whom you laud, steps light with regard to the Society. Perhaps you should follow ‘his’ lead, seeking full communion for all and faithfulness for all despite your own limited perspective. So indeed, may God tear down the pride that binds many – to include the dear lady to whom I post this missive.
This makes me think of what a very wise man would always say, “Always remember, there is the human part of the Church and the divine part of the Church. The human part of the Church has always stunk to high heaven from day one when they (the leadership) ran out of the garden fearing for their lives when Our Lord was arrested.” He would sometimes point out that St. John was the only one who had the sense to at least run to the Blessed Mother and he was the only one that wasn’t martyred. But then he would always conclude, “Always cling to the divine part of the Church – Christ.” He was 90 when he died and he had seen a lot and was very pious and prayerful so this made an impression on me. He would say this to me when he would hear people express concern about the leadership of the Church. It helped me keep things in perspective. The Church has had some great saints and some real stinkers in leadership. Sometimes at the same time. And while it’s always important to stand up for Christ and His Church and the truth, it’s also good to remember God is completely in charge. Christ promised us that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. It’s why I will always cling to it with everything I have – even if I don’t understand or like everything said or done by some in leadership.
Carol beautiful reflection. I agree with you. We have a lot of work to do. Protecting our church from heretics and schismatics both from the outside and inside. My life is all for Jesus and no body else. So with great love I will defend His church and truths. This double standard that is often happening here, while they bash our church they neglect to see how much worst off their own are, these issues with the SSPX are not to be taken lightly. So with great love, I pray that those of good will, who truly understand that our salvation is far more important than being popular, then agreeing with the majority of the people here, it is to address the very issues that slow down the true mission of our church, which is to save souls. Regardless of the excuses they make out of their own prejudges, but to keep our focus on Jesus Christ. For He is our beloved. Keep on and cling to Jesus. Trust in His promises to us.
Carol Mother Theresa once said that we have a perfect church but once humans run it, it is no longer perfect. Something like that but no matter what we must trust in our Lord’s promises and not lean on our own understanding but lean on Jesus. The faith is perfect but men are not. We must remain faithful to His church.
wonderful posting, Carol. And while the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church, that doesn’t mean there won’t be plenty of siegeworks and battering rams leaving the gates tattered from time to time.
There are two ways of interpreting that verse david, and I prefer the one that sees the gates of Hell as the one being unable to withstand or prevail against the Church’s hammering. We are called to go into all the world and spread the good news…in other words meet the enemy, the prince of this world, in his territory. As Napoleon said, an army runs on its stomach…and in the case of the Church’s army, what we’re fed is of crucial importance. What better way to weaken soldiers of Christ than to dilute the source of their strength. That is why there is this endless debate about licit Masses etc. For almost 2000 yrs. the Church had a very excellent and proven way of feeding its people…to build Western Civilization, build massive cathedrals, hospitals and schools, send thousands into enemy territory to build missions and churches…but in the last fifty years for some reason the Church has been losing millions of members, schools and parishes are closing, Catholic politicians promote same sex marriage and abortion…what’s happened? Ask yourselves…what happened.
“… As Napoleon said, an army runs on its stomach…and in the case of the Church’s army, what we’re fed is of crucial importance. What better way to weaken soldiers of Christ than to dilute the source of their strength.
Thank you Ann. I found a convent only 20 minutes away that has the TLM with confession an hour before! I am going this Sunday. I will let you know how it went. The church where I went occasionally was over an hour away but the service was so beautiful, with 8 altar boys, a fantastic choir and a beautiful orginal interior with marble altar rail, etc. This will be much more intimate, I think.
Now you’re raking in some serious graces, Dana. Our Lord seems to have gifted you with a hidden treasure! Are these Carmelites? Dominicans? Benedictines? Enjoy. And don’t worry about not being able to follow along every word in the missal – experience the mass and unite your prayers and awe and yearning for beauty. :)
I’m not sure, Ann, what they are, but I’ll let you know. I do know that the priest I talked to made a comment as to the diocese not being happy they were there because of the attitude toward the Latin Mass. On another topic, I’m including this website as I think it’s a pretty powerful statement…I used to subscribe to this magazine when I was first Catholic and when I saw this article on Rorate Caelli, I was shocked because First Things is George Weigle, Robt.George and all the mainstream intelligensia. Anyway, here it is. https://www.firstthings.com/blogs/mullarkey
for those who haven’t read it yet.
…and one more:
Thanks for the links, Dana. What you said about the diocese and the TLM doesn’t surprise me. That said, I’m glad that you will be added to their numbers. There is an overt and ongoing campaign to stifle the TLM and there are reasons why despite the doe-eyed trusting of those who should not be trusted.
Ann, I had to laugh at myself…I had just said yesterday that I was going to stop worrying about the pope and trust in God’s will, and there I am, back again, caught up in the unending drama. I will try harder! I do pray for him almost daily, but he just keeps going further out. sigh. About the TLM, I know our bishop is a democrat and all that, but he’s been ill off and on and I think he’s gotten much more spiritual…I copied Bp. Paprocki’s letter about putting the Tabernacle in the center of all his diocese churches, and I was thinking about sending it to him. We’ll see. :o
Dana, I wonder if some of it could be that that’s the story of salvation history. That people suffer and get closer to God, then things improve and after a while they get soft, and fall back into sin and then suffer and come back to God . . . and so on. While Western culture is not as Catholic as it used to be, isn’t the faith on the rise in other areas of the world? I don’t know the numbers but it would be interesting to find out.
Carol, I’ve read that Catholicism is growing very rapidly in African countries and in China. That said, one has to take into account that at one time all of the Mediteranean countries including Turkey, were Catholic. Where did all those millions of faithful and peaceful people disappear to? They were forced to convert, flee or in the majority of cases, lose their heads to the barbarian muslims that found easy victims (much like those in the cartoon publishing offices in France). Forgive me if I don’t bother with the bogus term “terrorists” since in the 8th and 9th centuries, we’re talking about how they spread their political/religious intolerant and frightening belief system on the world.
So, getting back to Africa and China, thousands lose their lives practically as soon as they convert, so it’s difficult to say what the actual conversion numbers are. I have also read that the Church is losing big time to protestant missionaries in S.America. What you’re talking about, a cyclical loss due to apathy etc. has never happened (especially on this scale) in the history of the Church, not even during the so-called reformation. Michael Voris’s web site has a huge library about much of this, I believe, but you have to be a member to use his resources. He can show you how the crisis in the Church is the greatest threat she has in her long and perlious history, even more than the Arian heresy or the muslim threat.
Dana, there is no reason to doubt what you say and the recent events in Paris are nothing but tragic and even more discouraging. Having lived in Chicago for many years where there are tons of Ukrainians I became aware of and familiar with the Ukrainian Catholic Church. One thing I learned s that it was once the largest underground Church in the world. When I left Chicago 11 years ago I heard though traditional Catholic circles, which are pretty small, that in Western Ukraine alone there were 6,000 seminarians. This was the same year so called gay marriage was legalized in MA. It made me hopeful that God was playing chess, sort of speak, and could put the devil in check mate and that we just needed to remain faithful to Him. I now wonder how much of this survived Putin and how bad things will get before they get better. I’m not a historian so I have little basis of comparison for that. I feel like all I can do is, as the saying goes, ‘work as though it all depends on you and pray as though it all depends on God.’ Thank you for your information and God Bless!
In March, 1996, Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz, of the Diocese of Lincoln, Nebraska, issued Extra Synodal Legislation which excommunicated Catholics belonging to certain specified groups. Here is a copy of the link: https://sspx.agenda.tripod.com/id90.html
the list mentioned:
Extra Synodal Legislation
All Catholics in and of the Diocese of Lincoln are forbidden to be members of the organizations and groups listed below. Membership in these organizations or groups is always perilous to the Catholic Faith and most often is totally incompatible with the Catholic Faith.
Society of Saint Pius X (Lefebvre Group)
Call to Action
Call to Action Nebraska
Saint Michael the Archangel Chapel (SSPX)
Catholics for a Free Choice
This must make some feel smugly self-approved—noting certain local episcopal ‘excommunications’ against trad Catholic groups—even though such excommunications, as in the canonical case of the famous “Hawaii Six” in 1991 (6 people who announced they could not in conscience continue attending the N.O. parishes of Honolulu diocese and that they were to attend SSPX services instead) was later overturned by Cardinal Ratzinger himself—thus proving once and for all that there is no schismatic act in attendance at an independent trad Catholic (esp. SSPX) chapel; also this case effectively established that the corresponding reception of these groups’ sacraments are valid.
The same individuals turn a blind eye to the break with Catholic moral tradition and will defend a future re – definition of marriage and of sexual roles. It’s all nonsense. False church nonsense.
dana, thanks for the alternate interpretation which blends beautifully with the church militant tradition of the fearless church going out to all corners of the e arth. but i prefer the long-standing traditional interpretation. msgr pope of the archdiocese of washington dc once reviewed the literature for this and concluded its greater reliability.
Thank you David. God bless!
Just for the record— I tried to write a post regarding the Slavic-dominated place I grew up in, very culturally rich. It was impressive to me, the love of Adoration, of Latin Rite Catholics, Eastern Rite Catholics, and Orthodox denominations, not in union with Rome! (Also, Our Blessed Mother is greatly loved, by all three religious groups!) Well, I forgot to put my name and email address, on the first post– so, Cal Catholic posted it anyway, under the title of “Anonymous!” Anyway– I re-wrote it, and remembered to put my name and email address, and this time, my post was properly printed! So– that leaves me to wonder, if there is an individual who uses the name “Anonymous” — and also, if there are many characters who do not sign their names, and Cal Catholic prints all of these “nameless” posts, under the title of “Anonymous!”
Carol, yes, if you do not fill in the Name blank, it gets posted as Anonymous. And yes, there are many of us. Some who also use a name at other times; some who sign their posts in the body of the text, like Kenneth Fisher.
I do not use my name as is recommended by internet safety experts.
Confusion experts would also agree that continuing to post as ‘Anonymous’ adds to confusion especially when one wants to continue a dialog thread with a named poster. :)
Linda Maria, if you don’t put your name in the NAME box, it gets posted as “Anonymous”. I also have a couple of times forgotten to check whether my browser put in my name, and it got posted as that. So we are in the same boat once in a while.
Where you there when they crucified my Lord? Where you there when they nailed him to the cross. Where you there when they broke away from His church and His promises? Where you there when they conveyed distrust? Where you there when they sold him off as someone else? The gates of Hell will not prevail against His Church but men who raise themselves above Christ and will try. The proud and the arrogant. Jesus is the victim and we will endure hard times. But we will never be shaken but we will only keep our focus in Jesus, who saves.
“…Where you there when they broke away from His church and His promises?” And where are you when they betray him under the umbrella of full communion and call it good, dear lady? Safely ensconced, no doubt, and derisive of those who have been scattered – not by those you consider to be outside, but by those who would continue to scandalize.
So yes, keep the focus on Jesus, for it is HE who saves.
You haven’t been scattered. Take responsibility for your choices.
Taking responsibility for one’s choices is precisely what leads me to where I am today, mous. I will not be scattered from the actual Faith any longer, nor allow my family to be in so much as it is in my jurisdiction to have any say in the matter.
Ann Malley, two wrongs don’t make a right.
You cannot justify a sin based on another’s sin.
God calls you to worship in His Church, His only Church, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. There is no other.
Seminarians cannot get ordained and then go start their own Church.
They promise obedience to the bishop. It is part of their priestly vows.
Some priests in the SSPX and other traditionalist priests have never been priests in the Catholic Church and have been illicitly ordained. Others have been suspended by the Church after disobedience to the bishop.
No one derides you or the others who have fallen for the false teachings of these wolves in sheep’s clothing. People pity you. They try to tell you that you are doing wrong, that you have left the fold. This is Jesus seeking His lost sheep. He must want you back pretty badly for him to send so many to try to lead you back to safety. How have you treated those He sends? You have insulted them; mocked them; demeaned them. You have belittled them and occasionally, you have thanked but no, thanked them. You have done this to Jesus. People are only his instruments.
There is no false teaching there, mous, just what the Church has always taught. The Faith. Regarding Jesus, you need to look to how you go about your seeming recalling of the sheep to the sheepfold. What you do to others, you do to Jesus as well. Many forget that in their zeal.
But again, focus on cleaning up the house and the sheep will naturally return. Be honest about the mess at home. Charity begins there, mous, at home. So fix the problems and be consistent. Much like wearing a full habit for a religious, it evangelizes without a word.
Denying the mess and deriding folks for not joining you is counterproductive.
Ann Malley, when did the Church ever teach that the priests She ordains can start their own chapels independent of the local Church?
When did the Church ever teach that priests that have done something to incur the canonical penalty of suspension can say a public Mass?
When did the Catholic Church ever teach that it is desirable for priests to hold to a previous centuries understanding of the Will of God and divorce itself from the current understanding?
When did the Catholic Church ever teach that Mass was evil?
When did the Catholic Church ever teach that individuals in the Church can declare a pope a heretic?
When did the Catholic Church ever teach that priests can disobey a Pope?
…learn the history of that which you think you are going to slam, Anonymous. That and what an organization actually holds to be true. It would make you a little more credible at minimum. What you keep doing is tantamount for slamming a dairy farm for promoting alcoholism because a cow on the farm is named Brandy.
God bless you just the same :)
Kind of ducked the issues, did you not?
…I’ve already stated the issues, mous, but have no desire to restate them only to be argued with ad nauseum by someone without basic understanding. I’ve already tried that with another dear ‘lady’ here on CCD and she flipped her holy hat, blindly defending something by way of promoting that it should be repeatedly abused for want of clarification.
One needs to be up to the education at hand before asking questions that are above their reading level.
Anonymous says it well.
…then look to your own duplicitous behavior, YFC.
The SSPX should be back within the Catholic Church, without question. And, its leadership wants to be, and has always wanted to be.
Your critique of “Ann Malley”, however, is wrong. The SSPX priests are fully priests, as many responders have advised. Their lack of jurisdiction regarding certain sacraments is limited, and is strictly political in nature. There are many, many poor to bad clerics in the Church today. Their statements and direction about the SSPX carries with it the hate of Tradition, not of the advancement of the Catholic Church or of the salvation of Mankind.
It is likely, “Anonymous”,. that you simply hate Tradition. And, depending on which “Anonymous” that you are, why this is so. The apostasy of the present Church will change, perhaps as earlier as October. If at that time, a “new morality” on sexual ethics is announced, it will split the Church. A priest or Pope, simply cannot say that night is day, or that gravity no longer exists, or that the Church will now be run on the principles of Hugh Hefner or Fidel Castro, or that homosexual “love” can ever be sacred and respectable, and be accorded any legitimacy.
Talks with Bishop Fellay have resumed and it seems that the Church is doing what it can to make it easier for them.
SSPX preists are fully priests. But they are suspended priests and they are not supposed to say Mass or perform any other sacrament. When they say Mass it is illicit. The sacrament is valid (the Real Presence of Jesus Christ is in the Eucharist) but it offends God when they do this. It is not OK for them to do it, even if ostensibly they conform to the Catholic Faith prior to Vatican II (except for the part of staying in union with the Pope and not saying Mass when they were suspended. It is no different than a pedophile or a gay marriage supporter or an ordination of women supporter who has been suspended. They are excommunicated because they break this canon law. Suspended priests are not to say Mass publicly, cannot present themselves as Catholic priests etc.
I do not hate tradition or Tradition. Do you know the difference?
I am standing up for tradition and Tradition.
That is a lie Christopher, you are speaking against what the church declared on the SSPX, you are in grave error. Ann Malley’s behavior also speaks volumes but I am not surprised that you would stand up for her bad behavior here.
God bless Fr. Paul Nicholson for speaking the truth about the SSPX.
YFC and anonymous persons….you may post some facts about the current dilemma of the SSPX but they won’t listen to it because they are full of pride and also because those comments come from you. They have already decided for themselves that anything coming from you is not true. Even if you post truths from the faith. YFC what doesn’t help is your stand on homosexual lifestyles which I understand them on, also any conservative protestant too is like minded there with our church on those issues. But they lack to see their double standards. They discredit themselves because of their tone of schism and heresy to defend the SSPX. YFC I don’t want to beat up on you, its not that, but I do not appreciate your support for homosexual lifestyles. As like they reason well on moral issues just like you reason well on some facts about on what the church teaches. They are wrong to support what the SSPX stands for just like you are wrong to support “gay” ideologies. Both are scandals that are often posted here on this website.
Abeca, dear lady, you are deluding yourself in thinking that YFC acts alone in his attitudes. Look to what occurred at the October synod and you will have greater clarity on the disparity of approaches *within* the Church.
So take up “tone of schism” with the Bishops who vented that which goes against the teaching of the Catholic Church, the very same that run their diocese according to their beliefs by enforcing some things and not enforcing certain other things – wink, wink. For while you may want to believe the best, these Bishops lead according to what they believe…and the malformation many received way back in seminary. One doesn’t just decide overnight to extol the value of relationships that ape marriage.
What the Society ‘stands for’ is a fullness of that which is Catholic, Abeca, And your ‘behavior’ in rejecting reality to focus on how ‘you’ are treated says much about what really matters to you. As for Fr. Nicholson, I pray he wakes up and realizes that alienating allies in the coming battle is just plain foolishness. His rigidity on the matter smacked more of an attempt to retain market share than reality.
And, Abeca, your admonishment to St. Christopher only adds to the absurdity. His ability to comprehend the issues within the Church and talk about them openly is real evangelization. People are smarter than you think – even people outside the Church. So lying or perpetually negating reality like you do and slamming the Pope only to claim faithfulness is real turn off.
Remember the website ‘Abeca Christian meet YFC ‘
YFC writes, “So thanks (Abeca) for asking the question so that I may explain further. ” = The tone of a set up at the new OK ( see world he reasons well) Gifts Coral.
“So lying or perpetually negating reality like you do and slamming the Pope only to claim faithfulness is a real turn off.” You’re right Ann. That is certainly not consistent.
Ann Malley, why do you feel the need to say things that you know are not true.
Abeca is faithful. Nothing SHE has written about the Pope was slamming him.
You think you have something to needle her with, but what it really does is show your lack of character.
How I wish you would become a Christian.
Sorry to burst your bubble, mous, but the dear lady in question compared Pope Francis to Archbishop Lefebvre. Stating that they both cause confusion. That may not be a slam in your book, but considering Abeca’s “I am faithful, I am faithful” parrot routine, it is at the very least something for which she should answer. But she won’t. Too busy slathering on 35 SPF righteousness so as to not be burned by her own posts.
This is exactly how I predicted it to be. The ladies and their SSPX supporters would all come and take the bait. They are the evil slime that also corrupts our church just like the gay activists. Judging them by their own words and their own disobedience. I posted strong facts about the SSPX and what the church teaches and then also posted a few, very few weak articles from other sources, they only reflected on the weak ones but still they deny the truth from the strong ones. Shame on them for their schismatic ways and heretical point of view. On another thread I posted the question ” does anyone know where the first same sex union was performed, what country” It was a trap to show the double standards and the twisting of words that Catherine seems to continue here, it worked, she posted as I suspected alone came her accomplice! Never fails. . Its not hard to see that these ladies have a lot in common with those who distort the truth about the natural law. They are both blinded and focus on what is fitting to their agendas. Glad that we can see how these ladies work. This thread and others are a perfect display of how hard they are trying to bear false witness and their double standard.
God bless you Anonymous. I’m not worried about their opinions, for they are dissenters against the true faith. Their opinion of me, I could care less. They have let go of good common sense long ago and as long as Ann Malley goes to confession to SSPX, their sacraments are not valid, so this is a good clue as to why they are in such bad will. Pray for them and if they continue this way, leave then in God’s hands, God is Justice and they will learn the hard way. I trust in God.
….are you ‘slime’ Abeca for slandering Pope Francis by comparing him to one you consider a heretical schismatic? Good gravy. I think I detect the ‘tone of schism’ – that is division from common sense.