The following comes from a July 24 story on al.com.
The religious network founded in Alabama by a nun, pioneer TV broadcaster Mother Angelica, is moving into the famous former building of another pioneer TV evangelist.
The Alabama-based EWTN Global Catholic Network has begun construction of its first West Coast television production facility in the church building formerly known as Crystal Cathedral, where TV Evangelist Robert Schuller for years broadcast his popular “Hour of Power.”
EWTN will remain headquartered in Irondale, Ala., where it has its main studio.
Crystal Cathedral Ministries, the ministry that grew out of the church founded by Schuller in 1955, filed for bankruptcy in 2010.
The campus near Disneyland was purchased by the Catholic Diocese of Orange, California in 2011 for $57.5 million and the church has been renamed Christ Cathedral. EWTN hopes to begin using the studio to transmit news, televised Masses, and inspiring stories of faith to its global audience by the end of the year. A joint announcement of the new facility was made at the annual Napa Institute gathering in Napa, California on July 24 by EWTN Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Michael Warsaw and Bishop Kevin Vann, head of the Diocese of Orange.
The diocese took possession of the property in September 2013 and began an extensive renovation to restore the 34-acre campus and its seven buildings, upgrading them to modern earthquake and energy efficiency standards. The diocese has worked to develop the facility to share its events, liturgical celebrations, news and other topics of interest with audiences throughout Southern California and the world….
To read the entire story, click here.
I wonder if this is a good idea. The beauty of Mother Angelica in her prime was that she operated independently of the U.S. bishops, who had little success with programming in the broadcast media. Mother Angelica was unabashedly orthodox, and wouldn’t be afraid to call out a bishop when he promoted error (remember her flap with Cardinal Mahony of Los Angeles?) I noticed since her retirement, EWTN has soften in its orthodoxy; I couldn’t believe, for example, that the National Catholic Register (owned by EWTN) did a Q&A with Fr. John Jenkins of Notre Dame, who is hardly a supporter of the Old Time Religion. I wonder if being in a diocesan office will further compromise EWTN, and pressure them to run the bland pabulum that we’ve come to expect from many–but not all!–US bishops.
That’s simply not true. EWTN has not softened its level of orthodoxy. What is has done is become less severe and strident in how it communicates. Some people actually LIKE that severe and strident behavior (they equate it to orthodoxy which is false) but all it does is turn people off in the long run.
While I would never defend Roger Cardinal Mahony, his debacle with Mother ANgelica was embarrassing to the Church. Two overly proud people trying to conquer each other.
This is a wonderful move and it’s a good indicator of how things are happening in the diocese and the state.
Severe? When and how was EWTN displaying severity?
I have been watching EWTN since its launch and never observed severe behavior on any of its telecasts.
What a beautiful development! More concrete proof that the Catholic Church is once again becoming quite orthodox in California as it once was in the past. While the Christ/Cathedral/Crystal Cathedral bigots will continue to spew their ignorance and hatred, it’s becoming more and more clear that this is going to be an extremely important place worldwide for Catholic worship and pilgrimage.
I suspect Pope Francis will visit the very first year the cathedral is reopened. I think it would be extra special if he was the person who consecrated Christ Cathedral.
Amen! I cannot wait for Pope Francis to visit!
“… it’s becoming more and more clear that this is going to be an extremely important place worldwide for Catholic worship and pilgrimage.”
We shall see if the Mass of All Ages will be allowed to be celebrated here. There is NO reason at all it shouldn’t be. Unless the modernists who hate the TLM with all their might shun it as has been the case since 1969.
Clinton,
Please don’t hold your breath for that!
May God have mercy on an amoral Amerika and His Church!
Viva Cristo Rey!
Yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M.
Fisher, Founding Director
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc
Your comments are so terribly ignorant and nasty…
I suspect the EF Mass will be celebrated there if there is sufficient demand for it. My best guess is there won’t be.
There is also the issue of time. There may well be successive OF Masses scheduled from 07:00 to the evening on Sundays in English, Spanish and Vietnamese simply to handle the huge demand in OC.
Maybe the EF can be celebrated in one of the chapels? It likely wouldn’t require space for more than 100-200.
Oh, give it a rest, anonymous. There’s no hatred being spewed. Just because people express themselves passionately does not mean they’re hateful. Because you may gum your gruel for breakfast and find it good does not mean people hate you for your taste in oatmeal if they say they hate bland cereal and love eggs over easy and crisp bacon! Can you not see the difference?
I do love eggs, bacon, toast and sometimes oatmeal, too. Your metaphors often leave me hungry, Dana!
The Crystal Cathedral cannot be converted into a beautiful, traditional Catholic cathedral, due to its modern design– which the bishops prefer. Our post-Vatican II Church leaders seem to have little interest in religious beauty, for the glory of God, unlike their predecessors! They have also rejected the traditional Catholic church design, which is so sad! Beautiful, traditional Catholic churches attract people for prayer, and result often, in big conversions! They are a pathway to God, for many people! As for poor Mother Angelica– Cardinal Mahoney killed her TV career, and gave her serious health setbacks, too, due to stress. He is diabolic! And St. John Paul II, in the Vatican, refused to defend her! That is one of the most evil results of Vatican II, that I have ever seen! The Devil himself at work!! The EWTN network then went into the hands of less-orthodox laymen, due to this situation. (Of course– post-Vatican II Church leaders, do not like orthodox Catholicism! Poor Mother Angelica!)
You’re simply wrong. There are beautiful Catholic Church buildings of many many different design styles. Not all have to be “traditional” in order to be beautiful. Beauty is objective and I think it bothers many to realize that Christ Cathedral will be beautiful.
Roger Cardinal Mahony in NO WAY “killed” Mother Angelica’s “TV career” nor did he impact his health If anything she became even more famous amongst her fans. In any event Mahony very quietly lives ~60 miles away in North Hollywood in a totally different archdiocese. He has nothing at all to do with this blessed event.
R. B. Rhodda, forgive me if I am wrong, but weren’t you the one who wrote in the past that you hate “bowling style churches”?
CC is hardly a bowling alley church. It’s very much the opposite.
EWTN is independent and will stay independent from the USCCB–just like Mother Angelica set it up. EWTN outreach will continue to grow and many will “come and see”.
This will be a beautiful addition to Christ’s Church in So. Cal.
Amen!
It’s stunning to see the hatred for this building/complex. It almost smacks of evil.
Rodda after his speech flings out arms dramatically, turns with tragic expression, exit left. Lights dim. Small blue spotlight beams down empty stage. Sigh.
Rodda’s next book “Smacks of Evil: Critics of Modern Architecture and the New Dark Ages” coming soon to bookstores near you!
OMGosh I needed a laugh today. Thanks for the visual, Dana. Perfect!
Well, not so fast — EWTN today, is not the same organization founded by good Mother Angelica. Cardinal Mahony — remember him? — pretty well beat up the good Mother, and helped to transform, indirectly at least, EWTN. Much, much better for any “Catholic” organization to have nothing much to do formally with any diocese or bishop (with only a few exceptions). Bishop Vann is little different than Bishop Brown, and he is continuing the same nutty idea of “transforming” a Protestant building into a “Catholic worship center”. We will see what the final project looks like: will there be kneelers (early indications suggest not); a center Tabernacle? Altar rails? Appropriate statuary and side altars? An avoidance of pagan-inspired incense burners and dancers? Whew — the list goes on, and on. You see, it is like the “song” “Amazing Grace”? An OK hymn, but not for Catholic churches (no we are not “wretches” here), notwithstanding how it is sung, or arranged. This building is simply wrong, but that decision has already been made, so good luck. The placement of EWTN there also is wrong. It will entirely submerge whatever potential existed to maintain a separate, “traditional” Catholic view point and activity base series of programs. There is no chance of this now that Bishop Vann has his mitts on the very programming site. You did as well as possible Mother Angelica, but EWTN at the Crystal Cathedral will be much different than when the TLM was broadcast from the Shrine of the Most Blessed Sacrament Church in Hanceville, Alabama. “Anonymous” your “wonder” is greatly misplaced; send to donation to the Shrine.
How exciting. The Lord moves in mysterious ways, His wonders to perform.
Welcome EWTN!
EWTN is the most orthodox communications system that we have in this country. It is expanding its facilities to better serve the Catholic faithful So let’s dump on it. It is horrible that it will be near a “modern” church. It is horrible that it will be within shouting distance of a Bishop. It may or may not have a TLM because you know how much Bishops hate that. Good grief folks! Is there nothing that will not bring out the conspiracy theorist, the haters of anything created after 1802? How different it would be if we could bring ourselves to say
Bravo and wish them good luck in their new venture. What drives many Catholics away from the church are other Catholics who constantly complain and do it in a nasty way, as demonstrated by so many of the posts already received on this thread Stop it! For God’s sake, stop it already!
If there’s no celebration of the EF Mass it’s because there isn’t sufficient demand for it. Like it or not the EF won’t be celebrated for 97 people in a cathedral designed to hold 3,000.
I suspect the Tridentiners could make use of a chapel, or possibly even the Arboretum that’s also on campus.
Sad that the Mass that nurtured the faith of saints over the centuries, has been relegated to the fringes by the progressives who have run amok over the last 50+ years. But yet we can have Spanish, Tagalog, Vietnamese, etc Masses? What is this, the Tower of Babel. Holy Mother Church has a language for unity, Latin.
Perhaps they simply prefer the OF Mass to the EF Mass? There’s absolutely no difference to the two forms with regard to validity or efficacy.
Oh yeah and much of the Church (the many Eastern Catholic churches) do NOT use Latin and never have. So much for your unity theory.
And why do we have a OF? what was wrong with the Mass they way it was and should have always been? The answer: Modernists hated it because it did not fit in with their ecumenical schemes. They wanted to de-emphasize the Sacrificial nature of the Mass. And as for unity, there was a time when you could go to Mass in any country and know what was going on because every Mass was the same. Today, Tower of Babel Masses. Circus Masses, Jazz Masses, LBGT Masses, Black Culture Masses, etc. This is better? This is the same as the TLM? According to who? This is not honoring God with the best we can give Him. Not by a long shot.
Well said, Clinton. And a darned good question.
Perhaps the Cathedral designed to hold 3000 would actually hold that many if the TLM were offered there. But that’s one experiment nobody wants to conceive of, because it may actually work.
There is already plentiful data on EF Mass attendance in SoCal in which to base decisions…
And there is plenty of data to show kids aren’t doing as well in school as they could be. That’s not out of preference, R.B. Rodda, but years of not being given that which would help them read and do well.
Even if there is only one person(one soul) attending the Latin Mass, the Mass of all times is still worth saying there.
Even it is the priest himself with no one else in attendance, it is still worth offering the TLM.
God bless you for posting truth, RR.
Will Mother Angelica be relocating as well?
Barbara, I get a monthly newsletter from Mother Angelica’s nuns and they keep us all informed as to her condition. She has lost interest in day to day activities and spends all her time in prayer…she’s got one foot in heaven, her next relocation.
God Bless our dear Mother Angelica.
I think that Bishop Vann will try to do whatever he can with his predessessor’s purchase. Sometimes baby steps are all we get…
Mrs. Clark,
Baby steps like not opposing the heterodox (that is putting mildly) REC that occurs in the confines of the Diocese of Orange.
Oh, I get it, according to a letter from the Diocese, they have nothing to do with the REC.
Bishop Vann will have a hard time explaining that to Our Lord and His Mother when He shows him the souls that were misled by the REC heretics!
May God have mercy on an amoral Amerika and His Church!
Viva Cristo Rey!
Yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M.
Fisher, Founding Director
Concerned Roman Catholics of America, Inc
So now you believe you speak for Jesus Christ? How horridly arrogant!
Kenneth, isn’t the diocese telling the truth when they say they don’t have anything to do with the REC? It is a program of the LA archdiocese, not Orange. It is held in a convention center in Orange, but I doubt that that makes the bishop of Orange responsible. I think that attendance this year was in the 35000 to 40000 range, with people from all over the world. How many showed up to protest?
This purchase was approved by then Pope Benedict XVI.
The following story makes an important reference to EWTN’s Spanish-language channels: https://www.ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/US.php?id=10422
I think what drives Catholics away from the Church, is when there is too much confusion, too many superficial gimmicks, meaningless, irreligious, irreverent “modernization,” projects, and harmful, dangerous scandals. Contrary to what many babyish Church leaders think– excellence in the Church always draws millions of worshippers to God! “Gimmicks” may superficially attract some people, especially the young, who lack experience— but when they look deeper, as time goes by, and find nothing– they leave. Some worshippers find a stronger, better-supported religious faith, in good evangelical churches that are Biblically-based, and honest with teaching Christian morality and responsibility, in daily living. Marriage and family life can flourish, with the support of these evangelical, Biblically-based Protestant churches. They have attracted many worshippers– especially ex-Catholics of Latin America, since Vatican II!!
Linda Maria, you are right. The other thing that appeals to those who depart for Evangelical churches is the fellowship and the willingness to talk about how to live an upright life. Many of our Catholic brethren do not look, speak or behave any differently than the mainstream culture. As a single woman of “a certain age”, I can also tell you that I feel totally alienated from parish life, whereas my non-Catholic Christian friends have support and encouragement in their daily walk.
and you can use birth control!
and you can interpret the Bible anyway you want!
and there is no mortal sin that will cause you to go to hell!
and you don’t have to go to confession!
and you can divorce and remarry with no consequence!
You don’t even have to go to church!
Oh yes, no doubt the modernization of the Catholic Church is why they leave-of course, it is.
No not at all Linda Maria. There is no confusion, only gossip, schism and other dissent that is the real reason we have problems. Only those that look for excuses leave and who do not know their faith.
I think dissent extremists drive people away from the Catholic Church. Be they dissident who describe themselves as “traditional Catholics” or those they describe/attack as “liberals.”
Dissent is a terrible, nasty thing. I know many “traditionalists” who push personal beliefs that simply are not supported by the Church. Ludicrous beliefs like the EF Mass is somehow superior to the OF Mass. Pushing their personal beliefs as if they are factual teaching of the Church are every bit as dissent and divisive as the things they feel compelled to attack.
You want to bring more people to the Body of Christ through His Catholic Church? That’s good! But stern, severe, self-congratulatory “OF-onlyism” and the like surely aren’t going to do it.
R.B Rodda you are correct. I no longer associate myself with fanatic traditionalist. Their attitude is like the Pharisees from the bible times. Catherine preaches but she does not practice what she preaches. Her advice to Abeca on another thread convinced me of the hypocrisy that people of like mind to hers, are rising themselves above God and they are the very persecutors to others of faith. Her behavior is uncharitable towards Charles, Rob and others.
Mrs A, you should look beyond the individuals involved, those you idolize and those you demonize. The idea of being a Pharisee is teaching that one must, “Do as I say,” regardless of what the spirit of the law teaches or what it is intended to do.
That said, we are taught by St. Paul that even if an Angel of Light comes to preach a different Gospel then we are to consider such an anathema. So in the flush of zeal what are you doing but castigating those who rightfully take this saying to heart and strive to uphold the Traditions of Holy Mother Church. (Shouldn’t your brotherly outreach begin at home with other Catholics? Shouldn’t you strive to prevent what you fear to be schism by patient dialogue?)
The person you idolize flips back and forth between praising and condemning. Look to the history of posts, Mrs A. “BRAVO Ann Malley” was written just this month by that poster. The same can be said for Holy Mother Church, look to the history – all of it – and seek to understand it outside the dismissive attitude that would have us ignore the past. It is that same call to forget the past and the very real differences between world religions that is leading to the rise of Islam even now.
But we cannot forget. Forgetting means forgetting Truth. That is not to condemn individuals, but rather to condemn error. Condemning error is charity.
No a Pharisee is someone who obeys the letter of the law and not the heart of the law, which is love. They give precedence to things which are vain and ignore substance. Please get to a real Catholic Church and only read authentic Catholic materials.
But what is love, Anonymous? Love is Truth and Charity in the telling of it, the fullness of it. Not the hiding from it. Get yourself out of your own ego and begin reading for content, not VII compliance only. That seems to be the only letter you understand or respond to.
That is why you forever reference what you are told you must do to be in compliance with the ‘current’ authority without a care for compliance with the whole or the reality of what precisely you are giving obedience to.
Mrs. A, = Perhaps the newly re-packaged version of *Mrs* k-A- nonymous, or perhaps our newest compromised contributor known as Mrs. A -mbiguity
Something tells me that you are not just some little ol’ housewife at home baking chocolate chip cookies while posting in between batches baking in the oven. Nevertheless you are serving an enlightening purpose. You have always done much to help showcase the very uncharitable vicious spirit that has often shown it’s extremely cruel face to those who DO accept “all” Church teaching. This most uncharitable type of behavior and bullying has been hoisted upon faithful Catholics in the United States for years and it does not matter whether they are under the umbrella of a diocese attending a TLM or OF or if they are SSPX. This is why you even initially tried to silence CCD as well as Michael Voris. You keep re-packaging your duplicity but it is very recognizable to anyone who knows the score. Also…. It was very uncharitable and not very Catholic of you to write that only schismatics and homosexuals visit this good website but we know why you said that. The bottom line is you are threatened by the TRUTH and you are just trying to silence the internet in the same fashion that you and your compromised ilk have used to scatter the flock and silence anyone who is not progressing with your duplicitous social justice agenda.
continued
continued from July 28, 2014 at 1:59 pm
CCD has many faithful priests, (who have also been attacked and undermined by your ilk) who regularly post on CCD as well as many faithful Catholic posters who also stand up for “all” of the teachings including the teachings regarding sexual morality. Those are the teachings that really seem to threaten YOU the most. It does not take a rocket scientist to recognize your duplicitous pattern.
Yes, Mrs. A-mbiguous, It was your well known band of compromised thieves and bullies who removed and silenced people in the chanceries, in seminaries, in parishes, in universities and grade schools and now you are attempting to also silence *anyone* who upholds “all” of the teachings. Our Lord had words for those compromised shepherds who deliberately scattered the flock. They are called, WOLVES IN SHEEP’S CLOTHING! These are also the same wolves who then duplicitously call these deliberately scattered sheep “schismatics” when they cried out for real social justice. These wolves in sheep’s clothing are absolutely thrilled when they scatter the faithful sheep and when they leave but there are still faithful sheep who want these scattered sheep to be re-united. Shame on MRS. A-MBIGUITY!
continued
continued from July 28, 2014 at 3:14 pm
Douay-Rheims Bible
Prophecy Of Jeremias (Jeremiah) Chapter 23: 1-5
[1] Woe to the pastors, that destroy and tear the sheep of my pasture, saith the Lord. [2] Therefore thus saith the Lord the God of Israel to the pastors that feed my people: You have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold I will visit upon you for the evil of your doings, saith the Lord. [3] And I will gather together the remnant of my flock, out of all the lands into which I have cast them out: and I will make them return to their own fields, and they shall increase and be multiplied. [4] And I will set up pastors over them, and they shall feed them: they shall fear no more, and they shall not be dismayed: and none shall be wanting of their number, saith the Lord. [5] Behold the days come, saith the Lord, and I will raise up to David a just branch: and a king shall reign, and shall be wise, and shall execute judgement and justice in the earth.
Catherine is being mean again. Hope they don’t throw her out of the Legion.
I do not know the poster Mrs. A-but I imagine that she is just Catherine’s latest victim in her total rejection of the 8th commandment. You are not alone, Mrs. A. There have been many who quit posting because of her.
The Word of God must never be used as a weapon against other men of God. God’s Word is like a sword but it must never be turned upon a fellow brother or sister. The Word is a rock, but it must never be used to stone someone who has failed. The Word is also a hammer, but it is not intended to serve as a tool to crucify believers on your cross of doctrinal opinions. The Word is water that is intended to refresh, but it should never be the weapon used to drown out the voice of someone you disagree with. The Word is a fire that God Himself uses to purge iniquity from a person, but it is not intended to be used by a fire-handling Christian who wants to burn someone’s hide by quoting verses in hate and bitterness (see 1 John 4:20-21, 1 Cor. 13:1-2 and Mark 11:25-26).
Perry Stone
“The Word is water that is intended to refresh, but it should never be the weapon used to drown out the voice of someone you disagree with.” = Please let Our Lord’s words lovingly refresh your memory.
The Gospel according to St. Matthew 23: These things you ought to have done, and not to leave those undone. [24] Blind guides, who strain out a gnat, and swallow a camel. [25] Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you make clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but within you are full of rapine and uncleanness.
[26] Thou blind Pharisee, first make clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, that the outside may become clean. [27] Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you are like to whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear to men beautiful, but within are full of dead men’ s bones, and of all filthiness. [28] So you also outwardly indeed appear to men just; but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. [29] Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; that build the sepulchres of the prophets, and adorn the monuments of the just, [30] And say: If we had been in the days of our Fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Douay-Rheims Bible
Practice what you preach, Anonymous. “…The Word is also a hammer, but it is not intended to serve as a tool to crucify believers on your cross of doctrinal opinions. The Word is water that is intended to refresh, but it should never be the weapon used to drown out the voice of someone you disagree with.”
Have some honest dialogue instead of misusing or twisting the Word to silence opponents you cannot combat for lack of tools and Truth. That is where your anger lies which is precisely why I’d admonish you all to seek out a solid priest to discern the purity of your intentions. If, in fact, you have any Church affiliation at all…. or a spiritual adviser.
As for the Legion, it needs good fighters. Or do you think Our Lord was weak on His way of the Cross? Don’t be fooled by the simpering, feminized images of Christ. And don’t be fooled by a weak portrayal of a fainting Virgin, for Our Lady is nothing but strength and virtue. Not a wilting flower, cowering in the face of the ultimate cruelty.
And of course you do not know Mrs A, Anonymous, you do not even know your own name or Faith or history. And you seemingly have no care to know. So be gone then. Your purpose here is only to quote scripture and the CCC like Satan in an attempt to stifle understanding and growth in the Faith.
Mrs A wow …..I’m sorry for all the petty replies you are receiving. You are entitled to your opinion and I wish Catherine would of just been humble enough to ask you why you felt that way and not react so defensive.by calling you Kanonymous? (bet you don’t know what she meant by that, its a long story) Not that again Catherine…really…you think everyone that does not agree with you is k. Wow…..as much as I had my disagreements with k, I now feel sorry for her because you are walking spiritual dangerous ground, you may be bearing false witness and frankly this Mrs. A sounded like she was just stating her point of view and did not deserve your attacking comments.
You ladies are super petty. I wonder if MaryAnn Leanard would sympathize with Mrs. A. Just because you do not like what she said, you are already assuming she is someone who may not be faithful? Come on, it just shows your prejudices. Why can you be welcoming and ask her kindly what she meant? Why attack her person!
Steve Phoenix, Thank you for your post!
Mrs A your comment ” Her advice to Abeca on another thread convinced me of the hypocrisy that people of like mind to hers,”
What did you mean by that? When did she address me? I must have missed that one? I’m puzzled? Well its OK, don’t reply, i don’t want to know, I don’t want to get caught up in something that seems like there is no solution. Mrs. A have your eye’s fixed on our beloved Jesus. Also I am sorry that you felt unwelcome, can you please return, we didn’t get to know you and it would be nice to have more share their faith here especially if their goal is sanctifying grace. That is if that is your sentiments. : )
“Gimmicks” may superficially attract some people, especially the young, who lack experience— but when they look deeper, as time goes by, and find nothing– they leave.”
Sad, but true, Linda Marie. Thank you for posting. And God bless you in your faithfulness.
Anonymous: I would like you to share with us all of the posters you know of that have stopped posting here because of Catherine. I take your comments to mean that these posters, the many that have left, have confided in you that Catherine was the reason they stopped posting? Crickets? I thought not. People stop posting for MANY reasons. Show us proof of these posters since you always demand references from other posters. You always demand proof. Now I want you to prove even 1 poster who confided in you that they stopped posting because of Catherine. Don’t say Mrs A because she has said she was out of here a number of times only to be right back on here spewing her self-righteousness, condemnations, and judgements on other posters. She IS NOT a victim as you claim! She, with her full will. comes back on here. If she feels like a victim, then maybe she should just do the obvious and not come in here, eh? Mrs A does have every right to say what she has to say here, and I hope she does, but she is NO victim. You can only be a victim here if you choose to.
Angelo.
So, anonymous, all of these posters that you listed here have shared personally through some form of communication that they left because of Catherine? Puhleeeeaze! I don’t believe you for a minute. It is your supposition that they left because of Catherine!!! You have no proof! Come on, Annonymous! Really?
Mark from Pa
Anonymous, I was pretty tough on both Angelo and Mark from PA as well. By blaming Catherine for the two of them apparently no longer posting, it appears to me as if you may have taken up an offense which is not yours to bear.
Catherine is the assigned target to be silenced, Tracy. The reality of you being a contributor in any way makes no difference to the situation.
To continue further with any logic will automatically produce either a “Wow” “How petty” ‘I’m puzzled?” “I’m confused” or one of my personal favorites “But *I’m* faithful!”
I’d venture that nobody on CCD would have the chutzpah to say as much to Christ should they die tonight, but it flows here like spiced mead.
So you want me to stop posting? OK bully you win.
anonymous don’t listen, they are just psst off because you defended the documents of V2. Like you said they probably did not take the time to read them in their entirety. I don’t know if you are that same anonymous or another but it was noble. Also that anonymous asked for prove if they saw that V2 had changed any dogma, and they can not answer because they know that it has not changed any dogma. If pre-V2 was better, then why did they start V2? It was the fruit of pre-V2 disobedience that created it and it was those very disobedient ones who did not follow it to the way it was meant it to be. But today we see the faithful in the OF of mass and even in the EF, correct little by little that problem, even loyal priests and we have top notch evangelical Catholics who are traditional and loyal. Many wonderful converts have come from the ones who remained obedient to the real goal of V2, which was to evangelize and I feel that more and more Catholics are getting to know their faith because it takes one by one to reach one person at a time! The rest is in our Lord hands. We trust in Him to correct the errors in which mankind has gotten for itself.
Abeca, thank you. You are a true daughter of Mother Church.
Again the blindness that casts the pe-VII Church to the wind as if nothing of import or the charity of teaching the Faith whole and entire didn’t occur until after Vatican II. The woeful lack of scholarly exploration – even the basic reading of documents – is passed off as being …a true daughter of Mother Church. (What is written above speaks as if Mother Church were something other than holy prior to the 60s.)
Saints preserve us. That is those Saints who the Church accumulated despite what was seemingly so bad prior to VII.
The reality is that VII didn’t change dogma. That is the whole point. It is the pretense that dogma has changed, that is heresy is no longer heresy etc, or the interpretation that the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is now some pilgrim progressing toward Truth that is the problem.
Bleeped off doesn’t begin to describe it. Lamenting over the woeful dumbing down of not only America, but a tremendous amount of so called Faithful is the problem. And that can hardly be relegated to an individual being ticked off.
Longing for the return of scholarly integrity to the halls of Holy Mother Church!
Anonymous, I wish you would use an easier name to recognize. Which anonymous are we talking to? Please keep posting. We’re all of us sinners and you have things to say and share that no one else can because yours is a unique voice. God bless!
God bless you Dana you are a real Catholic Christian. I prayed for you this week and will continue. I love you in Jesus my sister in Christ!
= )
Thank you Anonymous I try…as you can tell I am not perfect. please keep me in your prayers. I am not perfect and I have my flaws and I look to Jesus to help me. May the blood of Jesus help all Catholic Christian’s unite and destroy the lies of the enemy. His will be done! Amen….
Ann Malley, do you realize that you are calumnizing?
The Catholic Church was founded by the Apostles of Jesus Christ.
You seem to have some kind of idea that it was a different Church.
The pre-V2 Church is the same Church as is now. And as it was in the year 34 AD.
Who told you it was a different Church?
max
and Abeca Christian cut her posts a lot after Catherine burned her, who had come to her defense over and over.
So now that you really put Catherine on the spot and caused her to have to suffer something she did not have to suffer (truly sorry, Catherine) maybe you can go to Mass or pray or rosary or something and offer prayers for her and all those that she has hurt.
Now i really am leaving. God bless all of you and may God lead you to all Truth.)
There are some really good Catholics who post here but they get drowned out by the egomaniacs.
“So now that you really put Catherine on the spot and caused her to have to suffer something she did not have to suffer (truly sorry, Catherine) maybe you can go to Mass or pray or rosary or something and offer prayers for her and all those that she has hurt.” = The fact that you are even talking about me vs. focusing on the topic of the great sufferings from the diabolical attack on the Mystical Body of Christ due to years of ongoing disobedience is also revealing.
k- anonymous, You are still up to your old tricks and wisely Ann Malley and RR charitably invited you to expose your many different personas of deceitful practice on this faithful website. And guess what? You delivered.
Thank you for caring about the truth Ann Malley and RR!
‘With the Pope Against Homoheresy. – A Major Article by Father Dariusz Oko
A Global Phenomenon = Even on CCD
“In order for such evil to be concealed and tolerated, it is necessary that the right people hold key positions, and that not only a homolobby, but a homoclique or a homomafia is created. Indeed, that is what the present Polish Minister of Justice, Jarosław Gowin, called that group when referring to the scandal of homosexual abuses perpetrated by priests in the Diocese of Płock, the offences of molestation against young people and seminarians, and the covering up of such facts. He said that when he intervened in the Church in the case of Archbishop Paetz, he had the impression he was dealing with a mafia.
continued from July 29, 2014 at 1:01pm
Once again….
A Global Phenomenon = Even on CCD
‘With the Pope Against Homoheresy’ – A Major Article by Father Dariusz Oko
“In order for such evil to be concealed and tolerated, it is necessary that the right people hold key positions, and that not only a homolobby, but a homoclique or a homomafia is created. Indeed, that is what the present Polish Minister of Justice, Jarosław Gowin, called that group when referring to the scandal of homosexual abuses perpetrated by priests in the Diocese of Płock, the offences of molestation against young people and seminarians, and the covering up of such facts. He said that when he intervened in the Church in the case of Archbishop Paetz, he had the impression he was dealing with a mafia, brutally negating even the most obvious principles and facts.[8]”
continued
continued fromJuly 29, 2014 at 1:17pm
‘ With the Pope Against Homoheresy ‘ A Major Article by Father Dariusz Oko
“On the one hand, they administer the sacraments, celebrate the Holy Mass every day, deal with the holiest of holy objects; and on the other hand they keep doing the exact opposite, that which is particularly deplorable. This way they “become immune” to that which is higher, that which is holy, their moral life yields to atrophy, going steadily downhill towards the fall. The more of that which is higher dies in them, the more room there is for that which is lower – the desire for material, sensual things – money, power, career, lust and sex. They can hardly be helped, since the highest means of formation, faith and grace have failed. They know well, however, that they may be exposed and embarrassed, so they shield one another by offering mutual support. They build informal relationships reminding of a clique or even mafia, aim at holding particularly those positions which offer power and money. When they achieve a decision-making position, they try to promote and advance mostly those whose nature is similar to theirs, or at least who are known to be too weak to oppose them.
continued…….
continued…from July 29, 2014 at 1:29pm
‘ With the Pope Against Homoheresy’ – A Major Article by Father Dariusz Oko
“This way, leading positions in the Church may be held by people suffering from deep internal wounds, hardly displaying the spiritual level expected of their office; people who have given themselves away to hypocrisy and are especially prone to blackmailing by the enemies of Christianity. People who never “speak from the heart”, never revealing it for fear of being brought to shame. Instead, they repeat what they have learned by heart, copy that which has been said by others. Often an atmosphere of hypocrisy and lifelessness can be sensed around them. Pharisaism in its pure form[12]. Even if they do not actively practice homosexuality, as a rule they try to shield and promote even those who do, with much solidarity, ready to “dig in their heels” together with them”.
continued
continued….from July 29, 2014 at 1:35pm
‘With the Pope Against Homoheresy’ – A Major Article by Father Dariusz Oko
“This way they prefer their own well-being to the well- being of the community, according to the rule which says: “Let the Church be disgraced, ridiculed and humiliated, as long as myself and “mine” are well-set for life, as long as there is always enough to satisfy us”. “Omertà” in its pure form. This way, however, they may actually achieve a dominating position in many areas of church hierarchy, become a “backroom elite” which actually has tremendous power in deciding about important nominations and the whole life of the Church. Indeed, they may even prove to be too powerful for honest, well-meaning bishops.”[13]
If individuals take a break from posting it can be to either lick their wounds, reconsider what they’ve been writing, or perhaps to get themselves in check to reset after going off track. It can also be because a person is busy. People have lives and families.
This particular silence speaks volumes, however, and not about Catherine who is doing nothing more than those people who are now defending for their supposedly victim-driven silence. That is Catherine was addressing that which cried out for addressing.
Flipping and flopping in loyalties or POV is no sign of fidelity or holiness, Anonymous. This is not high school. No wonder you are so confused.
Thank you, too, Catherine. God bless.
Catherine, I do not post here very often and you are the reason.
Every time I would post you would answer saying a bunch of lies about me, just like you are doing now.
So to be clear, while I have sometimes posted anonymously, I have never posted under max, abeca christian, Mark from Pa or Angelo.
I am not gay. I am not a homo-heretic. I support traditional marriage, traditional morality, unconditional pro-life. I have never voted for a pro-choice politician and I never will. I do not support molesters nor the covering up of it.
I know our history and so do you and you know why you do it and so do I and we don’t need to air our dirty laundry again.
It is better for your soul if I do not post.
Catherine, and as often as you have done it to me it never hurts any less.
RR says:
July 30, 2014 at 11:01 am
Funny how Anonymous supposedly checks out of CalCath and k resurfaces? HHMMM!
Yes, RR you are on the ball. It takes an honest person and a balanced intellect to notice the obvious. God bless you!
With regard to your attack on Steve Phoenix, Abeca, look in a mirror and do some serious self examination. You are way out of line.
Thank you again, Steve Phoenix, for trying.
Thank you, RR, for pointing out Anonymous’s unending lack of credibility save for his/her own anonymous praise-me, poor-me victim schtick. And thank you too for calling out those who post as if they are being ‘attacked’ all-the-while protesting and praising their own ultimate, praiseworthy fidelity while they blindly attack that which is in union with the actual Faith. They know not of what spirit they are.
I cannot imagine either that these folks are anything more than agitators (or bitter over their own compromise) and not the doe-eyed innocents they like to pretend they are. Childish, not child like. The former renders one an easy target of manipulation by those wolves …. in the pew next to one or misleading the flock. You can see it here live on CCD with increasing regularity.
God bless!
Wow, it really sounds like someone named Anonymous has occult preternatural knowledge of all the wounded egos (Mark from PA; Max; untold others– isnt that interesting who he names and knows) who have stopped posting because of mean, mean Catherine. And then there is that Ann Malley, oh my!. Lions, and tigers, and bears!
Yes, Catherine, I did not think that Mrs. A, or Charles A., from the vituperativeness of her/their posts (“a website of homosexuals and schismatics”) bakes cookies at home (unless they are laced with hemlock–for us–and you better watch out, too, YFC); but we do know Cal Catholic has become a topic at many chancery offices and in many parish offices. We know Cal Catholic had a big impact on various Catholic organizations in shedding light on hidden matters. “Sunlight is the best disinfectant.” (Judge Brandeis).
As for the latest Anonymous thug, I cannot help but notice how much of a misogynistic bully he is, first against the dreaded Ann Malley, and now on to target #2, Catherine. I dont know which he needs in greater measure, prayer or cognitive therapy.
Steve I am wondering why you felt the need to get involved with this petty talk? I feel that many here have narcissistic behavior, as if this website is only for your kin. Come on we have always had visiting commentators. They come and go, they are not all K anonymous as Catherine likes us to believe. The enemy is loving this division, its the fruit of lack of unity.
Anonymous just for the record Catherine never burned me, I am no fan of hers. My love is only for Jesus and His mum. I could care less what she says or does. I feel that she is paranoid, she thinks everyone new is K in disguise and I find that disturbing. I can not follow the advice that she gives because as much as she may state many beautiful facts about our faith, she also has shown some troubling point of view that I feel needs some correction but I don’t think it will happen here. She is not humble enough to accept the loyalty that comes with lay faithful from within Rome. Many here are sheltered, they all think that the church has all gotten bad when in reality they are just attracted to magnified slander or even troubles that the church faces, as ammunition to fulfill their anger against the V2. Its disturbing, I was once blind and now I see, it is true what many have tried to warn me about those who hate V2, they are guilty of sins so deep because of their slander and gossip as if the whole church was rotten. They seem hopeless.
Thank you again, Steve Phoenix, for your use of humor. Sadly, for those who elevate themselves by way of ego to appear more faithful and pure or even false humility by way of self definition, the humor seems to do little more than spur continued self obsession with perceived holiness and fidelity. As if unity was manufactured by folks just saying they’d get along and smiling at each other.
Too many forget – or willfully ignore – the reality that Our Lord Jesus prayed to God the Father for unity. That implies that it is a GIFT from God. Jesus didn’t look to the Apostles and say just don’t argue about the fullness of Truth I’ve given you. He knew they’d disagree at some point thanks to human nature and the actions of the one sowing tares among the wheat. That is why Our Lord prayed to the Father for Faith – the sharing of which (whole and entire) is the only true unity. Our Lord told the Apostles to go out and baptize all nations. And St. Paul warned us against those preaching a different Gospel and also gave instruction with regard to dealing with those in heresy.
cont:
Changing the definition of heresy doesn’t mean we can now disregard St. Paul. Sorry. For in doing so we run the risk of watering down the fullness of what we have been given by God, namely the Faith which is Unity itself. I am so heartened to know that there are faithful Catholics who understand this necessary trust in God, instead of those who’d prefer to just jump off the mountain ‘trusting’ that Our Lord won’t let them get hurt at the behest of the ambiguous.
But you get that, Steve Phoenix, along with many others here who are falsely accused of – oh my goodness, we’re not in Kansas anymore – slander and gossip. Thank God you’re not one of those who continues to bump into the obvious wall only to repeat, but there’s no wall there. I don’t get it? I don’t understand. Why are others not doing the same thing? Blind Faith in Our Lord doesn’t mean gouging one’s eyes and brain out as a sign of fidelity. Or limiting one’s dialogue to the approved narrative which is more Communist than Catholic. So yes, they do appear hopeless as they will never take the time to learn, dialogue, and grow but instead opt to keep repeating the same pull-string responses that have been programmed in while flipping and flopping positions as this ‘new unity’ requires.
I am very familiar with the fact that this website has become a topic at various chancery offices and parish administrations; so it is always fair to question the fiercity of animus that is directed specifically at some people. Ann Malley has increasingly become targeted, in my view, because her views are a threat to the “establishment Catholics”.
I am very familiar with the effort to stigmatize, ostracize, and demonize, and what people do here is express their views, hopefully factually based, and we proceed. I will not stand by while some are demonized, of course so that we do not discuss the facts.
As for “petty talk”, silence when people are being called “homosexuals and schismatics” is not honorable, but scandalous.
Funny how Anonymous supposedly checks out of CalCath and k resurfaces? HHMMM!
Steve Phoenix, Ann Malley’s views are not a threat to establishment Catholics, they are a threat to her eternal life. I guess charity is in the eye of the beholder.
Steve Phoenix,
You’re entire post is spot on. AND “Ann Malley has increasingly become targeted, in my view, because her views are a threat to the “establishment Catholics”. Ann Malley beautifully reminded us that “Too many forget – or willfully ignore – the reality that Our Lord Jesus prayed to God the Father for unity. That implies that it is a GIFT from God.”
Like you just did Steve Phoenix .. our Dana also wrote a very charitable and beautiful post below thanking Ann Malley. Again..Thank you too Steve Phoenix.
Catherine, Christian unity can only occur in the Catholic Church united to the Pope. The Church cannot change it’s doctrine to become more acceptable to those who disagree with it. Why is there not unity? God the Father would not deny His Son his prayer. The reason for disunity is one. Christians will not submit to the Pope. People who pray for unity must be willing to accept the whole of Christ’s teaching, and His entire Will.
God bless you all, Catherine, Steve Phoenix, Dana and everyone, even those Anonymous and the vacillating crew who seek to hide the Truth. By doing so, and so adamantly, you do nothing but wake people up.
So thank you for showing the error that wounds Holy Mother Church. Exposing a wound is step one to healing it.
God bless and uphold the Faith!
Steve P Lets be honest here but how about the petty talk about bashing the OF mass, stating that the EF is the mass of all times. All this is a sin because both mass are valid when they are followed correctly by the GIRM. Lets not be double standard, there is division here because some refuse to understand the validity in the OF mass.
Continued Steve P: Look I attend the Tridentine Mass, I am not against you nor those who choose the OF mass but throughout the years, I have seen so much bashing about this mass or that mass is better from both sides and it is hurtful for those like myself who know that Jesus is in both forms of Mass. If Jesus is there gentle and meek in both masses, then who am I to judge. Plus those who may protest what Ann says it is because they are faithful to the Magesteriom and it is understandable that the division that some bring here will be offensive to those of us who are in union with Rome. Dialogue well without throwing under the buss those of us who have a zeal to be loyal to Christ in His church, in union with Rome. Well I have said my peace, I don’t want to argue with you about this. Its not productive to my spiritual growth, you have made up your mind on things and it will be only our Lord to show us the way. Peace in Christ.
Yes, being honest would be refreshing! So instead of ascribing disloyalty to some, RR included, for she was told she’d been ‘had’ and that she needed talking to by other supposedly *faithful* converts, let’s look at what loyalty to the magisterium actually is. Nobody is asking anybody to question or deny Our Lord in the mass, but rather to look what one is actually adhering to.
Looking at our own Catholic history will go far in answering this perpetual *why* *I don’t understand* with regard to the fallout and crisis all around. How could Catholics think and behave the way they do? (These are good questions, but get one no where unless one actually wants to know the answers.) Well, it’s not just because of targeted so-called dissenters or because of gossip or individuals acting alone. It could, however, be the result of the actions of the Church in the past that have opened the door, albeit unwittingly, to such misinterpretation.
Pope Saint Pius X instituted the Oath Against Modernism that was mandatory for all clergy, pastors, confessors, preachers, religious superiors, and professors in philosophical-theological seminaries. He did this specifically to stop the progressive push to evolve doctrine. That’s why within the oath (something retained by the FSSP) it says in part, “… I entirely reject the heretical’ misrepresentation that dogmas evolve and change from one meaning to another different from the one which the Church held previously.”
That is the Oath Against Modernism, not something made up by a so-called dissenter or an ‘unfaithful’. Pope Paul the VI removed the requirement of taking said oath in ’67. Not being an ignorant man, he must have done as much for a reason. And yet the reality that the FSSP take this oath is very telling as is the reality that the majority of those formerly required to do so are not, that goes a long way to answer the WHY things seem so out of control. (That means teachers, priests, religious, theologians etc are free to advance theory surrounding the interpretation of Church teaching… that’s why we have so much schlock out there giving folks the wrong idea of what Catholic is. Combine that with the removal of the Index of Forbidden Books and seeking Imprimatur as – highly recommended – instead of strictly necessary and there you go.)
In other words, if one is not required to limited one’s ‘interpretation’ to what the Church has always taught, interpretation becomes highly varied and often seeks to justify many things that the Church previously condemned. This is why Pope Benedict had to come out and insist that the VII needed to be viewed through the hermeneutic of continuity, that is union with what the Church has always taught. He wouldn’t have had to do this if the Oath Against Modernism was being upheld or if those in teaching/clerical/leadership positions were not freely interpreting matters on their own, independent of what the Church has always taught.
Folks might find that unacceptable to digest for their own spiritual growth. But it would be true spiritual growth in outreach to fellow Catholics who love Holy Mother Church to at least look at reasons behind why some feel as they do instead of brushing folks off as being against the Church. That in itself is highly unChristian and cruel. But zeal without understanding can lead to many mistakes.
So instead of hiding from history, learn it! Embrace it. That is not to condemn the Church or the magisterium, but rather to become a more effective evangelist when speaking to all souls, not just those who haven’t read or don’t want to. Learn the history and we can grow without blindly repeating the same errors or, worse, allowing error to continue unchecked because we’re too frightened to take any responsibility for it.
That said, it is very narrow to think that those who adhere to the TLM do not love Jesus in the Novus Ordo. If we did not love Our Lord in the Novus Ordo then we wouldn’t give a hoot about it’s continuing. In reality, I pray for Our Lord to be comforted in the Novus Ordo. Not as much as I should, but I do. Others do as well. So, please, do not pretend ownership to caring while others only have preference. That in itself is not zeal, but a blind lack of charity and throwing others who love Our Lord dearly under the bus. Something I won’t do – not even to you Abeca.
Nancy, Christian unity already exists in the Catholic Church under the banner of the Faith, whole and entire, that has been received from Christ Jesus. A deposit of Faith safeguarded by the Vicar of Christ. You write:
“…The Church cannot change it’s doctrine to become more acceptable to those who disagree with it.”
Precisely so, Nancy. That is why this progression of teaching has to be looked at for what it is – a result of the ‘open’ doors of VII with regard to ‘new’ interpretation. It is a confusion of that which was always clear, at lest on paper, prior to VII that keeps many Traditional Catholic groups from regularization with Rome. For while the FSSP does take the Oath Against Modernism (Praise God!) they are bound (I believe) not to speak out against the inherent ambiguity of VII documents which allowed for new interpretation of Church teaching in the first place. Follow that up with a suppression of the Oath Against Modernism in ’67 and what do you have? Well, nothing but the go ahead to reinterpret Church doctrine to mean other things – other phenomenon that aren’t quite understood yet. So who precisely is changing doctrine? Those who insist that it cannot change from what it was or those who ‘reinterpret’ it with the permission of self-proclaimed non-binding proclamations of VII?
That would be like accusing those who reject the legitimacy of eating the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden as being unfaithful because Catholics are now allowed to call fruit a vegetable.
to nancy continued:
That would be like accusing those who reject the legitimacy of eating the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden as being unfaithful because Catholics are now allowed to call fruit a vegetable. And if you do not agree that fruit can now be called a vegetable you are in error. I understand the attempt is to encourage more folks to enter the Church, but the result has been many leaving the Church because everyone really knows that fruit is fruit and a vegetable is, well, a vegetable. And if the Church doesn’t reign in interpretation, well, why should individuals?
So while you seem to argue that the Church cannot change doctrine to accommodate Traditional Catholics, what doctrine, precisely would that be? Because all that Traditional Catholics hold to is that which the Church has always taught prior to VII.
Not sure if you can see the paradox there, but it’s there. That’s why we have confusion. A increased lack of unity. And confusion as to what the Church actually teaches. Not because God the Father didn’t answer Our Lord’s prayer, but rather because weak men reject the fullness of Faith and seek to change it to their own likening, like transforming forbidden fruit into vegetables.
First, it is good to get back to the issues that matter, and away from the l misogynist bullying anonymous attacks and name-calling (“schismatics”; “heretics”, [presumably incontinent] “homosexuals”) Ann Malley, nor Dana, nor RR nor Catherine nor I have ever used that language; but it is an effort to portray persons with serious questions about tradition and the TLM as hostile and divisive. It is often very effective. That whole matter [of the attacks] was contrived, in my view, to get away from the issue.
But Abeca writes, “Lets be honest here but how about the petty talk about ‘bashing’ the OF mass, stating that the EF is the mass of all times. All this is a sin..” [In other words, “Stop the bashing!”–like, “Have you stopped beating your wife?”] This also is a contrived approach: just as the terms “OF” and “EF” were artificially created in 2008 to try to hide the improper beginnings of the Novus Ordo, it tries to shut off honest discussion, fact development and thought.
The fact is, the artifically-termed phrase “Extraordinary Form” (this dating only from 2008), for the traditional Latin Mass, this Mass was in fact called “the Mass of All Time” (based on S Pius V’s text of a Mass “in perpetuity” cf. Quo Primum, never to be altered) as a universal belief up to 1968-1969.
Monsgr. Klaus Gamber, a peritus at the Council, observes that the instruction in SC n. 25 “The liturgical books are to be revised as soon as possible.” had already been done during the time of the Council, expressing the wish of the Council Fathers in the Missale Romanum of 1965, which essentially leaves the Mass of all time unchanged: otherwise, he says, why would they have ordered the printing of tens of thousands of books in 1965 for a Missal that would be dumped (as it was) 3 years later with the mysterious Bugnini-Weakland creation of the N.O. “New Mass”?
Remember, Gamber was no sedesvacantist, but a liturgist praised by C. Ratzinger/PBXVI as “a true liturgical prophet”; he was also the one who “argued” (a sin, I guess) that Paul VI’s change of the words of institution (“for you and for all”) was theologically a break with the past and possibly invalid. Yes, invalid. It took 4 decades to fix it, but his “arguing” finally got this issue corrected.
Now, in fact, I believe that a reverently recited N.O. Mass celebrated by a priest who does so with the intention of what the Church intends is anything but invalid. But let’s be honest, the New Order would have no meaning at all except that the source of which it derives is the ancient TLM.
[Now people in Rio LInda take that to mean that it is being said “the NO has no meaning at all”: No: it has meaning, but it is a deliberate break with the past, with a changed meaning, and it defects from a perfect sacrifice.] Again, renowned V2 expert Fr. Joseph Gelineau, “The Roman Rite no longer exists as we know it: The Roman Rite has been destroyed!” There was a deliberate break with what we believed: so if you have a changed lex orandi, there is a changed lex credendi.
Now some wags have tried to say “Christ didnt use Latin in the Upper Room.” Uhmm, yah, riiighhhht. So: The liturgy that most uses Jesus’ original language, the uniate Maronite (Antiochene) Catholic Rite, employs Aramaic in the Canon of the Mass — so Jesus’ own language, right?—but note this: the Maronite Canon’s form is almost indistinguishable from the form and structure of the Roman Canon of the TLM. St Maron (d. 410) preserved the rite which he had received from the Upper Room—and, let me repeat, it is almost indistinguishable from the TLM. The Maronite Rite also specifically uses the phrase “unbloody sacrifice” and also language of oblation, language which was purged by Bugnini in Pope Paul’s New Mass, replacing it with Jewish berakoth (blessing) prayers (“Blessed are you, Lord God..”)
Or, lastly, GIRM, the famed general instruction, has been revised now at least 4x’s: the original version (1969) called the Mass, for the first time ever: “The Lord’s Supper, or Mass, is the sacred meeting or congregation of the people of God assembled, the priest presiding, to celebrate the memorial of the Lord.” This is completely in contradiction to the declarations of Trent AND V2, whi mentions specifically that “the dogmatic principles laid down by Trent remaining intact” of the Catholic Mass.
This language occasioned the Ottaviani intervention, the substance of which proved prophetic regarding the deleterious effect on the Catholic Church of the N.O. of the Mass. As a result, GIRM has been anything but a reliable compass of Catholic belief on the Mass. Even the most recent revision (2012) contains language over and over again, dozens of times, in the subjunctive (“is recommended”; “may”; “should”; “celebrant is permitted to adapt…”) that permits many trap doors for the revolutionary-type to exploit to the disadvantage of the Catholic people.
Just for the record, too: I regularly attend a N.O. Mass, although it is not usually my preference. Just as Ottaviani, and for that matter, Abp. Lefebvre observed, a reverent priest reciting the Mass in a reverent manner with an intention as the Church intends will effect grace on the participants in the N.O. However, the opportunity for scandalous behavior and instruction (Did you know that Catholic belief means we must ‘save the whales’?) by a deviant celebrant. That is not “bashing” but fact.
I (nor any other TLM-oriented person) do not want to “suppress the N.O.” (as if it were possible for me to do so): but I do want people to know the truth, and read up on it themselves. There is something else “out there” that does not depend on the holiness of the priest to effect grace; so when you are ready, check it out.
Steve with all the crises we are having to endure this lifetime, you choose to be in the same mud puddle with Ann and Catherine, I don’t care to waste precious time defending my self but when you, Anne and Catherine (both ladies may be the same person) decide to give your full name, address, email and phone number, I will do the same!
Grow up! Your looking foolish!
RR how come you decided to resurface? I read their daily articles and on the left side of my computer, we (the wife and I, borrow our neighbor’s computer) sometimes curiosity nag’s at me and I click on the name and see what all the fuss is. You ladies are often tempted to be suspicious of others. Not a good impression for what is suppose to be a Catholic website.
correction not my computer borrowed.
God bless you again and again, Steve Phoenix. But methinks He already has and continues to do so. Well said and thank you!
Charles and Mrs A: With all the crises we’re in at present, one would think every Catholic would want to get to the root of the issues in order to solve them with finality. Why you do not is very odd. Why you would want to silence those asking the hard questions instead of honestly fielding said questions is also telling. (Cutting the top off of a weed doesn’t get rid of the weed. You speak of foolishness and yet you seem incapable of grasping that concept or even entertaining it. Not the thought process of one who actually wants to eliminate the weeds.)
I notice also that you seem to surface whenever Abeca Christian attempts to take on or silence any talk that addresses the superior aspects of the TLM, anything with regard to the SSPX and what they *actually* believe, or anything remotely close to examining VII in an authentic manner. Why is that? I would say I wonder, but I don’t anymore as you have been obligingly transparent.
Why is it so odd that others you defend as holy are allowed to have their doubts and recriminations about certain topics and posters while others, in your estimation, only sin when they express themselves? Is it bias? Is it perhaps another poster seeking to gain supporters to prop up the ‘let’s just not talk about the real problem’ angle?
It doesn’t really matter, especially in light of Catherine and Steve Phoenix’s awesome posts. I am impressed beyond words and so very grateful for the lessons of TRUTH they speak… and document. That is the credibility our Holy Mother Church needs to be strong, gain converts, and to gird the Faithful for the fight that is everywhere against the Truth.
Steve it is a waste to have dialogue with you sir because you give a blind eye where you see fit. You are not completely honest.
Notice what you want Ann Malley, its just your suspicions that hold no water, its all irrelevant on what you say. Are you jealous or envious? Of what? I don’t know, but I notice some spiritual warfare coming from you. You attack Charles A, but I ask the same question about you, how come every comment I now make you tend to magically appear as you reply to someone else. As you watch me, you don’t think those of like mind with me are watching too.
Its nothing new, you are always suspicious suspicious. Charles thinks that you are Catherine too. (Charles no she and Catherine are not the same person, so don’t fall in the same spiritual predicament that Ann has gotten herself in) Of course Steve and some others will agree with you and you agree with them. That is how this website works! There is always that division! Be proud of yourself, this is your fruit. Always suspicious….must be a lonely place for you. Again as time repeats itself, have a go at it and try to butcher me with more assumptions but let it be known, I will not reply to your silly notions.
k, I can certainly understand why you are not fond of my challenging your previous posts. Please read you own posts below. You cannot deny writing those ambiguous sounding posts where on one hand you say you accept all Church teaching and then write what you have. Also, Here are the names of the two priests who stood up in defense of Church teaching regarding homosexuality and you did not worry about undermining their good reputations. Father Marcel Guarnizo and Father Michael Rodriquez from El Paso, Texas. Do you STILL deny making unflattering comments about those two faithful priests?
Next…You defended Father Zampelli , the gay activist priest and worried about calumny against him but you certainly did not worry about calumny against Father Guarnizo and Father Michael Rodriguez?. Anyone who reads the entire thread of posts on CCD’s article ‘Will he present Church Teaching’ will see how you were an ambiguous sounding excuse making apologist for Father Zampelli’s homosexual activism. I copied some of your very ambiguous and troubling posts and my responses to you at that time. Do you deny these posts too?
continued
continued for k from July 30, 2014 at 10:29 post
k, it was also a big red flag when you wrote the following post about CCD.
The CCD Article Title was “Suffering and inequity”
Posted Wednesday, February 09, 2011 7:11 PM By k
“So CCD does not have permission from the local ordinary to use the name Catholic? I couldn’t find permission from the ordinary on RealCatholicTV either. ”
No more games k. Multi-million dollar payouts for the horrific sex abuse scandals, molesters shuffled from diocese to diocese, good priests silenced or ostracized, liturgical abuse, error being taught, terrible attendance at Mass, terrible lack of catechesis, but you were more concerned with silencing CCD and Michael Voris and checking to see if CCD had permission from the local ordinary to use the name Catholic. CCD has been a Godsend in order to expose the corruption within. Should the serially raided henhouse first worry about seeking permission from the raiding wolf in order to guard it’s own henhouse contents?
continued
continued for k from July 30, 2014 at 10:39 am post
k, The CCD Article Title was ‘Will he present Church teaching?’
‘Gay-friendly’ priest on ecumenical panel discussing homosexuality
Posted Wednesday, February 09, 2011 1:27 PM By k
Grisha and Dan, I am uncomfortable with the reasons that were given by Archbishop Chaput and the pastor of the school where those children attended. Father Bill Breslin: “There are so many schools in Boulder that see the meaning of sexuality in an entirely different way than the Catholic Church. Why not send their child there?” Archbishop Chaput: “People who have an understanding of marriage and family life sharply different from Catholic belief are often people of sincerity and good will. They have other, excellent options for education and should see in them the better course for their children.” The children are deprived of Catholic Truth because the teachers at the school would be uncomfortable teaching something that might make the kids think their parents were bad. It would cause the children stress. One of the biggest issues that Adult Children of “Whatever Disorder” have to deal with is that they don’t know what normal is. And these people have told those kids that it would be too stressful for them to find out. I’m sure that teachers and other parents might have been uncomfortable with the questions their kids would ask. I’ve always told my son the truth-“Those people are committing grave sin. We need to pray for them.”
My response to your flip flop ambiguity at that time….
continued…………..
continued for k from July 30, 2014 at 10:50 am
CCD article ‘Will he present Church teaching?’
Posted Wednesday, February 09, 2011 6:34 PM By The Truth Hurts
“k, Something is sure pretty fishy for someone who says that Catholics are so disliked where you live. Maybe they also misinterpret you as an apologists for homosexuality instead of a clarifier of Church Teaching? So k, are you saying that Archbishop Chaput should not have done what he did?”
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continued for k from July 30, 2014 at 11:00 post
The CCD Article was ‘Will he present Church Teaching’
Posted Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:04 PM By k
Mark from PA, I liked your post. My first reaction to this article was negative, because of the situation we find ourselves in with the glorification of sin in our society (not just sexual sins but in almost every area-blasphemy, adultery, immodesty, people honestly brag about not being good). I found a quote by Fr. Zampelli which said, “Those of us who identify as lgbtq have a particular fix on the world and what we have come to understand about ourselves, our society, our religions, our scholarly disciplines, from this particular perspective makes an invaluable contribution to the store of knowledge.” At first I thought “This is beyond denial. This is illusory superiority.” Then I realized he is not condoning homosexual acts at all, He is talking about the experience of people who are different in contact with the world of the “normal”. I would love to hear his (and anyone’s) experiences and the conclusions they have drawn because of these experiences. And these are valid even though they are coming from a different place than heterosexual persons. Just as those from abusive homes have a different experience of family, those who are “hated by some” and “put down and made fun of” have a different experience of society and church. The truth resides in the whole of all of our experiences. Many years ago, I was involved in church ministry. It was awful. The people were so mean; they stabbed each other in the back; sometimes they insulted each other to their face. We had a newly ordained priest who one day told me “I love this parish. The people here are so nice.” I was puzzled until I realized that they WERE all nice- to him, just not to each other. I think his use of the word “celebrated” is probably not what I would use, though.
continued
continued for k from July 30, 2014 at 11:11 am
Will he present Church teaching?
‘Gay-friendly’ priest on ecumenical panel discussing homosexuality
Posted Monday, February 14, 2011 5:12 PM By The Truth Hurts = Catherine
k, You are certainly an apologist for homosexuality. Please stop using the excuse that homosexuals felt unloved by the Church. Homosexuals felt uncomfortable with hearing that trials are no excuse to commit mortal sin. There is no special category for for anyone to have an excuse. Where your posting energy lies, there your heart lies too! Stop enabling dissenters who think that they can change Church teaching. Your post above applies to all not just a selected group of individuals.
Catherine, there is nothing against Catholicism in those posts.
Whatever you think is amiss in those posts, it’s in your head.
I live in a part of the country where everybody says that gay sex is wrong. No one considers it brave. We are Christians here. We don’t hate gay people, just sin. There is nothing wrong with telling the truth. Are you afraid of the truth? If you believe the Catholic Church, homosexuality is not a sin. Homosexual sex acts are. Gay marriage is wrong. Gay adoption is wrong. If standing up for the Church’s teaching makes me an apologist for homosexuality among the people who invent their own versions of the Catholic faith, well so what? God knows better.
And it is very hypocritical of you to do this considering how you side with those who leave the Church over faithful Catholics.
Catherine is siding with the fullness of the Faith, k, not me or anyone else you falsely believe has ‘left the Church’.
You don’t seem to understand that teaching someone the Truth must be backed up with the practice of that Truth otherwise the lesson learned is that Truth, whatever it may be, doesn’t matter. And those in authority who would otherwise be looked to with respect, if only for their integrity, will no longer be trusted for their courting compromise. (Archbishop Chaput was very wise and farsighted not to pit the Church against a child’s only known parents. Neither authority would come out the winner and the child, poor thing, would be even more confused.)
Still, you seem so adamant in your defense of the ‘Catholic’ name. If only that could be paired with what that name actually means in the fullness of Truth. You would be a force to reckon with, k.
Please instruct me.
You can learn by listening and asking questions, k.
I am very dissapointed in your non-answer.
Do you agree with this definition of catholic:
CATHOLIC. Its original meaning of “general” or “universal” has taken on a variety of applications in the course of Christian history. First used by St. Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 35-107) (Letter to the Smyrneans, 8, 2), it is now mainly used in five recognized senses: 1. the Catholic Church as distinct from Christian ecclesiastical bodies that do not recognize the papal primacy; 2. the Catholic faith as the belief of the universal body of the faithful, namely that which is believed “everywhere, always, and by all” (Vincentian Canon); 3. orthodoxy as distinguished from what is heretical or schismatical; 4. the undivided Church before the Eastern Schism of 1054; thereafter the Eastern Church has called itself orthodox, in contrast with those Christian bodies which did not accept the definitions of Ephesus and Chalcedon on the divinity of Christ.
In general, today the term “Catholic” refers to those Christians who profess a continued tradition of faith and worship and who hold to the Apostolic succession of bishops and priests since the time of Christ. (Etym. Latin catholicus, universal; Greek katholikos, universal.)
K We can ALL learn by listening and asking questions. That rule applies to all who work on humility. You know what a really good priest once told me, that it is also a gift to be a good pupil. And good teacher needs to be of witness first so that they can inspire. Jesus is the perfect example of that witness, He lead by example and that is why He is the perfect teacher. Our Beloved Jesus is so merciful that He came as man, and met us at our own level. I pray to be His best pupil, unfortunately my flaws get in the way, but praise Jesus that even when my flaws meddle, He see’s my efforts and my surrendering to Him. The devil hates that, watch out, you will get spiritually attacked, but heck he has no power over us. We belong to our beloved Jesus!
K its like going in circles with you, Catherine does make valid points, which she has always tried to help guide you in charity but it just seems like you don’t get it. Her posts took a lot of time to put together, I hope you can see her charity there. I did.
You may be disappointed in my response to you, k, but you do not want to learn or discuss or grow as evidenced by your bitter reply.
God bless
k I’m sorry, how can this woman direct you when she does not practice what she preaches!
abeca, God bless you.
I know you are sincere.
I know that you accept the Church’s teaching and that if a Pope says something, you will believe him.
I know that you get confused by people who use good to do evil.. You see the good and think it is a good person and you do not realize that the intention is not good. Catherine is the first person to tell everyone how corrupted by the gays the Church is. She knows I’m not gay; She knows I’m not a homo-heretic, She knows I stand up for all church teaching. That is why she does what she does. She is trying to get my goat. I did something to her which she cannot forgive. So she retaliates. It’s been going on for years.
She cannot help it-it is part of her personality. I forgive her and I tried to quit posting but every once in awhile she baits me back. I just came back to kind of defend Mrs. A and now I am sucked in-but I am getting out of it again. Good bye and I pray for everyone here, especially those most in need of prayer.
abeca, Thank you for your counseling and kindness.
I could use prayers because I have multiple serious health problems and one of them is freaking the doctors out a little. I hope your health is better.
Hope Church Militant makes a studio there also.
One reason Michael Voris keeps his edge is his location…the weather here in the Midwest keeps us cranky and able to see through shams and fads. If he moved to California he’d soon be smiling all the time like all you sunny day people and speaking out of both sides of his mouth. ;0). He might even, like uh you know, uh like where lies and um falsehoods are like trapped and exposed, you know?
Oh so it’s the WEATHER that keeps you cranky. Here I thought it was a lack of fiber.
Ha, that could very well be, but at least OUR Catholic governor is pro=life and has done much to lower the abortion rate and close down abortion clinics and our Catholic attorney general has 8 children and is totally pro-family. I hope they both win the coming elections. They’re trying to overturn our constitutional ammendment to support marriage though, through the courts. The fight against evil is neverending. Ann Malley, your post was excellent. Your understanding reflects your inner prayer life and sincere devotion to Mary. I sometimes find myself unable to share those beliefs because they’re rooted so deep and have been so often undermined and rejected when I do that I’m getting more and more reluctant in speaking openly. That is why I’m thankful for this web site as it offers uplifting posts such as yours. I am trying harder to be more of a witness to my husband and family by swallowing barbs and criticism and showing them meekness…yes, me! Anyway, thank you once again for your patient and obviously well-thought out ideas. I just don’t see why there is this controversy but I do think people who are so upset about Vat II should be allowed to express their ideas just as I think people who want only TLM should be able to share without all this vitrol. Neither sides are going to change the other, but there should be one place where you can air your fears and concerns amongst friends and not feel such condemnation. You’re all beloved of Jesus Christ, everyone of you. I love you all too and pray we all are united someday with our Bridegroom. The whole reason and purpose of our lives is to this end.
As Michael Voris said today, Catholics are called to combat…let’s remember who the enemy is and stop wasting energy on ‘friendly fire’ on our own troops. (or is it troups?)
(In case it is cutoff)…Anyway, thank you once again for your patient and obviously well-thought out ideas. I just don’t see why there is this controversy but I do think people who are so upset about Vat II should be allowed to express their ideas just as I think people who want only TLM should be able to share without all this vitrol. Neither sides are going to change the other, but there should be one place where you can air your fears and concerns amongst friends and not feel such condemnation. You’re all beloved of Jesus Christ, everyone of you. I love you all too and pray we all are united someday with our Bridegroom. The whole reason and purpose of our lives is to this end.
As Michael Voris said today, Catholics are called to combat…let’s remember who the enemy is and stop wasting energy on ‘friendly fire’ on our own troops. (or is it troups?) Also, having reread this AFTER I posted it, I should have said liberals and ssa people are trying to undermine our pro-marriage ammendment. I made it sound like it was the governor. Good grief!
God bless you, Dana. I’d say that was a pretty patient and well thought out post that we can all benefit from digesting. I know I did!
“Linda Maria”: What you say very well is precisely, and powerfully, correct. Many, many evangelical and Pentecostal churches focus on faith, building a relationship with Jesus, and His promise of Salvation. Let’s compare this good and wholesome message with what you likely find at the local Catholic Church: a place that does not really like its own faith, in that it refuses to teach it, and to expect its congregation to live it. The Catholic Church has the sacramental gifts from God and is the best place within which to find salvation. But our Church keeps this hidden, and now, with the present Papacy, the Church is finding ways to become even less relevant to achieving salvation. Where are Catholic priests that step up to the pulpit and say things like: Christ died for your sins, but He expects you to be faithful, to remain be married before you have sex (a bid NO to fornication, to homosexuality), to avoid pornography, to avoid adultery, to refuse divorce, to focus on raising your families, to pray constantly, to go to Church regularly, and to become and remain holy in your life. The Church does not regularly say this, but it does have a regular social welfare message of (1) give me your money so we can support President Obama in bringing in more and more illegal immigrant children, and (2) pay more and more taxes (economic meritocracy is wrong) to the government so they can do more and more to assist in family planning and “reproductive health”. Billy Graham and his son Franklin Graham faithfully preach the gospel and are likely responsible for a good number of people finding salvation. You bring up a valuable point, thank you.
St. Christopher, methinks you do not attend the Catholic Church. Am I right?
And this is Anonymous being kind?
That must be a different Anonymous. Also for the go at it, I don’t care of ten people use the name anonymous anymore, because we will just respond to the current one. Deal with one at a time. When the truth is said it does not matter if an anonymous person said it, new person or if a regular said it, the truth is the truth and it will stand on its ground. I was caught up and influenced by some here to have a distaste for anyone posting as anonymous, I no longer am because when the truth is posted, it does not matter if there is a name or no name behind it, the truth is the truth. We have had all kinds of anonymous and I’m sure some tried to play us but I know that there were just one there or so, who actually are faithful and did not care what people thought.
Time to get rid of the circus and have real respectful debates. I’m sure if a blind person was debating, and they were using grid paper to read and then respond, they would not see or know who was making a statement or not, if they were filled with the truth, even a blind person would not have to see to know its the truth!
Abeca writes: ‘…When the truth is said it does not matter if an anonymous person said it, new person or if a regular said it, the truth is the truth and it will stand on its ground.”
That is all we’re searching for here. So good show. Let the Truth stand on its own ground, no matter who says it. Thank you, Abeca, for stating that which should the basis for everything.
Ann you are always insinuating…go to confession.
YOU ARE THE ONE WHO IS not honest and you are double standard. “tell the truth” What truth are you asking about missy. What are you cooking up again? What are you trying to insinuate again? Again and again, Ann has some kind of conspiracy notion. It is the bad will in her because she refuses to be in union with Rome. You just have to keep posting Ann and its you who just keeps “pinning” your self. You are just angry because you want to control anyone out there who may use the name Anonymous. For whatever reason, you are an irrational woman.
what are you trying to insinuate? . Dishonest of what? Forget it I don’t want to know, its hard to dialogue with irrational woman like yourself.
You are guilty of slander and other grievous sins against me.
Ann Malley and Catherine I will pray for you both. You both have slandered many good people here by your “kanonymous” notions, by your anti-V2 comments etc. Like it or not! I only honor Christ and His church under the Magisterium. I am no longer under your influence Catherine. I am happy to be free of this mentality that you share alike with Ann. To be insinuating that I am dishonest or am conspiring, you have already crossed the line. You will only get worst because you are living in such sin against your neighbor. Bearing false witness. Also get this straight, those of us who are in union with Rome, we will deal with our own, you have no right to admonish anyone from within, since you are in defiant against the church, you have no authority to admonish our own. We will deal with our own issue in house without the schismatics.
This website is not only used by homosexual activist but it also used by those who are Anti-V2. Those of good will, will see right through their nasty play. So I am not surprised if this one is after me because I am faithful to Rome.
Ann this is what Abeca writes “They use this website, owned by Post V2 ownership, to vent about V2 and even gossip of what they have heard about V2. I bet that most of them have not read the entire V2 documents nor do they understand that no dogma was changed. Bet they don’t know that many who stay in union with Rome, are fighting the good fight but no thanks to them, because all they will do is vent on what this person is not doing right or for whatever reason, its all here on this website, check out the past articles they are facts, I am not making them up! Those of us who study scripture, read the CCC, saints and more….know that the devil hates this church and will use anyone from within and from those who are not in union, to try to destroy it. It won’t happen, Jesus is with us till the end of times. If you are a faithful Catholic in union with Rome, do not let yourself be influenced by dissenters in union or not in union with the church, surround yourself with faithful Catholics in union with Rome, you will never see this kind of slander, ill assumptions or hatred like you see here being spewed here.
God bless you and be well, Abeca.
Ann Malley,
I want you to know that when we sent evidence to the Vatican and when the prelate personally viewed the video and read the many, many pages of documented evidence of heterodoxy, this prelate in the Vatican said that it was also important for the laity to consistently challenge the error that is often taught. Some Catholics do not realize that behind the scenes that many faithful priests (including those in Rome) who ARE saying PLEASE stand up for the truth. I believe it has been extremely beneficial for you to see that there are still those who do see the real picture and that we are charitably challenging it when we are faced with it. Also, many very good priests have encouraged the laity to speak out. The prelate in Rome told my friend’s daughter which particular bishops to contact when she returned home. When he said that it reminded me of Our Lady of Akita’s message regarding bishops against bishops and cardinal against cardinals. You cannot get more Church Militant “in-house” that this, but still there are those who will cause even more division instead of charitably trying to one day be reunited. You wrote earlier Ann Malley that Catholics have forgotten who the real enemy is. You are so right and it is NOT those who were scattered by wolves in sheep’s clothing.
continued from August 4, 2014 at 2:15pm
Ann Malley,
Once again, I want you to realize that many faithful priests have encouraged the laity people to speak up because they will be ostracized or often transferred if they teach the full truth. Father Hardon SJ said that only heroic Catholics will survive what is to come. Father HardonSJ also wanted the sacrament of Confirmation to be given at an earlier age in order for our children to be spiritually ready and prepared to face our world. I know that you are aware that I have never once wrote anything about Vatican II or anything that could be used as a selective weapon to say that I am criticizing the Church or the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Steve Phoenix very eloquently explained my own thoughts as well as the thoughts of very many of my Catholic friends who are all under the umbrella of a diocese. CCD has allowed this dialogue and it has been more than informative. You were right about Our Lord praying for unity and I do believe that often the biggest enablers of disunity are sometimes those who use their own personal emotions while not really realizing or understanding that Rome does want the laity to speak out.
Thank you, Catherine, for your assuring words. I’ve no doubt there are those ‘inside’ fighting the good fight. It’s something I tell those I interact with outside the umbrella of a diocese all the time. A necessary communique.
Not getting emotional is key in navigating these times of crisis. But emotions run high all around. Human nature. It doesn’t help that human emotion and fear are played up very often as a means to prevent reality checks about what folks actually believe. Paint someone as the boogie man often enough and that’s the name that sticks. Perpetuating the myth is often confused with a sign of loyalty. It’s okay.
You write, “…Some Catholics do not realize that behind the scenes that many faithful priests (including those in Rome) who ARE saying PLEASE stand up for the truth.” That is what I have heard as well. And I have no doubt it is the truth.
But fears and phobias abound in and out of the diocese. Thanks again for being a voice for reason and the fullness of Truth. God bless and take care. :)
Will Mickey and Minnie be making guest appearances with Raymond Arroyo from time to time?
Do either of them speak/understand Latin, the CCC or the difference between Opus Dei and Manducat Dominum?
I would hope that having some EWTN presence here in the Pacific Time Zone finally would bring EWTN to the realization that their scheduled programming for the Eastern Time Zone is a disaster for those of us here in the Pacific Time Zone who desire to view EWTN programming during the prime-time evening hours..
Christ Cathedral to Build Radio Broadcast Facility in Partnership with Immaculate Heart Radio
https://www.rcbo.org/news-and-events/…ous-unity.html
The Holy Spirit is certainly at work in Garden Grove, CA!
I hope that EWTN can maintain its identity with this latest move: it is hard to imagine how it will. The forces mounted against it in the dioceses of LA and Orange are formidable. Just as the former secretary to Card. Mahony was recently advanced to a key position in the Arch, it is clear who still calls the shots.
That’s a very good point, Steve. Also, since with television you can be just about anywhere, what is the advantage of moving to California? Everything will be more expensive out there for one thing. All these old villains like Soros and Cd Mahony just keep going and going and going…why can’t they retire gracefully?
Well God bless EWTN, Los Angeles really needs this. With Catholic radio, The Tridentine Mass coming and now EWTN….we hope that this will bring Catholicity to another level and help return, one person at a time, to God. To return to God what belongs to Him, by people returning to God. Los Angeles is the rotten apple that is what is promoting all kinds of filth. We need to pray for California. It is leading a lot of immorality. Whatever we can do, big or small, to mercifully help the fallen away, return to God, is a moral duty we are all responsible for.
Ann Malley, Thank you so very much for your July 31, 2014 at 4:00 pm post. Also I think you have accurately assessed the situation taking place. A few years ago Ken Fisher wrote something very true. He may have used other words but I think what he was trying to convey was something along the lines to beware of the low level of dirty play and underhandedness which knows no boundaries. I want to also thank Steve Phoenix who is also very accurate in his assessment. Amazing isn’t it? Ann Malley do you notice how we are often accused of being the same person? Is that what others are doing? For me Ann that is a beautiful compliment because all Catholics used to be recognizable as “being of one mind” in their faith.
continued…
Continued from July 31, 2014 at 11:03 pm for Ann Malley
Recently I spoke with a cartoonist who told me that a group of Catholics came up to him and said, “Hey you really gave it to us pretty bad when we heard you talk about the Church’s teaching regarding not using artificial birth control.” The cartoonist told me that he never made one disparaging remark or personal dig at anyone. He was simply sharing out loud what the Church has always taught at some Catholic gathering. He was really taken aback by their acting personally slighted. I told him that this is what happens when people really do know the truth but they have chosen to reject that teaching and then surround themselves in an atmosphere that dulls and lulls the conscience aka ear tickling. Many truths are no longer taught with vigor or binding validity. Then along comes this faithful young, handsome, successful cartoonist who pricks the comfort zone of those slumbering consciences just because he simply talked about the true teachings of the Catholic Church. For this he was assailed by fellow Catholics as somehow insulting them. Thank you again and a very special thank you to Steve Phoenix who is truly a noble gentleman in not only eloquently defending the Catholic faith but to also defend the ladies. Catholic chivalry is still alive on CCD!
Catherine I disagree with you. Of course you will thank Steve. You are all of the like mind, irrational, double standard and hypocritical! I feel that your pride is way bigger than we thought. You are not a good friend, you are enabling Ann and others to continue in their error and now with foolish assumptions which I consider that your dialogue will not convert souls but only push them further away. There is a lot of hypocrisy amongst many here. I think that Catherine is full of assumptions and tends to agree with those who have the same rigid standards that lack charity and usually they fall in certain sins that they do not want to look within themselves. Catherine you once posted as The Truth Hurts and when you changed your name to Catherine, as I recall you said you were testing the people or something of that nature. You were caught by k, I believe. I think that the reason you suspect new people that comment here it is because it is something that you, your self would conclude because you would know first hand. I find it repulsive that you would agree with Ann and pin me down just because Charles and who ever others do not agree with those who are not loyal to Rome. Why would Ann have ill assumptions and bring me in her irrational assumptions? Is it jealousy or envy? I don’t get it, you ladies decided to pin me in with this, then I will tell you that you are so wrong and I feel sorry for you!
Like it or not, but some in our church do stick up for each other. You ladies have done a fine job at distracting from the articles and from decent debates, but instead you have made it by saying this person is that person, all your assumptions. The whole thread becomes a circus. You get us all caught up in that dysfunction, that I was influenced once by you and now I am not. You will amount to this kind of style of debating because what you have to say is not valid enough to stand ground on, so you have to steep low to slander the good name of some. Now I have become your target and you use Steve and Ann as your walls of protection.
I recall when Maryanne Leanard changed the spelling of her name, you acted paranoid and wanted to magnify by trying to slander her, you demanded why she changed the spelling of her name or something of that nature. You always try to give personal attacks to discredit when you see fit. Its your style of debating that drives faithful people to leave. Maryanne may not have been perfect but she has the heart to be loyal. I do not want to fight with you, I have remained silence since you and Ann tried this before on others threads against me, I have even kept away out of charity to hopefully help you girls cool down. I even allowed Ann to have a go at me, as I did not defend myself as she went on and on…she even said on another thread “If anybody points out your flaws, Abeca, you get mad as a wet hen”. She thinks I got mad. No. and she feels the need to look into flaws, when we were discussing church not debating this flaw over this flaw. her style of debating I wanted no part and she tries to read much into me, she has no clue. Not even close and now you Catherine whom I though would knew better. I guess I was wrong and over estimated you. What does your church say about slander, bearing false witness?
As I have previously stated on a number of occasions, it is always good to be in complete union with the Magisterium. That goes for everyone too including our own shepherds, which even Our Lady of Akita says that many within the Church have accepted compromises.
“What does your church say about slander, bearing false witness?” = Early Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church say the following
“We’ve had enough of exhortations to be silent! Cry out with a hundred thousand tongues. I see that the world is rotten because of silence.”
– St. Catherine of Siena
“I do not think there are many among Bishops that will be saved, but many more that perish.” St. John Chrysostom, Extract from St. John Chrysostom, Homily III on Acts 1:12.2
“The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.”
St. Athanasius, Council of Nicaea, AD 325 attributed.3
continued…..
continued from August 1, 2014 at 12:44 pm
“It must be observed, however, that if the faith were endangered, a subject ought to rebuke his prelate even publicly.”
St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica II, II, q. 33, a. 45
“Augustine says in his Rule: ‘Show mercy not only to yourselves, but also to him who, being in the higher position among you, is therefore in greater danger.’ But fraternal correction is a work of mercy. Therefore even prelates ought to be corrected.” St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica II, II, q. 33, a. 4, Sed Contra.
“It is better that scandals arise than the truth be suppressed.”
Pope St. Gregory the Great 6
“But, when necessity compels, not those only who are invested with power of rule are bound to safeguard the integrity of faith, but, as St. Thomas maintains: ‘Each one is under obligation to show forth his faith, either to instruct and encourage others of the faithful, or to repel the attacks of unbelievers.’”
Pope Leo XIII
God desires from you the least degree of purity of conscience more than all the works you can perform.
St. John of the Cross
~~~~
Reprimand and rebuke should be accepted as healing remedies for vice and as conducive to good health. From this it is clear that those who pretend to be tolerant because they wish to flatter—–those who thus fail to correct sinners—–actually cause them to suffer supreme loss and plot the destruction of that life which is their true life.
St. Basil the Great
~~~
None of your quotes answer the question “What does the Church say about slander and false witness?”
Please try to find some of those.
I would also like to point out that it is very appropriate to correct a priest or bishop if there is a need.
However, that is done, as you know, in private conversation with them, not by internet flaming.
You pin yourself Abeca.
Ann Malley Again you live in an imaginative world. No pun intended either. How wrong you are missy. it must be the cyper space, it lead many to assume, be careful because it can be sinful.
Try taking a long hike, barefoot, praying the rosary. Alone. As you try to avoid anything sharp, you carefully watch your every step and pray. A bouquet of roses we give to our Lady as we pray the whole rosary barefoot on the long trail. With each decade one can reflect on the saints when some of them gave up their shoes to walk and share the gospel. As other hikers pass by, some will ask “are you alright?” ,some just look at your feet and keep going. After the rosary, you continue to walk and have some personal time in silence with our Beloved Jesus. As you look up high at the tall trees, you see the beauty in all that God has created and all His living things. Not realizing that your foot was bleeding because of something sharp, that you stepped on. The rest is between God and I. But you should try it. You will appreciate more what the saints went through.
That was the only thing I pinned myself, it rather hurt my foot. I look forward to another walk.
Ann. You have quite an imagination I would have to say. Perhaps you can write fiction books, you can keep your readers abroad. Happy to you, fix your eye’s on Jesus dear. = )
Abeca, you wrote the following about someone else:
“…I think that ****** is full of assumptions and tends to agree with those who have the same rigid standards that lack charity and usually they fall in certain sins that they do not want to look within themselves.”
We all fail in charity, Abeca. That is why we have recourse to Confession and Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. At times, my name would surely fit inside the asterisks. So saying, you could easily replace the asterisks with your name and find the statement to be true as well.
That is why we should seek to dialogue for understanding, not condemnation.
Thank you and God bless you, Catherine. I too take it as a compliment to be thought that I ‘might’ actually be you. Unity of belief is that which Our Lord prayed for and I thank Him for making that request of the Father on our behalf.
That said, another special THANK YOU to Steve Phoenix.
I am honored by your chivalry, Sir, much as I am by the skill with which you have come to my defense. If I could give you a courtly favor of sleeve or glove, you would have it. God bless you and Our Lady protect you!
I am appreciate of the discussion (even if some are not) regarding tradition, liturgy, “the [capital-F] Faith” and appreciative of Cal Catholic’s quite courageous efforts to allow Catholic debate, even tho vilified inevitably they are for doing so. I am also appreciative of Catherine, Ann M., Dana, RR, Canisius, the incomparable-and-hysterically funny Michael McDermott (altho’ again, not to some), even YFC, St Christopher, Ken Fisher,Abeca, and many others who, sorry I am leaving them out, for their challenging and penetrating commentary.
Some years ago, a friend, an ex-special forces Vietnam certifiable tough-guy, challenged me to find out, “What new infallible dogmas were stated at V2?” I had swallowed all the Jesuit University rutabagas about Rahner, Congar, et al: I took him up on it—and unwillingly discovered he was right: there are no new infallible dogmas stated at V2. It is why C. Ratzinger/PBXVI himself critiqued the tendency to make Vatican II into a “superdogma” (his words) (Address, Chilean Bishops Conference, July 13,1988) that trumped all prior Catholic belief and demanded total fealty and allegiance. This started the digging process for me.
Then he handed me Iota Unum (by Romano Amerio, a V2 peritus and eye-witness) as a gift: “Here: read this: I think you will like it — A LOT.” It was a Paul-meeting-Ananias moment.
Those Catholics who are serious (not everyone is—that too is a fruit of the indifferentism “ok’d” by Lumen Gentium, cf. 15-16, & Gaudium et Spes, cf. n 40-41) and want to know the facts will be astounded at what comes out about V2 and its key actors —- Congar, Weakland, Rahner, Kung, and so many others.
There was little spiritual motivation in many of the periti, but instead, a drive for secular power and media popularity. R. DeMattei has documents that these periti were actively plotting in October, 1962 a secret agenda to “change the Church”, certainly morally indefensible behavior at a council. Now that their personal journals and diaries have been and continue to be published, we see that Congar in particular, who had been disciplined in the 1950’s, was intent on revenge against the Curia. Rahner, Chenu, and others had similar motivations.
As for the bishops, during the 1st session, the insight and disdain of one of their own should be noted: “Those bishops and cardinals in their trousers who cannot stand for 5 minutes without a cigar or cigarette in their mouth, who make light of all the prohibitions, ‘No smoking, please!’, and couldnt care less about all the misgivings of the Latins (=Curia)—they go to the bar or to the hotel with so many clerical insignia with such fine manners, accompanied by the Gentleman! ..it seems that they have lots to do besides pray.” (comments of Bp. Luigi C. Borromeo (Pesaro, Italy), “1962 The First Session”, Mattei, 2nd Vat Council, p. 227 .)
Scandalized by what he had seen during the Council, Bp. Antonino Romeo, Head of the Sacred Congregation for Seminaries, remarked during the 3rd session (1964), ” A sinister comedy of there thousand good-for-nothings, with gold crosses on their chests, who dont even believe in the Trinity or the Virgin, at least some of them dont.” (Mattei, p. 425)
There was a drive of course immediately to set aside all the carefully prepared schemata, as most people know: the progressive revolutionaries especially wanted the documents on the Church, scripture, and religious liberty to be delayed so they could completely suborn them. What many people dont know is that the schemata they allowed which had the least radical changes in it was—V2 Jeopardy Question — on the Sacred Liturgy. This is why if you read literally Sacro. Concilium, it is for the most part NOT a controversial document, unlike parts of Lumen Gentium, Gaudium et Spes, and Dignitatis Humanae (“Religious Liberty”) in which the ambiguous trap doors start to become more obvious and problematic.
“We have used ambiguous phrases during the Council and we know how we will interpret them afterwards.” — the exact words of Edward Schillebeeckx, progressive peritus of Vatican II
And this is why we are where we are today.
Charles A: I resurfaced for no other reason than the reason you appeared here. I wanted to! Also, I resurfaced as the same person I was before with nothing to hide. But thanks for asking!
RR thanks for being charitable to new comers. As always you are sweet and kind. I hope he feels welcomed enough to return, we need more faithful Catholics. God bless you always.