The following comes from a flyer put out in the Sacramento diocese.
Courage Workshop for priests and deacons
Wednesday, April 24, 10 am to 3 pm
Diocesan Pastoral Center, 2110 Broadway, Sacramento
The clergy study day will address questions surrounding homosexuality from four perspectives:
– Theological anthropology
– Personal witness
– Psychological sciences
– The Church’s pastoral response to homosexuality
The work of Courage is fully consistent with the pastoral norms promulgated by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in 1986 in Homosexualitatis problema.
The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops 2006 document
Ministry to Persons with a Homosexual Inclination only identifies Courage and EnCourage—a complementary outreach to family and friends of a person with same-sex attractions (SSA)—as approved ministries in this area in the U.S.
Please visit the following website https://couragerc.net/Resources_for_Priests.html
especially if you are attending the workshop. This website contains useful
information regarding Courage and the resources available for you. Office of Clergy Formation RSVP: 916-733-0242 E-mail: mabshire@scd.org
Also available via teleconferencing at the following sites:
Our Lady of Mercy Parish, Redding
Our Divine Savior Parish, Chico
Holy Spirit Parish, Fairfield
Holy Family Parish, Weed
The priest’s who get their jollies playing “clergyman who indulges in sodomy”, need to be booted out of the ministerial priesthood!…The rampant gay subculture has putrified enough of the Church…time to clean out the filth, that stinks of corruption and mortal sin!
Imagine our attitudes defective in charity which were partially behind what one commentator recently called “the Divorce Tsunami of the 1970s”: In the period preceding No-Fault Divorce, Women divorced through no fault of their own, and even their children–count among them Rita Rizzo, now known as Mother Angelica–were commonly treated as tainted and unworthy of association, in the heart of the American Church.
An expert on this article’s subject is Dale O’Leary, author of “One Man, One Woman: A Catholic’s Guide to Defending Marriage”. Dale mentions that in the period during which homosexualists were planning their current public relations victory–call it the “After the Ball” onslaught–there was commonly lack of sufficient charity for those afflicted with Same-Sex Attraction, through no fault of their own. This issue is distinct from how people act: We love the sinner, though we hate the sin.
However factually true Proud Rhodesian’s remarks may be, they have no relation to the fine Courage program helps those afflicted with SSA to live out their vocation to chastity. I suggest that Proud Rhodesian’s comments be deleted.
I agree.
Thank you Rod…agree with you!
Rod you may have made some good points and yes you are right but the comments from Proud Phedesians are also welcomed because we hardly hear the disgust a man has for sodomy…it is not heard often anymore…its not politically correct remember??…so before you judge him you better darn look at your own first… for the faithful are too hurting in different ways on how the gay activism has hurt the mission of the church.
Just because you have viewed it differently does not make his argument wrong. I have noticed that charity also includes the pain one feels at sin that is being indoctrinated and imposed upon the people. Charity is understand too well how much pain and grief is it causing…it is not only the homosexual that is suffering my friend but also the misguided children and it’s elders too.
We are all affected…lets not be in denial of this. Some states more than others have already imposed their gay agenda’s on the people. It was the long years of denial and silence from the people that have brought this issue to it’s grand as it is now….
Proud Rhodesian’s comments should not be deleted. The homosexualization that has taken place within the Church and society is coming from the outspoken support of duplicitous wolves within the Church. Courage programs will also need to include training regarding the many lies that are being spread from within by these duplicitous wolves who are enabling sinners and causing confusion.
Taken from Father Z’s blog
The former MC for John Paul II and, briefly Benedict XVI, has publicly come out in favor of same-sex unions.
According to Vatican Insider, Archbp. Piero Marini, head of the office that organizes Eucharist Congresses, was speaking on Costa Rica recently.
“It is necessary to recognize the union of persons of the same sex, because there are many couples that suffer because their civil rights aren’t recognized. What can’t be recognized is that this union is equivalent to marriage”.
And he also commented on Pope Francis.
“It’s a breath of fresh air; it’s opening a window onto springtime and onto hope. We had been breathing the waters of a swamp and it had a bad smell. We’d been in a church afraid of everything, with problems such as Vatileaks and the paedophilia scandals. With Francis we’re talking about positive things”. And, “there’s a different air of freedom, a church that’s closer to the poor and less problematic”.
I take this to be a public trashing of Benedict XVI.
No surprise. He and his enablers trashed Pope Benedict in the book which the non-English speaking Marini put out in English only: A Challenging Reform: Realizing the Vision of the Liturgical Renewal, 1963-1975. It is co-authored by Keith Pecklers, SJ (who had some problems of his own HERE) and, perhaps Mark Francis, CSV (a tradition-basher now at the ultra-liberal CTU, HERE).
The Marini/Pecklers/Francis book purports to tell the story of the glorious work of the Consilium, the entity established during the Second Vatican Council to implement the liturgical reform mandated inSacrosanctum Concilium. The Consilium was headed up by Annibale Bugnini and Card. Lercaro.
The authors’ purpose is to defend the fruits of Bugnini’s Consilium and criticize Benedict XVI’s vision.
The authors, however, exposed what the reforms were trying to accomplish through the liturgical reforms.
Look at this passage. Context: The Consilium has just transitioned from an informally meeting group to an officially, formally established body. They have their first plenary session. And now the money-quote:
“They met in public to begin one of the greatest liturgical reforms in the history of the Western church. Unlike the reform after Trent, it was all the greater because it also dealt with doctrine.” (p. 46)
Bugnini and crew were trying to change the Church’s doctrine. Obvious, no? Change the way we pray and you change what people believe.
And I am not the only one who took Marini’s remarks to be criticisms of Pope Benedict. One of the writers for the UK’s Catholic Herald came to the same conclusion.
Thank you Catherine for understanding this….I see that many applaud comments like Rod’s but lack the understanding and charity towards those who are scandalized. It is a new norm now. It’s like the unborn children’s cries and yells that we don’t hear or neglect to listen to because the media/secular society doesn’t want to end abortion so it’s hushed or deleted, ignored discounted etc…it is the same now with trying to shut up the outcry that the soul feels from homosexual scandals.
It’s like the inward bleeding, if a person has that bleeding and it is not allowed to be found out….then the person may die due to internal bleeding. It’s The hush hush, it’s not nice to mention the truth of what unnatural choices cause mentality.
I read Abp Marini’s comment in Vatican Insider this morning. I was appalled by his arrogance and sheer gall. Methinks he is still sore at Pope Benedict for giving him the boot. He intimates that Benedict’s pontificate was a return to the dark ages. His espousal of same-sex relationships speaks volumes. He should have been canned years ago. His association with Bugnini, architect of the novus ordo abomination, puts him clearly in the progressive protestantizing camp. I hope that someday soon Pope Francis will show us his cards. The signs are hopeful that he will turn out a conservative. Were he to sanction sodomy, as is hoped by the progressives within our ranks, we would most certainly lose many of the faithful in a devastating schism.
I lived in a war torn land…overrun by marxist filth! When Ian ran the show, life was right! in Rhodesia…not Zimbabwe, which RGM has turned into a marxist hell-hole! I cherish my faith Rod…and the glories of colonialism! Does that make me uncharitable?…Clean your own house lad…and don’t point out my “truth” as offensive, when you can’t see the duplicitous plank proceeding from your own eye…
God bless you Proud Rhodesian. I feel you pain.
I feel YOUR pain…God bless you
Amen, closet cases.
This is great. Is the Sacramento Diocese finally realizing that homosexuality kills the soul, and greatly harms, or kills, the body, not to mention the hundreds of young men and boys abused by homosexuals (pederasts)?
For decades only pro-homosexual Catholic events have been available and promoted in Sacramento. This includes Dignity Masses, Gay and Lesbian Journey, Always Our Children, and more recently the effort by St. Francis Church in Sacramento to provide sessions on welcoming “gays” into Catholic churches, socially engineered by an officer of the local Gay and Lesbian Center, who just happens to be the “domestic partner” of the chair of St. Francis Parish Council – two females, by the way.
I hope we will have a follow-up on this program in Sacramento. It has been extremely helpful in other states. I wonder if there are any Courage chapters or programs elsewhere in California.
Laurette, you’d be jumping the gun here. We do not know what the content of this program is. From the headings, I’d guess it is not all that substantial and probably coddles the “sensitive”. Why not start the thing by having the priests crawl on their knees along a gravel path for … what is that distance in, is it, Knock? … to the Crucifix or Shrine? Why not, in other words, start out with a penance service … one of those penance things where people deal with real physical pain. Otherwise how would anyone including themselves know they were not faking it simply to provide lip service to the program developers (no pun intended)?
There are 11 other cities in California with Courage programs.
If this program is so effective, then why is there still a problem after so many years? Recall that the Pope Emeritus said that no same sex attracted men should ever be admitted to seminaries and if there then they should be shown the door, and under no circumstances should same sex men be ordained … because they are not fit to be priests. This should be obvious.
I know it sounds great but can we trust it to be biblical and truly faith based?
I remember attending a meeting many years ago when I was active with Concerned Women for America…they exposed the tactics of gay activism, they also shared their compassion and love to care for those with homosexual disorders but they never hushed the truth about how those tactics are being infiltrated within faith based institutions and the harm it is causing, back then it was a warning of what was to happen…what we are seeing today…we tried warning others and so has those who left the homosexual lifestyles and gave their life back to Jesus….for with God’s wisdom and knowledge there is power.
I was probably one of the few Catholics who was taught that in their meetings. Who knows….because we are imperfect and yes that is not a sin but I do get concerned…if we don’t recognize what is false compassion, if the blind lead the blind….then this problem will only continue to get worst.
This program should be in our prayers. For it’s success only in the direction that God wants it, not as how man see’s it because that is where mankind has failed….when we meddle thinking we now better than God..that is when we go wrong. The truth should never be hushed or silenced or deleted. For with real love…the Truth always shines.
If you need to find out what it is about, why not go to the ad listed on the right side of this website.
Cardinal Lopez Trujillo, speaking on behalf of the Holy See, had the following to say about the work of COURAGE:
“This Pontifical Council for the Family supports the organization called ‘Courage’ which was founded by Father John Harvey, OSFS, for helping homosexual persons to live in accordance with the laws of God and the teaching of His Church.”
(7 July 1994 – Prot. N216/93)
jcross I know. Thank you though. The CCC has many great teachings…there we can seek as well…I just wish the Bishops would apply them as well…like some have expressed here before if only the Bishops would read the CCC and apply what they learned as well….that is why it is important to keep this work in our prayers…to remain faithful and to truly care for our brothers and sisters needing healing and support in Christ.
The conflict between the views in the posts of McK and Rhodesian really need to be articulated. Both together pretty much hit the main button of this situation.
Thank you Skai…very well said!
All Priests need to know how to handle the temptations and sins of homosexuality.
Everyone must start with:
– Holy Scripture;
– the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition;
– and on the Vatican web site read: “LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS” from the CONGREGATION for the DOCTRINE of the FAITH.
There must be accurate pastoral care for all Souls including those with same sex attraction. The Courage organization can be very helpful with this in addition to those I stated above.
David it can be very helpful if they apply…..that is why we need to keep them in our prayers. I wish they gained some of the knowledge of it from the meetings I learned when I attended Concerned Women for America…although this organization is not Catholic…they didn’t wash down the truth, nor did they tone it down either and they use language that was kind and truthful. They are not Catholic but they sure have the gift of conveying well….and they did not need the CCC to do it either. Now before someone jumps in and has malice towards my comments, I meant no pun intended with my comment on the CCC.
“Even the justice of God, by faith of Jesus Christ, unto all and upon all them that believe in him: for there is no distinction:” Romans 3:22
What’s with evryone in the photo posing like the Naziz in WW II. We are not Protestants we are CATHOLIC.
And when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded in mind, because that every man heard them speak in his own tongue. ACTS 2:6
Joe: A., the Nazis were not specifically protestant; B., good observation about their “heil” type salutes though … strange; C., where is the altar?; D. woman at piano lower right of picture; E., clergy in pews; F. looks on faces suggests not a lot of hope among those people for the program.
The “heil” type salute is a congregation holding their hands out in a very Catholic gesture of asking for a blessing over people. Rather than developing more conspiracy theories, let’s just assume that the people are standing in the front of the sanctuary for their blessing, that it is not unusual for clergy to sit in the front pews, that women can play pianos. None of these things would indicate anything but a normal Catholic thing, although most liturgical Protestant churches have copied most of our liturgy since VII.
Joe, where in god’s name do you get your impression of the picture. It is a group of people standing together, receiving, it appears, a blessing from a priest. There is nothing in the picture that looks like Nazis folks and has nothing to do with Protestants vs. Catholics. How do you come up with this stuff?
Some of the people have their right arms raised, which can be construed as a nazi salute depending on the context.
Courage was started by the late Fr. John Harvey over 40 years ago to help same-sex attracted men and women to live chastely and develop spiritually. Thanks be to God Bishop Soto is beginning this program to pastors. There are chapters in other dioceses in California. I pray other bishops follow his example.
Again, same sex attracted men should not be priests, nor admitted to seminaries; so, what is the point of this program, when they should simply be removed from clerical status?
Skai I agree
Fr. Shannon Collins on EWTN had a wonderful talk on why homosexual men can not be called to be priests….he demonstrated very good facts and common sense.
Good God! What you suggest is not found within Catholic doctrine.
Men whose overt or hidden SSA are not admitted to seminaries. The Church excuses them, in love, with love, to do God’s work in other ways.
Skai, this is not a program for gay priests. It is to instruct priests in the Courage program so they can recommend it to their parishioners who may struggle with this.
Is this for real? Sounds almost too good to be true!
Do you think its time for me to start a lobby demanding that the Church approves and welcome the sin of racial hatred towards others? If Sodomy is going to be approved, perhaps the church should consinder approving other sins?
We must NEVER approve sin.
But we must try to SAVE all Souls.
if you go to YouTube and type in the key words “franciscan friars courage conference” you can view and listen to some talks on this excellent program. One of them has Cardinal Burke who attended the 2011 Courage/Encourage conference. He gives his whole-hearted endorsement of this program and expresses his desire that it should be in every diocese.
I have full confidence in Cardinal Burke’s judgment. This is a good omen!
And of course none of the instructors will ever in any way tweek the course to nullify its goodness.
Years ago, in SA…I saw a poor devil, in Natal…eaten alive with the AIDS…truly ghastly…this poor devil was a skeletal bone rack, with deadpan eyes, that looked like blank saucers…I told him to make a good sacramental confession, he did!…His spirits picked up, he gained weight…and passed away, a contented save soul about 4 years later…his soul was saved…I believe he warranted no less then Purgatory…which means he’s saved…this bloke was always at mass…praying his rosary, and doing the stations! He was a wonderful, cheery, beloved chap…we miss Rodney
We will very soon be living in a world where good Catholics can continue to promote and participate in traditional two gender marriage while politely ignoring the ongoing secular based one-gender marriage activity. The actual gay population is less than 5% and we shouldn’t feel particularly threatened by them. Our Church can continue to prohibit gay marriage ceremonies while welcoming gays to worship with us throughout the year. Denying them Communion is a slippery slope the Church should avoid.
The comments about Pope Benedict are noted. Benedict was a an exceptionally bright and holy man, but who was in way over his head as Pope during a time of turmoil. In his heart, Benedict was a philosopher at a time the Vatican needed an astute business CEO, an engaged public relations crisis manager, and a positive change agent seeking to reform the Church to make it more conforming to Christ’s will…..beginning with the institutional Church itself. Benedict should be thanked for his service and allowed to enjoy a happy and restful retirement. Pope Francis is worthy of our prayers and support as he tackles the growing demands of a Church in need of reform.
The gay agenda is a potent political, religious and cultural force, and a grave danger to social stability.
Maybe some bishops endorse this program not for any hope that it will transform SSA men but as a lesson that these men are not going to be changed any time soon, and it would be better to follow the Pope Emeritus’ rule to take them out of the clergy and not let such cases into it in the first place.
Dear Skai, the Pope Emeritus never issued a rule to defrock gay clergy. Please get the facts correct.
Skai, I don’t recall Pope Benedict ever saying that gay priests should be taken out of the clergy. He called them to be holy and faithful to their vows of celibacy. Why should gay priests who are faithfully celibate feel that they should leave the priesthood or the Church? No Pope has ever said this.
I agree. Celibacy rules #1.
It’s the “weekenders” who plan for the party we’re concerned about.
PA, we went through this issue thoroughly a couple years ago. Many bloggers posted the words, and it was completely discussed. Why do you prevaricate in such deceit all the time?
A cold, domineering and remote father and an overbearing, smothering mother will always insure that a male born neutral towards sexual inclination (no-one comes out of the womb lusting for the same sex, that’s preposterous, absurd) will almost without fail begin to inclinate towards the same sex, that’s sexuality 101. And it’s partly the way of the world. But the MAIN element that has to be in that mix is that some male figure, brother, cousin, uncle or close friend will have SEDUCED the (usually very) young man for the seducer’s own twisted reasons which, quite often, involve some older male figure having seduced HIM back in the day. Growing up in Hollywood, Calif., back in the late ‘forties and early ‘fifties, I knew some that this happened to. But it was especially pronounced in Hollywood in that time frame, because there were so MANY actors, actresses, supporting players, bit performers, etc., who lived in tinseltown, due to the fact that there were so many STUDIOS within walking distance to all the various neighborhoods that made up Hollywierd. At least 8 studios were extant at that time, and this was the days of A movies AND B movies, when it was common to see at least 2 full-length movies when going to the theatres. And, it goes without saying, a WHOLE LOT of homosexuals gravitated towards the studios because of the very volatile emotional wrecks of performers in general. Very confused people, so many of them, with very weak moral senses. That’s been the state of the moviemaking business since the beginning, but ESPECIALLY in Hollywood. And so the whole movie colony was INFESTED by homosexualists and their severely neurotic, even psychotic, natures. More another time. GOD BLESS ALL, MARKRITE
Markrite, your comments about a cold, domineering father and an overbearing mother being the cause of homosexuality are stereotypes from the 1940’s and 1950’s. This has pretty much been debunked and most people, including medical and psychiatric professions don’t believe this anymore. Mothers may contribute to their sons’ homosexuality due to influences of female hormones on developing fetuses but this is not something that they have any control over.
Not hormones. That is just a tangential way to get back to the biological “made this way” argument, which has not produced anything as yet, physiologic, genetic. The “cold, domineering father” and “overbearing mother” can be true, but we are by no means limited to that scenario. There are many scenarios, many permutations of early/mid childhood developmental problems. For example, how about the kind father observed by the children to be sexually rejected by an otherwise kind mother, leaving the children to be mystified as to what exactly is a healthy sexual marriage and what is would look like. Bottom line is the children watch the sexual dysfunction of the parents and their minds begin to try to correct the observed manifest disorder by what turns out to be accretions of disorders: the answer is worse than the question was! Thus the array of various disorders within the children once they mature: serial divorce and remarriage, SSA, refusal to ever marry, etc ad nauseum. It all goes back to the home, the domestic church.
PS it’s not just the parents either, that children observe. It is the extended family. There are endless opportunities for disorder to set in. Thus the plethora in our time.
What about ancient Sparta, which cultivated homosexual warriors, and which had no movie making at all?
I am close friends with an entomologist who worked for the “world health organization”, in Kenya and Rhodesia, in the 70’s through 2005. He saw some of the first cases of AIDS coming out of SA in the 80’s, as well as other parts of the continent. When not assisting in the amelioration of malaria and cholera, he was compiling a dossier, with a half dozen case studies on natives, who were infected with the aids virus. Poor devils were dying by the dozen, with no end in sight! With the advent of better drugs over the past quarter century, few people die from this disease process, unless they are unfortunate enough to not have access to these life saving drugs, which effectively pin down the growth process while inhabiting the host. Truly ghastly disease…watching these poor buggers, waste away, was most unsettling to my friend…he felt helpless at times as a scientist and microbiologist , yet he played a successful role in becoming a resource bridge to much needed drugs , in some of the most remote areas of the continent. The wages of sin are death…we reap what we sow.
The Courage Workshop for priests and deacons in Sacramento is a skillful counter-move by Bishop Soto to Saint Francis of Assisi Parish, which has recently begun a series of controversial LGBTQ meetings. The Courage Outreach is orthodox on homosexuality and will promote orthodoxy across the Diocese. How the same bishop who brought us the Courage Workshop could have hosted in the Cathedral an interfaith service orchestrated by John A. Perez, the pro-abort, openly “gay” Speaker of the State Assembly, remains a mystery (and a disappointment) to me.
So, “good cause’ has it all figured out for us. Pope benedict was, and I can agree with it, a “exceptionally bright and holy man” but “WAY OVER HIS HEAD….AS POPE DURING A TIME OF TURMOIL”, really? I don’t think so. He made many profoundly astute observations as Pope about the society which surrounds ALL OF US in this early 21st century which were mainly IGNORED by said society and era which, in ‘good cause’s’ view, did so because Pope Benedict was “a philosopher at a time the Vatican needed an astute business ceo,…..public relations crisis manager and a ‘POSITIVE CHANGE AGENT,’ ” are you kidding me? Sounds like a wish list drawn up by a R.I.N.O. Republican hedge fund manager. And where did the HOLY SPIRIT fit in with this wish list? Isn’t HE the main PERSON that the good Cardinals should be praying to, HE being the ANIMATOR of the Father and the Son? And it would appear that He answered by giving us Pope Francis, a most UNCOMMON common man, so to speak, full of simplicity, humility and grace. But above all, I believe THE HOLY SPIRIT gave us a Pope who’s HOLY. Because in this epoch we find ourselves living through, which is rampant with overwhelming aspects of St Augustine’s brilliant aphorism, “THE WORLD, THE FLESH AND THE DEVIL”, we especially need a HOLY POPE. THAT’S the trump card that might finally turn around this besieged Western Civilization BACK to the grace so sorely needed in order to renew and re-invigorate it. GOD BLESS ALL, MARKRITE
Robert Mugabe is a Catholic…like myself…he has been in power since 1980…and started out pretty well, showing more restraint then most imagined, fir the first few years of hi presidency…due in large part because he was utterly clueless how to run a nation, and relied on the farmers union and other skilled, educated Rhodesians, to aid in the development of the infrastructure of Zimbabwe. He has become a true monster since the early 90’s, slaughtering his countrymen as if they were diseased cattle, infected with rinderpest!… and as far as I can ascertain, is the only man to ever have a knighthood revoked!…shocking, positively shocking! Yet this is nothing compared to the reign of terror and fear he has inculcated his countrymen with…a dread feeling of terror stalks this blighted land…and once this “wanker” is dead, the noble citizens of this great land and nation can become citizens of the world again…RGM is the closest thing to Hitler the world has seen, since the death of Pol Pot…Mugabe is worse, because Zim feels and looks stable, with all the comforts of a first world nation…until you realize nothing works…the system is broken, and the only thing in abundance is terror, amply provided by the members of Zanu-PF…pray for ZIM
Proud Rhodesian, thank you for sharing your knowledge of the situation in this sad land for us. It is a great tragedy that Robert Mugabe turned into such an evil man. It is hard for me to understand why God has allowed this horrible man to live so long. It may be wrong to wish for the death of someone but I hope that God takes him soon so that Zimbabwe can begin to heal from the nightmare that this man brought to this beautiful nation. May God bless and protect the good people of Zimbabwe.
Malachi 2:17: You have wearied the Lord with your words, and you said: Wherein have we wearied him? In that you say: Every one that doth evil, is good in the sight of the Lord, and such please him: or surely where is the God of judgment?
Let us not set ourselves up as the judge of God. He is not a tottering old fool. Nor is he absent.
“Be a man among men the Rhodesian Army” I knew a guy in Legion who was in the R.A. one the bravest guys I have ever met….
Exceptionally brave warriors: I’ve met some. I have no idea how they did what they did.
I actually took some time to read some of the articles on Courage’s site last night. I probably wasn’t the best thing to do as it left me feeling depressed. It seems that they don’t care for the term gay and prefer the somewhat demeaning “same sex attracted” which I feel reduces a person to an attraction. Some of what I read seems to encourage dishonesty, if you lie to yourself long enough maybe you will start to believe it. I think the Courage organization is in a state of change and they are more and more becoming tied to NARTH. I think becoming a mouthpiece for NARTH turns off many people because NARTH has a very negative view of gay people and this group reinforces negative stereotypes about gay people that were commonly believed 50 or more years ago but which most people now realize are false and simplifications. In regard to Encourage it seems that this group encourages people in the hope that their son or daughter will one day turn into a heterosexual if the parent prays hard enough for this to happen.
Labeling oneself as “gay” puts one in the gay agenda camp, which is to make sodomy and other sexual mortal sins, acceptable.
‘Same-sex attraction’ is correct verbiage to save the eternal Souls of those with SSA.
Whether it’s same sex attraction or heterosexual attraction, sexual activity outside of marriage (between one man and one women) is a MORTAL SIN.
Mark from PA – do you acknowledge this?
The goal is not to change people’s orientation, but to insure they get to Heaven.
CCC: ” 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity . By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
Miike please. The Church does not have naming rights over people. The church invented the term SSA a few years ago. It never needed to coin such a term until then, and most church documents don’t even use the term.
False theology once again, YFC. The Church does indeed have “naming rights” over the faithful. Jesus says (and Jesus and the Church are united) that each soul has a name known only to Him and will learn this name. So, YFC, in order to learn the name Jesus has for you, you have to persuade Him to teach you. This is done through the Church.
I’m quite confident that Jesus’ name for me is not SSA
Mike, gay is a commonly used term. “Same sex attraction” is a term that was coined by NARTH. Before I came to this news site I never even heard of that term. Where I live the term is not even used. I have never heard a person use this term in speech. You say that labeling oneself as gay puts one in the gay agenda camp but people don’t really get to choose their orientation. I suppose all people are called to chastity. I would prefer if CCC 2359 used the term “close friendships” instead of “disinterested friendship.” I don’t know if this is translated from another language but who wants “disinterested friends”?
PA, the use of the word ‘disinterested’ is found elsewhere in the Catechism. Note that its meaning in these contexts agrees with the alternative meaning i.e “free from selfish motive or interest”. Take the time to look it up.
2649 Prayer of praise is entirely disinterested and rises to God, lauds him, and gives him glory for his own sake, quite beyond what he has done, but simply because HE IS.
2279 Even if death is thought imminent, the ordinary care owed to a sick person cannot be legitimately interrupted. The use of painkillers to alleviate the sufferings of the dying, even at the risk of shortening their days, can be morally in conformity with human dignity if death is not willed as either an end or a means, but only foreseen and tolerated as inevitable. Palliative care is a special form of disinterested charity. As such it should be encouraged.
Would you construe the meaning of ‘disinterested’ in these examples to have the same sense as you make with homosexuality i.e, ‘not interested’? Or, are these usages in the Catechism more in line with the alternative meaning, i.e “free from selfish motive or interest”? If these are more in line with the alternative meaning, why not the same for the homosexuality Catechism passage?
Also, as noted previously, this alternate meaning is more in line with the Gospel teaching on love.
Perhaps you need to re-evaluate your repeated attempts to pervert the Catechism’s meaning of the word ‘disinterested’ in these forums. .
Please stop leading others astray by inviting them to infer the Catechism’s meaning of disinterested is the same as your improper understanding.
PA, a further example of the Church’s meaning of ‘disinterested’ could be found in its usage in Persona Humana.
“It is important in particular that everyone should have a high esteem for the virtue of chastity, its beauty and its power of attraction. This virtue increases the human person’s dignity and enables him to love truly, disinterestedly, unselfishly and with respect for others”
Homosexuals need to strive to better understand Church teaching in regards to human sexuality.
Mark, I know, simply know, that you are smart enough to know, not merely suppose, that all people are called to chastity according to their states in life. May God bless you.
PA, if you’d like to learn other phrases and words associated with “gay”, then google up some of the lexicon so expertly and accurately used by “The Gunny”. And don’t gimme no namby pamby reply, just look it up and enrich your wealth of knowledge on the topic.
” In regard to Encourage it seems that this group encourages people in the hope that their son or daughter will one day turn into a heterosexual if the parent prays hard enough for this to happen.” It would seen you disagree with this PA, it would not surprise me if that was the case.
Canisius – Prayer is not effective at changing people’s orientation. I won’t say never ever because I wouldn’t want to box God in like that – but I would just say that most gay Christians have tried to pray away the gay and we know that the answer that we get back is ” I love you as I created you.”
YFC, He may love you the way he created you, do you love him enough to obey His will. ??? I know I do….with frequent confession
With His help I believe I do. He has counted the number of hairs on my head. He has extended his arms for me. He has gone to the depths of the grave for me and come out victorious.
Anonymous, did He tell you how many hairs were on your head? I’m guessing it took Him longer to count yours than mine.
YFC, are you saying God created your homosexuality? If so, what is your evidence that God created your homosexuality? Why would He condemn homosexual acts as sinful?
Kaves1, as you well know God does not create anything disordered,
Yes kaves1, God created me and all of me, not just the parts of me that you happen to like.
Aha, YFC. Finally you come out with your false theology. God did not create your vanity, which you exercise in the gay defiance. God created you, but you were created under the effects of original sin. God loves the souls He creates but this does not mean He love the effects of original sin on these souls. This is why Jesus came to be crucified and then resurrected, and why He sent the Holy Spirit to bring us into the truth, ie into full union with Him as both God and man. Now I see the roots of your false theology; St Augustine described it, as he described a number of the main errors. No doubt some readers can name it, but I can only point it out. Much of the world holds to this idea that you profess, that there is no need for Jesus’ work on the Cross. I think some would call the error the “noble pagan” philosophy, and that is exactly what you’re doing, trying to make good that which is no good. Just give it up, YFC, become humble enough which means honest enough to give up the gay deceit and turn yourself over to Jesus … look for authenticity and not some soothsayer.
You got all that out of “God made me?” You call Baltimore Catechism “Q.1 Who made me? A. God made me” false theology?
Anonymous, did God create us with an inclination to sin?
“…as I created you”:
He doesn’t love sinful behavior but he loves the person who sins while he sins. He wants the cessation of sin. Because it offends Him and wounds the sinner, whom He loves. He said, “Go now and sin no more.” He did not say, “Go now and desire to sin no more” because He knows fallen man desires sin. He understands our wounded nature but does not condone. Truly the Good Shepherd.
Wrong, Brad. Explain how God sends souls to Hell for sinning if He loves them. You are spouting some kind of Calvinist or Lutheran doctrine that man is completely depraved when you argue that “because He knows fallen man desires sin”. Man has free will; some desire sin, some do not.
Skai, what? Do you really not know these things or is this another one of your “arguments”?
YFC, I don’t think so. You merely assert this. You give no evidence. Nor do you explain why God, thru His Church, and in scripture says homosexual acts are always wrong. This would be inconsistent with your assertion. God created you as his child. What makes more sense and is consistent with Church teaching and Scripture is that the disordered condition of homosexuality is a corruption of God’s created heterosexuality due to Man’s Fall. Death, disease, and all disorders are not God’s doing. They are a consequence of Original Sin. Again, give me evidence that God created homosexuality. Thus far you haven’t.
YFC, excerpts from “LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS”
“In Genesis 3, we find that this truth about persons being an image of God has been obscured by original sin. There inevitably follows a loss of awareness of the covenantal character of the union these persons had with God and with each other. The human body retains its “spousal significance” but this is now clouded by sin.”
and
“The human person, made in the image and likeness of God, can hardly be adequately described by a reductionist reference to his or her sexual orientation. Every one living on the face of the earth has personal problems and difficulties, but challenges to growth, strengths, talents and gifts as well. Today, the Church provides a badly needed context for the care of the human person when she refuses to consider the person as a “heterosexual” or a “homosexual” and insists that every person has a fundamental Identity: the creature of God, and by grace, his child and heir to eternal life.”
I have no evidence that God created anything at all. I only have faith.
Anonymous, by evidence I would include Scripture and Church teaching not necessarily scientific evidence. There is evidence in Scripture that God created heterosexuality. He created them man and woman and told them to be fruitful. I see no such creation for homosexuality. Indeed, I only see condemnation of homosexual behaviour in both the Old and New Testaments.
YFC, by “orientation” no doubt you mean your will. Yes, prayer can help you to change your will. And thus you would never again have to stick with one or another orientation aka role, but would be free to be yourself and develop into the person God intends you to be.
Skai, when I say orientation, I mean the gender to which one is primarily attracted. Most people, indeed the Church, make no claim that sexual orientation can be changed through prayer or psychology.
YFC, you always sound like a robot instead of someone free to express themselves plainly and simply.
Mark, I’ve been part of a large ENCOURAGE online network for about 7 years, and I can honestly tell you that hoping our loved ones “turn into a heterosexual” is NOT our priority. Rather, it is that they learn to live authentically chaste happy lifestyles by embracing the full teachings of Holy Mother Church. One of COURAGE/ENCOURAGE’s shortcomings-and their leaders admit this themselves-is that in the 30+ years of their existence, they haven’t done that well in making their media as widely available as it could be. But that is about to change, as by the end of the year they are about to launch THE COURAGE MEDIA PROJECT which will make the testimonies of their members (in written, audio and video form) more widely available. Then it will become more widely evident the many joys that the members of this program have come to experience in their lives. In the mean time, if you visit AirMaria’s Youtube channel, you can hear the personal testimonies of about a half a dozen Courage members. One particular one that I believe you’d really like is from a man named Karl.
Raphael, Mark from PA main priority is the acceptance by the Church of the gay lifestyle cloaked in his own verbiage.
You may believe what you wish. 12-steps work wonders in reigning-in the desire for pleasure. Over time any habit of sin can be overcome. Duh.
Fellow Catholics, please let’s not use the word “orientation” when speaking of same-sex attraction (SSA) or practicing and/or promoting “homosexuality” (PPH). “Orientation” suggests (to many people) something that is intrinsic, a part of our make-up. Rather, let’s be precise when we speak of the same-sex attraction. God is not the author of same sex feelings. It is something learned, not something that is part of our soul. Yes, we understand that if a person has SSA they have not typically chosen those feelings. They are to be instructed and redirected away from the dis-“orientation”, at an early age. If someone acts on those feelings it is a choice to commit something we were not designed to do. The sexual choices are always sinful. We can’t let the secular mindset cause confusion by how it encourages the use of benign labels for feelings and behaviors they won’t admit the truth about. We must know the truth about the differences, and affirm these truths when we have discussions about the subjects of SSA and PPH. The feelings are disordered, but not sinful, and the choice to act on those feelings is a sin, period. I, too, am a proponent of the Courage and EnCourage apostolate. I am so encouraged to see them in the diocese of Sacramento. I am interested in the new Courage Media Project.
What you “understand” is a misunderstanding. People do not choose their attractions. Even the Church agrees that the homosexual orientation is not a chosen one, any more than is the heterosexual orientation.
I think you may have misunderstood Barb, who said people do not choose to have homo affectionate feelings. If you meant that one is attracted to what one feels, it would be correct although acting on those feelings would not be correct if they lead to sin and there the church would agree.
YFC, you say “Even the Church agrees that the homosexual orientation is ”
Show me authoritative Church document that uses the word “orientation” in references to homosexuality. thankyou
kaves1 on the Vatican’s own website, you will find documents like “LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS”, which use orientation to describe the tendency of people to be attracted to others of a certain gender. THere are others, but this is not a bad place to start!
YFC, The homosexual orientation is not a fundamental identity given by God. You use the word orientation as a tool of equivalency to say that God created heterosexuals and homosexuals. You said that God created homosexuality and you describe people using the term orientation. God did not create homosexuality. I see no evidence of this in scripture or Church teaching. You have not provided any evidence that God created homosexuality. I do see statements in catechisms where it is said that God created us; I believe the fundamental identity reflected in the Pastoral document is what is being referenced in the catechism statements. But I see nothing saying God created homosexuality. I do see statements in Scripture that God created man and woman to be fruitful. I see no passages saying God created homosexuality. Nor do you reconcile your belief with Scripture where it says homosexual behavior is wrong. Original Sin is a quite plausible explanation for the existence of homosexuality and so far have chosen not to comment on that. Is this because what Skai suggested is true?
Well, Barb, this is the first time I ever heard of the expression PPH, that is a new one for me. Orientation is a fairly common term and a person’s sexuality is usually an intrinsic part of a person’s make up. You made an interesting comment that God is not the source of our feelings and perhaps you are correct about this.
PA, this is what two popes have said about orientation. This is from “LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS”
PA, why do you persist in your deceit? You are going to have to answer to God for it.
“The human person, made in the image and likeness of God, can hardly be adequately described by a reductionist reference to his or her sexual orientation. Every one living on the face of the earth has personal problems and difficulties, but challenges to growth, strengths, talents and gifts as well. Today, the Church provides a badly needed context for the care of the human person when she refuses to consider the person as a “heterosexual” or a “homosexual” and insists that every person has a fundamental Identity: the creature of God, and by grace, his child and heir to eternal life.”
kavesi This document is not denying that there is such a thing as sexual orientation. This is clear from the totality of the document. What it is saying in the paragraph that you quote is something I think is truly profound: a person, regardless of sexual orientation, cannot be totally described, identified, or “boxed in” (to use modern lingo) by a categorization of their sexual orientation. This is quite true and quite profound. It is saying that just because someone is gay, don’t assume that that tells you very much about the person. Just because a person is straight, THAT doesn’t tell you very much about the person. I agree completely with the document in this regard. But the document is NOT saying that there is no such thing as homosexual (or heterosexual) orientation.
I agree with you, Your Fellow Catholic. What you say is true. We are all creatures of God and by grace, His child and heir to eternal life. You quoted this Kaves1 but also said, what is this, “you are going to have to answer to God for it”? It seems you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth here.
YFC, you totally missed the idea in the papal letter. Your post was not even close to demonstrating any understanding. In order for you to understand these things, you will have to renounce your sin of homosexuality.
Yes, but only in a negative sense. It refuses to categorize people as you have done. You describe someone by there sexual orientation.
“The human person, made in the image and likeness of God, can hardly be adequately described by a reductionist reference to his or her sexual orientation. Every one living on the face of the earth has personal problems and difficulties, but challenges to growth, strengths, talents and gifts as well. Today, the Church provides a badly needed context for the care of the human person when she refuses to consider the person as a “heterosexual” or a “homosexual” and insists that every person has a fundamental Identity: the creature of God, and by grace, his child and heir to eternal life.”
I believe it is you who uses sexual orientation to support your notion that that is what God created – sexual orientation. Yet in your statement above you come closer to identiifying what God actually created – a child of God (not a homosexual or a heterosexual). You undercut your own view (that God created homosexuality)’ You cannot use sexual orientation to support your notion that God created homosexuality as you have done. The existence of homosexuality is quite explainable in terms of Original Sin. The CCC says God created our souls (immediately upon conception), however when it comes to our human nature it says “Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice.”
YFC, you still have not explained how your notion that God created homosexuality reconciles with Scriptures injunctions against homosexual behavior. Why would God make homosexuality but say not to practice homosexual acts. Please explain.
In Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, in the course of describing the conditions necessary for belonging to the Chosen People, the author excludes from the People of God those who behave in a homosexual fashion.
in I Cor 6:9, he proposes the same doctrine and lists those who behave in a homosexual fashion among those who shall not enter the Kingdom of God.
1 Tim. 1, in full continuity with the Biblical position, singles out those who spread wrong doctrine and in v. 10 explicitly names as sinners those who engage in homosexual acts.
It seems by reading the document both YFC and PA are coming to a better understanding of what God created – a child of God. That is what the document is saying. You cannot say that God created homosexuality as both YFC and PA have said in the past. You are making progress PA and YFC.
Concupiscence is not sin. It does not offend God. The inclination to sin is not a sin. Temptation is not a sin. These are occasions of merit for man. They do not offend God.
PPH as described by Barb and the term GID (gender identity disorder) are terms used mostly right now in the Encourage forum community and perhaps other circles and are not universally used by the couragerc.net apostolate. Courage uses SSA but elaborates by calling it same sex attracted. The acronyms PPH and GID and SSA are terms that indicate where one is on the scale of one’s homo-affectionate feelings. Other more secular promoters choose more letters of the alphabet to describe where they are coming from but the above mentioned are in our Catholic lexicon for description of homosexuality. Hope that helps.
But these are not particularly helpful abbreviations, and here is why: Take SSA. Both a homosexual and a bisexual have SSA. Both a heterosexual and a bisexual have OSA. So instead of just saying gay, bi, straight, which is very clear to most people, one has to have designations like SSA/non-OSA for straight, SSA+ OSA for bi, and non-SSA/OSA for straight. It’s quite absurd, really.
PPH is even more problematic. Is a straight person in favor of same allowing same sex couples to obtain marriage licenses a PPH ? Is a gay person who is celibate/chaste but is in favor of marriage licenses PPH? Is a bisexual person in an opposite sex relationship a PPH?
This is a crazy reinvention of words whose only purpose is to control the minds of people, rather than an attempt at a better articulation of something in the human experience.
Barb you are correct.. I appreciate your words of truth!
I chose it, the lifestyle, as I had the early practice. It was easy to get satisfied and not having to worry about pregnancy.
I left the lifestyle 5 years ago, accepting the teaching authority of the Church.
John when you say you left the “lifestyle”, does that mean that you don’t go to brunch with friends after Mass on Sunday?
YFC you are typical of the gay leftist with snide comments. I don’t know who Mr. Siple is, I will say this he was able to recognize and leave behind a sinful lifestyle and conform his life to the Will of Christ.. You on the other hand claim to be a “faithful” catholic but I am willing to bet that you are neck deep in the lifestyle Mr. Siple left (yes I mean wanton sodomy) He is a better Catholic than you could ever hope to be, and probably better than me as well. Though my cross to carry is anger and hate…. both are fulfilling though
YFC, Why are you bullying John?
people choose many habitual sins–but they are still sins.