The following comes from a May 19 story in First Things by R. R. Reno.
I know it rankles, but I’m afraid it’s a fact, one we need to acknowledge if we’re to think clearly about our ecumenical commitments. Protestantism doesn’t figure in the way Catholics think about the future of Catholicism.
That’s what I found myself thinking on April 29th. I was in La Mirada, California to attend “The Future of Protestantism,” an event devoted to discussing Peter Leithart’s provocative claim that Protestantism’s historical role is ending and should give way to “Reformational Catholicism.”
Peter Liethart, Fred Sanders, and Carl Trueman gave forceful opening speeches, reminding me that Protestants know how to give real power to the spoken word. The discussion following was substantive. Classical Protestant themes of justification by faith, assurance of salvation, and sola scriptura came to the fore. It was quite an evening. Real theology. Really debated.
Very engaging, to say the least. But as a Catholic—probably the only one in attendance—I didn’t have a dog in this fight. So I found myself free to muse and reflect. What, I wondered, would Catholics talk about in a debate about the future of Catholicism?
Many things, I’m sure, but I don’t think we’d talk about Protestantism. That’s quite different from what happened at The Future of Protestantism. Catholicism was part of the discussion from the outset, either as the reality being fused together with Protestantism (Leithart) or as the compromised form of Christianity to be critiqued (Trueman).
As Leithart put it in the provocative column that spurred the folks at Biola to plan the event (“The End of Protestantism”), “Protestantism is a negative theology; a Protestant is a not-Catholic.” Protestants don’t let man-made traditions usurp the Word of God. They don’t worship idols, don’t make salvation depend on their own efforts, don’t let the Virgin Mary replace Christ as our mediator, and so on. There’s a need for negation in the DNA of Protestantism, so much so that they often aim their “don’ts” at each other.
Catholicism is different in this regard. The Church polices the boundaries of orthodoxy, of course. This requires negations, as the delicious denunciations of the Syllabus of Errors illustrate. But in the main Catholics tend to see the Church as self-sufficient, a world unto itself. Most Protestants sense this, and it can be very irritating to them.
I can imagine a speaker at a “Future of Catholicism” conference discussing the ways in which Pentecostalism in South America puts great pressure on the Church. Protestantism is obviously part of the world in which the Church finds herself. Moreover, the Church has an ecumenical vocation, and that requires engaging Protestantism. But on the whole when Catholics discuss or debate the future of Catholicism the issues are almost always intramural.
George Weigel’s Evangelical Catholicism illustrates. Weigel thoroughly endorses the Christ-centered approach that Protestantism, at its best, so clearly emphasizes. Moreover, I’m sure Weigel thinks evangelical Catholicism will be enriched if it draws upon the witness of Evangelical evangelicals. But by his accounting we should understand evangelical Catholicism as an evolution from within the life of the Church herself—not as something that depends upon an engagement with Protestantism.
By my reading the Second Vatican Council takes a similar approach. Without doubt Protestantism had a significant and positive influence on the Council. Worship in the vernacular and renewed emphasis on the Word of God—these are the most obvious examples. There are many others as well. But the documents of Vatican II mention no Protestant sources. For the bishops who gathered in Rome fifty years ago, the future of Catholicism was to emerge from within Holy Mother Church.
To read the entire story, click here.
Protestantism is theological heresy. How can theological heresy figure in the way Catholics think about the future of Catholicism, Mr. Reno?
All of Protestantism is no heresy. They believe in the Divinity of and Humanity of Christ. They believe in Baptism as the forgiveness of Sins. They believe in the Holy Spirit, etc. etc. etc.
While they may believe in some, maybe even many things that the Catholic Church calls heretical, this cannot be said of the entirety of their belief. To ignore this is to ignore the Truth present in their faith.
Thank you for your gentleness. Maybe it’s just a matter of semantics, but for me their truths are Catholic truths. The rest is heresy, which is what I meant.
Protestantism in itself is heresy, St. Peter, and spoils the whole. Much like it only takes one mortal sin to be condemned. Any truth that subsides in the Protestant Churches is that which was taken from the Catholic Church. It is not the Protestant ‘Faith’ per se.
We need to be cautious when thinking and discussing ecumenism. Look what Vatican II did for the Catholic Church. They’re still trying to repair the disastrous changes made to the Mass. A simple solution would be to return to the Latin Mass. They took the kneelers out of most churches, eliminated the altar rails, removed statues and candles in most parishes, now require only one hour of fasting before Mass (anything longer would be too rigorous), added Protestant-style hymns (which most people don’t sing), the list is endless. Did Protestants come flocking to the Church? No, but vast numbers of Catholics left the Church.
Ironically, many Protestant churches still have altar rails and receive communion kneeling, even though they do not have the real presence. Talk about turning things on their head! They give more respect to a piece of bread than we Catholics give to the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord.
Sarah, I came to the Church. I came because of the reforms of Vatican II. So before you go all screeching on an Ecumenical Council, you need to understand its import for our Church and its future.
“Screeching” on an Ecumenical Council? Ouch.
Sarah, numbers left the Church not because of the changes, but because the changes didn’t go far enough. And now you all want to go back to latin masses. You won’t get pews filled that way, if that is your goal. Speak the language of the people. Not just the English language, the language of those who struggle to build a family, put food on their table, provide for their parents, live a decent life. Speak THEIR language, and the pews will be full once again.
75% of self-identified Catholics attended weekly Mass in 1960, now it’s only 25%. As Amchurch became so much a facsimile of so many Protestant sects, many people wandered out the door because they no longer saw anything unique about it. It’s quite possible many of those people wanted doctrinal discipline on sexual morals to be as loosey-goosey as the Mass had become. So yes, in that sense many people possibly left because the changes didn’t go far enough (the changes didn’t infect the unchangeable Magisterial teachings – surprise, surprise). Oh well, it was good they left. They have some 60,000 Protestant sects to choose from. If they don’t like one of those, there’s no restriction against starting more! No, the Catholic objective is not to fill the pews. We have free will. It’s always been an obedience religion. Some people don’t like that. They should go elsewhere. It’s really tough to understand why dissenters insist so much on staying in the Church but simultaneously insist on trying to change it. Do they not get that the reason the changes don’t happen is that the Church really is guarded by the Holy Spirit? Is their conscience just nagging at them that the Catholic Church really is the one true Church? Yet they think it should change according to THEIR opinion? After a while they just start sounding absurd. The first step to reconciliation is humility. Each person needs to accept that they are not God, and each person needs to pick up their Cross, and we all have one.
If the People of God listen to the movement of the Holy Spirit in our lives, it may be that from time to time changes are necessary. This was the whole point of the Second Vatican Council. It is, what our Pope Francis means when he refers to discernment, a word that we treasured as I was growing in the faith, but which seemed to get lost in the zeal for conformity.
There is a difference between blindly following a doctrine formed before there were proper understandings of a thing in the psychological and biological worlds, and asking the Church to discern what those new findings mean in light of faith.
Hisssssssss. Wormtongue speaks! ” discern what those NEW findings mean in light of faith” …which is newspeak for “You surely will not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from {the tree of knowledge} your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil”. Odd that after 2000 yrs. we have all this new knowledge, isn’t it? The truth of God never changes from generation to generation…homosexuality, as has been pointed out here too many times to count, is, was and ever shall be a grave sin. All the lies we may tell ourselves about it being okay if properly understood and with new psycho babble and junk science to back it up, is just so much self-delusion. But then, in your heart of hearts, you know that or you wouldn’t keep harping and harping on the same topic like some kind of mantra until you hope it comes true, if you just keep playing the same record and putting your fingers in your ears and a blindfold on your eyes. I hope I”m not sounding mean spirited because I’m not feeling that way at all…I confess I really care about you and truly have your best interests at heart. God bless.
retrospective you said “It’s really tough to understand why dissenters insist so much on staying in the Church but simultaneously insist on trying to change it.”
I would say that those dissenters you refer to truly HATE the Catholic Church and Her faithful children, while those who leave Her for protestant sects ‘typically’ misunderstand Her or find themselves too weak to bear Her or Her faithful children.
I couldn’t agree more, Tracy.
YFC – speak their language.
But never support their sin.
Who ever said I was supporting sin, Pat? The Church has a long history of mistaking science for sin, and it has learned some difficult lessons about mistaking the two.
YFC, tisk, tisk, Pat NEVER said that you were supporting sin, but YOU did! :(
People who choose to be Catholic adhere in entirety to the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” which contains the “Doctrine of the Faith”.
CINO’s – ‘Catholics in name only’, and non-Catholics do not.
They believe whatever they want.
There are really only 3 kinds of Catholics: Faithful Catholics; Catholic heretics; and Catholic schismatics.
(‘Conservative’ and ‘liberal’ persons are misnomers, and there is no such thing regarding our Faith. You will not find this in the CCC.)
We should all use the correct terminology for accuracy.
Based upon Church definitions, Catholic’s should identify themselves properly.
CCC: ” 2089 INCREDULITY is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it.
HERESY is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;
APOSTACY is the total repudiation of the Christian faith;
SCHISM is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”
“….. let us ask ourselves if we have actually taken a few steps to get to know Christ and the truths of faith more, by reading and meditating on the Scriptures, studying the Catechism, steadily approaching the Sacraments.” – Pope Francis, May 15, 2013.
Thank you Andrew for your informative post.
Protestants and non-Catholics have many misconceptions about our Catholic Faith. Look at the errors made by the Protestants in this article alone.
“There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic Church. ….As a matter of fact, if we Catholics believed all of the untruths and lies which were said against the Church, we probably would hate the Church a thousand times more than they do.” – Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen
The CCC was written for everyone –
“….the CATECHISM has raised throughout the world, even among non-Christians, and confirms its purpose of being presented as a full, complete exposition of Catholic doctrine, enabling everyone to know what the Church professes, celebrates, lives, and prays in her daily life.” – Pope John Paul II (CCC pg xiv)
Encourage non-Catholics to read it for the truth about our Catholic Faith.
Protestants who read the CCC with an open mind – as to what the Catholic Church teaches – in many cases are converting.
Their false ideas about our Faith vanish.
Watch the video on this site from Dr. Scott Hahn (a former Protestant himself)for a better explanation.
“What Catholics REALLY Believe SOURCE” https://whatcatholicsreallybelieve.com/
I read the CCC, and returned to the Faith.
The Catholic Church is the Church that Christ founded.
JESUS said: “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.” Mt 16:18
JESUS was not a liar.
Reformational Catholicism? As opposed to separatist Protestantism? From my view, our separated brethren seem to enjoy the separation and the freedom to associate with others of their kind. Most of my contact with Protestants comes from our joint collaboration in the prolife movement. At every chance, they splinter off into their own separate organizations and break away from “mainline pro life efforts” in order to achieve this separatism. I sure wish we could all be one but this is not even possible within the church where some Catholic Parishes are at odds with the teachings of our church and prefer to go their own separate way. Father, that we all may be one. Wouldn’t the world be splendid if we bonded together as the Body of Christ and called to task the “protestant” Catholics in our midst such as Pelosi, Kerry and others who have a cafeteria style approach to the faith. We need each other. Now.+
Christ prayed to the Father for unity and send the Apostles to go out and teach/preach the Truth – whole and entire – and to Baptize all nations. Too many folks seem to get caught up in the notion that WE are somehow to manufacture unity instead of praying for it as a boon from the Father for sacrificing even as Christ did for the actual FAITH.
They use the ‘that we might be one’ as an excuse to not teach what the Church teaches. To condone error.
If Catholics were faithful to death and willing to be martyred for the Faith, that would be rewarded from above. The so called ecumenical watering down the Truth nonsense will only produce a lack of Faith making God’s people ripe for chastisement. Which is precisely what we are.
God have mercy!
Ann Malley, this reminds me, we all need to pray for the Orthodox Christian woman who has been harshly imprisoned and sentenced to flogging and hanging for refusing to accept Islam. She just gave birth to her baby girl inside her prison cell and her captors are now refusing to release the baby to her American husband.
Here is what Meriam Ibrahim told her husband’ “I refuse to change. I am not giving up Christianity just so that I can live. I know I could stay alive by becoming a Muslim and I would be able to look after our family, but I need to be true to myself.”
https://www.lifenews.com/2014/05/27/meriam-ibrahim-pregnant-christian-woman-sentenced-to-death-gives-birth-to-baby-girl/
Tracy we need to pray for her. It is a very sad story. Why isn’t Obama doing something about it? Oh yes why do I even ask!
One of the Sheep,
It was our Catholic insistence on praying the Rosary at the Operation Rescue events that brought many non-Catholics into the Faith. Please explain your above remarks better. You might call that “separatism”!
May God have mercy on an amoral Amerika!
Viva Cristo Rey!
Yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Let us remember the second commandment of Jesus:
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Mt 22:39)
He did NOT say – love only those who believe as we do.
John said to JESUS: , “Teacher, we saw a man casting out demons in your name,and we forbade him, because he was not following us.”
But JESUS said, “Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is for us.” Mk 9:38-40.
We must NEVER TOLERATE SIN.
This is not loving our neighbor.
Three of the Spiritual Works of Mercy are: Admonishing sinners; Instructing the Uninformed; Counselling the Doubtful.
” Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it.
It does penance for the sins of others, but it is not broadminded about sin.
The cry for tolerance never induces it to quench its hatred of the evil
philosophies that have entered into contest with the Truth.
It forgives the sinner, and it hates the sin; it is unmerciful to the error in his
mind.
The sinner it will always take back into the bosom of the Mystical Body;
but his lie will never be taken into the treasury of His Wisdom.
Real love involves real hatred:
whoever has lost the power of moral indignation and the urge to drive the
buyers and sellers from the temples
has also lost a living, fervent love of Truth.
Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of “live and let live”;
it is not a species of sloppy sentiment.
Charity is the infusion of the Spirit of God,
which makes us love the beautiful and hate the morally ugly. ” –
Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen
What does the word PROTESTANT mean? It means protesting, or being against something. And what are they against? THE CATHOLIC CHURCH! And a branch of Protestantism is the REFORMED church. And what are they reforming? They thought the Anglican (Episcopal) church was too CATHOLIC. Ever since God created everything, there has been a rebellion against authority. Lucifer, the greatest archangel, said I WILL NOT SERVE! People want to be their own popes, and want no one to tell them about morality or about things theological. The reformation period should be termed DESTRUCTION. The real reformation was the counter-reformation which the Council of Trent began.
Father Karl excellent comments!
When there was a sharp and distinct difference between the Catholic Church and the Protestant ones, the Catholic Church gained many converts. Now that both faiths are practically the same, hardly anyone is converting. Why change faiths when there is no real difference between them? In fact, more people are leaving the Catholic Church because of the drastic and revolutionary reforms brought about by Vatican II. The second most popular religion in the Northern Hemisphere is FORMER CATHOLICS. They are joining atheists, Jehovah Witnesses, Protestants, Jews, Buddhists, and other false faiths. Remember the television program HOGAN’S HEROES? Well, John Banner and Werner Klemperer were both born Jewish, and then converted to Catholicism. After Vatican II, they resorted back to their Jewish faith before they died. As has been mentioned before, if there is NO difference between religions, and everyone is going to Heaven, why bother being a Catholic where one has rules and obligations., and a moral code to adhere to.
You must adhere to the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” because it contains the Doctrine of the Faith – –
no matter what anyone says;
no matter what anyone does;
no matter what reports you hear in the media.
For quotes from our Popes (Saint JPII, Benedict, and Francis) regarding the CCC on the net go to:
“What Catholics REALLY Believe SOURCE” –
https://whatcatholicsreallybelieve.com/
Pilar, you said, “When there was a sharp and distinct difference between the Catholic Church and the Protestant ones, the Catholic Church gained many converts.” This is still true today! Let me explain. I have met a few converts to the Church who were converted by watching EWTN or reading other faithful Catholic documents. These individuals are typically shocked, however, when they show up to your average RCIA program and/or see what is going on at Mass in their local parish. They do not see the Mass or altar as represented on EWTN in these parishes. More than once I have heard a convert say to me, there really is no difference between my parish and the protestants, this is not what I was expecting at all!!!!!!
My husband is a convert and my husband says that there is a huge difference. We have the Eucharist and the wholeness of the truth, they have some of the truths through scripture etc but not the Eucharist. My husband was also impressed on how we show reverence when we attend Mass, in his old Protestant church they never showed reverence because they did not have the Eucharist. It was just as if they were going to a show or something to make them feel good about themselves. So no matter what people think, there is a difference and the truth is that when we all die and if we make it to heaven, then we are all Catholic Christians in Heaven! The good Lord does use even protestants for His purpose but it does not take away the truth about Christ, Peter (The Rock in which Christ’ build His Catholic church).
Abeca, thank you for sharing your husband’s story. It seems to differ from several of the converts I have spoken too.
Tracy I’m sure it does. My husband doesn’t like the abuses in the church either. He knows that. Like with any faithful, cradle Catholic or convert, sometimes we get discouraged but it still does not take away the truth that our Lord is with His church. Who was it that said that we have a perfect church but as soon as we have people running it, then that is when it is no longer perfect but the truth is still there. Our imperfection does not overrule or change the truth, our sins do not rule out the truth.
Christ came to save us and Christ is still with us. Well you know the rest.
Despite what some defenders of modernism claim, looking across the last nearly 50 years we can truly see the fruits of V2. There is no denying it, especially to those senior citizens who have seen it all happen before their very eyes and watched the implosion if they still remember the way it was back in the days of Pope Pius the XIIth. The changes have been so drastic, far surpassing even what Martin Luther did leading to his excommunication, and for what reason? Unwillingness to accept authority of the Chair of St. Peter, the Vicar of Christ. Unwillingness to please God and prefer to lead sinful lives instead of picking up our crosses and following Christ as He said. How can a great body of hundreds of millions of people change so drastically in less than a life time? Easily, without receiving sanctifying grace on a frequent basis. Sanctifying grace gives us the ability, strength, and courage to rely completely on God, trusting Him, loving Him, and putting Him first before all other things! National polls taken in the past show 2/3rds of modern catholics do not believe in the true presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist. Why is that? What if that poll(s) is true? Than how could that have happened? All Fact, ask a devout Roman Catholic senior citizen with a sharp memory to recall how all of the sacraments were radically changed after V2, changed beyond Luther’s compositions. Grab an old Roman Catholic Missal from Pope Pius the XIIth time frame, you’ll be amazed at how all the prayers in the 7 Holy Sacaments have been changed or removed.
James, IF they nolonger believe in transubstantiation, then they are only fooling themselves, thinking of themselves of being Roman Catholic, and they have no right to deceive those remaining Catholics with their liberal ideas to further change the Roman Catholic Church in a manner that they prefer. You might say the devil is misleading them. May God, Blessed Mother, and St. Joseph protect and defend our Roman Catholic Faith, preserve, and restore it through the rosary. By the rosary, anything that is good can happen
Amen to that Patrick! If we look from the beginning of mankind, we know that the fruit of deception has always been around. But the truth still lives on even after V2 and there are many faithful converts. This is not the time to despair or lose hope, actually we are living in times where it can make saints, Martyrs etc. Staying. Persevering with fortitude is what holds the boat together.
Jesus is with us. He is just being held hostage, in His own house, by many enemies. But He will break those enemies and more conversions will come. We must have our eye’s fixed on Jesus. As much as it pains us as to what the enemy is doing to His house, for the sake of the innocent and unsuspecting, we must keep our eye’s fixed on Jesus. The rest God will take care of especially since we have no power over things but we begin with self, because we are responsible with what we do have power over, which was given to us from above. With that comes a moral responsibility.
Our Lord is still with us. Right in the middle of this crises we are having to deal with, with all dissident sinners. I have this in mind. Our Lord was handed over to the soldiers, who at the request of the people, to beat him etc. While they beat Him, spat at Him, whipped him etc. All while this was happening the crowd watched and wanted him crucified. There was His faithful following too, suffering at the sight of how cruel the crowd was to our Lord. I think that our Lord is with us right now also suffering for our sins, for the dissent that is happening in our church. He will not leave our church for the sake of those who are loyal and who persevere in Him. Even if some of His priests are indifferent and not feeding His sheep, He is still with His children who need Him.
We feel and endure many persecutions here on earth, its part of life. That is why we must have our sight fixed on Jesus.
looking back at the lives of saints. How many times have read that many actually felt empty in faith, they suffered when they felt the loss of not feeling Christ with them. How often did some feel dry in their faith.
There is hope. God will guide each of us to Him, all we have to do is ask. He will come through because He would not deprive us of the graces we ask for and stand most in need thereof. He is our Father in Heaven and loves us, far beyond the love of our earthly Father. He feeds the birds of the air and like He said we are greater than they! He will take care of us if we only ask of Him, and be prepared to carry our crosses and follow Him. Don’t be surprised; however where He leads you back to the Roman Catholic faith, to traditional Roman Catholic practices and rites. He will give you the opportunity, don’t be afraid, and continue to follow God on the pathway He is setting before you for your salvation. Love God and know God to the best of your ability. Trust in God completely. Begin by praying the rosary daily and devotedly asking for Blessed Mother’s intercession.
James that is beautiful on what you posted! God bless you!
God is so grand yet so gentle and patient. So grand yet He’ll meet us through His son. He is the gentlest through His holy Ghost. Better than any loving parent, more merciful than you and I will ever be or comprehend. We say this and that but often we neglect to seek comprehension of how small we really are. God decides how big or small He may decide to make of us, but we must never let go of our fixation on Him.
I encourage many to support your local Catholic Conferences, if you have any near by you or if you can travel to one as a family trip that would be something to nurture one in their faith. Kansas and California usually have a huge Catholic Conference that is usually full of devoted Catholics and awesome priests who are faithful.