San Francisco’s city attorney is coming down hard on Catholic Churches that he says are gathering illegally indoors, without face coverings.
In a seven-page cease-and-desist letter, City Attorney Dennis Herrera said the archdiocese of San Francisco is “putting its parishioners and the larger community at risk of serious illness and death.”
The letter says despite calls between San Francisco Health Officer, Dr. Aragon, and Archbishop Cordileone, multiple churches have held indoor gatherings that “violate the health order” and fail to “follow common sense safety protocols.”
Indoor gatherings are not currently permitted in San Francisco. Outside religious services and funerals are allowed with a 12-person limit.
Herrera’s letter lists a number of complaints that were filed against churches, including St. Francis of Assisi and Saints Peter and Paul churches in North Beach, which reportedly held public masses in June.
An investigator from the city attorney’s office says a priest without a mask held indoor masses at St. Mary of the Assumption in June.
The city attorney’s letter also points out a YouTube link of mask-less Star of Sea priest giving a sermon inside, as well as Father Joseph Illo’s blog that shows photos of church leaders and parishioners leading processions through their Richmond District neighborhood without face coverings.
“Anything involving the holy mass, the priests and servers will not wear a mask,” said Jerick Rea, who is training to be priest. ABC7 News met him after an indoor prayer service at Star of the Sea on Tuesday evening. He shared his thoughts on why many church leaders are not wearing masks.
“We consider the holy mass to be something special and sacred which shouldn’t be tarnished by something that has a human concern, and part of it as well is that we’re just being rational about it. None of us have experienced any symptoms,” said Rea, who added, “I understand if people are dying left and right, but they’re not.”
As for the illegal gatherings, Rea said, “Tons of people can go to grocery stores, the mall, weed shops, and be over 12 people indoors. It’s really insulting for practicing faithful people.”
The city attorney gave the archdiocese one day to comply or risk a temporary restraining order.
On Tuesday, an attorney for the archdiocese of San Francisco sent a letter to the city attorney’s office, saying they will comply with the health orders currently in effect.
The letter says in part, “The archbishop has now notified his priests that the order limiting religious services to outdoors with no more than 12 people remains in force with appropriate social distancing and face coverings.”
The above comes from a July 1 story on ABC7 News.
And how do these officials even know this? They send paid government employees – spies- to find out how a church conducts a worship then use covid panic to stop them. Don’t be fooled for one second, this is harassment of the faithful whose presence in San Francisco as elsewhere, drives pagan secularists crazy. No one is forced to attend religious services, if you want to stay away, then do, but do not use your fear and concerns to stop others.
The regulations are so fluid and arbitrary that one struggles to keep up with them. It’s a ruse use by little tyrants to seize and keep power. RESIST!
To all the good and tolerant liberals Catholics (Bob One, YFC) time to choose a side, the State or Church of Jesus Christ.
boehmond, please don’t try to make this a choice of one over the other. We can all do both. For the sake of our fellow Catholics, when we leave the house we should wear a mask so that we don’t infect others. Then, when we are around others try to stay at least six feet away from anyone not in your cohort. For the sake of others, don’t go into a church that is crowded with more than a few people. If that doesn’t feel safe, then watch the Mass on TV or Youtube. A priest that gives a sermon without wearing a mask is a priest that doesn’t care if he infects others. Back in the day, we had “Low Mass” most days and early Sunday mornings: no talking, no singing. It was like watching mass on TV. This is not a liberal vs. church issue. It is a health issue that for some reason the people of the US don’t want to fix. Yesterday we had over 50,000 more cases confirmed. The death rates are rising, the hospitals are full, the staffs are strained, materials are not available. And yet, some want to go about life as it was six months ago and expose or be exposed with not a care in the world.
Bob One once again speaks in soft and dulcet tones “Why don’t catholics just obey the City Attorney?” “SF really doesn’t mean to harm the Church….”
But that is what is happening. Catholics need to go to Mass and receive the Sacraments, and we are being unjustly deprived of this for many months..
So Bob One: Explain why there was no City complaint from Mr. Herrera about the hundreds gathered in the Castro for the annual Gay day. Also, explain why was there no City action against the hundreds of protestors on our streets, over the last few months… That the City chooses to threaten the Church, but ignore these other gatherings, indicates that the Attorney is very much anti-Catholic, and wishes to damage the Church. The City should not be threatening Catholics, while it ignores blatant rule infractions from other groups.
“The death rates are rising, the hospitals are full, the staffs are strained, materials are not available. And yet, some want to go about life as it was six months ago and expose or be exposed with not a care in the world.”
This is so blatantly untrue that all it takes are simple web searches to find out the real stats. The entire point of the shutdown was to prevent strain on the healthcare system. Hospitals ARE not overwhelmed or even “strained”. In fact, the emergency hospitals have been shut down. Many hospitals have layed off staff. There are plenty of respirators.
You want to paint everything with the same brush. The situation in my county and diocese is benign. 3 dead (two over 90 YO and living in an assisted living center) only 400 infected from a population of 300K. And yet, the bishop remains hidden in his mansion with no Mass and no other sacraments.
I very strongly encourage people to educate themselves on their LOCAL and STATE conditions as well as their own risk level. Stop listening to this chicken little. He was wrong in Feb and he is wrong now.
I’ll repeat myself. Your fear does not trump my rights.
Both my husband & I have been to a hospital in our city & another over the COVID shutdown time. We had no problem getting appointments, nor were the hospitals swamped with people, nor were their pharmacies nor their scan areas. We did not have to wait long times for shots either. Masks & hand sanitizing & spacing on seating were required. We should not make appointments unnecessarily, but it is fine to do so when really needed. In fact most people survive COVID without going to the hospital, by talking to providers by phone or computer.
boeheomnd and others, comparing health orders to Nazis and Commnists, or demand that we take false sides is just nonsense.
Is 12 the right limit at a place like St. Mary’s Cathedral? I’d say no….but better if they hold a service for 200 in the parking lot.
Compassion for peoples bodies and souls goes hand in hand, and you cannot consider yourself pro-life if you don’t consider the serious impact that pandemics have not only on those in the pews, but for those they come in contact with in their daily lives, who have no freedom of choice in the matter. You would have taken that freedom away from them.
“but for those they come in contact with in their daily lives, who have no freedom of choice in the matter. You would have taken that freedom away from them.”
Those at risk should stay home and take appropriate risks to their conditions. I fully advocate for your and others rights to stay home for as long as you or they chose to do so. even unto the unlikely event of an effective vaccine.
For those of us who are healthy and can make informed choices, why deny us that right?
Seriously, why does your fear trump our rights? Pls explain if you can.
Keith W peterson: Do you forget that people have to eat?They have to go to the doctor. They might have to take care of a sick elder or someone else down the chain., and they have to transport themselves to these places and interact with others along the way. They might have to go to work, or risk losing their homes if they can’t pay rent.
It’s really quite selfish to tell people, to simply stay home when that is just not a realistic choice for most people. Not only are they not free to make what you call an “informed choice”, they might be risking the lives of themselves and others to do so. Selfishness on the part of Christians called to embody the ideal of unconditional love is really unbecoming.
The Catholic Church has traditionally taught that obedience to lawful authority is required under the 4th Commandment.
CCC 2242 The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”48 “We must obey God rather than men”:49
Just sayin’ Should good Germans have followed Nazi’s? Or, Good Catholics in Poland under communism? Both clearly the lawful authority at the time.
All of the laws of the Nazis and Communists that are not contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel you would be obliged to follow.
On the other hand, could it be different people had attended several of these events, saw what was going on, and called the health department tip line?
What’s the difference between Mass outdoors with 12 or fewer people and no Mass at all?
Rosary Walk this Sunday, St. Mary’s of the Assumption Cathedral, San Francisco. 2:30 PM — we’ll walk from Cathedral to San Francisco City Hall. If your in the Bay Area, please come. Fr. Illo Pastor at Star of the Sea is the first target of many to come. Stand with us.
Or call the San Francisco City Desk and let them know that it is unreasonable to keep Mass attendance to 12, especially for outside gathering. Be civil and nice, but do call: 415–554-5977
As I’ve noted before, the cathedral seats 2,400 persons. For Herrera to go after Archbishop Cordileone if he celebrates Mass with a dozen others is outrageous and political. There is no basis in public health or any science for the magical number of 12. Masses I’ve attended in the archdiocese have had limited capacity, social distancing and persons were masked and not singing. Of course, the priest (and deacon) and reader (when reading) and cantor (when singing) are not masked, but they’re far from each other and the congregation. Might Christians, Jews and others in San Francisco be permitted to have more than 12 if they put signs in front calling themselves WalMart, The Dollar Store, daycare centers, marijuana dispensaries or an “autonomous zone?”
Deacon Craig Anderson. GOOD POINTS! We are allowed 100 people in our Church. We currently have 4 Sunday Masses and 2 daily Masses. Most folks do a good job of following the guidelines.
How can Mass with 25% capacity be “legal” just across the bridge in Oakland? Demographics are worse for Covid in Oakland. No justification for SF to have stricter “laws”. It’s persecution of the Catholic Church by SF leaders.
Meanwhile the pride celebrations were crazy in the Castro as usual and nobody at the city government said anything against them. BLM demonstrations are everywhere and nobody tries to limit them to 12 people. The arbitrariness of the SF Health Department and the City Attorney are an offense against justice.
Fr. Michael, GOOD POINTS!
Nor do the protestors, rioters, arsonists wear masks. Oh, that’s right, they’re not the silent majority.
Fr Michael, there was no pride celebration. It didn’t go on “as normal”.
Another example of blatant anti Catholicism. The city attorney would never have dared to come after “protesters” or
homosexuals flaunting their sinful lifestyles.
Just a point from a Priest near Los Angeles. I haven’t been to the Masses there in the San Franciso area, so it’s hard for me to judge what’s really going on. We can have our opinions about generalities, but not being there I can’t make a statement that a priest and/or people in a Church one mile away from me are doing wrong, let alone several or a hundred miles away. Even a video clip won’t capture it all.
So, while I’d love to jump in on one side or another and get into an internet brawl, raising my blood pressure and making myself feel victorious and arrogant, I think I’d rather leave this up to the wisdom of the Pastor there and the Archbishop, lest someone look at me and find my faults without knowing me. Anyone who looks at my name can certainly tell a lot about me, and what a great or horrible Priest I am (satire).
In general, I do my best to follow the instructions from our Archbishop and implement as many safety standards as possible. There are mistakes made and people don’t understand all of it. Not being a medical professional I don’t understand all of it in detail, so I research, do my best and take advice from medical professionals in my parish as to what are the best “Safe Practices”. There is a lot of misinformation out there. Let’s not be gullible. Like my Mother used to say: “Beleive half of what you see and none of what you hear”. That’s an exaggeration that’s meant to prove a point.
Having said that I see a lot of anti-Catholicism in our society today. I’ve heard it preached from some “Christian” Churches and see it in the domestic terrorists who are blatantly Marxist or even some White supremacists, which I have encountered personally. Extremists don’t like us at all. The last thing we need is to tear each other apart while Mr. Herrera and his folks are doing their best to harass us.
Why the church and not the Pride Parade or the protests in the streets? I don’t know why, or the answers to these questions. And they are good questions that should be answered by the government. I am still not ready to say that the rules are set up specifically to discriminate against the Catholic Church or other religions, but … There is no good reason for the Castro to be filled with people shoulder to shoulder, without masks.It seems to me that the rules should be evenly applied to all situations. If only 12 people can be in church at one time, then only 12 people can be in Walmart at one time, or Home Depot, or whatever another store. All we can ask for is consistency. But if the powers that be were to loosen up their arbitrary rules, they should include social distancing, wearing of mask, no singing, no hand shaking, no hugs, no prayers out loud, etc. If the Priest faces the people, he should wear a mask except for communion. Some churches now are doing drive-through communion (I don’t like the idea) communion by intinction which makes sense, or many Protestant churches have a tradition of using individual cups for the wine. The Eastern churches give communion from a spoion (not too sanitary) We can get the sacraments in different ways, can’t we?.
Muddled comment. “Rules should be evenly applied to all situations….but, if so, then, No singing, no hand shaking, no hugs, no prayers out loud…” So Bob One continues on his “The Church must obey, even if gays, commerce, business, & street protests, are much freer”. We don’t buy this stuff anymore Bob. We want to go to Mass, and most Churches are quite large, big enough to safely accommodate Massgoers. It’s been three months of no Mass, it’s time to end this, right now.
Excellent Anon. perfect description of his comments.
Pride Parade celebrating sodomy is more like it…..
Where can I receive communion and attend mass in Santa Clara County or anywhere within traveling distance. I want to go to mass in person and receive the sacraments and I am lost with the rules My own parish in San Jose, St. Frances Cabrini, does not want me to come to mass because I am 68. I am healthy, working every day and there is no reason for me not to be able to go to Mass. Online mass is just not the same, albeit it is better than nothing!. It is just not enough. I want to receive communion and go to confession and attend mass.
San Mateo County (the Archdiocese of San Francisco, outside of the City and County of San Francisco) does permit Masses according to the State guidelines (25 percent capacity or 100 persons, whichever is lower, “social distancing,” wear a mask and no congregational singing). More than one parish in Santa Clara County has drive-through Communion and drive-through or parking lot Confession. At least one parish is starting outdoor Masses this Sunday. Though limited to 25 persons outdoors, I was informed that they will NOT be turning people away from their large outdoor area should more than the small number permitted (you have to count the priest, cantor, reader, camera person too) show up wearing masks and staying away from others not in their household. For the sake of the parishes and their pastors, I won’t post their names. (I’m serving only a “live stream” Liturgy with no congregation, should some reader here want to report me to authorities.)
How many who wear the same mask or face covering day after day, inhale the exhaled exudate trapped in the mask, day after day. Doesn’t seem sanitary or make sense to me. I wish we were all more concerned about the purity and safety of our eternal soul.
1. Priests should wear a mask when distributing communion.
2. All faithful should wear masks during services.
I think your suggestions are good ones, except the communicant must take down his mask for Communion. People should space themselves away from others also when walking up to the Communion area. Everyone must let their priest know they are coming for confession, Communion, or the blessing of articles, so he can set limits, and I would not go every Sunday so others have a chance to do so. If we are polite and considerate about all this, it should work just fine.
WEAR A MASK. THE LIFE YOU SAVE MAY BE THE OLD LADY IN THE FIRST ROW.
Cranky old gal — right on! I’m a retired RN and it is ludicrous seeing the way masks are worn. A thin cotton mask is useless after a few minutes of talking. The moisture from talking and respirations makes the mask totally ineffective. Even masks that are of thicker material shouldn’t be worn day after day. I keep mine in my purse and in my car. Sometimes in my car it falls to the floor; I pick it up and wear it again. I know what I am doing is totally insane and useless but I wear it to appease the bureaucrats who are loving their power.
If there was rationality and consistency I would understand their use. But it is about 90% political, evident in the silence of the Gay Pride parades, the open marijuana and vaping shops, the BLM protests and vandals, the far more than 12 people in Costco, Trader Joe’s, grocery stores, Home Depot. The restrictions on numbers in church are anti-Catholic persecution.
Priests and lectors are far from the congregation, making the wearing of masks ridiculous. Maybe ad orientem would help appease the secularists? That is one restriction I could agree with!!
Peggy. Your head is on straight. I’m in the “med biz” as well, and appalled at what I see that the mask devotees cannot. In any case, I wish them well.
Render to Cesar the things that are Cesar’s and to God the things that are God’s. It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who find any excuse to ignore rules of law because it’s not convenient for them. In addition it’s shames me as a Catholic to witness Catholics who feel they are above the law. FOLLOW THE RULES AND KEEP YOUR PRIVILEDGES. If you are a law breaker suffer the consequences. That goes for clergy and people alike, This Pandemic has killed far too many people, and yes some were Catholics . Accept that this is serious so that we can all one day celebrate God’s love together.
John Bennigni needs to think things through before he writes. He writes: “If you are a law breaker suffer the consequences.” Laws that are just must be followed; but not laws that are unjust, and SF’s law in this regard smacks of injustice. The Church may very well suffer the consequences if the SF Archdiocese chooses to break an unjust law (but the Archbishop has chosen not to). Suffering for disobeying an unjust law is something that the Church has done remarkably in the past: for this it has produced martyrs. Plus, John Bennigni writes: “This pandemic has killed far too many people.” Surely, one death is far too many, but as one commenter above points out: “They’re not dying left and right.” The over-abundant precautions that these local governments are placing on houses of worship may be just that: overabundant. Lastly, John Bennigni is very wrong to say that Catholics “feel they are above the law.” PLEASE. The local Churches have bent over backwards adhering to the draconian measures of our local officials.
For once I agree with everything jon wrote.
No, James. Following the rules as defined by the City Attorney, means following an unjust application of the laws to Catholics only. This must end. Take some time to look at the statistics of cv also. For example, you should learn that 700 to 800 people DIE EVERY DAY, in California, from all causes. That is a completely normal statistic for the population of this state. Of the above, about 60 a day are dying of cv. What about the other 640-740? Did we shut down our economy because of them? At any time? Also, we get a deadly virus flu every year, not just this year. There have always been the annual flus. Millions get ill every year, and a half million get hospitalized, on average. Two years ago, up to 80,000 died of a flu, and there was no public outcry about a pandemic. And what will we do next year? There is certain to be another flu, and it will be, as usual, highly contagious. Wake up. We have no choice. We cannot wear masks, hide under desks, and quiver in terror every year. We humans have to face cv as we do to cancer, heart attacks, and traffic accidents. Flus are part of life, just as every other disease. They will not go away, and they are so highly contagious that almost all of us get sick. After enough people get sick, and develop antibodies, then, and only then, the flu will die back. There is no escape….so take courage. Go to Mass (if it will be permitted!!) and say your prayers.
What gives you the idea that the prohibition against public religious ceremonies is something that applies only to Catholics? It applies equally to jews, muslims, protestants, heretics, babylonians, and everybody. Maybe you got a wrong impression from something you read, but it isn’t a catholic only thing at all.
The diocese should advertise its services as “protest against sin”, since the government and mainstream media don’t seem to have any problems with groups of people gathering to protest regardless of number. Oh, that’s right, if the protest doesn’t meet the Marxist agenda, it too will be stopped. What do you think would happen in any of these cities with leftist leaders if a group of prolifers went out and blocked a freeway. There would be no tolerance by the left. Jesus save us from the evil leaders of this world!
I hope that government and health leaders are not targeting our Church! Well– it is very scary, to suddenly lose a loved one (younger, and in good health) to COVID-19!! We don’t have all the answers. Better to be very careful– and do all we can, to responsibly protect all life! We just do not have all the answers! Those wrongfully congregating for protests, riots, etc.– have worsened the COVID-19 situation! I am older, and I daily shower again, and wash my coat, clothes, and mask, after a trip to the store, etc. I can wait for my Sacraments, Christ is with me always! Since childhood, I was taught to make Spiritual Communions! Best, for this time! I can read Scripture, pray, say my Rosary, make sacrifices, and watch a TV Mass, for now. Be strong, care for others’ needs, be unselfish– grow in your faith! Offer up your sacrifices! And be careful– we do not have all the answers! I had a great-uncle with a very promising future, who was young and healthy– suddenly called home to God, during the 1918 Spanish Flu Pandemic! And young, healthy people are suddenly dying, during our current pandemic, likewise! Not worth it, taking chances! We don’t have all the answers!
Is there a covid19 pandemic? Yes! Is it getting worse? Yes! Should we be concerned? Yes! Is there a way to mitigate the spread? Yes! What are they? Staying home as much as possible, don’t go into large crowds, wear a mask, wash your hands, wear plastic gloves, disinfect everything that comes into your home, don’t let people into your home who don’t live there, and a bunch of other stuff. We can fight this scourge and win if people cooperate and act as if it matters. Halting this pandemic is not a conspiracy to take away our rights or our religion, but an attempt to do the common good. I think that our “I have my rights” is exactly the wrong way to approach this. A better way would be “I will do whatever I can to help stop this pandemic, even if it is inconvenient.” We know that if we simply locked down the country for two or three weeks the virus would stop spreading, but nobody, including our civil leaders, are willing to do that. As a result we have a mishmash of regulations that confuse people. The solution is actually fairly simple. We might all consider thinking about our fellow human kind and trying to save their lives. Anything less is unAmerican and unChristian.
There is something fundamentally wrong in Bob One’s view of reality. He has forgotten that this “scourge” that he talks about has been politicized to the extent that to the average person on the street–seeing that the deaths from SARS-CoV-2 is nowhere near the 50 million deaths from the Spanish flu of 1918–immediately understands that there is more going on here than just “attempting to do the common good.” This is becoming not about keeping people healthy, but about the results of the November ballot. He bewails the “mishmash of regulations”. Please, would he rather have the same regulations in NYC be inflicted upon rural Idaho? Preserving people’s rights, making sure the economy is not irredeemably lost (by not requiring everyone to shelter-in-place, but only the most vulnerable), but at the same time and making sure the most vulnerable are protected IS the “right approach.” Throwing the “unAmerican and unchristian” judgment is ridiculous: it just proves that he too is politicizing this “scourge.”
jon, the wrongheaded thinking is that we should only be worried when we get to 50 million deaths. When pandemics like this take hold and go exponential, you can see deaths double every week or two. So the 500,000 COVID deaths we’ve had to date could become 2,000,000 in a month, 8,000,000 in two months, 32,000,000 in three months.
I appreciate many of Anne TE’s comments on this thread. She is a person showing herself to be realistic, cautious, and trying to make the best of a bad situation where none of us have complete information and none of us can guarantee absolutely that we are doing the right things. That’s the spirit we all ought to adopt.
Jon, I’m sorry if I sounded like I too was politicizing this whole thing; didn’t mean to do that. Frustration may be peaking or something. I would agree with you, that NYC tactics may not work in Idaho. If all of the people in the country had had some good direction at the outset of the pandemic, we would be in much better shape today. If everyone had done what was needed to protect the vulnerable, we would be in much better shape. We were warned that we could overwhelm the hospitals. We are doing that as the virus moves across the country. Little things – masks are political things, they are worn so that we, we, don’t infect others. We keep our distance so that we don infect others. We stay away from crowded beaches so that we don’t infect others. If the whole country had stayed home for a couple of weeks, imagine the good that could have been accomplished. But no, we had our rights to say that we didn’t have to take good advice, we could go without masks and infect others who would infect others who would infect others. This is a public health issue, not a political rights issue. So yes, the rancher in Idaho should not congregate with others without wearing a mask and taking other precautions.
Both Your Fellow Catholic and Bob One demonstrate by their comments that they have indeed politicized this “scourge.” The former is advocating that the draconian measures being inflicted upon the economy continue for fear of an “exponential” infection. Don’t he and Bob One understand that a failed economy in the US will inflict far, far more worse, suffering upon more than 50 million people worldwide? Most of those who will suffer will be the poor in the poorest nations? Doesn’t he and Bob One know that the health of the economy is not a mere question of profits and money, but is indeed also a public health issue? Don’t they know (possibly not if they only listen to the mainstream media) that the death rate from this “scourge” is actually going gown? This is being politicized people, and don’t let folks like these two tell you that you are being “wrongheaded,” “un-American,” or “un-Christian”.
Isn’t a classic definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?
The county I live has been locked down for four months now. And, the number of cases continues to increase (though, apparently, we did “flatten the curve,” our hospitals are not overwhelmed). The mortality rate continues to drop and both that and the case increase may be due to increased testing. What we’ve been doing in closing down schools, jobs and places of worship for 1/3 of a year has not worked.
Bob One, why do you think it will work now?
The number of cases continues to rise in states run by liberal Democrat governors and conservative Republican governors. As the Wall Street Journal noted, there is a “coronavirus credibility gap” with virtually all levels of government (supposed “facts” changing) as well as with the media.
Can you think of any time before where all the residents of a country have been quarantined?
Why do think if we would’ve all done what you advise that this would’ve been over in “two or three weeks?”
What is needed is for most Americans to educate themselves as to the data and the statistics for cv. Go onto the website Worldometer – data for US coronavirus. Page down until you see the deaths attributed to cv. There you will see a graph that shows the cv progression for 4 months – it went from zero to a peak of around 3000 US deaths a day, and now has dropped to around 300 deaths a day. This a clear decline and shows that we are near the end of this “Pandemic”. Now the News Media, seeing that deaths are diminishing, has switched its emphasis to Positive cv tests. Since most people will get cv, (and most hardly have any symptoms), this is not a good indicator that (according to the Media), cv is increasing. Quite the contrary. Since 99.5% plus survive, and now have developed the antibodies, that means that cv will continue decreasing.
Finally, it is evident that the statistics for cv deaths are being augmented. Just two recent examples. One person in the news, a survivor of 911, developed cv and died, according to the Media. They did mention he was operated on for a brain tumor before that. Another person, an actor, also developed cv and died, according to the Media. It seems he also had a stroke, blood clots, heart problems, and had a leg amputated. But the cause of his death was given as cv !
In short, every American needs to educate themselves by referring to data, and the Media is no longer reliable for accurate cv information, and is biased. One very clear cut indication of this, is that the US has, on average, 8000 deaths a day. You need to know this, to keep the current cv death rate in perspective.
Please do some work – investigate the data. You will be very important since we need Americans to make educated choices, and keep their fellow citizens informed. All the best for your investigative work….and remember that all of us will die, yes it is painful to think about. Say your prayers, go to Church (if only that were allowed!!) And say a Rosary every day. And let’s get those Churches open again!
Ok jon, if you think biology and math and health are political then I admit it. I have made this pandemic political. So be it. I’m just trying to save lives. I guess saving lives turns out to be political.
Your Fellow Catholic, Based on your interpretation of the “biology and the math” concerning COVID, you have claimed that the 500,000 deaths we now have from COVID could “exponentially” turn to “2,000,000 in a month, 8,000,000 in two months.” Such preposterousness isn’t supported by the dropping death rates form COVID.
jon, death rates were falling for a while because those getting infected are young people going to parties, who do not often die of the disease. And we have two very good drugs now that help keep people from getting so sick that they are at risk. These are very very good things.
Our Country took 99 days to clock its first million cases.
Our Country took 48 days to clock its second million cases.
Today, we are over 3 million cases. Thats a million cases in only 28 days.
We are adding over 50,000 cases a day to that number. ICUs in parts of Florida and Texas are already full. Testing supplies are in short supplies so that in places like Sacramento, tests take 5 days to come back, which makes them essentially useless for contact tracing.
Young people understandably anxious about getting back to their social lives are fueling the current explosion of cases, but Churches aren’t helping. Don’t be one of these Churches, please. Let’s find ways to reopen our pathways to grace without reopening pathways to viral spread. I propose outdoor masses.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/08/us/coronavirus-churches-outbreaks.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
Your Fellow Catholic is totally peddling the scare-mongering in the mainstream media, peoples. He, and they, would want to us to hear that Covid cases = deaths. Totally wrong. The blantant lying and scare-mongering is breathtaking. It’s irresponsible.
Simply put peoples, the scare-mongering which says that the rise in cases will equal the same number of deaths, or even an “exponential” rise in deaths, is unsupported by the “biology and math” that Your Fellow Catholic purports to stand behind. This is about their effort to keep the economy stagnant, so as to influence the November ballot.
No, jon, please. This is not an us vs. them. a MSM vs catholic media. A politial issue. It is an issue of life and death. Please stop this. The virus is spreading. The recent surge in cases WILL show up eventually in the death totals. Why such lack of compassion? Why Dollars versus Deaths? This isn’t about the November ballot, unless you want to make it about the November ballot. Republicans and Democrats are united in the effort to save lives. Why can’t Catholics like you, jon, join in to save lives?
Peoples: You know that Your Fellow Catholic’s position is principally about the November ballot whenever he starts pulling out the “compassion” card: as if folks on his side have a monopoly on compassion. But if we humour him for a bit, the most compassionate epidemiological and economic policy is to allow the rest of society to go about their business unencumbered, while urging the older population and those of any age who have co-morbidities to shelter-in-place. To require everyone to shelter-in-place is NOT proportionate to the “biology” of this disease–“biology” which that fellow purports to stand behind. As I have stated in a previous comment, ensuring the health of the economy is not merely a matter of dollars and profits but is IN ITSELF a public health issue–millions of lives and livelihoods are being ruined as a result of a policy that is disproportionate to the reality of this disease. Be under no illusion folks, it is NOT compassion that is moving folks like YFC; rather it is hatred: hatred for Trump; and contempt–yes, contempt–for people of faith, especially the Catholic faith, who have every right to worship God in their own manner as befitting His Glory.
OMG jon seriously right now? This has nothing to do with who we vote for, and you have no right to speak for my motivations. There is no such thing as an “epidemiological policy”, but this entire question has everything to do with whether we stand up for life or not regardless of party affiliation. Dollars are not more important than death. “Businesses unencumbered” is creating exactly that equation. You might disagree with the conclusions that public health experts are putting forth but please, OMG, please don’t pretend that they or we are motivated by who to vote for in November. That is just the latest example of calumny
There is no need for me to engage in calumny because your comments, Your Fellow Catholic, give you away: that you indeed are looking at this from the standpoint of continuing to suspend the economy so as to affect the November ballot. Firstly you admitted yourself earlier that you indeed are “politicizing” this, albeit using disingenuous rhetoric. Secondly, the “biology” of this disease do not prove the continuing shut-down of economies and neither do the statistics (the real ones, mind you, not the ones that anonjoe has just found from you to be false) justify the closing down of houses of worship like the ones in San Francisco. Thirdly, you haven’t even read my comment, I can tell (due to how you have responded). Honestly, people the hatred of many people for Trump has unhinged their judgment: they would rather see economies collapse, people’s livelihoods ruined, and their mental health and even physical health deteriorate for the sake of getting Trump out of office. This is NOT compassion; this is evil.
Where did I ever say that cases equals deaths?
So now this fellow asks: “Where did I ever say that cases equals [sic] deaths? I say this fellow must really try harder to keep up with the thread here. But to help him out: I was picking up on his very unlikely theory of an “exponential” rise in deaths from 500,000 to 2 million (!); and then he later defends his point by bringing up the historic trend in cases (not deaths, mind you). By responding in that exact manner to my point about deaths, he has in effect equated the rise in cases to “buttress” his preposterous point about an “exponential” rise in deaths.
500,000 deaths worldwide my friend. Actually already worldwide deaths are 560,306 deaths worldwide. At least 12.5 million cases worlwide. Read that again: 12.5 million cases worlwide, likely more if everyone could get tested.
In the United States as of this morning, 3,199,775 known cases and 133,906 known deaths. We are number one in the world in per capita statistics. We have 978 known cases out of every 100,000 population. We have 41 known deaths due to COVID out of every 100,000 population. So far. And we probably miss quite a few since we don’t test everyone.
Some places, like San Francisco which had some of the earliest and strictest measures are doing better. We have had 50 deaths as of yesterday, and 4400 cases, even though we have a population of nearly 900,000 people. We have some of the best public health experts and physicians here thanks to UCSF and Stanford, and so we test the most vulnerable populations and give the best care. Not everone can get access to that wealth of testing and treatment.
Be pro-life. Wear a mask, Don’t go to crowded spaces, especially if they are indoors. And please don’t risk lives because you think that’s what Jesus wants. I’m pretty sure his Sacred Heart surrounds you with his infinite love right there at home.
People: Your Fellow Catholic writes: “We have 41 known deaths due to COVID out of every 100,000 population.” If that doesn’t prove to you that this fellow doesn’t know what he’s talking about, I don’t know what will. On the face of it, that figure alone justifies the immediate end of any shelter-in-place order out there. Otherwise, this fellow’s continued call to shelter-in-place in the face of the figures he himself puts out there demonstrates that he really doesn’t know what he is saying. His “exponential” rise-in-deaths theory has been shown to be false. He hasn’t proven his point. He has lost credibility here. Sorry to say.
Just to clarify my point further, my earlier comment should read: “On the face of it, that figure alone justifies the immediate end of any shelter-in-place order out there for the entire population. Otherwise, this fellow’s continued for everyone to shelter-in-place in the face of the figures he himself puts out there demonstrates that he really doesn’t know what he is saying.” I still believe that the most vulnerable (the elderly and those with co-morbidities) should shelter-in-place, but not everybody.
Thanks very much yfc…for admitting that the shutdowns and religious persecution are largely political. Now would you please stop standing on my toes, so I can go to Mass again. And stop smothering us in masks, so my kids can get back to work? We realize how tough it is for the gov and you, but really, we need to support our families.
anonjoe your response is all MEMEMEMEME. Selfish to the core. Who gives a damn about the person I might carry the virus to who might die of it. It’s all about me.
Your Fellow Catholic writes: “Who gives a damn about the person I might carry the virus to who might die of it. It’s all about me.” Such histrionics and inaccuracies from Your Fellow Catholic. Please. The survivability rate from COVID is 97%-99.75%! The point is that a fictitious person infected by anonjoe would most likely NOT die. Hardly the stuff to justify calling anonjoe “selfish to the core.”
You give wonderfully reassuring statistics jon. but, I’m sure you have no medical source to back up your claims. About 20% of people who show symptoms and test positive for COVID end up in the hospital. The survival rate beyond that seems to vary a lot, based on whether the hospital system is overwhelmed or not, and new medications, if they are even available, may help us trend that ever hopefully downward. But the real rate is that 20% go into the hospital, and anywhere from 1-7% will die from it. Your 99.75% statistic is purely made up on your part.
Right. No less than Johns Hopkins basically prove my points here.
YFC gives estimates of hospitalization due to cv as 20% of those who test positive for COVID. This is not correct.
Referring to the authority of cv statistics, the Center of Disease Control, CDC, the accepted governmental standard for data: One of their
studies shows that:
“The COVID-19–associated hospitalization rate among patients identified through COVID-NET for the 4-week period ending March 28, 2020, was 4.6 per 100,000 population” (CDC Figures)
anonjoe, 4.6 per 100,00 of the population is not a statistic that contradicts what I said. I said 20% of those who get the disease end up hospitalized.
I know that none of us should have to delve into these statistics in this way. But if we listen to the health experts…people who have been trained professionally in part thanks to our tax dollars…we don’t need to.
What we need to do is stay home and save lives. And when we do have to go out for food or health appointments or exercise or prayer…wear a mask.
Your Fellow Catholic’s response is a classic death knell to people’s freedoms: “just listen to the experts, and do as they say” while ignoring the truth and statistics in front of all of us about this disease. YFC’s “prescription” (that everyone should stay at home and go out only for the essentials) is DISPROPORTIONATE to the reality of this disease: why should everyone stay home when we all know who are the most vulnerable to COVID (the elderly and those with co-morbidities who should be the ones urged to stay at home and should be protected). YFC and those like him have had their judgements unhinged by their hatred for Trump. Straight up.
Sweden, one of the most socialistic nations on the planet tried exactly what you propose jon. Their economy is in the tank and their death rate is ten times higher than their neighboring countries.
Right. Your Fellow Catholic’s holding up of Sweden is predictable, and uninformed. Folks, that Sweden’s economy is in the tank may indeed have a lot to do with the socialist policies of its government, not COVID (facetiously). But honestly folks, there is a lot more darker reasons for the situation in Sweden: and it is NOT because Sweden did not lockdown (note the double negative there). In a study from the journal “Clinical Infectious Diseases” published by Oxford Academic, researchers found that people who are most vulnerable were not seeking treatment, most likely by choice, and moreover medical professionals seemed to have taken upon themselves the decision of who gets to live and to die. ICU beds in Sweden were not even completely used. But folks, more to the point, even in Sweden—whose death rate is going dramatically down by the way—experienced 543 deaths per million of its population. That’s a death rate of 0.054%, people.
Sweden’s death rate due to covid is ten times higher than neighboring socialistic countries. TEN times higher.
This fellow’s assertion is a classic example of merely looking at the numbers without analyzing them or figuring what they mean. As I stated above, a recent study from the journal published by Oxford Academic found that it was not Sweden’s shunning of lockdown that necessarily resulted in these numbers. I had already given some of the reasons from that study earlier. Plus, in a recent interview, the Swedish Prime Minister himself, Stefan Löfven, judged that the country’s overall approach has been correct, except for a relative lack of protection towards care homes. This is not because of a lack of a lockdown.
jon appears to be using very old data about Sweden. As of today, they have had at least 5,526 deaths due to COVID19, TEN TIMES jon’s number.
https://www.google.com/search?q=sweden+covid+deaths&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS702US702&oq=sweden+covid+deaths&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l6j69i60.6211j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
And I was right about 20% who get the disease require hospitalization:
https://www.google.com/search?q=what+percentage+of+covid+19+cases+are+hospitalized&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS702US702&oq=what+percentage+ov+covid+&aqs=chrome.4.69i57j0l7.15177j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
I’ll keep throwing out facts and data, and some of you can throw out insults and name calling. Fine with me. In case you haven’t realized yet, I have a pretty thick skin. Compassionate Catholics care about those who are sick and who die. I hope (and believe) that most CCD readers are pro-life.
Correction to my post at 8:23 PM last night. I mistakenly thought jon’s stats referred to the entire country of Sweden, but as he said, they were referring to death rates per million, so his data and mine are pretty close.
Fortunately for Sweden, they seem to have peaked their cases. There are some restrictions on large gatherings and indoor venues in Sweden, but the bottom line answer is that we have no real idea why case numbers have dropped back to reasonable levels there.
Similarly, no one doubts that the surge in cases in places like Florida, is directly linked fo the opening of bars and other indoor venues.
https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-coronavirus-cases-deaths-fall-not-mean-lockdown-plan-worked-2020-7
Right. The interview from the Swedish Prime Minister is recent. He says that half, get that, half of the deaths in Sweden is from care homes: the deaths are not because the Swedish society as a whole did not lock down. The room for improvement in Sweden is diligence with respect to protecting care homes. Plus, the study from Oxford Review is recent.
By the way folks, concerning this fellow’s claim that our figures are wrong: As of July 13, today, Johns Hopkins reports 54.27 deaths per 100,000 of its population (5.4% rate). This is the same rate given that Sweden has a population of 10 with total mortality of 5,526. And half of this, according to the Swedish Prime Minister were in Sweden’s care homes. The Prime Minister is correct: it is not Sweden’s shunning of a lockdown (which is the correct approach he confirms) that resulted in these numbers; but the government’s lack of vigilance with respect to its care homes.
YFC, the CDC study did not say, 4.6 per 100,000 of the population. It stated 4.6 per 100,000 people who were identified as having covid. And also, just how do you get the 20% figure from 4.6 people in a base of 100,000 people?
anonjoe you are misquoting the study. Please provide a direct quote from whatever study you seem to be reading, and a link to the study. The death rate is about 1% of people with the disease at world-class hospitals that aren’t overwhelmed. When cases overwhelm the health care system, that number can be as high as 7 or 8 deaths per 100 COVID cases.
There have been 3.1 million confirmed cases of COVID and 133,079 deaths because of it. That is 4.3 deaths per 100 cases. Because people who contract the disease today wont’ die of it right away, that number is a low estimate.
Of course, we all hope that medicines and the lower age will keep that number as low as possible, but your numbers are way off the reality of the situation. You can check this number on a daily basis on the New York Times website, the Johns Hopkins website, the CDC website, the World Health Organization Website. etc etc.
Correction to my post this morning. My statistics were, I believe correct. However, I was not correct when I stated that the US is number one in per capita cases and per capita deaths.
You were not correct on so many things, Your Fellow Catholic.