The following comes from a July 19 story in the Washington Post.
As Ann Cabiness stood in the Communion line at Our Lady of Lourdes Catholic Church on Sunday morning, two things were on her mind: connecting with God and getting out of the humid sanctuary before someone mentioned her skimpy tank top and tight, knee-length running pants.
“I know I’m inappropriate, but I’m trying to save time. I know I’m in the wrong. My mother would not approve,” the 30-year-old said sheepishly as she made a beeline from Mass at the Bethesda church to the gym. “But would it be better that I not come?”
Summer in our sweltering region forces a theological question: How does God feel about exposed shoulders in a house of worship? Or toes? Or some glimpse of thigh?
With temperatures in the 80s by 7:30 a.m. services, this is the season for church bulletin items like the one in Our Lady’s: “Dignity & Decorum: Please try not to wear beach shorts, tank tops, and flip-flops to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Thank you.”
In general, casual has pummeled formal everywhere in America, from airplanes to offices. But places of worship — where debates on modesty are not confined to the summer months — may be the final frontier for questions about what constitutes overly risque. And those questions have recently sprung to new life.
A popular campaign aimed at young evangelical women called “Modest is Hottest” has triggered backlash by devout younger women who see the slogan as sexist. When the Bible calls for “modesty,” they argue, it refers to displays of things like wealth and is describing the depth of one’s spirit, not their neckline.Teaching women that their value rises if they have more clothes on is objectifying, a torrent of essays have argued.
“A woman’s breasts and buttocks and thighs all proclaim the glory of the Lord,” said Sharon Hodde Miller, a doctoral student at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School whose critique of “modest is hottest” in the online evangelical magazine Christianity Today was one of the best-read of recent years. “Modesty is an orientation of the heart, first and foremost. It begins with putting God first. To look at an outfit and say if it’s modest or immodest, I’m not sure you can do that.”
Some critics say the drive for looser, longer fabric has political tones, a “modesty nostalgia” for a happier, more fully clothed America that some feel never was. But advocates for less skin in the sanctuary see modest attire as transformational — part of the process of moving into a spiritual head space.
Particularly today as institutional religion bleeds members, many churches — even some theologically conservative ones — advertise that dress is “come as you are.”
“We don’t want clothes to ever be a barrier. That’s one reason we don’t talk about it,” said the Rev. Don Davidson of First Baptist Church of Alexandria.
To read the entire story, click here.
““A woman’s breasts and buttocks and thighs all proclaim the glory of the Lord,” said Sharon Hodde Miller, a doctoral student at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School”: Misprint of her name, should be, Sharon Ho D.D.E. (doctor of demonic evil).
I hope some women comment on your changing a person’s name to express your level of respect for women.
Your comment shows your level of modesty, Skai.
PA, you know nothing whatsoever about modesty.
When I work out, especially if my fitness goals seem difficult, the heaviest weights seem like the best opportunity for substantial physical improvement. This doesn’t work if I take on more than my body is ready for. It is very easy to become fatigued and disheartened when the weights obstinately refuse to move.
Responding effectively to a person who behaves or dresses immodestly can likewise be an opportunity for real spiritual growth if I don’t take on more than my soul is ready for. It is very easy to get sucked into judgment by trying to change a person who is persistently and obstinately disrespectful. Sometimes the most mature response is no response at all.
No response at all, Francis, is not a mature response. When is the last time Jesus left you hanging? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
I have tried that, but the only probably is that when there is not a dress code for church, it only gets worse and worse.
Oops! I meant “problem” not “probably”.
Duh, PA, notice I referred to one individual specific particular woman, and not all women. Are you intentionally attempting to deceive or has your gayness got you so confused that you cannot distinguish individual person from very large group of persons???
PA, read my comments on this thread and you will see that I respect hoz. You do not respect hoz because you pretend they are not hoz. Jesus calls it like it is. Besides “God is no respecter of men”: What do you make of this Scripture, PA?
Skai, Mark PA is right on this one. Although the woman did say a very inappropriate thing, and in essence did talk like a woman of ill repute, please be a gentlemen and not name call. There are other ways of expressing what you meant.
Trying to change Skai’s ways is an example of “trying to change a person who is persistently and obstinately disrespectful.” In the same way, trying to change someone’s sartorial habits, if they persist in their behavior, may even exacerbate the obstinacy.
It is difficult to accept, and very sad when disrespectful behavior in speech or clothing becomes so entrenched.
Thanks, Anne T. I make these comments about women and it is sobering to me to think that most of the women here probably think that I am some kind of idiot.
Anony and Francis Skai is not disrespectful, you only dislike him because He is appalled by your bad will. There are times that your dissent does bring that out of anyone, even saints….
“…you only dislike him because He is appalled by your bad will.”
You don’t know what I feel or why, other than what I write about.
You don’t know what Skai feels or why, other than what he writes about.
To believe you can know unrevealed thoughts and motivations in someone else’s mind, though you’ve never that person, is to believe that you are a god.
Francis not so….not at all but you have made comments that leave one to wonder and that in itself exposes bad will. So if you are not in bad will then don’t write like one!
Frankly the god comment is foolish and shows a great deal of ignorance on your part…its absurd to say that and well….so stop your intimidation tactics by trying to discredit discernment…the gift of discernment and other gifts come from God…so to have them does not make us a god. Geeze get your facts straight…
Its shameful to have to deal with elders who behave this way……actions also display bad will, your comments in the past have give you away mister. Trying to insult my intelligence ey….
You are correct, thinking you can discern unrevealed thoughts and motivations of other people doesn’t make you a god. In my frustration I overstated my position.
I still think you are wrong to think you can read my mind or Skai’s. Especially Skai’s.
Mark from PA,
Try this Woman’s remarks at Fatima on for size: “Unless My message is heeded, certain fashions will be introduced that will offend My Son very much”. Guess what She meant by “offend very much”, She meant Mortal Sin!
I know a priest who when told, “but Father, it is hot” replied without hesitation “my daughter it is much hotter in Hell”.
We do not have that problem at the Traditional parishes I know of. At Our Lady Help of Christians, Garden Grove, the Ushers have permission of the priests to point out to both men and women when they are not appropriately dressed!
You can still get “Proper Dress in Church” posters from me. I am in the phone book in Anaheim, CA.
May God have mercy on America,
Kenneth M. Fisher
I saw a woman at mass recently…tan legs, no hose, mini-skirt, high-heeled wedges…bronzed cleavage…the works…eyelashes that looked like tarantulas…and enough lip-gloss, to grease a motor home axle…she really enjoyed the ‘hot” eyes of the distracted men…she was all smiles…a regular temptress…a jezebel…
You carry your snare everywhere and spread your nets in all places. You allege that you never invited others to sin. You did not indeed, by your words, but you have done so by your dress and your deportment.”
— Saint John Chrysostom
“Let your modesty be a sufficient incitement, yea, an exhortation to everyone to be at peace on their merely looking at you.”
— Saint Ignatius of Loyola
No one should distract another from fully participating in the Mass. If someone feels that working out in the gym is of more priority than going to Mass (as the woman dressed for working out, not taking communion) than by all means, stay away from Mass and go to the gym. It’s really no different than speaking out of both sides of one’s mouth, or trying to serve God and mammon…you cannot serve two masters. Once you’ve matured and can see why, then you dress appropriately for going to worship God and not at one’s own temple, the body. This woman that was dressed for the gym was flaunting her body, which was probably all toned and thin, and like the woman Romer described, vain and predatory. I deeply regret deliberately being a source of temptation when I was young and if I had a daughter I would teach her the importance of self respect and modesty. I wrote on a much older post similar to Anne’s and I agree with you wholeheartedly, Anne. Yes, women were blessed with many attributes, but they were made to nourish our children and to enhance and enable the manifold blessings of matrimony and child bearing. God designed us and it’s always best to follow the manufacturer’s instructions! :0)
Romer, it is good when hoz come to Mass. They need to follow Jesus. Remember what Jesus says about hoz and ho masters. The ho masters end won’t get into Heaven before the hoz do. Remember what Jesus said to the ho masters who were preparing to stone a ho to death … He shamed them and they packed up and hit the road, leaving the ho to be blessed by Jesus … and admonished to give up her hodom.
God has blessed me, when I see women dressed like what Romer described I feel “yuck.” I find modestly dressed women pretty and attractive, I love gay colored skirts and dresses, floral prints, feminine clothing.
St. Padre Pio said “women who dress immodestly at Mass, when they die and go before God are shown the vocations they destroyed by their immodesty”!
Of course PA and Francis and others know more than does St. Padre Pio or even Our Lady of Fatima, just ask them.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
If the priest has to wear those heavy vestments, the least we can do is appear in modest light cotton clothing. She should have worn her Church clothing then changed at the gym. After all it is THE LORD”S DAY not ours. Show him some respect.
She coulda worn a lightweight full coverage dress over the gym get up. She was lying totally just to push her attention getting charade.
I agree, Anne. I also go directly to the gym after daily Mass. A long, loose-fitting overblouse can provide the needed modesty and proper attire. Would a woman wear a halter top and short shorts going to visit the state capitol, the President, the Governor. the Dean of the college, etc? I doubt it. This also includes proper attire for men, no muscle beach clothing thank you very much.
You are right Camille that men should dress properly at Mass, no shorts please. They are plenty of nice looking light-colored cotton pants that are cooler. One can wear them and change into shorts later. This is out of respect for the Blessed Sacrament and everyone else. I once saw an older man who evidently had not looked in the mirror and his underwear was showing from the back. Competing with teenagers is neither classy or mature.
For those who do not know, the reason I used the term “competing with teenagers” is that in parts of California some teens and younger men wear their pants baggy and low with their underwear hanging out. It is disgusting.
And show the priest some respect, too.
I remember when I was in my thirties going to Communion in Santa Cruz, California, most people were decently dressed in lightweight summer clothing except for one woman ahead of me. She had on a halter top and did not have enough respect for the Lord and the priest to even put a lightweight, cotton blouse over it.
By the way, I am talking about modesty and decency here, not the richness of someone’s garments. If someone cannot afford more expensive clothing we should not judge that person harshly, but I remember a time when even those from large families dressed decently on Sundays, even if their clothing were second hand or homemade. There is nothing wrong with that. My grandparents could not afford expensive clothing for me to go to church as a child, but my clothing was as clean and modest as possible for the season. Sometimes my dress up clothes are second hand, handed down to me by family members quite often. After all, the Lord’s seamless garment was his finest garment, probably woven for him by His Virgin Mother for temple services. In other words, we need to dress our best for the Lord, whatever it be.
Actually, immodest clothing is the more often the most expensive and indecent, take the always sinful bikinis for instance!
Why is it that the Moslems can get their women to dress modestly when the daughters of Mary often refuse to do so? Good question!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Kenneth, you are right about the expensiveness of such things as bikinis and swimsuits and smaller garments. It seems the less the fabric used the more expensive the garment — at least for women and probably for men who buy similar garments too. The fashion industry cheats women who buy such things right and left. And as far as the poor, I live in a fairly hot part of California, but the poor I see begging on the streets are modesty dressed, the men perhaps with a beard but modestly dressed. The men almost always have on long pants and a shirt with at least short sleeves and the women in long pants, long skirts occasionally and modest blouses, winter and summer. It is on rare occasions I see one in shorts. When they buy clothes, they need closthing that will cover them in the evening cool. Some are heavily tatooed but that is about it. The poor of Mexico when I went there, a much hotter climate, were modestly dressed, perhaps not in areas where there was prostitution, but all the other areas, but that is true in all countries. It seems strange to me that many use the poor as an excuse for dressing inappropriately in church.
What year, Anne T. ???
The year of the flood. I let you guess which one. (Lots of laughs).
I agree, immodest dress has no place in church at Sunday Mass. But, what is acceptable today is far from what was acceptable. As a child, I wore a tie and jacket to Mass every Sunday, summer or winter. Today, living in California, it is not unusual to see men and women in “bermuda” shorts and golf shirts. That is the norm on a summer day in our area. Real modesty would suggest that men wear long pants. Women, really should wear about the same, don’t you think. Pants or “bermuda” shorts and proper t shirts. Some even wear skirts since that is the current fashion. I saw someone in church a couple of weeks ago wearing a dress. About the flip flops. Does anyone really wear shoes any more? With casual dress? Since suits and ties are no longer needed at work, except for exceptions, casual dress is the norm. That means that casual becomes forman compared to weekend dress, etc. Give it another thirty years and we will all be back in ties and suits, and no one will have been blocked from heaven because of it.
B.O., there you go again with that committespeek. You seem to want everyone to cover their massive body tatoos, instead of displaying them. Whuzup wit’ dhat?
B.O., you’ve got thirty more years, you figure? That is a ray of hope, dude. That’d put you in company with Methusaleh himself.
You chose who you want to please. Our Lady has said “to Heaven, there are no such things as fashions”! Take your choice and choose your Eternity!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Apparently you think you know more than St. Padre Pio and, yes Our Blessed Mother!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
In the article, Ann Cabiness was more intent in being dressed for going to the gym than going to church otherwise she would have dressed appropriately for going to Mass. Does she really need to, in her words, were a ‘skimpy tank top’ even going to the gym. See where here priorties are.
You are right Pops that she should not wear very skimpy tank tops at a gym if men are there, and if she can afford the price of gym membership, she certainly can afford decent clothing for church.
Nobody looks at her in the gym, so she skimps over to church to get some attention. Notice how she lies about trying not to attract attention. Seems to me to be a kind of slow motion “streaking” operation.
Fortunately at most Roman Catholic parishes practicing tradition exclusively there are posted dress codes. For example men and boys are to wear shirts with neck ties, dress shoes and slacks (not blue jeans). Women on the other hand are to where dresses with sleeves, no cleavage showing, and the skirts/dresses a few inches below the knee in sitting and standing positions. It makes for a whole lot easier for men to concentrate on worshipping our Lord without female attractiveness distractions, it shows our Lord respect, it shows the men that the women are ladies with all the respect that goes along with being a lady! Pray the rosary with devotion.
Jesus did not wear a neck tie.
You are correct Skai. If men wore robes and sandals to Mass that we be following Jesus. If Jesus came back today he probably wouldn’t wear an expensive suit and tie to church. Jesus is perfect but also modest.
The Franciscan Monastery in Washington DC has friars walking around in sandals and robes, no ties. We must report these people to the pope.
Skai, we are not talking about the habits of the religious. Dress codes are merely guidelines for modest dress, not hard and fast rules. Shoes should be safe. Such shoes as flip flops and open-toed shoes are not really safe, especially for children. We all also talking about norms for California here, not the whole country or the whole world.
Ties are cheap too. My husband bought one today for $7.00 on Clearance and used our 20% off coupon on top of that. Wow…we bought a name brand tie, very attractive tie I would add, for so cheap. : ) Or simple Polo shirts are nice too and modest.
I wouldn’t go to a church that is not bonded with the local bishop installed by the Pope and the Supreme Pontiff and lose my soul just so I didn’t have to look at tank tops. One does have eyelids.
Anonymous, the Traditional Mass (Extraordinary Mass) that I attend occasionally has full approval of the bishop and the Vatican. Not every one who goes to a Traditional Mass is going to a SSPX one. If there were no Post Vatican II Mass in my area where people dressed decently or the newer Mass was truly heretical, I would attend such a Mass all the time, or go to an approved Eastern Rite or Anglican Use Mass.
A correction: I meant an APPROVEd Traditional Mass when I said in my second to last line that I would attend such a Mass all the time if necessary.
Anne T. I was not speaking of approved TLM masses or even SSPX. I was speaking of independent Roman Catholic Churches who operate outside of the structure of the Church and without Church approval. When Archbishop Lefebvre , in 1983, insisted that his priests affirm their allegiance to Pope John Paul II, some of the priests refused to do that. They formed the Society of Pius V. Some of them are not involved in Pius V anymore and have gone completely independent. There are others too who have decided for various reasons that the Catholic Church that you and I attend is no longer the True Catholic Church and have begun their own churches. There are people, too, who refuse to be united with the Pope and will not attend approved TLM masses or even SSPX masses. Some believe that Pope John XXIII committed some secret heresy and lost the papacy and that none who followed him are valid popes. Others believe the popes are valid until some point in the future when they will be declared heretics. There is a lot of disagreement among them and it would take a book to explain all the errors and trace the paths of all the schismatic bishops and priests. It is a very interesting topic but beyond the scope of a CCD post.
Thank you, Anonymous, for you clarification.
Please tell me how pleased is Our Lord with a Mass at which an approved Archbishop presides at at which pro-abortion, pro-sodomite politicians are honored by being given front seats and apparently the Most Blessed Sacrament, and at which pro-life, pro-family politicians are attacked because they don’t support citizenship for those who are here illegally!
Do you even know that St. Athanasius the Great, Doctor of the Church was at one time excommunicated by Pope Liberius?
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
If I went to Mass at an SSPX church or one from the Society of St. Pius V, I would not receive communion there.
Anon: Get your facts straight SSPV is sede. SSPX is not
In our parish, a lot of people, men and women, wear shorts in the summer. I don’t find shorts to be immodest. I live in shorts in the summer when I am not at work or in church. More women wear dresses in the summer. Very few men wear coats and ties in the summer. Sometimes the lector and one or two other men. Half the teen boys wear shorts in the summer it seems. I don’t think many adult women in our church dress immodestly at Mass but some of the teen girls wear skimpy outfits in the summer. In the winter most women wear slacks or jeans at Mass as it is cold here. I don’t really like jeans on women as I find them unattractive and skinny jeans are the worst, almost nobody looks good in them unless it is a girl with a perfect figure or a nice looking guy, but I don’t really notice many guys wearing skinny jeans. Very few people at our Masses are show offs. This refers to people that wear fancy expensive clothing. Expensive suits for men or expensive gowns, excessive jewelry, “look at me” hats, for women. So most people are modest in this way also. In general I think most of the people at our Masses dress appropriately and I don’t generally find it distracting. All the people at Mass are my brothers and sisters in Christ so I am just glad they are there and if I don’t like what they are wearing it really isn’t for me to tell people what to do. Just expressing my personal opinion here.
The personal opinion of one who is afraid to give her or his name is worthless!
Kenneth Manuel Valenzuela Fisher (My full name if I were in Mexico where my mother was born)
Those were my comments. Somehow it came up as Anonymous. Mark
PA I understand because when I was visiting the East coast during one summer, in a upscale area, I saw a lot men wear modest dressy shorts, they were longer down slightly below the knee’s. Many wore them with Polo’s but a few with T-shirts.
There are still cooler type of pants that men can wear though with a polo and maybe if they want, they can change after Mass to their dressy shorts…just a suggestion.
I am not saying that women should have to look frumpy. They can look attractive and even beautiful and still be dressed modestly.
Nevertheless, they should not try to attract attention during the mass. This is why Orthodox Jews and Muslims still separate the men from the women during their services.
We publish this guideline in our bulletin
CHURCH ATTIRE … Summer invites lighter attire outdoors. In church, however, dress reverently: wear sleeves, high top shirts, long pants, dresses (women only), closed toed shoes.
Thank you, Fr. Perozich, for your faithfulness to duty.
dresses (women only) Yikes!!!! Who would have thought this day would come?
Tracy it’s good to clarify because of all the weird things people are doing today….crazy but it’s the reality….its sad. Father is a holy priest and I have been blessed to attend Mass at his parish at least visit one a month or so…..his homilies do feed us and it reaches our kids…my kids remember his homilies and are listening and my son loved how this priest speaks the truth. He explains it so well..God bless him.
Why? None of those requirements have anything to do with our faith. What if a homeless person decided to attend and all s/he had were dirty shorts and a tee shirt. Would you kick him/her out? Cover them up so no one could see?
I’ll drink to that, Bob One. I knew you’d eventually describe “love” in your own words: My first parish, St Timothy’s in WLA, pastored by the late great Bishop John Ward would find a homeless tattered drunk sleeping under newspapers against the wall of the walkway around the church … even late in the morning on Sundays. He was left undisturbed by church goers. This went on for many weeks. The Bishop let him be. Obviously the man felt secure and safe there. Bye and bye, we were amazed to see him sitting sober in the pews, and up front, one Sunday. Nobody had gotten in his way while Jesus was calling him, and he was able to get to his feet and be unhindered in his approach to God. I guess, however, that he still had a long way to go because he was not wearing a tie at Mass.
Skai no one has to wear a tie….modesty is just simple not fancy now if you are drawn to wearing tie and dressing up more, then more power to you…but the dress code is a code to the ones who abuse it and need a little friendly reminder to show respect. : )
Now a days woman have nicer sandals, they have heals and are more dainty, I don’t see a problem with that especially when worn with a very simple summer dress or skirt. Summer dresses are very modest, you can buy some that are under $10.00 at certain places, I bought a cute modest skirt, knee length, for under $15. I already had nice tops to go with. Simple and can even be worn at the beach, but I suggest wearing shorts under them in case it’s windy. Oh well Skai..it’s girls stuff…sorry but I wanted to make a point, …the POINT IS we all have personal responsibility to look in the mirror and ask Jesus, is this OK lord….remembering the guidelines. : ) Now if we happen to have a good reason to wear jeans with a dressy top and dressy shoes….as long as it’s modest and not tight…hey don’s see an issue with that either as long as it’s not an ongoing thing…..but hey its none of my business as long as they are not shockingly immodest. : )
Bob one that is irrelevant…not speaking of a homeless person, we are speaking about the regulars. This argument of yours has been tried before and it’s not logical, swaying people from a personal responsibility….if course a homeless person is welcome no matter what…….most of the people at mass are not homeless and the reminder is meant for the ones who are wearing tiny shorts and sleeveless shirts..that is a distraction to many especially to our young sons who may be eying that pretty girl dressed inappropriately. Or even for woman checking out the buff guys dressed in gym clothes.
Bob One I was watching Judge Milan, a reality court show. A man dressed inappropriately to court and she considered that rude and disrespectful, so she made sure she told him that and didn’t trust the guy because he didn’t know how to dress decently for her court.
Isn’t Mass more important?
You consistently post as if *you* are the only individual on the face of the entire planet who has concern for the homeless and the poor. Bob, do you want us to compliment you for taking in a stranger to your home? Then I will compliment you. God bless you Bob One, that is a very good work.
Father Perozich, I have to smile. I would think that only women would wear dresses at your church. If a man dared to wear a dress there he might end up in intensive care or the morgue.
Better that than to end up in hell….but in reality your foolish comment was insulting…Anony you are going to far. You show so much disrespect to this Holy priest that I don’t know why PA is not bashing you for it, like he bashes Skai by insinuating that he is disrespectful to bad will woman but here we have a Holy Priest and you insult him…Anony go to confession. I hate hypocrisy!
My Franciscan priest wears sandles year round. You are focusing on the wrong thing. It is stuff like this that drives good people away from the church.
Anonymous, that is his habit. We are not talking about the habits of relgious. Neither are we talking about the extremely poor, but those who can afford decent clothing.
Anonymous, the poor in my area of California and the poor of Mexico, which is hotter, when I went there are from what I see modestly dressed. The men begging on the streets in my area almost alway have on long pants and a shirt with at least short sleeves, and the women usually have on long pants or a long skirt with a decent blouse, winter or summer. It is rare that I see someone begging in shorts. They cannot afford to buy clothing that exposes themselves to the elements. Stop using them, please, as an excuse for immodest dress. And dress codes are guidelines for modest dress and safe shoes, they are not hard and fast rules. Also, we are not talking about dress codes for the whole country or world but for Californians. Neither are we talking about the habits for religious. Let us use a little “common sense” here, please.
Anne T you are correct…When I use to visit Mexico, attending Mass…..the humble people from small pueblo’s, wore their best…nothing immodest, that is for sure. : )
Decent clothing in America is not expensive….I know have discovered that. We have Ross, Marshalls, TJMAZ etc etc….take a look at their clearance, nice clothing for cheap…now over the years, I have also learned to convert immodest wear into modest one. If the pretty summer dress was perfect in length but immodest on the top, I buy a sweater that can go with it to cover the top, or try to find something stylish to go with. I have learned and still am learning to convert what I can afford to being modest. I am not always perfect at it but I try. So there is no excuse. But yes it’s true, you can find more modest clothes at very expensive stores and the youth stores usually are flooded with very immodest clothes and it was so hard to get my kids to listen. But as time goes on….we are trying to set a better example and still be a cool mum. : ) But when it comes to Mass, we seek to take it up a notch and do better.
But again I am not there to police anyone and I am thankful that the priests are handling it by posting a friendly reminder, which also helps me and my kids stay on top of it. : )
Our priest once said “How would you dress to meet the President of the United States? There is someone greater than the President here.”
If ‘stuff like this’ is what drives good people away, they were not very serious in the first place! Americans can be spotted anywhere. They dress like slovenly, lazy bums with shirts untucked, holes in their jeans (some fashion statement) sneakers the size of Columbus, ridiculous tasteless tee shirts with pot bellies hanging out and/or rear ends half covered, men wearing hats backwards just like their heads and never taking them off in restaurants or movie theaters, ad infinitum, and these are not poor people. Sorry if I sound hypercritical, but I was raised at a time when one dressed in one’s best to worship the Lord and one wore one’s worst when one was doing dirty jobs. The only time many people dress up now is for once in a life time things like weddings and funerals. You can say ‘it doesn’t matter’ all you want to but it does. It says reams about who you are and how you view yourself and others and it speaks volumes about how important something is to you. Before we went out the door, my dad would say, ‘remember, you’re representing the family!’ (in the early sixties I was dressing like a beatnik because it expressed what I was about then…not about family) But my dad’s words paid off because I came round to seeing what he meant…it wasn’t to show off wealth (fortunately, as we had none!) nor was it to get attention. I dressed better finally, because I took pride in who I was and where I came from…I made my dad proud. I had forgotten that little phase in my life, but it has been with me through many fashion changes. What I wear is never out because it was never in, and I can wear (and do) the same skirt for 15 years and it still gets compliments. The reason I am going on about this is because I’m tired of the flimsy, boring, poorly constructed clothes people are accepting and paying way too much money for because no one teaches them about why what they wear matters and what makes clothes work for them. As I’ve mentioned before, I have a deg.in fashion design and can tell you why minimal clothes are in. They can cut out twice as many slim fit jeans from a piece of fabric as so=called granny jeans that give breathing space and a comfortable fit. Slim fit that strangle your calves, for example and punish your buns and charge you twice as much because they’re ‘in’. That’s why they spend so much on marketing so they can con uninformed young minds that this will make them ‘cool’ and hip looking. That’s nothing new, of course, but the quality is unbelievably shoddy anymore, and they’re paying slaves working in dark, airless sweatshops next to nothing to produce and making obscene profits . Then these same ‘hip’ designers and clothing execs that produce this garbage and use young people in sexually explicit poses to pimp in glossy magazines for them, show up at glam shows and prance around like little princes and princesses with no shame or remorse. But, getting back to my original premise, the kids come to church looking like beach bums and two bit whores when in reality they’ve probably paid a fortune for and are only aping the fashionazis they see at rock concerts and in slick ads. They think they’re just hip and cool, not vulgar or sleezy looking at all. I don’t blame the kids at all. But where are their parents?
Does anyone teach their kids anything anymore? I don’t mean any of you here!! I taught school for 11 years and there were dress codes then, thank God, so I didn’t have to deal with what I see now. I’d be going bonkers. I’m just enjoying a good rant. Phew. I never say anything like this to anyone else but my sister. You’re so lucky! haha (I promise you, I would never hurt a young person’s feelings by pointing out their underwear is showing through the rip in the seat of their $100 jeans or that bra straps look rather unbecoming with a $45 strapless tank top!
Boy are you going to get in trouble with the Hate Crimes crowd, imagine telling “men” not to wear dresses!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
lol, Kenneth It shows a want of sympathy does it not?
Mr’ Fisher it is not a common thing to see men wear dresses especially in faith based situations…it’s not common, I’m sure there are those rare occasions but rare. So it’s not a growing problem in church attendee’s, as of now. Praise God!
Respect for the Blessed Sacrament does not only apply to women. Men as well
should dress appropriately for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Sandals, no socks,
rumpled shorts and tank tops are not the appropriate attire for mass. For some reason, the priests are afraid to address how to dress for mass. In decent attire is very distracting at church. We attended a Latin Mass last Sunday and were so pleased to see that the pastor had a sign at the entrance to the church with suggestions on proper dress for mass. How refreshing.
Even some Extraordinary Ministers dress immodestly! Pastors are silent on this issue – do they have low T?
Jack, if that happens, you can talk to the head of the Eucharistic Ministers and request that he or she put in a reasonable dress code, or mention a specific incidence charitably and ask that he or she talk privately to that person. If it was a woman who offended, and the director of the Eucharistic Ministers is a man, he can ask a more mature lady to talk privately with the woman, or vice versa.
Unless it is a Traditional parish, you are dreaming!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Kenneth, I had to do just that thing one time at a post Vatican II Mass, and it WAS corrected.
The Eucharistic Ministers at that particular church do have a decent dress code, and it was a one time accident. I do not want to go into detail here.
Skai, Your comment Jesus did not wear a neck tie only shows your smart-alec personality and pride. It only helps the rebels in bonding together to heed their causes and not show respect for our Lord. Most respectable ladies appreciate men wearing shirts, slacks, ties, dress shoes, and jackets if the temperatures permit it, dressing modestly as Jesus did. Most respectable ladies would follow the perfect example given to us by Mary His Mother and dress respectfully in His presence wearing modest dresses, not pants or immodest attire. Unfortunately many of today’s modern women (including catholics) want to be like men and dress like men, except for they do like to dress immodestly to attract men too. Trying to attract men in church only distracts men from their purpose of being there, to worship God. How do you think God feels about that? You see, worshipping God is all about Him, not about men and women.
Jean, I rather appreciate Skai’s comments, pointing out that Jesus didn’t wear neckties. I think he is tapping into a basic idea that modest and respectful attire is culturally dependent. I lived in rural India for a time, and attended mass regularly. At the church, everyone removed their shoes before entering: the religious brothers, the nuns, the elderly, the young. They said it was a sign of disrespect to bring dirty shoes into the house of God.
While a Catholic Church in California can reasonably expect men and women to have closed toes shoes or shirts that cover their shoulders while at mass, a Catholic Church in pastoral Indian can expect you to remove your shoes before celebrating the mass.
Your argument above is nonsense. There is absolutely no comparison between being immodestly dressed for Church and taking your shoes off. They do the same in most Asian countries including Thailand!
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
Kenneth, that’s EXACTLY my argument. In Asia and Thailand, it is respectful to be barefoot indoors, and so it is respectful to be barefoot in Church. In America it is the opposite.
I would assume you would find it disrespectful if a woman showed up topless to mass, and yet, in 1984, Blessed Pope John Paul II celebrated a mass in Papua New Guinea in which one of the lectors was a topless woman with a painted chest – a perfectly respectful way of dressing in her milieu. Hence my original assertion that modest attire is culturally dependent.
A lot of frustration could be averted if we spoke with each other and did not make the assumption that the other is trying to be disrespectful or full of nonsense.
Thank you, Anne T, respect and a little common sense are a wonderful things!!
You are welcome, Thomas Edward Miles.
At least they’re showing up.
Not a good enough excuse, good cause, for inappropriate attire. I am tired of hearing it. It is desrespectful, and can be sacriligious and mortally sinful if very extreme. More casual clothing can be worn at weekday Masses of course, but it still should be modest for the weather and place.
You are right Anne T….its not hard to put on something decent…doesn’t have to be all that formal either. There are cute knee length skirts that are feminine and pretty. They are also easy to remove if one has to change after, especially if they have something else to do after Mass. I play tennis in my skirts, what I do is put on slim shorts under them just in case the wind blows them up. I wear my tennis or comfy shoes after Mass…
But I do not seek to police anyone (unless it’s something really offensive of course, but even then I use prudence and pray that their pastor will address that issue) because sometimes we may never know. On a few occasions, I had to wear my dressy sandals with my skirt…..because on one occasion, the day before my flat closed toe shoes (they were the only ones I owned) had gotten the best of them, they tore open on the side and I didn’t have time to shop for new ones, so I wore my best dressy sandals…….I could care less if someone gave me the looks. They should be focused on the Mass. : )
That’s right, Anne. (wink wink) Actually, though I sound like I must sit and view what everybody is wearing, I seldom do, in fact. It’s only the really deliberate abuses that are meant to attract attention that get my pulse overheated. Most women dress beautifully and modestly and men, as well. But we do get the occasional strapless, disco skin tight dresses and the bare feet in scruffy floppies now and then. Not enough to warrant blast the sirens and blinking red and blue lights of fashion police, but definitely enough to complain here. And as for how Jesus dressed, I always like to point out (yet again) that he wore a spotless and seamless, handwoven tunic that His mother probably wove for Him. I see Him as being so beautiful…I mean, He was sinless and full of the Holy Spirit…that just looking at Him must have taken one’s breath away. He would have been full of light. Think of Padre Pio and other saints, and they were just a shadow of what Jesus would have looked like. His eyes would have been like deep pools of love and welcome. His hands elegant and expressive. He would had to have been utterly compelling and unforgetable. I doubt anyone even noticed what He was wearing, but I have no doubt His clothes were immaculate and well-made because our beloved Mother and all the other wonderful women who loved our Lord, would have seen to it His clothing was mended and washed to the very best of their ability. Those who loved Him and served Him would have never let Him have ragged or dirty clothes. How could anyone even think it?
I really do not pay attention at Mass to what anyone else is wearing either, ladies, unless it is extreme, or I see cleavage when I am looking at the Host.
asking out of pure curiosity (no “gotcha!” attempts here), but why can one be more casually attired for weekday Masses?
Many people have to come in their work clothes.
for one thing, or they might have to go out shopping and want to be more comfortable. It is still best to avoid shorts for church.
Of course. I wasn’t thinking.
So called good cause,
Again I ask, just what is your good cause. Showing up in attire that shows disrespect for Our Lord is sacrilegious. Of course you in your good cause probably don’t even believe in such a thing as sacrilegious!
Kenneth M. Fisher
If the soldiers keeping vigil at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier wore tank tops, shorts, baseball caps and flip-flops what would people say? Or if they joked around, leaned on their guns, chewed gum? Americans would probably be outraged at the disrespect and at the disregard for tradition. Isn’t God worth outward signs of respect? The problem is people really don’t believe. Or their idea of God is that He is “too big to care” about such “little things.” But anyone who has been in any kind of healthy relationship – especially marriage – knows that it’s the little things that do matter, that show how we feel about the other person, that strengthens bonds. You pay attention to these little things not just because it might matter to the other person, but because it also shapes your character and reveals what kind of a person you are – a person who is not selfish and can see beyond comfort and convenience for oneself.
God bless, yours in Their Hearts,
Kenneth M. Fisher
I occasionally wear a decently cut tank top, but I cover it with an overblouse or light cotton sweater that is cool. These are garments especially designed for that. I forget what they are called. I have have several of them.
THREE HIP HIP HOORAYS FOR MAMAK!!!
MamaK, right on!!
That is a great example Mama K. Loved it. I don’t like how some here stoop so low to bash good pastors who do post a charitable reminder on dressing modest. I would think many would appreciate it, there is nothing wrong with our priest giving us guidance and care…plus it also teaches our kids to honor that. If they try to fight us, as kids do sometimes because that is what teens do, at least if our pastor reminds them…well it sure is a blessing for any parent.
The reminder posted is a blessing, it shows that our priests care and do take the time to give direction. Now if some decide to dishonor that, well it’s on them. They can’t say no one ever told them.
Beautiful MamaK, absolutely beautiful! I applaud you and the way you put the message across. I wish I had your keen insight! To think how great respect our Tomb of the Unknown soldier guards honor these mortal men, imagine the love and sincere respect each of us owes to our Creator, no matter what slight discomfort it may befall on us pampered sinners! Our Lord suffered and died a excruciatingly painful, exhausting, and ignominious death on His holy cross for us after being beaten, scourged, and carrying His very heavy holy cross. This sad, awful event didn’t happen within a 45-60 time like people spend in church one Sunday at a time, but His agony lasted for cruel hours. Think about God, worship God, focus on God, not about oneself. He is focused on us, for if He even stopped thinking about each and everyone of us, we would just disappear! Thankyou again MamaK, spoken like a true catholic and leader!
Great posts, Mama K and Jean.
what is alarming is when a “gay” man parades his gleaming muscles and bronzed, husky frame…this is also wrong, not just for you ladies…a man can be a real temptation, even showing his curly locks and loony perm and pearly whites can be a distraction…
Buddha is NOT laughing. Stop trolling.
How many of us whom if (in general) we received an invitation from the President of the US and First Lady to attend a dinner wouldn’t dress appropriately in classy clothing like a conservative tuxedo and modest evening dress? We’d do it out of respect and not wanting to look out of place with attire of lesser nobility. Well just think about it, the President of the US is only a person of equal value in the eyes of God to you. The President may have loftier earthly credentials, but that doesn’t mean you are further to God. When we attend a Roman Catholic Holy Mass we are with the Creator of the world, not a fellow man of dust like ourselves created by God. Then shouldn’t we show even greater respect for our Lord and Savior who died for us? Other than taking your weekly spending money away from you through taxes, what life saving has the President done recently for you? God died for all of our sins. We owe him our best. Remember what He said in His parables about those invited to weddings but weren’t properly dressed? They were thrown out of the wedding before it even started. So we owe God our best dress and appearance. He is not just some good old boy, He is our God and our Creator, He is the highest of Royalty and deserves the best, it is the least we can do, and one way of showing Him our greatest respect for Him. That is the way it used to be a few generations ago, the temperatures were high, but parishioners dressed-up respectfully even in un-air-conditioned churches and automobiles/horse and buggies.
How did they dress a century before last century?
Another, great post. Marlene the Bible shows that Our Lord DID respect dress codes as you mentioned.
I love to wear a halter top…white cotton mini-dress, which really highlights my killer tan!…if you have it, flaunt it…just be appropriate…have custody of the eyes
I find it sad because in the summer there always used to be standing room only at Sunday Mass. Now there are a lot of empty seats. It seems that young women in the 20-30 age group have disappeared. There are some young men but years ago there were a lot more young women then men. The number of people getting married in our Church has really dropped. Last year we had 14 weddings. When my son had first communion there were 2 groups for a total of 90 students. There were also 90 students in his confirmation class. This year we had about 60 first communions and 60 confirmations. Most of the families with children are in their 30’s or 40’s. When my son went to Catholic Grade school there were 2 groups for each class but now most classes only have 1 group. The tuition has gone up but since 2007 wages in our area have been stagnant and the Catholic school enrollment keeps going down.
Janine Moto, we all have done or do silly and stupid things when we are young, and baking in the sun is one of them. I never wore a bikini in public, but I did suntan in my backyard behind a fence and go to the beach and wear a swimsuit. My grandmother had told me baking in the sun would ruin my skin, but I thought she just did not want me to get darker, and I wanted that golden tan. Luckily, I found out in enough time that she was right. I saw an older woman at the beach, who probably was younger than I am now, and her skin was like shoe leather and her face deeply wrinkled. Also, I saw a picture of an actress in her fifties who use to tan on the European beaches and her face was horribly wrinkled already. She probably had an expensive face left later — something most of us cannot afford and did not want to have. On the other hand, I met women in their fifties who had beautiful, line free skin for their age. I asked one how she did it, and she told me, “I never let the sun touch my skin. I wear a hat wherever I go. She also wore blouses with long sleeves. Well, I am a senior and have been told that I have good skin for my age. One reason is that I stopped sun tanning, had oily skin when younger, stopped smoking cigarettes in enough time and never took any illegal drugs and started moiturizing my skin and wearing sun block during the summer when I had to garden or be outdoors a lot. Long sleeves are just too hot for me, but the sunblock does wonders if one gardens in the early morning or the evening. I guess what I am telling you is that if you have got it and flaunt it, you will not have it very long. Cover up a little more, and you will not only be more modest, but you will not look like an old prune before your time. Even the Asian women in my area wear hats most of the time, and many of the long sleeves in the summer.
Correction to last sentence — “and many of them wear long sleeves in the summer.”
And wear sunglasses. I did some sun damage to my eyes when gardening without sunglasses.
And I will add that I am not talking about beautiful old woman like Mother Teresa, who wrinkles came from a lifetime of helping others.
I ran into a young man who, as a baby in India, was held by Bl Mother Teresa.
janine Moto I almost cried when I read your comments…..I thought that we are to model after our Lady as best we can, even if one struggles with vanity, we can still deny ourselves that temptation and offer up during mass for our salvation…..and your comments made me sad because they are the opposite of whom we are to model after. : (
Anne your advice is cute that you gave to janine…you are sweet. God bless you.
At my former parish, I would attend first saturday devotion to the immaculate heart of the blessed virgin mary. I was very honored and pleased to be able to make reparation for the sins against her. During the summer months, there were weddings in the Church immediately before (and sometimes running later!) the devotion was to start. The exhibition of flesh was extraordinary (perhaps ms moto was there, I don’t know for sure ;)). I’ll spare you the details. I still find it amazing that the pastor could allow this to go on? How could other not find this an offense against the holy eucharist? I had a similar experience attending a teen confirmation. I was again astounded at the lack of modesty in the young women. And, with the Bishop in attendance. I was mortified.
Now, I am an old married man who knows the custody of the eyes. The young men maybe not. Women — You are in the house of God. Christ IS present in body, blood, soul and divinity. Don’t cause others to sin thru your pride.
Janine, read my:48/July 23 post. Just because you may have it doesn’t mean everyone else wants to see it. It might surprise and amaze you that people actually want to think about Jesus and meditate on the Eucharist at Mass and are not in the least interested in your suntan…which you’re really going to regret when you’re in your later years and skin cancer and wrinkles take over. Be careful and God bless.
Dana your post from July 25 are cute and funny and true. It made me smile again because her comments made me sad. I must admit, I am those hip mum, who like to show off my curves and well not to get into details, I have offered up those temptations.
There is this very pretty girl friend of my son’s, she is 16….I was always impressed on how modest and pretty she dressed. She looks like a model, tall, blue eye’s blond and dressed up truly modest and wears dresses to school sometimes too and when she would hang out with us. I was so encouraged by her good example.
Dana you would be surprised how many of our elders dress immodest too. Dressing modest is also young and IN!
Well, you’re living in California, too, Abeca, and you have a lot more pressure to look good and young! There are lots of good looking people out there with all the healthy food and sunshine. Here we’re all mole people that come out of our winter hybernation with blinking, beady little eyes and pasty white skin (no sun damage here!) and wobble around for a few weeks and those that have survived winter ice storms and spring floods, frisk into summer with shorts to our knees, or skirts to our ankles (that’s the women, naturally) and shorts to our knees or pants to our ankles (the men) and the Amish pretty much where black wool all year round with no ill affects. I wouldn’t be surprised by your immodest elders, Abeca, because many of our boomers never left childhood and now well into an extended one with no return ticket. (just kiddin’) I should talk! Keep dressing just like you do…I’m sure it’s lovely and interesting. Unto thine own self be true.
Dana I enjoyed your comments, I almost laughed so hard that I almost fell off my chair. You are funny but it’s true what you said too, that is why I laughed because I kept saying how did she know?
It’s true living in California the pressure is huge but I thought that was an issue everywhere….well like I tell my hubby, I only dress up and look good for him…keeping in mind respect of our Lord and His approval too. But I do have teens too, so yes I’m sure some very conservative mum’s probably don’t like me wearing Jeans and listening to my kids music…..I don’t know, I rather try to reach my kids that way especially now because of how things are. One of my good friend’s, she is not Catholic anymore but is now attending those mega churches, she never wears dresses so I use to have tea gatherings with mandatory requirements that we wear dresses or skirts(just to get her to wear a dress or skirt and it worked) …the point is to get women to enjoy their femininity more and we also discuss scripture or we raise one another up in the Lord. Another friend had a Catholic mum’s gathering, we would have tea or coffee and lots of sweet treats (oh no, like we need them, whew, but I sure love baking) and recommend good Catholic books to one another but it was to support one another while raising our kids.
But as time went on….I don’t do too much social time anymore, my family really keeps me busy and so did my ministries.
Dana I don’t really care to wear makeup, I am more of a natural girl. So I am always taken aback when I see an elder wear tons of eye shadow and cake on the foundation…but that is their prerogative I suppose. : )
Well sweets….I am just thankful that our priests post that sweet reminder to think about what we wear to Mass….that is all…I don’t care what they wear or how but as long as they are modest. It’s interesting but all year long, we have a sweet grandma wearing Jeans with super modest long sleeve blouses…by all means that is fine too..she didn’t offend me nor distracted me away from my worshiping our Lord. : )
I read that they are having a heat wave in Wales (or some such place), and the boys are not allowed to wear shorts — so some kid passed out from heat exhaustion.
His mother had him wear a kilt to school the next day, and now all the moms are jumping on the bandwagon, because the GIRLS get to wear skirts and are more comfortable.
Leave it to Wales to be so avant garde or whatever…off-kilter? :)
Sam yes I understand the heat wave can be really awful. I asked my son what he thought on this, he said that usually most parishes have fans on and air conditioners, hopefully, so boys can wear Khaki pants, which can be cool and polo’s are cooler too in the summer. What my son does, since he is slim, he wears his guys shorts under his Khaki pants so after mass, if we plan to go to the park or play tennis, he removes his pants and his shorts are just under.
My son said it wasn’t hard. I guess in today’s society we have become more lax and casual so the guidelines in modesty can also be casual and modest too.
My son did say that he thought that the dressy shorts that guys wear are more modest than girls wear, so he didn’t see anything wrong if a guy wore them but he can see why girls shouldn’t wear shorts because of the obvious reason he stated.
Watch any old television programs or movies, from before the mid 1960’s, and you will see how the average American dressed. It was refined and modest. With the hippie movement and the Playboy mentality this all changed. The majority of people dress like slobs and beatnicks when they go to Mass. The Black community, though, still dresses for Sunday services, but not the average American. Over thirty years ago, Ken Fisher offered posters to be placed in churches to remind the faithful to be modest when attending Mass. I ordered several posters, and the other associate priest tore them up. Another pastor said he did not care how the people dressed for Mass, just so they came, and immediately the dress code was out. As long as the Mass is treated as a bar-be-cue, or an informal meal or picnic, these horrible practices will continue. I have preached about this, but it all falls on deaf ears since the majority of Catholics are now born again Protestants. These members of the American Patriotic Church march to their own drummer, and have not listened to or obeyed any dictates of the Roman Catholic Church for many decades. As a result, Our Lady’s warning that many souls will go to hell is ignored.
Fr. Karl, I am glad you brought up the Black community. At the Protestant black church in my area the men all wear Sunday suits or slacks and mostly long-sleeved white shirts. The women wear dresses or skirts and blouses with sleeves. Hats are out, probably because most of them are a hindrance in a car seat.
Anne T, you are correct about that.
Fr. Karl I am saddened that the other associate priest tore up the guidelines. Wow this is why our church is in such disarray. Why did this priest feel the need to do that. It shows pride on his part and disrespectful to you Father Karl. I am so sorry for his bad behavior. He shows no interest in unity. I wonder what makes him think that his way is better. He took it upon himself without using any discernment or prudence on his part.
Well folks we must display a certain level of compassion now more than ever because we have priests who refuse to lead their flock. How can we blame the flock if they aren’t being lead. A priest doesn’t have to directly tell anyone how to dress for Mass but he can certainly post some friendly guidelines for everyone as a whole. No harm in that.
If in the courtroom ,they expect a certain level of dress and respect when appearing in court, or meeting the president or for graduation or a special gathering…..then there is no harm to post charitable guidelines either for Mass.
And black ladies used to wear hats all the time at church and other places. I once knew a black lady who had eleven children, was trim and slim, and she wore a hat whenever she was outdoors, even though she was brown-skinned. She looked half her age.
Oh, and she always wore long sleeves and a long skirt at her mostly outdoor job. Her niece dressed that way also. Evidently they belonged to a denomination with a strict dress code. It did have its rewards.
In this HUGE imbroglio developing over extended discussions of what IS or IS NOT modest attire when attending the HOLY SACRIFICE of the MASS, I’m somewhat reluctant to horn in with my comments, BUT when has that stopped me before? So here goes. I believe that WOMEN in general have the most responsibility in this regard. And that’s because in the main men are the more AGGRESSIVE and QUICK to respond to displays of stages of undress on women. Isn’t that kind of one of the laws of sexual attraction 101? And back in the various days when women appeared to be being brought up more modestly than now, there seemed to be more common sense in these matters. But there’s ONE development in immodesty in women’s dress today that I’ve noticed that is DEFINITELY in vogue. And that’s the propensity for so many women to EXPOSE a lot of their BREASTS. Never seen anything like it. And it makes no matter WHERE you go. I live near the San Fernando Valley in California, in a small city of around 125,000 and it’s like LIKE AN EPIDEMIC of exposure, seemingly like “how far can we go, girls?” Maybe it’s an expression of liberal secular feminism, not sure. But are any of the women doing this AWARE of how much temptation they can generate among men? However, in the Catholic Church I am a member of, the pastor is vigilant concerning this and regularly posts messages around the church to be aware of how they dress @ Mass, be repectful in God’s space. But, once again, this addiction that so many women, young and older, have to display their breastly wares approaches epidemic proportions. I remember reading about how the women in the ancient country of Minoa went around like this, but worse. They had clothes that had strategic parts opened up for all to see and you wouldn’t have to be a rocket engineer to understand for what purpose. Is this type of degeneracy the NEXT STAGE in our collapsing civilization? I pray not. And most aware Christians and Catholics know what this type of sexual degeneracy parallels. Just look around @ the state of morality in the U.S. today. Btw, in New York City, if women or men want to walk the streets totally naked, the law there permits it. Google it if you doubt what I post. May God help us and soon. VIVA CRISTO REY! AND GOD BLESS ALL, MARKRITE
It is weird, I went to the gas station today with my wife and went in to pay for it. My wife was with me. After we got out and were driving home she commented on how awful the clerk looked. She was an extremely well built woman with dyed blue hair and skin tight clothing. I agreed with my wife and told her that it almost made me sick to look at her and that she looked like she was for sale. Went home to get my dad his supper and watched the news. They had the news about that man in Cleveland and how he pleaded guilty. I actually started to cry. I thought of how those women were tortured and raped and abused for all those years. After I stopped crying I started ranting and raving about how evil he was and I couldn’t understand how people could be so evil and do that to another person. I thought my dad would have thought that I had gone crazy, as I don’t act like that, but he just kind of sat there in a stupor and didn’t really react at all. After the news, he was fooling around with the stations and asked if I wanted to watch anything. I said I wanted to see if the Pope was on so we put on EWTN. There was Mass on. My dad said after 2 minutes, if anything else was on. He always does this when I put on EWTN, he likes war movies with noise and killing (It drove my mom crazy.) and I usually let him put on what he wants but this time I said no that I really wanted to watch the Mass. In a couple minutes he was asleep. So I watched the Mass and such a feeling of peace came over me, it was like God was calming me down.
PA, what still has not been explained about that Cleveland case, is why the women never kicked a hole in the wall and escaped. Any idea?
It takes time to do that Skai. They feared for their lives. They were restrained. It is tragic but if we knew the numbers of women who are kept in a type of slavery, even in the US, we would be stunned.
PA, it is not that difficult to kick a hole in the wall of a house. Nobody ever thinks of it.
What do you ladies think of Skai’s question here? Any idea?
Umm maybe it was brick?
Nobody ever thinks about that. They just want to blame it on the victim instead.
At least one attempted to escape and was caught and beaten. They were chained up and locked in the attic and the basement.
Why were you upset PA, according to your gay ideology this guy in Cleveland was just a typical heterosexual man, I mean you probably think Skai and me did the same thing on any given Saturday night
Well, it is tempting to try to bring the house down with all manner of jokes that could kick up at this point, but I’ll hold back.
Of course he is not typical, Canisius. You are married Canisius so maybe you spend time with your family on Saturday night or even work. I used to work on Saturday nights. Skai probably relaxes with his dogs and has a few brews.
Evidently my comment sailed right over your head
PA, “I actually started to cry”: Well, dude, you need to take one of those manhood courses from richard rohrshack or something like that … you know, where you go into the forest, light up a big bonfire and then everyone runs and jumps naked through it.
The idea of Skai jumping naked through a bonfire is not my idea of breakfast info…
Gentleman please….I don’t understand all this insensitivity. What happened to those young women is no joking matter. We can’t explain how much sexually abused women can be controlled especially when they are young and full of fear. Also making fun of PA when he is showing compassion, is not funny, I don’t really care for PA’s dissent on many things but to poke fun at him for having compassion for those young ladies, I don’t see that very appealing.
Well, Markrite, I guess the laws of sexual attraction 101 don’t apply to me. As you can tell from my last post, I find such exposure disgusting. I find women dressed modestly in floral prints and colors to be so pretty. Many older women are so pretty as they dress so nice. I always felt like this since I was little. I always liked pretty women and girls and women and loved it when they talked to me and paid attention to me. It seemed like when I was little all girls looked pretty to me (but as you say, they didn’t dress like today.) But my mom always told the story of when I was 3 or so years old that we went to one of my dad’s client’s home and she was all dressed in black and when we went into her house everything was black and I wouldn’t go into the house. When I went into the car I kept going on that she was a witch and that I was afraid of her.
PA at time your posts are actually physically painful to read….
I wonder if some of these gays are kind of sociopathic in that they seem incapable of healthy empathy.
Back at ya’.
peter, why are you worried about clothes? Don’t you live and work in the Castro which is clothing optional?
PS – I never saw anybody in church dressed as bad as that woman and that is over 50 years of Mass every Sunday and lots of daily Masses too. (Nobody dresses bad at daily Mass.)
Mark PA. I think you sensed right about that woman. It is all right to dress in all black if it is becoming, but having one’s house decorated in all black sounds diabolical. More than likely that woman was into something worse than most witchcraft. She was probably into Satanism.
And most Masses I have attended, whether Post Vatican II, Traditional or Eastern Rite, the majortiy of the people have been decently dressed. It is just now and then that one sees a person who is dressed inappropriately. Perhaps that is why some priests do not want to bother with dress codes. Neverthelss, from what I am heard from others, their experiences have not been good and a dress code is needed.
You are correct Anne….it is the few that dress inappropriate, they are the reason that a pastor of his parish needs to post that friendly reminder or have a charitable homily on it to help good people discern better. We shouldn’t let pride get to us when a priest takes the time to guide his flock, even if he is meaning to direct it to just a few, he doesn’t want to embarrass the person or persons he is trying to convey the message to, so he may try first directing it to the whole parish but if that doesn’t’ work….then lets keep our priests in our prayers so they can find the courage to be prudent in addressing it.
Anne T, she was an artist of sorts and very bohemian. I guess when one is a child they are afraid of certain people. I remember when I was older that she had bright red dyed hair.
I meant “from what I HAVE heard”. Also, I meant a dress code is needed in SOME churches, those with a problem but not necessarily all.
Pope Francis just announced in a special broadcast to the Church that the most important by far of all things is to wear a suit and tie to Mass … ok, not really :)
I am impressed by his comments in Brazil. We really need more outreach to the poor. We have a terrible shortage of priests and this limits us. I think a lot of protestant groups in the US have sent missionaries to Catholic countries and try to get people to join their sects. They focus on Jesus and helping out each other. They also have an edge because the ministers take their wives and they work as teams and seem to have more concern for families. It seems to me that these groups go after Catholics to convert and don’t really try to convert many non-Christians. How many Muslims have these protestant sects converted?
PA, helping the poor is a foundation for building the Church, but only to prepare a bonding that facilitates the satisfying of the spiritual needs. Man lives not by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God: Does this make any sense to you, PA? When you go and spout anti-Magisterial positions, you are preventing some souls from hearing every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Do you realize this?
That is so true, Skai…it’s what we keep saying here but only Pope Benedict Emeritus seems to get that to evangelize you have to know your faith and not just head out willy nilly to spread the good news and not know what the news is. It’s not emotions we should be sharing but truth. Was it Thoreau who said it’s good to dream castles in the sky, now put foundations under them? Because people have become so lazy, they think it should all be so easy…google it, fast check it, print it out. You can’t fake it when you’re evangelizing. It takes time and self discipline. The Holy Spirit sets us on fire, but to keep it burning we have to fuel it with lots of ‘sawn wood’. My mother-in-law used to say “You must be thinking pretty hard. I thought I smelled wood burning.”
It is up to the Pastor and Parish Priest to state from the pulpit and in the parish bulletin that people must dress appropriately. No shorts, or jeans, or short skirts, t-shirts with advertising, or low cut or sleeveless tops.
Men and teens are just as abusive as women.
There is no excuse about the weather with air conditioning or fans.
We should be going to Church to worship God, not make a statement to all others in attendance.
“Receiving a special honor was a couple Francis met on Saturday after Mass at Rio’s cathedral; they had brought him their anencephalic baby daughter to be blessed. Francis invited them to participate in the offertory procession on Sunday, at which the father wore a t-shirt that read “Stop abortion.” ” The father was then dragged to the dungeon by his ears by giant nuns sent to punish him severely for violating the suit and tie commandment :)
Skai, that kind of T shirt I hardily approve — though you are joking about the last part. Actually, I have worn similar pro life T shirts to Mass before or after being on a pro-life chain. As I said before, dress codes are guidelines not hard and fast rules. There are always reasonable exceptions. Enjoyed your joke, though. (Lots of laughs.)
Neverthelsee, I do keep such pro life T shirt wearing for special pro life Masses, or times when there is a Life Chain in that area.
I have worn a pro-life tee shirt to Mass too. Almost always I wear a dress shirt and pants that I wear to work.
When I was in college I almost always wore a dress shirt to classes. Must have been the Catholic school influence. No tie though, just wear them to work and that’s it.
Ha. That was an ending Alfred Hitchcock would have loved, no?
Both men and women should dress to honor the Lord at Church. It is HIS home and we are guests at HIS banquet. Dress appropriately: Mt 22:11-13.
Set the example for others who inappropriately dress like they are going to a ball game or the beach. Shorts, jeans, t-shirts with advertising, sleeveless and immodest clothing does not show due respect to God. (And might be taking attention away from God by distracting others.)
On YouTube see: “Dressing Modestly (especially at Mass)” – by an EWTN Priest.
CCC: ” 2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.”
Well, Canisius, that wasn’t the only reason I cried. I was thinking of my mother. I never heard my dad ever utter a cross word to my mother. He treated her like a queen. My mom waited on my dad hand and foot. Not long after my mom died I found a paper with words of a song written on it. It was from a record that I had as a teen and played many times. It was a sad song by Petula Clark. My mom had written the words on a paper and saved it all those years. I wondered if maybe she listened to my records when I was in school. Something happened a week or so ago that upset me. When I wrote the post about crying I was also crying about something else. It had occurred to me that my mom wasn’t my dad’s first love. I think that he loved the bottle more and she came in second. Now she is gone and I come in second. I wonder when she fell from being first. I remember my mom saying often that she didn’t know if there was a hell. That maybe hell was here on earth. So it is painful for me to think of how my mom suffered. She was a loyal wife for 67 years and didn’t deserve such pain. My mom never said a word of complaint to me about any of this so I was fairly unaware. My dad doesn’t talk much, which is odd because he would go to the bars and was a great storyteller. But ever once in a while he tells me about this woman or that woman propositioning him. When he was young he was movie star handsome. From what other people have said, some people thought he cheated on my mom but I never believed it. But these tales about women seem strange to me. He even said that a young nun flirted with him in the mid-seventies. Maybe it is just made up. But anyway, yes I have cried thinking about what my mom might have gone through. Later that night I called my best friend and when I started to tell him what I was thinking I cried and cried. He had never heard me cry so I figured that he would think I was crazy. So yes, Canisius, maybe there is something wrong with me to cry and something wrong with being like this. So just more to make you feel even more sick about how queer I am.
I always felt bad for my mom because she never had a daughter. I think my brother was her favorite. I think my brother is pretty close to perfect. But my brother went away to Lehigh University in 1964 when he was 17. After he graduated he lived near home for a little over a year and then he was off to Vietnam. After Vietnam he moved down South and has been there since. So my parents didn’t see him that much. Usually they would go down for Easter and around my nephew’s birthday. My sister-in-law and the kids would usually come up to PA for a month in the summer and my brother would come up for a week, and then they would come up to visit my parents for a day and in November they would come for the day for Thanksgiving. Later they didn’t travel as much and for a while my brother didn’t come up so they didn’t see each other for years at a time. I was close to my mom growing up. It was funny, I would come home from school and sometimes tell her what we did in history or geography, which were my favorite subjects. I would always ask my mom what her favorite class was in school and she always said recess. Later I found out that she never liked history or geography in school but she always listened to me go on about what went on in school and never said anything. Later when my dad didn’t drive anymore, I would see my parents almost every day. Dad was usually asleep but I would visit my mom and go on about anything and everything. Yes, I am something of a drama queen. I hope I didn’t annoy my mom to0 much. Still wish my mom had a daughter that she could share her thoughts with but she was very close to a couple of her nieces and loved girl talk. Also she was very close to her best friend, who lived across the street from her for 55 years. It was so comforting to me when my neighbor’s two daughters told me how sweet my mom was and how she was like a second mom to them too. So it makes me glad to know that my mom got her girl talk in. It is so weird, after mom died, I noticed that all her bath towels were pink. OK, Canisius don’t gag here.
“Churches grapple with clothing…”
What a headline! :)