The following comes from a Sept. 24 posting on Whispers in the Loggia.
The rollout is on – three years since its $57.5 million acquisition, the centerpiece plans for Crystal Cathedral’s transformation into the seat of the 1.3 million-member diocese of Orange are being released at this hour at the Garden Grove site.
Currently slated for dedication as Christ Cathedral in early 2016, this video lays out the process behind the liturgical redesign – and, for the first time, reveals the anticipated result.
While the main church is the climax of the project (an effort funded as part of a $100 million capital campaign), much of the 35-acre campus has already been put into use by the Orange church: the diocesan offices and a school moved into other buildings there last year, and 11 weekend Masses are now celebrated in three languages at the campus’ Arboretum – the site’s first structure erected by Dr Robert Schuller – which opened as Catholic worship-space in mid-2013. In the future, the plot will likewise host the West Coast base of EWTN under a recently reached agreement.
The work on the main building described as “one of the most challenging architectural undertakings in the history of the church,” Bishop Kevin Vann is expected to provide further details tomorrow in a public launch at Orange’s annual prayer breakfast. In the meantime, the diocesan weekly has prepared a centerfold spread of the plans (click on image to enlarge)…
…and in a series of videos, the members of the design team explain the employment of the liturgical items and spaces piece by piece, while an interactive map lays out the changes taking place across the entire site.
To read the original posting, click here.
The new design is magnificent! As one of the people on the video stated they have taken a building designed primarily for the liturgy of the word and transformed it into a fully functioning Catholic building with the altar at the center. It is also great that they have a school, a culture center to attract people to the facility and perhaps convert a few, a place of quiet inside and outside to pray and be closer to God. This is world class! Bravo!
Bob one, it surprises no one that you’re all agog…like Brer Rabbit in the briar patch, as it were. Lucky for you you were born for this age. To be honest, if this brings people to Christ, I’m all for it. It’s personally not at all to my taste, but the fact that it will be filled with light might act as a genuine aura of holiness of which we cannot conceive from a mere picture or blueprint. Perhaps prisms of rainbows and sparkling bits of light and dappled shadows will produce a true home for the faithful.
The world is charged with the grandeur of God.
It will flame out, like shining from shook foil;
It gathers to a greatness, like the ooze of oil
Crushed. Why do men then now not reck his rod?
Generations have trod, have trod, have trod;
And all is seared with trade; bleared, smeared with toil;
And wears man’s smudge |&| shares man’s smell: the soil
Is bare now, nor can foot feel, being shod.
And for all this, nature is never spent;
There lives the dearest freshness deep down things;
And though the last lights off the black West went
Oh, morning, at the brown brink eastward, springs —
Because the Holy Ghost over the bent
World broods with warm breast |&| with ah! bright wings. GM Hopkins
Dana—- Thank you for that most apropos quote from the poem “God’s Grandeur” by Gerard Manley Hopkins, S.J.
Thank you, Fr. Bob. He’s such a witness to seeing beauty even in the midst of great suffering, isn’t he?
Magnificent disgrace is right! This is a huge eyesore glass elephant case of ‘The Emperor Has No Clothes, as you also cheer out you’re Pied Piper “Bravo” to the listening crowd. Money deals and super $$$ egos have absolutely nothing to do with solidly transmitting the Catholic Faith as taught by Jesus Christ through the Magisterium and the CCC Second Edition. You do realize that people could also say that YOU are a “cafeteria Catholic” for remaining silent or cheering on the dismantling of long held traditions regarding Church teaching and designing a Catholic Cathedral. Let me explain further. Take the recent quote below made by Rev. Msgr. Arthur A. Holquin to the Los Angeles Times about Christ Cathedral…. “We are inheritors of an iconic building … and we needed to be respectful of this environment.” – Rev. Msgr. Arthur A. Holguin
Bob that is OUTRAGEOUS! Inheritors of an iconic glass elephant “building” and we needed to be respectful of the “environment???” How about inheritors of the One, Catholic, Holy and Apostolic Faith? How about the need and the holy right to be respectful of the “environment” regarding a convert’s right to kneel before Almighty God when kneeling down to receive Holy Communion? Is the Rev. Msgr. teaching everyone that the “environment” of a Protestant built glass structure is more important than the need to be respectful to Our Lord’s Real Presence? How does Monsignor Holquin on one hand square his cruel and humiliating berating of a new Catholic convert to Catholicism from Protestantism for the convert’s kneeling in front of the “environment” of the Real Presence but then tell the L.A. Times that “we needed to be respectful of the environment.,” when talking about inheriting an iconic “glass structure?” OUTRAGEOUS!
continued from September 27, 2014 at 1:48 pm
Bob One, I spoke on the telephone with the new convert who is an attorney. He said he had never been so incredibly embarrassed and hurt. He (the convert) said he could not understand why Father Holquin was doing this to him. This man was so extremely happy to have become a Catholic and Father Holquin did this to this convert on the very day after he had become a Catholic. So this was only the second time that this man was receiving Our Lord. This new convert left work to attend the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass on a weekday and this is the “environment of ICONIC DISRESPECT” that was given to Our Lord and to this new convert. Would you “Bravo” that too Bob? Monsignor Holquin also asked the man, “Which parish do you attend and what priest taught you to do this?” The Rev. Arthur Holquin also denied Holy Communion to two women kneeling while he was pastor of Holy Family Cathedral. He walked away from them and left them kneeling. I was there the day this happened. Many also witnessed this. This is the same modern day internal *mindset* that the Servant of God, Father John Hardon SJ warned the faithful about. Rome cracked down on these bullies because of the faithful who you label as “cafeteria Catholics”. That modern day agenda internal *mindset* is still in place and what is transmitted is the respecting of iconic glass houses before respecting the Real Presence. Would the Rev. Schueller’s son be inspired to watch Monsignor Holquin berate a former Protestant who newly converted to Catholicism just for kneeling down in front of Our Lord? Is this respecting what we have inherited? So please Bob One, spare the birds of the same feather kinds of “Bravo” because each “Bravo” for dismantling the Catholic Faith is a “Bravo against Our Lord.”
continued from September 27, 2014 at 1:48 pm
The Rev. Monsignor Arthur A. Holquin is a friend of Rod Stephens, the homosexual ex-priest who was removed after the faithful informed Bishop Brown that there was a P.I. video of Father Rod living a duplicitous “Bravo” lifestyle. Father Stephens was also running a Catholic Church wreck-ovation liturgical design business called Sacra-Forma. Rod Stephens has profited $$ money because of dismantling many a beautiful Catholic Church all over the United States and then wreckovating them into Protestant looking “worship spaces”. One Church that he worked on in Orange County removed the majority of statues and Jesus’s floating body is suspended and hanging on invisible strings. It looks absolutely goofy. It is another example of the interior *mindset* that shows disdain for any reminder of that suffering Jesus on a wooden crucifix, which reminds us that we are all sinners in great need of redemption and the price that Jesus was willing to pay for all of our sins. Monsignor Arthur Holquin while pastor of Mission San Juan Capistrano also sought out the design consulting recommendations of Father Rod Stephens so Bob One as you can see In reality it is often the hirelings who are the real ” wolves in sheep’s clothing “, and this is done while they support one another in their agenda to change the Catholic Church from within.
Bob One, You may still continue to “Bravo” this watering down of the Catholic faith, just like Cardinal Dolan watered down the faith when he said “Bravo” to Michael Sam for “coming out”. Would the Rev. Schueller’s son be inspired to watch Monsignor Holquin berate a Protestant who newly converted to Catholicism simply for kneeling down in front of the Real Presence of Our Lord?
Gossip is a sin.
Ignoring evil is approving it, Anonymous. Help our priests to be faithful. Do not aid them in dismissing the obvious to the detriment of all…. their souls included. That is not love.
The pomps of Satan are those things which he uses to render sin alluring.
“Ignoring evil is approving it.”
Thank you Ann Malley! God bless you!
Taken from CNA/EWTN NEWS
Pope Francis: Satan seduces by disguising evil as good
Vatican City, Sep 29, 2014 / 06:31 am (CNA/EWTN News).-
“It is therefore the responsibility of the People of God “to safeguard man, the man Jesus,” the Pope went on, because “He is the man who gives life to all men.”
However this is not easy because Satan has invented “humanistic explanations that go against man, against humanity and against God” in order to destroy us.
“This struggle is a daily reality in Christian life, in our hearts, in our lives, in our families, in our people, **in our churches**,” the Pope went on, adding that “if we do not struggle, we will be defeated.”
“But the Lord gave this task primarily to the angels: to do battle and win,” he said, drawing attention to the final song of Revelation which reads “Now have salvation and power come, and the kingdom of our God and the power of his Anointed. For the accuser of our brothers is cast out, who accuses them before our God day and night.”
Pope Francis concluded his homily by encouraging those present to pray to the Archangels Michael, Gabriel and Raphael, and to recite the prayer to Saint Michael often.
We should do this “so he may continue to do battle and defend the greatest mystery of mankind: that the Word was made Man, died and rose again. This is our treasure. That he may battle on to safeguard it.”
Then perhaps we should review the ‘pomps’ that lead those in the apostolic succession to promote only that which is ‘sufficient’ when rendering the due honor deserved by Our Creator, Anonymous.
Not kneeling when one is incapable is sufficient as Our Lord does not demand that which we cannot do. Much like during hot war, a general absolution prior to battle would suffice. But when God’s creatures are taught to withhold that which is completely doable and appropriate (no physical impediment, no war, no persecution), I would imagine there is some ‘pomp’ (an ostentatious boastfulness or vanity: perhaps that which claims that the use of authority to make legal that which is merely ‘sufficient’) which might be impeding clear thinking.
It is vanity, however, that often keeps one carrying on a false pretense. Fear of being looked on poorly. So whereas the notion that Communion in the Hand came about as a reverent or even holistic outgrowth of piety might sound good, the reality is that the practice came about via abuse of authority and a hierarchy that gave in to misbehaving children led by Bishops who were already exercising a ‘cafeteria’ mentality.
I make a throne for Jesus with my hands. I say Amen when the Eucharistic minister says “Body of Christ.” My Amen means that it is the Lord and that I revere Him. I pause for a moment of adoration and gratitude before placing Jesus on my tongue and increasing my reverence and thanksgiving. I petition Jesus for the needs of all-especially for those who do not know Him or who have fallen away from the Church. I offer my communion for many intentions but especially for those who cannot receive Him because of mortal sin to repent and for those who have been misled away from Him.
If the Church decides that I need to kneel and receive on the tongue, I will obey. Obedience is more pleasing to God. Self-will is not.
As for the pomps of Satan, there are ways that he makes evil attractive. Gossip can be alluring because it seems as if one is giving information or getting information which is a form of power.
Also, we are asked to make a simple bow when approaching the Lord in Holy Communion; a profound bow when crossing in front of the altar where Our Lord’s sacrifice is re-presented, to genuflect to Our Lord in the Tabernacle and to kneel and bow before the Eucharistic Jesus when exposed for adoration..
Ann Malley, the opposite is in fact true. Even if the muck raking you all are doing about how communion in the hand became juridically correct in the particular American Churches, there was already a well honored practice in other Particular Churches that established that communion in the hand was efficacious for the faithful. Trying to convict the legislative means by which it became established practice among THESE particular Churches, as you are doing, fails to address the broader question about its prior fully correct uses among other Particular Churches. And when a practice is efficacious in one Particular Church, it cannot be heretical or anathema in another separate Particular Church even if its legislative adoption in that venue was irregular.
Anonymous, God bless and reward you for your piety and obedience. As for power, I have no more than you. But I do ask that the powers that be readdress the issue of communion in the hand. And I will continue to do so as it is a good and holy practice that girds the faithful in myriad ways.
There are enough priests and religious who remember the good of it …. and can see the good fruit thereof as well. As to other posters who would imply that ‘the opposite is true’ I have no doubt that that is what you believe….. on many levels.
Despite being as ‘Ugly as sin’, this new building even has a non-traditional name. The name is quite common among Protestant churches. The name should have been Christ the King, or Christ our Light, or some other title of Our Lord, but just CHRIST CATHEDRAL is NOT Catholic sounding. I am reminded of the maxim “You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear”, and I am afraid the touching up job will NOT beautify nor make holy a building which is supposed to be the House of God.
No matter how much money is spent, I personally am not comfortable in any Church where the Tabernacle is not visible.
The Tabernacle contains the Body of our Lord (from the previous Mass).
Even though anointed I do not bow to an altar which is merely an object. This is idolatry.
CCC: ” 1183 The tabernacle is to be situated in churches in a most worthy place with the greatest honor.
The dignity, placing, and security of the Eucharistic tabernacle should foster adoration before the Lord really present in the Blessed Sacrament of the altar. …”
Well, there is it. Perhaps a matter of taste, perhaps of lex orandi, lex credendi, but Rev. Schuller would be happy here. Not at all Catholic, except in a studied attempt to block out everything Traditional. Does one really believe that the central altar was placed there so that no one was too far away? No. Rather, it is structured to insure that the Protestant-Catholic-Meal-Service-With-Presider cannot ever be the focus of a request that the “Catholic” leadership there accommodate the TLM, as required under Summorum Pontificum (and its instruction). Ditto the strange “Undercroft” (also designed with an anti-Traditional intent). Of course, there is no tabernacle to center the altar and Mass — of to a side chapel “just like in Europe”. Really, this is another intent to Protestantize the Church and the Mass — its a “meal” after all!! Perhaps, though, the classic “doublespeak” of Msgr. Holquin is the Baptistery. Entirely, purely, Protestant in design and intent, this is a clear insult to centuries of Catholic Tradition and design. Who wants to bet that the “voluntary” nature of “total immersion” soon becomes the absolute rule– with “lay ministers” insisting that all new Catholics, for example, acting just like the Baptists and most Protestants by donning a white garment and being held under the water. Move away, move away, from being Catholic, that is the message of this place. This building will happily house the New Church Catholicism being imagined by Cardinal Kasper and his German pals, which current literature suggests will use the Family Synod to change much of the present Church’s teachings, on a wider variety of topics. Happy times for Protestant-Catholics.
St. Christopher, your Cafeteria Catholic approach continues to amaze me. This new design, with the altar the central focus of the building, where Mass is said, is in total conformity to what a Catholic church should look like. You only support the parts of the Church that you like. Don’t preach to this site as though what you like is the “true” church. Generally it isn’t. Its what you chose to take from the cafeteria line, and then you tell us everything else is rotten. NOT SO!
Nice personal attack, “Bob One” which is about all you can say, given the terrible, non-Catholic design, just like the wonderful “cathedrals” in LA and Oakland. And, you really have no idea what “Cafeteria Catholic” means, do you? Try the “pick-and-chose” Catholicism of Nancy Pelosi, most Kennedys, Sec. of State Kerry, Gov. Cuomo and many, many more; using their official positions to directly aid, pro-abortion, pro-homosexual sexual relations, then publicly accepting communion. Of course, they are further enabled by the entirely loony-tunes Catholic leadership of Cardinals Dolan, Wuerl and Abp. Cupich, to name a few. This awful structure is “Catholic” only because the Bishop says that it is (and the Vatican did not object, as you might think that they would not). Remember that all dictators changed laws, rule, protocols, and the like, to give legitimacy to their designs and policies (did you ever see the kind of architecture beloved of Stalin, Hitler, and Mussolini, to name only a few of the modern uber-rulers). Call it what you will, but it is not Catholic. You should join-up with a “Fr. Bob B.” who says that all sacraments were “given” to the Church so it can say who can receive them, and, how. Well, that is true on any political level: whoever has power can set the rules. It does not make it right, it does not make it Catholic. Go ahead, enjoy; but it is an insult to the Church, its glorious Tradition, and to the fools that gave money for its construction.
Anonymous—– I know you mean well, but for the sake of your mental health, PLEASE stop trying to use facts, logic and common sense to counter the ever-so-certain nonsense peddled by Ann Malley (she claims to have a special charism granted by God directly to proclaim the “T”ruth and save the world), St. Christopher and Catherine—-who blog on and on about every topic on this site. You will never convince them; and none of them will ever respond to challenges to defend their ex cathedra statements. I’m addressing this to you as a reasonable person. I am fairly certain than venom will spew from them in response. I have no intention of responding.
… you may also want to check in with Pope Francis, ‘Fr.’ Bob B with regard to charisms. Or do you not believe that there are different gifts just like you so easily dismiss the pleasure, if not the action, of the Devil is a lack of proper catechesis in the Church for the past 40 years. Your words.
Fr.Bob B., thank you for your wisdom. And you are right. I think it is the meanness that triggers my need to defend and I pray to the Blessed Mother to use me to say what She wants. Sometimes I forget to pray, though. I am truly sorry that these people are so messed up and I feel sad for them. They can learn-they are just in a place on their journey where they believe that sin can bring good to the Church. They have been duped by the one who dupes everyone. Maybe silence is the best way for their words to echo in their own hearts and then She who’s Heart was pierced so that the thoughts of many hearts may be laid bare can soften them and instill virtue in them. Praying for them and us.
Fr. Bob B,
It appears that you have resorted back to name calling instead of setting a Christlike example. I thought that you were being sincere when you wrote that it was generally not your nature to treat others this way. Would you also criticize the prelates in the Vatican who instructed the faithful to stand up against the errors that are being taught within the Church. Fr. B, we were even instructed to contact certain bishops who would understand and help. This prelate specifically referred to the Archdiocese of L.A. as a “huge can of worms”. I think that your pride is wounded because perhaps you have been silent in your 22 year post. Father John Hardon SJ was terribly persecuted for speaking up and he was cruelly treated by his own Order. Father Hardon SJ was a good example of a priest who remained in union with Rome but who did not attack those who spoke up because they saw the errors being taught. Is it much easier to criticize me for my long posts than speak up for the abuses and spiritual neglect that the Vatican spoke about in the Archdiocese of L.A.? Would the founder of your Order be pleased to see you criticize me for standing up for the belief in the Real Presence?
A priest who thinks nothing of dropping comments he is assured will foment venom is a priest who does not understand that to bait and taunt is to cooperate in the sin of another. So much for the theology of the ‘Greg’.
Again, the elementary is driven from the mind of those with degrees, and so Sherlock Holmes must repeat, “Elementary my dear Watson.”
A similar chancery voice is condescending on Fr. Z’s blog:
Catherine, these things were decades ago!
What errors are being taught?
We would all like to stand up against them.
Catherine, you are very self-assured. Perhaps you should examine your conscience. Priests don’t make comments like this unless you have done something. You are not Father Hardon who was a very holy priest. You do not stand up for belief in the Real Presence. You attack people who don’t do things according to your will. But hey, nice spin.
Catherine, it is alway important to check ourselves before we wreck ourselves. Especially if we believe we are on a mission from God. Small things can loom large and throw us off course. What do you see your mission as?
I know you wrote before that you believe that God will put you in hell if you do not speak out. I think that was about homosexuality but maybe it was also about communion in the hand or disrespect for the Blessed Sacrament?
Could you please help us understand. I get very confused by you. You seem like a faithful Catholic and then you write things that are not so holy. I think one of your faults is that instead of attacking an idea or error, you attack the person.
If you are on a mission from God, it requires a lot of prayer, humility and frequent (even weekly) confession.
Do you know this website. Churchmilitant.com
“The devil and all of his minions have been eating our lunch, especially through the secular tsunami in our times. Why? Because, so conditioned by secularism, we foolishly believe we can defeat these spiritual forces of evil by simply relying upon our own corporeal power.”
Do you do the 7 daily habits?
1. The Morning Offering
2. Mental Prayer (at least 15 minutes)
3. Spiritual Reading (at least 15 minutes)
4. Holy Mass and Communion
5. The Angelus (at noon & 6:00 PM)
6. The Holy Rosary
7. Examination of Conscience (at night)
These were also recommended by Father Hardon but also the Memorare and Stations of the Cross and monthly Confession.
No wonder you are very confused. You start a dialogue on a Catholic website using the words of a rapper named Ice Cube who is known for using very filthy language. This rapper has a song titled “Check Yo-self before you wreck yourself”.
Having worked with many Catholic teenagers even they know what a bad influence the words to this song are but you thought it fitting to use these words so I am not surprised that you have let other bad influences confuse you. In the meantime perhaps you should check yourself when quoting the title of a filthy song to make a point because you have just unwittingly undermined (wrecked) your own credibility.
Anonymous you wrote: “I know you wrote before that you believe that God will put you in hell if you do not speak out.” = I have never written that statement. Cite the topic and date. You will not be able to because I have never said that.
Here is an example of what I have written.
Taken from Catholic Answers
Accessory to another’s sin
We all have a responsibility for the sins of others. When we cooperate in them, we are an accessory to these sins, and this is possible in nine ways: By Counsel, By Command, By Consent, By Concealment, By Defense of Evil Done, By Partaking, By Provocation, By Praise, By Silence.
As practicing Catholics and Christians, we are not merely compelled to avoid sinning. We are compelled to avoid the occasion of sin, to avoid the temptation of sin and try to live by the example that Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, gave us.
It is not enough to avoid evil but we must also avoid the appearance of evil as well. It is not enough to merely avoid wrong-doing but to speak-out against any wrong- doing. We are all called to defend our faith and God’s laws.
If someone is aware of an evil committed, there are nine ways that we can end up being guilty by our participation, or omission, regarding another’s sin. Unfortunately, “Silence” in face of evil, is common, when we choose to be silent we allow sin to occur and in by doing so, we too sin.”
Catherine, I am sorry but I am not familiar with the work of Ice Cube.
Silence in the face of evil is wrong. Taking communion in the hand is not evil.
You were extremely disrespectful to a priest.
You were disrespectful to other people who post here.
You did not answer my question.
Thank you Ann Malley for The link to Father Z’s blog about “Kneeless in Seattle
1 October 2014 at 9:02 am
“That priest does not believe in the Real Presence, and there are many, many, like him in the Catholic Church today.”
“Bingo. I can’t be the only one to have noticed the priest’s decision, for the sake of mere pique, to “throw the Sacred Host sideways into the recipient’s mouth”; that’s not something which one would do if one had even the slightest inkling of the fact that one is holding one’s Almighty Lord, God, Creator and Judge in one’s hands. Even if he were dispensing Oreo cookies in such a petulant manner, it’d be a moral failing (proper to a spoiled child having a tantrum, and throwing a coveted toy at one’s sibling when asked by parents to share it); but… to do that to GOD? My heart fails when I try to picture it.”
O Jesus, I pray for Your faithful and fervent priests; for Your unfaithful and tepid priests; for Your priests laboring at home or abroad in distant mission fields; for Your tempted priests; for Your lonely and desolate priests; for Your young priests; for Your dying priests; for the souls of Your priests in Purgatory.
But above all, I recommend to You the priests dearest to me; the priest who baptized me; the priests who absolved me from my sins; the priest at whose Masses I assisted and who gave me Your Body and Blood in Holy Communion; all the priest who taught and instructed me; all the priests to whom I am indebted in any other way (especially…).
O Jesus, keep them all close to your heart, and Bless them abundantly in time and in eternity. Amen.
Thank you St. Christopher for your post. In light of the ongoing denial of rotten fruits – and the smoke of Satan that can accelerate decay – I’ll stick by you when seeking what precisely in the buffet is safe to eat.
Simple, traditional foods are generally safe as they are not easily tampered with and show signs of fungus rather clearly.
At least you admit it that you are a cafeteria Catholic.
By imposing a false sense of CHOICE, the chancery itself has given the wrong impression, Mr. Magisterium, that the Church is indeed a cafeteria where one picks and CHOOSES. Or do you think that a Pontifical Gregorian University education in Rome precludes common logic and reasoning. One would hope not.
So go forth and offer the deviled eggs cupping the botulinum. When the *faithful* drop off like flies you can defend your position by proclaiming that you are not a cafeteria catholic. But you are. For you are inside the cafeteria of FALSE CHOICE masked by an authority more concerned, it appears, with upholding its own baseless authority while marginalizing the source of true authority – Jesus Christ.
God bless Fr. Bob B for posting here and all those who may have encouraged him to do so!
I am in the House of the Lord Jesus Christ, the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH.
Your faithlessness and blasphemy is not overlooked by the faithful or by the Lord.
No false choice, Ann. You disagree with the choice so you call it a false one. It would be nice if you stuck to what the Church teaches for at least a little while. You may not like the choice, but it is not a false one, it is one given to us by our Church.
Your willful blindness is not overlooked either, Anonymous, and so you contribute to the increase in error.
Indeed, Anonymous, what error indeed? You have been successfully blinded. And the same goes for ‘Who ya trying to kid?’ Methinks you are seeking to kid yourself.
I wonder if you raise your children by the strict standard of ‘what is legal’. What wholesome and abundantly loving environment that would be. Food, water, shelter, clothing, the end. Sufficient and ‘legal’. What a good choice! But hardly the correct choice for one who loves their children.
Ann Malley, I did not write the who ya trying to kid comment.
I am not blind.
You have been confronted often by commentators asking for you to describe what error the Church teaches and you have never been able to do so.
To sin by silence when we should protest makes cowards out of men.-Ella Wheeler Wilcox
You should make sure that what you are protesting is real, not imagined. In this day of the Internet, lots of false reports get spread around.. You make a fool of yourself when you protest the Catholic Church and cannot even say why.
You can protest ab out what you do not like and others who also do not like it will join you, but you are not serving anyone but yourself.
Your attempts to degrade others by your simplistic and faulty analogies will be hailed by others who like to see others degraded.
Big people don’t try to make others feel small.
Anonymous and Who ya trying to kid, I have been confronted and answered, multiple times. I cannot account for your stopped up ears and squinched up eyes. If you do not choose to do the reading or research, that is on you. Your choice. One you must and will live with.
That said, take your own advice and stop attempting to belittle others when they give you answers you don’t like. But, sorry, I’ve no power to rewrite history much as you may like. Similarly, if you ‘feel’ small, that is your affair.
But you never tell us the error. You just accuse us of being blind. It looks like there is nothing that you can put your finger on. Is this the case? What do you want us to read and research? Please stick to faithful Catholic websites or books.
Poor, poor Ann Malley. Thinks she has done all the research. Thinks she is always right and everybody else is wrong, including her Bishops. Must be tough to be Ann Malley!
Not ‘my’ research, not ‘my’ Bishops and by no means have ‘I’ done all, WYTTK. The world is much larger than you may believe.
If you have no care to learn about the matter of ‘Communion in the hand’ in this instance, don’t. It is your choice. But since you cannot comply with a simple request for a name to facilitate proper discussion, you have outlined your learning style. That of an effective cog in an increasingly defunct hierarchy of denial.
You can find TLM masses, but it’s very niche. You’re never going to have a TLM mass at a place that seats 2700, anyway.
Go find a nice church in the neo-gothic, Spanish colonial, or Italian Renaissance style. There are plenty of them. Be happy. If that’s your path to God, that’s an available option.
This is not a Catholic church. When I don’t like something, I vote with my checkbook and my feet.
Sarah, why is it not a Catholic church: central altar, baptismal area, huge crucifix, tabernacle, side chapels, choir area, big organ, plenty of light, fully functioning parish, etc.. What is missing? By the way, thousands of people attend Mass at the center every weekend already, and the Cathedral hasn’t been remodeled yet.
I enlarged the picture.
No Tabernacle is visible. This is what makes it un-Catholic looking.
It is not inspiring – to bring us closer to God.
Now here iwhat a Catholic Church should look like –
Pete, the picture of the Tabernacle is very special and it is located above and behind the cathedra. It is in the Blessed Sacrament Chapel, with pews and kneelers for people to use. See the video:
I found it useful to watch all the many videos posted by the cathedral in which the priest and brothers as well as the architects explain the history and reasoning behind every major decision. The Tabernacle is hidden in plain sight. :)
I look at this Protestant edifice and then I look at the Catholic school down the street. The first shows the world how money talks, the second was closed recently and shows where the money went.
A little hypothetical. Assume Rev Schuller was still operating his organization. What would it cost to purchase or construct all the facilities the Diocese obtained in addition to the Cathedral? What would the ‘Catholic’ Cathedral –built from scratch by the Diocese–look like. I suspect no matter the design, some would not like it.
I don’t know if you are the same (Msgr.) Mike Magee who was studying at the Greg the same time I was—but, anyway, your comment is spot on. Some advice: stop posting lest you get enmeshed in the troll nets of Ann Malley, Catherine, St. Christopher and the like and waste time responding to their nonsequiturs and phony claims to be an alternate Magisterium. Read their posts: they’re either kidding or crazy.
Not sure if you’re the same Reverent Robert Brom from San Diego who has questionable history, but if not, you surely do share a similar circle of friends and fears. And style.
It would appear the ‘nest of trolls’ at the chancery have grown a tad sweaty beneath the collar – time for a frontal attack on anything not ‘approved’ and with regard to those not in the boys club – or perhaps the alumni roles of ‘the Greg’ – it’s time to name names. Too bad that forthright defense of the Faith wasn’t used over the past 40 years of bad catechism responsible for the impious in the pews.
I wonder what Fr. Bob B was doing in his seat of authority – for such a ‘long’ time – about that particular problem. Or like our current presidential administration, did he only acquire insight via the news? But then that could be why a news outlet like CCD makes you so vehement to have intellectual discussion where you have already deigned there is none to be found. Oh, our protector! Let us all tremble in awe.
Sooo sad! What an uninspiring place to worship God. And you add the site at the top of the Tower of Hope to hold non-Catholic services. REALLY!?? What is the point? Can we spell e-c-u-m-e-n-i-s-m?
They hired one of the most “highly regarded architects in California”…no doubt one of the most expensive…known for modern architecture. https://www.johnsonfain.com/firm/scott-johnson
“[Dallas] Museum Tower architect Scott Johnson is the Design Partner at Johnson Fain, a Los Angeles-based architectural office providing design services worldwide. He co-founded Johnson Fain nearly 20 years ago with William Fain, his colleague and former Harvard classmate. The firm’s work in architecture, planning and interior design has gained wide recognition and earned national and international awards. Today, Scott is widely acclaimed for his project-specific, unique and modern designs, including Opus One Winery in Napa Valley, MGM Tower in Los Angeles, Leo Palace Resort in the Mariana Islands and San Francisco’s Rincon Center.”
I watched two short architecture videos, ‘The Baldacchino’ and ‘The Ambo.’ Here’s what I heard describe by priests: Alter table (Vatican II replaced the alter like in a Protestant church); the reading table is like a beema in a synagogue; the baldacchino is like Hebrew scriptures symbolizing the glory of God; the congregation and assembly (instead of parishioners). https://vimeo.com/christcathedral/videos
I watched all of the videos. You heard, but you didn’t listen. Everything in that new building is designed and built on Catholic tradition or the traditions of the Old Testament. What do you think an ambo in a Catholic Church is? It is the table upon which the lectionary rests. It is the table from which the Priest rests the Gospel from which he will give his homily. This church will have a wonderful baldacchino to focus peoples’ eyes on the altar and the cross that is hung from it. This is what a church of the 21st century should look like. If you want a church that looks like a 14th century church should look like, you may have to go to Italy, or Russia, or other places that built them back then. This is for today!
So Bob One anything new is good and anything old is bad…..no wonder the Church is in a shambles with that kind of thinking
Canisius, we are not in a zero sum game here. Some of what is new is good and some of what is old is good. But, we must also agree that not all that is old is good because some is bad and a lot of new is not so good either. In this case, I think the good outweighs the bad.
Wrong again Bob One we are in a zero sum battle for the preservation of souls
Canisius I was just in Europe and got to see the magnificent St. Roque’s Church, one of the first major churches of the newly founded Jesuit order, and specifically designed to accommodate the reforms of the then recent Council of Trent. It was quite a departure from what had been historical churches. It is magnificent and splendid. I wonder if in its day you would have been one of its detractors? You can read about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igreja_de_S%C3%A3o_Roque
I was also in Barcelona for the forth time in my life and got to see again La Sagrada Familia, my first visit since it’s consecration by Pope Benedict, and the fist time I participated in Mass there. It is similarly spectacular, chock full of profound symbolism and art. There is no question that the artist Gaudi, for whom a cause for canonization will undoubtedly take place, was a devout Catholic who wanted to see the timeless traditions of the church reshaped literally with new form and vitality. I wonder if you are one of his detractors too, especially since the style of architecture is known as “modernism”? You can look up lots of sources on the interwebs about its absolutely phenomenal architecture and symbolism, and can see a fantastic video animation of its future construction here: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/01/sagrada-familia-video_n_4022874.html .
Only a moral relativist would compare St. Roque’s Church and La Sagrada Familia, to this glass monstrosity, then again that is the very essence of the left, no one better than the other..
Cansius I asked you a question with the intention of having an intelligent conversation about Church architecture as it has evolved and will continue to evolve until the Kingdom comes. All you had to do was answer (if you chose to). You didn’t need to take the questions as an invitation to insult me. The fact that you did proves once again that you are not a Roman Catholic, but rather a 1950 Catholic: You seem to be among the sad cohort that believes that whatever architecture, liturgy, vestments, and doctrinal developments that were part of +/- 1950 years of authentic evolution stopped suddenly that year and that no further change can happen in the Church. We are not in 1950 any longer, and just as these things changed and evolved for those 1950 years, new art and architecture should be welcome and judged for its own merit, not by some standard artificially laid down by those who reminisce about the good ole days, and by people who pretend that 1950 was the year of perfection in art and architecture and liturgy.
YFC, I have no problems with varied forms, but like most folks, I do want decoration and I do want a Catholic church to look obviously Catholic.
Both St. Roques and La Sagrada Familia are elaborately decorated to appear obviously Catholic churches. Crystal Catherdral is undecorated, was built to impress a prosperity-gospel Protestant congregation. It is hardly suprising that it looks like a Protestant Church.
There is no breathtaking expansion of tradition here, as at La Sagranda Familia. There is only a big space built of glass, a tradition built by Hyatt Regency, not the Church.
Calling people philistines for not embracing fads has long been done by modernist architects whose buildings have barely outlived themselves. Glass houses, from Le Corbusier’s on, have simply never been desired, and I do not desire this one.
Brian S, glass houses are good for growing tomatoes, I assure you!
Check out my Crisis article I posted towards the beginning of the comments. Very heartening, indeed and an excellent refutation concerning church adornment, et al.
Thanks for your response Brian S. I will tell you that I actually went to services in the Chrystal Cathedral in the 1980s, when I had a friend who was doing a work gig nearby. I was wholly unimpressed with a building I thought would be phenomenally impressive. I thought the building would bring Creation into the worship space, but it just made the audio/video equipment all the more prominent.
On the other hand, a third venue I visited on my trip last month was Montserrat, the gorgeous monastery in the jagged edged mountains near Barcelona. Utterly phenomenal. The church space is traditional in style, but the environmental surroundings cannot help but make pudding out of the hardest of hearts. If the Christ Cathedral were airlifted to that spot, I think we all might think a bit differently about the project.
I am impressed with the videos and the theology behind the renovations. I am impressed with the desire to bring focus to the altar and the ambo. So I will wait to actually go and worship there before I go there before rendering my judgement.
Thanks again for engaging the conversation.
YFC, I do not engage in conversations with people do willing defy Church’s teaching and claim they are Catholic
Well, then, I’m relieved that you must not talk to yourself, given what you’ve written.
I do not defy Church teaching YFC, I do not march in gay shame parades demanding Society and the Church accept my sin as a lifestyle…..
Well, when the schools themselves become increasingly united to public school offerings, better to school at the kitchen table in the harbor of a solid Catholic home. Often lacking in the cash department.
Another result of what happens when “seekers of novelties” are in charge!
Since the Second Vatican Council the Catholic Church has become protestantized. This was the will of Pope Paul VI and the Church Fathers, and of our current Pope. So what is good about Christ Cathedral is that it has a lot of parking space.
Someone needs to give Bishop Vann this book before he spends another penny.
and perhaps the Bishop needs to contact:
I would not go out of my way to see the Cathedral as currently designed.
Someone needs to be fired.
It’s too bad that Bishop Vann inherited this monstrosity from the previous Bishop.
He could have built a magnificent Cathedral putting Christ as the head for the money spent.
Thank you for the link to a good architect.
Faithful Catholics people like Bob One who cheer this monstrosity and pan it off as tradition have nothing repeat nothing to offer the Catholic world and those looking to convert. They despise Catholicity and Holy Tradition, the only we can do is continue to fight them at every turn, they have nothing good to offer us, in the end their parishes will empty..
My heavens, Canisius, how do you come to your conclusions and create such hate for yourself. Just because someone likes this building doesn’t mean they despise Catholicity and Holy Tradition. How do you come to that thinking? Just the opposite is true. To be Catholic is about worshiping God, seeking His forgiveness and developing a personal relationship with him. Plus a lot more. But, liking modern architecture is not a sin. Liking architecture that is uplifting, that is beautiful isn’t a sin. I also like the old architecture and think it is beautiful. I have traveled the world and seen more church interiors than most, but that doesn’t mean anything new is bad. Please, go to Google and pull up images of the chapel that Saint John Paul had build in the building that our current Pope lives in, or the the chapel in the Pope’s palace. They are modern in the extreme and coexist with the Sistine Chapel. How can we help you not hate everything that is not what you like or everybody who like things different from your likes? God is love, not hate. Without love we will never see the face of Jesus. We need to love one another as God has loved us. How can we, all of us, help you receive that love?
Certainly one can have modernist tastes in architecture, “Bob One,” but that does not mean that that such is preferred for Catholic worship. As many recent studies have suggested, “we believe as we pray”. In, “Catholic Church Architecture,” by Denis R. McNamara (2009), he refers to the argument of theologican David Fagerberg, that “If Catholics believe as they build, then architectural theology may be considered a genuine theology, faith’s grammar in built form[.]”. Unfortunately for Orange County Catholics, their bishops suggest — and impose on them, a sterile, Protestant, cold, impersonal, and, frankly, lacking in hope, building, and Catholicism. One wonders what kind of catechism is taught here, what kind of belief. Certainly there can be no sense of the divine (as the Tabernacle is hid away) and no sense of the saints, and especially of Mary, the Mother of God. Please so enjoy your moderns, your Le Corbusier and the like: just do not impose them on the rest of us as a mandatory place for our worship. This leads, in fact, to a much larger topic: what is the role of the opinion of the “flock” regarding things like architecture and the like. Bishops are notorious for simply ignoring the views expressed by the Faithful in many ways; they know that people would simply not go in for something like this, if given the chance to provide their opinion. Sad to see this place foisted on the gullibe parishoners of Orange County — Rise Up!! Do not put one penney toward anything to do with this building. Find a nice Traditional Catholic Church and donate to it, instead (as well as to wherever celebrates the TLM). Then, write to the USCCB and to the local bishop and tell them.
I don’t care what the exterior of the campus architecture is like.
But the interior of the Cathedral itself needs to have SACRED ART and SACRED FURNISHINGS.
The TABERNACLE MUST be located in the “most worthy place with the greatest honor” – CCC 1183.
We don’t need an expensive tower of Babel, a place to honor human ingenuity.
We need places of worship that inspire and remind us of God in CATHOLIC (not Protestant) tradition.
CCC: ” 2502 Sacred art is true and beautiful when its form corresponds to its particular vocation: evoking and glorifying, in faith and adoration, the transcendent mystery of God – the surpassing invisible beauty of truth and love visible in Christ, who “reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature,” in whom “the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.”
This spiritual beauty of God is reflected in the most holy Virgin Mother of God, the angels, and saints.
Genuine sacred art draws man to adoration, to prayer, and to the love of God, Creator and Savior, the Holy One and Sanctifier.”
Mac, I agree, sort of… I want/like the tabernacle in a central spot behind the altar. Your comment, however, is inaccurate because it is incomplete. The church teaches that the tabernacle can be placed in one of two places: 1) behind the main altar, 2) on a conspicuous side altar, or 3) in a separate chapel that is easily available to those who want to go there. In all cases, it must be a nice and holy place. The local Bishop is given authority to rule on a case by case basis where the tabernacle will be placed in a church facility. It is important to, in my opinion, to distinguish between what we want, prefer, and like, and what the church rules are.
Bob One, I know what you are stating, BUT the CCC – Promulgated by Apostolic Constitution – over-rides other lessor documents.
In any Church where the Eucharist is secondary in importance to other “things”, it is not Catholic.
The Tabernacle must be of highest importance because the Lord is within.
CCC: ” 1183 The tabernacle is to be situated in churches in a most worthy place with the greatest honor.
The dignity, placing, and security of the Eucharistic tabernacle should foster adoration before the Lord really present in the Blessed Sacrament of the altar.”
Hiding or pushing the Tabernacle off to the side from those who come to worship on Sundays – is NOT placing it in the most worthy place with the greatest honor.
Far too many Bishops use very poor judgment.
In addition, where is the Sacred Art.? ? ?
CCC: ” 2502 Sacred art is true and beautiful when its form corresponds to its particular vocation: evoking and glorifying, in faith and adoration, the transcendent mystery of God – the surpassing invisible beauty of truth and love visible in Christ, who “reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature,” in whom “the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.” This spiritual beauty of God is reflected in the most holy Virgin Mother of God, the angels, and saints.
Genuine sacred art draws man to adoration, to prayer, and to the love of God, Creator and Savior, the Holy One and Sanctifier.”
This real-estate speculation masquerading as a Cathedral is a good example of how the Church squanders its credibility among the public, and among its believers.
No doubt, the campus and building was acquired at a good price in a depressed real estate market. It should have been sold and the proceeds used to build a proper cathedral, if one was indeed necessary. Better would have been their distribution to the poor. Bishop “Bling” indeed. This is greenhouse glass calling itself crystal.
I fully agree.
This Cathedral and its ongoing maintenance expense could be put to much better use.
Let us remember that the current Bishop Vann inherited this monstrosity from his predecessor Bishop Brown who purchased the place.
What a horrible waste of financial resources.
Thank you for your post. You are absolutely right! The L.A. Times had an article about what Rev Schuller spent on washing the windows.
“The church spends an estimated $30,000–taken from a special endowment fund earmarked for the maintenance–each year to rent a 110-ton crane to lift the window washers in a basket attached to a 180-foot boom.”
That is absolutely absurd. $30,000.00 a year just to ‘clean’ windows?! Does that cover the window washer’s salaries?
Make a Reservation at Christ Cathedral Pop-Up Dining …
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Matthew 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money changers, and the chairs of them that sold doves Douay-Rheims Bible
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OMGosh. Makes me feel safer where I’m at all the time.
Catherine, this is a Pop-Up dinner. These events happen in major population areas in the U.S. and Europe. Generally these are fund raisers for the sponsor. In this case, the price was $120 for a great French menu by a renowned chef. One night only. Lots of parishes have fancy dinners and evening celebrations to build up community or, frankly, to raise money. Doesn’t sound disgraceful, but, hey, I like good French food.
The Business of Megachurches
Bob One, If a parish can take the time to find the very best chef’s for expensive French cuisine and Pop-Up dining then they can surely find the time to Pop-Open the CCC Second Edition to accurately and fully instruct the faithful. There is a reason that many don’t. They do not want to get “too religious” to offend anyone so certain teachings are rarely preached about from the pulpit. One priest told me that his pastor told him not to preach about the Church’s teachings regarding artificial contraception, abortion or homosexuality in order not to drive people away or offend the big donators. Many shepherds are only teaching the feel good theology that never gives the full instructive road map of teaching that Our Lord gave to his One True Church.
Bob One, You are also the same poster who jokes and mocks the traditional vestments worn by our many faithful Catholic priests. You are a numbers $$ man first and then we have our anonymous posters who criticize the Catholic Church with it’s “sterile teachings” that drive people away. Sadly we see that our shepherds are now in full competition with the Super Mega Churches that are built to bring in the numbers in seats and in $$. It is all neatly figured in. All except the transmitting of the fullness of Truth. Will there be giant jumbotron videos prominently placed when hanging down to raise big donations while Our Lord is placed in a much smaller sterile looking room. Also, Mother Angelica knew how to fully teach with her selection of a Tabernacle as well as the placement of a Tabernacle too.
Will Bishop Kevin Vann correct the previous error that has been taught to Catholic men by an instructor in the Diocese of Orange diaconate program. This instructor taught that our belief in the Presence was tantamount to “cannibalism.” OR Are we seeing the beginning of Bishop Sheen’s prophecy?
Now there is even a watering down “reached-agreement” with EWTN as in keeping with the same feel good theology that will never teach the faith as Mother Angelica did.
Brian S’s post should be remembered for it’s truthfulness. Brian was spot on when he posted…”This real-estate speculation masquerading as a Cathedral is a good example of how the Church squanders its credibility among the public, and among its believers.”
America’s Biggest Megachurches
“Lakewood leased the center from the city of Houston in 2004 for 60 years, paying $13 million in cash for the first 30 years rent. Then they threw $95 million more in on top of that to try to make the 650,000 square foot building feel like an intimate church. There is wall-to-wall carpet beneath the 14,000 seats. The largest of three jumbotron screens is 32 feet by 18 feet. Twin waterfalls book-end a stage that rises and falls before a circling gold globe and a pulpit, where Osteen, often lambasted by critics for being light on theology, preaches about staying positive. He says he doesn’t want to be “too religious” in hopes to reach the “everyday person.”
“In the midst of all his seeming love for humanity and his glib talk of freedom and equality, he will have one great secret which he will tell to no one: he will not believe in God. Because his religion will be brotherhood without the fatherhood of God, he will deceive even the elect. He will set up a counterchurch which will be the ape of the Church, because he, the Devil, is the ape of God. It will have all the notes and characteristics of the Church, but in reverse and emptied of its divine content.” –
(Fulton J. Sheen, Communism and the Conscience of the West [Bobbs-Merril Company, Indianapolis, 1948], pp. 24-25)
I attend Mass at several churches in the Diocese of Orange. Catherine you distort things terribly.
Where did I hear women admonished for immodest dress in Church?
The Diocese of Orange
Where did I hear errors of fundamentalist Protestantism discussed in a sermon?
The Diocese of Orange
Where was I asked to vote for Proposition 8 in a sermon?
The Diocese of Orange
I have also attended a mega-church Catholic parish in Texas.
Perpetual adoration, daily Masses and Rosaries, absolute fidelity to the Catholic Church.
Watch your judgements. I am guilty too, Once I was horrified to enter a Church and find there was no statue of Our Blessed Mother. I immediately judged it to be a less-than-Catholic parish. I mentioned it to someone. They told me the statue had been damaged when the air conditioning unit had leaked and was out being repaired.
“I attend Mass at several churches in the Diocese of Orange. Catherine you distort things terribly.”
Anonymous, Please do not tell me that I distort things terribly because many good priests in this diocese have said the very same. Please read Michael Rose’s book “Ugly as Sin” or even look up the word ‘Wreckovation’ on Wikipedia. Yes, the word Wreckovation is even there.
One pastor of a parish told me personally that a statue of Mary that is not holding the infant Jesus is “bad theology”. The Catholic parishes that Rod Stephens was paid to wreckovate throughout California and other states.did remove many of the statues and it had absolutely nothing to do with air conditioning problems. Anonymous if you knew that there was an underlying intent by some within the Church to lessen or distort the belief in the Real Presence would you still be arguing with others about the removal of statues? Father John HardonSJ was a very holy priest and he warned the faithful to be on guard because he said that the real target was to destroy the belief in the Real Presence. How do you think that one does that? By slowly removing what was once held sacred. It should not offend you to be asked to always remain on guard especially when Father Hardon said that only heroic Catholics would survive what is to come.
Now Rod Stephens may be gone but his likeminded close friends are all in positions of authority. And yes anonymous there are truly some very good priests in this diocese who have asked the laity to speak up.
Catherine, the laity always speaks up. No one has been silent.
Sheesh, people wrote to the Vatican asking the bishop to be removed. They posted letters and videos online about him.
Wreckovation is on wikipedia because people were silent, I guess.
My point is that you seriously distort what Catholicism in Orange County California is like.
It is not a bunch of people trying to undermine belief in the Real Presence. Every Church I attend has people-many people-who stay after Mass to adore Jesus in the Tabernacle.
I don’t know what parish you go to.
“…Catherine, the laity always speaks up. No one has been silent.
Not always, Anonymous, especially when those in offices who have made the decisions do not want to renege on a decision/path precisely because they made it and want to keep going. Good or bad.
I don’t know what world you are living in, Anonymous, but it doesn’t seem to be real. Not that there aren’t good parishes and good people. Nobody is denying that there are good folks. But the push to not assess or root cause problems or recognize causes is rather blatant in some circles. Circles of power that recently ushered in Fr. Radcliffe to speak with priests of the diocese.
That is despite the scandal, the protest, the outcry. So your ‘always’ is a bit misguided despite the kindly sentiment.
Many are simply willfully ignorant. There are bounds beyond which the Pope and bishops (and laity) should not go (even if they have the “legal” right to do so). Not many will listen, but, given the liberties taken with the Mass and the Faith within the past 50 years or so, there is actually very little that could not be changed, and is likely being considered to be changed. Why not have hamburger sliders for communion, for example? Nothing that establishes “rules” about the communion wafer is established conclusively in the Bible, so why not make it popular. Better yet, have “Multicultural” Masses, with small tacos, chinese dumplings, mini-meatball subs, and dolmades, added to the hamburger sliders. Of course, variations in Kool-Aid flavorings could be used for the “other species” of communion. Nothing says that this could not happen. Of course, open communion up to all people — to make Francis happy — including children, people from outside the Church, anyone. Completely ignore rules on marriage, and sexual ethics, too, as it is all arbitrary and, who are we to judge, anyway? Finally, why have any service in the Church, or why have a Church building at all: uncomfortable, inconvenient, and boring. To be a “practiciing Catholic, just send in a check as directed, kind of like buying a shirt on-line. Or, use the TV or IPad/equal, if some kind of contact is needed. Christ Cathedral is perfect for this kind of thinking: like a Mass-Disneyland; no ceremony to remind anyone of sin, or of much at all, or of the importance of the Crucifixion and of sacrifice, or the Saints or Mary. People will attend and “feel good” about things in general. Maybe there can be a fried chicken outlet franchise at the door of the “Cathedral” so that refreshment can be taken before and after Mass. (Judging from what parents insist on bringing with kids to Mass to eat and drink, it must be true that no one can go without for more than 10 minutes.) In a friendly, and family (?Pastoral?) way, people might get to informally — and affectionately — referring to the place as: the “Chicken Church” or “Chick-A-Church” or “Cluck Cathedral”. Anything is possible, if you believe.
St.Christopher, I feel your pain. Your utter sadness at the hijacking of the Bride of Christ speaks for many here. Things were beginnig to return to the Church’s one foundation with Pope. Benedict XVI…now it’s as if the liberals are stronger than ever. It’s like having a brief glimpse of home after a long and terrible journey only to be forced back on a hazardous road. It goes so much deeper than soulless architecture or needless expenditures…many diocese are still reeling from paying out millions of dollars because their priests and bishops betrayed Christ and them and then lied about it and tried to cover it up. That a lying, vile priest is allowed to speak at any venue in San Diego with the full permission of both bishops (RIP) and now the acting Msgnr. Is enough to make any faithful Catholic weep. Only the faithful bishops and cardinals are being targeted and silenced. Frankly, it’s time to openly question these blatantly sinful practices. But it’s difficult when, like Cd Dolan, they have the laughing buffoon routine , smiling and pius , down pat…criticism slides right off. This crystal palace is just one more slam to a trembling wall. The foundation is as strong and new as it ever was however and we can rejoice that it will never fail.
Dana, I know you are a convert. I fear that you are being led astray. Please read the statements of Pope Francis from the Vatican website, not from the secular media.
The Church isn’t a political party, with liberals, conservatives and moderates. The Catholic Church is a communion of believers. There are those who have accepted the whole of the Catholic Faith and there are those who struggle with some of the teachings or disciplines of the Church.
Pope Francis speaks as Jesus. Everything he teaches is straight from the Gospel. Do not be misled by those who have an agenda other than the Gospel.
I do not see any faithful priests being targeted and silenced. Cardinal Dolan is a holy priest with a great devotion to the Eucharist and the Blessed Mother, as is Pope Francis. These two devotions promote the attacks of the devil and the devil loves to turn those who have devotion to he Eucharist and the Blessed Mother against each other- House divided, remember?
I fear that those who have posted all their negativity and hatred and sinful judgments have been too great of an influence on you. I remember when you began posting here and you were the one to admonish these things. Please get back to the Scriptures that you know so well and the Rosary. Read the letters to the Churches by Saint Paul. You know better than this.
Yes, indeed, read St. Paul.
Thank you. All this animosity is really getting me down. I think I need some time off anyway. God bless all here and thank you for reinforcing what I’ve been thinking lately. Our Bible study is on Mark, but definitely I do need to read Paul as well. Take care everyone…I’ll be back after a much needed quietus. I’ll continue supporting CCD with my little mite.
God bless you for each and every one of your beautiful contributions on CCD!
Thank you Catherine and Anne. I have just re-read my post and do not think I feel any differently now. I agree that when I converted officially 7 years ago (though my faith journey home started long before) I felt very differently about the Bishops, but it’s not the same Church I entered into…I didn’t feel this undercurrent of beligerent and deliberate and wilfull drive to undermine Church teaching that I do now. Even at the local level I see tremendous change…the students no longer wear uniforms to our Catholic school and I noticea dramatic change in their behavior at Mass…less reverence, more wordly expressions. There’s a growing malaise that simply must be addressed, don’t you think? I used to receive so many emails from friends about praying for our troops…now I receive none! Sorry…it’s a big topic, no?
“Anonymous”: From all public circumstances and facts, it is difficult to see how anyone can call Cardinal Dolan “a holy priest”. Among many other things, he is unequivocally guilty of creating scandal at high levels. A growing number of commenters have called for his resignation, citing (among othe things): (1) his lack of moral courage by welcoming Obama to the Al Smith Dinner and yucking it up with the abortion President (without saying much negative about this): (2) welcoming the “coming out” of football player Michael Sam (saying “bravo” and justifying it later); (3) slamming Tradtiion at every turn, including seeking to eliminate the highly successful TLM in NYC; and (4) agreeing to lead the highly symbolic St. Patrick’s Day Parade even though the Parade now welcomes homosexual marchers (saying that it is OK to do this in that the homosexuals were marching to celebrate that they were “gay” and not to argue in favor of homosexual sex — huh??). Dolan dissembles, that is his character, and cowardice. He does not want to tell the truth because this would cause him to be ridiculed in the public press; people might make fun of him, too. Standing up for the Faith is difficult, leading to unpleasantness (in this World). We can only comment about what he says and does (and does not do); not what he says privately to God. However, a shepherd is supposed to lead his flock (toward salvation) and not make it seem like Catholic prohibitions of abortion, fornication, homosexual sex, and the like are really no big deal. Wait, wait — isn’t this what Pope Francis means by, “who am I too judge”? Maybe, maybe . . .
Why not turn it into a greenhouse and grow food for the poor?
Why spend money on expensive nard to comfort our Lord’s feet, mr Feeney? One of the greatest criticisms Protestants have of the Catholic Church is that we ‘waste’ money on ‘Godless’ idols and ornamentation and big, fancy churches when we Gould be giving it to the poor. The government already gives a large part of our nation’s economy to the poor …how’s that been working? I suppose deep down, though no one has suggested this, a Catholic Church should be a “safe house” from the world…like the Medival Cathedrals, arks in the storm, refuges. Somehow a modern glass building (especially in earthquake prone Ca) is utterly the antithesis of comfort and safety. People in glass houses shouldn’t cast stones, so to speak.
Interesting analogy of the glass house, Dana. It would seem we have clerics who do want to house the Church inside a glass facade which would very much negate any casting of ‘Catholic’ teaching that is eagerly misconstrued as ‘stones’.
I am so gladdened that the fuel behind the cadre of useful ‘faithful’ has shown himself. Ignorance, much like change agents, do not act alone.
Will Bishop Vann transform the Diocese of Orange Catholic schools with teachers who accept and uphold “all” of the Church’s teachings?
CHRIST SPEAKS TO US – EWTN.com
“You have to live a heroic Catholic life in America today. God will use you and provide you with the knowledge and the wisdom, providing you are living the authentically heroic Catholic life.
KNOW AND IMPART THE FAITH
Secondly, if you want to teach and train your children, you must know your faith. You must grasp and understand the faith. Read the 14th chapter of St. Matthew where Our Lord tells the parable of the sower sowing seeds. Seeds fell on four kinds of ground. The first three kinds were unfruitful. As Jesus said, birds came along and picked up the seed, and nothing grew. The disciples asked Jesus for the meaning. The Lord explained that the seeds falling on the wayside are those persons who have received the Word of God into their hearts and fail to understand it, and therefore the evil one comes along and steals it from their hearts.
That is why America now has millions of ex-Catholics. They have never understood their faith.
I have strong encouragement from the Holy See to train parents. You are all welcome to learn your faith so that you grasp and understand your faith. Then God will use you to teach your children as a channel of faith. Teach, not only by rote memory, but to grasp the faith.”
Bishop Vann inherited the glass $57 million dollar monstrosity from Bishop Tod Brown. Brown purchased the complex a year prior to Bishop Vann taking over the Orange Diocese.
We still need to encourage our Bishops to:
1) Place the Tabernacle visibly and “in churches in a most worthy place with the greatest honor.”
2) Include Sacred Art (according to Tradition).
3) Have some kneelers for those who wish to receive Our Lord on bended knee.
Phil 2:10-11; Psalm 95:6.
(Kneeling before God had been denied to us by Cardinal Bernardin and his supporters, as was Communion on the tongue.)
CCC: ” 2715 Contemplation is a gaze of faith, fixed on Jesus. “I look at him and he looks at me”: this is what a certain peasant of Ars in the time of his holy curé used to say while praying before the Tabernacle.
This focus on Jesus is a renunciation of self.
His gaze purifies our heart; the light of the countenance of Jesus illumines the eyes of our heart and teaches us to see everything in the light of his truth and his compassion for all men.
Contemplation also turns its gaze on the mysteries of the life of Christ. Thus it learns the “interior knowledge of our Lord,” the more to love him and follow him.”
CCC: ” 1183 The tabernacle is to be situated “in churches in a most worthy place with the greatest honor.”
The dignity, placing, and security of the Eucharistic tabernacle should foster adoration before the Lord really present in the Blessed Sacrament of the altar. “
“Priests don’t make comments like this unless you have done something.”
Prelates in the Vatican don’t make comments like this: “The Archdiocese of L.A. is a huge can of worms”, unless the clergy has done something.
Our Lady of Akita, Japan does not make comments like this unless her beloved priests have done something:
“The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see Cardinals opposing Cardinals, Bishops against other Bishops. The priests who venerate Me will be scorned and opposed by their confreres (other priests). Churches and altars will be sacked. The Church will be full of those who accept compromises, and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord.
“The demon will be especially implacable against the souls consecrated to God. The thought of the loss of so many souls is the cause of My sadness. If sins increase in number and gravity, there will no longer be pardon for them.
“…Pray very much the prayers of the Rosary. I alone am able to still save you from the calamities which approach. Those who place their confidence in Me will be saved.” – Church approved message of Our Lady of Akita
What does that have to do with anything?
You really like to use those things to distract from your sins.
People go to hell for not repenting of their sins.
“…The Church will be full of those who accept compromises, and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord.”
I’d say Catherine’s quote of Our Lady of Akita is perfectly in line with the discussion thread. Especially since you’re attempting to dismiss your own sins and focus on those you would like to assign to others, mous.
What sins did I commit?
I will 100% repent.
“Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, truly present in Holy Eucharist, I consecrate my body and soul to be entirely one with Your Heart, being sacrificed at every instant on all the altars of the world and giving praise to the Father pleading for the coming of His Kingdom.”
“Please receive this humble offering of myself. Use me as You will for the glory of the Father and the salvation of souls.”
“Most holy Mother of God, never let me be separated from Your Divine Son. Please defend and protect me as Your Special Child. Amen.”
Is it possible, and this is a question not an editorial, that many in the church are mirroring what is going on outside the church? Our nation has become polarized to an extent not seen in many generations. The flames of hatred are spread daily by many of the talk-radio hosts and television networks that must have 24/7 stuff to talk about. The division in thinking has turned to hatred of anything with which we do not agree, rather than thinking of it a a different point of view. The redesign of this cathedral is obviously not what a lot of people would have hoped for, but it is not evil and does not merit the creation of hatred for it or those who like it. it is definitely not anti-Catholic. It may not have altar rails, but that does not make it anti-Catholic, just different that what some like. It doesn’t have a lot of art, but the videos explained that that would come later but that doesn’t make if anti-Catholic. Most like the tabernacle behind the altar. How would they do that in this building? So, they have put it in a very prominent spot in a beautiful chapel. That may not be what we like, but it is not anti-Catholic and deserving of hatred. We may not like the economics of the building, that is no cause for hatred, is it? I find, among my Catholic friends and acquaintances several points of view on almost any subject. That doesn’t make them anti-Catholic or give reason to hate them and call them names. No person on this site should accuse others of being Communist or Nazi. Both are opposites by the way. How do we take strongly held views, passionate views, and still keep the discussion civil? Name calling, accusations of being not-real-Catholics, etc. is not being civil.
There is a lot of bigotry against the Catholic Church even among Catholics.
Faithful Catholics get attacked for being faithful Catholics.
Training in virtue and in the 10 Commandments and the 2 great Commandments seems to be lacking.
I do not know what happened to the traditional Catholic values. Maybe they became overtaken by cynicism.
I do not listen to talk radio or watch TV but I often wonder where the people here get their information because so much of it is distorted or exaggerated.
The badmouthing of the Catholic Church and its ministers is really sinful.