The following comes from a May 7 Catholic World Report article by Joseph M. Hanneman:
Matthew James Christoff is wants the world to know the Catholic Church has a man problem. Actually, not just a problem, but a crisis. The Catholic convert from Minnesota’s Twin Cities founded an apostolate called the New Emangelization Project to help men learn and fully live their faith. Nothing less than the future of the Catholic Church is at stake, he says.
Catholic World Report spoke with Christoff about his research and his plans to combat the crisis.
CWR: Just what is the Catholic man crisis?
Christoff: Some 11-15 million adult men in the United States were raised Catholic but left the faith. Men are under-represented in the Church versus the general population and men are only about one-third of weekly Mass attenders. Up to 90 percent of catechesis activities are led by women, so the face of the Church in the average parish has become more feminine. Some 60 percent of Catholic men are “casual Catholics”; they don’t know the faith and don’t practice the faith. The trouble is that men are becoming less passionate about being Catholic.
Twenty-five years ago, about 50 percent of men said they would never leave the Church. Today, only 40 percent say they would never leave the Church. Four of 10 men don’t believe Catholicism has any more truth than any other religion. Catholic men are dramatically less passionate about their faith than our Evangelical Christian brothers. So it’s not that Christianity is not appealing to men—there is something missing from how the Catholic Church is evangelizing men. If we wish to have a New Evangelization, there must be a New Emangelization, creating generations of Catholic men who are on fire for Jesus Christ and Holy Mother Church.
CWR: Did the depth of the man crisis surprise you?
Christoff: If you look at the 70-plus interviews I’ve done on our website, every single person has confirmed that there is a Catholic “man crisis.” At the Twin Cities Catholic men’s conference this past weekend, I asked 1,300 men to raise their hands if they think there is a Catholic man crisis. Ninety-five percent of the men raised their hands. The Church, from the Pope to the parish, needs to come to grips with the Catholic man crisis and begin more aggressively to evangelize men. Ultimately the crisis has a huge negative impact on the Church, on women, on children, and on greater society. You’ve got to make the case that the man crisis exists, you’ve got to make the case for why it’s important, and you’ve got to make the case that there are some clear and simple things we can do about it.
CWR: What worries you most about the man crisis?
Christoff: Catholic men are failing to pass along the faith to their children. The single biggest influence on if the children remain in the faith is the faith of the father. A father who practices his faith and lovingly professes his faith to his children influences the children to remain in the faith. So if your father is not active in the faith, chances are you won’t be active. The faith lives of women are very important and women have been doing a heroic job, but it is not enough, as the results show. Men are essential for the successful passing on the Catholic faith and, sadly, many Catholic men are failing.
If you look at 18- to 29-year-old Catholics, 25 years ago if you would have asked them, “Are you certain you’re going to stay Catholic?” about 40 percent said yes. That’s bad news, because 60 percent said they wouldn’t stay Catholic. Twenty-five years later, the number is only 18 percent. This is a massive disaster. It’s one that’s going to play out in the coming decades. This die is cast in some sense, without a really dramatic outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
CWR: You have written that the Synod on the Family that met in Rome last October had some shocking omissions. Why?
Christoff: There is only one sentence (in the synod report) that discusses the role of fathers/men specifically and it chastises men for not being good fathers. There’s no feedback on what men should be doing, to encourage them. The synod by and large focused on dysfunctional families, families that have been divorced or have left the faith, and those with same-sex attraction. There’s almost nothing on the family in the pew that is trying to be faithful, that remain married and were married in the Catholic Church, and nothing about the importance and role of Catholic men. These intact and faithful families make up 40 percent of families and there’s literally nothing of encouragement or help to them. If we don’t get our core and get them strong, there’s not going to be a core. And research is showing if you don’t get the men, you don’t get the children.
CWR: Were there any particular surprises in your research?
Christoff: One of the key findings that really shocked me was the large numbers of practicing Catholic men who lack fraternity. Only about one in six practicing Catholic men feels like they have strong bonds of brotherhood in their parishes. That is shocking to me. The fact is that we haven’t cultivated a spirit of brotherhood and fraternity. Fraternity is critical, for when you have high levels of fraternity and brotherhood in parishes, men pray more, they go to confession more, they go to Mass more, and they’re more active in their parishes. There are large numbers of Catholic men who are hungry and will respond if their priest specifically and systematically evangelizes them. Many priests haven’t yet made the active evangelization and catechesis of men a personal priority.
And this is part of what Fr. Illo’s altar boy only policy is addressing. Ushers, lectors, cantors, alter servers, extra ordinary ministers of the Eucharist, religious education leaders, parish councils, all dominated by women. Look at your own parish, because unless you belong to an orthodox leaning or traditional parish, this is the case. Welcome back, gentlemen, I’ve missed you! :)
If you put it that way, it’s much easier to support Father Illo. It’s not sex discrimination, it’s affirmative action!
@Kristin, You hit the nail on the head. The approach of Fr. Illo is the solution, yet we have nothing but opposition. The problem is not recognized in most parishes and the solution is rejected without any consideration due to misguided Political Correctness demands.
kristin I agree. Also Cardinal Burke tried addressing this issue too. In our area we use to have a yearly men’s conference in San Diego and my husband always looked forward to it but this year it was cancelled.
There is a good organization called dads.org that caters to this need as well. Also Jesse Romero has addressed this issue. In one of our local OF parishes, there are good solid Catholic men that are working and seeking on improving this issue.
The Infiltration of MISANDRY (Hatred of Men & Boys, Masculinity & Normal Heterosexuality) in modern media, government, law and the pathetic farce of Academentia – has helped to turn Men (Particularly Young Men) Away – the better to mau mau the Church in to Radical Gender Feminist / Homosex Pandering.
There is a definite lack of the ‘Robust’ about so much of ‘The Church’ that Men and Boys often thrive on, and can channel in to good works if led – sometimes just by suggestion or inspiration. Our Grade Schools are almost exclusively staffed by Women (Many Good Catholics, others not so much) and the rest of ‘Catholic Education’ is often heavily biased against Masculinity.
In places like Santa Clara U or Saint Mary’s – hyper militant Misandrist Control the ‘social engineering’ fields of the school (starting with Womyn’s / Gender ‘studies’ Indoctrination), and they award Tenure to those who are most often the Most Anti-Catholic amongst them – particularly ‘Lavender Mafiosa’ like the Homosex Trolls here.
The Monstrous Harm to and loss of Boys from the Church directly results from such Homosexualist Evil Infiltrating the Ranks (albeit only small percent) and the massive compounding of said harm by cover-ups shifting serial molesters to fresh territory.
Regardless – The Priest is but one Man – and often alone with No other Males Permitted on the Committees making the allocations, particularly if the guys are going to bring up ‘divisive’ issues like Following the Guidelines of Arch Bishop Cordileone or Bishop Barber.
Vatican II degraded the once-manly priesthood! The babyish, secularized, liberal Novus Ordo Mass, looks silly, compared to the professional, excellent, ORTHODOX, ancient, manly, old Latin Mass! And the modern, anti-orthodox, liberal, typical priest, is no longer in charge of his parish– he is made into a silly, effeminate, liberal “goofball,” without leadership capability!! The LAYMAN is now “King of Everything,” including our parishes! And the sick, filthy, 1960’s “hippie social activists,” despised manhood, feminizing men into stupid, long-haired, unisex, liberal, over-emotional, indecisive, immature, immoral fools! Most do not look like Real Men– they look like ignorant, poorly-educated, unkempt, juvenile delinquents, on a rock “music” album, without adult social manners nor morals! None will open doors for women, nor be true Christian gentlemen! They are brainwashed to condemn Fatherhood, and our paternal Patriarchal heritage– as well as the beautiful, natural roles, of male and female! The Church needs to kick out all the sick liberals!! Restore the True Mass, the True Priesthood, the Fatherhood of God– and True Manhood!!
Linda Marie, you are a heretic and schismatic.
The following was posted by another on this web site. Read it an ask forgiveness for your sins on your public denigration of the Mass.
QUOTE: ” APOSTOLIC TRADITION and ECCLESIAL TRADITION –
To all who are arguing over which Mass is correct, or better, the – Ordinary Form (aka OF), or the Extraordinary Form (aka EF, Latin Mass) you need to understand:
The difference between Tradition that can not be changed – and – Tradition that can be changed by any Pope.
CCC: ” 83 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus’ teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.
* * * * Tradition is to be DISTINGUISHED from the various theological, disciplinary, LITURGICAL or devotional TRADITIONS, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church’s Magisterium. ”
The Popes have changed the liturgy of the Mass in the Latin Rite (and other approved Rites) many times since the time of the Apostles.
Popes have the authority to do this from Christ, Himself.
PETE: YOU ARE A BULLY AND INCORRECT IN YOUR PRONOUNCEMENTS.
You do, however, demonstrate rather vividly the weak man crisis afflicting the Church. Your ideology which blindly defends a rite of mass and shift in approach (VII) demonstrates your unwillingness for not only robust, masculine debate, but your weakness in needing to devolve into name calling contests with a strong, devout woman who has every right to express her concerns with regard to what effects Holy Mother Church.
Nobody is debating the right of anyone to change. Rather some are beginning to call into question your motives, PETE, for pretending that continued change to the extent of potentially abrogating a rite of mass that has proved problematic are beyond the scope of Church authority.
Are YOU denying the Church’s ability to change in future? Are YOU fixated on believing that the Novus Ordo, even if it should prove to be a completely failed rite for its inherent weaknesses, could be abrogated?
Are you a heretic, PETE? Do you believe that discussing plainly the delivery system by which the Church feeds the Faithful is beyond touching? If so, then you should be more compassionate to those who are focused on the TLM. For you, time seems to be stuck in the 60’s. For you treat the magisterium as a dead entity and one without the capacity to recognize the richness of previous methods. That’s pretty limiting and narrow minded thinking, PETE.
Ann Malley, we already you are a heretic. It is not that you support the EF Mass. There is nothing wrong with this.
It is in your personal bad mouthing of the OF Mass.
There is nothing wrong for those who choose to attend and verbally support the EF Mass. I do the same.
It is heretical to “bad mouth” in any way the OF Mass.
Go back and read many of your posts, and the post of Linda Marie.
This is what heretic and schismatic Linda Marie has posted:
” The babyish, secularized, liberal Novus Ordo Mass, looks silly, compared to the professional, excellent, ORTHODOX, ancient, manly, old Latin Mass! ”
This is sinful.
PETE, sorry, but you are not mature. You have no idea what you are talking about! Ann Malley is correct!
PETE is not a bully! It is you, because you are on a faithful Catholic website, who’s owner is faithful to the Magesterium and you come on here spreading your anti V2 sentiments, so stop bullying the lay faithful here! Linda Maria your comments are uncalled for and you bring forth division.
Ann Malley uses the same intimidation as the homosexuals use, they call everyone a bully who does not agree with them. Plus Ann Malley you have no authority to tell PETE what you just did. He is in his right because Linda Maria did make comments that hurt and divide Christ and His church.
Go back, PETE, and look to the NO rite of mass, how it was produced, how it was promulgated and how it is constructed to allow for options and how those options give way to creativity that doesn’t aid the Faith.
Look at how that rite is being treated as an untouchable enshrinement – weaknesses and all – when you are asserting left and right how we need to yield the reality that rites can and do change.
So while you get lost in looking to be offended, you miss the reality that any critical analysis of the NO being labeled as badmouthing is frustrating to the bone. And inaccurate. Pope Francis certainly doesn’t demonstrate such sensitivity to word choice when expressing his deeply held sentiments.
Why so sensitive, PETE?
Yes, look to what is being said. But also, PETE, look to why what is being said is being said. Understand the human frustration level and the uptick in language. That usually indicates that there is a serious issue that is not being adequately addressed – and in this case it is not Linda Maria’s faithfulness. That assertion is a joke.
to PETE cont:
Rather what is not being addressed is why the TLM and traditional practice is almost summarily dismissed as a possible fix to CRISIS while how to revamp the NO is entertained over and over and over ad nauseum.
So while you congratulate yourself and likely treasure your perceived fidelity for attending the EF and verbally supporting it, ask yourself WHY you do that and maybe you’ll come to the realization that it is more than just mere preference that bids you seek the TLM.
Calling other folks heretics because they speak these motives in their zeal is neither evil or heresy. It’s called being honest. That and just plain tired of witnessing the pride of life.
Abecca Christian– It is good, that you have a Mass you love– the Novus Ordo– and feel close to Christ in it! But there are very good reasons, for deep concern with this Mass, and with Vatican II!! The U.S.C.C.B, was correctly worried about the troubled Novus Ordo Mass translations, for many years– and tried to improve it! Read books by Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI, emeritis) on the collapse of the Mass– etc.! Read books by Raymond Cardinal Burke! Or, just see what you, yourself! Yes– I am flat-footed, and emotional– but so are many great, faithful Catholic Churchmen– like Cardinals Burke, Pell, etc.– remember the five, faithful Cardinals, with their book on upholding the Church’s teachings on Marriage and morality?? Do you think that Cardinal Burke– is a “divisive bully??” He says the same things I do! It’s great that you love the Novus Ordo– but many mature, great Churchmen– have deep concerns!
…very charitable and measured response, Linda Maria. God bless you for your patience. Reading is such a grace.
First off Linda Maria i attend both forms of Mass. But mostly the EF. We helped get us a parish. 2nd it is called OF ordinary form. 3rd you are clearly embracing schismatic and heretical views and falsely representing Cardinal Burk and Emeritus Benedict. They are in full communion with Rome and do not blast the EF and OF mass because they are both holy. They do not say comments like the whole church has gone bad or anti V2 comments which you often make here. Go to confession. Father illo would not approve of your unfaithful comments that you often make here.
Abeca, it is not clear that Linda Maria is embracing heretical and/or schismatic views. Perhaps you should discuss your penchant for playing chief confessor, beginning with Fr. Illio since you seem to be opting him as your latest beating stick. I doubt he’d take kindly to your trying to assume another’s job or your dismissal of the analysis others have done of the Novus Ordo.
Also, while enjoying the fruits of the TLM in your area, you may not want to close your mind to the spiritual reality that, while you attribute getting a TLM parish to “we”, you very often seem to negate the sufferings, prayers, struggles and sacrifices of others in the Mystical Body, that is the greater “WE”, who aided in obtaining that blessing. Sufferings that continue when those who are blinded by their own perception of fidelity berate others who have suffered and still are.
The spiritual life is not all about what “you” see.
Happy Mother’s Day, Abeca. Try asking Our Lady to convert sinners. Refer all to her and relax. Other viewpoints, if they are wrong, will disappear on their own if there is no real “truth” in them. So let them speak. Pope Francis surely encourages as much.
Thanks, Ann Malley! I appreciate your posts! I think Abeca needs much more education and literacy, in regards to Vatican II, and the problems with it, and with the New Mass! Fr. Illo (much younger, than I!) has the same views I do– and has been sadly misunderstood, and persecuted, by ignorant, so-called “Catholics,” uneducated in our Church’s Traditions!! Bigoted, young, worldly, feminist “know it alls,” who have NO IDEA as to what Catholicism truly is!! Just like the bully, “know-it-all,” Abeca! Catholicism did not start after the Council! And you are NOT necessarily a good Catholic–merely by reading two books– the Bible, and the recent, 1994 Vatican II Catechism ( I think the Baltimore Catechism is by far, superior!) The practice of our Faith is not a “do-it-yourself,” Protestant-style, layman’s project! Good priests, like Fr. Illo– are trained, to guide the Catholic faithful! Abeca seems to be spiritually blind!! What a shame! I will continue, if possible…
I will continue, with my above post. I so appreciate your posts, Ann Malley! Wonderful! Anyway– as for Abeca’s ridiculous comments- Abeca should at least try to read the short book, the “Ratzinger Report,” which is full of valid criticisms and concerns, regarding the Council, and the New Mass! There are also many more good books, on the subject! And yes– Cardinal Burke has intelligently criticized the Council, and the New Mass! To have valid concerns and criticisms, Abeca– does NOT mean, you are “not in communion with Rome!” Ridiculous! As for the terms, “Ordinary” or “Extraordinary” Forms– I do not use these new terms– I view them as POLITICAL TERMS, to promote one form of the Mass, over the other! The ancient, nearly 2000-year-old Tridentine Mass, is our original Mass! Why call it “Extraordinary Form,” and the 1969 New Mass– our “Ordinary” form?? Abeca sounds like a too-young, “politically-correct,” bullying, “Vatican II-ONLY” believer!
I hear ya, Linda Maria. “Youthful” zeal (and I’m not only talking about ‘young’ people) can be a good thing, but only guided by seasoned intellects with a mind to understand more than just what is written. That is the truly pious, holy and “thinking” priests, bishops, and even religious sisters that we need.
But too often the older heads that we used to be able to rely on without having to question – inside the Church and everywhere else for that matter – are no longer reliable. Not always out of malice, either, but due to a highly effective saturation campaign of dis-information. Social engineering is not exclusive.
God bless and keep posting. I’m glad you’ve got what looks for all appearances to be a strong, determined and wholly Catholic lead at Star of the Sea. About time :)
Pete– you act like a baby! Top, faithful Cardinals of the Church, who are very devout– have publicly criticized the New Mass of 1969– and no, it is NOT “heretical,” to give rightful criticisms, due to MATURE, intelligent concerns!! GROW UP!!
Thanks, Ann Malley! Very excellent reply to PETE!
Wrong Linda Maria…you are very wrong!
Abeca, to quote, you have no authority. And no seasoning either.
Encouraging others who declare a faithful Catholic woman a heretic, a woman, mind, who has been through hell and back living in San Francisco through its endless heyday while still maintaining the Faith, is to encourage rash judgment. Calumny too.
You don’t see the priests online declaring Linda Maria a heretic. Do you? Even Fr. Bob B didn’t call me a heretic back in the day.
God give us strong and seasoned LEADERSHIP! We need it
It’s hard to see how people who run around slamming the mass and ecumenical councils, and by implication Popes and Bishops, can be said to be “faithful” or “traditional”.
Ann Malley writes: “look to the NO rite of mass, how it was produced, how it was promulgated and how it is constructed to allow for options and how those options give way to creativity that doesn’t aid the Faith.
Look at how that rite is being treated as an untouchable enshrinement – weaknesses and all – when you are asserting left and right how we need to yield the reality that rites can and do change.”
Ann Malley, once again, why are you on a Catholic website-and a Catholic NEWS website.? There are many forums and sites and blogs where people will gladly discuss these things with you. Most of the people here are faithful Catholics- you want doubting or troubled Catholics. There are a few here. But most of us are not interested in the slightest in these things. It is what it s. If the Church goes back to the TLM-fine. If it makes adjustments to the Mass-fine. They can do that. We are not interested in 50 year old gossip. If you were actually present at Vatican II or at the Vatican during those years, we would love to hear your experiences. But if you just read some book or website about them-no. Because if we were interested in it, we would have already read those books and websites.
If you want to talk about things that are pertinent and faithful, fine. No one objects to that. You think the TLM would bring in more men? You’re entitled to your opinion. People not agree with you but no one is going to be offended by it. Stick to the topic. Stick to the Faith. You will find that your posts are accepted and valued.
Anonymous, I am not here to have my views accepted and/or valued. I am here to state my views. If that offends you, well, that offends you… and however many others. That is their affair.
I firmly believe a more robust rite of mass draws men and keeps them. That is also my experience. To say as much doesn’t equate to heresy or unfaithfulness unlike you’ve been trained.
Take it as you like. I also find the touchiness about not wanting and/or being capable of discussing as much without an almost irrational over-reaction rather indicative of a female caricature. Men are called to be, or should be, those who can and do discuss logically when called to do so. With understanding and wisdom, not with CCC quotes and name calling.
You obviously don’t see that, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it isn’t a valid observation. If you cannot engage in a straightforward discussion about Catholic Faith and practice and need to be surrounded by like-minded individuals to assure your comfort needs are met, that is not masculine.
As to sticking with the topic, if you haven’t learned the necessity of root causing problems out in the business world, perhaps you should begin with this thread. That way you will cease to dismiss precipitating causes only to ask “why” all the time and coming up with no answer and no understanding of “how” the Church got to where She is today.
Ann Malley, says “I am not here to have my views accepted and/or valued. I am here to state my views. If that offends you, well, that offends you… and however many others. That is their affair.”
Your views are not accepted because they are not in conformity with the Catholic Faith and the Catholic Church. They offend God.
Anonymous, your reply to Ann Malley’s post– is totally ignorant! Your post is not worth a reply! Ann Malley is a faithful Catholic, and an excellent writer! You are not really interested in the Church– you are jut blabbing nonsense, for attention!
Thanks, Linda Maria. Anonymous doesn’t seem to understand that his/her love of blindness offense not only God, but thinking Catholics who care enough to ask hard questions and face difficult realities.
Here’s a good article:
They’ve got a solid crew of Catholic writers over there who are, I hope, going to encourage a more manly outlook on what it means to be a faithful MAN.
Of course its not clear to YOU Ann Malley. No surprise there.
God bless and prayers for you, too, Abeca.
Interesting Ann Malley says “prayers to you too Abeca”? She also blesses yet she calls us the dumb, deaf and willfully blind? I appreciate prayers but how are they praying? Is it in the way it pleases God? Its not for me to judge. But i am a deep person, i reflect asking our Lord to teach me to pray in which is most pleasing to Him. Often times people use words as munipulation or say things they dont mean. Ann Malley i dont know you, only from what I gather here but i cant help to wonder. I bet that you have some sort of explanation or assumption that most likely won’t be factual especially since you have so many prejudices against those who are faithful to Rome.
I wish to say one more thing! No Real Man in his right mind– accepts the definition of “manhood,” as some sort of effeminate, unisex, unkempt “hippie” jerk, who looks, acts, and thinks, like a sick, anti-society, immature juvenile delinquent– conforming to the latest “politically-correct” fad or fashion, without a mind of his own!! No American male President, in his right mind– accepts and promotes (nor mandates, with health insurance!) promiscuity, contraception, and abortion– as the “American lifestyle!” NO– he CONDEMNS it!! No American male President, in his right mind– accepts and promotes gay sex perversions, and so-called gay “marriage!” Nor does he allow such a sick and immoral situation in his country– as “gay adoptions!” He PROTECTS children! And he CONDEMNS all sex perversions!!
As though anyone reads, cares about, or follows the screeds of LM, taken right out of a 1968 Nixon memo.
If you have so much difficulty finding real men, perhaps you are seeking after something you never experienced or lost decades ago.
Leave your pathetic screeching in your own home. The dogs come out and howl everytime you post.
The fact that you label Linda Maria’s observations as screed indicates your unwillingness to read the reality memo of this modern age, Anonymous.
Either that or you have no understanding of the ‘real’ men described in her post. More’s the pity for you. And for society. At least some folks can recall what men were like – or are gifted by a rare encounter. Some have managed to snag the rare find.
And, yes, small enclaves of these “real men” do exist. Believe it or not, they are stealthily rearing more of the same, who, as Linda Maria states, are taught that defending children and rejecting sexual perversion is a man’s job!
That’s kind of the point of this entire thread – the reality that there is a dearth of true masculinity. The reason being it is zealously hammered down by beta-male activists and wanna-be-men (i.e. rabid feminists) intent on delivering the Church and Society over to – who cares? – so long as it goes.
God bless you, Linda Maria, for keeping it real!
I remember talking to two Catholic pals in college back in the early 60s about our dismal performance as Catholics. None of us had been going to Mass and didn’t really know any Catholics going to Mass (other than our parents who we joined when we were home). The jist of the conversation was that we would marry women who would get us to go to church. Only one of us married and I’m pretty sure he goes to Mass regularly. I didn’t go to Mass between age 18 and 39 and then I slowly reverted. Jesus had been calling me, but I hadn’t been listening.
I go regularly now and volunteer my services at church. I don’t believe the third of our group goes to Mass at all.
The fact that fewer Catholics are marrying at all these days does not bode well for getting Cathoic men back to Mass.
I really liked what you posted: disarming candor, RM, about the way men really think.
Also, a serious warning: if men no longer choose to marry, “for cultural reasons”, what will be the ultimate reckoning for us before God Our Lord.
I have 3 boys. Only one is still going to Church and also making rosaries for those who need one. I am so content with his situation but I have 2 who will not even talk religion with me.. Their answer is “I don’t want to talk about it”, This indicates to me they must think about it some times!! All I can do is pray for them and tell them I hope they think about all of what I can tell them is: IF I get to Heaven I want to see them there with me
Margaret – Have you ever considered asking your Sons who now avoid Church – that when the come to visit, they accompany / escort you to Mass?
Mother’s Day, Birthday, Anniversary – it doesn’t need to the a High Holy Day to have them Escort You, as they would if it were to another event that was Important Enough to you to want their company and them to provide it gracefully..
This is not saying you should try to bend their arms to change or participate or return, if they don’t want to. Simply getting them to accompany you and sit in the Pew throughout a Mass, as they presumably did when younger – can be an acorn that will grow to a mighty oak, one day.
The simple fact is that Many People Raised as Catholics, come Back to the Catholic Church – often after trying to live according to Catholic Principles without benefit of the Church itself… This is the ole ‘I can do it alone’ mistake, which is made by many when they are younger and experience is lacking, but which can can be repented and Changed – even if the past itself cannot.
Just a thought – Maybe worth trying
To reply to the post of Ray Marshall– I think many men who marry, finally grow up, leave behind their teen-age years, attain manhood, become “family-oriented,” accept responsibility as husbands and fathers, and see their responsibilities to God and the Church. But many men– married or single– sadly never grow up at all, to mature manhood and its responsibilities– in the “Hippie-Me-Generation!”
Linda Maria once you put your views in a box, they have set rules like Robots, if they don’t go your way then you discount their humanity. You probably wont get this one but i wouldn’t be surprised if you make up something to cover up your pride.
No, Abeca– I do not “put things in a box!” Read the article! We DO have a “MAN-Crisis,” in our Church and in our society! It has a lot to do with being morally-decent, mature, and responsible! And YES– that is what is called for, when one grows up! Maturity, responsibility, and good morals!
Linda Maria i would love to answer you with all your concerns but no answer would suffice Because you are not ready to listen. It will be in God’s time. Answering you was done various of occasions and all we receive from you is anger full replies. The respect was lost when you leaned on mankind and its sins and ignored Christ’s promises to His church. Yes this church run by sinners but we are still His church. I don’t think you will get that. Even if it has been expressed to you before but you keep thinking ill. Im sorry, i wish i could help you. Just look to Christ with a meek and humble heart. Pax Christi.
What you point out is true, Linda Maria. But unlike the hippie generation of today, in past generations, men who refused to “grow up” were frowned upon in responsible circles – today, not so much as the circle of Peter Pan has grown. Much thanks to the massive social endorsement rabid feminism, the pill, divorce, shacking up, illegitimacy, abortion, etc.
Although a walk through history can also reveal things like the “Demimonde” culture as seen in classics like, “GIGI.” And the reprobate anti-heroes in Jane Austin novels. But at least evil and sin was addressed as evil and sin. Having clarity helps men and women in this regard.
Excellent post, Ann Malley! You are correct– the immoral, rich playboys, and “anti-hero” reprobates of many years ago, in history, and all the “Peter Pans” who refused to grow up and take responsibility– may have had some acceptance, (or, “tolerance”) in society– but were ultimately frowned upon, as societies did understand right from wrong, and accepted basic Christian morality, ultimately. But since the 1960’s era– the understanding of good and evil, sin and virtue, responsibility and immaturity— has been trashed by crackpot liberals, psuedo-intellectual misfits, unstable, immoral, radical activists, and “hippies” with partying, dope, “free sex,” and rock “music!” The devil is having his day!
MEN need to VOLUNTEER as Altar Servers, Ushers, lectors, cantors, extra ordinary ministers of the Eucharist,
religious education leaders within their own Parish.
Your Parish Priest will make certain you are trained, and that you are only scheduled when you are not working (and would be at Mass anyway).
You will be setting a manly example for your own children and other boys in the Parish.
There are no excuses for laziness.
What will Jesus say to you on your particular judgment day ?
I agree MEGAN. Its good what you posted, it helps our already busy priests when the lay faithful speak up and encourage. This takes a group effort.
The SYNOD on the FAMILY (2015) will be a total FAILURE if it does not:
1) REQUIRE all Seminaries to use the “Catechism of the Catholic Church” (CCC) of 1997 as a REQUIRED text for all students.
(Priests can not teach what they do not know accurately.)
2) REQUIRE each Diocese and Parish to promote the reading of a Catholic Bible and also the CCC by all literate Catholics AT HOME – through their web sites, Church bulletins, and other means of communication.
(People can not live by or teach their children and others what they do not know accurately.)
There would have been no need for a “Synod on the Family” if Diocese Bishops (and their Priests) did their first task of teaching – accurately and completely.
Accurate and complete teaching is the SOLUTION to almost all of the issues discussed at the Synod of 2014.
We need solutions (education), not hand waving
and contributing to the Mortal Sins of others by trying to change the “Doctrine of the Faith” to suit those who choose to continue to live in Mortal Sin.
If in one parish, we could just have an experiment. All the women go on strike –not lector, not EM, not RICA, not catechize, not anything else except show up for Mass as usual–and keep it up for a whole year. Would the men step forward? Maybe, maybe not, but there might be material in it for a research paper.
Caroline – excellent point!
The reason women volunteer for these many ministries (e.g., altar servers, lectors, Eucharistic ministers, catechists, etc.) is because they love God and want to serve Him. In our parish, the divide is about 50/50 between females and males, but in some parishes the men are working many jobs to support the family and don’t have the time to volunteer. Our parish is wealthy, so the men have more time.
Men must read a Catholic Bible and the CCC at home. Not only for their own education, but as an example for all their children.
Men must volunteer to be Altar Servers, at their own parish.
This will set the example for your children, especially your sons.
Remember that married men can be ordained Deacons in the Catholic Church.
You may want to look into this.
CCC: ” 1570 Deacons share in Christ’s mission and grace in a special way.
The sacrament of Holy Orders marks them with an imprint (“character”) which cannot be removed and which configures them to Christ, who made himself the “deacon” or servant of all.
Among other tasks, it is the task of deacons to assist the bishop and priests in the celebration of the divine mysteries, above all the Eucharist, in the distribution of Holy Communion, in assisting at and blessing marriages, in the proclamation of the Gospel and preaching, in presiding over funerals, and in dedicating themselves to the various ministries of charity. “
MAX I agree. That is why I am very much against alter girl servers. A good holy priest from the OF, said that he agreed with me and that there was nothing wrong with me disagreeing with that and how many in the church just ran with the idea of alter girl servers. I just noticed that priests are vowed to be obedient but they lack the understanding that they can still obey and still speak up against having alter girls.
We have an order called Miles Christi https://www.mileschristi.org/
….they do St. Ignatius Spiritual Exercises. They do a great job of helping with this need in men but I still feel that they need more resources and knowledge that affect our men and how to hold them accountable through transparency. More needs to be done, more education on hard core issues affecting families. These modern days have more complex issues that need well thought out research and knowledge, to help reach solutions and help our men be more confident and secure in the faith.
You are correct, the CCC, Bible, prayer and fasting, those are an excellent start. The bible really does give a person a more personal relationship with our Lord, lead by the Holy Ghost, to help direct ones mind and hopefully instill fear of the Lord.
Max, your suggestion that men be ordained Deacons is a good one. It is also a lot of work. In our Diocese it is a five year process of discernment, learning and formation. Because of the lack of Priests, many dioceses are relying on Deacons to help carry the load. They are ordained so they can do many things that the Priest can do. We need more of them. About the only thing they cannot do is hear confession and say Mass. Very often it is up to the local Bishop to decide if there will be Deacons.
Just like a Priest, a Deacon must be ordained by the Bishop.
Yes it is a lot of work.
Volunteering to be an Altar server, Usher, lector, cantor, extra ordinary ministers of the Eucharist, is not work, since you will be at Mass anyway. No excuses on these.
I appreciate how Matthew James Christoff: addressed the issue with SYNOD as well, he is correct on how they just focus on the dysfunctional but yet there is a need for a solution. For instance, I am seeing more and more, in Traditional families, that there is a need to address the porn issues and how it affects woman and their children. Men have admitted to having porn issues and their wives do not even know. Often times they go to confession, confess their porn issue, then to find themselves viewing it or participating in it again shortly weeks after. Confession is good but addressing the porn issue would be best if there was more resources holding these men accountable. Our priests are even having these issues, whether people admit to it or not, but even in very traditional parishes, men and priests have these ongoing issues, often times kept a secret, these sins bring forth a lot of shame, which it should but often times not addressed with resources and solutions. So how can our men if they are needing help in healing from sins that are overpowering their lives. I have several friends who are going through this issue, we had to intervene and help them, in hopes that they would not end up in divorce situations, and in these cases, they are families very Traditional, who are finding themselves alone and not having enough support from their priest. It is not the lack of, perhaps it is the lack of knowledge and accountability on the issues that affect families and how sin affects it when they are not addressed accurately.
“…For instance, I am seeing more and more, in Traditional families, that there is a need to address the porn issues and how it affects woman and their children.”
This idea that traditional priests are not aware of and/or addressing the common problem of men regarding custody of the eyes is absurd. Of course traditional priests know of this problem. It has been a problem since the beginning of time – hence the call for modesty all around. As a rule, traditional priests are the ones who more often than not bring up the issue of the temptation to impurity in sermons, etc. These priests are too often knocked for admonishing the flock to shun movies, racy television programs, provocative music, etc that only seed the ground with all manner of filthy potential.)
Traditional priests as a rule hold men accountable in the confessional and they also can help women see how they could better help their husbands – something “they” are bound to do by way of marriage vows. (This is something women can often reject because they are wrapped up in “feeling” they have grounds for divorce. Helping or trying to understand an erring and weak spouse is a big cross to carry…. but it can be done, especially without any “new” methods of support. That said, yakking with a solidly Catholic girlfriend who won’t side with the woman against the mean priest helps a lot. Many problems cannot be solved either, Abeca, but must be endured.)
You may have uncovered the problem.
Being told not to think about something makes people think about it more.
What is a Traditional Priest ?
I thought all faithful Priests are required to adhere to the Bible and CCC regardless of the Order.
Ann Malley that is not the experience my two friends, who left Traditional parishes, had. Glad that you had better experience. You are also incorrect to assume that women can be wrapped up in feelings, you are part of the problem as to why men do not take accountability. Your comments are ill informed and hurt woman and children, who have gone through a lot. You are terrible on how you posted, it is an issue we have with you here. You work against women and do not hold men accountable. Praise God that people are getting better informed and leaving behind your backward ways of thinking, because it was your thinking that also helped produce feminism….
Abeca– you actually sound strangely uneducated, and unnecessarily BIGOTED– “Archie Bunker”-style– towards the very great, 2,000+ year-old Catholic Tradition of our Church!! You sound strangely “Protestant,” and strangely frightened, of anything before the Council, which ended in 1965! (Just a few short years ago!) Perhaps you are too young to have ever known anything, before the Council. But Abeca– millions of YOUNG Catholics, and their families, are re-discovering TRADITION– and FALLING IN LOVE with it, and RUNNING TO THE OLD LATIN MASS!! Many young Catholics, are also running to join traditional religious orders, and become priests and nuns! Go find out why! Then, you won’t be scared, won’t think you are “getting bullied,” won’t see it as “divisive” (its not!), won’t mistakenly think devout Traditional Catholics are “heretics”– and won’t have “bigot” misinformation, and silly superstitions!! I bet you will be thrilled, with your discoveries!!
Abeca, it is wholly accurate to state that some women can be wrapped up in feelings. Too wrapped in feelings. That is often why some women bristle at strong male leadership and comments that are often true, but not wrapped in soft words. (Men can stereo-typically not think of feelings, not at all, especially those of their wife. That doesn’t mean men don’t love their wives.)
I am not terrible for posting, but rather a little more blunt than what your sensibilities prefer. That doesn’t equate to being mean, ill intended or incorrect.
Your focus on wording and being nice in your delivery is nothing but a testament to your focus on feelings, Abeca. That’s just you. And that’s okay But a man with a pornography addiction is never going to be a pretty thing. Oftentimes, a woman’s best defense is to compartmentalize her emotional pain as much as she can and deal with the issue like it is a sickness. One she must help her husband overcome. (Remember, we’re talking about “Catholic” marriage which means death do us part. You talking about this approach being the reason for feminism is a moot as the idea is to help heal the marriage, not avenge one’s hurt, however justified.)
You may try to cast that as being backward or contributing to the pain of women. I call it being practical for the problem of men with erring eyes and desires is nothing new. Sadly. That is why, if one can address matters pragmatically, one can navigate a little easier.
I appreciate your observations in these posts, Ann Malley! Excellent!
I think Ann Malley is correct, in her above posts– most Traditional priests are very serious, about the Catholic Faith, and teaching morals, and administering the Sacrament of Penance. I have read about, and heard testimonies of both devout Catholic and devout Protestant wives, who decided to remain very strong in their Marriage Vows, when discovering their husbands were unfaithful, or porn-addicted– plus, having many children to raise! (This was mostly in the 1940’s and 1950’s.) These wives developed a spiritual backbone of steel, in prayer, mortifications, and spiritual devotions, as well as reception of the Sacraments– or church-going, if Protestant. It may have taken perhaps twenty or thirty years– but in these true stories, their husbands finally, by the grace of God–were converted, repented of sin– and came back to the church as strong, devout church-goers, and their sacred Marriage Vows were saved! God can work miracles! But these situations are very difficult!
Blessed Anna Maria Taigi and St. Monica and St. Rita all became saints despite very difficult marriages. Look to these strong helpmates, mother’s, soldiers of Christ!
Yes, it hurts deeply when those closest to us abuse us, betraying in the most intimate and sublimely painful ways. But that is where the Imitation of Christ lies. Embrace it. Endure it. Conquer it! (I’d say “love” it, but loving the cross is a sublime gift.)
Think of Our Lady at the foot of the Cross. That helps when needing to find the strength to stay and even forgive when it’s hard. And as Linda Maria says, the grace will come.
And Linda Maria, I greatly appreciate your posts, too!
Ann, your may 12 post is brilliant…the sort of wisdom that mothers used to pass on to their daughters! I’m typing this with one finger so I’ll be brief, but something many don’t discuss is the impossible expectations of men and marriage created by soap operas and romance novels. When difficulties arise as they always do,women so often expect their husbands to react like ——-(name of hero) who asks his woman what is wrong,and talks interminably about her feelings. Ha. Anyway, in real life we can’t change people…only ourselves. We grow and mature through suffering and we grow closer to Jesus when we’re weakest. to use a military metaphor “stay your ground…move lightly in heavy territory.” I think the women you mentioned became saints because of their bad marriages. It’s how we deal with what we’re dealt. even with one finger I natter on. :)
“…I think the women you mentioned became saints because of their bad marriages.”
This is my view as well, Dana. As those who seem to have the “perfect” marriage would never have the impetus to turn as deeply to Our Lord and, in so doing, understand HIS pain and conquering love. That is the “will” to love, not the feeling.
When one’s spouse is imperfect, we seek that which is the only Spouse of our soul. A husband or wife is merely a vehicle to sanctification. Not the end all.
That’s why deep pain/suffering needs to be met with a Catholic mentality (and that is a military one, too.) As God only asks those He desires to advance to glory to carry others while wounded to the point of breaking.
I hope it’s only a matter of a device that limits you to one finger typing … being an artist can often take a toll on the hands. :)
I think Abeca “Christian,” would prefer the “faithful to Rome” German bishops, and their chosen future priests in their chosen seminaries! Very good Catholics– the BEST!! “IN UNION WITH ROME!!” Very orthodox, faithful, moral, and the Pope’s favorites!! Very, very “Vatican II,” and definitely NOT “schismatic/heretical!” Oh, the Pope’s “political” favorites, the BEST of the BEST– especially at the Synod on the Family, in October! By the way– the SSPX is NOT considered by Rome– as Abeca and Pete’s silly, childish, hateful terms, “schismatic,” nor “heretical!” Those are BABYISH terms, to hurl at good people! You two do not understand the meaning of these words! IGNORANT!!!!
Pete– you act like a baby! Top, faithful Cardinals of the Church, who are very devout– have publicly criticized the New Mass of 1969– and no, it is NOT “heretical,” to give rightful criticisms, due to MATURE, intelligent concerns!! GROW UP!!
Linda Maria no Pete is not acting like a baby. Its you. Your disrespectful to him because you are not humble enough to understand his message of truth. You don’t know the faith, your a hyped up follower of schismatic views. Its the cancer affecting the church because thats what the actions of SSPX have produced. Now your opinion of me, read my LETTERS, i dont care. Its Jesus whom i follow not your ill opinions. You have beautiful convictions, moral ones which are appreciated but the ones that that good Catholics are trying to correct in you, you keep fighting us because you are an elder set in her ways. Follow Jesus ways not yours. You keep ditching the real reason why you are being admonished. You and Ann Malley produce nothing more than just bickering and confusion. You want to worship Ann Malley, who admitted not being in communion with Rome but instead attends SSPX, even knowing that the church gives their warnings about them, then it is not Jesus whom you follow. So I want no part in your point of view there. Just because youre an elder, it gives you no right to be disrespectful to us who are faithful to Christ and His church.
So, FYI, Linda Maria, expect to come under [highly personal] attack if you don’t conform to the official party line in the continually evolving/emerging “New Church.”
The facts of the reality you encounter (just as those of Janek, St Christopher, others) can’t really be controverted: they have to be denied as fact. It is a sign of the intellectual bankruptcy of those who oppose the well-founded bases you have articulated for your thinking.
Just a word of encouragement: “Do not be afraid!” (Isaiah 41:10). It appears 365 times in the OT and NT. Encouragement for every day of the year.
It was also the spell-binding first words of P. John Paul II in his address to then-communist Krakow, Poland on the occasion of his 1979 visit: the enormous crowd went wild: and Communist Poland collapsed.
Linda Maria, as a friend used to tell me, ‘don’t sweat the small stuff’ and that is what you’re dealing with here…someone very small and very petty. (the mouse that roared) As I said in Ann’s post, we can’t change people…especially when they might be going through menopause. I like to err on the side of kindness. You never know what someone might really be going through. As I look out my window and see acres of lush green trees, wildflowers and song birds on the wing, I feel so utterly grateful for everything I have. But even when we had blizzards, I was grateful just to be alive. I can natter on endlessly now, Ann Malley, I’ve got all ten fingers on my lap top. It’s my tiny little phone that limits expression, but thanks for thinking of my poor hands. You’re so thoughtful!
Glad to know the ten magic digits are all in proper order, Dana. Natter at will. But always, always enjoy that view. “I” am green.
God bless and, Linda Maria, Dana’s right on.
Let’s remember who and what we’re dealing with. Principalities and Powers. That and a heavy dis-information campaign that could freeze Hell itself.
Ann Malley–excellent post! I appreciate your observation!
This issue is happening in even protestant churches too. I think that this is nothing new, even in St. Augustine era, woman have been more of the ones actively participating in their faith. We hear about St. Augustine’s mother who prayed 20 years for her sons conversion and even her husband was not leading his children in the faith. Even in the era of St. Rita etc. Even my great grandmother and my grandmother, it was our traditional grandparents who practiced and lived their faith more and the woman encouraged that greatly. It was a time that woman where the ones who decided on the faith in which their children would be raised in. Especially if the marraige was divided on that. Of course back them men had more Godly convictions because we had common decency and common sense and men feared the Lord more. But with Hollywood, video games, porn being so easily accessibly through secret options like facebook, computers, drug use, contraception, legalized abortion, divorce being so high up in numbers, homosexuality etc etc….. these are sins that highly hurt our men and women, especially there is a high number of attacks on manhood. It is very disturbing to see.
This is a good topic. Women who honor God and seek to be pleasing to our Lord and our blessed mother, need to be highly concerned and are. I am a woman, but I can not lead men to do their duty as men, it would take men with convictions in our Lord, faithful to the Magesterium, to lead. To be transparent with honor and integrity, with character, traits that need to be instilled in our men, to be sincere in their attempt to fear the Lord. Often times, even on here in this website, we see more comments from women as well and all we see is no solutions but only bickering. Women who work against other women, especially on issues of being in full communion with Rome. Some in which are not faithful to the real mission of the church, forces that attack any good effort to move our church forward.
I think that this issue is not new. I pray that more of our godly men would not be intimated even if this world works against them, but I pray that they unite and help lead better this church and their families. We should write to our priests and bishops, letting them know of our concern of this and help encourage our men to be men. Our young men need to look up to their fathers once again and trust in that security, in that gift from God that God gives to them. God holds special gifts from men and women, gifts that help with this crises and many of those gifts are unique because certain things are better lead by men and certain gifts are better left for women. That is why we need to protect and defend the true definition of marriage as well.
Abeca– before you write– why not read a great deal, and get a lot of experience with the Church, too? You are strangely bigoted,, like a sort of “know it all,” yet– what do you know?? Not enough, when you write! You seem so bigoted, controlling, misinformed– preaching a dangerous, too-idealistic adherence, to the modern, only-50-years-old Vatican II Church– very unstable, very shaky, very unreliable, very morally untrustworthy, very “political”– and corrupt! You may someday find your idealism tragically deceived, and betrayed! Just wait until the Oct. Synod on the Family! Uh, oh!! Well– you have to make your peace with Christ, and so does everyone! But you are too strangely bigoted! Why not read widely, listen to people, get more experience– and watch! Support true Catholics, and true priests and nuns– wherever you may find them– Novus Ordo, Traditional– or even faithful Anglican, Byzantine, and Orthodox Catholics! That is our only hope, for the real Church– NOT the external, post-Vatican II deceptively- shaky institution— with a disregarded Magisterium, forgotten, in a book!!
Sound advice for us all, Linda Maria! Thank you and Happy Mother’s Day.
Not sure if you have children, but even if you have your own, you are no doubt the spiritual mother of a great deal.
Bless you, Ann Malley! You write so beautifully! You are a wonderful, faithful Catholic! Thanks for all your wonderful posts!
Practically everywhere you look, you will find male Catholics who have given up the faith, and have stopped being Catholic. I am specificaclly writing about men in the news profession who have abandoned the Church. Example: Greg G. who is one of the hosts of THE FIVE on Fox News. He is now an agnostic. The Church neglected these men when they were in high school and colllege by not only dumbing down Catholicism, but also making it hyper feminine. This is especially evident in the litugry. The Church once stressed manly virtures, and called living Catholics THE CHURCH MILITANT. With all the peace and feminine virtues being over emphazied, males now no longer feel wanted or comfortable in the Church, and believe there is no place for them.
Pillar, I agree, and it’s true in public schools and the job force. Even jobs such as firemen are bring filled by women who can’t even pass the physical. Boys are escaping into video games and failing in school and are being forced into behavior that is utterly foreign to active, curious little boys. Feminism is destroying the family first then ripples out into schools, organizations, politics and churches. Someone has to sacrifice for the good of family and society…traditionally that was women, who felt valued for their commitments. It’s not a perfect world….we get that…but there are still many women like ourselves who want to step back and let men take their designated place as head of the family, serving their churches and communities . I love what Kristin wrote on May 8: “welcome back gentlemen, I’ve missed you. “. This is what’s so good about this website, that we can share our hopes and fears. Can we all please just stop the with the whole Mass mess? What unites us as Catholics? We ALL love Jesus. We love our faith…so many things.
Catholic men that have children at home and are serious about their faith really don’t much want to attend yet another event that takes them away from their families. The reason evangelical churches don’t have this “man crises” is because more of their events and programs are family-oriented rather than gender oriented. We need to reinforce and strengthen families and see families united in Mass attendance and other church-sponsored events. Our parish has a pretty lively and active men’s group, yet the demographic is about 90% men whose kids are grown or who themselves have already retired.
Reading the Bible and CCC can be done – at home, and alone or together as a Family.
This is both learning and teaching the Faith.
There’s been a man crisis for many years. What makes men men, is far more complicated than what makes women women. It takes a father and a mother…and I feel the mother should be home, at least until the boy is six. Too many moms are protective and make their sons too dependent on them. When my son was 12 I started ‘relying’ on his decision making. Boys have to be allowed to lead and make mistakes and be counted on…a role girls have pretty much taken over. Everyone thinks this is just great and while I love my own sex and think we have many admirable qualities, think we make really rotten heads of state, of large corporations etc. There are ALWAYS exceptions, but I need only point my dainty finger at the mayors of certain large cities, sitting in congress or running for president and I can rest my case. Women take over…that’s what we do when there aren’t strong men around…does anyone think this is new? Anyway, enough of my rant…here’s a four year old video that applies to the conversation. Fathers..teach your sons to be men. Mothers, stop making your sons into weenies.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMJgZ4s2E3w#t=63
PS…Not only is this one of the best films every made, it is a manual on what makes truly manly men and truly feminine women. This could have been my great grandparents or yours. The beauty of family, faith in God and defined roles in this film should be seen by every school aged child. “How Green Was My Valley”
Love that movie. Thanks for the reminder. And it is nice when sons become another “man” in the house.
We need ’em.
Except where the younger challenges the hierarchy of the elder. :) Sometimes my dad and brother were like elk males clashing antlers. My dad never backed down, never, and frankly, it never occurred to me before this minute, but both my brothers were manly men like my dad, who respected women and the weaker among us.
That manly clash is natural, Anonymous. If one can recognize it for what it is – a natural occurrence – young men flourish and don’t go off making rash decisions. And older men can understand better that it is not their authority that is being questioned. Rather nature taking its course.
Often, explaining that reality of nature and observation of dueling testosterone, is the role of a strong, observant wife/mother.
Anonymous– a true father has the paternal responsibility, in fatherhood, to always stand his ground, firmly, on important issues, with the young. No baloney! A good priest, bishop, or Pope, must do likewise.
As bizarre and weird as this will appear, it is true. Yesterday, while waiting for a train, a young man in his very early twenties began talking to me. He said he was once a Catholic, but has renounced his faith to practice paganism. I asked him to explain this, and he said he was now a Viking, who carries sharp knifes in his pockets and he is always ready for battle. The reason why he said he quit the Church was because it was full of woosies, and it was abandoning manly virtues. This is tragic, and I believe it is becoming widespread. Oh, and to answer the question, what is a traditional priest? He is one who is faithful to his priesthood by being a man of prayer, offering daily Mass, and having a filial devotion to Our Lady. He is one who lives to serve God and who is always ready to be helpful to the faithful. He visits the hospitals, anoints the sick, hears confessions, and tries to draw people closer to Christ. He enjoys teaching the faith to others, and he models his priesthood on Saint John Vianney and other saints who strove to be an alter Christus. He knows that spiritual concerns are more important than social ones, and he is one who offers sacrifice, and not marches with political activists. That is a real, or true priest, and usually he is conservative or traditional, being a priest of the Sacred Heart of Jesus.
Father Karl, your definition of a good Priest is very well put. I have known lots of Priest who could meet your definition, in fact most Priest that I have met would meet your definition. Except, they are all devout Catholics but not overly “conservative” and would love to be political activist if they had time not doing all the other things required of them. My sidebar would be that it is hard to be Catholic and not be an activist. There is too much wrong with our society, culture, country to just sit and watch.
Men in general have and always have looked for strong male leadership in sports, military and in general to follow or look up to. It is their nature, Jesus in His Divine and also His human nature displayed strong leadership and male bravery. He stood up to the Israeli religious powers of His day. Unheard of. He stood up and faced the power of Rome and knowingly accepted Crucifixion. How many people, knowingly would do this? Most people would say, you are either crazy or very brave. Sadly today and for the last thirty years or more the Church has over effeminized Jesus to the point that it turns men off. Young men, especially, have a so-called macho, macho attitude and these are the very men that the Church is trying to catch but instead are turning them off with a feminine Jesus and not presenting HIs strong male human side, which is shown time and again in Scripture.
We need to face reality; Our bishops (not all) have become secularized, politicized (married to the Democrat Party who has now openly embraced abortin and same sex marriage and they have not made an issue of it) and to some degree sexualized. What’s needed is a close study and meditation on the lives of our first bishops chosen by Christ and make them a role model for today’s bishops who are so busy that their leadership in maintaining Christ’s WORD has not measured up to today’s need.The USCCB might start by giving up all tax exemptions; accepting funds eventually means losing control to government or anyone elese; they will the try to tell you what you can and can’t do. I find it shocking that we’ve endured 42 years of slaughtering our own children and not one bishop has been close to martydom! Leadership is the key and since only men can be bishops, that tells us we need strong masculine leadership! That’s the void our Church is suffering! Strong Apostles make strong Christians!
Writers for Life at prolifedigest.com
God bless you, Charles. Thank you for your wise post…and it is shocking about the bishops. We have to fight becoming inured to sin.
Yes, Charles, thank you for honest post. The Church must break with any who seek to buy Her…..and those eager to sell as well.
Let me think back to the 40s and 50s when I grew up. Ah yes! When you wanted something done at church you talked to the Secretary, not the Pastor. When you wanted something done at the school, you asked the Sister who was the Principal. When you wanted something at home, you asked your mother because your dad would not argue with her about policy. When we went to work in the 60s, we found out the company President’s Secretary managed his schedule and reviewed his mail before he saw it. Over the years I’ve noticed that women run just about everything and have for centuries. Let’s consider the state of the world, created by the actions of men in power. Maybe its time for a change. Women couldn’t make it any worse!
Now you are advocating for women Priests, BobOne ?
As you have stated women have been in charge for the last 45 years, and things are a mess – because men refuse to do their jobs.
No Chris, I never advocated for women Priests. We have been told that we can’t talk about that. How did you get that idea? Why are men supposed to be so different? I’m wondering if this article is written by a male who thinks he is better than any woman or that men should be better than women, or that women are incapable of serving as acolytes, or lectors, etc. I don’t get it.
BobOne, men are basically SLOTHFUL – a Capital sin, when it comes to the Faith.
Do you understand this?
Women have been doing the job for the past 40 years, and without the men being active, things are falling apart.
Poor Bob, you sound like a beaten man. Women couldn’t make it any worse? You’ve got to be kidding! If you think it’s bad under obama, just wait til Hillary takes over…just ask Vince Foster. But you’re right about women being in charge…but that’s just in Christian or at least Western countries. Wherever women are treated badly and have no voice, these are really horrid places for everyone. It’s really difficult to grasp the left’s apparent love affair with Muslims. I just don’t get it!
The left picks up tools wherever they find them. As for Hillary, scary stuff. Obama is lazy while Hillary is driven. God give us a solid candidate to counter that scourge.
“…As you have stated women have been in charge for the last 45 years, and things are a mess – because men refuse to do their jobs.”
That’s priceless. Love it.
Please click the link and read the whole interview.
This man reverted after a fight with cancer and an encounter with Jesus.
In my experience, this is the main thing that brings people back to the Church. They have a spiritual experience, an encounter with Jesus or Mary.
The following column from today’s ‘news’ paper about the reported ‘Death of Chivalry’ and dearth of ‘Good Men’ is a worthy addition to the discussion.
“Tell Men how you stand on chivalry
By Amy Alkon – ‘Advice Goddess’
But chivalry actually traces back through millions of years of evolution. As developmental psychologist Joyce Benenson writes in “Warriors and Worriers,” an excellent new book on evolved sex differences, “Throughout most of human history, men and women have specialized in different behaviors necessary to ensure the survival of their children to adulthood.”
…So, before the first date, a man should ask a woman where she stands on this (Chivalry) stuff. And you should let men know the sort of woman you are — one who responds to a door being held for her by flipping her hair and saying thank you, not twirling her mustache and snarling, “Smash the patriarchy!”
No, McDermott – the Church needs men to stop being LAZY, and start volunteering as: Altar servers, Lector, Cantors, Ushers, etc.
You are not getting off the hook by blaming women for the laziness of men.
This lack of wanting to TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for their own actions and inactions does not bode well for the character of any man –
and has nothing to do with women.
Admit it, and start encouraging MEN to volunteer.
Men must set the example for their Sons.
….you may not know this but many MEN get harassed for acting like real men. And the chief scold – women. Especially when the woman “feels” like asserting herself.
It’s as if women have been convinced that men have a switch, and women are the only one’s with the remote control. That is why many men just give up trying to please/serve – period.
There is a good, recent book, by Michael Rose, “Good-bye, Good Men.” This book relates some of the terrible problems in the crisis of Vatican II, with the priesthood, rejection of orthodoxy and Tradition– and traditional manhood! We are truly in an ongoing, serious CRISIS!! (I bet Abeca Christian will not agree– but that is fine!) For those who are HAPPY with today’s Church– they will not be interested, to learn more about this crisis! It is very intelligent, and necessary, to say what is true, and to hope for good corrections, to our Church’s problems!! Those who truly care about our Church’s crisis, must NEVER be ignorantly and maliciously labelled, a “heretic,” or “schismatic!” The Vatican II priesthood and religious orders are emptying, and there is less interest in them. However– many young men and women, are drawn to join Traditional religious orders, of priests and nuns. Many diocesan priests also are learning to say the beautiful old Latin Mass! Millions of people love our Church’s wonderful, ancient heritage! But our current Pope disagrees! Well- such is life! And the next Pope??
That book came out in 2002, so it’s not exactly “recent”. Also, although it contained many important truths, it contained some notable weaknesses as Michael Rose didn’t get all of his facts right all of the time. Read the review from E. Michael Jones’ magazine CULTURE WARS that came out shortly after it was published https://www.culturewars.com/2002/may02_ggm.html
and the material in the book was dated even when it was written.
I am a faithful, practicing Roman Catholic man and have been for over 60 years. Reading all of this back and forth about the EF Mass vs. the NO Mass is ridiculous and is enough to drive this man out of the Church! The Mass is the Mass whether celebrated in the EF or the NO! We have two Popes who have said as much!
Bob, then we can conclude that despite what 2 popes have said the creation of NO mass had caused a huge division within the Church and it maybe it needs to go
You know, there really isn’t a huge divide. There are a few hundred people who cling to the EF in every diocese, but tens of thousands more who love the OF. Even among those who miss the EF and go to EF masses, most of them actually don’t despise the OF the way that many of you do. There was ONE bishop (among many hundreds) who was so upset with the OF that he founded his own society and ordained his own bishops in disobedience to the Pope. Seeing that there were millions around the world who still clung to the Latin Mass, Pope Benedict allowed limited use of the older rite, which, one would think, would calm the nerves of those who cling to it, but if anything, you have gotten more vocal and more confrontational in your tactics.
So the notion of a church divided down the middle seems to be a creation in the minds of those of you who want to do away with the OF. In the meantime, you have folks like Bob who tell you that this constant bickering is enough to drive people away from BOTH forms, and I agree with him. It certainly doesn’t speak of Christian charity.
YFC if you knew what you were talking about Abp Lefebrve you would know that the NO mass was only part of it. There are some real genuine issues that contradict thousands of years of Catholic teaching. For one the Jews are no longer to be converted, and their covenant is considered valid and they need not recognize Christ as their Savoir. Hmm so we basically contradict Christ’s teaching so that the Jews are not offended???..
“you have gotten more vocal and more confrontational in your tactics.” You are correct YFC,, we will continue to fight until we win, because its people like you that will do all they can to destroy the EF…we will oppose you..
Canisius, that is not true. Catholic teaching comes from Scripture and Tradition. You have misunderstood something. The covenant with the Jewish people was a covenant of the earth. It had nothing to do with salvation. Christ’s teaching stands. We are to treat with respect every creature, especially human beings, made in the image of God. I do not know where you got your ideas. You have to remember that Vatican II was 20 years after the discovery of the concentration camps in Nazi Europe. The Church wants to remind men than all men are precious to God even if they have not, as yet, accepted Christ. You may be too young to remember but Jewish people were treated really badly. They were called Christ-killers and were the victim of stereotyping and had to live in ghettos in Europe. As a people, they have been persecuted. It is not Christian to treat people like that. The Church has never said that they do not need to recognize Christ as their Savior.
The truth of the situation is what has gotten more vocal and confrontational. Thanks for being a vehicle of truth, Canisius.
We need men who aren’t afraid.
” The Church has never said that they do not need to recognize Christ as their Savior.” Then why are they no longer to be preached or converted and this comes from the modern Popes…Either they recognize Christ as the Savior or they perish… end of story
Good Friday Intercession
VI. For the Jewish people
Let us pray also for the Jewish people,
to whom the Lord our God spoke first,
that he may grant them to advance in love of his name
and in faithfulness to his covenant.
Prayer in silence. Then the Priest says:
Almighty ever-living God,
who bestowed your promises on Abraham and his descendants,
hear graciously the prayers of your Church,
that the people you first made your own
may attain the fullness of redemption.
Through Christ our Lord.
This is not an example of preaching the Gospel to the Jews,,,it is currently forbidden to be done officially by the Church and that is the Truth….and no one can give an honest answer why
….if an issue that you admit to believing is ridiculous is enough to drive a “faithful” man of 60 years out of the Church, that’s another problem, Bob. There is nothing wrong in being honest regarding observations or contrasting via comprehensive analysis that which is proven fruitful to that which has showed itself to be problematic (even if only in consistent application).
You may want to try having the faith that if the Novus Ordo is fine, it will bear analysis. Theses kinds of posts smack of one who bristles at a thorough physical when it is obvious that the body is not robust and healthy as it should be. The cry of, “I’d rather die!” can often lead to precisely that outcome.
Some folks, however, don’t want to follow along.
Analysis is one thing, Ann Malley. What we have here is rarely analysis, but rather, obfuscation. It’s not analysis to say “I prefer one thing over another thing, therefore the thing I prefer is the better thing, and the other thing is a horrible mistake.”
Yes, indeed. There is obfuscation when mere talk of analysis is rejected outright. That’s not a very faith filled approach.
But then there are many aspects to the Faith that you ascribe to preference. So I can understand your desire to grow that brand name.
Ann Malley, you said “There is nothing wrong in being honest regarding observations or contrasting via comprehensive analysis that which is proven fruitful to that which has showed itself to be problematic (even if only in consistent application).”
We are still waiting for you to support your thesis or suppositions or generalizations or analysis.
Some of your ideas require assumptions which are contrary to Catholic doctrine so those always get shot down. Then you get nasty.
Also, your post are generally very difficult to read. Maybe if you could simplify your expressions and be more precise in your meanings we could get beyond the place where you feel we have gotten stuck.
Really, what do you want to analyze?
This anonymous is correct Ann m and also applies to Linda Maria. She called another a baby so she is what she called another. And who is archie? In the past Linda Maria said ” the whole church has gone bad” she is fear mongering. Her comments lack a real trust in Jesus and His promises. Also she accuses people of not knowing the faith. Shows she has an unrealistic point of view of others. Why do they have to attack people? They know that their views in schism and heretical are not the truth so they have to name call and provoke justified admonishment from others for the bickering they bring here.
Abeca– can’t you see your own failings? YOU are the name-caller, the one ignorantly accusing others of stupid terms you do not understand! And yes– people who act like that, who BULLY others ignorantly– are acting like babies! A true Christian tries to see the good in others! Why call others terms like “heretical” or “schismatic?” Pope St. John Paul II, Pope Benedict (emeritis), and Pope Francis, would never do that! Especially— to little laymen like you, like me, and millions of others! And yes– to give mature criticisms, out of deep concern– does NOT label you a “heretic,” or some stupid thing!! Why are you on a big “witch hunt,” for so-called “heretics?” That is NOT your job, Abeca! Leave such things to the top scholarly Church theologians, at the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, in Rome! You are only a little layman, like the rest of us!
Abeca, you have no basis for determining whether anyone is or is not correct. You operate on hearsay, what you’ve just discovered, or what you “think” you know.
Until then, feel free to take me off your education radar. I’ve grown past pre-school and you’ll only take my ignoring you. That said, you may want to stop ignoring what you write for you accused me of having an Archie Bunker mindset in a post only a few days old.
Keep track of what you say and/or maybe look into who Archie Bunker is. Maybe then you’ll understand that throwing around terms you don’t understand, especially when perceiving yourself to be the “faithful” authority, always backfires.
Linda Maria writes “A true Christian tries to see the good in others!”. When have you EVER done that in a post on CCD?
Its crazy that Ann Malley is asking me to look up Archie Bunker. Whos that an SSPX attendee or anti? It doesnt apply nor matter. Its all irrelevent. Shes probably a comedian. Archie or not, i bet he is not a church teaching and i wouldn’t be surprised Linda Maria is just adding her own opinions using examples that do not apply but only are her own disrespectful point of view. Its all in the eye of the beholden.
Thats right Bob. Both forms are holy and our precious Lord is there. The only ones attacking the OF are the heretics and schismatics. Dont let their words drive you away from Christ’s church because Jesus has already spoken and His promises to us are what help us distinguish what is coming from Him, the ONE who saves, or whats not. You are a noble soul and you are correct to feel displeasure in their verbal attacks against the OF and His church. Jesus words and promises through His church should be suffient enough to help us reject their man made ideologies. Stay faithful and firm. God bless you for keeping your focus on Christ, our beloved Lord. Let us die of ourselves and love Jesus now and forever. Jesus our Lord and savior. Our Alpha and Omega. We shall want no other.
Abeca you can say the OF is holy and precious and maybe it is I no longer will attend, as most of the experience have been an assault on my spiritual growth. The OF will in time be seen as one of the biggest mistakes made by the Church…
Thanks Canisius but its what the church says when its done in according to the GIRM. I attend both forms but mostly the EF also visit other rites in full communion and are very holy. Im sorry that you live in an area where there are many issues caused by sinful people. The OF i attend is holy, reverent and faithful. We have some of the most active parisheners who are fighting the good fight in moral issues affecting us today.
Abeca — don’t you know, that many Church leaders reject the Church’s Magisterium, and Morals, reject the role of the Supreme Pontiff– and are opposed to all ORTHODOXY?? They support things like birth-control, pre-marital sex, divorce, abortion, gay “marriage” — etc.! They are “in union with Rome,” only on paper– and Vatican II Popes just ignore it! Cheap HYPOCRITES!! They love “humanism,” before love of God! Well– WHO is truly ORTHODOX– and truly “in communion with the True Church?” WHO upholds the True Role of the Supreme Pontiff (he is NOT a mere, “brother-bishop,” governing in the Vatican II “collegiality” concept!) and WHO upholds the Magisterium, Moral teachings, the entire Deposit of Faith (challenging Vatican II’s wrongful “freedom of religion” belief!) — and WHO upholds the ancient, original (Tridentine) Mass?? Go find out! Yes– good Catholics and their children, cheated and betrayed by terrible, Vatican II parishes and schools– may turn to the SSPX!! Bless them!!
Life, Catholic life, is more than just your parish, Abeca.
Pray for the poor faithful in St. Petersburg Florida…. and many other dioceses where bad bishops are wreaking havoc with full authority.
“Pray for the poor faithful in St. Petersburg Florida…. and many other dioceses where bad bishops are wreaking havoc with full authority.”
Thank you Ann Malley! Our Lady of Akita warned the world about Bishop against Bishop and Cardinal against Cardinal. NO ROOM at the Inn for Traditional Catholics but PLENTY of welcoming room at the Inn for ” those so-called gifts” that lead many to the loss of Eternal life.
Our Lady of Akita and Fatima, pray for us!
Taken from Life Site News
‘FLORIDA BISHOP SUGGESTS SAME-SEX RELATIONSHIPS CAN BE ‘MARKED BY HOLINESS’
Two Florida bishops offered starkly diverging responses this week after their state judiciary redefined marriage.
While Miami Archbishop Thomas Wenski reminded diocesan employees they could face termination if they publicly suggest support for same-sex “marriage,” St. Petersburg Bishop Robert Lynch suggested in a January 6 Tampa Bay Times column that homosexual relationships present no risk to the Church, and in fact can be godly and elevate society and the Church.
“I do not wish to lend our voice to notions which might suggest that same-sex couples are a threat incapable of sharing relationships marked by love and holiness and, thus, incapable of contributing to the edification of both the Church and the wider society,” Lynch wrote.
“… We have some of the most active parishioners who are fighting the good fight in moral issues affecting us today.”
Nobody is denying this, Abeca.
How can Bishop Lynch say such shocking heresy and retain his position? What deviltry is afoot in the Church? Also, how can he stop a Latin Mass from being said? I thought no special dispensation was needed for a priest in his parish.
The resident homosexualist poster predictably asks, “What heresy?”
The Venerable Fulton Sheen responds : “Who is going to save our Church? Not our bishops and religious. It is to you, the people (LAITY). You have the minds, the eyes, the ears to save the Church. Your mission is to see that your priests act as priests, your bishops like bishops, and your religious act like religious.
” Oh, what terrible harm, what terrible harm is wrought in religious (I am referring now as much to men as to women) when the religious life is not properly observed; when of the two paths that can be followed in a religious house — one leading to virtue and the observance of the Rule and the other leading away from the Rule — both are frequented almost equally! No, I am wrong: they are not frequented equally, for our sins cause the more imperfect road to be more commonly taken; being the broader, it is the more generally favoured. The way of true religion is frequented so little that, if the friar and the nun are to begin to follow their vocation truly, they need to be more afraid of the religious in their own house than of all the devils. They must observe greater caution and dissimulation when speaking of the friendship which they would have with God than in speaking of other friendships and affections promoted in religious houses by the devil. I cannot think why we should be astonished at all the evils which exist in the Church, when those who ought to be models on which all may pattern their virtues are annulling the work wrought in the religious Orders by the spirit of the saints of old. May His Divine Majesty be pleased to find a remedy for this, as He sees needful. Amen ” – Autobiography of St. Teresa of Avila
Since I never got an answer, but got instead insults and fillibustering, let me ask Anonymous at 3:17 AM, what heresy has Bishop Lynch committed in trying to consolidate two TLM communities into one, with the benefit of being supportive of a financially non-viable ministry to Vietnamese. Where is the heresy in that? No insults please, just tell us what heresy you mean, please. Keeping in mind is that heresy is the obstenant denial of a truth required for salvation. Which truth is being denied in the Bishop’s actions?
It is rather predictable, Catherine, how the question is always “what heresy” and from one who promotes nothing but the dismantling of Church teaching and morals.
God bless and thanks again for being watchful, thoughtful, faithful and consistent.
The documents of Vatican II tells priests that they should look upon their bishop as a ‘father’. Well, fathers are supposed to lead, and have authority. Instead of leading and having a father figure, most bishop act like ‘wet nurses’. They have little or no masculine qualities about them. We the laity see this, and observe all the abuses taking place. Just this week, at the funeral on Long Island for the murdered policeman, the pro-abortion pro sodomite mayor was allowed to speak in the Catholic Church, with the bishop present ! This should have been forbidden, but to be politically correct, the bishop looked the other way. We see this, and other huge blunders that are never corrected. The bishops are spineless, and unmanly. Men are not impressed,, and will not attend a church that favors feminine traits over masculine one. Men as supposed to be knights, who defend God, the family, and country. By being treated instead like Brownies or Camp Fire Girls, men have headed towards neo-pagan practices where masculine virtues are strengthened and respected. If bishops will not fight for what is correct and true, why should men fight for it. To be more blunt: the Catholic Church is the Body of Christ, not the body of Christine ! The book GOODBYE GOOD MEN explains this also . Ave Maria Purrissima !
“….By being treated instead like Brownies or Camp Fire Girls, men have headed towards neo-pagan practices where masculine virtues are strengthened and respected.”
Thank you, Jesusita, for saying what needs to be said. The focus, aided in huge part by special interest mentalities that have nothing to do with the Catholic Church, and no love of it either, has been zeroed on how women “feel” for so long that men are have gotten the message: MEN, the real deal, need not apply.
So who are we to scold them now for responding in kind? Before the – Shame on you, volunteer! Stomp your foot and demand the men hop-to yet again – a round apology for having been marginalized and run over is in order! Perhaps a feminine appeal that, “WE need you!”
And also, when a man does volunteer, cut the overriding feminine critique/filter regarding how “he” does “his” job. Otherwise it’s nag if you do and nag if you don’t. Men don’t respond to that either.
Thank you Your Fellow Catholic and Ann!
It’s starts with the liturgy and the Mass. It was an absolute mistake to change the Mass. Will do down as one of the biggest blunders in Church history. The Novus Ordo Mass and Missal of Paul VI was not needed and one of the biggest reasons for the collapse of the priesthood and Catholic Church herself. The New Mass has done untold damage of the spiritual life of millions and millions of Catholics for two generations.
Asbury Fox, this is all true! I saw it happen! And the sad thing is– priests, nuns, and lay people, all must put up with whatever Rome decides! Many of them detested the banal, unholy, “ecumenized,” vernacular Mass of Bl. Pope Paul VI, in 1969– but were forced to put up with it, and with all the silly “novelties,” gradually introduced and forced on everyone, over the years! As time went by some people decided that the Vatican II style of Mass, and overall religious worship– was cheap, quick, and easy, little commitments involved, and besides– you and your family all can go to the “dumbed down” Mass, wearing jeans and t-shirts, and hardly be truly spiritual, at all! Whatever you want! Millions also fell away from the Church, sadly,over time! Today, many of those who say they prefer the New Mass, grew up after Vatican II, and are very used to the Novus Ordo! Getting people used to the New Mass, and to ridicule the old Latin Mass– is exactly what Rome had in mind– when they formally SUPPRESSED and forbade the Tridentine Mass, after the Council! Very sad! (But of course– everyone is entitled to his/her honest Mass preferences!)
I do not mean, in my above post— to insult those who are truly loyal Novus Ordo Mass-goers! It is also a wonderful thing, and a great blessing for some people — to have the Mass in a way one can understand, and in your own language! So, I do respect everyone’s personal feelings on this subject, and do not wish to hurt anyone! There are also many very fine priests, who say both the Novus Ordo and the Tridentine Masses– and they, too, have their preferences on the subject! Bless all our priests- we are lucky to have them! Regardless– Transubstantiation, Holy Communion– is the exact same, in both rites! There are some fine books by the British teacher, scholar, and author, Michael Davies, on the subject of Vatican II, and the old Latin Mass. One is “The Roman Rite Destroyed.” Some people might enjoy these books! Perhaps there are also some good books, on the spiritual benefits of the New Mass! Especially– because it is a great benefit for some, to have the Mass in your own vernacular tongue! Regardless– we all love and adore the same Christ, in the Mass!!
Linda Maria but you have insulted. The proper name is Ordinary Form. And there is no such thing as novus ordo church goers because the faithful go to Mass whether it be EF or OF. In your saying so is divisive and makes you seem grand. You will have to do better than flip flop, you insult the faithful by trying to sound charitable but we already know your views because they are seen throughout many articles here. You trying to mask something that can no longer be masked by you, unless you apologize, is insulting peoples intelligence. Yes some good comments you make and faithful but some are just plain unfaithful and disrespectful to those good souls in full communion with the magesterium, who are faithful, who truly love Jesus and His church, who fight the good fight regardless of your rude comments that degrade and try to discredit our good. You got yourself mixed up with those who spread schism and heresy and therefore we can not trust your sincerity. Regardless of what false assumptions you try to portray here, we love Jesus. Jesus we live and die for. Viva Cristo Rey.
Abeca– You truly are NOT QUALIFIED, to write anything here! You show yourself to be nothing but a stupid, ignorant BULLY– scribbling a bunch of hateful NONSENSE!! You will receive no more replies, to any of your ignorant “HATE POSTS!!” You are no better than radical ISIS jihadists, attacking everything in sight, ignorantly! You are NOT “Christian!” And God knows that!
Linda Maria its fine. I know its your pride speaking. I forgive you. Thank you, all for the glory of Jesus Christ, my Lord and savior. PS i mean it, just saying just in case you assume ill. Pax Christi
Thank you, Linda Maria, for this clarifying post that makes it abundantly obvious that your desire is to inform and encourage. Far too many who attend the Novus Ordo, and even TLM, do not really understand the whys and wherefores of how the Church has gotten to where She is today.
So much like offering a veil to a newcomer at the TLM, you offer kind direction and encouragement. Thank you on behalf of those seeking truth, growth, and understanding. Unfortunately, many are hostile at any instruction/genuine communication – or even an offer of help – that they almost look for offense. Why? I don’t know. If the focus were truly on the Mass, on Jesus, and on the Faith, then legitimate discussion and information would be well received.
God bless, Linda Maria. Enjoy your weekend.
Thanks, Ann Malley! You’re wonderful! Hope you have a good week-end, too!
I noticed in some of the earlier ‘letters’ that just because someone does not agree with Vatican II he or she is branded a ‘heretic’ or’ schismatic’. This may be a shock to learn, but Vatican II was NOT dogmatic; it WAS pastoral. In other words, one does not have to accept Vatican II. Because Catholics are supposed to be obedient, the changes are supposed to be followed. But if they are not, the person involved is not outside the Church. The council fathers agreed when having the council that it would be pastoral in nature. Had the council been dogmatic, very few of the documents would have been approved because of the unclear language and words which are scattered in all the paragraphs. To be a heretic or a schismatic one must publically and willfully deny an article of the faith. By just disagreeing with the Second Vatican Council, and admitting that there is vagueness and ambiguity in the documents of Vatican II does not excommunicate anyone, and does not brand the person a heretic, a schismatic, or someone outside of the Catholic Church.
God bless you, Fr. Karl, for lending much needed clarity.
Wonderful post, Fr. Karl! Thanks for taking the time, to write this excellent post!
thats nonsense. are you really a priest?
…the nonsense is you presenting yourself as Catholic, YFC. That is a “believing” Catholic.
father karl, please forgive me lack of capital letters. no disrespect. am recently out of hospital and can only use one hand to type. please explain what you mean. what parts of it do we not have to believe. why do some of the documents say dogmatic.
please give thanks to the lord and his mother and the cloud of witnesses for their help and care for a poor and wretched sinner. if he favors me with so many undeserved graces, there is surely no one whom he does not help and love.
God bless you this Anonymous. Your in my prayers. Get better.
thank you abeca
Father Karl there is a big different between not agreeing and what is actually happening here. I will continue to keep you in my prayers. Christ should be above all things but unfortunately He is not.
Yes, I am a priest. But I KNOW you are NOT a Catholic. You are a Protestant at best, and most likely an agnostic. Your middle name should be FORMER, and your last name, without changing the middle one, should be COMMUNIST.
Father, I’m so glad you share your faith and thoughts with us. I know I”m not alone when i say you add so many insights and truths to these discussions.
Father Karl, Dana is right. I am also so very thankful for your truthful and insightful contributions on CCD. I value the beautiful inspirational stories that you have shared about your hard working father and mother who both helped to early nurture, shape and foster your beautiful vocation as a faithful Catholic priest. What a testimony to the graces that flow from the example of good, loving and faithful Catholic parents. Thank you also Father Karl for your strong leadership on CCD and thank you for your faith-filled backbone. May God bless you and continue to richly reward you for your courage and loyalty!
I see that it is in YOUR religion to hurl personal insults at people you disagree with. Like a good McCarthyite, you hurl the epithet “communist” without any evidence whatsoever. You know that false accusations, detractions, calumny are all sins, right? And in fact, I am a catholic, practicing and church going. So please correct the rest of your tirade against me.
The reason why I question whether you are a priest is that you tell the faithful that they don’t have to “accept” Vatican II. This is hogwash. You must accept Vatican II as part of the teaching magisterium of the Church and it commands your obedience as such. You should also know that because the council was called for primarily pastoral REASONS, that in no way lessens the authority by which the Council Fathers taught. ALL ecumenical councils contain both pastoral guidance and dogmatic decrees, this one being no exception. Why do you think the Church fathers would author documents entitled “Dogmatic Constitutions” if their intent was not to teach dogma???
Among the parts of the CCD that you have violated is 891.
Saint Father Jacques Berthieu pray for us. We remember you on your feast day that is upcoming. France, feast day June 8th.
Your Fellow “Catholic”– Why do you call yourself such an absurd name— as you, yourself, are not in full agreement with Church doctrine and morals? Anyway, Fr. Karl writes beautifully, and correctly, on the subject of Vatican II!! There are theologians, who even today– worry about Vatican II ambiguities– for example, ecumenical references, of which we are all familiar…is the Catholic Church the only means to Salvation?? And– does the New Mass contain some errors, and ambiguities?? Etc. And why was Pope St. John Paul II, (now a big Saint of the Church!)– himself full of so many contradictions– such as, “Koran-kissing” at Assisi, declaring that his style of “love” and “humanism” was to be upheld, above all else, (above Church doctrine!) in priests’ and bishops’ pastoral practice… plus, ignoring many scandals, of clergy sex abuse, even high-ranking clergy, who were his personal friends! What of all this?? You should respect what Fr. Karl has to say– because he is correct!!
No, Linda Maria, Father Karl, like you, is a heretic in orthodox clothing. And by the way, Pope Saint John Paul never kissed a Koran. It is a figment of the catholic right’s imagination.
YFC– Everyone saw, on the news, the big inter-religious meetings, with Pope St. John Paul II, in Assisi! This is part of history! And everyone saw the Pope kiss the Koran! Newsmen asked him all about that! It was later ignored. You are really worth no further replies– your posts are a total waste!
…..if anything the hostility you receive here on CCD is proof of priesthood.
Thank you for standing strong, Fr. Karl. It’s not easy – but worth it :)
Yes just like Father Bob received.
Father Bob was invited willingly to discuss his views. I loved engaging with him. I still do. That is the difference here. Those with something valid to discuss, discuss and exchange views/ideas. Those who do not have anything to share call names, Abeca, and then begin beating, berating, and making pronouncements that are beyond their authority to make. You may be getting that from ChurchMilitant. (But keep in mind that attempting to be your own authority is precisely what you accuse TLM groups of doing.)
Please, feel free to call Fr. Bob back to CCD. I wish you would. For what you don’t seem to understand is that this ‘crisis’ in the Church is evidenced by the divergent views of priests and religious.
You also seem to entirely forget your lauding Fr. Karl when it suits you. That’s what’s so confusing, Abeca. Folks don’t know how to take your squishy opinions – they seem very personal, not Faith based.
God bless and try to enjoy the rest of your weekend.
Ann Malley i dont know know who Father Bob is, so I cant invite him but im sure if he is reading this, he would be pleased of your invite. Father Karl is wrong here to edify you in your schism but hey in our church our priests are humans with their personal opinions too.
Abeca, nobody can help you in the schism you have created in your mind that divides you from the truth. The truth is that you ascribe “schism” to others with no authority. And your presuming authority you do not have is precisely what you accuse others of…. that is why discussing anything with you devolves into your claiming holiness, the cover of Jesus, unquestioned fidelity despite your fip-flops, etc, etc, etc. (Perhaps you are just a die-hard schismatic, who has convinced herself that she holds more teaching authority than Holy Mother Church. You certainly behave that way.)
If you want to follow the Church and not create sins in your head that do not exist outside of your own “Un-official” proclamations, stick to what has been proclaimed. Not your limited interpretation.
To do any more is to attempt to overstep the Church. Something I don’t think you want to do, but actually “do” here every day. I understand you believe yourself to be doing good, but deleting rebuttals and shutting down accurate discussion as often happens on other forums when one steps outside the “my position”, not the Church’s official position, is not done on CCD.
That is because they are behaving as a Catholic “news” and “discussion” site, not a “take-my-position-or-I’ll-call-you-schismatic-till-it-sticks” site seeking to position themselves as the only game in town.
That said, yes, “Our” Church, that is the Catholic Church is in a state of crisis, Abeca. I’m glad you understand that.
God bless and enjoy your week.
Jesus Christ is my truth. Jesus is my life. Jesus is my everything. The only thing standing between us are those forces that seek to destroy His church, those who spread their schism and heresy within the church. But with God’s grace, He opened my eyes and Helps me remain faithful. So you can say what you think, im fine with it. Nothing shall shake my love for Jesus.
It gets old quite quickly when the liberal burned out hippies who offer their opinions here continually belittle conservative and traditional Catholics. They always yell charity, but practically never practice this virtue themselves. They are quick to offer criticism, but will seldom accept it from others. But then, that is a liberal, who rarely thinks, and only acts from emotions. They are the low informed readers of calcatholic. They could be called entertaining, but their mean spirited attitude quickly changes entertainment into torture.