….We seem to have lost our capacity to think and speak about “LGBT identity” without capitulating to it.
That certainly appears to be even more true today. Many examples of this capitulation, not to mention overt disregard for the Church’s moral teachings and understanding of the human person, are evident in recent remarks by cardinals, bishops, priests, and lay people. Here are just a few very recent examples:
• L’Osservatore Romano, the Vatican newspaper, published a preface by Bishop Francesco Savino, written for the book Via Crucis di un ragazzo gay [Via Crucis of a Gay Boy], authored by Luigi Testa, an Italian law professor. The book is categorized by the publisher as “Theology from the peripheries.” Bishop Savino, who has been the vice president of the Italian Episcopal Conference since 2022, stated: “We have a profoundly evolving understanding of sexuality, much richer, freer and more open than was given in traditional societies. Often as an ecclesial community we run the risk of fearing rather than welcoming whatever good can emerge from the relationships between people with their own and other people’s corporeality.” Denouncing “human slowness and prejudices” — apparently aimed at those who adhere to Church teaching on sexuality — he says: “The Church is either inclusive or it is not!”
• Cardinal Robert McElroy expressed his sensitivity to evolving understandings in a February 16th address given in Anaheim at the Religious Education Congress:
“It is essential to safeguard the deposit of faith. But how do the doctrinal tradition and history of the church restrict the church’s ability to refine its teaching when confronted with a world where life itself is evolving in critical ways, and it is becoming clear that on some issues the understanding of human nature and moral reality upon which previous declarations of doctrine were made were in fact limited or defective?”
Then, remarking on Fiducia Supplicans (“No change in doctrine was made”) McElroy says:
“It is wholly legitimate for a priest to decline to perform the blessings outlined in Fiducia because he believes that to do so would undermine the strength of marriage. But it is particularly distressing that the opposition to Fiducia in our own country focuses overwhelmingly on blessing those in same sex relationships rather than those many more men and women who are in heterosexual relationships that are not ecclesially valid. If the reason for opposing such blessings is really that this practice will blur and undermine the commitment to marriage, then the opposition should, one thinks, be focusing at least equally on blessings for heterosexual relationships. We all know why it is not: An enduring animus toward LGBT+ persons.”
This echoes his statement in a January 2023 essay: “It is a demonic mystery of the human soul why so many men and women have a profound and visceral animus toward members of the LGBT communities.”
• A few days before Holy Week, this bit of news:
The Catholic Church’s “established, dogmatic models of the theological approach to sexuality have become anachronistic,” a moral theologian told a conference on sexuality and culture at the John Paul II Pontifical Institute for Marriage and Family Sciences in Rome. Developing a new theological ethics of sexuality is “a task for the entire church community,” Salesian Father Ronaldo Zacharias, a professor of moral theology at the Salesian University of São Paulo, told the conference March 21.
And, yes, he also said that “in recent decades there has been a remarkable evolution regarding terminologies, concepts and descriptions related to sexuality…” Further, referencing the Brazilian theologian Augustinian Sister Ivone Gebara — a pro-abortion, neo-Marxist — Zacharias said that the church’s “theology of binary sexuality is no longer able to understand the complexity that we discover in ourselves.”
• There was also Pope Francis’s remark in his new autobiography, about same-sex civil unions: “It is right that these people who live the gift of love can have legal coverage like everyone else.” This echoed his remark in February, responding to continued controversy over Fiducia Supplicans: “I don’t bless a ‘homosexual marriage,’ I bless two people who love each other and I also ask them to pray for me.” (In case you didn’t know, those who are bothered by such things are “hypocrites.”) And there is Cardinal Mario Grech’s poetic utterance about same-sex blessings and the divide over FS: “I always imagine the Church as a rainbow, with the colors that are not excluded but, together, create harmony. A harmony that, of course, would be missing where there was a conflict.”
• And this list isn’t complete without the ubiquitous cleric of all things “LGBTQ+”: Jim Martin, S.J. In mid-March, he touted an essay by a fellow Jesuit arguing that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is not about homosexuality at all. The essay, not surprisingly, was posted on the “Outreach: An LGBTQ Catholic Resource” site, founded by Martin and operating “under the auspices of American Media, a Jesuit ministry.” The website routinely features articles with titles such as “LGBTQ Catholics need a queer theology of liberation” and “Why queer joy is vital to the church” and “I find God in my gay relationship. What does ‘Fiducia Supplicans’ mean for us?…”
From Carl E. Olson on Substack. Olson is editor of Catholic World Report and Ignatius Insight.
There is a reason why those who indulge in depravity need to stay at the peripheries of society, not at the center, lest they destroy it. But that is the Soros agenda embraced by the usual clerical suspects.
They’re soft because they want church teaching to change for personal reasons. Gays should not be ordained.
Hey, hey. Ho, ho. All things gay have got to go.
At the first whiff of gay in a parish or from a priest or a catechist or musician, or the first hint of softness or ambiguity about church teaching about gay morality, I leave and never return. You cannot trust them. Look at the ruin they have brought already.
I’ve left more parishes than I can count.
Let’s get back to the truth. That means you, priests and bishops. Why are the straight ones so afraid to oppose the gay mafia in the church?
I think I’m losing my faith in the church. Everything is crumbling, falling apart. Where is God? It’s hard to go to Mass now. I think I’m wasting my time and my life. My friends have quit the church. My siblings have quit the church. I’m the only one left. It’s lonely. It’s discouraging. It’s angering. It’s depressing. I leave Mass and ask why did I bother to go? I really need God to show me that he’s real and that his church is true. I’m so close to just giving up on it all.
Are you praying the Rosary? Are you reading Scripture? I always figure if Jesus can stay, I can stay.
Thank you.
And then what? Do you really think it is better outside the Church? We need everybody right now – don’t you bail.
Give him/her a break. I know scores of young people raised Catholic who go skiing or off-roading or mountain climbing or surfing or to football and baseball games on Sunday instead of going to Mass because they don’t think Mass is worthwhile. Families too. Those other activities are so much more fun and interesting to them. They say they have better things to do with their time than go to Mass. I can’t say I blame them entirely. Face it: Mass is boring in a lot of parishes because the music is awful or cheaply imitates pop songs, the homilies are irrelevant to real life, often boil down to “just be a good person,” and are poorly prepared; there’s nothing inspiring or beautiful about most Masses.
Young people can feel abandoned and lonely at Mass because almost everywhere they see only half-full churches whose attendees are 80% over the age of 65. They easily wonder whether they are alone and have thoughts about whether they should just join all their lapsed friends in doing fun things instead. And good luck trying to find a Catholic spouse in a parish.
Priority number one should be to get rid of the mediocrity in parishes. I’m sorry, but pastors need to fire musicians and catechists who do a lousy job. If priests are doing a lousy job, the bishop should have a word with them.
The church will continue to spiral the drain until it gets flushed down or until it wakes the heck up about its desperate situation and does something effective to climb out of the downward spiral.
People do not go to Mass for one reason.
They do not understand its value.
At my parish they have fewer and fewer baptisms, first communions and confirmations and weddings every year. I think there are three weddings this year. Definitely a dying church. Yes, the church needs everybody, but maybe already past the tipping point. People just don’t think the church is credible anymore. It’s very hard to be Catholic these days.
Here here. My parish had 11 first communicants total. That’s down from years past where there were over thirty. When I was a kid and made my first communion, there were over sixty that year. Anyone noticing a trend? I sure am. Who’s going to be left in the pews after another thirty years?
At St. Anne in San Diego we have the opposite problem! Too many parishioners for such a small place and the priests are super-busy with baptisms, weddings, communions, and confirmations. That’s what happens when you keep the faith!
I hope they can find a bigger place. It would be better for everyone.
Does your parish have a Catholic school?
If not, the kids who go to Catholic school will make their first communion with their class at the parish where their school is.
Remember…
…the Church herself is perfect
……her MEMBERS are fallen men and women struggling against sin.
The Church herself can never fail you even if countless of her members can…and, sadly, do.
Keep the FAITH!
This article is cherry picking things that are meant to upset you and turn you off of the Church. I can’t get to the full article so I can’t see if the author comes up with a resolving paragraph.
Let me resolve it.
None of this denies the Creator, the Redeemer and the Sanctifier.
None of this denies Jesus Christ is in the Blessed Sacrament.
None of this denies the Heaven that you will obtain if you are faithful and the Hell you will go to if you are not.
None of this denies the Devil, our only real enemy, who wants you to leave the path of Salvation.
All the reasons that you got Baptized are still here.
I hope the author notes how his words caused you to doubt and will never write such a piece again (or the person who edited it). They will be held accountable.
I found the article. It resolves with a call to chastity.
https://whatweneednow.substack.com/p/welcome-to-the-reign-of-gay-ecclesiastical
I think a lot of cardinals, bishops and priests would have a hard time eking out a living in the real world if they had to earn a salary on their merits. So much of the hierarchy has become as corrupt and useless as university administrators: people with cushy desk jobs disconnected from the real world because they have tenure and won’t be let go, no matter what ridiculous things they say. Why can prelates say things tantamount to contradicting Church teaching and still get to be clerics in high positions?
The next pope needs to be an enforcer. On day one he needs to declare infallible all these teachings that people are trying to change. That will settle it. Then he needs to fire anyone who won’t toe the Catholic line.
You have just taken the words out of my word processor! Well done.
If the next pope chooses the name Pius XIII, you know he means busines
“…But how do the doctrinal tradition and history of the church restrict the church’s ability to refine its teaching when confronted with a world where life itself is evolving in critical ways…” This claim of Cdl. McElroy of societal evolution is what moves the LGBTQ+ juggernaut to conquest. Evolution is thought of as 1. unstoppable insofar as it is in the nature of things, and 2. desirable, as it betokens the advancement of humanity just as in the physical realm higher forms evolved from lower. The Church’s old standards, like Humanae Vitae, crumble to dust in the wake of evolving society and its discovery of diversity, equity and inclusion, the new gods of this progression. The only response this reader can offer is to challenge the concept of evolution as applied by LGBTQ+ advocates to Catholic moral thinking. Is it evolution, or deception? St. Paul has timely words in 2 Timothy 3:1-13 especially. He speaks of imposters proceeding from bad to worse–exactly the opposite direction from that supposed by the princes of the Church quoted in this article. One can see why early in his pontificate Francis saw the need to gut the Pontifical John Paul ii Institute of John Paul II himself, and so set the Church in the direction we see today. Bishops like Bp. Strickland stand as obstacles to the new learning. These are difficult times but God has not changed nor has it changed what it takes to please Him. Let us never give up the battle, for God will not give up on us.
“…But how do the doctrinal tradition acoccund history of the church restrict the church’s ability to refine its teaching when confronted with a world where life itself is evolving in critical ways…” ….evolution is adaptation to the environment. It is not a measure of “progress”. If an environment is filled with pollution, organisms will be selected that thrive in pollution. An example of this phenomenon is the presence of the bacterium Deinococcus radiodurans, which lives in nuclear waste based on its enzymes which repair its DNA. But I don’t see anyone promoting the production of more nuclear waste as a good in itself. Then again, it maybe a matter of personal expectations….
” church’s ability to refine its teaching when confronted with a world where life itself is evolving in critical ways…’ But that is the question, isn’t it? Is “life” evolving? What do we mean by life? The context here is human sexuality. Are you to say that transgender individuals represent an evolutionary advancement? Or abortion — is this humanity’s finest hour in the effort to safeguard societal commitment to concupiscence? Is our obsession with promiscuity an evolutionary advancement? Do Drag shows in libraries bespeak evolution? How about pride parades? Christians losing their livelihood for not baking a cake? Is the grooming of youth life evolving in a critical way? You counter that evolution does not indicate progress, only adaptation. But a successful adaption indicates progress for those adapting. The Left is certain the LGBTQ+ cultural tsunami represents great progress because society is adapting to the new sexuality, so the two notions really go hand in hand with political culture in mind. Further, these same are convinced that the Church’s old rules constitute restrictive, inhuman ways of thinking, and thus the church is dying. But here too non-adaptation is linked to failure of the institution and its inevitable decline. So I fail to see the bifurcation between the notions of progress and adaptation in the context of evolutionary thought with regards to societal mores that you claim exists.
This is the Devil– the Father of Lies– the Ancient Trickster, with irresistibly superficial, deceptive, princely good looks– highly attractive on the outside, but rotten to the core, on the inside. He is the famous, age-old Prince of Darkness, luring, tricking, and deceiving humanity, in the modern world, with temptations to sin, and to turn away from the True God, to worship Satan. Worshipping Satan, people are seeking selfishness and laziness, babyishly desiring partying, ease, comfort and pleasure, power, money, popularity, sex, drugs, and all sinful things– which Satan falsely tells you are “good,” with all his horrible lies. And next— you end up being Satan’s addicted slave to power, sex, money, greed, selfish “me” — and all sins. He will entice you with his dazzling tricks, which he claims will lead you straight to ultimate happiness, power, babyish partying pleasures, and selfish, lazy comfort and ease, and untold riches, wealth, and fame, all for you– kicking and harming other good people, while selfishly seeking such evils– no moral conscience, the Devil rationalized and falsely “justified” all sins, with tons and tons of lies. And once you are dumb enough, lazy enough, and selfish enough to take the Devil’s bait— you will be delighted at first– but then, notice that his bait is poisoned, and you will suddenly scream and cry, as you are filled up with his poison– and succumb to an agonizing death, in the Devil’s murderous chokehold. Instead, Christ calls us to “die to self” and worship God Alone– pick up our Cross and follow only Him. He alone is the one and only true Way, the Truth, and the Life. Human society devolves into evil, when it finds deviant ways to glorify sin and be subjugated and infested by Satan. And next– the fallen society will be so poisoned, disordered and sick– morally, physically, emotionally and spiritually– that it will fall to pieces, and disintegrate– like what has happenned to many great cultures in the past. “Crime does not pay.” “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is Eternal Life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Roman 6:23)
Those who capitulate to lives of sin, have extremely immature, immoral, disordered, “me-oriented,” simple-minded, superficial, selfish thinking. They are miserable, and may not know it. The Devil has conned them all, with evil, smooth-talking lies, and glamorous deceptions. I recall long ago, when I was young, all the churches taught Christian virtue, and you were expected to live by it. People who were plain, average, everyday, practical-living Christians– all denominations– had balance to their lives, health, and peace. Peace of body, mind and soul. The Catholic Church used to preach about peace of soul, and how to live close to Christ. A strong devotion to Our Blessed Mother was very helpful. To lead a good and virtuous life, chaste, selfless, and devoted to Christ and Our Blessed Mother, is mature, and brings you peace of soul– the way God wants, for you. But to immature young people– maturity, virtue, selflessness, and chastity– can seem heartless— and hopelessly boring. They need the help of the Church to guide them to maturity– and a deeper, more mature understanding of life. Good mothers teach you sensible limits on things, guiding you to lead a good life, learning about and practicing virtues in simple ways, learning to obey God, practice self-control, and to care for others– and become a good and decent person, and a good and decent member of society. A good mother will say, “take just reasonable, small bites of things, and you will enjoy them. And think always of others, too. Enjoy a ride on the swings at the park– but then, after taking your turn, give the swing to the next child. Enjoy a small piece of Birthday Cake at your Birthday Party– and generously make sure that all the other children– your invited guests– get a piece of your Birthday Cake, too.” When you are old enough, your parents will teach you to have a little glass of champage at the New Year’s Eve celebration, or enjoy a glass of wine, at a dinner party– but always take it with food. Never be ill-mannered, never gorge yourself inordinately on food and drink. Never get drunk, never become disordered, slovenly, overweight, and sick, a social misfit– and prone to serious diseases, alcoholism, and obesity. Everything in moderation! Learn to control the sex instinct. Be careful on dates. Develop good habits of trustworthiness, responsibility, and diligence in schoolwork, and in all your daily responsibilities. You will have a good life, maturity, and peace. Avoid occasions of sin. You’ll be so glad you did! When you marry the love of your life, that is exciting and wonderful– but it is also a big, lifelong responsibility! Always think first, of your beloved spouse and children– not of yourself. Sex is a responsibility of Marriage. And you will see, lifelong– that good, mature married couples, busy with a full life, including children– spend perhaps 2% of their life in the bedroom. Living a good, responsible life, avoiding occasions of sin– like your mom, dad, and the Church taught you, at an early age— with love and obedience to God—- and you will have peace of body, mind, heart and soul.
1) Quote ” church’s ability to refine its teaching when confronted with a world where life itself is evolving in critical ways…’ But that is the question, isn’t it?”Unquote…agreed
2) Quote Is “life” evolving? Unquote…agreed
3) Quote What do we mean by life? The context here is human sexuality. Unquote. I disagree. The context is Catholic morality.
4) Quote Are you to say that transgender individuals represent an evolutionary advancement? Or abortion — is this humanity’s finest hour in the effort to safeguard societal commitment to concupiscence? Is our obsession with promiscuity an evolutionary advancement? Do Drag shows in libraries bespeak evolution? How about pride parades? Christians losing their livelihood for not baking a cake? Is the grooming of youth life evolving in a critical way? Unquote ..no to all questions here
5) Quote You counter that evolution does not indicate progress, only adaptation. Unquote …agreed
6) Quote But a successful adaption indicates progress for those adapting. Unquote…it is not progress but capitulation to evil, unless one believes thieves “progress” from poverty by stealing from others.
7) Quote The Left is certain the LGBTQ+ cultural tsunami represents great progress because society is adapting to the new sexuality, so the two notions really go hand in hand with political culture in mind. Further, these same are convinced that the Church’s old rules constitute restrictive, inhuman ways of thinking, and thus the church is dying. Unquote…they are mistaken on both counts.
8) Quote But here too non-adaptation is linked to failure of the institution and its inevitable decline. Unquote…again, it is a mistake to capitulate to evil
9) Quote So I fail to see the bifurcation between the notions of progress and adaptation in the context of evolutionary thought with regards to societal mores that you claim exists . Unquote.. ..Adaptation to evil is not progress by Catholic or any moral criteria. Advocacy of such capitulation is a counsel of despair.
Paul, let’s go back to your original statement: “…But how do the doctrinal tradition acoccund history of the church restrict the church’s ability to refine its teaching when confronted with a world where life itself is evolving in critical ways…”
The hot button issues seem to be the reasons given why the Church is losing ground these days. It is argued that the Church needs to keep up with cultural advancement–evolution if you will–and her failure to do so is her undoing. So I had to ask myself, where is the Church being asked to refine her moral teaching? On LGBTQ+ issues above all else. Throw in abortion since this is a central issue involving human sexuality. If you did not intend to convey this understanding, I would be glad to know what you did have in mind, and thanks in advance.
Quote The hot button issues seem to be the reasons given why the Church is losing ground these days. It is argued that the Church needs to keep up with cultural advancement–evolution if you will–and her failure to do so is her undoing. So I had to ask myself, where is the Church being asked to refine her moral teaching? On LGBTQ+ issues above all else. Throw in abortion since this is a central issue involving human sexuality. Unquote…I agree with this summary, and reiterate that “evolution” is adaptation to the environment, not a mechanism of “progress” or “cultural advancement”.
Sounds like a person who is trying to convince himself that his serious sinful behavior is all right, Sounds like a person who is trying to make something new and exciting when it is as old as the hills, and as unhealthy and soul destroying as ever. Every new generation thinks it “invented” sex and knows better than the past generations, but a person in the older generation who refuses to admit his mistakes and warn the younger, is truly headed to hell. and is trying to take others with them. Sounds like a person who cause of death will be covered up so people will not be scandalized, but the wise, like Solomon after he was jaded, will say do not follow in that man’s footsteps, or the same thing will be your fate.
This “Anne” post was my post. I apologized for this post if it seemed to be implying that Cardinal Grech was guilty of sexual sins himself, but someone chose not to post it. Perhaps they were confused by the difference in the poster names. I do not know enough about Cardinal Grech to imply such a thing. On the other hand, when anyone chooses to admit that homosexual acts are serious sins and want to change catechisms, as some have, it does send up a red flag that that person cannot be trusted on the moral issues.
Oh, good grief, I need to correct my post yesterday at 7:08 pm. The fourth line should read “when anyone chooses NOT to admit that homosexual acts are serious sins and wants to change catechisms.”
I am not a good typists on laptops. I only got on here again to make a necessary correction.
Dr. Ralph Martin of Sacred Heart Seminary addresses this issue as well. See the link below for Dr. Martin’s insight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INC7xn7x30A
I am blown away by his resemblance to Michael Voris. (Physical appearance)
Now here is a wise older man, Dr. Ralph Matin, who brings honor to the name Martin.
I don’t think he understands the Synod on Synodality very well and the 10 study groups he mentions are meeting before the October Synod. They present at the October Synod and give a final report to the Pope next year.
It is essential to safeguard the deposit of faith. But how do the doctrinal tradition and history of the church restrict the church’s ability to refine its teaching when confronted with a world where life itself is evolving in critical ways, and it is becoming clear that on some issues the understanding of human nature and moral reality upon which previous declarations of doctrine were made were in fact limited or defective?”
After the conclusion of the October assembly, Pope Francis pointed to a pathway for answering this question with his Motu Proprio “Ad Theologiam Promovendam.” In it, he calls for a transformation of Catholic theology so that it moves away from abstraction and ideology and towards “mercifully addressing the open wounds of humanity and creation and within the folds of human history, to which it prophesies the hope of an ultimate fulfillment.”
Such a theology is inherently pastoral, with theological reflection starting from “the different contexts and concrete situations in which people find themselves.” Placing itself at the service of evangelization, it seeks “engagement and dialogue in every sphere of knowledge, in order to reach and involve the whole People of God in theological research, so that the life of the people may become theological life.”
Such a pathway for theology must be continually nourished by the doctrinal tradition of the church. In fact, the theological pathway outlined by Pope Francis can itself foster greater authentic fidelity to the deposit of faith, not less, since it is embedded firmly in the real world where our earthly pilgrimage takes place.
A lot of people who do not seem to know the Bible very well talk about Sodom and Gomorrah as if it is only about homosexuality being bad.
There is nothing wrong with this. .
https://outreach.faith/2022/12/the-story-of-sodom-and-gomorrah-asks-us-to-consider-our-own-inhospitality/
Outreach is a pro-gay, anti-Catholic-doctrine website run by heretical Fr. James Martin LGBTQSJ. Don’t post that trash here.
But you can bear false witness?
It certainly does not seem very “hospitalble” to try to sodomize guests, which led to the final destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. The people of Sodom and Gomorrah were engaged in far worse things than having innocent fun all along. The words “orgies, fraud, thievery and murder” are more like it.
The title of the article is not great, I agree.
But there is so much more to learn from these stories than just “sodomy is bad.”
Genesis 18-19 gives us so much else to ponder.
Well, this takes the cake! President Joe Biden made the Sign of the Cross during a pro abortion rally on Tuesday in Florida, during a speech given by the Florida Democratic Party Chair, Nikki Fried. What do Catholic clerical leaders think of that?
Cardinal Grech’s comment about a rainbow church was not about gays.
It was about how it is OK for the African bishops to not implement blessings of gay couples.
“Nice” gaslighting, as if anyone on the planet can override God’s curse on homosexual acts. The African bishops need no permission from anyone NOT to bless same-sex couples.
I do not agree with Cardinal Grech on this and other things but it is not ok to lie about him or about someone who corrects those who are lying about him.
Asked specifically about the response of the bishops of Africa to the recent DDF declaration on the blessing of persons in same-sex relationships, Grech suggested that stark divisions on the Church’s moral teaching could be considered healthy, and that it is not necessary for the bishops or particular Churches in different parts of the world to necessarily think or even teach the same thing.
“There is unity in differences, there are common points and different spaces for various experiences, according to the ‘place’,” said Grech. “I always imagine the Church as a rainbow, with the colors that are not excluded but, together, create harmony. A harmony that, of course, would be missing where there was a conflict.”
I amend this to say it was not lying but making an implication.
Could you please post the Bible Book, chapter and verse where God curses homosexual acts. And what is the curse?
Genesis 19:14-16: Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13; Judges 19:22 and11:22; I Kings 14:24 and Deuteronomy 23:18 for starters. Some pagan cultures around Israel had temple prostitutes of both kinds and God destroyed those people because of it. It is also forbidden in the book of Jude and in the writings of St. Paul and other apostles in the New Testament. Some of the book titles and verse numbers are different in the Douay-Rheims. Does not matter as they all condemn such things,
Genesis 19:14-16 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who had contracted marriage with his daughters. “Come on, leave this place,” he told them; “the LORD is about to destroy the city.” But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.
As dawn was breaking, the angels urged Lot on, saying, “Come on! Take your wife with you and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away in the punishment of the city.”
When he hesitated, the men, because of the LORD’s compassion for him, seized his hand and the hands of his wife and his two daughters and led them to safety outside the city.
Read the whole chapter, or the whole chapter before it, this was just an excerpt. The men of Sodom wanted to Sodomize Lot’s guests, who unknown to them were angels. I do not need any more Catholic Bibles as I have several, and some Protestant ones, and they all condemn sodomy. Sodomy is a filthy, unnatural act. That body of the body was not constructed for such trauma.
The topic is not if sodomy is bad or sinful or has bad outcomes.
Or if it is condemned.
Or if its unnatural or filthy.
Or wrong or immoral.
That is not the topic.
Correction to last post, last line. “That PART of the body”.
Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, they have committed an abomination; the two of them shall be put to death; their bloodguilt is upon them.
Again, not cursed. Maybe we need to define what curse means?
What on earth do you think blood guilt is except a curse. In other words, they died in mortal sin separated from God unless they had repented and changed their llves but evidently they did not.
You are interpreting it.
I did find some curses in Deuteronomy 27-28.
If you interpret it as including Leviticus, you could make the general claim that all things prohibited bring a curse.
Judges 19:22 While they were enjoying themselves, the men of the city, a bunch of scoundrels, surrounded the house and beat on the door. They said to the old man who was the owner of the house, “Bring out the man who has come into your house, so that we may get intimate with him.
The men were Israelites, specifically Benjaminites. So obviously they did not occur the punishment prescribed in Mosaic Law. but there is no mention of a curse. It is declared wicked in the next verse.
What translation are you using? Could that be the difference?
Read all the excepts I gave you in their total contexts, chapters before and after. In Judges Chapters 19 -20, the Benjamite tribe was nearly wiped out because some of the men tried to rape a guest of an elderly man and ended up raping the woman instead. It caused a war between the offended tribe and the offenders — the Benjamites. It is in all the Catholic Bibles and the King James.
Judges 11:22 is They occupied all of the Amorite territory from the Arnon to the Jabbok and the wilderness to the Jordan.
Not sure why you cited this.
Deuteronomy 23:18 There shall be no temple prostitute among the Israelite women, nor a temple prostitute among the Israelite men.
The word curse actually appears in this chapter but it is referring to Balaam son of Beor and how the Lord turned his curse into a blessing. This is verses 5-6.
I gave you a thumbs down accidentally. The curse, of course, was on the those involved in temple prostitution — the pagans at that time. Evidently, no Israelites were involved in such things at that time, so Balaam could not curse them. That is a no brainer. Admittedly, different Bibles have different notes, sometimes contradicting each other. The ones in the New American Bible are not good for the most part.
Homosexual sex acts are immoral, in that sense they are condemned.
But are they cursed?
Cain was cursed. The fig tree was cursed.
So homosexual sex acts are forbidden, along with many other inappropriate sexual relations.
They are punishable by death in the Mosaic Law.
We live in the world after the Redemption which does not give us permission to sin.
We should not single out any sinners as worse than us.
We can and should admonish the sinner but we cannot add things to the Bible.
Stick with God’s Holy Word. If you do not know the Bible well, I recommend the Ascension Press Bible in a Year podcasts.
The Catholic Church has always taught that some sins are worse than others, and that sodomy is one of the sins that cries out to God for vengeance if unrepented. It is in all the official prayer books’ lists. Of course that depends on the age of the person, etc. The curse is the diseases, bodily injuries and death of the soul that happens to those who willingly engage in it. Some being more guilty than others.
It depends on the age of the person?
Common sense should tell you that a child who is molested or raped by an older person is not responsible. Children playing together improperly might not know any better but should be told calmly but firmly not to touch each other in an improper manner. Now I am sick of the whole subject, not going to discuss it any further.
In the Catechism, it states “the sin of the Sodomites” not sodomy is one of the sins that cry to Heaven for vengeance. No “if unrepented.”
I used a concordance to search for curse, cursed, curses and none of the references say what you are saying.
Please try to stick to what the Church actually says.
I know we all try to explain the faith and get caught in the trap of paraphrasing sometimes.
Whether you are a child or not, if you have been in a homosexual or heterosexual sexual “occasion” that was coerced or manipulated or extorted or any other condition that it was not your free will, then it is not a mortal sin.
Also, if you did not know it was wrong at the time, then it is not a mortal sin.
His statement is actually much more concerning that the article lets on. Just like when Cardinal McElroy was proposing that people might receive communion having committed grave sin, this has much larger implications than those who have their kneejerk freakouts about all things gay realize.
I am really unimpressed with Catholics who think they are faithful and can’t even understand the basics or do the basics of the faith. Stop being so naïve and stop sinning.
This is what the above article says: And there is Cardinal Mario Grech’s poetic utterance about same-sex blessings and the divide over FS: “I always imagine the Church as a rainbow, with the colors that are not excluded but, together, create harmony. A harmony that, of course, would be missing where there was a conflict.”
He says it was about same sex blessings and the divide over SF.
I added more detail to it and I am accused of gaslighting
I do not want to shame people but that was very unfair.
Accusing somebody who is telling the truth of gaslighting is gaslighting.
Bishop Savino in the mentioned preface:
Let no one, therefore, be scandalized by this via crucis: it is the way of Jesus who, wanting to love everyone radically and definitively, pronounced the least understood of the beatitudes: “Blessed is he who is not scandalized by me.”
I have read all in English. I cannot read Italian or get the article but I have to assume that all the “juicy” parts were translated and there is nothing there to be scandalized about.
I am really starting to wonder what is going on with people.
This is the blurb for the book translated into English:
The passion of Christ remains, for believers and non-believers, the most authentic and authoritative way in which the radical teaching of shared and universal love is realized every day. But the life of men is a tormented path and then the need arises to let that passion of love be narrated again, felt above all by those who perceive glances upon themselves not of love but of hate, not of salvation but of condemnation. This is the perspective of Luigi Testa, who places himself before the passion of the Lord, emerging from anonymity and stereotyped devotional formulas, bringing into meditation what it means to be homosexual in our time.
If the church becomes just like the world or changes to accept the sins of the world, then there’s no reason for people to want to be in the church anymore.
Salvation.
Everyone is saved, according to the current way of thinking.
You know better.
Because of some of the comments here, I am studying lying. Here is my potential insight (without naming names)
It used to be a truism that politicians lie.
They are easier to catch in lies now because of the Internet.
If a politician (who has been lying his whole career and gotten away with it) is elderly and lies, it might be attributed to dementia.
Based on your comment here, I am studying trolling.
I hear ya.
Why remain in the Church just to be scolded and harassed by a sanctimonious jerk about listening to the living magesterium of Pope Francis and be told that your desire for reverent liturgies causes division in the Church?
Why leave the Church because of it?
You gotta have something to offer up.
When I was young and immature, it was more difficult to remain in the Church. It gets better.
The desire for reverent liturgies is not the problem. The desire to celebrate the unreformed Mass, which Vatican II decreed be revised and which Pope Francis has said is to be phased out of use, instead of a reverent novus ordo Mass, is the problem. Implying that the pope is a sanctimonious jerk is uncatholic and uncharitable.
The problem is that the novus ordo Masses are not reverent. The Pope banned the Latin Mass. So people can not go to reverent Masses anymore. I was referring to the crazies that shout the loudest, scold, berate, and insult people on behalf of Pope Francis. For you to deliberately look for the most uncharitable way to interpret my comment violates Catholic teaching.
Maybe you need to be more specific and clearer in what you write in the future.
Mass is reverent. The Pope did not ban Latin Mass.
He did too ban the Latin Mass.
The Latin Mass Directory shows almost 500 venues of approved Latin Masses in the USA.
Most of those should be phased out within 2-3 years. The only TLMs left will be SSPX, FSSP, ICKSP, and St. John Cantius. No more TLMs at regular parishes by regular diocesan priests.
By order of Pope Francis, Latin Masses are not going to be celebrated anymore. Therefore, Pope Francis banned them. They are being very dishonest when they claim that Pope Francis did not ban the Latin Mass.
They show a lot of interest in playing silly word games. There is a lot of dishonesty in the Church today!
It is dishonest and wrong to say that Pope Francis banned Latin Masses.
I do not attend one but I could if I wanted to drive a half an hour to get to Mass.
I have searched on the Internet and cannot find any diocese that does not have a Latin Mass.
I checked every diocese in CA individually
Please stop putting false information on the Internet.
Pope Francis did not ban the Latin Mass.
.
The ban: “It is up to you [bishops] to proceed in such a way as to return to a unitary form of celebration… return in due time to the Roman Rite promulgated by Saints Paul VI and John Paul II.”
The TLM’s days are numbered.
They know that Pope Francis banned the Latin Mass. They know that sodomy is a sin. They are trolling this website.
Ban means to prohibit, which he did not do. From the document that “unitary form” quoted
In the Motu proprio I have desired to affirm that it is up to the Bishop, as moderator, promoter, and guardian of the liturgical life of the Church of which he is the principle of unity, to regulate the liturgical celebrations. It is up to you to authorize in your Churches, as local Ordinaries, the use of the Missale Romanum of 1962, applying the norms of the present Motu proprio. It is up to you to proceed in such a way as to return to a unitary form of celebration, and to determine case by case the reality of the groups which celebrate with this Missale Romanum.
Indications about how to proceed in your dioceses are chiefly dictated by two principles: on the one hand, to provide for the good of those who are rooted in the previous form of celebration and need to return in due time to the Roman Rite promulgated by Saints Paul VI and John Paul II, and, on the other hand, to discontinue the erection of new personal parishes tied more to the desire and wishes of individual priests than to the real need of the “holy People of God.” At the same time, I ask you to be vigilant in ensuring that every liturgy be celebrated with decorum and fidelity to the liturgical books promulgated after Vatican Council II, without the eccentricities that can easily degenerate into abuses. Seminarians and new priests should be formed in the faithful observance of the prescriptions of the Missal and liturgical books, in which is reflected the liturgical reform willed by Vatican Council II.
The final paragraph of your own words show that the plan is to eradicate the Latin Mass. People who want to attend Latin Masses are not welcome in the Church. People who want to attend sodomy pride Masses are welcome in the Church.
LGBTQ Catholics want their own Masses because they do not feel welcome. They want to join but, rightly or wrongly, they feel safer in a space that overtly welcomes them.
I do not think that is why people go to Latin Mass.
You are welcome. You just don’t want the product.
People go to Latin Masses because they desire to participate in the reverent worshiping of God. People go to sodomy masses to celebrate sodomy. People who attend Latin Masses don’t want to celebrate sodomy at the local parish.
“Gather us in, the gay and the lesbo
Gather us in, the trans and the bi
Give us a church where we can feel welcome
Give us a Mass full of rainbow delights.”
“Gather us in, the trad TLMers
Gather us in, the Catholic alt-right
Give us a church where women wear veils,
Give us a Mass said in Latin tonight.”
We don’t need these divisions. Any Catholic can attend any Mass.
“as a gay person who doesn’t necessarily feel like I fit into a strict binary between totally masculine or completely feminine, I feel like Latin Mass gives me the opportunity to forego all of the social politics involved with more contemporary services. The fact that Latin Mass is structured, so reverently and pointed, so wholly towards God, means that I can remove the things I struggle with in my sexuality and gender from the equation for just a minute and experience God in a way that I haven’t elsewhere. It’s not about me.’”
I think what you are saying is that you feel like you don’t matter to the Church..
Do you pray the 7s?
I was looking at the article on the disrupters at the Jesuit Q Mass and I wonder if 10 years ago you had told them that they would do something like that they might have said “Oh no. We would never be disruptive at a Holy Mass.”
This is how the devil works. He convinces you, in your self-righteousness and pride, that you are the Good One and those people are the Bad Ones. You end up sinning every time.
Eventually, it turns into those who you think are the bad ones are doing God’s Will and you are doing Satan’s.
Pray the Rosary daily (but not to disrupt a Mass.)
The article said they sang “All Are Welcome” at the Mass. Of course they did. That song should be banned, not because all aren’t welcome to attend Mass, repent, and profess faith in Christ, but because the song has become a propaganda anthem for accepting sin as good.
When LGBTQWERTY people sing it, what they really mean is “Sin Is Welcome”. I’m not kidding.
That is not what they sang.
It is a different song.
All are not welcome. People who attend Latin Masses are not welcome.
Of course they are.
Go to Mass and you will see.
They are not welcome to attend Latin Masses.
They do not want me to attend a Latin Mass. They say that I cause division in the Church by wanting to attend a Latin Mass. They consider me a troublemaker and want me gone. I am not wanted and welcome in the Church.
Who is “they?”
TLMers are welcome at any novus ordo Mass they want to attend. They might even get to hear “All Are Welcome” sung as the entrance song to drive home the point.
All are welcome is not reality in the Catholic Church.
People sing it because they wish it was true.
Gay and lesbian and bisexual and heterosexual Catholics who are not engaging in illicit sexual activity (or any other grave sins) are Catholics in good standing and may participate in all Sacraments. Gay, lesbian and bisexual and heterosexual Catholics who are sacramentally married and are not committing adultery or any other grave sin are also Catholics in good standing and may participate in all Sacraments.
“Gay or lesbian Catholics who regularly engage in sexual activity or are partners in a committed personal relationship or civil union which includes regular sexual relations are considered members of the Church living outside the boundaries of a chaste single life. They are free to participate in some but not all aspects of the Catholic faith community.
For example, if you are a gay or lesbian Catholic who regularly and intentionally engages in sexual activity, you may…
-attend Mass, but not receive Holy Communion or have a civil union recognized as a sacramental marriage.
-participate in communal celebrations of Reconciliation and, if you wish, visit privately with a priest in Confession about your spiritual life or your status in the Church.
-celebrate the Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick when in danger of death.
-have a Catholic funeral and be buried in a Catholic cemetery unless the bishop or pastor determines that doing so would cause public scandal.
-participate in the public spiritual and social life of the parish, but not serve in public ministries or leadership positions.
-have your children baptized and enrolled in a Catholic school or religious education program.
=serve as an official witness at a Catholic marriage, but not as a catechist, teacher, Godparent or Confirmation sponsor.
The Church is an inclusive community. We do not generally expect individuals to reveal personal information which is secondary to our common identity as sisters and brothers in Christ. As a gay or lesbian Catholic, you are always free to discern to whom and under what circumstances you wish to acknowledge your sexual orientation.”
Also applies to bisexual and heterosexual Catholics who are committing grave sin.
The portion in quotes is from Waterloo Catholic.
When gayness, queerness, biness, transness, or nonbinaryness are openly telegraphed and celebrated by means of rainbow flags, pins, hats, scarfs, and other paraphernalia, you know the person is at Mass to make a statement about you and the church needing to accept their queerness. When they are in your face about it, they are trying to intimidate you into accepting depravity.
I wouldn’t go within ten miles of a Mass celebrated by Fr. James Martin or by any LGBT group. They are queer schismatics.
I tell them straight — pun intended — that I don’t accept their depravity. The pope needs to be straight with them too.
We are not the church of niceness. We are the church of Jesus Christ. We are not the church of luv. We are the church of love, which must be properly understood to include truth and objective goodness, not the fake goodness of being nice and refusing to make judgments.
The church needs to man up, but I doubt any gay bishops and priests will be willing to do that. So it falls to the lay people.
It wasn’t a proper Mass. It was a misuse of the Mass for propaganda purposes that undermine true Catholic faith. Ignatian Q is a heretical movement that seeks to normalize gay sex and sex changes.
Bishops need to put a stop to the heresy and the scandal. Since they aren’t, it falls to courageous lay people to tell the queers that they will not queerify the Catholic Church.
The Sacrifice of the Eucharist as the central act of worship of the Catholic Church. The “Mass” is a late form of missio (sending), from which the faithful are sent to put into practice what they have learned and use the graces they have received in the Eucharistic liturgy.
As defined by the Church at the Council of Trent, in the Mass, “The same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross, is present and offered in an unbloody manner.” Consequently, the Mass is a truly propitiatory sacrifice, which means that by this oblation “the Lord is appeased, He grants grace and the gift of repentance, and He pardons wrongdoings and sins, even grave ones. For it is one and the same victim. He who now makes the offering through the ministry of priests and he who then offered himself on the cross. The only difference is the manner of offering” (Denzinger 1743).
The Mass cannot be understood apart from Calvary, of which it is a re-presentation, memorial, and effective application of the merits gained by Christ.
The re-presentation means that because Christ is really present in him humanity, in heaven and on the altar, he is capable now as he was on Good Friday of freely offering himself to the Father. He can no longer die because he now has a glorified body, but the essence of his oblation remains the same.
The Mass is also a memorial. Christ’s death is commemorated not only as a psychological remembrance but as a mystical reality. He voluntarily offers himself, the eternal high priest, as really as he did on Calvary.
There is more here…https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=34771
What is true Catholic Faith? Do you mean Real Catholic?
Doesn’t it bother anybody that the main promoter of this kind of thinking was a gay man who made millions and fooled thousands?
All of this is purifying.
The Church is doing what the Church has always done.
Read a good history of the Catholic Church.
I think that change or improvements scare people.
No one is saying that sodomy is not a sin.
How do you treat sinners?
A lot of times, not just with LGBT, but with others too, there was an idea that we need to not be nice to these people because of scandal.
But look at Jesus. The Pharisees complained when He was too nice to sinners but that did not stop Him.
I think a lot of Internet commenters are going through a kind of betrayal trauma.
We went through this in the ’80s with the annulments seeming to be given to anybody.
For people before my time, it was people marrying non-Catholics in the Church. Or having Protestant ministers co-witness the marriage or whatever they called that. Or just being nice to Protestants.
Every generation has had its changes and adjusted or left.
Learn the history of the Church. There have always been challenges.
Some great saints were made in those times.
Annulments are given to anybody these days. They are de facto Catholic divorce.
The day gay unions are blessed in the church is the day I stop being Catholic. The doomsday clock moved one minute closer to midnight with Fiducia Supplicans.
People here are talking about sodomy as if it is only a gay behavior.
Long before I knew anything about gay people, I knew about that. It was not called sodomy and it was not frowned on.
Many girls and women feel like they are expected to do that. If they don’t want to, they have to speak up.
Just say no.
1 All guests who present themselves are to be welcomed as Christ, for he himself will say: I was a stranger and you welcomed me (Matt 25:35). 2 Proper honor must be shown to all, especially to those who share our faith (Gal 6:10) and to pilgrims. 3 Once a guest has been announced, the superior and the brothers are to meet him with all the courtesy of love. 4 First of all, they are to pray together and thus be united in peace, 5 but prayer must always precede the kiss of peace because of the delusions of the devil. 6 All humility should be shown in addressing a guest on arrival or departure. 7 By a bow of the head or by a complete prostration of the body, Christ is to be adored because he is indeed welcomed in them. 8 After the guests have been received, they should be invited to pray; then the superior or an appointed brother will sit with them. 9 The divine law is read to the guest for his instruction, and after that every kindness is shown to him. 10 The superior may break his fast for the sake of a guest, unless it is a day of special fast which cannot be broken. 11 The brothers, however, observe the usual fast. 12 The abbot shall pour water on the hands of the guests, 13 and the abbot with the entire community shall wash their feet. 14 After the washing they will recite this verse: God, we have received your mercy in the midst of your temple (Ps 47[48]:10). 15 Great care and concern are to be shown in receiving poor people and pilgrims, because in them more particularly Christ is received; our very awe of the rich guarantees them special respect.